#the real reason papyrus isn't in deltarune

[alias-inkpatch]

its late but i've been reminded today about how tall Papyrus actually is and i wanted to compare his height to some others.

enjoy, it's an experience

(i added sprites from both games if they were available.)

[sunsestart]

Small...

[octo-in-the-mainframe]

Deltarune Stuff I Think Might Happen Before the Next Chapters Come Out (so I can say I was right)

Papyrus is the Knight. (I have a whole essay on this I just haven't edited it yet).

Gaster won't be evil, but he will be an antagonist at some point.

Gaster will probably make an appearance in Chapter 6, maybe in the Bunker.

Noelle is the angel.

Every Undertale main character will go to a Dark World, except maybe Alphys and probably Mettaton (Unless the whole town turns into a Dark World).

My reasoning is that Toriel, Asgore and Asirel are so obviously important, Toriel is already in a Dark World, Undyne is most likely coming along for the ride, and Sans and Papyrus are connected to Gaster and also Noelle and Dess through Snowdin and the weird bonus content for the Xbox version of Undertale.

Sans will die in the Weird Route, giving us an actual "No Mercy" Papyrus battle.

(I know this sounds edgy but like...Sans is the ONLY main character who doesn't die unless it's a No Mercy Route, mad sus).

Nightmare Knight will be used in some way for the Knight's theme.

Megalo Strike Back will make an appearance, possibly in whatever potential Gaster battle track we get.

Dess has more to do with the secret bosses than we think.

Dess is trapped in a NEO Dark World and/or the Depths.

The Secret Boss Soul Modes are based off the colors behind Sweet Capn' Cakes in the room where you can make them play their Jingle Bells remix.

Asriel is to Dess as Kris is to Noelle.

Gaster is 666, Chara is 999, Papyrus is 333. (I don't remember what the 3's stand for but there was a reason, or if this even matters in context to Deltarune).

Spade King will have an arc dependent on if you manage to recruit everyone, though I don't know if it will mean redemption. I've seen people get really mad at this idea and honestly? As long as it's a sensitive portrayal and has him apologize to Lancer and do better going forwards I'll be fine with it. I only really think this might be true because of how he is in Chapter 2, and that it would be weird to have the only guy actually criticizing you for your actions to be just straight up an evil guy you can ignore. Also, abusers are people too, and fandom spaces have a really hard time accepting that forgiving and growing is just as realistic as cutting the abusive person off. (shout out to @nukedimplosion for putting this into way better words than I could).

And now, for how I think the message of the game will present itself...

The game likes to tell you your choices don't matter right off the bat. I have a hard time believing the "No one can choose who they are in this world" person to be the same guy who was so nice about our "WONDERFUL CREATION," so I'm going to assume there are two different people talking to us.

I think this other person could be Dess.

Gaster, who has survived despite being shattered across space and time, Gaster, who has managed to connect with us, the real world, is ultimately someone who wants to change fate. Pushing and pushing until he gets the result he wants. I think Gaster believes that our choices mean everything. Why else would he gives us a character creator of all things?

But the other voice...

They do not believe in choices. They've been stuck in this pit of nothing, forced to keep going knowing everyone they love is living on without them. They most likely know about the secrets of this world now, having spent so long in its depths. Dess takes away the character creator, forcing you into Kris's body because she didn't get to choose. But some part of her, deep, deep down, wants to believe she still has a choice. So, she put us in someone who has even a slight chance to Find Her.

Someone who remembers the day she disappeared.

Someone who remembers the Bunker. Noelle isn't any help, no matter how much she misses her. Noelle blocks everything out. Asriel is out of town.

It has to be Kris.

It has to be.

And on the other hand, Gaster is optimistic, but some part of him realizes that this could all be for nought too. I think it would be really cool if we have an optimist desperate for freedom, and a pessimist who won't let herself believe in a way out.

(To clarify, I realize this has little to no evidence to back it up, it's just using what we DO have and filling in the blanks with the vibes I get from the characters. Like, I do genuinely believe Gaster likes us and the world of Deltarune. I don't think he's evil or anything. With the tiny bit of info we have on Dess, she seemed like a protective but fun older sister. I think she would feel ashamed for not being able to take care of Noelle while she's stuck, and after having been a very assertive person in her life, feeling hopeless when faced with the seemingly impossible to escape depths for years. Of course, I could be wrong, and she actually has some sick plans for the future or something, and Gaster could be more malicious than he seems. But who knows?)

Oh, and before I get someone asking why Papyrus would overthrow the three kings, every Knight candidate needs a reason to do this, and none of them make sense until we get more context. Another thing: all of the Knight candidates that seem possible either haven't been seen yet or are side content. (Or are Kris. And. I have so many reasons why I don't think they're the Knight. At least, not THE Knight). It's very likely that any of them could be built up in the next couple chapters.

Heck, I think we might see them in Chapter 3, curious as to why a new Dark Fountain has been opened. It would be a neat way to introduce them to the group, being in someone else's Dark World, where they're not fully in control. We would also get to see how they'd act towards the Darkeners of Kris's Dark World. We would be able to get some of their personality, without them being the main focus. At the very least, I think we'll get more hints so they will actually be a satisfying reveal with what we're given. Though, this might result in too many characters...hmm...

Anyway, I think that's it.

I might come back to this if I have more, and depending on how the 14th goes, we might have some new stuff to theorize over.

[kattowo]

Papyrus is Important

I've been thinking a lot about Papyrus and like, it's somehow only JUST occured to me how important he is to the story of not just Undertale, but also Deltarune. AND how mysterious he is as a character. Here's why;

Out of all of the main characters of Undertale (besides Flowey and Asriel, for obvious reasons), Papyrus is the only one that has not only not made an appearance, but his name hasn't been spoken once. Like, evidence he is indeed Sans' brother in Deltarune exists in the files, but other than that, there's been basically nothing other than his brother mentioning him.

We know basically nothing about Papyrus' backstory. Sure we can infer because of his obvious connection to Sans, and sure Undyne (for example) doesn't have much either, but other than his connections to other characters (like how he became a sentry), we know almost nothing. For reference on how nuts that is, we know more about the backstory of Gaster, a character who was literally erased from existence, than we do about Papyrus; the character with the most lines of dialogue in Undertale.

The steam page mentioning that unlike the other main characters of UT, Papyrus is "busy" in DR. Since Sans explicitely states he wants Kris to meet him, it really doesn't make sense to me for Toby to just cut out Papyrus from not just the story, but from any real appearance rather than mentions. And while yes this line is a joke, the fact it's included at all seems to allude that he's a very significant character for him to appear later in the game, rather than the first chapter when the others were (re)introduced.

Papyrus' ties to Sans. There's a very popular theory that, through an unknown/yet possibly unseen event, Sans transported from Deltarune to Undertale. If this already likely theory is true, then where does Papyrus land in it? Did he travel to UT with Sans, or was he already there when Sans arrived? This isn't a theory post, but I'm including it because of how significant Papyrus' story and role in Deltarune could be to either proving it right or wrong.

For these reasons, I think Papyrus is going to have a very significant part to play in Deltarune and, subsequently because of the last point, his role in being one of the missing links between Undertale and Deltarune.

That begs the question, what will his role be? Well, for now we don't know, but here's the theory I believe is most likely or, at least, makes the most sense above any other; that Papyrus is the knight. I'll link you to @insanelyadd 's post about it :)

sidenote;

for those wondering why i didn't talk about Mettaton in the first point; it's because i think he is ALSO important to the story!! maybe not to the degree that Papyrus is, but for similar reasons as him that i might come back to in a later post!

~Kat

[petitprincess1]

Are you into Deltarune/Undertale? Also, do you have any theories on it?

Yes, I very much am! I know a lot of people have a disdain for the fandom for their own reasons, but I personally have not had any problems. Then again, I don't really interact with the fandom, so I might be hugely biased.

As for theories, I've thought about this and I'm not sure if anyone else has:

What if Sans doesn't like Papyrus in Deltarune?

Hold on! Hold on! Let me tell you something before you guys go insane! Okay, so, we know that in Deltarune that some of the original characters have been flipped upside-down and turned backward. Like with Alphys and Undyne not knowing each other, Mettaton having horrible self-esteem and being locked away, Catty and Bratty hate each other, and Burgerpants/Pizzapants....is happy.

If this is a different Sans than our Snas in Undertale, then it wouldn't be shocking to think that he might be embarrassed by Papy. Think about it, Sans was constantly so supportive and uplifting toward his bro. No matter how ridiculous and dorky Papyrus would be, Sans made sure to tell him how cool and great he is. Papyrus was always loving and outgoing, while Sans mirrored him.

So, wouldn't the opposite be true? Yeah, Sans is still our smart-ass, but Papy isn't outgoing or even remotely excited to meet a human? Heck, we aren't even allowed to see him, even tho, in Undertale, Sans wanted Papy to be the one to catch Frisk and be all excited that a real human is around. Now, Sans is just all "Yeah, he just doesn't want to see anyone. ...Anyway-" like, I refuse to believe that the Sans in Undertale would just not care or be so flippant about it.

Not only that, but he really did just fucking tease us for getting excited to see Papy. Hell, he even allowed Chara to be around him, as long as they acted like a person. If you don't even talk to Sans in Ch 1 of Deltarune, he jokes about not even having a brother. Plus, him calling you an "idiot baby" completely unprovoked x3

Idk, maybe I'm overanalyzing and Sans is being the overpowered, funny jerk that he is. I just have a weird feeling. ...Would make an interesting au tho.

[enbyhyena]

It would stall you longer if he switched things up yeah, but there's probably a few reasons he doesn't. One being the aforementioned thing about players being obsessed with outcomes (I doubt he knows about RNG, which would lead a lot of players to write the mechanic off I think; honestly I think the fact he DOESN'T change anything draws more attention since most other monsters also have RNG. In fact, isn't Papyrus' fight also almost entirely scripted?), another being that Undyne tries that (during the Undying phase of her fight) and it clearly doesn't stop the player if they've made it to that point. And if what you think is true, about him going off of expressions/body language rather than memory between resets/loads, then that would imply maybe he *doesn't* know he's doing the same exact things. Maybe he even thinks he's switching it up, but doesn't get the deja vu there and ends up falling into the same patterns on accident. Statistically that's improbable, but not impossible.

More probably, I just doubt he can put in the effort. I think like I said that he's just been through so many genocidal runs with Flowey already, that he knows how this will go. Maybe his tactics worked against Flowey in the past even. After all, there wouldn't be an Underground for Frisk to fall into if not. But more than anything I think having been through the ringer already would have dampened his effort and emotional energy for the whole situation. It takes real apathy for someone to act so late when they have so much on the line. Sans clearly loves his brother, but doesn't act. Because he's probably lost him dozens of times before already, and he knows it can be undone. Death doesn't have much meaning for him anymore.

Side-note, but I also personally think that when Sans refers to our "expression" after a load, I think he's addressing the player, not Frisk. Either because he's able to gauge how we must be feeling from behind the screen, or because our expression is in-verse mirrored on Frisk's face. Since I imagine Frisk, as a vessel (demonstrated by Kris in Deltarune), is mostly if not entirely incapable of emoting on their own. So maybe Sans doesn't explicitly remember the outcomes of resets and loads, but it could still imply a minor form of omnipotence.

Also thanks for correcting me on the KR; I haven't played the game since like 2016-2017, so it's been a hot minute. :p

I also want to make a note just in case it isn't overtly obvious, that I debate with you for fun and in good spirit! It gets me thinking, and I enjoy examining the possibilities, even if none of them may actually be right at the end of the day. So thanks for still replying!

If Sans was really able to remember resets, don't you think he'd change up his attack patterns?

Make himself less predictable?

Or at least SOMETHING, y'know?

[waterfallmelody]

the real reason why papyrus isn't in deltarune yet is because toby can't face the thought of making him wear anything other than his battle body

[chalkeater]

One theory about that time I hear was that, like Undertale, Deltarune was set some time in the future. One argument for this is that nobody seems to comment on the high level of technology in the dark world. Noelle even mentions that Dess said she would take Noelle to a big city like cyber world. If it is like Undertale then the reason why nobody in hometown seems to have hugely futuristic technology is simply because it's an isolated town and, like Papyrus' room in Snowdin, has old computers and out of date technology. Additionally, a lot of the high level of technology seen in Hotland is known to be some of the best technology around, which is why there are lasers and talking robot. A similar level of technology is seen in Cyber City so maybe cities in Deltarune do have a similarly advanced level of technology, hence the complete lack of surprise from anyone to the city.

THAT'S SO TRUE THAT'S SO TRUE. But I don't think it's set in the future I think it IS meant to be set in maybe the same time as THIS world / real life. this is actually the theory I'm guessing is what's most likely going on. it's 2022 but there's a town where everything isn't as updated

When it comes to futuristic stuff in UT and DR we have to take into consideration that Undertale has magic involved and the Dark World HAS magic involved as well. It's already confirmed that the dark world is curated and tailor made according to the people it's for/made from and the environment it's set in. See: Closet = Dark and cozy and can house anyone Castle Town. Computer Lab = Sci-fi Futuristic and FAST Cyber World. Noelle and Berdly think that it's a dream- Susie (myself?? crazy to say my name in third person) already ran around Castle Town and the Boardgame World so she/I would already have an idea of how crazy it can get. + Too busy trying to rescue a girl COUGH COUGH. If I had time I would go back and start analyzing the dialogue text

Back to Hometown being isolated = slower evolution of technology. think about it. In a way monsters and humans probably still have some.. prejudices going on? Why else would monsters have their own community where even they feel in awe in being around a human. That is for sure isolated.

I mentioned it in the previous ask something like "it does take place in 202X but something is going on where Hometown isn't as up to date with technology" is one of the alternatives I was thinking of. Maybe Hometown even has its own internet service provider and all these sites truly are monster-originated.

Man this really brings us back to chapter 1 where people were figuring out that things aren't necessarily the best in-universe. Because talking about all this isolation implies a lot for what things mean in-universe.

[fusulyesheep]

I know im posting too much about deltarune this last days but ima do it again

If last week i was losing my mind, in this week i dont have a mind anymore

Im still questioning WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED

[under the cut if you want to see someone slowly losing it]

First, ralsei randomly changing form. i know we saw this last chapter but now its more uncanny. How did he get taller (also the fact he can just appear in other dark worlds and not turn into stone but this isn't that important)

Rouxls Kaards and Seam being extra suspicious, because Rouxls head doesn't turn into stone and he was stopped from using his real power whatever this is, and seam apparently knowing what are the shadow crystals and being able to take one from your different save and talking about a boss harder than Spamton and Jevil

Spamton basically confirming the influence of gaster in this universe, apparently knowing about jevil who probably also got crazy because of the man who talks with hands, and also his crazy talk about freedom and the chilling way he just breaks when you win against spamton NEO

Noelle having issues with the word "december" alluding to the fact Dess has disappeared and that's why asgore was sent out of the police force and toriel end up divorcing, and noelles mum's acts weirdly AND NOELLES DAD IS JUST WITH A UNKNOWN DISEASE THAT IM SURE WILL TIW INTO THE PLOT (and also what is this between rudy and asgore RUDY YOU ARE NOT DIVORCED YET)

You can manipulate noelle into killing literally everyone just because yes, so you traumatize her and now berdly is dead

And also she may be or at least have connections to the angel

Kris just RIPPING THE SOUL OUT OF THEIR BODY IN THE BATHROOM WHILE SUSIE AND TORIEL ARE JUST BAKING A PIE

GETTING OUT OF THE HOUSE BY THE WINDOW (SO THEY ESSENTIALLY JUST CRASHED INTO THE GROUND AND PROBABLY FELT PAIN, BUT NOT LIKE IS A BIG DEAL COMPARE TO THE FACT THAT THEY TAKE THE THING THAT KEEPS THEM ALIVE OUT OF THEMSELVES)

SLASHING THE THINGS ON THE CAR MAYBE BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT ANYBODY RUNNING AWAY

OPENING THE DOOR SO UNDYNE WILL NOTICE THEM

AND JUST CASUALLY OPENING A FOUNTAIN AFTER PUTTING THE SOUL IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SOFA

And just

who are the titans?

aren't we gonna talk about the fact that there are literal GODS most likely going to appear at the same time asriel comes home?

AND YOU KNOW WHAT'S THE WORST OF ALL OF THAT??

THIS IS NOT EVEN EVERYTHING IS MAKING ME FREAKING OUT

TO THE BIG THINGS THAT CAN DESTROY THE WORLD TO THE LITTLE THINGS LIKE SUSIE NOW BEING IN TOUCH WITH PEOPLE (AND NOELLE) TO THE FUNNY THINGS LIKE THE BANANA TO THE EMBARRASSING THINGS LIKE BERDLY PREVIOUSLY LIKING NOELLE AMD NOW LIKING SUSAN TO THE THINGS I CANT EXPLAIN LIKE ONION-SAN BEING ALL "IVE HEARD A SONG OR SOMETHING" TO THE CUTE THINGS LIKE ALMOST CANON SUSELLE TO THE JUST BLATANTLY WEIRD ONES LIKE PAPYRUS JUST BEING NON-EXISTING FOR SOME GODAMM REASON

I LITERALLY CANT POSSIBLY SAY EVERYTHING, THE ONLY WAY TO SHOW WHAT'S MAKING ME LOSING GRIP OF MY SANITY (PROBABLY ALREADY LOST) IS JUST POINTING AT THE FUCKING GAME

BECAUSE HONESTLY IT'S IT IN ALL IT'S ENTIRETY

Ha ha i needed to get this all out of my throat,

sincerely, a random deltarune fan who is now insane

[noveratus]

After finishing Deltarune chapter 2, here are my thoughts [Spoilers]:

-At this point we all agree Kris is a reincarnation of Chara, right? I mean, their distaste for humanity, their love of Asriel, the way they treat their souls... it's too similar to what we know of Chara/ what we saw of them from the no mercy run

-Chara is also the knight. My theory is that Chara created this world at the end of the no mercy run, making them the Roaring Knight

-I'm not sure why they are creating the fountains, but maybe it's to try and get rid of the presence of the player. It's very interesting how we started controlling them at the same time as the fountains went off and what Ralsei refers as "chaos" could be lack of control or order

More light hearted stuff:

-Asgore, please, Toriel isn't interested anymore. Maybe you should try going for someone that might like you more... someone with antlers perhaps? 👀

-Thinking that the game will let you choose whether you want Susie to be with Noelle or Ralsei

-Also Kris about to be a wingman to Undyne and Alphys is ❤

-My ships for this game so far: RudyXAsgore, SansXToriel, SusieXNoelle, UndyneXAlphys

-QueenXme /j but I would let her step on me. I will even play some mobilez games with her. I love her.

-Ralsei is an interesting character, isn't he? He is the only darkener able to walk between worlds with no side effects hmmm

-Love the new town mechanic, it's nice to have a reason to be a pacifist other than the ending

-I love the designs in both undertale and deltarune, so creative and fun! The bird butlers have to be my favorites from chapter two

-That whole exchange between Toriel, Asgore and Sans felt very awkward exactly how you'd expect the exchange between your divorced mom, your divorced dad and your mom's bf to be like. Felt bad for Sans and Kris. More of that please-

-Papyrus, please, I miss and love you (platonically)

-I also adore the sense of humor in this game and the whole battle system. I wonder if at some point we will get a chance to choose our party (the fact monsters can act now makes the game much better too)

-If darkenings are objects in the real world, does that mean we can brute force Jevil into the town 👀 /J

-I'm so tired, shouldn't have spedrun it

-Please, Toby, I'm on my knees, let me have a glimpse of Asriel, he's my boyyyy