#the great siege of mandalore diatribe

[smhalltheurlsaretaken]

I've said all of this stuff already but I'm pissed rn and it's therapeutic to type it out:

Maul's presence on Mandalore in TCW s7 is NOT a priority. The political situation on Mandalore, while shitty, has been the same for the civilian population since s5, with or without Maul there. Things can wait a bit.

Sure, capturing Maul is possibly time sensitive (since they don't know how long he'll be on-planet), but taking back Mandalore isn't. If Maul leaves before they show up the planet is just as easy to take. Bo-Katan is using his presence as an incentive because she doesn't have the necessary forces to win, whether or not he's there. The situation is only urgent for her because if Maul leaves then the Republic has no reason to help her cause. The situation is not urgent for Mandalore because, again, it's been the same for basically a year - Maul's presence has little impact on the people, his forces are the problem and they have never left.

The Republic didn't "refuse" to help after s5, they just had no more reason to. Almec is still legitimately Prime Minister (accepted by the people) and Mandalore is an independent sovereign system that has spent actual years refusing outside interference. The second Maul bails "helping" goes back to being called "invading".

Capturing Maul is also not even a priority to the Republic (Republic =/= Jedi Order) because Palpatine ordered the Jedi to stop bothering with him in s5. Officially Maul is 'just' a crime lord, and he's not allied with the Separatists or even attacking the Republic. It's well established in TCW that the Jedi don't have the manpower to deal with the underworld anymore. What's the point of dismantling black markets and crime rings if the planet gets bombed into oblivion the next day? Priorities.

The Jedi can't do what they want with Republic resources. As awful as it is, the Clones belong to the Republic. The Jedi can be ordered to pull out of a situation whenever the Senate pleases. (see above)

Capturing Maul (what would be the Jedi's goal going to Mandalore) would really best be accomplished somewhere he doesn't have all his forces backing him up (again, confronting there is for Bo-Katan's benefit because her own goal isn't just to capture Maul but to beat his forces which she wants the Republic to do for her)

The Battle of Coruscant is ABSOLUTELY a pivotal point in the war and the main priority. The second the Separatists show up above the Republic's central seat of power? The political and military capital? The most densely populated planet in the Galaxy? It's time to drop literally everything else. The Senate is there. The Temple is there. A LOT of their troops are stationed there. There are hundreds of thousands of billions of people living there. Even pulling forces out of allied worlds to go help Coruscant wouldn't be a dick move, just a desperate one - nevermind waiting to send troops to a neutral-on-a-good-day-and-more-or-less-enemy-the-rest-of-the-time world.

The Jedi don't even refuse to help.

They don't.

Why am I typing all of this to defend their refusal to help? They don't refuse to help.

Obi-Wan wants to take a hot minute to THINK ABOUT the implications of going guns blazing into neutral sovereign territory to confront a dude who has an extremely personal vendetta against him and is known to set traps of precisely this kind. (And Obi-Wan is right to consider these things because HEY! IT IS A TRAP! MAUL SLAUGHTERS A BUNCH OF CLONES AS A BREADCRUMBS TRAIL TO LEAD SOMEONE HE HOPES TO BE OBI-WAN INTO A TRAP!)

Obi-Wan also answers to the rest of Council, just like every other Council member. Bo-Katan gets pissy that he's not giving an answer right that instant because SHE needs Maul to still be there, but thinking things through is literally Obi-Wan's job description.

And after all this, after the attack on Coruscant and the political considerations, THE JEDI DON'T EVEN REFUSE TO HELP.

The Mandalorian traditionalists' favorite pastime is attempting to kill Jedi. Not too long ago, Bo was right there when Pre was trying to kill Obi-Wan. And then trying to kill Ahsoka. And then allying with the Sith (who notoriously want to kill all the Jedi) on two separate occasions (Dooku and Maul). The Mandos PRIDE THEMSELVES on hating the Jedi. There has never been in canon an instance of a Prequels-era Mando warrior helping a Jedi out for altruistic motives.

Bo-Katan is appealing to the Order's decency (saying that her people suffer etc etc) but she doesn't even have the honesty to couch it as a real, desperate plea for help. Instead she presents the situation as transactional, as though she was bringing anything concrete onto the table. If the Republic comes in, takes Mandalore for her and captures Maul, she has contributed to the effort how, exactly? What has she given the Republic? How many people fight for her is left pretty vague but we really don't see that many of them. Plus it's her planet. Fighting for it isn't her giving the Republic anything, it's still her helping herself. And yet she gets incredibly pissed when Obi-Wan takes time to examine the 'deal.'

In light of the two previous arguments, the Jedi would in fact have been perfectly justified in telling Bo to eat some freaking humble pie.

THE JEDI. DON'T REFUSE. TO HELP.

Sure it's Obi-Wan specifically who okays the operation, before the rest of the Council can make a decision, but do they order the troops to pull out afterwards? Nope. Do they sanction him? Nope.

They do help.

They really shouldn't have let Bo-Katan in charge but hey, they get all massacred after that and the Republic's backing is literally what gives Bo-Katan legitimacy in the eyes of many clans for decades after (see the Protectors' position in Rebels. Her legitimacy stems from SATINE'S and the Republic apparently backing her up as Satine's heir. It's not from kicking Maul out.)

(I love Bo-Katan as a character but as a person she's. huh. a lot. She changed from outright villain to morally gray character because the villains got a lot worse not bc she got better lmo)

So the Jedi absolutely did help afgfdsdfgfdsdfd why are people getting pissy about Obi-Wan - who has a complicated history with Mandalore that involves a loved one getting murdered in front of his eyes by Maul - hesitating to help

They really didn't refuse to help.

They really had every reason to

It would have been perfectly reasonable in fact

Yeah they have a mandate to protect innocent people but there were a lot more innocent people on Coruscant

Innocent people who did want their help instead of yelling GTFO every time they showed up

Because the Mando civilians sure didn't want them there

Oh and also? They didn't refuse to help

[smhalltheurlsaretaken]

“bo-katan never wanted maul [on Mandalore] to begin with, not sure if you watched the show, it was kind of pre-vizla's plan that went wrong”

Bo-Katan, on bringing Maul to Mandalore, in the show:

Yeah, these two f*ckwits didn’t plan on Maul staying there once they were done using him. 

Yeah, Bo-Katan didn’t want Maul ruling Mandalore. 

The both of them only wanted to bring a Sith Lord to their home planet to reinstate the honorable might-makes-right way of picking a leader, and they were too f*cking stupid to see how that was inevitably going to backfire and blow up right in their faces. 

(Spoilers: the mighty Sith Lord kicked their ass and legitimately ended up leader per the rules they reinstated using him)

[smhalltheurlsaretaken]

Like fr I stand by the fact that from the Jedi’s pov Dooku’s minions threatening the Republic is an infinitely bigger deal than Darth-I’m-the-Sith’s-Biggest-(Living)-Failure-Maul. 

Count-I-Wipe-the-Floor-With-Council-Members-On-The-Regular-I-Control-Gigantic-Multi-Billion-Corporations-I-Work-For-an-Unseen-Master-and-I-Want-the-Republic-Gone-Dooku is so very, very higher up on the Jedi’s enemies list compared to a rogue asshole with limited connections who managed to lose to a Padawan twice in his life and whose entire aspirations can be summed by ‘really wants to kill Obi-Wan Kenobi’ it’s just hilarious to compare the two. 

Maul is a murderous cockroach you really hope you’ll manage to hit the next time he crosses your living room and Dooku is the guy bombing your house.

guys I'm so sorry for the horrendously long post that's probably hitting your dashes but I'm particularly salty about huhhhhh calling Obi-Wan's 2 minutes of hesitation over going to Mandalore proof of the Jedi's moral failure or smth. Actually, had he told Bo-Katan to go kriff herself, which he didn't, I still don't think that'd have been proof of the Order's unrighteousness or anything.

[smhalltheurlsaretaken]

About that first part. That's false. Here's how the dialogue goes

Anakin: So, the attack on Mandalore was approved? Obi-Wan: No, it's Coruscant. Grievous has attacked the capitol. Anakin: What about the Chancellor? Obi-Wan: Shaak Ti has been sent to protect him, but Master Windu has lost contact with her. Not to worry. Our fleet can be there within the hour. Ahsoka: So that's it? You're going to abandon Bo-Katan and her people? Obi-Wan: Ahsoka, surely you understand this is a pivotal moment in the Clone Wars. The heart of the Republic is under attack. Ahsoka: I understand that, as usual, you're playing politics.

She has exactly the information that I presented. That Coruscant is attacked and that (a trillion) people need them. Obi-Wan even says so after what I quoted, but she's the one to retort that they're only rushing because the Chancellor might be in danger. She's choosing to view the situation through the lenses of politics before it's even confirmed that Obi-Wan and Anakin's mission is to retrieve Palps. She's choosing to see only half of the picture and shuts down (twice) Obi-Wan's reminders that Coruscanti civilians are in danger.

Admittedly, my Dooku argument was faulty, I realized afterward that they didn't know right away that he was there. You're right there. It doesn't change the rest of the argument: that they knew that the danger Dooku posed as the leader of the Separatists was greater than Maul's own dealings with the underworld and what was happening on Mandalore. They have, at that point, very recently learned that Dooku comissioned the army and that the war is entirely fabricated - ergo, each and every move by the Separatists is very, very, very concerning, because they know it's being planned with intel from Dooku's Sith Master inside the Republic. Ergo, YES, PROTECTING CORUSCANT IS A BIG DEAL. They don't know what the Sith's plans are regarding it! They are playing chess blind and 20 moves behind and they know it and they're being asked to divert ressources to defend a player that's not even on the board by its own choice (since Mandalore as staunchly refused to be involved with Republic business up to this point and the Mandalorians who are asking for help now were working for the Separatists not too long ago).

I'm NOT saying the people of Mandalore deserve to suffer for Death Watch's catastrophic decision making. I'm saying that the Jedi aren't free independant agents, that the Republic's army is there to defend the Republic, and that the Jedi also can't be expected to put out all of the Galaxy's fires at the same time. They're not omnipotent and their ressources and numbers are already stretched very, very thin. (Also, huh, yeah, Bo-Katan 100% wanted Maul on Mandalore, she just didn't want him on the throne lmao. Just watch the scene where Pre decides to use Maul as a tool for his coup, 5x14 - she puts up a show of not wanting to ally with a Sith, piques Maul's ego, and when he's done strangling her and vehemently promising them they'll get Mandalore, she turns to Pre and they both grin like CRAZY. Plus in that scene her entire argument for 'not wanting Maul there' - which she does - is that Sith are 'no better than Jedi' so huh... YEAH. It's a BIT ironic that she tries to guilt trip the Jedi into helping with a problem she helped create. She had no issue with the plan when it involved getting rid of Maul when they were done with him. It's not the people of Mandalore's fault, granted. It's also not the Jedi fault if they can't help there.)

AND THE JEDI DON'T EVEN REFUSE TO HELP THE MANDALORIANS. Like, what is this whole debate even about? The second Obi-Wan is presented with a reasonable compromise to help both Coruscant and Mandalore, he agrees. He even checks in on the situation later on and provides intel. That he hesitated the whole of an hour when presented with the issue of violating a planet's neutrality (because going to Mandalore is interventionism, prohibitied by a bunch of treaties Mandalore wanted in place, and because again, Mandalore's entire position during the war from all Mandalorian factions was: 'Republic fck off, we don't want you here EVER) is completely reasonable for someone with that much responsibility. The last time he went unsanctioned to Mandalore, Maul killed Satine and the situation deteriorated. But the point is, THEY DON'T EVEN REFUSE TO HELP. And the Council doesn't censure Obi-Wan or order the troops lended to pull back, and they trust Ahsoka with those troops. So what are we discussing here?

So no, they are not 'only willing to help themselves'. And yeah, actually, still accepting to go help the civilians of a world that's repeatedly tried to frick you over or refused your help is pretty righteous. And no, the Jedi primarily fighting their own battles instead of immediately fighting the battles of their not-even-allies-and-almost-enemies for them doesn't change that.

For real, that the Jedi have dedicated their life to service doesn't entitle everyone to berate for not saying 'yes' fast enough when they're still assessing a very delicate situation while dealing with their own shitshow of a conflict (with far more endangered civilians might I add). Bo-Katan was watching her boss pour the oil and lit the match of the fire that's threatening Mandalore and she did nothing, and she gets pissy at the Jedi for saying they might not have enough water for that and the RAGING INFERNO CURRENTLY THREATENING A NUCLEAR POWER PLANT (to push the metaphor), and you think she's got a point??? The woman who just a year prior stood by when Pre enslaved the Ming Po women and burned their village down and almost killed 16-yo-Ahsoka for the crime of being a Jedi??? You think Ahsoka allying with HER is narrative proof that Ahsoka is more moral and more reasonable than all of the Jedi Order???? (Not saying that I blame Ahsoka for any of this or don't understand why she's acting like she is. STILL. Bo-Katan is not a desperate innocent in this scenario. The Jedi are desperate though.)

And AGAIN. The Jedi DID. HELP. After questioning things for an hour. Tops.

Also? Frankly, talking about the Jedi only being willing to help themselves? Is really rich in relation to the Mandalore crisis. Cause like, the Jedi themselves gain nothing from being in the war, except that they get to die in droves on the front lines in a conflict for civilians who are barely grateful. Bo-Katan and her faction never lended a hand to anyone up to that point and are angrily demanding that people focus on THEIR problem and give them troops (not like they'd ever help the Jedi protect Republic civilians or anything) and what Bo-Katan has to gain is control of an entire planet. If we're dissing the Jedi on the basis that saving Coruscant is playing politics (which is a laughable claim, really), then what is handing Mandalore over to her after she enthusiatically helped Pre Vizsla throw crime lords at the unsuspecting civilian population of that planet to force them to reject Satine? Seems like politics to me, only a lot shittier.

I UNDERSTAND being frustrated with the Jedi being caught between a rock and a hard place, but giving them grief for trying their best to defend the Republic while dealing with a known Sith lord, a hidden Sith lord, a death cyborg, a rogue Sith Lord and their own looming destruction that they were starting to feel coming and pinning their inability to help everyone everywhere at all times on moral failure is at best very uncharitable.

I'm rewatching the siege of Mandalore, and WOW Bo-Katan is insufferable, and Ahsoka's reaction to Coruscant being attacked makes me want to shake my girl until she gets over the bitchiness she caught from her ladyship Mandalorian Redhead Hypocrite Extraordinaire and starts acting like a rational person who is aware that a TRILLION people in immediate danger might be a bigger issue than the Mandos who've been at their bullshit for months and whose stalemate won't even change until the Republic actually shows up to Sundari.