#there are a lot of extremely valid criticisms of fandom wrt to the way it perpetuates social issues w/n itself

[impishglee]

also expanding on uh lrb before last, it’s basically fine if you have a hobby that forms a large part of your identity and it’s fine if that hobby is fandom. fandom isn’t an inherently less valuable hobby than sports/crafting/hiking/etc. like it’s fine. we are all trying to find ways to enjoy ourselves and connect with other people while we’re kicking around on this planet, if fandom is your favorite way to do that, godspeed.

[messymindofmine]

I've debated whether or not to say this but it's something that's been weighing on me a lot lately. I feel like something we need to address in this fandom is the harsh judgement and lack of grace towards our wonderful characters when we see them mess up.

I know that this season really knocked us all for a loop with Carlos's big reveal. I definitely didn't love the entire "secret marriage" storyline but the way some people reacted to it baffles me. I totally understand being angry. There is no denying that the storyline was full of plotholes and didn't mesh well with what we'd seen on the show in prior seasons. That said, I have to disagree with the people saying that it ruined Carlos's character or that it didn't make sense for him. Here's the thing, Carlos has never been perfect. He's been shown as being flawed and making mistakes since the beginning. It's just that up until this season, his mistakes have often been blamed onto others (usually TK) or ignored entirely. Since the beginning, Carlos was held on an unrealistic pedestal. Even criticisms of him being a cop were met with hostility. Then this season gave us Carlos messing up in a way that could not be blamed on anyone but him and it sent many people into a tailspin. As a result, they either still tried to pin the blame onto someone else (chiefly Iris) or they acted like Carlos's character was irrevocably ruined and started to act like they'd never liked or defended him, maybe to give themselves a feeling of superiority or not to come off as hypocrites. At any rate, I understand feeling upset that a character you love has messed up in such a big way but that doesn't mean that the character is ruined. I hate that Rafa felt like he had to get people to fall in love with Carlos again because I certainly never stopped and I know plenty of others (I would even go as far as to say most of us) didn't. It doesn't surprise me that people reacted that way though. What happened with Carlos is exactly what we see happen in real life with celebrities that have been put onto a pedestal by their fans. As soon as that celebrity messes up in a human way their fans can't excuse or ignore, many of those same fans will turn against them completely and even act like they never liked the celebrity anyway because they can't handle the thought of their fave being human. Such is the danger of idealizing humans. Not every flaw needs to be defended, sometimes these flaws need to just be accepted as part of being human and given grace. And that's what makes our characters so relatable to us. They are human. That's also why the anger towards Carlos this season was so jarring. Because it is something that has never really happened before and some people have gone from one extreme to the other. Well, Carlos is a human and he has never been perfect. I am sorry to the people who were disappointed by him this season but I fail to see any reason why so many insist on acting like he's completely ruined or refuse to show any understanding or grace as to why he did these things in the first place. A character without flaws would never be a fully realized character and it would be a disservice to the fandom. I'm not saying that a lot of the criticism wrt Carlos's storylines this season aren't valid or that people aren't allowed to be upset about the way certain things were done this season. I certainly have my criticisms but Carlos is a rich, complex character and that's what makes him so realistic and lovable. Valid criticism of a character's actions is one thing but to tear a character apart and then act like you never blindly defended them is another entirely. It's just gross and hypocritical. Most of all, the people who relate to Carlos in this fandom should not have to feel threatened or that their feelings and experiences don't matter.

Iris is another character that has been torn apart by fans this season. The people who still refuse to admit that Carlos isn't perfect have decided to pin the blame for the marriage onto her even though it has been made very clear that Carlos was the one who initiated the idea. But the negativity towards her didn't start this season. It's been there since her first appearance in 1x09. Even back then when we knew nothing about her beyond her being Michelle's sister and that she had schizophrenia, people chose to hate on her rather than show compassion and understanding. Back then, I saw Iris being referred to as "selfish" and "ungrateful" for refusing treatment. She was made fun of for the behavior we saw in 1x09 and 1x10 without people taking into consideration what she would have been dealing with. This season though it was taken to another level. People were even acting like Iris forced Carlos to stay married even though Carlos himself admits that he never even visited her when she returned. Obviously, Iris didn't even know TK existed and because she needed the insurance she got from the marriage so Carlos would have needed to be the one to initiate a divorce or annulment. Beyond that, we had some scenes of her behaving in a way that is out of the ordinary to neurotypical people but the reason for that was made very clear yet people still chose to use it against her. The way people acted like she was somehow standing between Tarlos is ridiculous especially since we literally had her saying onscreen that she wanted Tarlos to have a real marriage unlike what her and Carlos had. There are people in this fandom who can relate to Iris and they don't deserve to feel like they are less than or that they are not safe because some people can't handle the idea of a character not being perfect and so pin the blame on the easiest target.

TK has been a punching bag for many in this fandom since the beginning. From the moment he walked out of that dinner in 1x02, even though we all knew why he did that, people lashed out at him and it hasn't stopped since. Until this season, even the tiniest of conflicts between Tarlos have been blamed on TK. People have gone so far as to say that he's a terrible partner because he brought a lizard home. The breakup was entirely blamed on him and I remember seeing fics that killed him off during the Push era. People straight up accused him of cheating with Cooper in 3x13. They did the same thing when he dared to smile and joke with a bartender in 2x04. Nothing TK does for Carlos is ever enough and his actions (or non-actions for that matter) are constantly twisted to make it seem like he doesn't love Carlos as much as Carlos loves him. Even his proposal hasn't been safe from this. People keep saying that it wasn't good enough because he didn't buy an expensive ring and take Carlos to a fancy dinner. And this constant criticism and judgement never goes away. People keep bringing up past actions or even things he's never even done for the purpose of tearing him down. I've even seen people say he sucked because he didn't support Carlos in 2x08 even though when everything with Carlos was happening, he was literally being kidnapped and held at gunpoint. I have actually seen people say that if they were Carlos they would've killed TK by now. I've also seen people say that TK's biggest problem is that he doesn't appreciate how lucky he is. I have seen so much ableist and offensive language used that I can't even begin to talk about it here. It's not always just anger either. I've seen people just mocking him for certain behaviors that are completely consistent for someone who deals with addiction and mental illness. There are people in this fandom who relate to TK and the microaggressions towards them (and TK) don't get called out enough IMHO. And it's worth adding that a lot of the language that has been used towards TK has also been used towards Iris. I know people who actually had to step back or leave the fandom entirely after the Cooper episode. People who can relate to TK and tried to explain why he was acting like that and what Cooper's place in his life was were attacked. And it doesn't always just pertain to the show itself either. Even now during the hiatus, if someone talks about the impact Carlos has had on TK's life or what great care he takes of TK, they are accused of not caring about Carlos or favoring TK. But if the talk about how much TK has done for Carlos, they are accused also accused of favoring TK. It seems like not only is TK not allowed to be a vulnerable, complex character with lots of wonderful attributes, people in the fandom aren't allowed to love him either. Things from past episodes and seasons are constantly brought up as "proof" of how much TK sucks. Even Ronen has talked about how he feels people often misunderstand TK or ignore his struggles. In fact, he did it just this season in a post-4x04 interview. People kept saying they wanted TK to prove his love to Carlos by rescuing him (because I guess everything else wasn't enough) and when it did happen, they complain that it wasn't good enough. When TK was the one who needed support for the first time this season during the Huntington's arc, people mocked him for being over-dramatic. Then they said that TK had better have really great vows because he needed to match what Carlos said to prove his love. Then when we saw his vows, they now say that the vows weren't good enough and that TK wasn't emotional enough even though we can see him sniffling and hear his voice crack. Basically, even when TK does the things people insist he needs to do, it's still never going to be good enough. And when any comment about the way he is treated by certain people is brought up, it's often dismissed, downplayed or ignored and the people who actually relate to TK continue to feel unsafe and ignored when they try to speak out.

If there is one character that is literally never safe from the wrath of the fandom, it's Owen. Literally everything that Owen says, does, doesn't say or doesn't do is used as a reason for people to say he is the worst father or the worst captain. It's like people watch him from a completely different lens than they do all the other characters and somehow this lens doesn't show them any of the positive things about him. Much like Carlos, Iris and TK, so much of Owen's actions can be explained by his trauma and his experiences. This is a man who deals with the worst kind of survivor's guilt and has experienced unimaginable loss since he was a child. He has a son who struggles greatly with his mental health and addiction yet in that son's own words he has never given up on him. He is the one that brought all the characters we love together in the first place and so much of the happiness they have now is partly due to him. Yet somehow people ignore all this in favor of ripping into him every chance they get. He can't even talk about sex in front of his adult son who very clearly has no problem with it without people calling him a terrible father.

To be clear, I am absolutely not saying that the issues mentioned above represent the entire fandom. I can honestly say that being a part of the LS fandom is more pleasant than any other fandom I have ever been in. But like all fandoms, and indeed like real life, there are issues that I think should be addressed even if the ones causing them are in the minority. Because the problem is that it doesn't matter how small the minority is when they're the loudest of the bunch. And sometimes it really does seem like the loud minority drowns out the majority who are just trying to have civil discussions and enjoy being a part of a fandom and that should never happen because fandom should be a place we can all feel safe.

[astxrwar]

some of the transmasc! mig hcs rub me the wrong way. ranting transgenderishly abt it. sorrie

1. why are so many ppl defaulting to giving him top surgery scars. look at his body shape, his hips are narrow and his shoulders are broad and he’s over 6’5 lmao. dude would have been on blockers then T as an early teenager. you don’t need top surgery then. unless you construct a narrative where he went off of T for like… at least a year (but probably longer) without getting a complete hysterectomy first then this makes no sense.

it just feels like ppl dont know that much abt transmasc experiences we r not all the same and top surgery scars r not just a thing you slap on to trans someone, not all of us require top surgery + cis guys get top surgery too? just giving uneducated

2. also the fact that it seems like it just doesn’t ever occur to ppl that trans men get bottom surgery. ig that’s an in general issue but why does it seem like every hc’ed trans man character always has a pussy. plenty of us have dicks bro it just feels fetish-y. plenty of us only pass on surgery bc it’s A Lot but it’s 2099 so that’s going to be less of an issue,,, specific to miguel like. why is nobody giving him bottom surgery scars like the fact that there’s not an equal or even rly existing rep for that in a world where getting it would be INFINITELY easier makes me uncomfy it’s rly giving ‘trans men as men-lite” energy

3. also for written content same deal why is nearly every trans guy hced as one who doesn’t get bottom surgery and why is there always SO MUCH focus on specifically using the word pussy. like bitch! an example of a common thing for transmascs: i dew naught even write fem!RC content using that word i avoid almost all fem-genitalia words bc they’re extremely uncomfy to me, and that phenomenon amongst trans men is even more common than trans men who have had bottom surgery. so we have an excess of content focusing on ‘guy with pussy’ and very little if any content even just recognizing a significant amount of trans men r not okay with that terminology n often do not even like engaging their natal anatomy beyond their dicks (significant number of us also use this word and not the other one! btw!!) during sex. n ppl don’t want to write abt this bc it doesn’t fit the fetish!! im doing murder!!

4. i saw someone ranting wrt trans!mig abt how ppl make male characters transmasc to make mlm ships “less gay” wrt: sex and its just like. im going to kill u too! trans men get bottom surgery bro trans men have dicks! plenty of the ones that don’t just straight up do not do PIV! way to hit the nail on the head wrt fandoms seeing trans men as men-lite lmao and way to miss the opportunity for criticism of fandom transphobia by just. validating that perception of trans men.

idk im just so tired where is my trans miguel no top surgery scars (bc he clearly got T at puberty onset) + with bottom surgery scars content :/ arm scar from the nerve + torso scar from the graft, it’s 2099 they’ve probably perfected skin expanders atp so it would just be like. one scar instead of the scar + stretched area but like. i digress. can we please have trans men with dicks content Ever? the abject lack of it kinda feels like left wing version of rw “c*ntboy” fetishism lol. im going to make some myself bc it is an outlet to deal with my Frustration abt this and explore how all trans ppl have different transitions narratively and counter the reductive fandom goggles perception of us. in general i wish the majority of ppl just didn’t do trans hcs until it stops just being a clear and obvious extension of fetishization and stereotyping. throttling ppl biting and maiming and tearing

also like there’s so many ppl who just think trans men who get bottom surgery r gross but won’t admit it and they especially shan’t see the light of heaven and should stop even thinking abt trans men at all <3

[badedramay]

i feel bad for sehar bc that review going around right now was the farthest thing from actually being constructive criticism (and i'm pretty sure they only praised hamza more bc they knew him personally in comparison, sehar is definitely the more skilled and versatile actor of the two imo) but i think i know the person anon is talking about who implied maya is merely a director's actor (and juxtaposed this with saying wahaj has way more star power and talent) and i just find it so funny how willing these people are to dish criticism blasé but utterly unable to take it when it's what they're personally invested in. the fact that so many of them were Pissed about that fuschia article on maya and yumna and said it was meaningless to give further attention to the hate but are simultaneously upset about this review and writing essays over it.. come on now. i agree with people that the review was in poor taste but at least hold everyone to the same standards and defend/support consistently. admittedly this may be receiving more attention bc it was actually industry veterans doing the hating rather than random trolls on the internet but regardless i'm tired of the fandom's hypocrisies. some of the fairytale criticism is overly harsh but a complete resistance to criticism isn't healthy either. even the roundtable gave me the impression that actors and fans alike are more invested in going on a complete defensive rather than fielding any criticism of their work whatsoever bc it's all painted as hate and being unsupportive. sometimes as an actor your job is to filter out the hate and focus on the criticisms of merit bc that's how you improve in your work. idk why it's so difficult to understand that !

i mean regardless of how much anyone tries to pose that they are 'not like these other people' because they stan a show with 'quality writing wrt romance and green flag characterization' the fact remains these are the SAME people who have been here for years only praising anyone who is NOT in direct competition of their ult fav. FT fandom tries to be above all by sneering at other content in the safety that their show would never stoop so low but it's clear as the day they are also affected by the valid criticism that the show is getting. i don't mean the extremely below the belt "criticism" that senior actors are doing on national tv to get some excitement in their lives where they try to relive their past glory but just comments and reactions of people on social media. you are right, the current atmosphere around social media is such that anything that is NOT extremely positive praise is taken as a personal attack. which...no? aisi bhi koi baat nahin??? just because we have complains about something or aren't agreeing with the direction a certain plot or character is taking doesn't mean we are haters or trolls or some jobless jealous fangirls who are only being mean cuz it's not our favs doing this "Quality" project. there's just a lot of dissonance here.

sureeee the show has greenest of love stories but toxic positivity is also not good. completely shutting off any opposing opinion by literally requesting the fellow fans to ignore all that noise and counter it by showering MORE love on something flawed will not get you anywhere in the long run.

as for what these people say about Maya toh again..she's only beloved when she's not a direct competition. she's only agreeable when she's doing niche dramas like Yunhi. she's acceptable when she's in short series with low viewership like Jo Bichar Gaye. in any mainstream project she's a nuisance. in a Netflix project where their beloved MK is not officially confirmed as the leading lady and the worst offense of all, not paired with either of the more desirable male actors while Maya IS..of course they'll revert back to finding flaws in her or passive aggressively put her down. i mean if her and Hamza are the "ceos of lost potential" shouldn't you be happy that they are getting another chance of being together onscreen? but lol nope. itna bada dil kahan hai. kitni bhi yeh maturity ka dhindora peet len..yeh dil se "bachay" hi hain. smug about the things they have and claiming that only THEY have the best toy of all. petty about the things others have and if they can't have those things, they'll do their best to make others feel bad for having them. it's soooo transparent? they claim to be feminists who like and want flawed heroines but only if their fav actor is playing them. a non-fav actor playing a flawed heroine in a similar vein as their fav character is "confusing" and "too out of touch with reality". the hypocrisy hypocrisizes like a hippopotamus xD

honestly, more power to Sehar. I hope she rises above all the hate she is getting unnecessarily due to the flaws of her character. and i hope she her fans continue to support her as well. even on the day when she ends up being a competition to their asli fav.

[ouyangzizhensdad]

Unpopular opinion: stumbling upon something that you were utterly unprepared for, stunned by, and/or comprehended only long in retrospect, is an archetypal experience of the precociously literate child.

Somewhat agree? Okay it’s a long one.

Since I’m getting this opinion on a fandom blog, I am guessing it might have to do with fandom discussions and not just the experience of precociously literate children running through libraries. 

As a precocious reader whose method to find things to read for years was literally just to pick a shelf at the library and work my way through it before moving onto another shelf, who went through a huge WWII phase at 12 and 13 and who thought I was smarter and more mature than the kids my age, I did come across, at times, things that I was unprepared for or stunned by. I particularly remember reading The World According to Garp (a novel I took from my older sister even though she told me I was too young to read it--although at the time I thought she meant I would not be smart enough to *get* it, not that it included scenes where a dick gets bitten off during a blowjob), or mistakenly buying what I thought was a shoujo manga which turned out to be a rape-to-love erotic manga because it was plastic-wrapped and it didn’t occur to me that it could be since my local bookstore which had like 10 different manga had never had any erotic ones before, and (more somberly) reading about the Nanjing massacre, or first-hand accounts of the atomic bombs and the scientific experimentations done during WWII and not being emotionally prepared for how horrific humanity is or just how emotionally compromised you can be reading about suffering. I was “haunted” for years by the image of people trapped in a burning building who started singing for strength and whose singing then turned to screams and silence described in (if my memory serves me right) in Nagasaki no kane. 

That being said, in retrospect and through more recent discussions, I have come to realise that I always controlled my exposure to content very naturally and frequently walked away from social situations where I would be exposed to content I did not think wise to see. This might be because my parents were kind of uninvolved in our lives beside providing for our basic needs which made us take over the role of parenting or because I have been impervious to peer pressure from a young age or just because I don’t care about offending people, but I understood instinctively that there were doors that were better left unopened and things better left unseen, regardless of my curiosity. When kids my age started going on Omegle-type websites to be transgressive and seem more mature, once I understood that this could include suddenly seeing an old man jerking off on screen, I simply choose to step away from their family computer and not get involved--the same way I would not drink alcohol at parties when the other kids were because my father was an alcoholic and I were scared I would become one like him. I never watched any of the “shocking” viral videos of my time when I was a teenager regardless of how much my friends or people at school talked about them (from the top of my head I remember two girls one cup, a filmed suicide and i think a bestiality video that included a horse? ~Just little 90s kids things~). In this sense, my youthful desire for maturity did not express itself in the desire to indiscriminately reproduce or access things that were not meant for children, but a sort of independence both forced and desired which required me to take responsibility for myself and my emotional well-being.

And so the thing with fandom content is that, even years and years ago when I was a kid, while it was easy to find or stumble upon content that was not for children, these things were clearly labelled. And so I was very much able to look at a blog, or a summary, and know, regardless of any curiosity I could have: well this is probably not a good idea for me. Or, if I made it by accident to content that was unprepared for, it was easy to just close the window and continue my day. This sort of “agency” negated any possible unpleasantness for me: yes I did see some things that I was unprepared for, but I could just nope away from there and that was the end of it. Thereby, the worst thing that I could be exposed to was the awareness of the existence of a thing, which I don’t think is in itself extremely upsetting or shocking? So my experience in fandom, which started when I was 12, was not defined by being exposed to things I was unprepared for or shocked by, but more defined by me learning to navigate and decide what I was comfortable with consuming.

So that’s where I struggle with more recent discussions wrt social media and fandom spaces (aside from valid criticisms for example about how people post things in fandoms of properties targeted toward children for instance), because there is this increasing sense that things should simply not exist if they could potentially be shocking to teenagers and children, or hell, the idea that fiction should not include anything slightly problématique/shocking that requires critical thinking/emotional maturity when you consume it. I’m forever shocked to see teenagers blaming adults for producing content they willfully consumed: I keep thinking of this person who has an horror blog who kept receiving attacks from teenagers blaming them for having given them panic attacks because they posted horror stuff... on a horror blog. 

And, I will admit, it’s harder for me to engage with these discussions because I can’t put myself in the shoes of a teenager (or even sometimes young adult) who lets their curiosity or immaturity or whatever else impulse make them engage and continue to engage with content that is upsetting or harmful to them. I just can’t--I can’t stretch my imagination that far. My gut reaction is not even to say that it is a parent’s job to monitor their kids’ use of the internet, because from my own perspective parents were never even part of that equation. But I do believe that while the argument that content meant to be consumed by adults (either because of the complexity of the subject matter or because of its sexual nature) should not be made or shared on the interwebs To Protect the Children is incredibly exhausting, precociously literate kids or teenagers on the interwebs should not have to have their experiences defined by constantly being exposed to content they were unprepared for, shocked by or are not able to fully process. 

Although, to be again perfectly candid, I am admittedly less worried about kids stumbling upon porn by accident (which is easy to recognise and which they can exit from easily with a click or by scrolling down) than I am by the existence of internet communities that encourage cult-like behaviours or aggression and bullying, or by the existence of seemingly “harmless” content that can lead to incredibly damaging behaviours (like all the “fitspo” and “detox tea” and “what to eat in a day to lose weight” kind of content that 100 percent encourage and create ED behaviours). Those things are more difficult to recognize as potentially upsetting or harmful than a lot of other stuff that kids should not interact with.

[equalseleventhirds]

i mean, my 2 cents as both a poc and one of the people who like... accidentally started a lot of discussion about this

i don't think that the solution to this is to redesign jon to be universally portrayed by fandom as white; like op said, the real problem lies in canon refusing to give a race to a character played by a white man, but what fans do and what canon does is different. and it's become such an established part of fanon to have brown jon that entirely walking that back now is kinda shitty (and tbh, inasmuch as we do have to deal with 'aracial' characters, i think having designs of a wide variety of races is probably better than any one universal design, just for like.......... not establishing a universal fanon. i hate universal fanon in general, but this one's caused... issues.)

certainly i would not ask you, anon, to undo your designs of jon, especially bcos you're a poc. like, if you are uncritically following the 'vaguely brown but no stated race/ethnicity' thing a lot of fans do, it might be best to like... do some thinking about that. but i think a lot of poc recognize that there are cultural differences, and especially those of us that project onto characters (hi, yes, filipino!martin my beloved) tend to like. do something specific with that. instead of 'ah yes look We Draw Vaguely Brown People, good rep!' like a lot of white fans do.

similarly, if you, anon, are prepared to really fully explore the deep and specific horror of what it would be like for sasha as a poc to be replaced by a white person? obviously warn for it, and think hard about it, but that is a valid take on it. the issue a lot of people were mostly having was that white people would do it ~for the aesthetics~ and not even seem like, aware of the extremely specific horror this is for people of color. definitely be careful about it, but i've seen it done with care a couple of times by actual poc. (i would hesitate to tell white ppl to do this, even with a sensitivity reader, just bcos it is so very much not like... a white person's place to be telling the story of a poc who has her life stolen by a white person? i mean, i'm sure it could be done? but talk abt like, irony & poor taste.)

(also, if you make sasha and not!sasha both poc and the same race, it doesn't really read as a racist joke??? like, we know what the not!them does. we know characters haven't forgotten sasha bcos they're racist. 'someone could interpret this as racist if they really really reached' is kinda... look, i've recently had white ppl say i was racist for saying white ppl who repeatedly tell accidentally-racist stories should maybe steer clear of those stories for a while, ppl will stretch to ANYTHING. do your research and try your best, and most people will engage in good faith.)

but mostly what we've been asking of white fans (of all fans, frankly, but it's white fans who are most egregious) is to a. think critically about how they portray race in fanworks, and b. think critically about portrayals of race in canon, and how changes in race can change the actual messages of the work. and 'think critically' doesn't mean 'criticize this and then never ever do it', it just means! think really hard about it! analyze it and figure out what messages are being sent, both by canon and by fanworks! (this includes messages about race, messages about the overall themes about power and privilege, AND like, unintentional advertising that comes from fandom.)

like, i feel like tone has been less 'never ever portray aracial characters as poc EVER', but more 'think really hard about what you're actually doing, and listen to poc when you fuck up'. there are good, thoughtful, nuanced ways of portraying a bunch of different headcanons. we've mostly just been asking that people take the time to like, do that, instead of using poc as an aesthetic.

(also wrt you can't whitewash fanon: you can't whitewash fanon. if you portray sasha and not!sasha as white, no one can tell you you're whitewashing. well, obviously people can, but it's fucking bullshit?

in fact, cards on the table, i think more fans should engage with what a white jon would mean for the messages in tma and how they interpret his character. not really walk back all their fanart/fanfic/etc of brown jon, but take some time and think about the text itself, fanworks put entirely aside, and what it would mean if we saw jon's actions as coming from someone who looked like jonny sims. how we'd feel about how he treats annabelle and mikaele and oliver and even jude perry. how we'd feel about his power in the apocalypse and even his actions as a boss in early seasons. etc etc etc.

this is entirely separate from fan creations and is mostly abt like, my constant urging for people to separate critical analysis of canon from What Is Good Fun in fandom; tma as it is SHOULD make ppl slightly uncomfortable, especially white ppl forced to confront some Stuff about privilege. but also if you do this, when you come back to making fun headcanons and fanworks, think also about what your race/ethnicity headcanon for jon changes about how you treat him, compared to how you'd treat him if he were white. like, i've seen some stuff where ppl make other characters absolutely tear into jon for being a privileged dick... while also portraying jon as a poc and those other characters as white. like, his race changing DOES change some of the dynamics, u kno?)

I've seen a lot of discussions about the implications of drawing jon as brown and i figured you'd be the person to talk to about this? (you can ignore this if you don't feel like replying!!) so here's the thing - I'm brown and i really like brown jon. i like being able to project onto that. but yeah i think i get what everyone means when they point out things that are wrong with that. but on the flip side, white jon designs are a minority and it would also be weird to suddenly revert to drawing him as white, i somehow feel like that could also have implications. also I've lived through the age of white Cecil and that wasn't very great either.

which got me thinking - while i completely agree with the criticisms about the fanon designs, there isn't a clear solution to any as far as i can see? having both sasha and not-sasha be of the same ethnicity could be interpreted as the racist joke where white people can't tell poc apart. having them both be white would feel like I'm whitewashing the fanon designs which is completely stupid because they're FANON but i hope you understand what i mean? anyway ghfhdgs i hope this doesn't come off as combative, I've just been trying to figure these out for days and wondered if someone else had an answer. have a nice day!

I'm going to give limited opinions here because while it's nice you thought of me, I'm a white teenager and while I have extensive TMA and TMA Fan knowledge I am definitely not who should be giving The TakesTM on stuff like this.

I do actually remember the days where white Jon was the most common, and the shift to ~ambiguously brown Jon~, at least to what I saw, definitely took over art far faster than it did fics. Which to me implies it was on a very aesthetics based level rather than one of exploring what the text would be like with him as a POC, let alone any one specific ethnicity, which is obviously very emblematic of a lot of the problems of people just copying off the guy next to them's art and going "Look it's Jon, we can all recognise that it's him because he's got the same 3 or so traits each time" without thinking about how that actually reflects on their interpretation of the text. But, exactly as you said, it would be weird to suddenly have those artists redesign him as white. So I'm not sure if there's an actual answer there, at least not one that I can give? Something that fans can't even be entirely blamed for, because of course that kind of shit is going to happen if you have a white man write and play a character and then refuse to give that character a canonical race. It's going to become messy and it's just easier to write with a character's race in mind.

I get what you mean with Sasha/Not!Sasha and from what I've heard others say it's best to keep them the same ethnicity, but I don't think you can really white wash a fan design since it's a fan thing and white washing implies a sense of canon? I haven't heard anyone bring up the "white people can't tell POC apart" thing but I would assume that would only be a problem if you Sasha design was the only POC in the archives.

But again, I'm white so nothing I say here should be taken as instructional so if any POC want to add on with their opinions please feel free to do so.