#they certainly have never considered that a lot of pro endos also have trauma

[sadtiredboy]

Too nice to endogenic systems for anti-endos. Too mean to anti-endos for pro-endos. I can never be part of a community lol

[system-failure404]

When I first saw this post I had a lot of ideas of what I could add on to this conversation, buuuuut now I don’t really remember them… Funny how amnesia works like that. I’ll try to remember what my “main points” were as best I can.

I’m not really sure where to start, so I guess I’ll just begin with my relation to the neutral label, and my recent confusion with it. These posts even highlight it some, because if pro-endo/anti-endo is defined by whether or not I believe endos exist, then I’m pro-endo. The human brain is super weird, so I don’t see why it couldn’t create alters without trauma. However, endo neutrals are later defined by their feelings towards endos, that they “don’t care”. And if that’s the definition we go by, then I’m still endo neutral? I’m in no way saying confusion over label definitions is why some or even any other endo neutrals identify that way. There is a common sentiment in neutral spaces that I used to strongly agree with that “I don’t know if systems can exist without trauma, I am not a psychologist, I can’t tell what’s going on in your head, and I don’t really care.” This, in my opinion, is undeniably neutral. My opinion has since evolved to “why wouldn’t our brains be able to do that?” but my feelings… almost apathy (?) towards endos has not changed. I could not care less what your system origin is, just be nice and I have no problems with you. However, a lot of pro-endos seem to be overjoyed about the existence of endos. There are LOTS of posts about how much they love endos, how much good endos do, how awesome they are, etc. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with this, it just makes me feel like this is a label I can’t use? Every pro-endo post I’ve seen is full of positive emotions and regards that I just… don’t have. I don’t care, but I am endo safe and I believe they exist, so am I pro-endo or endo neutral? When it comes to syscourse it can feel like two extremes of either loving endos or hating them, and I’d certainly rather love than hate, but I also can’t force emotions that just aren’t there…

I am pretty anti-syscourse. I feel like I had more to say about this and more of a connection to draw when I first saw this post, but at this point I have no idea what it was. I just think maybe wanting everyone to stop tearing each other apart about endos and taking a neutral stance could maybe be related somehow? Something to consider. (That said, I understand why endos and their supporters feel the need to defend themselves and I respect those who are willing to fight, as it were)

People having more important things going on in their lives to worry about than online discourse is such a big thing to highlight, especially in this community where many people are traumatized, and indeed potentially still being abused. I know when I first started learning about syscourse, I learned enough to come to my neutral stance, then set it aside and let it be for quite a while because I was still trying to figure out our system and adjusting to our new life. And as someone who doesn’t know any other systems irl (and is too shy to interact with others online 95% of the time…) the existence of endos just doesn’t really affect me. Like at all. (Although… harassment regarding my views of endos might affect us! 😱😰 We’re a baby blog and have flown under the radar so far, but we hear it happening to others!) So if I don’t spend a lot of time online, I don’t really have much of an inclination to form an opinion. Especially when way bigger things are happening to me. I hope this is something people keep in mind when thinking about endo neutrals. You never know what someone is going through.

Also, I agree with the endo-safe/not endo-safe bit. I saw a different post advocating their use and I am so happy these tags exist! I see people talk about being neutral but anti/pro leaning, and these tags give an easy way to convey that! I can’t recommend these tags enough, as it also takes away some of the fears endos have of not knowing if you’re safe to interact with.

I just want to end by saying a greatly appreciate this response. In a lot of communities with all kinds of different discourse, it’s very common to see people “villainize” (can’t think of a better word rn) those who are neutral or undecided on where they stand. Often if you don’t pick a side you are immediately seen as another bad guy. In certain situations I can see where this is coming from, but as someone who takes a long time to make up their mind, this blind grouping of everyone who is currently somewhere in the middle ground/undecided as bad is really hurtful. Sometimes it can feel like everyone is trying to convince me I’m evil for not throwing myself definitively on one side of every conflict I come across. So seeing someone who is not endo neutral understanding and defending our position is such a nice breath of fresh air. Honestly, from the bottom of our heart, thank you. I wish more people were understanding and compassionate to more “moderate” groups like this. Sometimes I just need more time/information to come to a decision.

(Sorry about the ramble, I just have a lot of feelings about this!)

Just wanted to say when it comes to endo neutrals, I really can't help but sneer at them because like... Even if they don't realize it, they're basically saying "I'm neutral to whether you exist or not". And you can't be neutral to the fact that we exist, you know what I'm saying?

Imagine if you said "I'm neutral to gays" or something. "I'm neutral to POC". Like I can't be the only one who feels that way right-

I do feel what you're saying, but I also understand the viewpoint of neutrals.

I very much see the "I'm neutral to whether you exist or not" part, which yes. It hurts. Because yeah, how can you be neutral on someone's existence? It's not exactly like we're over here both existing and not existing. I'm sure you're here, anon, because of my endo neutral post on how I don't trust them because they're an unknown, and I still stand by that.

But also, some people just... don't care. And maybe some people will claim I'm a bad person for this, but I respect that. There's things in life I don't care about. I think it's ridiculous to force a group of people who often struggles with dissociation, memory, and having a stable opinion on things to pick a side in admittedly niche discourse, especially since many of them are still in actively traumatizing situations. Sometimes people just have bigger issues in their lives.

I do wish endo neutrals would do research and inform themselves so that they can take a more definitive stance, but I also recognize that as an unrealistic ask. I think that instead neutrals should think about including the "endo safe"/"not endo safe" dichotomy when it comes to sysblr. Because one can be neutral, and still decide whether or not their post/blog is safe for endogenic systems to interact with.