#the tragedy of toriel and asgore is already very complex and has a lot to explore

[hahanoiwont]

1. What are Frisk’s thoughts about storyshift sans and Papyrus? Would Frisk try to stay in the ruins with Papyrus? 2. Would Frisk get along with Cross sans? 3. Out of all the sanses, who would be Frisk’s favorite? 4. Do you think Red would find a way for Frisk to stop aging and live forever?

!!! hi :D these are some great questions! I am happy to answer :) under the cut so as not to interrupt anyone's dash

1. What are Frisk’s thoughts about storyshift sans and Papyrus? Would Frisk try to stay in the ruins with Papyrus? For background: Storyshift is the AU where a bunch of people shift over one way or another--Chara and Asriel live in Snowdin, Sans is king of the Underground while Papyrus lives in the Ruins, etc. etc. It and its counterpart Altertale (Papyrus and Asgore swap, Sans and Toriel swap, Gaster and Asriel swap, and everything else remains the same) are both really interesting concepts to me, and I strongly considered putting Altertale in Whither Then (with my own,, changes in some areas. much like how my Underswap is not exactly canon Underswap). As far as how WT!Frisk would feel meeting them...

I think Frisk would be sorely tempted to stay in the Ruins. They miss having a home with UF!Papyrus and Sans, and if there’s a Papyrus who wants them to stay with him and no Sans who might go crazy and try to kill them one day, it would be a dream come true, especially later in the series when they are less averse to staying in one place. But, something really important about UT Toriel that would be even more relevant to SS Papyrus is that they’re both lonely. Like, super lonely. Assuming Storyshift follows a mostly-canon timeline, Papyrus and Sans aren’t speaking, everyone in the Ruins is too intimidated to talk to Papyrus, and all of the fallen children leave and are killed by Sans. In the end, it would be much like Red’s insistence that meeting UF!Asgore is suicide--Frisk would understand his concerns, dismiss them, and leave. They wouldn’t be able to stay with Papyrus when they know they can alleviate his fear and reunite him with his friends and his brother by breaking the Barrier. And since Papyrus is generally more forgiving than Toriel, that reunion would have a much better chance of working out...at least until Sans appears to kill them.

As for Sans, I think Frisk would just feel sad for him. Their insistence has long been that he’s a good person who just gets pushed into a corner and can’t see a way to not kill people, and for storyshift Sans this is especially true. I think they would try to be very gentle with him.

2. Would Frisk get along with Cross Sans? We are reaching the end of my AU knowledge...I believe Cross was once a swap Sans who got reset all to hell by his Gaster? I know he’s a royal guard(?) and he was at some point possessed by Chara, which they would have in common. As far as their personalities, Cross Sans is loyal, friendly, and kinda noble, which I think Frisk would find a little strange in a Sans but ultimately appreciate. As people who both got kinda screwed over by the multiverse mess, I think they could be buds. Maybe in that AU where Frisk is buds with Nightmare & co?

3. Out of any Sans, who would be Frisk’s favorite? Depends...are we talking anyone in WT canon, or if Frisk were to meet every single AU Sans, which would they like best? In WT canon, Frisk’s favorite tends to be whoever they’ve spent the most time with, with the notable exception of Shy Sans. They loved Red a lot, and he probably maintains ‘favorite’ status even in Underswap (though at the end of Underswap, Blue is threatening to usurp him and probably would have if they’d stayed there longer); then their feelings towards Red complicate as they begin to process his betrayal and they get closer to Shy as he teaches them. They stay with Shy for a long time, relatively speaking; several months compared to their 2ish in Underswap, but less than they spent in Underfell (11 months, give or take). But it’s still safe to say Shy was their favorite and they would have stayed with him if they believed that they could.

Sfrisks is not in the running.

Then there’s Swapfell, where Frisk spends a long time. First 6 weeks are not particularly endearing for Black, since he’s first trying to kill them and then trying to stay out of the way so they can befriend Slim. I haven’t written it down anywhere, but they spend around 8 months with Black and Slim--they’re actually well on their way to 14 years old when they leave Swapfell, but they don’t know exactly how much time has passed, so it’s hard for them to tell. It’s not like they can consult a doctor. In any case, Black is the Sans they actually almost stay with, and he understands them on a “we come from terrible universes but would like to be harmless actually” level. I don’t know if that makes him their favorite, but they want him back very badly.

I’d say it’s mostly a matter of who Frisk thinks they have the greatest chance of actually being able to get to, ultimately--as well as what Frisk needs in the moment. When they want reassurance, they want Blue. When they want a friend or just somebody who knows what they’re doing, they want Shy. When they want to be understood, they want Black. When they want to feel safe from the world and secure and loved, they still paradoxically reach for Red. Does that make any of them Frisk's "favorite"...? I'm not sure.

4. Do you think Red would find a way for Frisk to stop aging and live forever? Don't underestimate crazy. I think the question is more, "What would it cost?" and "Would Frisk agree to it?"

:3 these were some fun questions and great opportunities to think things through...thank you for sending them! Whither Then thoughts are always welcome in my inbox :)

[starlightshore]

barring the no mercy route being an influence in this case, how would you describe chara's personality? I cannot describe them well at all despite them being my favorite character. they're too complex lol. all of the meta i can find at this time as them described at both extremes of innocent & evil but i don't think that's accurate

TW: discussions of canon dark topics such as abuse , death and suicide

i love talking about chara, i've talked about them at length before lmao. thank u for giving me a chance to talk about my beloved child.

you can actually read a character exploration i'm doing in a mini-arc for Askfallenroyalty. actually, if you want one condensed post, this comic sums up chara's motives

My interpretation:

chara is an abused kid and suicidal kid*(1) who ran to mount ebott to die.*(2) upon learning that monsters are made of love and humans aren't*(3), chara began to hate humanity. the deltarune prophecy*(4) makes them to be The Angel despite being a human. Feeling undeserving of this title and obligated to fulfill it, Chara wanted to be a good kid more than anything.

But then the buttercup pie incident happened. They've accidentally*(5) poisoned asgore and came up with a plan to ensure the prophecy could be fulfilled and take a hit against humanity. Two birds with one stone -who cares if it's also a personal win too? then obviously the plan goes up in flames and they and asriel are murdered. then asgore wants to kill of all humanity.

your influence*(6) gets Chara onto a path of redemption or a path of destruction, mirroring the deltarune prophecy's two main interpretations.*(7)

in summery: chara is a scared kid trying to fit into a world that demands violence by the past actions of the previous generations. The war massacred monsters and locked them up with a kill-solution -ensuring that further violence would be needed to be free, thus continuing the cycle of violence.

chara is just a kid. they knit, they make macaroni art, they loved their family and had a best friend forever.* (8) but they're also vengeful, they cared so deeply for monsterkind they were ready to die and had no idea they'd be awake as a soul, they were prepared for death. they're complicated, you can't have one side without the other. while i’ve never wanted to murder anyone, i can still relate deeply to chara and see myself in them a lot. the tragedy of them -the fact they never really got a “happy ending” like everyone else just haunts me and it’s why I spend so much time making AFR. I just... love this character so much, i want this kid to be happy. (not that it could ever be easy to get there, happy endings aren’t free.)

And frankly, seeing this hurt kid get demonized just rubs me the wrong way, and it feels completely against the morals Undertale tries to tell with it’s story. I see it as a cautionary tale against violence and dehumanizing others for the sake of hate and violence. how kids can be influenced by the violence -or kindness around them. you don’t need to forgive the ones who hurt you, but killing them is not always the solution -though sometimes necessary as framed in the Undyne the Undying fight.

People get both Undertale’s themes and chara wrong the most, and for the game that’s meant the world to me it bothers me more than it should lol. It’s a Good Story, and I don’t mean to frame my interpretation of the character or themes as 100% canon and I know Mr.Fox’s brain to confirm it kinda deal, but with all the time I’ve spent analyzing and thinking it over I do think it’s not off in the general direction of it lol. And besides the author’s intent isn’t really the end-all-to-be-all. It’s what you get out of the story and the themes that matter and stick with you. No one can take that away from you.

Sources and evidence:

"* If you're cuter, monsters won't hit you as hard." -faded ribbion flavor text * "The ends of the tools have been filed down to make them safer." -gardening tools in New Home (and iirc Toriel's home as well, too lazy to double check rn) * Where are the knives. -no mercy chara (this and paired with the previous imply there are no sharp objects in reach of chara's home because chara can't be trusted with sharp objects out of self harm. This doesn't necessarily mean abuse but paired with them hating humanity so deeply, being suicidal and a child it paints a picture of abuse.

"* I know why (chara) climbed the mountain.* It wasn't for a very happy reason." -asriel post pacifist epilogue dialogue

"* Love, hope, compassion... * This is what people say monster SOULs are made of. * But the absolute nature of "SOUL" is unknown. * After all, humans have proven their SOULs don't need these things to exist." -Library book on monster souls)

* Legend has it, an 'angel' who has seen the surface will descend from above and bring us freedom. - gerson

"* It takes at least a human soul... * And a monster soul. * ...* If you want to go home... * You'll have to take his soul. * You'll have to kill ASGORE." -Alphys. Because boss monster souls are the exception and can persist after death for a short period of time, Chara could of killed any of the family members to escape the underground. this implies escaping wasn't the goal -it was to die (considering they already attempted suicide to fall underground the first time, this is explicitly suicide.) the plaque doesn't mention or speak like monster/human fusion's consumed soul would be aware. chara had no way of knowing they'd be awake. also the whole thing with the pie is a prank. cups of butter. -> buttercups. putting flowers in a pie is a joke to do, we see Chara is similar to Toriel (they mimic her speech in the no mercy monologue, they say “greetings” as she does like how Asriel says “howdy” like Flowey does. Chara makes puns and jokes in the flavor text all the time.

https://imgur.com/a/zP18P -dog food bag at different LV. "When the protagonist first encounters Mad Dummy, they are given the option to beat it up. Choosing to beat it up prompts one of three responses depending on the protagonist's LOVE." (source: undertale wiki)

If the protagonist’s LV is 1, the response becomes "(You tap the dummy with your fist.) (You feel bad.)"

If the protagonist's LV is between 2 and 4, the response becomes "(You hit the dummy lightly.) (You don't feel like you learned anything.)"

If the protagonist’s LV is between 5 and 7, the response becomes "(You sock the dummy.) (Who cares?)"

If the protagonist’s LV is 8 or higher, the response becomes "(You punch the dummy at full force.) (Feels good.)"" This implies Chara (who is the narrator) will feel different about the dog food -which references the classic phrase of "glass half empty/full" showing your out look in life. Then hitting the dummy show's Frisk's out look on violence depending on LV. Note that by the end of it, it's no longer "you feel..." but "feels good" This is Chara.

      7. “* Lately, the people have been  taking a bleaker outlook...* Callin' that winged circle the  'Angel of Death.' “ -gerson “* Only the fearless may proceed. * Brave ones, foolish ones. * Both walk not the middle road. “ -the first plaque in the first puzzle room with Toriel. The idea is to walk on both the left and right sides -you can’t go half way in the middle. this mirrors the “true” endings are only accomplished if you stick to no mercy or pacifist only.

     8. literally their home in New Home is a treasure trove of pre-game chara characterization.

[tsukihimeyfan]

To Undertale

In honor of its 4 year anniversary, I would like to talk a bit about Undertale (I know I’m a bit late, but bear with me). Apologies ahead of time for the long post, and to anyone who reads it in its entirety; thank you. Also thank you very much to Toby Fox for giving birth to this masterpiece that has touched all of us so much :) I will be discussing several important details in the story, so SPOILER ALERT (just in case)

I came upon Undertale very late. It had already been out for about a year when I first heard about it, but everyone said such wonderful things and I was curious, so I decided to watch a playthrough on youtube, just to sate my curiosity. But Oh Man, I was not prepared for what I found: a gorgeous soundtrack, dozens of memorable characters, an amazing story, an incredible journey, and a veritable fountain of feelings sprouting in my heart. I fell in love.

For at least several weeks afterwards, the words “stay determined”, “everyone can be better if they just try” and “despite everything, it’s still you” bounced around in my head. Also, the idea that “even if its painful, even if you are going through a hard time, you can always choose to be kind, and happiness can always be found there, for others as well as yourself” became embedded in my soul. Even now, thinking about the True Pacifist ending fills me with joy. It was only fairly recently that I finally completed my own playthrough of the game, and I was pleasantly surprised to find that there were still many little secrets to uncover (for example, did you know that the  “gauntlet of deadly terror” bridge is just a rock formation that Papyrus painted over to make it more dramatic? He also added the rope for safety LOL😂)

The best part of the game, in my opinion, are the main characters. They are all more complex than they appear, they all have their struggles, and I would like to talk a bit about my opinions and theories about all of them.

Let us start from the beginning and talk about everyone’s favorite goatmom, Toriel. Of course, we all know her sadness at the death of her children, new and old, but if we really think about it there are signs that the situation may have been even worse than it seems... Namely, the shoe box in the room Toriel prepares for Frisk. If you check it, it says there are several shoes “in a disparity of sizes”. Presumably, these are the shoes left behind by the human children before they left the ruins, but they surely didn’t leave the ruins barefoot, right? And if they only stayed with Toriel for a day or so like Frisk does then she wouldn’t have had the opportunity or the need to go out and get some for them. This implies that each human child that fell probably stayed with Toriel for a while, long enough for her to need to buy them new shoes, maybe even because they outgrew their original pair. This, in turn, means that she had a chance to really get to know them, take care of them, and love them, unlike Frisk, who she only took care of for a little while before we leave. This might explain why she is so angry at Asgore, why it is unlikely that she will ever forgive him. If this is true, he not only killed random innocent human children that she didn’t really know, which is bad enough on its own, he might have killed her children, children she treasured. This also explains why she is so obsessive about protecting Frisk from everything and keeping them in the ruins no matter the cost. And yet, despite her pain, her “loneliness and her fear”, she still is one of the most gentle, kind and caring characters you meet, even willing to try to prevent Asgore’s death as well as Frisk’s. Toriel is best goatmom <3

Then we meet the star of the True Pacifist run (especially if you call him often); the Great Papyrus! He is my second favorite character for good reason. He is so much fun from the very beginning. Although he might appear to be a bit narcissistic at first, you quickly realize that in truth he is just lonely and desperate to impress in a misguided attempt to make more friends. Even so, he is always attentive to the feelings of his friends and tries his best to make them feel better. His relationship with Undyne is also quite adorable, and there are signs that he knows more than he lets on about everything (he is at the very least great at gauging the emotional state of people and manipulating them a little to push them towards self improvement, as Frisk’s date with Undyne and his warning about Alphys can demonstrate). Also, the way he always tries to believe the best of people, even in the worst circumstances or when he is scared, is truly admirable. I really love that precious cinnamon roll

Then there is Sans. Oh my god, Sans. He steals the show in the genocide route, truly. He is my favorite character of all, and there are so many things about him you don’t find out if you don’t dig deeper and talk to several people. First of all, he is a wonderful brother. Although he always teases Papyrus, he does his best to cheer him up all the time (for example, in the Genocide route he says that Junior Jumble is the hardest, even though in other routes he says its the crossword, just to make Papyrus feel a bit better when the human refuses to play along with his puzzles), he pays the bills for the house, he probably gave Papyrus his action figures (Papyrus tells you santa gave them to him, but there is a thank you letter to santa in Sans’ room), he made sure Papyrus’ room was super cool and comfortable when he doesn’t even have a bed frame himself, he was probably the one who bought Papyrus his car on the surface (one of the guys at Grillby’s tells you that he spends most of his time checking out car magazines), he helped  him build his sentry station and battle body, and he reads him bed time stories every night. Second of all, although he seems to be a comic relief character at first, he is struggling with major depression (you can find out that he is eating less, he doesn’t sleep much at all at night, he feels hopeless all the time, he seems fatigued all day, and he doesn’t see a point in doing anything at all) and is probably using humor to cope. Finally, there is Sans’ heroism as well as his tragedy: he is one of the only characters who is aware of the resets. First he had to live through Flowey’s endless resets, when he first befriended everyone and then proceeded to kill them all in a variety of ways, presumably being the one to stop him from getting the human souls several times (Flowey tells you that Sans has caused him “more than his fair share of resets”). Then there is YOU, who manage to free the monsters, begrudgingly earn his trust/friendship, and then rip it all away (even worse, he is completely aware of your betrayal; if you reset after a True Pacifist ending, you can find a picture of Frisk smiling happily with all of your friends together, and the only time such a picture is taken is when you all make it to the surface, so he certainly knows that you freed everyone and then returned them to the darkness for your curiosity). And yet despite all of that, despite knowing that fighting you is pointless (especially since he can tell every time he kills you and you load your save file), despite not having hope anymore that he will one day see the sun and remain under its light, he still fights you fiercely on the genocide route, again and again, employing all of his considerable power, but not for himself (he doesn’t hope for anything anymore after all); its because he still wants his brother and his friends to have a better future, because he knows that if you win the world will end and no one will ever return, because he still wants you to reset so that everyone will come back and have another chance at happiness, no matter how brief. Jesus christ, this character gives me all of the feels. I love him so much

As for Undyne, I love how she seems so rough but is actually very sweet to her friends and loved ones, and she cares so much for her fellow monsters, always trying her best for their sake. Also, her crush on Alphys is the cutest thing ever, particularly if you take the time to call her often (you’d be surprised how often she talks about Alphys. Papyrus also tries to encourage her several times to be honest with her feelings, and their dynamic is frankly the best mentor-student relationship I’ve ever seen)

In the case of Flowey, I really like how he is a sort of reflection of the player ingame, especially for those who chose to go through the genocide route (“‘I don’t like this’, I told myself, ‘I’m just doing this because I have to see what happens’ Hahaha, what an excuse!”). And the Asriel twist was truly masterfully executed.

I really empathize with Alphys in a lot of ways, since I struggle with social anxiety myself. Her journey to overcome her self hatred and be honest about her mistakes is really touching. I love how her friends understand that she only had the best of intentions at heart and continue to stand by her when she comes clean about what she did. Friendship can really make all the difference in the world for those of us who are struggling like her in one way or another. Her apparent suicide if you kill Mettaton or Undyne, her pillars of support, is one of the saddest things in the game I think. I also really admire how during genocide she presumably opens up the true lab for the evacuating monsters despite her fears, and if you abandon the genocide route in Hotland she takes charge in order to protect all monsters in Undyne’s stead

When we first meet him, my opinion of Mettaton is the same as Undyne’s; “I don’t really like that guy, but I admire his lifestyle”. However, I really enjoyed his growth as a character after Frisk beats him and his fans remind him of what is truly important. He becomes so much more supportive of his friends, and I really like how he always stays true to who he is, even going so far as to find the body/look that perfectly represented how he felt inside, and later encouraged others to do the same (like giving that one lion his dress)

Finally, we come to one of the most interesting characters, even though they are rarely mentioned and not really seen except in the ending of the genocide route: Chara. Truthfully, I think they are often misunderstood because the biggest impression they make is in said ending, when they take control of Frisk and destroy the world. However, I do not believe Chara was inherently evil. After all there are clear indications that Chara is the narrator of the game (the most obvious being the mirrors in Genocide). They tell you that your determination awakened them from death, and I believe that their spirit becomes attached to yours at the beginning of your adventure, which would explain how you, a human new to the underground, can understand the monsters that can’t speak normally like the Froggits and the snails (notice that their text starts with a noise they make, like “ribbit”, and what they actually mean is in parenthesis) as well as the ancient writing on the walls. After all, Chara lived in the underground long enough to become a sibling to Asriel and become known by all the monsters, it would make sense for them to have learned their language, and then they translate for you. This would also mean that all the funny commentary whenever you check an object or a monster comes from Chara. Also Chara being the narrator would explain why they go silent at one point or another during the battles with Asgore and Toriel (when the description says only “...”). Many people argue that their plan to cross the barrier with Asriel and kill humans means they were evil, but I do not think so, even if they did hate humanity. After all, if they only wanted the power to kill humans they could have killed one of the Dreemurs in their sleep, taken their soul and crossed the barrier with it. Instead, they killed themselves, gave Asriel their soul in order to break the barrier and made a plan to free all of their monster friends and family. Death from buttercup poisoning is not an easy one either (it includes bloody diarrhea, abdominal pain and blistering of the intestines); they had to suffer in terrible agony for days in order to achieve their goal, all for their monster family. People also argue that the fact that they laughed after accidentally poisoning Asgore means they did it on purpose or enjoyed causing him pain, but Undertale shows us many times that sometimes you laugh when the only thing you want to do is cry. There is also this during the fight with the Snowy amalgamate which proves my point: (look below) . Finally, during the battle with Asriel in True Pacifist, you use your memories with your friends in order to save them, but you don’t know Asriel at all, so how do you save him? The answer is simple: Chara shares their memories of him with you, and since they are the narrator, they are also the one who encourages you to use the last of your power to save your friends. In conclusion, I think in the beginning Chara is just a slightly bitter, slightly misguided, sometimes unnecessarily violent child who tried to do their best to protect those they loved, even though in hindsight it might not have been with a good method. In many ways, they remind me of Undyne (specially after MK says that maybe she is mean, not cool, in the True Pacifist ending. That really breaks my heart, when I think about all she has done for monsters in general and MK in particular in other routes. It would also explain why Chara seems to admire her so much, calling her a heroine in every route and seeming horrified by the state of her body when she is killed in neutral routes). This means that what they become in the Genocide route is because of you, and they even tell you so at the end (you are the one who makes them think the only meaning of their reincarnation is acquiring power). It makes sense that seeing everyone they know and love being killed systematically right in front of them would twist them, turn them into something they were never meant to be in order to cope with what is happening. Also, Sans does say that gaining LV causes you to feel less and hurt others more easily. Your actions take that well-intentioned but misguided child and turn them into a demon.

I am so in love with these characters that I cannot do a Genocide route myself. I only know about it from watching playthroughs but I don’t have the heart to destroy their happiness. I only ever did a single run, without resetting once, all the way up to True Pacifist. I like to think that in some universe where they are real, they are living happily on the surface, Sans has had the chance to restore his lost hopes, and resets are no more.

I would also like to thank the Undertale fandom for giving me a home, and so many wonderful ideas to explore. Since Deltarune practically confirms that the Multiverse exists in canon, the possibilities are endless, and the amount of detail and dedication you guys have devoted to building those other realities is truly outstanding. I specially love Underfell, Aftertale (and its close relative Errortale), Underswap, Handplates, Endertale, and Underverse/Xtale. To their creators, thank you for the ideas, the art, and the possibilities. And most of all, thank you Toby Fox for starting us all on this wonderful journey.

And to all my fellow fans: Remember, Always Stay Determined ♥️