#the multiple times alcibiades is just abseloutely brain fried

[whatifwekilledgodandwebothgirls]

!!Platos alcibiades 1 final reviews!! Enjoy my incoherent rambling

It was fine i GEUSS . not particularly life altering, like the symposium was , the symposium fucked me up , but it was nice . I tend to judge things based on either how many completely new concepts i hadnt considered before the intoduced me with or based on if it inspired me to think of something new . Alcibiades 1 did not offer a whole lot of new information , the stuff about souls cute and all , but the stuff about politics seemed very very( well not basic but ) base level knowlage. It was a nice introduction to the political opinions of philosophers , thats for sure , and it was a lovely introduction to socratic dialoge , like actuall dialoge and not the speeches, since the only plato ive read to completion has been the symposium which did not follow that formating and the rest ive studied do not include the lines of dialoge but exclusively the blocks of text . Reading this book very much reminded me of greek theater , where they woukd have this long monologes and then the little stihourgia( basically when the characters talk to eachother one sentence each ) thrown in there

The translation i got also was not the best , it did not include much analysis of the text , though to be fair its a fairly easy text and didnt need much explaining. One other thing that i particularly enjoyed very much because i notice it in my own translations, but know is stereotypically frowned upon is that the translator took some very spesific words whose meaning is obvious to anyone who speaks modern greek but have wierd endings or that dont conform with modern greeks grammativ rules , words that normally would take an entire sentence of modern greek to be translated , and just refused to translate them , instead keeping them intact in the modern greek text .i dont know if it makes sence but he would take the words καλλιστος γενόμενος which tranlates to " at the moment when you will become the best version of yourself " and just refused to do that tranlation because it is long .

Alright now on to the important stuff

(Trans : alc :you are doing good, socrates, not leaving

Soc: Show great vigor at being as pretty as you can be

Al : I will )

These are the words exchanged after the very infamous" i am the only lover youve ever taken that loves your soul and not your body" converation , but im talking about them first because i want to focus on the linguistic part of it all not the actual context .

The translation given doesnt do the text justice . First i cant to speak about how he says ευ ποιεις which litterally translates to "you are doing good " but it hold much more meaning that than . He is praising socrates actions , dubbing them morally good , with the use of ευ . He is admiting that socrates being his lover is a good thing

Now the second part could be interpreted as alcibiades saying that socrates is doing good by not leaving , but it coukd also be interpreted as " youre doing good . And dont leave " . Either way , to express that dont leave part acibiades uses opatic (in greek its called ευκτικη , eutici im taking googles word on the greek to english translation) which we can tell by the οι at the end of απελθοις . That particular type of the verb gives away the fact that this is alcibiades wishing , not ordering , since its mostly used for wishes or geusses for the future . He does not use imerative . He could have used imperative , the sound and the flow of the sentence would have been the same switched the meaning from " i wish you will stay " to " stay " with a ordering meaning . He could have done that , but he chose to wish that socrates doesnt leave , not order him not to leave , which drive me insane , this man , who had the world in his arms , still shyly refused to order socrates to remain .

The translation is also a bit lackluster with the whole προθυμου part . The actuall translation should be " you shoukd be willing for this , to be the prettiest " now what socrates ment by that beats me , it could have been ironical , it could have been something else entirely that escapes me honestly , im just gonna say that the word προθυμου is really awsome and it shows willingless and as much as vigor and hard work . It is what we used to say in the scouts , that we should always be πρόθυμοι always ready and always willing to give our 100%

( trans : if , then , someone becomes a lover of the body of alcibiades, he wouldnt be loving alcibiades, but one of his possesions. Al : that is true

Soc: whoever is a lover of your soul?

Al: according to the converstation, it must be true

Sic: he who loves your body , when its youth passes , gets up and leaves ?

Al: obviously

Soc: whoever though , loves your soul doesn't leave when it is heading towards improvement, ist it so ?

Alc: very good

Soc: i am then tge ine who doesnt leave but stays shen youve passed your lifes prime while the others have left )

Now to me , this is the very core of the text , and the very key to undertanding a great part of not only socratic dialoges in general , but alcibiades personality and athens politics

It is very important that socrates says he isnt going to leave alcibiades. Its important that he says it , that he makes it clear , we as readers undertand very very clearly that alcibiades is a man deeply loved by socrates , which is insane , since by the time the text was written alcibiades was a nutorius criminal and traitor. Alcibiades was at the time the text was written , a very very hated person , and a very problematic one , yet here we have , the father of philosophy, the poster boy for goodness , a person who is used often by plato to be an example of reason and of morality, saying he loves a man who will later become increadebly moraly corrupted

This testimony of socrates love is the ultimate example of matirial objects versus the world of ideas ( btw once youve had the plato cave alegory explained to you its very easy to understand plato , it almost always is relevant to a point its starting to annoy me ) . He loves alcibiades, the real alcibiades, the alcibiades that exists in the world of ideas , and he rejects alcibiades body , the matirial possesion . This is the back bone of any platonic text , it all boils down to this , objects vs ideas , and in the world of ideas , alcibiades, even alcibiades, even a man who the audience knew as corrupt and a cause of great harm for the city , is in his idealistic state. His soul is good because it exists in the idealistic world , that is the point of that little exchange , and he will be loved by socrates and at a moral hight ground as long as his soul stays intact , and on the other hand , his soul will stay intact as long as he is socrates lover . These two go hand in hand , its a knife that cuts both ways , he will be loved if he reached peak morality and he will reach peak morality if he is loved

Its also important philosophically that socrates rejects alcibiades body , and rejects objects in such a way . He is essentially saying that while alcibiades body will worsen with age , without anything anyone can do about it to stop it , unlike his body , alcibiades mind is totally in his own control , and he can chose to worsen or better his moral grounds . He can choose to take socrates as a lover , he is presented with the chance to be loved by socrates and it is a choice , unlike matirial corruption which is a result of time or forces beyond their control , moral corruption is based only in alcibiades choice not to be loved by socrates

Theres also a lot to be said about how alcibiades as a person not as a literary means would react to this , and what it would mean to him as a person , and how it changed his choices after that, but i will talk about it later .

( trans : so , my beloved alcibiades, the soul , if it means to know itself must look into a soul , and for the most part , the part of it where the souls virtiue is created , the wizdom , and wherever else it happens to bare resemblece with that? )

This again , shows the distinction between phisicality and philosophy , this time more centered around the twos relationship . Its also i think a great way to explain the whole socratic method .

Socrates is explaining here his distaste for physical contact , in his mind , spiritual enlightenmen is the true goal, which can only be found through dialoge , and through conversing with someone else . He is talking about finding knowlage through dialoge not to gain knowlage for the sake of it but so you can better understand your own self , saying this , espesially to a lover , especially to a lover who , through the simposium we know socrates had rejected physical multiple times , is not only in my opinion peak romanticism, but abselout concrete proof of socrates love for alcibiades . He is willing to walk alcibiades through it , to teach him , to help him grow , and in order to do that he will use the socratic method , which before we had seen portrayed as something very sterile but now it is being described as a bearing of the soul , as complete honesty and complete knowledge, he speaks about how we must use others as our mirrors , he wants to converse with alcibiades not to give him knowlage for the sake of it but as an expression of their love and a bonding of their souls . This , combined with the facts we know from the simposium and the general idial that in ancient greece most student teacher relationships were also romantic , solidifies the fact that to socrates , and to plato , and to philosophers in general , philosophy is a means to express their love for the world

I think its also important to say that there is a reason this very very intoductory text that basically hits all the major philosophical points is a discussion between lovers , and not between socrates and anyone else , it further proves the point that philosophy at its core is centered around curiosity yes , but also a love for the world , and a love for betterment .

( trans: i woukd like for you to continiue . I fear though , not out of lack of trust in your nature , but becayse i observe the citys power , that it will best both you and me )

Now if this was written maybe three or four decades later than it was , i would write those final words off as just some random way to close the text . HOWEVER . This was written long after alcibiades had his political peak. Long after the numerous war crimes . And i kept looking back at it . I kept questiong why plato would end it like that , why would he make socrates mention alcibiades has his complete trust , socrates is supposed to be super smart and super moral and all that stuff. Why would he put his trust in alcibiades?

Again , this ties in perfectly with the other part of the conversation where they talked about alcibiades body and what not . Again , alcibiades is portrayed as not being morally bad but as someone who has the potential to prosper , only if he makes the choice of staying with socrates . With those words a new lover is introduced, socrates competition in a way . Alcibiades will only prospect if he stays with socrates and his morality will crumble if he chooses the side of the people of athens .

This to me is the ultimate apologist behavior. Alcibiades is practically forgiven for the atrocious things hes done , and its all placed on the curroption of the people , its fhe peoples fault , its not alcibiades. Athens is portrayed as a corruptive lover, capable of seducing the boy and making him the power hungry war lord he turned out to be , this is the writers way to short of give socrates an exuse for loving alcibiades so much and also to prove that athens and the people in it trully have a tremendous power and trully are in their core , rotten and immoral.

For the texts final conclusion it is explained to us Alcibiades turned to be the way he is not out of inate lack of morality, but because his own powers , and socrates attempts, where bested by the worlds ability to ruin morality and ethics .