#there's no way in hell this show is having the main character betray his brother to aid his stepdads murderer cuz his wifey said so | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

callmeklair · 1 year ago

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Hey, excuse me, but did you read this? https://www.tumblr.com/yuikomorii/738629974149496832/ok-i-didnt-want-to-go-this-far-but-at-this

I genuinely want your opinion about this post, because I totally agree with your post, and thought this other one was a bit rude.

(sorry for my terrible English, I hope I'm not being rude to you)

dw, english is not my first language too so it's okay also you are not being rude. and yeah just like I said some people hate the "overhype" not Ayato hit this Ayato stans still convert it into ayato hate and start giving various reasons to prove their point. just like in this post. it's like if we go through other boys' contents more deeply like they did with Ayato, then we'll also find a lot of growth, development and plus traits in other characters. but nah they just wanna paint it on Ayato.

if we talk about Ayato forgiving Cordelia because he still hoped she got her feelings reciprocated, then Yuma forgiving Reiji is way more major and heavy, because we all know how bad Mukamis' experience was. and if Reiji wouldn't have burned down his whole village, Yuma wouldn't have ended on city streets, with memory loss and then you guys know the rest. orphanage was one of the most terrifying hell for them because of the war (and it's sad how it was so true) yet Yuma forgave Reiji and even wished for his happiness with Yui.

Reiji also had one of the biggest developments. he was someone with ambition but ignored and cast aside by never receiving his mother's acknowledgement. yet after meeting Yui he grew so much like, in Shu's LE route, he literally sacrificed himself to protect Yuma because he was guilty and even though Yuma already said he forgave him a long time ago why he did it, Reiji said no matter how many times Yuma forgave him, it wouldn't rid him off of his guilt and past actions. also he:

this is not even his own route! but Shu's DF route yet look at my boy. proof that Ayato is not the only one who is compassionate out of his route. and same goes for Mukami brothers, be it Sakamaki, their own family or even Tsukinami's route they are compassionate and that's really a big deal because after what happened to them, they laugh at things like "humanity" because nobody showed them such yet look at them in later games.

In other words, yes there are many reasons for Ayato stans to make Ayato the main hero because Rejet said it so but please stop putting other characters in the background, casting them aside like they didn't have it rough and are NOTHING compared to Ayato's sufferings and compassion. all of them had different environment. even triplets, ayato, laito and kanato were mistreated differently. and Laito only pushed away Ayato because of what Cordelia did to him, and remember, among vampires there is nothing like humanity and compassion that's why Laito never expected anything from any of his brothers and pushed Ayato away too. ALSO AYATO SAID IT HIMSELF IN LAITO'S DF THAT LAITO HAD IT WORSE FROM CORDELIA.

Yes Ayato probably killed Cordelia to protect his younger brothers + also what she did to him, and I really like that about him. but that didn't mean other characters didn't do anything. Carla sacrificed Shin's eye instead of giving up on his brother's life even if it meant Shin will hate him for his whole life but at least that'll still keep his little brother alive.

Ayato realised Karlheinz is the root of evil, so did Shu a long time ago but everyone have their OWN way with dealing things, and Shu just wanted a peaceful life with Yui that's why he never tried to ever mention his father or tried to face him head on. it was difficult for Mukamis to accept Karlheinz evil because he was their saviour yet they still took courage and betrayed him for the sake of evil. Reiji likes his father but in his CL good end, even he was speechless and finally had enough of his father's Adam and eve plan, rejecting the throne and taking Yui away.

now if I keep going, this post will become endless so I'll stop now

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poptart-cat-78 · 1 year ago

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Favorite ouat character(s) and why?

Oooooh WHY would you ask me this?! UGH okay I guess I’ll list my top 5 OUAT characters

1.) Emma Swan

If you’ve been on my blog AT ALL you know Emma is a comfort character for me. Although personality wise Im nothing like her, I always found myself relating to her and her story, even if Im not an orphan or have had a toxic relationship. The story of an orphan girl who thought she would never be loved, never find her parents, always be abandoned becoming a woman with a family who would do anything for her, a son who brought her to said family and a man who sticks by her side through hell and back (literally) just 🥺🥺🥹🥹. The way she had walls around her to protect herself from being betrayed to opening up, learning to trust and learning it’s okay to be vulnerable. I just love her and her character arc, also she made me love the story of the Ugly Duckling. The things this woman went through, nobody deserves that, I just wanna hug her.

2.) Henry Mills

One of the two characters I’m most alike. As a child I loved fairytales and Disney and it’s why I was so drawn to this show when I first saw the trailer for it. Just like Henry, I want people to be the best versions of themselves but I know that’s not always the case. I believe in magic and have this very optimistic look on life (just like Snow as well). Also you really can’t have Emma without including Henry, they’re a package deal and the two main characters of OUAT. Also why do people find him annoying???

3.) Mary Margaret Blanchard aka Snow White

For similar reasons why I like Henry. I’m more like her than I am actually like Emma XD. I believe love is a powerful emotion, no matter WHAT kind of love it is. Like Henry, she believes in magic, is hopeful and optimistic, traits I also possess (but tbh I might have gotten those traits from watching the show for 6 years)

4.) Killian Jones/ Captain Hook

The first person to read Emma like an open book. The tension these two had in Tallahassee??? HELLO??? He’s an orphan, just like Emma. He was traded into slavery with his younger brother Liam, like WHO DOES THAT TO THEIR CHILD (looks at Brennan). He spent centuries trying to avenge the murder of his first love, Milah and that’s the kind of devotion Emma needed. He became a better man not just to win her over, but for his own sake too. He let Emma lead the entire way through their relationship and respected her boundaries, but stuck by her side through hell and back (yes, I used this term twice)

5.) Robin Hood

One of the two most devastating deaths in the show (the other was Hook but he came back to life so does his death really count?) He just had so much potential and Regina was genuinely happy with him. I like to pretend he attended CSes wedding because Im a 🤡.

Also yes I’m aware that I had deep meaningful reasons for the other characters, Im just salty about Robin Hood’s death okay?

Thanks for the ask @nerdy-girl3791! ✨✨✨

#personal #asks #nerdy-girl3791 #the poptart answers #ouat

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mdhwrites · 1 year ago

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Jumbled Thoughts: "I Want to Be Understood" is a Villain's Motivation

BIG caveat upfront: This is mostly talking about adventure/fantasy stories with general good and evil. Stories that, you know, have villains. Stuff like Komi Can't Communicate actually does this great as a main character's motivation but that's because the story is all about showing the nuance of understanding and what the effects of finding that understanding can do for someone.

When talking about good and evil, there's a lot of narrative baggage that makes using this for a hero difficult, to put it mildly. I will eventually talk about why it's so often used as a villain backstory/motivation and shockingly well even but let's first talk about the contrast of strengths in most fantasy works.

When one thinks of the bad guys, they think of an unstoppable, single force. A single man who can challenge whole squads of people and that is untouchable, even by the hero, until the very end. His generals can be weaker but they all still follow this where if you went toe to toe with them, you'd lose in a one on one fight.

That's the thing though, isn't it? Even villains with a hierarchy usually act independently. Villainy and evil are lonely pursuits which is why whenever even a duo of villains teams up for something, you either need to split them up before they can be defeated individually... Or bring in a TEAM.

This is where good's strength is. In most really good fantasy stories, you do have a leader but it's the team that is responsible for being able to handle larger threats because it's only through support and teamwork they can do this. This can be represented in a lot of ways, either through the lessons taught to someone, support from them for a new super form, etc. like that. Or, just straightforwardly having them all work together like how Power Ranger teams can only use their strongest attacks when united.

These are classic and they're classic for good reason and understanding and kindness is actually at the root of it. Most people believe that if you live a selfless, kind life and show understanding, you will find community and strength from allies. Meanwhile, if you are selfish, cruel or push people away, you must stand alone then. The loyalty of the team of the heroes versus how the villains betray and backstab each other is a classic payoff to this sort of thing where those kind deeds make sure they can count on each other while raw greed will see the villain crumple when they need their allies the most.

But it actually goes deeper than that. Just the basic structure of most stories makes it hard for a protagonist to have that motivation. Hell, Komi Can't Communicate is a story about a main character who wants to make friends and be understood by those around her... But she just as much shares that role of primary character with the person who understands her and sets most episodes into motion because someone has to actually, you know, talk to the other people and be who they rally around. That's just a part of structure more than anything.

And for those bonds... One requires understanding. At least to some extent. A hero's lancer might not understand them as well as the heart of the group or the like but for two people to see each other as peers, one must be willing to acknowledge something about them that keeps them around. It's why teams that claim to have selfish reasons for working together then turning into friends who believe in a joint cause are so powerful because you get to see that understanding grow and payoff.

Which... You know... Makes it kind of a problem if your main character's motivation is friendship and understanding. As a starting reason for them to enter the world, it can be worse but it can't be their driving arc or conclusion because, you know... Three seasons in, you might have them screaming "I WANTED TO BE UNDERSTOOD!" while their romantic interest, four friends, mom, second mom and adopted brother are all looking at them going "What are we to you, chopped liver?"

Because inherently in forming their team, they inherently had to find kindness, care and UNDERSTANDING from those people, especially if theoretically they're supposed to trust in these people. It's an inherent contradiction built into some of the most bedrock foundations of fantasy storytelling. Unless you want an anti-hero or try something with a really experimental style in the genre, you're not going to get around this fundamental problem.

Do you know who does though? Villains.

It's actually not even uncommon. The idea is that the world showed the villain so much cruelty, so much rampant abuse that eventually they stopped believing in compassion and understanding. Instead, they would enforce that understanding upon the world, either by enslaving it to their ideals, just destroying it all so no one can hurt another person, etc. like that. This backstory and motivation inherently means they never trust their lackies or see them as disposable because all that matters is the selfish motivation of enforcing their definition of 'understood'.

(Which, side note, is usually seen as toxic in general. Like any therapist worth their salt will tell you that you can't seek approval of others to make yourself matter. It is one of the most negative ways to seek validation because you are always going to question if people approve of you enough and theoretically be pushed to change yourself for the sake of others. Speaking as someone with Avoidant Personality Disorder where my brain assumes everyone hates me and I'm always failing literally regardless of ANY evidence to the contrary.)

This is often used for a sympathetic backstory to a villain who then has a chance at the end when the hero, extending the same hand they did to their team, shows understanding to them. They can finally falter and take the hand that says their ideals were wrong or they can reject it, unable or unwilling to change their beliefs and commonly dooming themselves in the process.

It's powerful, classic stuff for the fantasy and adventure genres and it's been that way for a long time. Not to say it can't ever be subverted or messed with. A lot of side members to a party might deal with racism, bigotry, etc. like that because then they do want to be understood and have to deal with the pain of ostracization while also having the party leader be there to give them a rock. Potentially, the hero can show early signs of what may come with the villain by turning potential enemies into allies earlier on like this.

But you need to understand why the classic formula exists before you start rearranging elements to fit a new story. I hope I've given some food to thought, or even inspiration, and see you next tale.

======+++++======

I have a public Discord for any and all who want to join!

I also have an Amazon page for all of my original works in various forms of character focused romances from cute, teenage romance to erotica series of my past. I have an Ao3 for my fanfiction projects as well if that catches your fancy instead. If you want to hang out with me, I stream from time to time and love to chat with chat.

And finally a Twitter you can follow too!

#original writing #jumbled thoughts

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idv-ask-the-showman · 1 year ago

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Hear me out- mirror world but Phineas x Laurence having this gay tension but at the same people don’t know if they are arguing or are they kissing bc they look like a divorced couple sometimes— (also, hide this from Pins-)

INDIENOENOWNW THEY WOULD XD— Me and Pins actually talked about them and GOD they are the kind of rich angst/sad ship trop for real✨

Here are some fact I don’t think I mentioned before about them but since you give me the chance to talk about those two then I shall now share them:-

1.Random Facts!//

Laurence has a pocket mirror that he cherishes so much. Why, you may ask? … Well, in the pocket mirror, there is a picture of him and Phineas together long before the creation of the mirror world, where Phineas is still happy and bubbly, having his genuine smile drawn all over his face. Laurence, at this point, forgot Phineas’s smile and how it looked like that, even in his own memory. They always seem hazy, so the picture is the only thing that can remind him of the good old times of them together before everything went downhill.

This idea is from Pins, and in her words, "Laurence actually had a questionable love and care for Phineas in that AU, but he still needed to rebel against him for everyone's and Phineas’s good," and I AM ALL IN FOR THAT!

I like to also imagine that Laurence actually wanted to confess his feelings to Phineas on the same day Flynn sadly died but couldn’t since... Well, we all know why...

Although he couldn’t confess back then, at one point in one of the cycles in the story, he did confess to Phineas before he died, and Phineas was shocked about that. So ever since that cycle ended and a new one began, Phineas made sure that he wouldn’t harm or kill Laurence at all after that. Laurence may not remember the last cycles and how he confessed his love, but Phineas did, and he felt conflicted about it.

In the first ever rebellion in the timeline, Phineas didn’t take kindly to Laurence’s betrayal; he thought that Laurence would never betray him given their history, and therefor he would be loyal to him no matter what, only to be backstabbed by him, which angered and saddened him. After that, he created Lawrence and made it so Lawrence is by nature loyal to him no matter what, although you can tell that he only did that to ease the pain of the betrayal by giving Lawrence a smilier name to Laurence.

Still, despite all that has happened so far, they still care for each other; such as when Phineas had another one of his episodes by remembering his brother’s death, he would break every mirror around him with anger and sadness, and nobody could stop him but Laurence, who would pull Phineas into a hug and comfort him, knowing so well that Phineas wouldn’t push him away or harm him.

[Spoilers to the story ending] In the end of the story with the main canon ending, Phineas and the mirror world no longer exist as if they had never even been part of this world, while the rest of the characters are sent back to the real world and have a better life than the one they had before coming to the mirror world. All of them don’t remember Phineas at all. except for Laurence, who does not only remember him but also remembers every single cycle that happens in the story, showing how their bond was stronger than anyone thought, to the point Laurence is able to remember him despite everything (a Madoka Magica moment, lol).

2. Songs that me and Pins thought may Suit them//

The Way I Loved You - Taylor Swift

Hurts Like Hell - Fleurie

My Goodbyes - Jorge Rivera

I Love You Like An Alcoholic - The Taxpayers

#the circus of mirrors essence #News Reporter // Laurence Godfrey #the showman phineas #phineas smith #identity v #identity v oc #identity v ask blog #idv #identity v hunter #ask blog #ask #identity v survivor

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ginjusttalkaboutnothing · 8 months ago

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@onewingedsparrow

Unfortunately, I was only able to get through once ALBW because my brother crashed my 3DS (RAVIO BEST BABY!!!!!)

I still want to find a way to replay this part.

And after that, all I could do about Zelda was read about it. And, how happy I was when I got a brand new Swich with BoTW in 2019! It was a new breath of fresh air for me!..... But I still miss ALBW. That game holds a special place in my heart. And when I started going through ALTTP.... God, my emotions were unbelievable. Seeing the places... I literally cried.

But. Since you gave me the go-ahead to talk about the four swords, listen up.

I... Damn it. I really love absolutely everything about her. I love that they made Red emotional and soft, although more often than not it's the other way around, because red is the color associated with aggression. Man, Red is an incredible bun who I love(as much as anyone else), and honestly.... I feel a little sad that I so rarely refer to him in my text. (I'm sorry, Red. But one day, I promise! Your big moment will come!)

Blue stood out to me as a sudden character as well. And to be honest... Hell, yeah! He's adorable! This is one case where the character is flashy, but there's a special charm to it.... Oh, and their fight with Green over Elne... So ridiculous and funny, but shows them off so well... I'm straight... I can't! It's just too beautiful.

Oh! And I absolutely love the moment when Red found Blue frozen in the ice. "I thought it would be best for him to stay like that for a while..." Man. I love Red. A bun is a bun and sometimes so cocky.

Green is the main character, which makes sense. I love the fact of his growth from an egotistical lone hero to someone who knows how and can fight on a team alongside others. I like the realization that he started to think differently towards the end.... That's great.

And now we move on to my two arguably favorites.

Let's start with Vio. Best. The best boy. I'm truly convinced that his betrayal was deliberate and he was already thinking about how to further take out Shadow from the beginning. Really, as time went on... Okay, no. My headcanons are my headcanons, they don't have to crawl in here.

But yeah. When Shadow called him 'friend', some tension was evident on Vio's face. I like to think that in that moment, his confidence in needing to kill Shadow shook. And, hell. His whole plan, and the way he learned the information, wormed his way into his confidence, "killed" Green... Damn! He's unbelievable!

And I also parallel myself with him because of his rather cold (in life) disposition, unemotional nature, and love of reading.

Oh, and Shadow, where would you go without him. Arguably the one who got the best developmental arc. Literally from villain to hero. How proud I was of him when he, after betraying Vio, still helped them, literally at the cost of his life... He cannot be underestimated. He's a hero who CHOSE this path, and man. He deserves to be happy...

And their dynamic with Vio... I've written so much on them already. And there's more to come. They are what keeps my mind captive for now, and I can't say I'm against it. Because they're beautiful.

And "the legend of amour"? Why...?

Me.

#amour reblogg #amour wanna talk!#tloz

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destieltaggedfic · 2 years ago

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Canon Divergence - Part 8

Human Connection - 3tuxedocats Ao3

Set Pre S1. Benched by John for stuffing up a hunt, Dean travels around and decides to explore his sexuality. Along the way he meets Cas, who he connects properly with and takes the opportunity to go back to him, whenever a hunt takes him to the area. Eventually the way Cas treats him shows Dean the problems in John’s treatment of him.

Word Count: 21k Non-Graphic Sex

Father Knows Best – DarkHeartInTheSky Ao3

Set S8 AU. In the wake of Dean and Cas returning from purgatory together and something more than they were before, everything is going well until John Winchester turns up alive. Not trusting that Cas isn’t a danger to his boys, he plots to get rid of this supernatural creature, not expecting that the brothers won’t give him up so easily.

Word Count: 81k No Sex

I'll Keep It Through Tomorrow – stratiotis Ao3

Set S10 AU. When Dean killed Cas during their fight, he disappeared, isolating himself in a small cottage. Sam has tried everything to find him, and his last ditch attempt is to bring Cas back to life to help him. But Cas isn’t about to betray Dean’s location so leaves Sam behind to find Dean himself.

Word Count: 43k Graphic Sexual Acts

A Hero of His Own Story – ioascc Ao3

Set S6AU. On one of Chuck’s alternate earths, Sam and Dean weren’t the main characters. The apocalypse was handled by another pair of brothers and Dean runs into one on a hunt. When he gets injured, Tim Wesson calls for the angel that raised him from hell to heal Dean and then Castiel starts turning up on Dean’s hunts.

Word Count: 27k Graphic Sexual Acts

Burning the days – temporalranger Live Journal

Set S4 AU. Early in the apocalypse Dean thought ‘fuck it’ and made a move on Cas. Cas discovered he had the ability to get Dean to do one thing without argument, have sex. They were fine with this until Sam stuck his nose in. Now Cas is on the run from heaven and the Winchesters are on the run from the feds.

Word Count: 25k Graphic Sexual Acts

#destiel #fic recs #canon divergence

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goodieghostyarchive · 3 years ago

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I am completely redoing the band au, both because I got some new ideas a n d the art is old. Fair warning that this au does get heavy. So yeah, warning for: drugs, alcohol, transphobia, rape, abuse-none of these will be heavily depicted, just mentioned and talked about, and it's better to be safe than sorry

So I'm just gonna jot the ideas down here so I don't forget.

Roman, Patton, and Logan are all in the same band. Remus was originally in the band as well, but left to make his own. He and Roman and their artistic differences and all, as well as Remus feeling as though he was the "back up twin living in Roman's shadow" while growing up lead to the split.

Patton and Roman are childhood friends, Patton joined the second Roman mentioned it. He's always supportive-because he didn't get any support at home, rip. His family did not support him coming out and misgender him even now. Because they're trash.

Logan is that gifted child whose parents pressure into maintaining perfect grades and appearance-and he did so. Until the second the last lecture for the day was over. Man pulled one hell of a Clark Kent and no one realized that the quiet, reserved scholar was also that "flirty goth guy with the resting bitch face". Until Roman found out. And now he's in the band. And now he's finding out that his parents don't actually? Mind how he dresses or acts? So his "act of rebellion" is leaving him with an identity crisis and he doesn't know what to do

Roman-golden child could do no wrong. Social butterfly. All he wants to do is make music with his friends. So busy trying to make people happy that he doesn't realize he'd become a doormat. Very popular around town. Needs to learn to take time for himself, he doesn't have to be everyone's "hero"

Virgil is an enigma. He moved into town to stay with his older brother Remy-after his horrible ex boyfriend outed him as trans to his parents when he broke up with him for stealing his songs-and for manipulating and gaslighting him. Virgil no longer feels comfortable showing his face in public for fear of his ex showing up out of the blue, and so wears a face mask and keeps his hair in his eyes. Main character lookin ass. He loves music. But everything with his ex has left a bitter taste in his mouth.

Remy, Virgil's older brother and fellow "black sheep" of the family. He owns the local music shop and lives in an apartment right above it. He is narcoleptic and has a service dog named Java. Keeps an electric drumset in the backroom just for Virgil to jam out on

Janus and Virgil were friends, until Virgil moved to be with Drake-Drake being the now ex, and had been isolating Virgil completely-when Virgil moved back he didn't find out until he went to buy new guitar strings and saw him at Remy's shop. Janus has always had a crush on Virgil, by the way. They picked their friendship back up from where they left it and things were going great-until Janus went to a party out of town and suddenly Remy is forbidding Virgil from talking to him again. Virgil eventually gets Remy to show him why. There are pictures of Janus and Drake being v e r y close being posted online.

The next time Janus tried to talk to Virgil, he blew up at him. Virgil had confided in him about everything Drake had done and he felt betrayed. What he didn’t know-because Janus couldn't get a word in-was that Janus had been drugged and can't even remember that party. So, yeah. Janus hasn't had his best friend to talk to about something traumatic that happened to him. Fun. He does go to therapy-but it still hurts that Virgil wouldn't hear him out

Remus has tried to join and start so many bands, but they've all been dead ends. Until he met Janus. Now, they're more of a duo but aw well. Who caaares. They mesh well and have been making quite the name for themselves at underground events. Remus still misses his brother-but he's not going back to being in his shadow when he's got his own gig now. Virgil did play with them for a few shows until the fallout with Janus-still keeping his face covered, of course.

Drake is a manipulative, gaslighting, narcissistic asshole. No redemption arc. He has no sob story. He's an asshole just to b e an asshole. He gets a kick out of making people suffer in all kinds of ways. He does not want to change. He's a foul being and if he were real I would throw his ass in a pit and fill it with broken glass and lemon juice

Roman, Logan, and Patton all share the same apartment. Logan's family is uh, very well off and insisted that they pay for the apartment. They gave him an allowance that he never used out of spite and stuck in a savings account while he earned his own money and finishes up college

Roman volunteers everywhere he can in town, while still working part time at a bookstore.

Patton is saving up for top surgery and works all sorts of odd jobs. Mainly dogsitting. He loves animals.

Virgil has online courses and has slowly started to post song covers while never revealing his face.

Now! Onto the Dr.lamp lol

This is going to be a harem. Virgil in some way or form accidentally manages to make all of them fall for him. And he's completely clueless. Because of course he is

Janus already has a crush on him, Virgil finally hearing him out about what happened and apologizing for his behavior towards him helps them bond

Virgil and Patton bond over shitty parents and Virgil helps him to realize some things that really weighed Patton down. Afterwards, Patton is incredibly happy to express himself

Roman spreads himself too thin one day and Virgil takes care of him-even though he didn’t have to. He could have just dropped him off at the apartment but no, Patton and Logan were both out so Virgil chose to stay and look after him. Roman hadn't had anyone go out of their way for him before and the crush started there

Logan, drunkenly, laments about not knowing who he is anymore. And Virgil helps him figure it out, albeit in a smartass way. "Well that's easy, you're Logan." "Yes-but who is Logan?" "Whoever you want him to be."

Virgil convinces Remus to have a talk with Roman. Helping him with his family stuff and helping him realize that he isn't anyone's "back up" really seals the deal.

Virgil will one day admit that he hasn't actually seen his face in a mirror since he started testosterone-a year or so after he started wearing the mask-and doesn't even know what he looks like anymore because it's been so long. Like, four years, maybe. No one pressures him into taking it off, by now they all know the reason why.

But he feels safe around them, so he does. And it's a nice moment. Very sweet

#drugs #alcohol #transphobia #rape #abuse #goodie talks #urnthebanders au #sanders sides

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grandinventor · 3 years ago

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i really like the loyalists- i find them really interesting. havelock, pendleton, martin. talk about them and your opinions and what went down, i like hearing what you have to say

Oh you are right on time because I am just replaying the first Dishonored and even though I am halfway through I know the rest and I got my memory refreshed on their personalities. I really love the Loyalists honestly, they are in a way both terrible and absolutely compelling characters. I can only talk about Low Chaos because I've never played High Chaos to analyze them there. Thank you though, for giving me the chance to ramble about them now, don't mind if I do~

Havelock - I just realized he has a name now because I was googling to make sure it's spelled with an E. Anyway, not many people do, but I like Havelock. He is a bastard but he is very much convinced what he is doing is for the greater good. They did well in portraying him being a bit older and more traditional than Corvo and the other Loyalists, which is both good and bad. He has this almost tunnel vision loyalty and dedication to his cause, he likes being in charge and since we are stationed in the Hound's Pits Pub, we are on his territory and it feels like it. No matter how much he praises you, you know he is not gonna let you or any of the others challenge his position. And I like that we do see some of his temperament, like him tossing the Audiograph in the sea might seem like a comical moment until you look back on it and realize he grew frustrated with it one too many times and did something rash. You can also see through his journal how he is slowly growing more frustrated when he realizes you won't let him control Emily and you (I say you as in Corvo) are far too dangerous to be controlled. In the end I think he confused his need for power with his loyalty to the Empire because in his mind him getting this power was the best for the Empire. And in Low Chaos he realizes that he doesn't have the hands on the wheel and he can't go against these waves and kind of surrenders, albeit after he has done a lot of damage. Havelock greets you like a serious, controlled and even warm and welcoming older man, but you learn that beneath that there is a very frustrated and paranoid person who is loyal only in words but is willing to betray everyone to achieve what he thinks is right. There isn't a lot of Havelock meta because he isn't as interesting, but he still played his role quite nicely in the story and you don't always expect characters like him to betray you, especially next to characters like Martin and Pendleton. But, then again a salt and pepper haired war veteran switching sides in the third act is a pretty common trope so eeeh I should've seen that coming. Martin - Martin was my fav when I was 16 and also one of the first times a character I liked died in anything, it was really heartbreaking. I kind of forget he dies these days because I follow like 10 Martin fans, so he is alive and well. I like that he isn't doing the whole "I'll be High Overseer because I have to, it's for the best" (cause they could've gone that route), he straight up reads Campbells gossip book and is like "Hell yeah, I am going to blackmail so many people." Also I like his intro scene because as you approach behind Jasper (the other Overseer), he sees Corvo and becomes somehow 10 times more cocky (I think the line that's something like "It isn't so bad, except I miss your wife" is so raw I've been quoting it all week). But if you play Low Chaos he feels more sidelined, he comments here and there about things here and there that show a bit of his laid back attitude and it's that High Chaos ending that really brings forward most of his personality than just his arc ending in being poisoned at a table (I do not like the Low Chaos ending, like even if they died it's a bit anticlimactic). But there is a lot of good Martin meta out there, from my 10+ Martin lover mutuals, however in general I really like the concept of a priest with a dark past because in the context of him betraying you, it feels like he never truly escaped that dark past, he never really changed, he just got better in convincing people he is a better person, including himself. And the fact that he seems so chill and laid back, yet hides something terrible makes me wonder how much of what he said was honest, and how much was him having a silver tongue and bringing your guard down. Also I don't take criticism but criminal turned priest is extremely sexy and I love that trope.

Treavor Pendleton - (gets a full name from me here), I gotta admit I didn't like him when I was 16 because I expected him to turn out evil, he looked like the "I will backstab you" trope, but now that I am older I kinda like him a lot more and even feel bad for him. I feel like Havelock was crazy and Martin was a shady dude, but Treavor just went along with them because he is both very cowardly and very envious. I know it's not disclosed but I do feel like he wasn't the mastermind behind it? Maybe High Chaos says otherwise, but I haven't played it to know. For someone who was so brutally abused by his older brothers his entire life and yet still found it in him to love and mourn them, he would absolutely go with whatever Havelock and Martin would say, either out of wanting to be part of something or out of some kind of deep seated fear of not playing along. This doesn't absolve him of what happened at all, but it is An Explanation, and paired with his excessive drinking, it does make me feel bad about him. He is also an asshole in funny ways like the whole situation with his Audiographs and also Lord Shaw and he is sort of an unintentionally (or maybe intentionally) funny character. I found that he is relieving the more tense feeling you get from Havelock and Martin with his presence which I enjoy more than I did when I was younger. Also he has a lot of typical aristocrat asshole things going on, which is funny mostly, sometimes a little infuriating.

I would like to talk about the rest of the Loyalists too (because Callista, Lydia, Cecelia, Piero and Wallace are also Loyalists even if not the main ones), but you asked for these three and it's getting late. Perhaps I will because I actually love the ladies and they don't get nearly as much love as the male characters in this game.

#i dont wanna tag this because its like 2 am ramblings i didnt put much thought behind #havelock #teague martin #admiral farley havelock #treavor pendleton #there #that's his name #i got it

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silenceinternalmonologue · 4 years ago

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A Review of Loki (2021)

[The following is an exact transcription of Twitter user @/diolesbian ‘s thread linked here . They gave me permission to cross-post their thread on my Tumblr. Keep in mind that this review is fairly long and quite critical of the series. I agree with this review wholeheartedly, and would be welcome to discuss it with anyone else.]

Loki is a character who has died many times, but his own series may be his most brutal character assassination yet.

1. Loki’s role in the series. Instead of tackling Loki's most villainous state of mind in Avengers 1, the series literally speedran through his development in the subsequent films, after which they almost entirely halted his character progression.

Because this series was set right after Avengers 1 it had the responsibility of developing Loki further in place of The Dark World and Ragnarok. In Episode 1, this development was kicked off by having Loki watch a reel of some of his defining moments in the MCU, allowing him to see his future all the way up to his death in Infinity War. Sadly, this scene ended up being the most development he received in the entire series. And arguably, this isn’t even true development but more like a speedrun of his character up until that point, serving as a simple tactic to explain why he wouldn’t be acting all dictatorial and murderous during his own series. As soon as he had been made “good” (read: docile) enough to follow along with the plot, his agency was completely thrown out. From that point on, the series wasn’t about Loki making things happen but about things happening to Loki.

Loki was supposed to be the main character, but he wasn't the protagonist in this story. In fact, he was more of a side character than we’ve ever seen him be in the MCU before, perhaps excepting IW and Endgame.

A protagonist is by definition someone whose important decisions affect the plot, whose development is followed most closely by the audience, and who is opposed by an antagonist. Loki exhibited none of these traits in this series. Especially the latter half of the story, he was reduced to simply reacting to the revelations around him, such as the reveal that the TVA members were all variants and that Kang was the true mastermind behind everything. He never truly involved himself or acted based on any of these plot points, and hardly played a key role in what was supposed to be his own story. Even in the films, where Loki is a side character, he makes choices which impact the plot to a larger extent. He almost seems more like a background character in the role of protagonist than in the parts he plays in the films.

2. The antagonist. The TVA could have worked as the perfect setting for Loki to have a new arc. It’s a thematic antithesis to who we know Loki to be. But when this Loki turns out to not be who the audience thought he was the TVA’s thematic significance falls apart as well.

In Episode 1, the TVA’s Agent Mobius enlists the help of Loki the Variant to pin down a greater foe who we are told is another, more malicious version of Loki. Order and chaos meeting in the middle, teaming up to take down an enemy, who even happens to be the protagonists’ literal evil self: that works, it sounds promising. But this dynamic is soon undermined when Loki leaves with Sylvie. Still, the benefit of the doubt is easy to grant here: a story about tricksters is bound to contain twists. But by Episode 3 the series is halfway done and the TVA has been appointed as the main antagonist again: we’ve now established villains three different times. And then the Cloud Monster At The End Of Time is introduced, and finally Kang. In other words, the Loki series has no consistent antagonist, no one to pit its main character against. And this is where we once again miss out on an enormous aspect of Loki’s potential characterization.

Protagonists are always defined by an antagonist, whether a purple Titan, a flat tire, or themself. Loki is not given anything to define his morals, motivations, or development in opposition to and this is a huge oversight. Especially given the fact that Loki has taken on the villain’s role in the past: how is the audience supposed to know that the “bad guy” is now a “good guy” if there’s no “even worse guy” to stand up against?

3. The plot. A plot should show off its MC’s strengths and match their personality. The Loki plot hardly relied on his presence at all, he didn't play a key role. The story had so little to do with Loki that it seemed as though he has barely any impact on “his” narrative.

One of the most central conflicts in the Loki series doesn’t involve him at all: it’s between Sylvie and the TVA. This plotline was a good concept overall, but its main problem is that it’s practically the only conflict in the series. Loki himself, as mentioned before, isn’t set in opposition to anything or anyone. And thanks to his relationships with Sylvie and Mobius being weakened by conflicting storytelling devices, he appears to be in a bubble by himself away from the rest of the cast for much of the story. First he follows Mobius around, then Sylvie, then he wanders aimlessly in the void before following Sylvie once again and learning that Kang is a Really Bad Guy who he should be opposed to even though by this point he has interacted so little with the story unfolding around him that the audience doesn’t even understand why he should be choosing to play the hero.

The plot and the characters both suffer by being so incredibly unrelated to each other. A series, especially an MCU one, should tell an overarching narrative through the perspective of its main character.

In the beginning of the series, when Loki was still getting his bearings in the TVA, this lack of decision-making was more understandable, especially since some of his skills were still being shown-- he discovered Sylvie was hiding in nexus events, and he made the choice to leave Mobius and follow her. But by the latter half of the series he still hasn’t had much impact on the story or taken any actions of his own, and simply allows plot points to happen to him. Just because the Loki series had to introduce the TVA and Kang didn’t mean it had to forgo telling a story about its protagonist. If Loki’s story had been intrinsically tied to the overarching plot points, if his choices had been some of the primary factors determining how events ended up taking place, the series would have succeeded in every aspect. But instead Loki is pushed aside by the plot of his own series, a plot which subsequently ends up coming across as largely hollow and pointless due to its lack of character drive.

4. Loki’s arc. One of the main reasons MCU Loki is loved is for his excellent character development across his films. TVA Loki was extremely lacking in that aspect and chances to take his character in interesting new self-aware directions were thrown away without much thought.

Throughout the MCU, Loki is on a journey with many highs and lows. He goes from a bitter and disheartened prince standing in the shadow of his brother, to a self-loathing Jotun bent on destroying his own people in a desperate attempt to win his father’s love, to a half-mad partially mind-controlled dictator with delusions of grandeur fueled by his own insecurity, to a prisoner wondering what there is left for him to lose, to a savior of Asgard’s people finally coming to accept his place in what is left of his family, to a tragic sacrificial victim who knew he had to die so the true hero might live on. That’s a hell of a journey, incidentally shown in less than TWO HOURS of screen time, and the prospect of TVA Loki embarking on an equally stimulating one, this time told over the course of over four hours and shown from his own perspective the entire way through, was exciting. But as it turned out, this relatively simple expectation went completely unmet.

For a story trying to say so much about individuality and self-acceptance, the Loki series seemed to pass by every obvious opportunity to tackle those questions.

Sylvie’s introduction seemed like a good idea at first: Loki would be able to literally bond with himself and learn to accept who he is that way, and forays could be made to explore what Loki’s personality could have been like if he grew up under different circumstances! But aside from a scene or two in Episode 3, this was not how things ended up going. Loki didn’t come to any grand or important conclusions about his identity, he didn’t choose to act differently, all that happened was a vaguely-worded confession of pseudo-romantic feelings which was cut off in the middle, made no sense, and weakened the narrative in a whole host of other ways explained elsewhere. Loki’s encounter with other versions of themself in the Void was similarly meaningless: Loki didn’t end up expressing or demonstrating a single thing he learned from meeting all of those alternate selves, despite the fact that there was potential for massive self-discovery there.

Less than 2 hours of MCU screen time portrayed Loki more coherently than this entire series. Loki is loved because of how much he changes, and it felt like he didn’t in this series. He started off lost and stayed that way throughout the entire plot.

By the end of the series, it was impossible to identify who Loki had become. He said he didn’t want a throne, but it was not obvious why not. He looked sad to be betrayed by Sylvie, but never expressed what that meant to him. He seemed afraid once Kang was unleashed, but why? Why did he care about the Sacred Timeline? What were his motivations? Throughout the series the answers to these questions became less and less obvious, culminating in the final episode which ended without a single moment of reflection or explanation as to who Loki had become. He wasn’t a villain, but only because he wasn’t murdering people. He was in some capacity a hero, for… being against Kang, probably, but once again with no explanation as to why Loki had decided to feel that way. He never seemed self-assured in his heroism, as if he hadn’t chosen the role for himself. Again, making one’s own choices that shape the narrative are what differentiates a protagonist from a side character, but Loki did not do that in this series.

5. Loki and Sylvie’s relationship. Loki and Sylvie had the potential to be a powerful duo representing the process of self-acceptance but instead they were reduced to a strange pseudo-romance.

Despite Loki’s many developments in the films, he never truly liked himself. He has been known to act extremely confident and self-righteous at times, but this is merely the opposite side of the coin containing his self-loathing and insecurity. Having him literally meet and subsequently befriend himself in Episode 3 was a move towards developing this aspect of him and potentially teaching him to finally accept himself as he truly is, but this buildup was all shattered in Episode 4 when the relationship is portrayed to have romantic undertones. Instead of a powerful struggle to accept oneself, the relationship between Loki and Sylvie becomes a twisted thing which is memeable at best (selfcest LOL amirite?) and outright damaging to both characters and the very concept of loving oneself at worst.

Ultimately, Loki and Sylvie's relationship didn’t add anything to either character’s development and actively detracted from what could have been a touching story.

Romantic love is extremely different from self love; romantic love has connotations including dating conventions and sexuality which are impossible to ignore and in this case serve as a distraction. And on top of ruining a potentially powerful storyline, this strange relationship makes both Loki and Sylvie seem out of character. Loki is once again one thousand years old and he has never even had a true friend, so why would he possibly fall for someone after knowing them for only two days? Meanwhile in Sylvie’s case, Loki’s “feelings” for her cause the audience to pay more attention to her romantic life and gestures rather than her actual character and motivations.

6. Loki’s Sexuality and Gender Fluidity. Loki’s sexuality and gender has been shown in several comic runs, and the series was advertised as featuring this representation as well. But due to several fundamental errors and problematic storytelling this also fell flat.

Sylvie’s introduction filled many fans with hope regarding the portrayal of Loki’s identity. In the MCU neither of their LGBT identities had ever been touched upon, while the series introduced a female variant of Loki and explicitly stated their sexuality. But this portrayal soon unraveled, most notably in Episode 5, in which many other Loki variants were shown but not a single one besides Sylvie was non-male. On top of that, when TVA Loki mentioned Sylvie and referred to her as “a woman Variant of us”, the other Lokis agreed that that sounded “terrifying”. Why should a genderfluid being be afraid of a version of themselves presenting as a different gender? It read as both fluidphobic not to mention strangely sexist.

The pseudo-romance between Loki and Sylvie only aggravated the situation. Not only did the nature of the “relationship” seem to follow heteronormative storytelling tropes (falling in love after a couple days of knowing each other, one party being reduced to a love interest, valuing romantic love above any other type, etc) but it also seemed distressing and offensive to many genderfluid people. A romance between a male and a female Loki, one of which doesn’t even call herself by that name, seems to be implying that an individual becomes someone else when merely presenting as a different gender, which of course isn’t at all the case. The writing wasn’t necessarily malicious here, but it was certainly ignorant and potentially even harmful. The opportunity was there to translate Loki’s powerful comic representation into the framework of the MCU, but this attempt did not succeed.

7. Loki’s characterization. Loki is a chameleon, but there are certain traits fundamental to his character. These traits were either ignored or actively mocked in the series. The audience already knew “what makes a Loki a Loki", but the series threw that knowledge away.

Episode 1’s premise of stripping Loki of everything he is used to was an intriguing setup to ensure the discovery of the core of who Loki truly is. The only problem was that this truth didn’t end up being found at all. Mobius made fun of Loki’s most defining traits, such as his habits of lying to manipulate people and acting out of a place of insecurity, which seemed to be a signal for the narrative to forbid Loki from exhibiting any of those traits from that point on in any way. This reduction in Loki’s character was reflected in everything, from his lack of humor (in the films he’s even funny while he’s taking over the world!), the underpowered way in which he fought against Sylvie (he’ll use magic to dry his clothes, but fight with a damn vacuum cleaner?) to the way that he wore the same boring outfit in every single episode-- it may sound shallow, but clothes are important when presenting a character. Every one of Loki’s looks in the films said something about him and his state of mind, and sadly that bland TVA outfit seemed to convey that Loki really was nothing more than a subservient pawn in what was supposed to be his own story. Ironically, the writing stripped Loki of everything that made him Loki, and left us with nothing but a Jotun-shaped void to be swayed by the whims and wills of the characters and plot devices surrounding him.

8. Loki’s past and abilities. This series could have elaborated on aspects of his character which had been teased at in the films and theorized about by fans, but ended up being a disappointment in this aspect as well.

Aside from Loki’s characterization and development, something else the series ignores is much of his canon story in the films. Since Thor 1, a truth that always overshadowed Loki was his Jotun heritage. He struggled with it up until the time of his death, clearly visible in his relationship with his foster family. It’s understandable that Loki was supposed to be independent from Thor in his series, but that’s no excuse for completely ignoring this central part of who Loki is. It doesn’t matter how much he goes through or how much his circumstances change, this feeling of unbelonging sits deep in Loki’s core and should have been both explored and explicitly discussed in the series. A series all about Loki was the perfect opportunity for him to finally confront and explain his relationship with his heritage, and potentially come to terms with it as well. And this isn’t even to say how cool some more insight on Loki’s Jotun inheritance could have been-- hypotheticals aren’t the point of this review, but it would have been fascinating to see Loki reacting adversely to heat like he has been hinted to in the past or even using his ice powers like he did in Thor 1.

Loki's magic was tragically underused. It felt like he was stripped of all of his magical powers even after his TVA chains had been removed, and this was never explained.

A second huge oversight is his magic. His powers are all over the place in this series. They were always a bit vague in the films, but this series was the opportunity to set that right and explain exactly what Loki was capable of as a sorcerer, especially now that the MCU has embraced magic more than it had ten years ago. But instead, Loki showcased an inexplicable lack of magic use-- again, the vacuum cleaner fight can be presented as evidence. There is a single scene in which Loki says that he learned his magic from Frigga, but no information is given as to how much he learned or why he doesn’t always favor spells. His power levels are incredibly inconsistent (he forgoes using magic when first confronted by the TVA, but is later shown using telekinesis to save himself from being literally crushed to death). And, strangest of all, there is a scene in which he tells Sylvie that he “can’t” enchant living beings. Loki, the millennium year old Trickster sorcerer god, who can hold an Infinity Stone with his bare hands, reanimate Surtur in the Eternal Flame, and trick the average person using illusions with ease, can’t cast a little enchantment? And if so, why not? The series offered precious few explanations concerning Loki’s magical abilities and instead only raised more questions. And in this way, Loki is once again relegated into the background and left with not a single shred of any new characterization or development.

Loki contains multitudes, but the series reduced him to two dimensions.

This isn’t to mention every other facet of Loki’s story that could have potentially been explored to great success in this series-- his torture and subsequent partial mental influence at the hands of Thanos just before the events of Avengers 1 is one obvious example, as is his youth on Asgard, as are his suicidal tendencies (people don’t tend to survive falling off the Bifrost, and he knew that when he threw himself off of it), plus infinite other facets of him. Of course, it was both necessary and more interesting for this series to be its own story rather than one which lingered on past films-- but that’s not to say that none of these plot points should have come back, at least subtly, to play a role in this story. Plot points exist to be brought back later, not completely ignored. Otherwise a story may as well be written about a completely original character.

#loki #loki 2021 #loki disney+#loki discussion #loki discourse #loki spoilers #lokius #loki x mobius #loki x sylvie #sylki #marvel #marvel discourse #loki review #mcu loki #loki series #loki season finale #loki season 1 #loki ship

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scintillatingshortgirl19 · 4 years ago

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Loki’s Line About Betraying Everyone

I need to talk about this line (spoiler: I’m not happy about it). I was going to just include this in the full episode response post I’m working on, but it got long enough that I decided to make it its own.

First of all, here’s the full quote: "I betrayed everyone who ever loved me. I betrayed my father, my brother, my home. I know what I did. And I know why I did it. And that's not who I am anymore."

Y'all, I'm less emotional about it now but this line fucked me up when I first heard it. It hit me like a ton of bricks while watching the episode for the first time because I was actually doing fine and wasn't significantly bothered by anything up until that point, and then came that line and I suddenly almost felt physically ill. I actually wrote up a post about it that night but never posted it because it was essentially just a lot of screaming, so I've now taken pieces of that and formed a hopefully more coherent post (though it still contains a good amount of screaming). So, I get that the idea that Loki’s betrayed Thor over and over is a Commonly Accepted Thing. It's really a lot more complicated than that, and there are a lot of gray areas involved, but fine, I'll give them that one. But - when did Loki betray his father? When did Loki betray his home?? I’m not just mad about it, this is...a legitimate question. I mean with the father thing, I guess the only thing could be the nursing home in Ragnarok/taking the throne from him? Which is irrelevant anyway because this Loki didn’t do that and doesn't even know it happened in the main timeline?? And besides, it PALES, like, hilariously, in comparison to any one of multiple things Odin did to him before that (not counting any fanon here - just the canon things that we know of!) I am just so confused, especially about the betraying Asgard thing. WHEN? LITERALLY WHEN? Guys, there is no film in which that took place.

If I trusted the narrative, I would say the most logical thing to conclude - at least about the betraying Asgard part - is that this is a setup for Loki to later realize he actually saved Asgard by causing Ragnarok (because that's the closest thing I can think of to "betraying his home"), which could even tie into something about, idk, helping him realize he’s capable of being a hero? (or something) and it would be a good follow-up to the moment he found out about Ragnarok in episode 2, but...fuck, the way these lines were framed it really doesn't feel like anything like that is going to happen. I could be wrong, but these just didn't strike me as lines that are at any point going to be contradicted or even revisited.

And moving onto another part of the quote - "I know why I did it." Uh, I guess good for Loki for apparently knowing that...but the audience sure doesn't?? This is something we're just now being told and have not been shown at all?? I have a feeling Loki thinks he knows why but it unfortunately doesn't have anything to do with some of the biggest actual reasons, which are the abuses done to him that helped make him who he is. Even more unfortunately, I also have a feeling the creators are on roughly the same page as Loki here. So yeah, that's a real shame.

The core problem here seems to be where the writers are coming from, and @iamanartichoke worded it really well here, so I’m just going to quote her: “either the writing is being lazy by oversimplifying Loki’s motives, or it’s being deliberately misleading in order to retcon the character, or the writers genuinely believe that’s what happened, which implies a misunderstanding of Loki’s character kinda from the get-go - at least on what drives his villainy and what fuels his anger, which are pretty significant things.” I do think there’s a slight chance they were using Loki as an unreliable narrator here and the audience was supposed to pick up on the subtext (more on that at the end of this post), but I doubt it, and I think it’s very likely one or more of the options listed in the quote.

Honestly, I can explain Loki's line about betrayal (and his general lack of acknowledgement of his own trauma/legit grievances against his family) pretty easily in-universe. It makes sense that Loki himself would frame things as him betraying everyone who's ever loved him as if they never did anything to wrong him first, or that he would try to ignore what Thanos did to him in favor of putting all the blame on himself (coping with his trauma and loss of control by denying it). Or hell, maybe he would even straight up subconsciously invent a betrayal that never even happened, like the one about his home. I can totally understand Loki seeing the events of his life that way! That all lines up with his complete lack of self-worth, and to have him 1) recognize his mistakes and take responsibility for them (which has happened at this point in the show), but then progress on to 2) realize he isn't solely to blame for literally everything, and 3) recognize the role of his family and others in understanding why he is the way he is - that would be a very satisfying arc and is the natural direction that the story should take in episode 6. The problem is, I don't think the show is going that way. I think we're either supposed to take it at face value that Loki did in fact betray everybody who ever loved him (as if Loki is a reliable narrator when he's most certainly an unreliable one), or the audience is supposed to figure out that Loki's an unreliable narrator here - but the latter won't work, because the creators have to follow through on that subtext at some point and actually do something to indicate that what Loki said wasn't 100% true, and it doesn't feel like they're going to. You can't expect your audience to put any weight on subtext or even pick up on it in the first place if you never actually confirm anything, and your audience won't know your narrator is unreliable unless you tell them. If Loki being an unreliable narrator in that specific moment was their intention, only a small subset of fans are going to pick up on it. So the way they're framing it so far, the audience is simply going to see it the same way Loki does and not realize it's incorrect.

Unfortunately, as stated earlier, I think the most likely explanation is that the writers either don’t understand Loki, are being lazy, or are deliberately retconning. So while I take a degree of comfort in the in-universe explanation, it’s pretty damn infuriating to consider where the writer’s minds were probably at in reality, and how this set of lines is presenting Loki to the casual audience.

Tagging @iamanartichoke and @delyth88 if you guys have any thoughts?

#loki series negativity #loki spoilers #loki tv series #loki meta #loki series speculation #kind of #journey into mystery

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mittensmorgul · 4 years ago

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As Above, So Below

I’m still trying to pinpoint exactly why the focus on “heaven is fixed and actually a paradise now!” is just so deeply unsatisfying to me. And I think I need to preface this with a bit of backstory about me, because I think that gives the rest of this essay some relevant context.

I know this isn’t relevant to my main point here, but this is a metatextual and thematically identical example of the exact thing I’m gonna lay out, because context is always helpful. So please forgive this seemingly irrelevant detour, because I promise it will be relevant by the end.

(plus, would it really be an Essay By Mittens™ without at least one baffling tangent? no, it would not!)

Tangent time!

I think everyone that follows me knows how skeptical I was... or should I say how WARY I was of the way Eileen was returned to the narrative this season. We were warned in the PREVIOUS EPISODE how much Chuck was attempting to interfere in their lives. I was accused of some very nasty things, of hating the ship, or hating the character of Eileen, or of hating Sam and not wanting them to be happy. No amount of pointing at obvious warning signs in the text, no amount of yelling about Sam’s God Wound or the absolute klaxon warning that the wound had become “quiet” and his Chuck-O-Vision Nightmares had apparently stopped seemed to matter. I was declared “wrong” and told to shut up.

And then 15.09 happened, and basically everything I’d been wary of was shown to be what actually happened, but there were still unresolved issues. Eileen doubted her own feelings and walked away. She doubted what was actually real. And at the time, I said many times that I would be thrilled to see those issues resolved by the end of the season, and for her to truly know that what she’d felt growing between her and Sam was real. And by the end of the season, despite my personal horror at her previous situation (and having that personal horror compounded by the fandom literally gaslighting me and attempting to bully me into ignoring this basic actual plot detail of this specific growth process which... in the context of what my personal objection was to accepting her return at face value in the first place having been personal trauma associated with gaslighting and manipulation...) by the time 15.18 aired, I was 100% convinced that Sam and Eileen had fully chosen each other, and felt the traumatic pain Sam suffered during that text conversation with her during the snap. She NEEDED to come back, because she had been set up to be part of Sam’s Win. They were clearly each other’s future.

The show literally put in all the work to make even *me* feel this to be True and Right and Good. And then after that point we never even hear Eileen’s name again. We never were told that she was even returned at the end of 15.19. Sam, who had been so entirely devastated by her disappearance in the previous episode that he couldn’t even process it was apparently hit with an amnesia hammer and just... never even thought about her again through a long greyscale life with a blurry baby Dean factory vaguely in the background of a single scene of his life. I can’t credit or justify how after an entire year invested in making us all truly care about Sam and Eileen and the happiness they found in each other if only the cosmos would allow them to choose each other in the end would just... erase all of that in the series finale.

Which brings me to the second tangent, which is specifically about *me,* and how I feel about the cosmic order in the television show Supernatural. Because I feel a lot about it. Probably more than most people ever did. And this is also important to understanding the main underlying point I need to make here.

Something I’ve been most looking forward to, for YEARS, about Supernatural eventually ending someday was writing a book, or a thesis, or even just organizing and compiling all my observations into a cohesive narrative specifically about the cosmology of the Supernatural universe. I’ve been cobbling together my observations and realizations about the nature of heaven, hell, purgatory, the empty, the alternate universes we’ve seen, and yes, even the cosmic function of the mundane level of the story as told by events that transpired on Earth. So of everyone watching this dumb show for the last 15 years, I don’t actually know anyone who cared more that I did about finding a satisfactory resolution and transformation of every plane of existence-- the mortal world AND the “afterlife realms” we’ve experienced on this show. And in the wake of the finale, I feel cheated out of that. Because in the end, it wasn’t about the triumph of free will and a flip of the script, it was just more of the same.

And now that I have those two preliminaries out of the way, I’ll finally get to the point. :’D

(hooray, it didn’t even take 1k words to get there for once!)

The “main stage” of Supernatural has always been Earth. It’s always been “Humanity.” At the very start, we meet two men whose lives had always been dictated to them by higher powers. At first, that “higher power” was their father who raised them in his vengeance mission, who trained them to hunt the supernatural. It was the inciting incident of the entire series, after all, their realization that forces outside of their control had irrevocably altered the course of their lives. It had forever torn down what they’d trusted in family, in personal safety, and would become something they couldn’t outrun or fight back against for long before another wave of cosmic discord would settle over them once more.

We watched this story play out in ever increasing spheres of cosmic significance, until Gabriel laid it out on the table for them in the simplest possible terms (in 5.08).

GABRIEL: You do not know my family. What you guys call the apocalypse, I used to call Sunday dinner. That's why there's no stopping this, because this isn't about a war. It's about two brothers that loved each other and betrayed each other. You'd think you'd be able to relate. SAM: What are you talking about? GABRIEL: You sorry sons of bitches. Why do you think you two are the vessels? Think about it. Michael, the big brother, loyal to an absent father, and Lucifer, the little brother, rebellious of Daddy's plan. You were born to this, boys. It's your destiny! It was always you! As it is in heaven, so it must be on earth. One brother has to kill the other. DEAN: What the hell are you saying? GABRIEL: Why do you think I've always taken such an interest in you? Because from the moment Dad flipped on the lights around here, we knew it was all gonna end with you. Always. A long pause. SAM and DEAN look down, then at each other. DEAN: No. That's not gonna happen. GABRIEL: I'm sorry. But it is. GABRIEL sighs. GABRIEL: Guys. I wish this were a TV show. Easy answers, endings wrapped up in a bow...but this is real, and it's gonna end bloody for all of us. That's just how it's gotta be. ***

And isn’t that all even 1000x more painfully ironic that it all still happened even 10 years later? It was always going to end with them. And lol, “I wish this were a TV show” because if it was then it wouldn’t have to end bloody.

But this… was a Major Acknowledgement that the meta level of this story was consistent, and was telling us something important. It demonstrated that the Cosmic Structure Itself was the cause for Sam and Dean’s “destiny” in this story. But that’s not what the point of this story has ever been.

Nobody (including me, who is literally obsessed with this aspect of the story) has ever invested themselves in the narrative of Supernatural because they cared about the fate of the cosmic order over and above the fate of the characters who had committed to overthrowing it all, to “tearing up the pages” and writing their own destinies. I mean, we became invested because Sam, Dean, and Cas as characters took us by the hand and invited us to come along with them as they battled against fate for the good of EARTH and HUMANITY.

And certainly, Heaven being a horrific sort of eternal replay of the “highlights” of individual souls greatest hits, where free will didn’t apply as everyone was just boxed away into their individual holodecks to serve as some sort of giant Heaven Battery powering the furtherance of this narrative, this “cosmic order” that had become so powerful it dictated the events and manipulated the lives of people who still existed in the ostensible realm of free will and human life on Earth… that couldn’t stand in the end. But what the narrative (and people I’ve seen attempting to justify the finale as narratively sensible) seems to have forgotten was that all of that was Chuck’s construct to begin with. That without Chuck holding his kingdom in Heaven together, the walls of all those soul cubicles ceased to even be relevant.

After spending their entire lives to this point constantly fighting their way to the absolute pinnacle of the As Above, So Below narrative and pulling the plug on the original creator himself, Humanity should’ve triumphed. And I’d argue that it DID, through Jack restoring the missing essential “humanity” to the divine condition. And, silly me, I thought they’d achieved the promise of “paradise” heralded by Jack’s birth at last, and truly “flipped the entire script of the narrative.”

Ever since they thwarted the original apocalypse, I had hope that they would continue to achieve the same result right up the ladder. Metatron trying to fill the role of Chuck Junior hit his own narrative wall in TFW, while Dean’s battle with the Mark of Cain, and Cain telling him he was “living my life in reverse” and would succumb to destiny by killing his loved ones in the “reverse order” to Cain’s own path to downfall cemented this for me. Dean not only failed to kill any of his loved ones (you didn’t kill your own brother. why?), he SAVED them. He didn’t fulfil the prophecy in reverse, he subverted it. He UNMADE it.

Perhaps I was thinking on too grand a scale, that the ultimate inversion wouldn’t be “God is overthrown and replaced by more of the same,” but “God is overthrown and the entire order of the universe is restructured from the bottom up rather than the top down.

I’d hoped against hope that the conclusion of the narrative would be “As below, so above,” with the fundamental power of human love becoming the new foundation of the cosmic order. It never even occurred to me that “taking back the narrative to rewrite it for ourselves” was not the ultimate goal of Team Free Will, or the ultimate expression of their biggest win.

This whole “well heaven really needed to be rebuilt, there was still work to be done!” seems… irrelevant to me if they’d truly won free of the cosmic narrative. The entire structure of the universe-- including Heaven and Hell-- should’ve defaulted to the paradise state that Jack was literally born to bring to fruition. Wasn’t that the point of his entire role in the story, ultimately?

And if that wasn’t the case in the end, why did we never learn the fate of Hell? Was it just… irrelevant and unchanged after this? Or just… abandoned as a concept entirely? It’s just strange to me to put such a focus on heaven being the sole sphere of import in the end that it undercuts the essential humanity of the narrative for me.

The story itself had kept Heaven on a back burner for years, only occasionally mentioning that the structure of the place was falling further and further into disrepair with a dwindling force of angels struggling to keep the walls in place at all, that it seems like it could’ve been an afterthought at the end of the series rather than a focus so large it required the death of both main characters to make sure we all understood that Heaven Had Changed Now. Because TFW had never been fighting to make Heaven right. They’d been fighting to save the world itself, for humanity to all have a chance to live their lives as their own.

And we didn’t need to see that in the final hope they might get their own lives on Earth to explore. In the end, the fundamental narrative that Life On Earth was dictated by the cosmic structure of creation was never fully subverted. And for me, that’s the main reason I just… can’t accept the finale. It wasn’t a victory of free will and humanity, in the end it was just more of the same.

I appreciate the attempts to take the essential bones of the story we did get and apply a different polish to the surface of the skeleton, but to me it still feels like we’re looking at completely different beasts in the end. Like… to me this was as jarring a revelation as those drawing of modern animals reimagined as dinosaurs entirely based on their skeletons. Like, all along the narrative told me I was looking at a swan. They told me this skeleton they’re building out from is definitely a swan, without a doubt. I know what a swan looks like-- a graceful feather-covered bird with magnificent wings. I trusted that in the end it would be at least remotely swan-looking. And then the finale ended up looking like this

and I just don’t even know where everything went so wrong. Or maybe all along I just assumed they actually knew what a swan looked like, but weren’t sure they could actually pull it off and settled for whatever the heck this is instead. Either way, I’m actually kinda grateful to the finale for being so entirely disappointing on every level, because otherwise I probably would’ve tried to adopt the monstrosity of it anyway. And I’m really, really glad I don’t have to.

#spn 15.20 #spn cosmology #heaven hell purgatory and the empty #and this is why no amount of narrative defense of the finale is capable of making me feel any better about it #i admit i thought too big... but it was all right there in the narrative to see #oh well at least all i have to do to hold on to my grandest notion of the universe is throw out the finale :'D

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crypticqueer1 · 3 years ago

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Honestly, I think that Dean would have been a better match for Lucifer than Sam.

The main reason Sam was chosen for Lucifer was because they both broke off from the family, and because of the parallels between their fathers and brothers.

But really, Dean is more like Lucifer, his fall just happened later.

They both have the same crappy dad, and a brother who ‘betrayed’ them.

In Supernatural, Lucifer’s story is that he idolized his brother, but his brother turned on him, and called him a monster. This fits both Sam and Dean. While the parallel with Sam is more obvious, Dean also matches this. He idolized his dad, and felt betrayed when Sam left.

Lucifer was one of God’s favorites, but when humans were created, he wasn’t able to accept that he wasn’t God’s favorite anymore. Dean was super loyal to John, but he realized that John put avenging Mary’s death above him and Sam.

God told Lucifer to love humans more than him, and Lucifer refused, saying that humans were monsters. John told Dean that all ‘monsters’ were evil, and needed to be killed. Lucifer fell to hell for his disobedience, and we all know that if John knew that Dean befriended several monsters, and thought that they weren’t all evil, John would have gone crazy. Both fathers tried to make their sons view the world a certain way, without actually paying attention to them.

Lucifer created demons, and the knights of hell, and Dean created Team Free Will (and Team Free Will 2.0), as acts of defiance to God.

Despite being the bad guy, Lucifer often showed signs of being human. He showed disappointment when Michael berated him, and admired Castiel for his loyalty. (This is an example of how angels themselves, despite being holy beings, are just as human as Sam and Dean) Dean is supposed to be a soldier, but we see him break multiple times.

Sam was a good vessel for Lucifer, but Dean could have been too. Actually, it might have been better for Lucifer if he had chosen Dean. He could have used Sam and easily gotten Dean to give up control to him. Sam didn’t have as much of an attachment to Dean that Dean has to him, so Lucifer might have had more luck with Sam by appealing more to his morality. Sam would become a vessel he thought it would save the world, but Dean would always put Sam above humanity, making him easier to manipulate.

I have some more character and relationship analysis I have planned, so tell me what y’all think.

-How angels are just as human as Sam and Dean, despite being ‘holy beings’

-How John’s treatment of both his sons shaped them into something he never wanted them to be

-How Dean’s love for Castiel started as faith in a higher being, and then became pure, true love because of his humanity

-How Dean treated Jack badly at first cause he was afraid of making Jack depend on him like Sam did, only to disappoint him

If there’s anything else y’all want my analysis on, let me know!

#supernatural #dean winchester #destiel #sam winchester #lucifer #parallels #analysis #character analysis

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janiedean · 4 years ago

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if you ever wrote that rant about grrm making jon his chosen one deconstruction i'd be very happy to read it 👀

hello anon sorry for the lateness but here we go *deep breath*

sssooo, I had once ranted about it though not mentioning the thing I mentioned in those tags so lemme see if I can find the op and like... cp the main argument and amend it bc it was long, but okay so I found it, original anon asked me: why is Jon considered to be one of the most special characters grrm created? Why is he not the typical hero of fantasy books?, my original answer was here if anyone wants to go there but basically lemme just cp the first part making it shorter and then I'm adding:

first thing, the Typical Post-Tolkien Chosen One With A Shitty Life Before He Finds Out He Is Chosen™ character (I’m saying post-tolkien because every fantasy writer in existence who copies tolkien thinks that lotr went like that and instead it didn’t) usually goes through the following steps: his life sucks up until the beginning of the series, his family generally hates him/her or doesn’t appreciate them or abuses them or anyway doesn’t make their life easier and they’ve never known any different, but *something* never quite worked right and they always knew something was missing in their life, they just didn’t know why. suddenly someone who knows they were Chosen™ shows up and tells them that they’re actually Special because of this this and that and they have a quest to go on to save the world or something. our hero/heroine obviously is finally validated and while their quest is hard and full of hardships and maybe they lose a few friends along the way, finding out that they were Chosen gives their life meaning, they usually find love/friends/everything they didn’t have before until they fulfill the Prophecy™ and live more or less happily ever after, possibly after hooking up with the Person Of Their Dreams with whom they had UST up until the last twenty pages of the book. basically: being Chosen™ in regular fantasy novels is a good thing because suddenly you’re special and all the crap you suffered acquires a new meaning and in the end it made your life better.

jon snow is a complete overhaul of about everything in this sense because

instead of having a family who hates him he has a family who actually mostly loves him, and with ned it’s arguably so much that he risks royal treason by keeping him hidden from his *best friend* - sure, there’s cat and peripherally sansa, but his issues stem from the fact that he feels lesser because he’s a bastard (as far as he knows) and it’s a *class* issue, not a *my family hates me* issue not counting catelyn obv but that's what gives him freudian issues more on that in the emended part later

no one actually knows that he’s Chosen™ - like mel could get there and probably will and someone will put two and two together when his parentage comes out in the open, but he doesn’t have a gandalf or mentor who shows him The Way Towards His Quest

so instead of going from ‘my life sucks but I’m going on a quest which is gonna be a+’ he actively chooses to leave a fairly decent situation (a household he knows, siblings who love him - ned actually hoped he’d become robb’s counselor or right hand man or something from what we can gather) because he feels like he has to prove he’s better than his name and goes to the Crappiest Place In Westeros. like idk if people grasp it, but the wall is basically a prison and at the ripe age of fourteen he decides that it’s totally a good and honorable choice (his only choice actually) to go defend the realm in the freezing cold along with a bunch of criminals/derelicts/rejects of society

at which point he makes friends among said rejects and let’s remember that it’s the point where he actually has to do his first an only privilege when donal noye made him go like hey you were brought up with nobles these ppl are here because they stole bread, and that helps making him more into the person he is rn but like your tyopical fantasy hero who has had a shitty life doesn’t usually have to acknowledge that other people might have had it worse

then he goes on the Quest where he finds his first One True Love, and that’s where it turns even worse because usually the quest is where things start to go right for the Hero™, instead for jon they start to go wronger, because first he has to go undercover which pretty much tests most of his belief/code system, he falls in love with a girl he has to betray, half of his friends and his lord commander die along the way, while he’s off doing his thing winterfell gets taken/burned and robb dies when jon openly stated that he also was going to the wall to defend his family and keep them safe (yeaaah worked out real well), when he goes back to the wall he has to fight the people he lived with for months, the woman he loves dies in his arms and he can’t do anything about it and he’s aware it couldn’t have gone any other way, people put defending the wall on him and then put his loyalty in question, when stannis shows up with a legitimization (which is everything he ever wanted) he refuses because he doesn’t want to accidentally steal his siblings’s inheritance (which was what cat was so worried about hahaha) and actively chooses the crappy defending the realm life all over again. also in all this time his being Chosen™ hasn’t manifested or helped him in any way whatsoever - actually all his honor-moral code related baggage is what moral dilemmas come from that. like, your usual chosen hero™ would always take the right decision and it all turns out good eventually, jon takes the morally right decision and it all turns SOUR eventually

at this point he finally gets elected LC, thanks to his friends also pitching in, which is about the one fantasy hero™ thing that’s happened for now. should be good, yes?

lol no, because he ends up with THAT hellish responsibility at sixteen, since he thinks that he has absolutely to be even better than that now and he has very specific notions about how you should lead and he knows he has to take unpopular decisions/decisions that he doesn’t necessarily like, he ends up either having to send his friends away forreal (sam) or detaching from them (pyp/grenn/the likes) and when as far as he knows he learns that his sister is married to ramsay he can’t do anything about it

never mind that it’s the same situation as when he had to pick the watch or robb in book one - he went there to defend his family and now being there actually prevents him from helping them in person. ops. meanwhile he’s trying to implement a new vision of things which is modern and smart and actually makes sense because why fighting the wildlings when you have ZOMBIES coming. your usual Chosen One™ would get people to approve just because he’s the Chosen One

instead jon gets stabbed to death - okay, that was also because he wanted to go get arya but it was the last straw, people were pissed over the wildlings plan first and foremost

so basically he’s gone through all the Chosen One™ steps but in reverse - he loses his family which did love him instead of finding another one that makes the first pale in comparison, he does find a new one who loves him but has to alienate most of its members for responsibility reasons as a consequence of what should have been the crowning achievement of his life choices (which eventually is NOT one), he falls in love and they don’t drag the UST forever but they never get a chance to be together without small print in between, he chooses the admittedly most masochistic life he could for his family as well and half of them die and he can’t do a thing for the other half, every other mentor-like figure he runs into after ned dies, instead of finding validation he ends up having to isolate himself and on top of everything HE STILL DOESN’T FUCKING KNOW HE’S THE CHOSEN ONE™

so instead of his life going better the more he learns stuff and matures as a person, he gets murdered. by the people he trusts and who were supposed to be his new family. haha?

never mind that when he finds out he’s the Chosen One™ it won’t bring him closure because all he ever wanted was being full stark like his father/siblings and then bam he’s going to find out his father’s actually targaryen and what does that even mean to him?

on top of that being AA will just be a pain because I don’t believe for a second he’s not going to get leftover ptsd and who the hell is gonna help him deal with it? or how is he ever getting over his *brothers* murdering him? and people are going to ask stuff of him all over again and he’s gonna have to go slay a mythical monster and if I know grrm it’s not gonna be fun, pretty or cathartic FOR HIM

on top of that, Chosen Hero™ fulfills the prophecy and gets a realm to rule and everyone lives happily ever after. money is that if jon does get that realm (and I think he is because he has the best claim if he's legitimate and most likely it'll turn out he was on the targ side but ROBB also legitimized him so he has double the legitimization), he’s going to hate every second of it and he’ll take it because a) duty, b) literally no one else is available, and like this guy didn’t want to rule a realm or be a king or anything he just wanted to be a stark, and instead he’s going to have to after all that shit thanks to Magical And Noble Heritage he hadn’t even known he had and probably didn’t even want up to that point because since when jon wanted to be a targ? yeah since never

obviously I hope he manages to be somewhat happy regardless because the alternative is too miserable, but basically being a Chosen Hero™ is what makes jon’s life worse rather than better and the fact that hew went through all the regular self-discovery journey for the fantasy hero list doesn’t mean he’s not flipping that over in his sl. the fact that he stayed a decent person more or less throughout it and that he hasn’t turned into a bitter asshole also doesn’t change the main point XD

tldr: jon snow is not a typical fantasy hero because he deconstructs that trope into tiny little bits same as robb deconstructed the arthurian flawless king hero trope

now ^^^^^ THAT was what I originally wrote for that meta but adding on to what I said in those tags

okay so... there is a certain tendency to also make the chosen one™ special in the sense that he's kind of goals - good looking, rich or set to inherit, gallant, takes the initiative, he's like.. social or anyway immediately makes friends etc and all that jazz which jon... doesn't really fit

like jon is an introvert who immediately makes friends just with outcasts and his siblings also bc he feels like one but he's hardly a social butterfly and charms everyone wherever he walks by

I mean ffs says all that the only person he charmed in that sense is stannis who is the literal only person in charge in the books who is more introvert than him and has worse communication issues and appreciates ppl going straight to the point

on top of that in the book he looks like ned.... and arya looks like ned and ned isn't described as being particularly handsome that was brandon so he's not even like... I mean kit h. is v. pretty and I think he was a good choice for the role and I'll die on the hill that he was born to play that character and he did it well but book!jon doesn't have that kinda pretty face so the concept that he's the HOT alternative to anyone to me is kind of iffy bc he's not

he's shit at social interactions and at PR which is why robb and him would have been a key winning ticket like he has a better idea of the larger picture but robb would have actually made sure ppl didn't turn against them bc he actually was good at that but like he doesn't go around rallying armies in his name does he

the one time he's been with a girl it was ygritte and like he courted her without realizing it and then she had to pursue him and he barely knew wtf to do on top of the fact that they slept with ghost in the middle of them like a sword which..... is.... I mean sleeping with the sword in the middle was a thing to make sure the maiden stayed a maiden and he's the one who is like i CAN'T HAVE SEX WITH HER EVEN IF I WANT TO BECAUSE I'M TECHNICALLY SPYING ON THEM like... he's not... gallant-knight coded

never mind that the moment they do the do she basically does everything until he decides to try the oral which I mean... isn't exactly alphadominatingmale out of jon which is not a given with the trope he's supposed to represent like he's not smooth he's not suave he's like WHAT THE FUCK when ygritte tells him he has a pretty face bc most likely no one else told him that and he like... doesn't pursue people like that in general which is also not exactly 100% what that trope usually goes for

we can add that he has a lot of passive-aggressive little shit sarcasm in him that they didn't let him go for in the show but like... usually chosen heroes™ don't think what he thinks about selyse in general

we can also add that he's not automatically above being better than his position like... he doesn't take winterfell bc ygritte is dead but he did think he'd have taken the deal sansa or not if stannis had said he could marry her and not val and if she wasn't dead, he basically went off the rails at the dude he was fighting with thinking about robb telling him that he couldn't be lord of wf because he was a bastard and he's absolutely not in the frame of mind of 'well I was born a bastard who cares it doesn't define me'

he's obsessed to the point of unhealthy with actually being defined by it which is why he was better off with the wildlings aka the only idiots in the realm who don't gaf about that

and that's like... I mean usually if chosen ones™ have parental issues it's like 'you were an orphan and raised by asses who weren't your parents but your parents loved you and you'll find out at some point and you'll be happier for it and make your own family', jon is like... he has the mommy freudian issues of the century bc of how cat treated him, on the other side he's obsessed with living up to ned's/his father's name and he hates that it makes him not-belonging or that he feels like he doesn't even if he does with his siblings, and at the same time when the truth about it comes out he's going to get the cold shower of the century bc like - he's spent all that time thinking BUT DID MY MOTHER WANT ME WHO WAS MY MOTHER and he's going to find out of who it was and how he was born and honestly considering that lyanna most likely did regret running with rhaegar the moment he finds that out and that she died birthing him how is he going to feel? - also he spends his life wanting to live up to his 'father's' name aka ned aka someone known to be honorable to a fault and then it turns out his bio father is... the dude who started that entire rebellion not doing a very honorable thing? - also if jon*erys is a thing idt that he'd take 'I fell in love with my aunt' so nonchalantly as he did in the show tldr: he's never gonna get over his parental issues in a short time and when that particular brick hits him in the face it won't be pretty

like the entire point of jon is that he goes through all the chosenone™ cursus honorum as we'd call it in high school when studying latin but each step that means smth good for the usual chosenone™ to him is something bad, being one is not going to make his life better and throughout the entire thing he does not fit that stereotype when it comes to look, personality, basic traits and familial history and like hell he's going to have the happy ending tied up with the bow - like I think he gets a bittersweet one and eventually goes off with the wildlings bc he belongs there after being jon snow first of his name (bc like hell he's not reclaiming his bastard background at the end of this entire mess I'm eating my hat if he doesn't) after splitting the seven realms and fixing things but that's hardly the neat happy ending the chosenone™ usually gets so that's my two cents

... christ this was long *raises hands*

#jon snow #tagging for the lulz i guess #janie writes meta #ch: jon snow #long post for ts #tldr jon snow is a kurt cobain stan in disguise in westeros and chosenones™ aren't nirvana stan coded #and i'm dying on this hill xD

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dangermousie · 4 years ago

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Continuing with my reread

And got to the point where they visit the Rufeng Sect.

But before I get to the chapters-specific stuff, I wanted to talk about something that discussion between @moransumbrella and @momoliee (about SQT and RJ) made me think about.

And it’s that in 2ha, one of the big narrative points is that it is understandable to want to survive/get revenge/protect yourself or others but no goal however understandable or noble in the abstract can justify systematically hurting innocents and when you cross that line and keep crossing it, you become a monster. Maybe a tragic one or understandable one, but there is none of that “oh you poor thing, go on” attitude.

Is there any doubt that Shimei is fully justified in wanting to save his people from the horrors they are subjected to in the cultivation world? No, not at all. But leaving aside the irony of his plan wrecking both the one person we’ve seen who never ever went along with that behavior (CWN) and the person who IS part of those people and a special one at that (Moran), those two also being some of the few people who treated him so well, nobody in their right mind would think he’s justified to literally destroy a Universe he is in and then start working on the Universe of the main story. He is a monster pure and simple and nothing can justify what he does. Or, on a smaller scale take someone like Rong Jiu (mainly 0.5), Song QT, Nangong Xu or even that family in Butterfly Town. They all have reasons for doing the horrible things they do - desperation to get out of awful life (RJ, SQT), rightly wanting vengeance for having his place stolen (NX), or even understandable desire to get ahead as a family (Butterfly Town folks.) Shimei’s sister - same - she does the monstrous things she does because she loves her brother. Meatbun gets that very few people genuinely see themselves as villains - even as mad, as gone, as compelled, as broken TXJ was, he still clung to his “I was justified to torture CWN 0.5 because he killed Shimei″ like a life raft. Even a person who was not in any way in possession of free will in his actions or even his thoughts, still felt he needed to operate on a “just world” theory.

BUT the thing is, it makes their actions justified in their own heads but Meatbun never makes the mistake of letting us forget that even monsters with valid reasons are monsters. There is no justification in the world that can make what Shimei did OK, there is no justification in the world that can make anything any of the bad actors do to innocents OK. It relates to huge things (Hua Binan literally destroying the Universe) and little ones (Rong Jiu in the Underworld betraying Moran and CWN.) Sympathy and justice are two separate concepts.

But the other thing I love is nothing is static either. Meatbun doesn’t shie from calling a monster a monster but redemption is possible no matter what. We see this with Moran (until the twist, of course, that no redemption is necessary (sort of - about this more word vomit below) because he’s an even bigger victim than CWN), we see it with Shimei 2.0 - I will never warm up to Shimei for emotional reasons but there is zero question that he is working hard on his redemption at the end and is earning it. But the thing is - you have to possess moral consciousness to want to redeem yourself. That is what makes you salvageable. Moran possesses it, Shimei 2.0 possesses it (and I love the concept that no matter how high your sins, you CAN be redeemed. But that redemption doesn’t necessarily involve personal happiness or your victims forgiving you, it is basically hard work only for internal reward of the possibility of peace.) A lot of other monsters, large and small, do not.

OK, the thing about whether Moran needs redemption that I just mentioned. The quick and easy answer is “of course not.” He was probably the biggest victim of them all and none of the monstrous things he did were his fault or within his control. But I love that the answer is actually more complicated because it rings emotionally true. Moran finding out the truth near the end is wonderful and will allow him not to perpetually drown in guilt, but just as TXJ sliver doesn’t really fade into the rest of his souls, I don’t think the guilt will go away fully, not for a while. Because, aside from the concept of utter lack of volition combined with utter lack of knowledge that you actually lacked volition and deludedly thought this was all your ideas, being a whole other different trauma, the fact remains that Moran remembers feeling rage/hatred/bitter satisfaction in murder and rape and torture and burning the world. He remembers all the awful things he’s done to his most loved ones. And he clearly gloms onto “the flower brings out all your darkest/worst/most insane desires and makes them conscious thoughts” aspect of the curse - he tells CWN that the flower made real things he sometimes thought of and so it only worked because it was him and not someone better like CWN - and some of it is trying to comfort CWN and make him feel less guilty that Moran took on the flower so CWN’s won’t be forced to to - but some of it is his genuine belief. And that is what is so insidious about that curse - it twists normal stray thoughts and healthy interests into murder and insanity (compare TXJ’s obsession with CWN because Moran had such strong positive feelings about CWN before the spell, to his utter lack interest in e.g., Nangong Liu who he let run off when he took Rufeng because as long as the man didn’t fight him, he couldn’t care less what he did, because flower couldn’t turn indifference into something negative.) So I do think in addition to knowing on intellectual level about not being responsible not being equal to getting it on emotional level, Moran clearly feels responsibility because it was his emotions only out of whack and insanely perverted that the flower based its compulsions on. Moran became such a monster precisely because he has such strong loves and such strong emotions in general - strong love and desire to protect became strong hate and endless appetite for torture. The flower changes the nature of emotion and thoughts, not the level of intensity. If Shimei actually found someone who was genuinely utterly indifferent to most things (not CWN who feels so intensely; he conceals himself so much precisely because he feels SO much, cares SO much, he’d have been as much of a monster as Moran if he was the flower recepient), I am not sure he’d have been as successful. If the most someone is capable of is mild “eh,” it’s hard to turn it into a drive for world-destruction. So in a way, Taxian Jun was such a monster and so successful because Moran was so good and had such drive. Anyway, as most of my thoughts, this has gone into a random direction but the thing is, whether Moran is guilty of what TXJ did, the answer is not but not for Moran, and that’s one of the reasons I love him.

To get back to the chapters I am at, I hate Nangong Liu, one of the most despicable characters out there. Even TXJ, as messed up as he was, still hated not people who fought him fair and square or other honest villains, but people who’d kiss up only to stab you in the back, doing anything to get ahead and that is what head of Rufeng is. (There is a sentence to that extent when Moran 2.0 meets Nangong Liu - that who he hated most as TXJ was not Xue Meng or MHX but people like Nangong Liu. That loathing, like his obsession with CWN, is one of the few things consistent across any version of Moran and shows how much his “gratitude for good, straightforward is good” is embedded in him that even the flower couldn’t shove it out of him.) CWN’s comment that the reason Rufeng Sect is so rich because they charge God knows how much as opposed to Siseng Peak which charges very little and sometimes nothing, sums up the difference between the Upper and Lower cultivation realms. Rufeng is the wealthiest and most powerful and most respected but morally they are far beneath Siseng (there is a reason CWN is very gentle when he tells this to Xue ZY - CWN has about the truest and most moral heart in the series; there is a reason he stayed at Siseng, an “inferior” sect, even though everyone would love to have him. It’s because Xue ZY is righteous and he sees the wealth of Rufeng and wishes he could use it to give villages protection instead of decorating like Rufeng, because he’s that type of person.)

One of the biggest injustices to me is that Nangong Liu survives the book but Meatbun’s world is often like that. Being good does not mean a good ending, being bad does not mean proper punishment. The main OTP will make it through despite hell she puts them through, but for secondaries even those bets are off.

OK, this is getting War and Peace level long so I am going to stop.

#cnovel #2ha

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