#then s5 starts doing the emotional internal parallels more so | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

variousqueerthings · 1 year ago

Text

AND LAST OF S5: THE BIG BANG

Soooooo I don't dislike it. All the kid!Amy stuff I really really like even!

but does it stick the landing?

sexism rank objectification (female character is ogled/harassed/turned into a sex joke by the doctor and/or a lead we’re supposed to root for and/or the camera): 7/10

sexism rank plot-point (lead female character is only there to serve plot, not to have her emotional interiority explored, or having her emotional agency ignored by the plot): 5/10

interesting complex or pointlessly complex (does the complexity serve the narrative or does it just serve to be confusing as a stand-in for smart, this includes visually): 6/10

furthers character and/or lore and/or plot development (broader question that ties into the previous ones, at least two of these, ideally three should be fulfilled): 7/10

companion matters (the companion doesn’t always have to be there, but if the companion is there, can they function without the doctor– and overall per season how often is the companion the focus or POV of the story): 3/10

the doctor is more than just “godlike” (examines the doctor’s flaws and limitations, doesn’t solve a plot by having it revolve entirely around the doctor’s existence): 5/10

doesn’t look down on previous doctor who (by erasing or mocking its importance, by redoing and “bettering” previous beloved plotpoints or characters, etc.): 6/10

isn’t trying to insert hamfisted sexiness (m*ffat famously talked a lot about how dw should be sexier multiple times, he sucks at writing it): 5/10

internal world has consistency (characters have backgrounds, feel rooted in a place with other people, generally feel like they have Lives): 6/10

Politics (how conservative is the story): 6/10

FULL RATING: 56/100 (if I can count….)

Better than Pandorica Opens!

OBJECTIFICATION: Not too bad, good start. Amy is wearing (most of the time) the same outfit as last episode, and River is also just vibing

PLOT-POINT: This episode is ostensibly all about Amelia Pond's first Moment with the Doctor as an eye of the storm, and I like that

but Amy never really talks about it or does anything related to it. she does have a bit where she says she doesn't regret their journeying, but for some reason she's the main person who never really seems to... feel anything about it, like actually this genuinely was sorted back in end episode 1 for her

and the whole purpose of her having had this encounter is to bring the Doctor back from non-existence. there's a version of this story, where Amy's conflicted feelings about being abandoned, and even tbh about marriage are at the centre of the conflict

River is just there to be mysterious, you'll see later what's going on with her... maybe...

COMPLEXITY: A lot of forwards and backwards in time and the Tardis is exploding and we still don't know why, in the end they're baaasically running through a museum and the Doctor hooks himself up to the Pandorica and yeets himself into the heart of the storm

It's not egregious/it's possible to follow... there are unanswered questions.....

I also think it's hilarious that after all that supposed set-up, Rory just... takes him out of the box again. Into the box and out of the box

CHARACTERS/LORE/PLOT: I need to ruminate on this a bit. getting married as plot is not a bad thing. I'm not a massive fan of the Amy/Rory romance and how it progressed (mainly because it mostly didn't and then suddenly shifted into a slightly different parallel universe where they're madly in love), so I'm not sold on Amy's adultness being centred in marriage

but this is not only a M*ffat thing. this show is very based in alloromance. it's just whether it makes sense that Amy... wants this... or if the plot just decided that now she does

do I think characters got closer? kinda yeah. Amy and Rory are married now, even though Rory is still characterised as permanently unsure of where he stands with Amy's "moods" (angry moods, sexual moods, sad moods, etc)

Rory: Are you okay? Amy: Are you? Rory: No Amy: Well shut up then!

I was kinda struck by how venomous she was at him, and then they hug and it's fine, but that's kind of what it feels like between them a lot of the time

Amy: are you just saying yes, because you’re scared of me? Rory:... yep

anyway, it changes things for the next season perhaps, now they are firmly married and not in the "will Amy or won't she" boat

and the Doctor came to the wedding! didn't disappear when he was called!

there is plot To Come that is set up... why did the Tardis explode? what is the Silence?

COMPANIONS MATTER: they're there for most of it, there's this whole backstory of Rory protecting the Pandorica for 2000 years, which is the basis of Rory and Amy now being this epic romance, and taken on its own it's pretty cool

Amy is there to experience things happening, so that she can remember it later on, and then she gets married, because in the end all of s5 is centred around the Marriage Of The Ponds and Amy learning that she can grow up (get married) and have adventures with the Doctor and those things don't cancel each other out

the Doctor does things and they all follow

“GODLIKE” DOCTOR: eh, the Doctor solves everything and everyone's just tagging along, but I like the "we're all just stories in the end" bit. the Doctor is also just a story

PREVIOUS DOCTOR WHO: not much of previous Doctor Who in this so... not terrible technically

“SEXINESS”: Why is Amy doing her whole "I'm gonna snog the Doctor" schtick? There's this bit also where she and Rory make out for ages and the camera lingers on it, because now they're passionate lovers, and fine, I guess, it's not the worst thing M*ffat has done

I am deciding to add River's whole... making the Dalek say Mercy. it's kind of a fantasy badass moment where she's being badass with a gun

and here I'm unsure whether to put Amy making Rory afraid or not, because it's definitely a M*ffat fantasy, but it also relates to Amy's whole... why this a good relationship? anyway. we'll put it here, because I'm sleepy, fuckit

Amy sauntering up to the Doctor and saying "We haven’t even had a snog in the shrubbery yet" is unfortunately just. it's in my brain

INTERNAL WORLD: we've met Amy's aunt! in that other world where the stars don't exist and the Universe is ending. and we've met Amy's parents! (wonder if we'll see them again)

it's kind of rebuilding things after episode 1 already gave us something of her life, but none of those character reappear. it's also hard not to know what comes next, which is.... nothing with any of this

especially considering Amy not remembering her parents is presented as a Big Deal in this episode, so her life is now straightened out (I was going to say normalised or returned to the ideal status quo, and realised all three of these are hiding the truth, which is that Amy's life is normative now -- she got married at last, and she has two parents like Normal)

POLITICS: Nothing much one way or another in this

FULL RATING: 56/100 (if I can count….)

I think this episode is defined by being not the worst of the season. It's strongest suit is not being super offensive, but it's also not extraordinary. Its weakness is in the companions again. Are they there to experience the Doctor doing cool stuff, or are they there to have narratives centred around them? How does Amy feel about her entire existence being bait? About being helpless to do anything in this whole thing that revolves in some way around her memories? she just kind of bounces into whatever the plot needs someone to do, never being particularly affected by what came before

#im watching nu!who #im watching eleven who #im watching the big bang #the measurement

6 notes · View notes

toiletguy04 · 3 years ago

Text

I think people should read this especially in this mainstream fandom where internalized or even blatant homophobia are still somehow relevant. Basically the vid talks a lot about capitalism towards queer people which includes "Queerbaiting" and how it runs in the show to loot on gay ppl.

It's real tho, people have been calling Bylers delusional because we're apparently making Mike gay even though he's "straight" as if an obvious subtext that can be seen throughout the whole series isn't real. I'm not saying it's intentional, probably a little, but I'm sure it's 100% implied since one character (Will) has already been identified gay. We need to see Mike and Will romantically for us to establish Will's lovely admiration for Mike. However, in doing so, we can also see how much they made Mike care so much about Will and the complete contrast of it from the main "straight couple" melvin. You can't even deny it. It's always parallel. The Byler rain fight vs the "I dump your ass" melvin breakup. The "You care but you don't love me anymore?" "Who said I didn't?" Vs the "It's hawkins, it's not the same without you". Like somehow, Mike is always torn between the two. And if all of them were only for Will's own romantic "unrequited" plotline, then I can see it. But the problem is how it affected the main couple. Cause if they're planning on making them the "end game", then the byler bits shouldn't be as special as that, but based on their— god forbid— heart to heart sceneSSS and tender emotional musics, which happened more than once btw (*insert homophobic dog stare*) it's almost as if they're selling Byler to the audience. Like "Here, Will is beautifully in love with Mike and we can see how different Mike is with Will than with El and also did you see how selflessly Will gave up his love for Mike just so he and Eleven can get back together? 🥺". Tell me I'm wrong. I also saw a tiktok once explaining why we loved Will despite his little appearance in the first season. The person said that we were unknowingly drawn to Will because the Duffers established his character from the very start as this honest quiet kid who cannot lie "It's seven, the demogorgon, it got me ", it got us rooting for him. That's the first thought that came in my head during the van scene. Will's selflessness got us bawling our eyes out because he literally helped rebuild Melvin. And even though it's heartbreaking, it gave us more reason to love Will Byers. The question is... for what?

Now, realistically (the most realistic aka society-approved outcome I can think of), Byler won't happen. Since the duffer bros also stated they won't be focusing on their character's lovelife for s5 hence it was all cramped during the last volume. Will's "ripping off the bandaid" (although the script was apparently fake, the possibility of Will really letting go of Mike can still be real), Mike finally saying I Love you. But if they're not planning on making it endgame then it's pure... bullshit? Like what do you mean? You're going to leave us broken over Will's unrequited love? Eleven's indifference during the last episode was because of nothing? Obviously there's something MORE.

If you really think about it, they could've ended the episode with a more clear path on where they're planning to steer their character for the next season. Watch Will looking at them from afar as Mike and El hold hands like THE REST OF THE COUPLES. Because isn't that what they're supposedly trying to show us because of the Van scene and Mike's monologue? Melvin endgame, Will sad gay pining. Shouldn't El and Mike be unbearably sappy comforting each other because they love each other and no matter what happens, Mike would always be with her because he "loves" her and he's scared to lose her especially since he was so close to also losing El back there? But why didn't they? It's so easy to just simply show us that Melvin is happy, Will is happy for them if they won't be focusing on their character's lovelife for the next season? But they didn't?

It was left open-ended, Mike and Will at the end, El ahead of them, flowers decaying, the Hawkins' downfall, the subtext, the implications, you can't blame Bylers if we believe it'll be endgame because that ending was SERVED in front of us. The potential, the possibility, that at this point if all those evidences or subtexts were for nothing then what was that for? "Queerbaiting"? Wasted potential? Shitty writing?

Idk dude but one thing's for sure, we ain't delusional for reading into the subtext, for eating up the possibility of byler endgame. I honestly dk what the duffers are planning about the romantic plotlines of their characters but there's also a possibility they would break everyone up. Specially since Finn also stated something about leaving hawkins and such. But as I see it, I think Melvin would indeed breakup, and Byler won't get together BUT I believe they'll be HEAVILY implied in the last episode (maybe, hopefully). I mean, there are huge confrontations that'll happen specially with Will's lie alshxjshsjd I believe they wouldn't just... leave it there? 🤭 But yeah, idk, the duffer bro somehow still manages to surprise (or sometimes disappoint honestly) me everytime so 😔

Anyways yeah, that was so long, just venting cause I'm tired of people saying we're wrong and weird for making everyone gay as if it's our fault it was implied like, you really think we would be hellbent on proving a character is gay if they're straight just for fun??? 😭 Make it make sense??? Anyways bye, byler canon period.

#byler #mike wheeler i know what you are

11 notes · View notes

twdmusicboxmystery · 4 years ago

Text

Cabin Theory 2.0

Okay, so here’s my Cabin Theory 2.0. I’ve been wanting to revisit this since I did my 5x09 post a few weeks ago. I realized that the cabin Tyreese stays in with Baby Judith and Martin in 5x01, and the picture of the cabin in 5x09, were probably related. So, I’m going to list the cabins we’ve seen and then talk about similarities between them to try and figure out what this symbol means in the show. You’ll see that there are some interesting implications for the Leah situation.

1. S3 – Rick, Daryl, Michonne, and co run from walkers into a tiny cabin where they find a guy sleeping in there and Rick ultimately kills him. There’s also a dead dog in the cabin, so we’ve long attributed this to early Sirius symbolism.

2. 4x07 – The cabin the Governor and his pals stayed in with all the Native American symbols in it.

3. 4x12 – The Moonshine Shack. I honestly wasn’t sure this one fit the pattern of the others, at first, and wasn’t sure what to do with that. But upon closer inspection, it does. No worries. I’ll talk about it.

4. 4x14 – The cabin Tyreese, Carol, Lizzie, and Mica stayed in, and where Lizzie and Mica died.

5. 5x01 – The cabin Tyreese, Martin, and Baby Judith stayed in while Carol rescued everyone at Terminus.

6. (Not in the show yet, but there’s also the cabin where Emily filmed that we believe will be part of the missing 17 days.)

7. 5x09 – The picture of the cabin in the room where Ty is bitten, that gets blood dripped on it.

8. 6x04 – Eastman’s cabin, where Morgan spends a lot of time in that episode.

9. 7x03 – The cabin Carol lives in after she leaves the Kingdom but before AOW starts.

10. 7x11 – Dwight and Sherry’s old cabin where she leaves her rings and a note for him.

11. 8x11 – The cabin that Father Gabriel and Dr. Carson stay in briefly before being recaptured by the Saviors and Carson’s death. This episode and cabin are chalk full of Beth symbolism.

12. 9x5 - Cabin Rick stops by before he’s blown off the bridge. This was an extremely minor detail, but probably parallels well with Beth’s cabins, and it was purposely placed in the sequence.

13. Leah’s cabin (to be seen in bonus episodes).

I’ve probably missed a few minor instances. I think Aaron was at one this past season briefly, and there’s the place Alpha was killed, and where Negan stashed Lydia. But these are the major ones. And for only 10 seasons, this symbol crops up a LOT.

Okay, a couple of notes before I go on. I’m not going to talk about the cabin from the missing 17 days because we haven’t actually seen that and don’t know what goes on there. So I can’t say if it fits this pattern or not, though I suspect it does. Same with the cabin in Ty’s death scene, which is technically a picture, not an actual cabin. I believe that cabin is a symbol for Beth’s cabin (the one from the missing 17 days) so they are probably synonymous and not knowing what happened there applies to both. Just FYI.

So here are the similarities I’m seeing in different instances:

1. A character staying in the cabin is wrestling with some kind of internal turmoil or conflict. There is often more than once character involved, and both can be wrestling with things, but more often it’s the member of TF or more mainstream character that the cabin is about. If there’s only one character in the cabin, obviously it’s about them. (Don’t worry; I’ll give examples). Their conflict often revolves around an identity crisis of some kind. Who they are, who they want to be, who they will become, etc.

2. Death is involved. Either someone dies in or around the cabin while the character is staying there, or what happens there leads to someone’s death.

3. I honestly think the cabin is the beginning of a character journey or arc. Generally it results in something negative that happens, that the character feels guilt over. Sometimes this is synonymous with the death I mentioned above, but sometimes they’re two different things as well.

4. The character will spend the rest of that journey or arc trying to overcome that thing they’re feeling guilty over. Once they’ve accepted and/or forgiven themselves for it, the arc ends.

5. In each situation, there is a return involved. Either the character returns to someone, or someone returns to them.

So, let’s go through these again.

S3 Cabin: I give slightly shorter shrift to this one, only because it’s S3 and Gimple wasn’t in charge, yet. That said, it does check most of the criteria. The conflict there was short lived. It was weather to kill the guy or not because he was being loud and putting everyone’s life in danger. So there’s the death. I don’t think anyone felt overly guilty about it. However, in terms of character arcs, especially with the dead dog, what we see right after this is Daryl reuniting with Merle for the first time since he disappeared in S1. So we definitely have a return. Soon after is the episode “Home,” where Daryl comes to realize where he really belongs. And those are all themes we see around Beth. Just saying. So, return = Merle.

Overall, it doesn’t fit everything, but again, with Gimple only being a junior writer on the show back then, it may have just been less heavy-handed than most of these other examples.

4x07- Gov’s cabin: This was more or less the beginning of him returning to brutality which ends with him bulldozing the prison and losing his own life. Plenty of death comes out of it, including that of his own men and Hershel. His turmoil is about whether he’ll continue to be “Brian” or go back to being the Governor. His arc ends when Rick/Michonne/Lily kill him at the prison. That’s the return. Also, he’s been gone from the prison and TF for months and presumed dead. This is the beginning of his return to their lives.

4x12 – Moonshine Shack: As I said, at first I didn’t think it fit the pattern, because it didn’t end up being terribly negative. No death came directly out of it. But I think this was kind of the mother of all cabins. It was a much longer game, so it took a lot longer to see the entire pattern.

The emotional turmoil in this episode is extremely obvious, especially to our fandom, so I’ll leave it at that. The real trick is that there isn’t any immediate death that comes out of it. In this case, I believe its Beth’s “death” that comes out of it. We don’t often link that directly to the moonshine shack, but I believe the writers do. Everything is cause and effect for them. I think the emotional breakthroughs she had with Daryl led to her being stronger, wanting to stand up to Dawn, and that led to her getting shot. And that is obviously the negative thing Daryl then feels guilty about.

You could argue this arc ended with Coda, though most of us know better. When Daryl looked at Glenn’s painting with Lydia, he smiled, which shows that he’s forgiven himself for that. But his smile still slipped when he looked at Beth. So for Daryl, nothing’s over yet.

4x14 – Carol, Ty, Lizzie, Mica: The deaths here are obviously Lizzie and Mica’s, and they occurred at the cabin itself. Obviously that’s the negative thing both Carol and Ty felt super guilty about. But what was Carol wrestling with here, before the deaths? It was her guilt over killing Karen. She needed to come clean with Ty. This was the beginning of her journey that didn’t end, imo, until she saved Henry and married Ezekiel. That’s when she finally forgave herself for all the children who have died around her, including Sophia, Lizzie, Mica, and Sam. The return is a little muddled here, but what happens at the cabin prompts them to leave, which helps them return to TF, rather than stay apart from them. So it leads to reunions.

5x01 – The cabin Tyreese, Martin, and Baby Judith stayed in while Carol rescued everyone at Terminus. This is the instance that helped me figure all this out, and I covered it in some detail in my 5x09 post. In the cabin in 5x01, Martin was razzing Ty about being a “good” guy who saves babies. He kept saying that being good like that would bring death, and Ty didn’t want to accept that. So his turmoil was about whether to stay a good guy, or become more brutal and kill Martin. See? Identity crisis. He ends up leaving Martin alive and lying to Carol about it (for which he’ll later feel guilty) and this leads to Bob’s death. His arc, obviously, ended in 5x09 when he forgave himself, and then succumbed to the walker bite. TF returns at the end of this episode and Sasha and Tyreese reunite.

6x04 – Eastman’s cabin, where Morgan spends a lot of time in that episode. This one is about Morgan. He’s obviously wrestling with himself and his dogma throughout the entire episode. He’s still in his crazy state of mind at the beginning, but Eastman helps heal him. The death is Eastman’s himself, and Morgan does have some guilt about it. (There’s also Tabitha the goat.) This is the beginning of the Morgan we see in S5 on, where he follows Eastman’s philosophies. I honestly think this arc has ended now, as he has slightly different beliefs now, in Fear. At the end, Morgan begins his journey to return to Rick.

7x03 - The cabin Carol lives in after she leaves the Kingdom but before AOW starts. Here, Carol is wrestling with the deaths of the children around her. This is slightly different than in 4x14. Remember there, I said she was wrestling with the fact that she’d killed Karen and David. But her guilt over the children started there. Here, it just continues. The death is Benjamin’s (Henry’s older brother). Remember, Zeke brings him to her when he gets shot, and he dies on her kitchen table. Her guilt, though, comes less from his death and more from Abraham’s and Glenn’s. When Morgan tells her about them, you can tell she feels guilty for not having been there, and it prompts her to go to Ezekiel and join the war effort.

7x11 - Dwight and Sherry’s old cabin where she leaves her rings and a note for him. Dwight is dealing with the loss of Sherry and the fact that he’s become someone she doesn’t recognize anymore. (Identity crisis). Plenty of deaths follow, but the most specific one is that of Dr. Carson at the Sanctuary, who Dwight frames. His guilt comes from following Negan at all, which leads him to turn spy for TF. This guilt arc continues until Daryl lets him go to search for Sherry.

8x11 – The cabin that Father Gabriel and Dr. Carson stay in briefly before being recaptured by the Saviors. This one, most directly, is about Father Gabriel. He’s dealing with physical things (loss of his eyesight) and also a crisis of faith. The death is of Dr. Carson, who dies outside the cabin at the end. This arc, for Gabriel, lasts, I believe, until he becomes the stronger, more confident leader we see now. Back when Jadis and Rick disappeared, he hadn’t become the man he is now, yet. It must have happened sometime during the 6 year time jump. Which is interesting, given that he found love in that time. (I have an Ask in my inbox about this and how Gabriel and Rosita are actually a foreshadow of Beth and Daryl. Stay tuned for that.

Okay, so let’s just recognize that, especially as there are return symbols around all of these, massive Beth symbolism at most of them, and a cabin in the missing scenes from S5, this is obviously a Beth thing. I think the cabin we see when they finally show us those missing scenes will symbolize the beginning of Beth’s arc away from TF, which will last until she reunites with them.

9x05 - Rick’s cabin: This obviously represented the big of his journey away from TF and into the CRM. The death and negative events that come out of it are, for now at least, obviously his own. This parallels almost exactly with Beth and the moonshine shack because, in this case, we KNOW he’s alive, but the other members of TF don’t. And of course there will probably be more deaths and negative stuff for him once he’s away from TF, but we haven’t seen any of that, yet.

So how about Leah’s cabin?

Well, it seems obvious what Daryl will be wrestling with: figuring out where he belongs, especially with Rick gone. (Identity crisis). But my question is about the death. Spoilers say Leah has a son who dies, but the spoilers are so muddled and many of them contradict each other, it’s hard to know what will actually happen with that. Will that be a source of guilt for Daryl? Maybe have something to do with the scene in the trailer where he’s screaming? Maybe.

I think it’s equally possible, though, that something about what happens here will reach across to when Leah shows up again and maybe something tragic will happen then. This is what really got me intrigued about this cabin motif. Because yes, it’s true that in some cases (ie. Father Gabriel/Dwight) the deaths that resulted were of minor characters. But MOST of the cabins led to major tragedy for team family, and I’m wondering if the same will be true of the Leah situation. Especially as this concerns Daryl, who is a much more major character than FG or Dwight, I have a hard time believing that the tragedy coming out of it will be limited to the adopted son of a character no one really cares about. I’m just saying.

Of course this is all conjecture until we see the episode (and possibly S11). But it’s something to chew on. And it kind of feeds in to the question of whether or not Leah may end up being villainous. I’ll conjecture more about that in a day or two. ;D

Thoughts?

#beth greene #beth greene lives #beth is alive #beth is coming #td theory #td theories #team delusional #team defiance #beth is almost here #bethyl

6 notes · View notes

bombshellsandbluebells · 5 years ago

Note

1, 2, 3 and 5 for the female characters top fives?

Thank you!! Okay, listed in no particular order and with short rant included because I couldn’t help myself. So this is long, prepare yourself!

1 - Protagonists

Elizabeth Swann (Pirates of the Caribbean) -

I love her so much. She’s so stubborn and won’t put up with anyone’s shit and is ruthless and is more of a pirate than Jack Sparrow. I love that she longed for the sea and learned about pirates in secret as a kid and then got her own ship and crew and became Pirate King!! And that her story was always about freedom and she got it in the end. I love that Elizabeth doesn’t wait around for Will to save her, but goes out and saves herself and makes her own destiny.

Tohru Honda (Fruits Basket) -

Tohru’s proof that kind/compassionate characters are not boring or less complex. Tohru feels so real; the way she ignores her trauma and grief and hides her issues to try to always appear perfectly selfless and happy is so human and relatable and her journey is really, really interesting. She’s so kind but still has so much room to grow and I honestly see a lot of myself in her.

Emori (The 100) -

I mean most of you already know how much I love Emori, but I LOVE EMORI. She’s such a fun, interesting, unique character with a really interesting backstory and unique challenges to face. I love how smart and manipulative and conniving she is. I love how she doesn’t know how to trust people and has to slowly learn how to be part of a group. I love how insanely loyal she is once she’s found that group. I love that being one part of a romance story didn’t fix all her issues, but finding community and acceptance helped her grow even further. I love that she still loves herself despite what society says about her. I love her look even if the shape and size of her tattoo keeps magically changing.

Annie Edison (Community) -

I love how Annie is ruthless, and I love how that contrasts with the sweet/innocent/naive stereotype she appears to be at first. The more you see of her the more you realize that Annie Edison will steamroller over literally anyone in her path to get what she wants, Jeff included. The hints we get about her backstory and family life are also really intersting, even if the show never really goes into it - probably because it wouldn’t really stay comedic.

Lucretia (The Adventure Zone: Balance) -

It is my mission to get more people to give TAZ a try. It has so many great characters and Lucretia is one of the best. She’s so complicated. Your outlook on her constantly changes. She goes from being a mentor archetype to possibly the antagonist to a tragic hero. She did something terrible to the main characters for good reason and you see the awful affects of it but it’s also made clear why she did it and just how awful she feels about it. She’s such a tragic character and every time I relisten my heart breaks for her more and I just love her.

Also she has some amazing lines like “Hot diggity dog, that is a baller cookie” so how could you not love her.

2 - Villains

A.L.I.E. (The 100) -

She’s probably my favorite villain ever. Every season I want them to bring her back. I’m still bummed s5 didn’t take the PERFECT opportunity they were given. She would be my one weakness to start watching the show again.

Azula (ATLA) -

Azula’s far more threatening than Ozai ever is, and she’s so flawed in such interesting ways. One of my favorite moments of her is the scene where she says, “Are the tides the captain of this ship?” because at first it seems like such a badass, in-control moment, but it honestly reveals just how much Azula’s pride and arrogance hinder her. That’s such a foolish, reckless thing to think, that what you want is above the forces of nature, but Azula is foolish, prideful, and arrogant, even if she is incredibly talented and smart. I think it’s also really interesting how they parallel her decline with Zuko overcoming his trauma, because for most of the series it seemed that Azula only benefited from their upbringing, and then you realize she’s just as messed up from it, just in different ways.

Bellatrix LeStrange (Harry Potter) -

I don’t have a rant for her, she’s really not that complex, she’s just such a fun, terrifying villain and Helena Bohamn Carter plays her to perfection.

Dolores Umbridge (Harry Potter) -

I mean I don’t like her at ALL but we all collectively DESPISED her and that’s just proof of what a great villain she is. When she showed up again in Deathly Hollows I remember just feeling rage as I read it. I was like, her??? AGAIN???

Last one below the cut because major spoilers for Fruits Basket!!!

3 - Superheroes

Nebula (MCU) -

I really love her journey in the MCU from villain to hero. The best parts of Endgame were getting to see her find a group of her own that supported her and learn to have fun and smile.

Natasha Romanoff (MCU) -

I don’t always love how the MCU handled her, but I do like the character the MCU ultimately created, if that makes sense. She’s snarky and kind of dorky and it’s such a contrast from the shallow femme fatale cliche she started as and is usually portrayed as. I love that we get to see some of her weaknesses and fears over the series. I think they screwed up with her narrative a LOT, but I still enjoy the character they ultimately created.

Pepper Potts (MCU) -

Badass business lady turned occasional badass superhero when her husband’s in trouble. I really love her visceral fear of the superhero business and her hatred of it for most of the movies. It makes sense and makes her human that she doesn’t just go along with it.

Raven (Teen Titans) -

Raven was one of my favorite characters as a kid. Apparently I like characters who are isolated but crave community and slowly learn to love others and let that love and acceptance in, because that’s part of what I love about her.

Carol Danvers (616) -

I don’t like Carol in the MCU because of writing/directing reasons, but I love Carol in the comics. I love her “fuck you” attitude that is so at odds with most superheroes and her stubborness and her tendency to punch first, talk later, even when it gets her into trouble. I love that she named her cat after Star Wars and makes really corny jokes.

5 - Queens/Empresses/Royalty

Apparently I don’t watch a lot of shows with queens/royalty, so I’m going to do a grab bag of five other great female characters that come to mind.

Aqua (Kingdom Hearts) -

KH isn’t great at handling it’s female characters, but she’s the one exception. She’s a keyblade master who tried to keep her friends safe and stop the main villain, and she failed! She sacrificed herself trying to save one of her friends, letting herself get trapped in the Realm of Darkness, and the tragic part is that she didn’t even save him. So then she wanders the RoD for 10+ years, alone, being haunted by her fears and doubts and regrets, slowly losing herself. She eventually gets saved and gets a happy ending, but the part of the series exploring her endless wandering is so interesting. She’s a protagonist of a series aimed for kids, but she fails, and she has flaws and doubts and she has parts of herself she doesn’t want to face, and she’s just cool.

Echo (The 100) -

Because I didn’t list her in protagonists. I really fell in love with Echo in s4 when we saw her internal struggle between what was right/just and what was required to protect her clan. She was a great antagonist because we still saw so much of her humanity and now she’s a great protagonist with flaws and desires and self-doubt. And she’s a badass.

Riza Hawkeye (Fullmetal Alchemist) -

Another really interesting, flawed, complex lady. Riza is a soldier who fought in war and her actions during it still haunt her and drive her to push for a better world and country, even if she fully expects and accepts that a better world will punish her for her actions. She’s so interesting.

Judy & Jen (Dead to Me) -

They’re by no means favorite characters of all time, but I do really love both of these characters. They’re just well written and interesting and the conflict between them is really interesting and I just want to include them for being cool female characters.

Furiosa (Mad Max: Fury Road) -

What an awesome character. Her design is cool. Her actress is amazing. Her risking her life to get the wives to safety is fantastic. The way the movie slowly humanizes her more and chips away at her harsh exterior to show the emotions underneath is so good. She’s got a disability and fights around it. She’s great.

Villains (Cont.) below the cut ; spoilers for Fruits Basket

Akito (Fruits Basket) -

I put this under the cut because people are just starting to get into Fruits Basket for the first time and the fact that Akito is even a woman is a major spoiler, because she was raised as male her entire life because she was head of the family. Akito is so unlikeable at first and so awful and manipulative. She takes joy in hurting other people. She has a hand in most of the other characters’ trauma. And then you start learning more and more about her and realize she’s a traumatized, lonely, hurt person and is lashing out. It doesn’t forgive what she’s done, but it humanizes her. She’s a great parallel of Tohru in that they went through very similar trauma and experiences but Tohru had a loving mother who taught her the importance of love and kindness and Akito’s mother was awful and abusive and she learned that the only thing that mattered was power and control. She’s a really interesting character and I honestly still don’t know to feel about her most of the time.

#ask game #thanks!#:)

2 notes · View notes

aprincessofdaxam · 6 years ago

Text

So here's the thing. When the Supergirl S3 finale aired, I absolutely hated it. And it took me nearly a year to be willing to watch it again. Because not only was I just flat-out upset because I ship Karamel and because my two favorite characters were written off the show (although at least they have each other - wait, do you hear that sound? It’s the sound of Imra screaming from the 31st century as Mon-El and Winn drive her nuts) ...

But Mon-El’s final scene? With the speech about how for a minute he thought maybe, just maybe, this was his place? Gutted me. Absolutely gutted me. We all get set off by different things, and I kid you not, that scene gave me a wicked surprise attack of homesickness and I literally cried until 4 a.m. (sometimes I hate you and your emotive acting, Chris Wood).

(complete gifset from @the-karamel-blob here)

But you know what, a year down the pike? I don't hate it. Don’t get me wrong. I'm still pretty bitter about the Karamel bait-and-switch, I still miss our outer space stray puppy terribly, and I call total BS on the "it was always a two-year arc" thing, but I actually think it was a really beautiful and meaningful send-off for Mon-El in that moment.

And anyway, it's been awhile since I've written a literal essay about Mon-El and our space puppies so LET'S CHAT. Novel on the S3 finale beneath the cut, for dash prettiness.

(also included: Why I still think Karamel is endgame, why I think Mon-El will be back, what I really think went down behind the scenes, and what Winn's appearance in S5 might mean)

Tagging @peggystormborn and @facepalming-since-chernobyl because why the heck not, you all like character/plot analysis

When Kara first creates her superhero identity, she spends a LOT of time comparing herself to Clark. And others also compare her to Clark - and she internalizes all of it.

"What, Metropolis gets him, and what does National City get? Some rookie superhero?"

"It's funny - that was the first thing he did. Save a plane, I mean."

"If she's anything like him, she's a hero."

"What are you waiting for? Superman would've blown it out by now!"

"Why do you keep criticizing Supergirl for trying to save the city? When Superman started, it was he, he, he. Him, him, him."

"My cousin didn't have a get-out-of-jail-free card when he first started. Neither should I!"

"I was supposed to be the one saving him, not the other way around. How am I supposed to really become a hero if Superman has to keep saving me?"

"If I was in Metropolis, Clark and I could protect the city and keep each other safe. And there's still so much I want to learn from him."

Now, this isn't about whether it's valid to compare Kara to Clark, or about the layers of problems that come in when you start comparing women to men - that's a whole other essay. It's about Kara's feelings, how Kara defines being a hero, and the standard she feels she needs to live up to as a hero. And since this show is built around Kara, Kara's standard for heroism become the show's definition of it, and the standards the other characters in the show should be held to in their various pursuits of goodness in the world, as well.

And that creates a very interesting comparison between Kara's arc through the first two seasons of the show (S1-S2) and Mon-El's arc in the two seasons he's appeared in thus far (S2-S3).

When Kara starts out in her journey, at the start of S1, she is in this headspace where she is constantly comparing herself to Clark. But she learns so much and accomplishes so much and shows so much strength, that by the end of S2, they have moved her to this point in her hero's journey where she is Clark's equal or superior - not only in terms of physical strength (when she defeats him after Rhea brainwashes him with silver K), but in emotional strength, as she chooses the greater good over her own personal self when she has to let Mon-El go. And her status at that point is by Clark's own admission - the person she was trying to live up to all that time.

"I think it goes far beyond 'the right thing.' I couldn't have done it, Kara. I'm humbled by you. Yeah, I'd like to think that if it came down to a choice between Lois and the world .... but I don't think I could."

So how does that relate to Mon-El's journey? Because there are a lot of parallels between Kara's hard decision at the end of S2, and his hard decision at the end of S3. And if, at the end of S2, we're supposed to see Kara as a fully-realized hero, a true champion, then that's how he's sent off as well (I'd definitely argue that Mon-El showed brave and heroic qualities even in S2, even while on a steep learning curve, but go with me here, because the parallel is really meaningful when you get to it)

Just as Kara held Clark up as her bar for being a hero, Mon-El holds Kara up as his ideal and his definition of a hero when he starts off on his journey - to the point where he eventually founds the Legion in her image.

"And whether we're together or not, being near her, it makes me a better person. It makes me the person that I want to be."

"I think we could all stand to be a little more like you. More optimistic and brave."

"I mean, you do that every day. I don't even understand it. You make it look so easy to do the right thing that you wouldn't even guess that it's that hard. But it's hard. You sacrifice a lot for everyone else, and I know I'm beginning to sound like a broken record here, but I admire you.

"I promise I'm going to be the man that you thought I could be. I promise."

You inspired me. So when I founded the Legion, I chose to use you as an example of what we could be. Of what we aspire to be."

"We base the entire philosophy of the Legion on Supergirl. Have you considered that she might have the right approach here?"

And just as Kara faces that harsh decision at the end of S2 that she needs to give Mon-El up for the greater good, Mon-El faces an identical decision at the end of S3. And, just like Kara (who made a decision Superman himself says he couldn't have made, who is a true champion), Mon-El makes that hard call.

And just as Clark told Kara when she made that hard call that he was humbled by her, validating her admiration of him, Kara gives Mon-El her hero's blessing of his decision, too. Now, I don't think these writers are particularly clever or good at continuity :P But they use the word "admire" so consistently between Karamel that I have to believe it's a deliberate choice. Mon-El tells Kara throughout S2, as he's learning, how much he admires her. And his journey takes him to a place where Kara is able to return that word to him, sincerely and meaningfully.

"There wasn't much to inspire me on Daxam." "What about the prince?" "He wasn't worth admiring. But I wanna be."

"I mean, you do that every day. I don't even understand it. You make it look so easy, to do the right thing that you wouldn't even guess that it's that hard. But it's hard. You sacrifice a lot for everyone else and I know I'm beginning to sound like a broken record here but I admire you."

"You wouldn't be the man you are, if you did. The man I admire so much."

(Tacking on to this because there’s plenty of other things to read and link to here - there was an excellent discussion we had a long time ago about Kara’s emotions and reactions during this scene where @emarasmoak and @i-am-aci01 had some great catches)

The other thing that strikes me as a parallel between Kara and Mon-El in those two season finales is the dissonance between the two of them, who have made the hard, heroic choices, and everyone else.

At the end of S2, everyone seems happy except Kara, who proceeds to isolate herself. Alex and Maggie get engaged. J'onn and M'gann are (temporarily) together. Winn and James are currently successful in their vigilante superhero forays. Clark goes home to Lois.

And at the end of S3? Mostly, our characters are happy. Kara says she's decided where her true home is, but knows her mother is safe. Winn is setting off to the future, where he knows he's important and needed. Imra has her sister back. Alex has her new role and plans to pursue parenthood. J'onn has lost his father, but is setting off on his new path. James reveals himself as Guardian. And Mon-El makes a decision out of duty that guts him. @sweeter-than put it very well: "Everyone else in this episode got an optimistic season’s end coda. Meanwhile, Mon-El is leaving the love of his life to go fight a dangerous war. ... [He] is the only character framed as being separated from his ideal destiny, where the destiny and the obligation have no middle ground."

Now we've talked about what this show wanted to tell us here. Are they saying you can't have it all - which, in Kara's case, is an inherently more complicated discussion because she's a woman? That heroes are always doomed to sacrifice? That work-life balance is a joke?

I think what's MORE IMPORTANT though, and the real message, is what Cat tells Kara (and hell, the title of the S2 finale itself). It applies in both cases. It really applies.

"You, my dear, are on a hero's journey. And yes, you have hit an obstacle, but you will soar right over it."

That's the message.

MOVING ON!

.....

I think that applying that statement to Mon-El is part of why I feel so strongly that his story isn't over yet. Because he's on a hero's journey. The story the show was telling with this character was someone evolving into a hero, someone who is a sympathetic character, someone we're supposed to root for. And how could the final picture of him we have at the moment, where he's so sad and so weighted down, be our final picture of that character? Yeah, the innermost cave, belly of the whale, whatever you want to call it, is part of the hero's journey. But just as Kara goes into those depths and then emerges to find triumph and happiness again, I have to believe they're not going to leave another character they spent so much time investing in that unhappy. We're going to see him again, and they'll give him a happy ending. Or, if they can't work out another appearance for him, because we're talking about real people with a lot of moving parts, we'll get some sort of confirmation he's happy (more on that in a second). They're not going to leave him at loose ends if they can help it.

Now when I talk about them investing in the character - think not just about the storytelling, with this slow burn they had going with Karamel throughout S3, but about the level of promotion during that season, especially the back half. They had Mon-El in the CW midseason sizzle reel, and in a number of promotional posters/photos. They built up to the red-and-blue suit SO MUCH, and why do all of that if it was something you were only going to use for a literal handful of episodes? Some of those pieces of evidence, plus the slow burn/abrupt shift storytelling, plus how open-ended they left things with the relationship, makes me call TOTAL BS on the "it was always a two-season arc thing," and makes me keep believing Karamel is still endgame.

IMHO, Karamel has always been written with that endgame-ish type of storytelling - enemies-to-lovers trope, true love's kiss, spending so much time re-building the relationship between them, etc, etc, etc. You all know what I'm talking about. ((And please note, even though this could be another essay entirely, just because I think they're endgame doesn't mean I think neither character should ever be in another relationship again. I think you LEARN things from every relationship you're in, and Mon-El and Kara were both relatively inexperienced relationship-wise when they got together - Mon-El came from a planet of hedonists where he had flings, not relationships, and Kara had crushes that she couldn't really act on because broken noses, amirite? There were things I genuinely loved about Mon-El and Imra. And I'm not freaked about the possibility of a midgame LI for Kara - it wouldn't lessen my feelings about this being endgame))

Anyway - the story they were telling throughout S3 pointed to Karamel reuniting. They really dialed it up through the final episodes with the robot-cockblocked conversation on Argo (actually everything on Argo - Mon-El with the kid and Kara's heart eyes, the double date, etc, etc, etc), Mon-El pulling out the necklace at opportune moments to remind the viewers he never forgot her, Kara’s multiple conversations with Alura about him (there’s a cut scene from the finale, as well, where Alura tells her that love stories are never simple), Mon-El’s conversation with Winn about not being able to lose her again. They point at it, and then do an abrupt about-face in the finale. I really think that they were heading toward a reunion. We’ll never know exactly what happened behind the scenes, and I know people have different theories, but my gut feeling is that they were discussing behind the scenes whether or not Chris would be back for S4, the writers headed toward their planned ending (a Karamel reunion and a relationship in S4) while hedging their bets with the slow burn, and Chris ultimately made the decision to leave late in the game, and so the writers threw the switch in the finale.

Again, this is entirely me speculating, but I think that Chris made the call to leave not only because he's a multifaceted person who had other behind-the-scenes things he wanted to pursue in the field, but because he walks the walk with his own mental health, and we all know there is a LOT of bullshit that flies around with this show on social media, etc. I'm reading a LOT between the lines here, but the S3 finale aired on June 18, 2018, so I'm assuming they were doing some editing and locking down of the things in May. Chris posted this the first week of May 2019. Excerpts -

"Well look at that: it’s Mental Health Month again! And what interesting timing for me, personally… let’s talk about it. This year has tested me in so many ways." "And while you’re at it, use this occasional toxic and negative platform for something positive and good." "Sending love and kindness to everyone, even the trolliest of trolls out there."

BUT ANYWAY.

Faced with the resources they had and the information they had, the writers still chose to leave things SO OPEN between Karamel. The original draft of the finale - which was shared by @emarasmoak + @snarkymonel ages ago, had a line from Mon-El, “Part of me will always mourn that our paths did not align … But I will always cherish knowing you.” That, to me, suggests a much more FINAL goodbye - and that line was cut, in favor of what we got - where there wasn't really a goodbye, because it might not be one. And the ring and the “In case you ever need me” is definitely a door left WIDE the hell open. The ring is a deus ex machina in case they ever want to use the character again.

My gut feeling - and again, with no inside information - is that Chris didn't want to be a regular anymore, for a number of reasons, but that he didn't leave on bad circumstances, and that he'd be happy to do a guest appearance because he wouldn't be walking into an ONGOING shitstorm (especially if it was something toward the end of the series run).

And regarding the other news we're starting to get about S5: I don't think the fact that Winn and Mon-El left together, and we've heard about Winn coming back but not Mon-El, means he WON'T be back. They could be dribbling out information a bit at a time to keep people interested as a marketing strategy - the Crisis crossover is the most ambitious thing they've EVER done, and you know they'll want to keep ramping up the excitement up all the way from now until December. They could have finished negotiating with Jeremy first while they're still working on Chris for that, or for another event down the line. Supergirl has a lot of "big event" potential coming up, between the crossover, the milestone 100th episode, Melissa's debut as a director, and they've got to be thinking ahead down the line to the eventual end of the series. All of those are things they'll want to really build up excitement for and maybe have some familiar faces around for.

I DO believe that Winn's appearance will tell us something about if, or how, they intend to use Mon-El again at any point, however. Look, the two of them are close. I wasn't that cranky when Brainy didn't mention Mon-El much last season - I got the impression they were more coworkers than friends, things were tense between them for a solid chunk of time over Brainy's role in Imra's secret plan, and then there was some SERIOUS snark thrown between them in the S3 finale in a cut scene (as for Brainy's one mention of Mon-El and his comment about "microagressions," we all dissected that here). I will be cranky if Winn, who has always been a close friend to Mon-El and is coming directly back to the story from working with Mon-El, doesn't mention him. But again, I think that mention will tell us a lot about the future of the character. He could tell the Superfriends (and thus, the audience) that Mon-El has reconciled with Imra, or has moved on to someone else (side note - in the comic canon, Mon-El's pet name for ShadowLass is "Shady" and I think that's adorable). He could even have some sort of tragic news about him, which seems less probable to me, because why go through the trouble of bringing him back from the dead in the S3 finale and then leaving things so open-ended if you were going to kill him offscreen? On the other hand, if Winn tells Kara Mon-El says hey, or he misses you (she misses him too!) or if they have some sort of heartfelt conversation about him, then that's obviously a positive sign.

I mean, who am I kidding, I have epic trust issues from their bait-and-switch with this story and I don’t trust any of the writers/showrunners as far as I can throw them and I am about three inches from FLIPPING OUT over this entire situation :P But I don’t feel so bad after some deep analysis.

#mon-el #mon-el defense squad #otp: comets #karamel #chris wood #supergirl #supergirl speculation #and all that jazz

56 notes · View notes

twdmusicboxmystery · 5 years ago

Text

Carol’s Circular Arc and How it Points to Beth’s Imminent Return

Okay, let’s talk about how Carol’s arc fits into all of this. Because she does, and in a big way. We’ve seen Beth/Carol parallels for years and known they were significant. They’re finally starting to come together for us in a way that makes tons of sense. (Yes, I’m aware that I say that sort of thing a lot, but when I say it, it IS generally true. ;D)

Okay, so I’m going to talk about how we’re seeing a replay of Carol’s S4/S5 mentality right now, and also the Tom Sawyer theme, and how all of that points to Beth’s imminent return.

So right now, Carol’s mentality is a combination of what it was during 4a and 5a. 4a because she’s being homicidal, immoral, and taking things into her own hands in a way that’s hurtful to other people. Just as she did when she decided to kill Karen and David in order to protect people at the prison.

Of course, at that point, she hadn’t recently lost any children. Not since Sophia. In 5a, she still had that mentality, but she had also lost Lizzie and Mika and was dealing with immense guilt over that situation. Now, in S10, we’re seeing a combination of the two. She’s got that same mentality, and she’s dealing with the loss of Henry. Basically, she’s more messed up than she’s ever been.

In terms of parallels to S5, I’ve already said I saw similarities between this episode and Consumed. That comes mostly from her and Daryl’s interaction and the mood of the episode. In both episodes, Carol is being dark and broody and Daryl can tell she’s in pain. He wants and tries to help, but she’s not terribly receptive to him.

So there’s some evidence that this season can be paralleled to S5. (And I’ve already talked about how I think Carol and Daryl will leave together to go find Connie at some point, which would equate to them going to search for Beth in S5.)

But there’s more, Grasshopper. Much more.

Let’s return to the scene I talked about the other day from 5x07, when Beth went into Edwards’ office and we had the 10:40 clock in the background. Remember how I said that Beth went into Edwards’ office to ask him what medicine was necessary to save Carol. That line really rang in my head when I thought it.

What medicine is necessary to save Carol.

Interesting. Because there’s a lot going on with Carol at the moment in the show. You might even say she’s sick or injured. Not physically, but emotionally/psychologically. She’s certainly not in a super healthy positive place, right?

So we have two things that play into this in my mind:

The first is Carol crying and feeling super guilty after the explosion happens. When Daryl tries to walk away, she begs him to tell her that it’s all her fault, saying, “you cared about her, and she’s GONE, and it’s all my fault.” So it sounds like Carol’s guilt is less about herself or even about Connie (though they’ve shown us that she and Connie are friends) than it is about another woman Daryl cares about is gone from his life. And this time it’s very much her fault.

In Carol’s mind, she has to be equating this to him losing Beth. Probably yet another reason they had that convo early on where she encouraged him to pursue Connie.

What does that equate to? It’s hard to say, but I don’t think Carol had a lot of guilt about Beth being shot. From what we saw in Coda, it’s not terribly logical to say it was Carol’s fault in any way. However, there ARE those missing 17 days. And Father Gabriel yelled at Sasha about how the group had “sacrificed one of their own.” Plus he turned them in to Deanna, telling her they were evil and equating them with Satan. So it’s possible Carol has some guilt over SOMEthing that happened with Beth, but we don’t know/haven’t seen what it is, yet.

@frangipanilove has a whole theory—which I’m sure she’ll post eventually—about Rick and Carol lying to Daryl about something to do with Beth, and she has some good evidence for it.

Another aspect to point out. We have a precedent for Carol talking about one thing but meaning another, especially when it comes to her own guilt. I’ve pointed this out before in regards to The Grove. When talking about Lizzie, she says things like, “She’s too dangerous to be around other people. I should have seen it.” And while she IS referring to Lizzie as far as Tyrese is concerned, the fact that she keeps trying to leave the group after that shows she’s also referring to herself. She’s decided that she’s too toxic to be around other people, especially children, because they always die around her.

So the theory has been put forth that when Carol is begging Daryl to tell her it’s her fault, she’s talking about this incident in the mine with Connie, but she may also be referring to something having to do with Beth. Her guilt is SO strong here because this isn’t the first time something like this has happened.

The second thing that plays into this has to do with the dynamite and how it explodes.

When Daryl asks Carol to abandon her plan come back with him, she reaches for the dynamite, and drops it. Whether she meant it to or not, it sort of went off by accident. I want to connect that “accident” to something in S5: Carol being hit by the car.

That may sound random, but think of it this way. Carol wasn’t being overly-vigilant and she was hit by the car and taken to Grady. By being there, she automatically gave Dawn a second (third, if you count Noah) victim to leverage against Rick. If it had only been Beth they were trading for the two officers would have been enough to offset her and Noah leaving, and Beth may not have been shot. So I’m really not criticizing Carol for being hit by the car (not her fault) but it did lead to Beth’s “death” and death fake out, due to carelessness.

A lot like her dynamite stunt led to Connie’s. (Though admittedly, she was much ore to blame this time.)

Now back to the clock scene where Beth needs to know what medicine to use to save Carol.

We (both TD and the GA) have talked a lot in the past about the unreality of Carol’s miraculous recovery at Grady, when she apparently had internal injuries. I’ve always believed that this wasn’t so much the writers screwing something medical up as it was done on purpose for symbolic reasons. I mean, think of what the emotional equivalent of “internal injuries” would be.

So, Beth saved Carol by bringing her medicine that healed her internal injuries. Now Carol will feel immense guilt about Connie. And especially if we’re right that Connie “disappears” (Carol does use the phrase “gone”) and is presumed dead, then we have a parallel to Beth. And how would we heal Carol from this particular guilt? Well, the most obvious way is to find Connie, so that Daryl’s friend isn’t dead yet again and he’s not alone. (Remember, Carol believes he has romantic feelings for Connie, even though he told her he didn’t.) And obviously, by extension, bringing Beth back to Daryl would go a long way toward assuaging Carol’s guilt.

But Beth’s return might also lead to some other form of healing for Carol. Such as killing Alpha, which might help her move on as well. And because of Connie bringing Dog back to Daryl in 10x01, I still strongly believe she’ll bring Beth back to him, which means by definition they’ll return together.

Meanwhile, we have that 10:40 (which I now thing points to episode 10x10 clock in 5x07). So if you follow this through in a literal way, Beth learned what medicine would heal Carol in that episode. Perhaps in 10x10, we’ll learn what Carol needs to be healed as well. As I’ve already suggested, it might be a matter of them finding out where Connie and Magna are in that episode.

Now let’s look at the Tom Sawyer template. I’ve done posts about this before, years ago, but if you go back and read them (X, X) they’re very tentative, and from 2016 no less. That’s because I really didn’t feel like I’d nailed down exactly what this is all about.

A recap: in 4x14, The Grove, Carol and the girls discuss that they’d been reading Tom Sawyer at the prison. They say that Carol is like the Widow Douglas. Then in Consumed (see why I’m including this here) we see her with a copy of Tom Sawyer in her bag. Now, that episode is very much about her dealing with Lizzie and Mika, so it makes sense, but it’s also a repeated symbol around Carol.

It hasn’t been mentioned—that we’ve noticed—since then, but @wdway remembered something about the story.

Full Disclosure: I’m much more familiar with Huck Finn than with Tom Sawyer, so I probably would never have made this connection. It’s all @wdway. But I’ll mention Huck Finn (as a character) here as well.

So @wdway remembered that in Tom Sawyer, Tom and his sort of girlfriend Beck get lost in a maze-like series of caves at one point. They’re actually presumed dead for a time. They do eventually find their way out and are *not* dead after all.

Given both the death fake out involved and that this symbol has been used around Carol multiple times, and she’s the one who caused Connie and Magna to become trapped…well, that’s quite a coincidence.

All those who believe in TWD coincidences, say I!

*crickets chirping*

Yeah, me neither. But there’s more.

Tom and Becky were in the cave for 3 days. Tom made marks as they tried to get out so they could find their way back. (Think the arrow Jerry found that the Whisperers made.) Tom and Becky are not only hungry but they're also thirsty (also true of our TWD characters). They find a small pool of water and so Tom leaves Becky to rest and goes on to explore a little more. Tom comes across Indian Joe hiding his treasure with a mark of the cross on the wall in order to find it later. Injun Joe is a very interesting character because he neither hears nor speak. (Connie, anyone?) Tom finally sees a bit of daylight down one of the tunnels goes back for Becky and then they claw their way out, meanwhile the townspeople had given them up for dead and so there was a lot of rejoicing when they realized they were alive.

Also, @frangipanilove did some research on Mark Twain:

“What I found when I did my research, and remember we don’t have the same relationship with the author over here as you guys do, but apparently Mark Twain was one of many pseudonyms used by that author, and apparently it comes from measuring the depths of the rivers, so as to know when it’s safe for the riverboats to go there. Mark Twain means mark numbers two:

"Mark Twain" (meaning "Mark number two") was a Mississippi River term: the second mark on the line that measured depth signified two fathoms, or twelve feet—safe depth for the steamboat. In 1857, at the age of twenty-one, he became a "cub" steamboat pilot. It was something I thought was interesting because of the 22 necklace, or the 2x2/2x10/10x2/10x10 symbolism we’ve talked about. But other than it being another “2” reference I couldn’t really find any huge smoking gun.”

So the fact that the writers used this as a template ties into her 22 theories, and is also connected with water and boats.

So we have Carol’s arc, her mentality, and even the Tom Sawyer symbol coming back around here. And in both cases, a death fake out, with Connie’s mirroring Beth’s.

See why this is interesting? In the story, Injun Joe actually ends up dying in the caves. So it will be interesting to see how this plays out. But having this symbol, which involves caves, in S4 and S5 kind of proves that they had this season (10) and Carol’s role in it planned back then. And I know I’m a broken record on this, but if they had THAT planned back then, it sort of proves a lot of things about Beth, does it?

I want to add one more thing that isn’t particularly TD in nature, but it speaks to the Tom Sawyer symbol and Carol and Daryl’s relationship.

When we first heard Carol called the Widow Douglass, it was either Lizzie or Mika that said it. And Carol responded, “Yeah, I’m just like the Widow Douglas.” It was a somewhat sarcastic remark, and understandably. The Widow Douglas really was a kind old granny lady. And we all know Carol has a flawed, badass, often downright homicidal streak that makes her very UN-like the Widow Douglas. But Lizzie’s point (or Mika’s; can’t remember) is that Carol adopted them, just like the Widow adopted Huck Finn.

And that IS one way to see Carol’s arc. She adopts children. She often loses them tragically, but she’s adopted new kids again and again.

But let’s look at Huck Finn from the story. Who is REALLY Huck Finn in TWD world?

Huck Finn (do NOT transpose the first letters of his names ;D) was a wild child. He liked to live on his own in the woods. He knew how to survive. He had a heart of gold, even befriending Jim, which was taboo back then because Jim was a slave and it was still a very racist society. But Huck didn’t care about that. Jim was his best friend and he was loyal to him. And while Huck was kind to the Widow Douglas and often accepted her hospitality, he didn’t want to live with her long term. He didn’t want to be civilized. He’d rather be a wild child and live in the woods.

So, who is Huck Finn really?

It’s Daryl.

So, it’s interesting to me that we saw the Tom Sawyer book in Consumed because they definitely did some establishing of Daryl and Carol’s mother/son relationship in that episode (“Used to be a boy; now you’re a man.”). Carol kind of adopted Daryl, especially after Sophia. So that’s part of the Tom Sawyer template as well. Again, not a very TD thing. Just something I was thinking about.

Or is it? @wdway pointed out some things that actually might make Daryl being Huck Finn a TD thing.

Like Daryl, HF’s father was abusive and used to beat him as a kid (so, a tie in to Daryl’s scars). In the book The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, HF and Jim spend a lot of time on a river raft. It’s a huge symbol and part of the story. And remember that in S9, when Carol and Henry went to find Daryl, he was living on a raft. (So, a water/boat reference.)

She also pointed out that if Daryl is Huck Finn, who is Tom Sawyer? Probably Rick. Tom Sawyer was the more civilized/less wild of the two, and they were BFFs. In the book, Tom got lost in the caves and was presumed dead. Now, obviously that isn’t true of Rick, but he is presumed dead right now. And it occurs to me that Connie might be a stand in for Rick. If her death fake out leads to Beth, well, we think Rick and Beth are in the same place. So it leads to Rick in a roundabout, 6-degrees-of-Rickyl sort of way.

So again, all of this just points to Beth’s imminent return. The circular arcs (wheel) coming back around again. And we think they’ll bring Beth with them.

12 notes · View notes

twdmusicboxmystery · 6 years ago

Text

Strawberry Theory: Master Post

Good morning! So I finally got around to reposting the Strawberry Theory. As you can see, I’ve done my best to make a master post out of it. I’m by no means sure that I have all the instances of strawberries, so if anyone thinks of any I’ve missed, please send them to me.

Warning: I might go down a bit of a rabbit hole here.

So these are the major instances of Strawberries that I’ll address here:

1) Around Beth at Grady.

2) That Daryl “claimed” in 4b.

3) Around Father Gabriel in 5b.

4) Around Sasha in 7b.

5) Rick and Carl’s convo in S8.

6) Around Carol in S7.

I want to talk about Grady first, even though it’s kinda out of order, because it’s the whole crux of the Strawberry theory. We see them around Beth all over the place at Grady. They’re in the cafeteria when she talks to Gorman, on the plate she brings to Edwards in his office, and what she uses to bribe Percy to help her get the KEY to the drug locker.

So let’s talk about the symbol of the strawberry and why it’s so appropriate for Beth.

In Christian symbolism, represents kindness and Christian goodness and purity in general. Not hard to see why this would be a Beth symbol. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

Strawberries were also thought to be a remedy for depression. They therefore represented healing, especially the healing brought by Christ.

Think about that. Not only was she in a hospital, and so maybe it showed she would heal from all her injuries, past and present, but we also have the Carol situation. Beth was literally holding strawberries in her hand when she went and got the medicine Carol needed from the locker.

There’s always been tons of talk and criticism about the fact that Carol went from having internal injuries that Edwards didn’t think she’d survive, to standing up and walking out of the hospital in mere days.

I’ve always thought that was probably meant to be more symbolic than realistic, and this surely proves it.

It’s also been said that the strawberry represents virtue. Specifically, that it stays virtuous and un-corrupted by the poisons around it. That’s definitely true of Beth, who never let the horrors of the world around her get her down or change her.

Because the tip of the strawberry points down, they sometimes represent Christ’s tears. The three-partitioned leaf represents the Trinity. The five petals on the flowers represent Christ’s five wounds (two hands, two feet and in the side).

I could go on, but check out THIS POST for more details.

The only other one I want to mention is that in other cultures, the strawberry can have a somewhat opposite meaning: that of sexual temptation. I’m less convinced that’s what tptb were going for, but given Gorman and what was going on at Grady, it would still make a certain amount of sense.

So no matter how you slice it, this is a very appropriate and even obvious symbol for Beth.

Next, Daryl claiming the strawberry patch. And here goes the rabbit hole.

I said the last time I posted the Strawberry theory, in the middle of S6, that the whole sequence where Daryl claims the strawberries is a foreshadow of how Daryl will find Beth again. I said it was significant that he’s on the road alone at the time (with the Claimers, but no other members of TF with him). Many of us believe that’s how he’ll find Beth.

Remember that @fragipanilove said in her post that, because Daryl is a Mary Magdalene figure to Beth’s Christ figure, he’ll probably be the first to see her (because Mary Magdalene was the first to see Christ, even before his apostles). So this actually works very well as a template. He’ll stumble upon her with another group and “claim” her from them. It’s especially interesting that the guy who first saw the strawberries throws Daryl a murderous look, as though he’d taken something the man thought should have been his.

Now, when I last posted about this, I thought it would be Negan’s people Daryl would find Beth with. During S6, we were all convinced she would show up with Negan. I think she still has to show up while Negan is in play, which he is for S9, but obviously it didn’t happen in quite the way we thought it would back then.

The thing is—and I’ve said this before—I do believe Joe’s Claimers were a foreshadow/parallel of the wolves. Lots of evidence for that. A “W” in the background when Daryl talks to Joe.

Beth and Daryl’s parallel arcs: the fact that Daryl ended up with the Claimers after Beth sort of left him behind (though not of her own volition). And we have a lot of evidence that Beth will end up with the wolves some time after TF left her behind. The fact that the Claimers were sort of the vehicle that reunited Daryl with TF (Rick, Daryl and Michonne) and we think the same will be true of Beth and the wolves. I could go on and on, but I won’t.

So my point is that I still stand by my original analysis of this scene as a template for Daryl stumbling onto Beth, but I’m thinking now that the group he’ll find her with is the wolves.

Also remember that per my Claimed Trading Card post, we can now, because of the trading card @boltthrutheheart found, link the Claimers and the Red Machete to Beth and Daryl. And of course Daryl “claimed” the strawberries, which are a symbol of Beth.

Now let’s talk Father Gabriel. Here’s where things get kind of complicated. You know what? Let’s talk about Sasha first. That will be easier.

We saw strawberries around Sasha in 7x16. And the interesting thing about this scene is that, along with the strawberries are apples (Apple Theory) and pancakes (Bisquick was mentioned at Grady, and self-rising products also represent resurrection). So three very potent Beth symbols.

The next thing we know for sure is that in Sasha’s death, she became one of the biggest proxies of Beth that we’d ever seen. She died but reanimated as a walker (resurrection) from a yellow coffin (Beth’s yellow polo) and about a thousand other parallels you can brush up on HERE and HERE.

So, connecting those two things, I think when we see strawberries around other characters (other than Beth and Daryl) it’s because the character is about to become a proxy either to Beth or to her arc, which is thematic throughout the entire series.

I’m pulling that analysis specifically from Sasha’s arc, so now let’s look at Father Gabriel. If strawberries around him in 5b are to show that he’ll become a Beth proxy, how is that accomplished on the show?

Well, there are a couple of ways it happened back in S5.

1) He started off being a very weak character that no one really liked. The end of S5, (5x16 to be exact) is when he first started to find his own strength and become worthy of living in TWD world.

2) The final scene between him and Sasha in that episode. You can read about it in detail HERE, but remember that they fought over the rifle and shot out the glass of the picture with the white trees.

It’s actually super-interesting to consider all this. We still don’t know exactly what role Sasha played in Beth’s disappearance/being left behind, but we know she played a role. The interesting thing is that these two (her and FG) fought in this scene, had a conversation that made no sense whatsoever, and strawberries were seen around both of them at one time or another.

3) This could also be seen as healing. Father Gabriel is very broken when they find him in S5, but 5x16 is the beginning of his healing, and he’s now because a very emotionally strong and steady character. Even Rick approves, which is saying something!

But now, after S8, there’s more, my friends. There is much more!

In S8, Father Gabriel was poisoned, right? He seems to have lost one of his eyes because of this. Also remember that in the sequence that led up to this, Dr. Carson died, and there were a ton of Beth parallels there too. (X)

The thing is, guys, having only one eye is tied heavily to the Sirius/Dog Star symbolism. @frangipanilove is the expert on this and could probably explain it better, but remember that the dog that came to the funeral home in Still only had one eye. We’ve always known that was important because the Sirius dog of the mythology is one-eyed. So that was always a way to show that Beth is the dog star, which will return.

Now Father Gabriel has only one eye (and it’s even the same eye as the dog!). So he’s a walking embodiment of the Siris/Dog Star symbolism. I don’t know if that means he had something to do with leaving Beth behind, as Sasha did, or that he’ll have something to do with her or her return. Because it’s taken so long for him to lose the eye, I lean toward it meaning something about her return. Especially as it happened in S8, and we really think we’ll see her in S9, it would make sense for the loss of his eye right before she appears.

Okay, let’s talk about some smaller instances of strawberries.

I’ll start by piggybacking off of what I just said. There was another instance of strawberries in S8, but it wasn’t one we saw. Rather, it was heard in dialogue. While arguing with Carl, who was trying to tell Rick that they needed to make nice with Negan and the Saviors, rather than killing them all, Rick said, “You think we’re gonna be out there picking strawberries with Negan?

Okay, another rabbit hole. What does this line mean? Well, if strawberries = Christian goodness in traditional symbolism, then this is just another way of saying that Rick doesn’t believe they’ll be able to make nice or find Christian love for Negan and his people after all they’ve done.

But why insert the strawberry symbolism? They could have uttered the same line/meaning without using the Beth symbol. And because AOW ended without her showing up, it doesn’t seem like something that should specifically apply to her, right?

So here’s what I’m thinking about this one. Strawberries can be about healing, right? And we’ve already established that they were specifically used this way at Grady because of both Beth and Carol. Well, the ultimate emotional “healing” that could take place between Negan and TF would be if they could forgive one another (I’m specifically thinking about the fact that Maggie, Daryl and Jesus are secretly working against Rick where Negan is concerned) and feel truly Christian toward one another again.

I think that WILL happen eventually. That’s why Negan is still alive. That’s why they threw in that random scene at the end of S8 where Maggie and Daryl are secretly trying to kill Negan. Their next arc will be one of coming to a place of forgiveness for Negan.

But the fact that they used the strawberry symbol to indicate this shows that Beth must be tied up in it somehow. And that kicked my butt down a rabbit hole because…think of the reasons we originally thought Beth would show up with Negan: because there are bats around her. And remember I said HERE that even though she didn’t show up with him or during AOW, as long as he’s still alive, there is hope of her showing up. If we’re right about what the bats mean, then she has to show up while Negan is still in play. As long as he’s still alive, there’s hope for her return.

But given this healing stuff, let’s re-examine the bats around her.

1) Beside her and Daryl in Inmates. Because it’s her and Daryl in this scene, the most obvious thing is that they’ll reunite at sometime during Negan’s tenure on the show. But this is also where we saw a disembodied shoe, and where Beth starts crying. So it’s about healing, and I’d also throw in that the lost foot/shoe symbolism will probably be fulfilled when she returns. Again, at some time when Negan is still on the show.

2) Glenn holding the bat and talking about her in the present (rather than past) tense in 5x09. This one is super-huge. Everyone thought Glenn holding the bat was a foreshadow of his death at Negan’s (or Lucille’s) hands. And it was. But he specifically talked about Beth during this sequence. Why? She wasn’t even present for his death.

Because she is the one who will help everyone (specifically Maggie and Glenn, but TF in general) come to forgive Negan (thereby healing them) for Glenn’s death. This may also explain why they specifically did a major death fake out for Glenn (in S6) rather than any other character. Beth is very tied up in Glenn’s final arc (or at least the aftermath of it) even if she wasn’t present for it.

Finally, the most minor example is that we saw strawberries in the bowl of fruit Ezekiel offers Carol in 7x02. (X) This is the only one I don’t think is specifically tied to Beth. I mean, it kind of is, but not in a way we need to over-analyze.

The bowl of fruit contains apples, nectarines, pomegranates, and strawberries. Nectarines are very close to peaches, so I think they filled the bowl with fruits we’ve seen often on the show before. And yes, many of them are tied to Beth.

But the episode specifically emphasizes that pomegranates are Carol’s symbol. It was even confirmed on TTD. Ezekiel said a pomegranate is sweet fruit surrounded by bitter, and that’s an analogy for Carol’s mindset at the time. She’d built up bitter walls around herself. There was still sweet fruit inside, but she was concealing it.

So what does this have to do with the strawberry theory? I think this was meant to specifically tell us that Carol’s symbol is the pomegranate and NOT the strawberry. It’s there, but it’s very specifically not tied to her. So the strawberries Daryl claimed are not meant to be about Carol. They’re, you know, about someone else. And who did we see strawberries around? Who held them, used them constantly, and was in many shots with them at Grady?

Exactly.

Okay, I think I’m gonna stop there. Again, if anyone can think of more instances of strawberries, let me know. Thoughts?

#beth greene #beth greene lives #beth is alive #beth is coming #td theory #td theories #team delusional #team defiance #beth is almost here #bethyl

14 notes · View notes