#the duffers say they love Steve and yet we never get anything for him

[starry-eyed-steve]

It seems like they are going to explore Hopper's ptsd after escaping Russia, which is great. I love that for him. However, I can't say I'm not bitter that they tortured 18 year old Steve and 17 year old Robin in s3 and never mentioned it again. I see who the favorites are.

[krokodilsredimudil]

Stranger things | Welcome to the Dollhouse (1995)

TW: homophobia, slurs, bullying, SA, minors in sexual situations (yeah...)

The movie is a horrifying grotesque slice of life that shows how miserable (and fucked up) a pre-teen's life can be. A lot of triggering topics. I warned y'all

Here I'll be talking about the Wheelers and their counterparts from the movie, the Wieners, the disappearance of Holly (?) Wheeler, homophobic bullies, Nancy, Will and Mike and how their characters were inspired by the protagonist.

Meet the Wieners. (the Wheelers??). A middle class nuclear family. A happy looking family, right?

Harv Wiener. A dominating figure in the photo. An ever-absent father who is always passive and is never communicating with his kids. A picture we're all familiar with.

The Wheeler's family photo is framed in a similar manner. A dominating father in the picture who ironically doesn't do anything at all.

Marj Wiener. The mother who only cares for the well-being of her youngest child and is extremely toxic and manipulative. However, she's the only "active" parent. (She's not similar to Karen character-wise but still)

Mark Wiener (MIKE WHEELER!!!). The eldest child, "king of the nerds".

First, look at the guy and his clothing:

Now THE BEDROOM. That shade of blue ... The posters ... The nerdiness ... It's a reference, your honor!

Missy Wiener. The youngest. A promising ballerina, a ray of sunshine, is essentially a spoiled child with ill intentions. Holly's not like her in any way. However, they might just bear one small plot similarity.

Kidnapping / disappearance. We don't know yet if that's Holly who goes missing in season 5. If so, that would be a further reference.

I hope Holly won't turn up in the UD / HNL / the cave.

Dawn Wiener. The protagonist. The most miserable person, she's extremely bullied by her peers AND by her family. She's utterly unloved and craves love deeply. That's a pre-teen played by a literal pre-teen.

Dawn is Nancy, Mike and Will in different aspects.

The introduction scene is literally her being bullied for 'being a lesbian' (she's not, but that's beside the point)

Will-Dawn parallels don't end here.

Dawn has a place for 'special people'. Yep, Castle Byers was inspired by this Special People Club.

The clubhouse gets destroyed here too. The clubhouse = innocence, childhood.

Here it was destroyed by Dawn's mother because she was selfish and didn't give a fuck about Dawn. In ST Will destroyed the castle himself (how I love that scene)

Now Nancy-Dawn parallels.

Dawn is in love with a sixteen-year-old Steve Rodgers, the most popular guy at school and the horniest as well (he slept with everybody, including pre-teens)

She even tries to change herself so that he notices her. She wants to look more mature, she wants him to sleep with her because only that will make her feel loved and worthy.

That's season 1 Nancy who tried to appeal to Steve 'King' Harrington.

Now Mike. The middle child who lacks self-confidence but can defend others.

Dawn defended a boy who was bullied for 'being gay'.

The whole situation is atrocious but the fact that the Duffers inverted the scene is hilarious.

Now Troy is the homophobic bully, how the turntables.

Overall, the movie doesn't give you hope that it's going to be better. It says 'you're stuck in this hell forever' but that's only a pre-teen's POV. Life sucks and you can't do anything about it, only grow up. I'm happy that the writers didn't stick to this message and gave the core four some moments of happiness (unlike here).

Other movie parallels

[steveharrington]

Steve is fundamentally a fan-service character. That is why he is given no depth, and that the majority of his situation is portrayed from a comedic relief angle, meme-able moments, and stuff like ''being a babysitter''. Is it enjoyable enough? I mean, sure, Steve fills that fanservice character role and people enjoy him being charming and funny, so the show portrays him that way. But he does not provide anything else other than that in the story. And just because he is given screentime does not make him an important part of the show either. He is a lovable, cool, and charming character that captured fans' hearts, and he receives screen time and fan service moments based on that. But I just do not get why people expect the writers to give Steve an actual storyline or real connection to the supernatural plot when his character was never meant to be given one, and his character is largely portrayed as a comedic relief or a fanservice funny character.

im going to challenge this because i think it's a bad writing practice to partition one character off as the designated Fan Service Character and think that absolves you, the writer, of giving them depth or realism. when we're thinking about characters...idk my personal belief is that they should feel like real people. saying "oh well that's just the comedic relief so we don't have to acknowledge that it's the fourth year in a row of him coming face to face with supernatural horrors in a way that either physically or mentally alters him" is just a cop-out and an excuse for lazy writing imo. and steve isn't some random side character who barely gets screen time either, like he isn't angela or tommy or mr. clarke, he's Heavily featured every season. he had the 2nd most lines in season two. idk i think if i, the viewer, am gonna be spending that much time watching a character, i'd like for them to have some semblance of a relevant plot or connection to the main storyline.

people expect steve to get a storyline or a connection to the supernatural plot because it's straight up bizarre for him to be in the middle of an enormous catastrophic supernatural event that always effects him personally, and yet somehow the show never acknowledges it. in season one a classmate dies in his pool and he discovers monsters exist, then fights one in close proximity. in season two another one of his classmates almost murders him. in season three he's tied up and tortured and drugged. in season four he's eaten alive by monsters. again if the duffers want their characters to feel like real people who exist within this story, at least one of those things should be important to steve's story! they should be acknowledged!

also i would argue that steve wasn't created To Be Fanservice. i won't argue that he's become a fanservice-centric character, but that wasn't like his only purpose in the story throughout the series. i think people have a recency bias when they look at steve's storyline, but he really didn't become such a heavily comedic character until season three. in season one he's a villain, like he serves to antagonize jonathan and represent this normalcy and stability in nancy's life that she rapidly moves away from as she searches for barb. and in season two, steve has a beautiful and like genuinely meaningful storyline. he starts off the season envisioning his future with nancy, he gets his heart broken, he gets roped into investigating supernatural happenings with this random kid who he could easily just ditch or dump on someone else but he stays, gives the kid advice based off his current emotional state, then continues to protect the others from the demodogs and billy and it gives him this obvious fulfillment and increased emotional maturity that allows him to finally let go of the relationship and future he was picturing. it was amazing and steve felt real and people loved it not because like "haha funny babysitter" but because it was very genuinely sweet to watch a disillusioned teenage boy form a bond with this dorky kid that benefitted both of them emotionally. it wasnt until seasons 3 & 4 that steve's potential storylines became sidelined for the sake of throwaway funny moments or like.... unrealistic healing abilities

idk i just think people connect with steve based off what we saw in seasons 1 & 2 and they're interested in his full potential if the writers would just utilize it. but because the duffers can't seem to balance an ensemble cast and because steve is easy to market he has become (game show audience voices) abandoned! by! the! narrative! but it doesn't have to be this way and it shouldn't, if stranger things wants to be recognized as a well written show with good character work

[thestobingirlie]

Hey!! So I was scrolling through your blog and I completely agree with your opinion of Nancy. I can not tolerate Nancy in the show at all and I acknowledge some of that is due to the fact that the show writers and the some of the fandom paint her as perfect. (The other part is that she reminds of people who didn’t treat me well in school.)  She's not. She has flaws. She's selfish. I don't know if that's the right word, but it's the one I have. And that’s fine to start out with but the second they started making it seem Nancy was in the right all the time, they doomed her character. Like when Steve apologizes for being a bad boyfriend, there just isn’t any evidence for that? He goes to dinner with Barb’s parents with Nancy, and it’s clear that he adores her. And also, do people really think Nancy didn’t cheat? She makes it quite clear to Murray that she’s in a relationship with Steve and then later that day she sleeps with Jonathan. She strings along Steve for a year only because she was waiting for Jonathan to be ready. And Nancy never apologizes! For any of her mistakes. She makes them! But no one treats them like problems! I just can’t like her character, the Duffers intend on writing her as this perfect character and everyone treats her as such in the media, which feels unnatural and just makes me so mad. And that has trailed over into the way I perceive material about her. And maybe her character is still redeemable, but with the way the Duffer Brothers are taking this, I don’t it will be. I think Nancy could have been a compelling character, like the way Steve is, but the Duffers messed it up.  ~@thestrangerthingsmeadow

the sad thing about nancy is that i think i totally would’ve liked her if she’d been written better. as it stands, she’s never even actually had a character arc (because no, giving a girl guns doesn’t count).

and yes, though the show doesn’t want you to think it, nancy does have flaws. she’s very single minded, once she’s gotten her mind set on something, nothing can dissuade her, which means that she isn’t particularly empathetic, and she hurts people without thinking. and she’s been this way since the very beginning.

now, like you said, this wouldn’t actually be an issue, if she’d ever learnt from it. as it stands, she’s never had to apologise when she makes mistakes, in fact, the show doesn’t even present them as mistakes!

it is very clear that nancy cheats on steve, she literally says she loves him like an hour before she sleeps with jonathan. but because nancy can do no wrong, the show pretends it doesn’t happen. steve has to take the cheating graciously to show how much he’s grown (he’s not even allowed to be mad he got cheated on!) and no consequences for nancy. and yes, we have to believe steve is a bad boyfriend, because otherwise what nancy did was out of line, and fucked up. steve deserved better than to be someone’s back up. to be used so nancy didn’t have to wait alone until jonathan finally asked her out.

but one example that really annoys me is nancy and jonathan’s argument in s3.

so, first, this argument happens because nancy put the blinkers on, and refused to consider anyone else’s opinion. they’re both in the wrong in the fight, both say things they shouldn’t. but we see nancy talk it out with her mum, who totally supports her. and yet we never see anything similar for jonathan. he gets no opportunity to have someone on his side, to back him up. and this is a key example where the show so obviously wants us to side with nancy. to ignore her faults, and support her wholeheartedly. we aren’t supposed to think she’s done anything wrong.

and that’s why i can’t like canon nancy. a character making mistake and having flaws isn’t a bad thing, but it is when those mistakes are never acknowledged. when the show actively pretends they don’t exist, that makes a character intolerable.

obviously nancy has her good sides, and there are parts to her character that i like. but i’d like her a hell of a lot more if the show acknowledged her faults, and gave her the space to grow and change as a person, rather than stagnating.

i don’t think the duffers will be able to totally save nancy’s character by the end of the show (especially after s4. i had hoped them bringing up barb would mean we’d get something, but no. it seems her dead body was just used to scare nancy) but i do hope we get at least a little development.

[lovestuckyhatemarvel]

Chapter Six: E Pluribus Unum. I’m gonna vomit on the Duffer Brothers, I swear to God.

1.) I forgot that Russian recovered from a head wound that knocked him out super fast.

2.) I also forgot how close they got to the gate during their escape.

3.) Robin and Steve hold the doors so Dustin and Erica can escape. Also there’s no conversation before it happens, Steve just kind of does it and Dustin is like ‘I won’t forget you’ and leaves.

4.) This chase would be more impressive if it wasn’t relying on gross CGI. Like, the demogorgon is objectively a less scary design but because there was a dude in a suit for a lot of it, it’s still more impressive than the mind flayer at the end of the day.

5.) The mind flayer is connecting all of the victims, right? So could Heather see what her father was doing? Could she see his last moments before he was killed? Could she feel it?

7.) Mayor Kline presents Fun Fair.

8.) The carnival ride that the Russian holds the mayor in goes wicked fast. Does that ride normally go that fast or is this like the elevator?

9.) Strawberry and cherry slurpees taste different, Hopper. You absolute animal.

10.) I’m glad he likes strawberry too. And glad Hopper finally wasn’t stupid.

11.) Lucas Charles Sinclair.

12.) Erica is such a little sister to be like “Everything else tracks, but my brother is a little bitch so that part doesn’t.”

13.) Dustin knowing that much about My Little Pony is actually a little weird from what I know of the franchise. Bronies are more modern.

14.) My poor boy Steve. This part I remember a lot because it’s put in so many fucking Steddie fics. Steve is actually a very good liar. I forgot he offers them ice cream though.

15.) The Russians illicit the most terrified laughter out of Steve by laughing.

16.) Robin is so worried about Steveeeee.

17.) Robin spits in his face. I forgot she did that. My queen.

18.) Mike is being a ridiculous white knight.

19.) Hopper is having an absolute panic attack after learning about the upside down.

20.) “Breaking in is impossible.” Cuts to the literal children who managed it.

21.) lmaooooo Erica casually saying, “Deadly weapon, could be useful” is one of the best lines of this season.

22.) Steve was unconscious for IDK how long. Also I think he’s got a broken rib.

23.) I love Robin and Steve so much.

24.) I just realized I don’t know why Steve and Robin were in the same sophomore English class if they’re not in the same grade. Did Steve have to repeat sophomore English or did the Duffers not realize they were in different graduating classes yet?

25.) Could the props department not make that needle retract? It’s like barely against his skin.

26.) I forgot the kids don’t check on Steve or Dustin like at all.

27.) We got a flashback to El’s bio mom.

28.) I believe this episode takes place July 4th, 1985, which makes it exactly 4 years before I was born. That’s not relevant to anything, it’s just interesting.

29.) I feel bad for baby Billy, but not adult Billy. Adult Billy still wanted to kill Lucas and did nearly kill Steve. And neither of those things happened because of the Mindflayer. And his dad being shit isn’t an excuse either. I was abused all throughout my childhood and I never beat someone into a concussion.

30.) “Thank you, and good day!” Joyce screams into a phone.

31.) i forgot how funny Robin and Steve are when they’re high.

32.) Oh I forgot a fingernail almost gets ripped out before Robin announces they cracked it in a day.

33.) I forgot that somehow Dustin ended up with the deadly weapon and probably killed the torturer.

34.) Okay so Billy’s speech makes more sense now in hindsight considering what I know about season 4 (although I did not watch season 4 yet like at all).

35.) I forgot Billy’s the only Flayed person that doesn’t turn into bad CGI goo. RIP disposable people.

[two-sides-samecoin]

I just saw a post a couple of days ago that Steve stans are too dramtic about the Stancy breakup and that he wasn't traumatised by the bathroom scene and that he wouldn't flinch when he hears the word "bullshit" because Nancy is a loving character who wouldn't purposefully hurt people. And I'm like okay? Well he has every right to be hurt or even a little traumatised. Imagine being accused of murder by your own girlfriend and then in the next sentence she tells you she doesn't even love you while you're head over heels for her. Also in s3 he kinda internalized the word bullshit for him when talking to Robin in the Russian base. Like he genuinely believes he and his actions were bullshit. And idk if he would get a new partner and they would fight, I'm sorry him having flashbacks to when Nancy dropped those bombs on him is understandable. But yeah only Nancy's is allowed to be traumatised in that relationship because Steve was the worst, he never listened. When actually the scene they are talking about is the one where Nancy said she wants to break the NDA and Steve's like stop no that's dangerous. God forbid he wanted to keep her safe and not let her do something stupid. But the way ppl use this and say here he dismissed her feelings and pushed her to go to the party is crazy. Especially before that she wanted to go so badly she even invited Jonathan and she and Steve had couples costumes planned. If you think Steve would have forced her to go, he wouldn't if she truly didn't want to. That's like the only scene we got with a glimpse of their problem in the relationship. Just because he shut the idea down to talk about Barb with Barb's parents doesn’t mean he's super dismissive of her feelings. And tbh I feel like Nancy always blamed him (and herself) for the death of her friend, every time they would talk about it she would say it between the lines subconsciously, ofc Steve didn't want to hear it. It's insane that he isn't allowed to cope in a different way with this trauma than Nancy.

it’s wild that people say that steve stans are too dramatic when it’s a breakup like it’s supposed to be emotional. A breakup is devastating no matter how it ends and this just just ended so badly that it is emotional. also like no matter if it wasn’t purposefully nancy still decided to hurt steve and then never actually make up for the hurt that she caused him. there wasn’t even a sorry or anything so it’s just exhausting how people just want to paint nancy as completely right. and yes like steve has every right to feel upset about it (one time i read a fic where the author just used a character to shame steve for being upset about that whole talk in the bathroom and thinking about it just makes me want to scream) and it just feels like they complain about steve people not understanding steve while the antis also rip away the fact that he’s a character who has feelings. JUST LET HIM HAVE SOME FEELINGS! and also it’s so bizarre because like i said breakups are hard and yet they’re constantly acting like it’s sooo insane for steve to feel hurt after the breakup.

anyway yeah about steve internalizing it in season 3 because he does and it’s very clear that he has internalized that he was bullshit that nancy told him. because the duffers not long after steve admitting that everything was bullshit to robin - they have a question where steve does bring up nancy and it’s about love. like it’s all right there falling into place. and it’s also fucked up that people just don’t want steve to be upset when there is a whole bunch to this. steve gave up his friends and popularity - and while yes it was for himself it was also partly something to do with nancy. so steve gives up everything that he’s ever known to be with nancy all to realize that nancy never loved him in the first place and that steve would never be enough for her. that’s just - it’s sooo damaging !!

oh he would soo have flashbacks to that moment if him and his new partner fought! absolutely though like people only act like nancy is allowed to be traumatized and it’s so fucked up! i am so glad that you brought up the NDAS because god i have a rant rn that i need to get out. in this scene steve is just trying to be protective over the people he cares about and people act like steve is somehow wrong for being afraid of the gov that stole children from their homes to use them as experiments, bugged people’s homes, put a Will dummy in the water to make it look like he died, and threatened everyone with the fact that they could kill the people they love. yet somehow steve’s genuine fear of these people is just pushed to the side in the whole stancy thing because people cannot think for one second how scary this would be. on top of that : i’m so sorry and i understand why nancy would want to tell barb’s parents but if the two (mainly nancy) of them had actually told - barb’s parents would have been furious because all they would’ve seen was two people using their missing daughter as a weapon/prank. because it is not normal to say that barb got eaten up a demogorgon/monster. they probs would’ve gotten throw into pennhurst or some shit like that. there is no way in hell that barb’s parents would’ve believed them about the truth and there’s even more evidence because in canon they even used a cover story of how barb died all because murray said something. which wild to me how steve has just been saying and worried over the exact same shit but when murray does it, it’s taken soooo much more seriously in canon and by the fandom.

Okay but you’re so right about that party! i hate how people say that he just forced her to go meanwhile in the scenes right before nancy showed genuine enthusiasm to going! and she even complained about how jonathan didn’t want to go! nancy wanted to go and invite jonathan and did everything in her power to persuade him to go - that doesn’t sound like someone being forced to go to a party because their boyfriend is going. yep yep yep just because he shut down the talk of her telling barb’s parents the whole truth - it doesn’t mean that he’s dismissive of how she feels. in fact he’s doing everything in his power to take care of her feelings and show support in how he feels. but good forbid he shut down talk of them saying something that could get everyone he loves killed- that somehow must mean he doesn’t care about nancy’s feelings. it’s just so fucking absurd atp.

yeah i’ve always seen nancy as blaming herself and steve for barb’s death. oh god yes about that last sentence!!!! it’s also absurd because people always defend the way in which nancy copes and they never want it to be criticized yet somehow when we (steve stan’s mainly) say that steve is coping differently and that he’s just trying his best: we get blamed to hell and back for making excuses for him. it’s just ahhh : they’re both traumatized teens but god forbid they cope in different ways

this got hella long but i love talking about this and you said a lot that i agree with and wanted to expand on

[saturnaftertaste]

i think about the RV stancy scene a lot. how many people have called it out for being a backslide into a pairing that was given closure? that it was the imprisonment of nancy in a relationship that doesn’t give her the agency to chase her dreams of adventure and independence and caters to steve’s domestic american fantasy? like, ever since the season came out there’s been complaints about the stancy angle of it all, how out of character it was for both of them to be interested in getting back together and blah blah blah. i don’t blame them! the duffers are duffers, they can’t write for shit. it was intended as a stancy revival. but i also can’t stop thinking about how in-character it is for the both of them -- particularly steve

like. its set up from the very beginning, like season 1 beginning, that steve is not a bad person. when nancy tells him to back off, he does. when tommy makes fun of jonathan after will goes missing, he tells him to shut up. invites barb, even though he doesn’t have to, makes sure nancy’s comfortable when they sleep together. none of this is like, gold star behaviour, but its evidence of steve being a good person -- good enough that you don’t have to look very far to justify rooting for him.

granted, the stuff that comes later -- the cinema board and the fight with jonathan in the alley -- is genuinely awful, but we the audience know why nancy and jonathan are together; steve very much does not, and even then once the fight is over, he cleans off the board, shows up of his own volition to try and apologize, and buys jonathan a new camera. not saying that it wasn’t a terrible thing to do, but there is a sort of blurring here between what steve the character knows and what the audience knows. again, all evidence points to him essentially being a normal decent person who is unaware of the genre he is living and just very caught up in the high-school-ness of it all.

same thing runs through season 2. goes to dinner with barb’s parents, helps dustin with his girl/hair problems (tries to) five minutes into being recruited into baiting dart, lets nancy off easy after she cheats on him, throws himself in front of monsters of various kinds (human and not) for kids that he barely knows. again and again, we are told that steve is awful, and yet we are shown that he is not. continues throughout season 3 and 4 -- which lets us the audience come to the following conclusions:

1. steve is a actually a good person

2. steve cares deeply about others

3. steve is willing to do anything to save the party

which brings me to my next set of points concerning the RV scene.

- we know that steve gets attached very fast very easily; we see this with dustin and max and lucas specifically, with robin and eddie (to a certain extent) and especially nancy. now -- how much people are attached to him is never fully established. yes, he’s popular; but he blows up his own popularity in season 1 by beating up his so-called best friend. we know that he has parents, but they’re not around much (?); we know that he was with nancy for the better part of two years but she secretly thought he was “bullshit” for a long time. it isn’t until robin comes along that we see steve have someone who has his back like he does theirs -- in essence you have a very lonely boy who feels his connections are fleeting 95% of the time -- not in a woe-is-me, i’m-so-alone kind of way, but moreso suck-it-up-and-deal kinda way.

which is where the whole jancy vs. stancy debate comes in.

- he lets her off easy in season 2 -- puts the responsibility of the situation on himself, and the whole cheating thing/choosing jonathan thing is never brought up to her again. he still loves her, obviously, but he believes that he’s not what she wants, so he lets it go so she can be happy. perhaps he believes that he didn’t make her understand just how important she was to him, how much love he had for her, but nevertheless, this ticks off both conclusions 1 and 2.

- in season 4, he isn’t the one that brings up that nancy might still be into him. that’s eddie, for whatever fan-made reason you want to believe. steve tells her later, that it was her leaving him that prompted a change in his behaviour, which, while factually false, is not actually him trying to win her back or whatever. it’s him trying to explain to her just how much her opinion of him mattered, how much he respected her values. the power in this situation is in nancy’s hands, like it always has been. the thing is though, that narratively they haven’t reached the greatest stakes, so it’s just a partial attempt at speaking his truth.

- jonathan isn’t here. nancy is gawking at steve, talking to him, treating him like an equal as both a friend and a monster-hunter. he still doesn’t try anything. no aborted kisses or hand-holding or anything of the sort. clearly, CLEARLY, this means that he isn’t trying to Get Her Back. does he love her? yes, obviously, that’s why he’s disappointed when she throws herself immediately into jonathan’s arms when he gets back. did he try and woo her? no.

and that’s what the RV scene is a testament to. he is deeply attached to nancy, romantically and platonically, but:

1. he is a good person so he doesn’t actively try to win her back. he looks out for the kids and dives in first and does all the heroic things, but that’s because he always does the heroic things. that’s just steve. the fact that nancy finds dashing do-gooders attractive is her business.

2. he cares about people deeply, but in different ways. he listens to robin talk about girls and dustin talk about suzie and with nancy, he accepts that she’s with jonathan, because thats what makes her happy. ergo, once again, he’s not trying to woo her.

3. he would do anything to save the party, and i think because he was knowingly on the way to battle a SUPREMELY terrifying villain, and because he’s traveling with, you know, a truck full of people that he loves dearly and because he’s repeatedly proven himself to be the one that holds the front of the line, it’s not too far out to think he believes he’s not gonna make it out alive. robin even says it while they’re making molotovs. the idea of him dying is on his mind, so, reiterating what i said earlier about how he took on responsibility for being a “bad boyfriend” -- where it was more a matter of their coping mechanisms not matching up but instead it translating as steve not taking nancy’s feelings seriously/making her feel important and heard -- he tries to re-establish that she is important to him. there’s no way steve doesn’t know about nancy’s ambition, her interests, her independent streak. he has to know that his dream is not built for her. but he tells her -- and mind you, this is the first we’re hearing of this dream -- how central she is to that. not to try and get her to fall in line with it, but more to establish that yeah, you were so important to me that when i dreamed up a future where i’m happy, you were there. you were so important to me -- are so important to me (because let’s face it, steve is still very much into nancy) that you’re always there in the secret private hidden version of my world where i’m content.

it’s not really an attempt to get her to love him again, i think. it’s more of a confession of how much she really meant to him, something that i don’t think would’ve been a topic of discussion during the year that they were trying to be ‘normal’ or after that when she left him for jonathan. romantically, it’s not a gambit that would’ve worked, and he’s not stupid enough to say it like that. it’s literally preceded by him talking in hypotheticals, which in itself is preceded by a thank-you for breaking up with him. it doesn’t makes sense for him to be using it as a romantic tactic, because he’s a good person. he’s changed. even if he wanted to, and he does, he wouldn’t do it -- she wouldn’t fall for it anyway.

+ bonus: by the way, it isn’t out of character for nancy to be into steve again with jonathan away either. she was very much into Steve ‘The Hair’ Harrington, but we know that she wants someone kind and quick and supportive -- qualities that jonathan has, qualities that steve developed over the course of his arc through the seasons. of course she sees him protect the kids and jump into the lake first and keep going to keep them all safe and of course it re-awakens her interest. shit’s natural. and while it could’ve been done differently, it still fits with the previous pattern of behaviour we’ve seen from nancy.

anyway tldr: not a romantic gesture. just a facing-down-death-with-a-clean-heart-no-regrets kind of gesture.

oooooooh im gonna write a steve post

[marvelwinchester67]

MAJOR STRANGER THINGS VOLUME 2 SPOILERS BELOW

………………………………………………………………………………

Honestly, fuck the duffer brothers. The minute Nancy said she wanted to kill Vecna I knew something would go horribly wrong.

The minute that Eddie cut that damn rope and decided to stay behind I knew something would happen. Yet I held onto the hope that he’d be ok and Dustin would reach him in time.

I’m sorry, but if Steve can survive the demo-bats, why couldn’t Eddie? Why couldn’t he live? What was the fucking point of any of the last two episodes if they were just gonna kill off one of THE BEST characters to be introduced on this god forsaken show? It was supposed to be his year, and instead, he sacrificed himself for no goddamn reason.

Because the whole town still believes him to be a murderer and satanist. The only one who even remotely cares for him (besides Dustin) is his uncle. Who, despite seeing all the hatred for his nephew and the blatant disrespect towards him, still believes him to be alive and innocent, until Dustin tells him what happened (without telling him the real reason he died). He hands him that damn guitar pick necklace and calls Eddie a hero, he tells Wayne that he wished people had gotten to know him the way he did because they would’ve loved him. I know I did. I still do. But here’s why I REFUSE to believe he’s really dead.

1) Dustin still refers to him in the present tense. Instead of saying “He WAS a hero.” He says “He IS a hero” and that could just be nothing, but I’m holding onto the little crumbs that I can.

2) where’s his body? I know for a damn fact that Dustin never would’ve left him behind like that. He cares way to much about people to just blatantly disrespect him like that in the end. Especially after he begged Eddie to stay with him.

3) why is no one else talking about him? He literally died saving their asses, and the ONLY one who mourns him is Dustin. We know that Mike looked up to him, so why didn’t we see Dustin tell him what happened to their friend? Why didn’t we get to see Mike mourn him to? Why didn’t Steve or Robin or hell, even Nancy, say anything about him. They literally just left him there and acted like he wasn’t the reason they’re still alive (partially)

4) it was Nancy’s plan to kill Vecna. It was her idea to use a LITERAL CHILD and Eddie as bait to lure the demo-bats away when she KNEW what they were capable of doing. She only cared about killing Vecna. I mean, they almost killed Steve, but they didn’t because all of them showed up in the nick of time to save him. She should’ve known better than to have only two people be bait for those bats when she also knew what Vecna was capable of. He SHOWED her what he was gonna do, yet she still decided to kill him. And even that didn’t fucking work because he’s still alive.

5) the duffer brothers said that not all of our questions would be answered in this volume, and that we’d have to wait for season 5 to get those answers. BUT, why have Joseph Quinn petition for more scenes with Charlie in season 5? Why bait us into thinking they wouldn’t pull a Bob on us and kill him off? Why create such a lovable character, WHO WASNT EVEN SUPPOSED TO BE LOVABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE CAUSE THEY WANTED HIM TO BE SCARY AND MEAN, just for us to get attached to him and be disappointed in the end?

6) if his body was never brought back to Hawkins, if he’s still there, if they just left him there, then maybe, just maybe, a hopper will be pulled and he’ll be revealed to still be alive, albeit severely injured and alone in the upside down.

7) if Max can survive being folded in half by Vecna, ACTUALLY DYING, going blind and being in a coma, then surely Eddie could survive a swarm of demo-bats? Right? I mean, I’d rather him be in a coma than dead, because then at least we’d know he’s still alive.

8) Dustin deserved so much more than having to watch as his newest best friend goes off on his own to be a “hero” when his whole character arc was about him NOT being a hero, just to watch him die in his arms as he begged him to stay alive long enough to get help. But it also begs the question. Why didn’t Dustin signal for help? Why didn’t he radio Steve, Robin and Nancy and tell them what happened and that he needed help immediately? Lucas can beg for Erica to get help for Max, but Dustin can’t beg his friends to do the same either? It’s bullshit. Utter and complete bullshit

9) for it only being two days later, it seems awfully suspicious that Dustin is out helping and volunteering at the school when his friend literally just died in his arms less than 48hrs ago. Now, that could just be because he needs to take his mind off of things. He needs a distraction from the grief so he doesn’t break down and blame himself. Because we all know Dustin, he absolutely would blame himself for what happened in the upside down two days ago. But it still seems a little suspicious that he’s there, runs into Wayne and then tells him his nephew IS a hero and not WAS a hero. Again, it could just be his way of coping, trying to pretend that Eddie’s death wasn’t as traumatic and heartbreaking as it was. But we are talking about the same kid who found a baby demogorgon and tried to raise it as a pet in secret. So it would in no way surprise me if he found a way to hide Eddie away somewhere and try to keep it to himself without telling anyone about it. Remember, eventually his friends did find out that Dart was still with Dustin, and they were mad at him for keeping it when he knew it was a monster (but Eddie’s not a demogorgon so they wouldn’t be mad at him, just confused)

10) which leads me to my final theory and point. Vecna survived in the upside down for years. Yes, he has psychic abilities that are extremely powerful, and yes he was infected by the atmosphere over time, but he still survived it, just with a new look. If Vecna can survive that place, why couldn’t Eddie? We already know he’s pretty decent at hiding, and he’s been taking care of himself for a while now because his uncle is rarely home due to working all the time. So why couldn’t he? If Henry/001 can do it, then it stands to reason that, even though Eddie has no psychic powers, he could still survive. He’s been doing it his whole life. Also, why mention his dad? Why give us any inclination of his home life before Wayne if you were just gonna kill him? Either that’s just lazy writing, or there was a point and we’ll see it in season 5 (which I hope to god it wasn’t just a plot hole to make us even more invested in his character because they already knew what would happen to him and that we’d all be upset we got Eddie and his dad crumbs just for nothing to come of it)

So, all in all, I was excited for no god damn reason, the duffer brothers really hyped up so much just for none of it to happen, I have, and always will be anti-Nancy, the entirety of volume two deserved better than what it got, we, as a fandom, deserved so much more than what we got, and I hope to god that season 5 is entirely different from this. We did not deserve to be introduced to such an amazing and complex character again, only for him to be killed, again. I actually cried when jopper kissed, I’ve been waiting for so long for them to be happy, I started sobbing again when Dustin told Wayne about Eddie, only for more sobbing to ensue when El and Hopper reunited (because I was not about to end that damn catastrophe of a volume without an El and Hopper reunion) I also will always refuse to believe Eddie is dead, because I feel like I’ve actually lost someone important to me in real life. Like, I KNOW emotional damage, but that was on a whole other level. I get attached to characters so easily, and Eddie was one of them. Still is. That soft doe-eyed metal head swooped in, stole my heart, made me fall in love, and then ripped it out slowly and painfully with that scene. I absolutely adore Joseph Quinn, and that’s coming from someone who’d never even heard of him before this season came out. He did an absolutely fantastic job with Eddie freaking Munson and he totally deserves better than the shit ending they gave him. This post ended up being really long, but honestly who cares. I’m so done with shows like this having an interesting plot in the first half and then throwing that entire plot away in the second. It’s shit writing, it’s a shit ending, and I refuse to believe that any of it happened.

[wenclairisreal]

THESE ARE MY OPINIONS ON S4 VOL2!!!!!!

SPOILERS AHEAD READ AT YOUR OWN RISK

First we will start with Eleven, I honestly thought her character had so much potential this season and it wasn't completely wasted, I loved the scene where Nancy Robin and Steve killed Vecna, I think it's better in some ways because it ended differently, it wasn't flashing lights with eleven just killing the monster, because it was so much more.

I think Millie put so much extreme effort and emotion into season 4, she did the most amazing job and I really hope we get to see more of her in season 5.

Eddies death. Ok the duffer brothers better have pulled a hopper, Eddie is one of the most fun and loving characters in the show at this time, he is a comfort character to many including me, and killing him of was really unescessary, but not only was it unescessary, it was expected and predictable, duffer brothers always manage a way to kill off a character that everyone loves, but always keep the characters that everyone hates. And one last thing, something that made me so mad was the fact that we didn't get anybody else's reaction to his death, he died and Dustin would have left I presume. But we never got any of the characters to mourn his death, so that's really disappointing because It seemed as if nobody cared except for Dustin and Eddies uncle.

Rest in piece Edward Munson 🕊🎸

Now for Stancy, I can only say one thing.

No.

Ok, I'm sure alot of people say this but we actually need to give Max a break, the poor kid isn't even 18 yet and has had to put up with being verbally and physically abused by Billy, then had to watch Billy get killed right in front of her, she had her stepfather leave which seemed to not bother her, but more bothered her mother which resulted in Max mostly being alone with just a few friends. And if Max is actually dead then so help me I will march up to the duffer brothers front doorstep and smash they're door down with an axe just to make them bring her back. And another thing, she got possessed multiple times and was floating around and shit twice, had a vision of Lucas turning against her, then floated the 2nd time whilst 3-4 of her bones snapped, both of her arms and one of her legs, and maybe more than we don't know of. Then now she's probably going to end up blind and have no memories, or dead.

Robin and Vickie.

I'm sorry this shit gotta be talked about, I personally think that Robin maybe deserves better than Vickie? But don't get me wrong, I think Vickie is an amazing character and I would love to see her and Robin have some kind of connection, but just hear me out, either Robin built confidence or lost feelings because in the ending scene when they were in the shelter, it was Vickie who was rambling, not Robin. Which means Robin wasn't nervous around her which can lead to her probably not having many feelings for Vickie as time had passed, and after Robin saw Vickie at warzone with her "boyfriend" she was talking to Steve and saying how it was probably time she got over it anyway.

And Vickie, I'm sorry babes but is Robin really just "someone from band"? Is she not more? Is she not your friend? And if you ain't gonna treat her right then I will 💀.

Nancy.

I don't have much to say but I personally liked Nancy's storyline in volume 2, it seemed similar to most, yk Nancy and her guns and her being the powerful slaying woman she is, I just wish we got more of her in vol.2 along with Robin as well. Apart from that I thought Nancy was hella badass and ate up every scene she was in. And how come nobody is talking about the fact that she was the one who killed vecna? Like he was the main villain of the whole show, he was only introduced in s4 but had really been there since s1, and "Nancy the priss wheeler" killed him without hesitation, and we support her for that.

Ronance.

Duffers, they had so much potential. SO MUCH, THEY EVEN HELD HANDS, still disappointed we didn't even get a hug or anything out of them instead we just got them making they're merry way out of the season not even together but more apart. I was screaming with joy by the scene we got to when Robin knelt down so Nancy could get up. And then they gave us stancy like 4 seconds later 🙄.

Like ur not helping the situation.

Will and his coming out.

I can't even say anything because HE DIDNT EVEN HAVE A COMING OUT, do you guys realise we waited around 6-7 years for will to come out and he didn't even mention the words himself. I atleast expected him to have a coming out scene to Jonathan or maybe Joyce when she came back, but nothing. Duffers, you have failed the gays once again.

Steve, don't get me wrong I love his character but.. I think there was too much wasted potential in this season for him to be a really good character, like what they should have done is sent Nancy and Robin to kill Vecna, and Steve and Eddie to play the guitar with the demo-bat thing, then sent Dustin with Max, Lucas, and Erica, I feel like him and Erica would have worked really well together. Anyway I still minorly enjoyed his screen time.

Stancy, again.

Ok so yes, I'm bringing them up again.

I think that bringing stancy back would ruin everything that Nancy and Steve have fought for.

Including the fact it would ruin both of the characters and they're development that they've both made over the 3-4 seasons. And overall I just don't like the ship. Like why would they ruin a perfectly fine jancy for Steve and Nancy. Would probably destroy me tbh.

Unpopular opinion, I don't really think Jason should have died. Yes I hated him but imagine you were in his situation, his girlfriend died out of nowhere and the last person she was with was Eddie. I personally would have wanted to get revenge, although I take that back for his last few scenes when he was alive. But if they can do character development with Steve they could have done it with Jason. And instead of killing Eddie off I think they all would have become pretty good friends. Go ahead and hate on me for that tho.

I think that's about it. Might make a part two idk

[discoscoob]

lol probably totally unpopular opinion, but I feel like so many mlm ships of the ST fandom don't really work. Steve and Eddie are cute and all, but like... Steve is so clearly in love with Nancy and he's never been coded as anything but straight. Sure, bisexuality exists, but even with Robin as possible starter for him to think about his own sexuality, he doesn't seem to change in that regard. Same goes for Eddie tbh, though he had less screen time and might be anything but straight, yet he certainly holds an interest for girls. Will and Mike are like... I don't get why people want it to happen so desperately. Will deserves so much more than a boy with internalized homophobia, but maybe that's just me. And sure, Harringrove is a somewhat funny crack ship, but it doesn't make a lot of sense either. Not saying that's a good thing, because it shows that the Duffers have a lot to catch up on when it comes to representing differing sexualities and relationships, but it's so... idk. St*ddie is literally just so weird to me and feels yet again like a wet dream for wokeness warriors who want to raise themselves morally, nothing else. The ship completely disregards all of Steve's and Eddie's characteristics...

I tried to answer this before but my tumblr glitched and erased my answer and it was a pretty lengthily one *i cry*

I don’t know if I can be bothered to write it out again but basically my point was that, I find it difficult to hold an interest in ships where one or both parties show a lack of interest in the other.

For example before the stranger things season came out I was already excited to see ronance’s dynamic so at first I was disappointed when Nancy was kind of rude to Robin and I was going to completely lose interest in the ship but Nancy eventually warmed to Robin and they declared each other friends.

We didn’t get any sort of scene like that between Eddie and Steve. I could imagine Nancy and Robin hanging out by themselves after the whole upside down thing but Steve and Eddie? If Eddie survived of course, I can’t see it. I can imagine them dropping Dustin off between each other like divorced parents or Dustin dragging them to see a movie together with him or Dustin taking Eddie to family video but take out Dustin and I got nothing 😭

[lovipop2049]

yeah i don't get that either.

yeah that can be confusing. sonathan is better than jamantha but it's still confusing.

exactly what I'm saying. eddie and argyle have only been in the show for a season but they were at least fleshed out enough and we know them. i mean argyle it's kinda iffy because it's easier to infer eddie's background-he's talked about it-but argyle we don't know anything about his family, his life, who he lives with, where he lives, hobbies, ect. meanwhile eddie we know his personality and where he lives and we sort of have a window on his family life-- i mean most characters, even steve and dustin, don't have much info on their families, but I mean I'd expect a mention about Argyle's family. I'm hoping we'd get more info on him. All we know is that he smokes weed, he's jonathan's only friend and jonathan is his, he does woodshop, and works at a pizza place. but it's way more information than samantha. no exactly. I love jancy and i wanted them to get together, but it just feels like hes her shadow. it honestly feels like, for both of them, but mostly jonathan, relationships are kind of ruining their whole character. like i'd even be mad if they made jonathan's character surrounded around his relationship with argyle. yes i'd love if that became canon (even though the two canon-hinted lgbtq ships are taking the duffers forever to actually make canon so it's most likely never a possibility) but it would suck if jonathan's character arc was stunted yet again. I wish characters like steve, and nancy weren't based on romance at all, and jonathan having some romance just to show that someone cares about him and loves him, but not to overpower the entire story. I've talked to many people and people say he's just depressed because he misses nancy or he's sad because he misses nancy or he's stressed because of nancy, nancy nancy nancy it's like... he's his own person. Not every thought is about nancy. he's gone through a lot. yes a majority of s4 is his thoughts about nancy but i'm sure he's just depressed for a wide range of reasons. Yes I agree he's not useless abseloutely. I hate when people say that. But he'd have so much more potential if the duffers just dropped the whole romance thing with him or fixed it so nancy and his relationship werent the main thing in his character.

Okay so i literally looked all over tiktok and I can't find it. Idk wtf happened to it lol.

Yeah exactly. tbh... i don't remember if i mentioned this in my original reply or not, but argyle helped more than eddie did. And yeah he helped jonathan a lot. I don't understand why people say he's ugly either he's most definitely not. Yeah dude literally I was rewatching st with my aunt and like i was sitting there like wheres all the cali crew scenes?? cuz they're so spread out and far apart. most of it is just steve. YES exactly. They see jargyle as a joke and then Steddie as a canonical gay ship and they act like it's revolutionary gay shit?? like... hello?? theres way better ships and literal almost canon gay ships but lets ignore those and say steddie is the best and bash others... right. Because let me remember. Eddie gave steve his jacket because he had no shirt, he literally TOLD HIM to go after nancy when he didn't need to at all, and he said "big boy" and as you said, clearly it was a joke. Now I'm fine with the idea of Eddie having a crush on Steve, I mean I don't really like any steddie content but that's fine with me ig. but I literally cannot see Steve liking Eddie back. He was annoyed by him throughout the entire season, he didn't like him at first, and yeah. He didn't even say anything when eddie called him big boy he just gave him a dirty look. So i'm not seeing why steddies need to bash us bc "why cant we just let them be friends!?!?!?!" and then ship two characters that is basically canon stonathan, which is a ship they also hate, and their relationship ideas for them are purely fanon when jargyle and other ships have more canon interactions.

Yes. Tommy is completely way better than Steve. Steve wasn't as bad at the very beginning but later on he became wayyyyy worse. And Tommy just stayed the same. he just shittalked him, which isn't okay, but he's not an evil villian compared to Steve. Steve was worse. And yes tommy was way better to carol than steve was to nancy. because the way steve treated nancy..messed up.

yeah i agree steve and nancy are wishy washy. im still kinda pissed at nancy about the s3 argument thing, mainly because i've lived in an extremely poor household and it's just. Its not fun. And I know they've made up and they both did wrong but... idk I still empathize with jonathan on that. I would've been LIVID. And yeah i dont think steve cares at all, and then at some points he does. Argyle wouldn't do any of that though so yes exactly.

Yes i agree

no you're fine, i mean yes i was worried cuz i saw you like some replies and didn't respond and i got scared i was like annoying you or something but no that's totally fine i understand. I take a while too i got school and stuff

@lovipop2049 So this is my incoherent, rambling opinion of the Jonathan Ships lol and I decided not to tag the ships because I really hope no one is going to be mad about my opinion. If they do find me please hide me. 🫢 I do love or enjoy all the Jonathan ships so far but I just prefer some dynamics over the others.

I'm so glad you said that! Jargyle is my favorite too. Right exactly they are so perfect and Argyle is so sweet to him and caring and kind its just nice to see Jonathan being treated right for once and be shown so much love and praise and Argyle just babying him and taking care of his kids and showing him nothing but love and support UGGH! It's so adorable. It's the same reason why I love Samantha x Jonathan and Eddithan so much too. But Jargyle is easily my fav.

AHH I figured it out Samantha x Jonathan is SONATHAN. How did I forget that when its spelled so much like Stonathan?

So yeah Sonathan, Eddithan, and Jargyle are my top tier ships. As much as I enjoy Jommy/Stoncy/Stonathan ext, I still favor Jargyle and them.

And seeing someone take care of Jonathan for once instead of him having to take care of them is amazing. He deserves all that love and care and needs it. I can't wait to see Vecna try and come after Jonathan in S5 and Argyle comes in like a handsome prince and saves Jonathan! It better happen. But I guess it doesnt matter cause its already been happening in my head.

Eddithan is my other favorite for the same reason. But Jargyle is still superior imo because its canon I don't have to make up how sweet it is in my imagination-Jargyle was on the show itself while Eddie and Jonathan didn't interact. Not that I'm against non canon ships ofc but I'm sure you know what I mean. Its easier to love a ship where the two are already close and connected to begin with and you don't have to do all the heavy lifting yourself to think of how their relationship is.

I think I got foreverautumn converted finally and supporting Jargyle more than Stonathan. I love Stonathan and that don't get me wrong, but Jargyle is superior and I'm tired of Argyle being overlooked because of Steve supposedly being prettier and better than Argyle and how hes a fan fav.... it makes me mad. Like I'm sorry but thats bs. Argyle deserves Jonathan a lot more than Steve ever has. Argyle has done so much for Jonathan, got him to trust and open up, and Argyle's entire storyline has been about how he supports Jonathan and helps him through everything and makes him happy. I'm tired of people saying Argyle is dumb too when S4 clearly showed how smart he was if it wasn't for him they wouldn't have saved El in the first place and it was his whole idea to go to Surfer Boy so El could piggyback and rescue Max. As much as I love Steve and Stonathan, Jargyle is the superior ship.

I really enjoy Jommy too but I want to see more of us all getting away from it just being the second coming of Stonathan. Because Tommy and Steve may be similar, but Tommy isn't Steve and I'd like to see to see how Tommy treats Jonathan differently and how his relationship with Jonathan goes instead of him just being Steve 2.0. Especially since Tommy treats his S.O. better.

Yeah I want to be clear-No hate to Byergrove or the Byergrove shippers at all. I see the appeal of Byergrove and I love foreverautumn's headcanon of it where Steve and Billy are fighting over Jonathan and how much depth and character development went into that. Billy is so hate-able in that especially because hes trying to break up Steve and Jonathan just so he can have Jonathan, but hes also loveable in that because of how much appreciation he shows to Jonathan and how he keeps bettering himself for Jonathan. I found myself cheering on Billy momentarily because its sweet how he thought Jonathan was worth fighting for and how Billy changed for the better and became a good big brother to Max once Jonathan got ahold of him. There are times I love Byergrove just because its always a really compelling story, but at the same time I wouldn't call myself a Byergrove shipper.

I love Billy I really do I think hes a really interesting and complex character and he really adds to the plot of the headcanons and stories, but I always favored the ships like Jargyle and Eddithan where its someone taking care of Jonathan and showing him love and support instead of the ships where its Jonathan saving them in more ways than one and fixing their lives and helping them and taking care of them and helping them to grow up [like Stonathan/Stoncy/Byergrove/Jommy]. Not that I don't like those stories, I love those stories and those ships and see the appeal cause it shows how special and heroic Jonathan is and puts him in the spotlight and shows off what makes him such an amazing person, but I prefer the ships where the SO takes care of Jonathan instead.

Jonathan doesn't need even more people to baby and take care of he needs to be taken care of and showed a lot of love and support. I guess I favor the 'fluffy' type of relationships too much. Don't get me wrong I love the angst and complexity of ships like Stonathan and that, but I just favor Jargyle and Eddithan because its Jonathan being taken care of and saved and shown so much love. I know I'm rambling and I hope this was coherent.

I was in a rush so I don't know how coherent this was, but hopefully you get what I'm trying to say I love Stonathan/Stoncy and that so much, but Jargyle and Eddithan will always be superior because Jonathan takes care of Eddie and Argyle, but they take care of him even more and help him through his trauma and show him so much love and support and give Jonathan everything he could ever need or want emotionally. All Eddithan and Jargyle is is some big love fest where they just adore Jonathan and praise him and help him and remind him constantly how special he is. Even if Vecna does still brings the drama and angst into their relationship anyway.....

[roanofarcc]

Yes scenes between Lucas and Steve would be amazing!!! Especially since they didn’t do what I was hoping they would do between them which was have a conversation about the night that billy targeted Lucas. And have a talk or show them playing basketball together. Same I want steve and Dustin to go back to the season 2 dynamic like where are their emotional scenes together? Like I get it they’re now more siblings and siblings tease each other but also these characters are different from real life dynamics. So it would be so amazing to see that on screen that everyone’s friendship in the group is different from other people’s friendship in the town. Like they’re all weirdos (affectionate) so why not show the actual townspeople being really weirded out by them? Why not show them questioning their friendship and being weirded out when they say things at the exact same time of know that their friend needs something before that friend says anything? This season dustin just says that no one was nice to them but we don’t get the why. We don’t see it at all. Meanwhile season 1 was very explicit in their bullying and it showed you why they were being heavily bullied. And yes seeing Dustin and Lucas bonding and healing together would be amazing. Especially since they’re considered besties and part of the original Party. Yeah it’s so weird how none of their peers talked about all the weird circumstances that they’ve been involved in. And you’re right that they have a complicated relationship with Hawkins and that the show could’ve gone into this more. Especially them like you said going to high school. Which also ngl while I love the concept and what they did somewhat with this plot line. I’m still confused as to why everyone was gunning for eddie as the scapegoat. I get it the while he’s the leader of DnD and they make him the outsider freak. Chrissy died in his house so I do get it. But also the reporters and all that other stuff make it a point to say how their town has been filled with tragedies. Bring up Barb and I think they brought up Bob. And of course the mall fire. Which like Eddie wasn’t there for at all and the town would know this so they would mainly be pointing the blame on Lucas and Mike and Dustin. And although Will’s disappearance started everything (even to the town since everyone was looking for Will and they had a funeral), it was never mentioned by the townspeople this season. Which makes me feel like something’s suspicious there but also the duffer bros forgot Will’s birthday even tho it’s right there on screen lol. Honestly I just feel that they should have had more people talking about the kids and then teens and hopper and Joyce. Especially hopper. He was the fucking chief of Hawkins and yet we got no mention of him from the fucking town??? No one showed any grieve over that? It’s just bizarre that they didn’t have the town say anything about hopper being dead.

they really butchered steve and dustin's relationship this season, it just felt...weird? dustin was too snappy and there really weren't any moments that felt genuine and sweet between the two. we know they care an awful lot about each other, but we didn't get to explore that dynamic more this season which sucked :/ I wished we would've seen more concern or emotion, something! anything! they pushed this pairing and then kind of let it all go to shove eddie in steve's older brother role. obviously, there are differences between steve and eddie and their relationship with dustin, but it would've been fun to see steve and dustin's history of like almost dying together a couple time shine a little more, you know?

yeah, I wish they would've incorporated the whole conspiracy and hysteria aspect more into this season too. it would have been cool to see the residents a little more involved, but I have hope that in s5, since the whole season will be set (from what's been said) completely in hawkins, they'll do just that. which I'm really excited about. not only does that leave open the door of possibility for the parents and clueless but suspicious hawkins residents to play a big part, but that also means that ALL the main characters will be together! they'll still probably break them up into groups throughout the season, but there's no way there won't a battle planning / final battle scene with everyone (like in s2). the potential for a steve & hopper team up, the original party fighting together, more nancy and robin, nancy and steve and jonathan trio back in action! there are so many and I hope they explore new dynamics within the main characters

[itsonlystrange]

It’s late and I feel like talking about ST characters trauma

I feel like most people only focus on Will’s or El’s (which both are very valid ! ) but I think we both need to remember that:

1: characters exist outside of their trauma. If you believe that all a single character is is their trauma, and that they deserve no further character depth, you’re psycho

And 2: all characters in this fking show are traumatized. All. Of. Them. At this rate, I think Lucas is the most unscathed mentally, yet he ALSO has so much trauma! Which nobody ever talks about!

I love Will and El, however I feel like other characters (especially the females) deserve more expansion on the sh!t they’ve been through.

I WANT TO ALSO SAY:

This isn’t me narrowing down characters with the “most trauma” as I simply cannot put every character in this post and go on a full analysis rn as its 4:00 am. And also, trauma isn’t a competition. I am sick of people saying “so and so is more traumatized than so and so.” Or “so and so is the most/less traumatized.”

All trauma is valid.

People will trauma of any kind know that it doesn’t matter if someone lost 2 legs and half their brain, but you only broke your foot. That’s still gonna be painful! Mentally and physically! It isn’t a race. I don’t want to see ANY of that anymore. It’s disgusting and undermining other characters traumas to benefit others. All characters trauma is V A L I D. It all is! There is no “well so and so is the most traumatized so the others don’t get to complain.” NO! NO NO NO! That’s not how it works! This isn’t a game!! And don’t ever feel bad about not having gone through as much as your friend, your trauma is yours and all experiences are valid.

ALSO REMINDER: characters exist outside of their trauma and ab*se and I know that! This isn’t me belittling or shrinking down people to only a component to their trauma. It’s me pointing out their trauma rather than having their trauma he their whole character. I just think we need more people to talk about other ST characters, especially right now.

Now, without further a do:

MAX:

Max’s dad left fairly early on from what we’ve seen, however she still had some contact with him for at least a few more years as she seems to remember him and miss him quite a lot. We don’t know much about Mr. Mayfield, but we do know Max mises him a great deal. We also know that she has most likely witnessed a lot of physical and verbal ab*se from her stepfather. It’s never stated if Max is a handle to this ab*se either, but she’s definitely witnessed it. Which is why I believe she pushes people away, she’s afraid to get latched on. Because If she does she’ll start to care, and then they’ll just leave like almost everyone else, like her old friends and her father. She puts up walls and feign strength and a somewhat high ego to keep up the hallucination that she doesn’t care about what others think, when she really does. Not to mention she literally witnessed Billy die right before her eyes. Do you know how traumatizing that is? She’s also seen multiple others die aswell, making it worse. Now with Billy gone, Max will most likely be the center of Neil’s ab*se, and Will distance herself from everyone, and will probably spiral into a severe depression. She acts all tough on the outside when in reality she just wants to be loved and accepted, by her friends and family. She gets critiqued quite a lot, especially for being a girl, and you can tell she definitely has gotten the short end of the stick most her life.

KALI:

Do I even need to explain this one? She was literally ABDUCTED AS A CHILD, then adopted, then her adoptive family DITCHED HER, she was forced to see others get hurt or to hurt others for experiments, she’s seen multiple people d!e, and she feels like the only way for life to get better is by k!lling people. Although she’ll never show it, she feels so alone in the world. With no real family, and only her friends, she has nobody to turn to. Kali was so hated upon, which in a way, I understand. I don’t entirely agree with her morally but I do see where her intentions lay and I don’t think she’s as bad as a person as everyone says she is. She’s just a broken girl that deserves to be loved. And she’s so distant from love because she’s afraid of getting hurt. But she deserves happiness, and I wish the Duffers would allow her that happiness, too.

JOYCE:

Nobody EVER talks about Joyce’s trauma as much as they talk about Will’s or El’s (which I’m not invalidating either of theirs I’m just pointing out Joyce’s)

Joyce is said to deal with frequent panic attacks and anxiety. She was verbally and probably physically ab*see by her husband leaving her with severe trust issues. For awhile the whole town thought she was crazy, and we’ve seen her be treated like an outcast. She doesn’t fit in. Back in the 80’s, single moms were looke down upon. Will is constantly referred to as “Lonnie’s Boy”, because that’s what people see him as, even when Lonnie ditched Will and hurt him more than Joyce ever could. Joyce works/worked multiple jobs, and had to keep up her family of two boys. It got so bad even Jonathan had to get one or two jobs just to keep a roof over their heads.

Joyce really deserves happiness. She’s always alert now and her anxiety has only gotten worse. She’s constantly looking for things that aren’t there and although she may have been right about the magnets, it’s worrying that she saw a pattern there, anyways. Her life has given her the short end of the stick multiple times. She’s seen multiple people d!e, her son get possessed, her son get exorcised and be in so much pain, the love of her life (Bob) die right in front of her, the other love of her life (Hopper) die right infront of her, she’s been losing herself since season one, and knowing it’ll only get worse in season 4 scares me so much. She deserves to settle down and find a happy family. She deserves love and support and therapy. And she deserves support system that will listen to her and be there for her. Joyce is so strong in so many ways, she has always percerviered through the thick and thin, and life has ever gone in her direction yet she stays there, for her boys, and doesn’t give up. She is so kind and loyal, she took El under her wing, she was there countless nights when Lonnie was screaming, protecting Will. She was there, staying up all night to make sure Will went to bed safely. She worked two jobs and has tried to get enough money for Jonathan to go to college, and yet life has never given her anything back. This woman has been through hell, she deserves to be loved with no consequences. She deserves to be happy without it backfiring. Joyce is such a dimensional character. She’s had her ups and downs, and she’s somehow always found ways to keep on pushing forward past where most people would break. THATS Queen shit

NANCY:

Now, it looks like Nancy had a fairly peaceful upbringing. While I don’t think she has as much trauma as Mike, I feel like a lot of people over look her and her existence and immediately write her off as “selfish” or a “brat”. And while I do agree that she does have some selfish or self centered moments, she’s always grown from those. Character development, people!

Nancy, the oldest of 3, definitely got the most love from her mother. I don’t think her home life has ever been bad. Although Karen and Ted aren’t the perfect happy couple, they don’t seem to fight much, and they seem pretty peaceful. So I don’t think Nancy’s home life is bad necessarily, and from the outside it could almost be described as “perfect”.

However, there is so much beneath that.

Nancy was stuck in a loveless relationship for about a year. She did the best she could at school to fit in or “be popular”. She wanted to stay with Steve because that seemed like the most logical option. He was popular, rich, he’d be the perfect guy to settle down with. But her heart was telling her to go else where. Jonathan was poor, unpopular, and isn’t necessarily the perfect guy to settle down with financially. Her parents put pressure on her to be the perfect housewife (more so her dad, I don’t think karen did as much.) so when Nancy falls for someone the exact opposite of what she should be going for, she’s in denial. She’s torn between the two. She had a perfect life ahead of her. Great friends, popularity, a loving boyfriend, but she didn’t want that. She didn’t want to settle down and living a boring life just like her parents.

Besides all that, she’s been pulled into an alternate dimension, she’s seen multiple people d!e, she’s nearly been k!led MULTIPLE times. She’s had to k!ll people for her own safety. She’s had to watch her boyfriends brother get excorcised, and also stab her boyfriends brother with a flaming hot rod. She’s had to live with the guilt of Barbara, her best friend, dying while she was sleeping with Steve. She feels so much guilt, survivors guilt, for not doing anything that night. She’s had to live with the fact that her bestfriend since she was little passed on right outside where Nancy was, and Nancy could’ve done something about it, which is the worse part. She’s been harassed by misogynistic coworkers for the fact that she’s a female, lowering her self esteem. And it seems that whenever she does something good in the world it always backfires. She feels like an outcast even though she has so many “friends”, or so it seems. She has the perfect house at the end of a culdesac. What can she possibly be sad over? Her life seems seamless. Yet there is a lot buried under there. She seems like she’s in denial over a lot of things, and constantly in a stage of grief. Nancy deserves to not feel ridiculed. She deserves to be a winner, and to prove those misogynistic @ssholes wrong. She shouldn’t have to fit this cookie cutter ideal. She’s a badass. She’s experienced way more than I feel like most people realize, and has been put in the center of absolute insanity yet still was able to come out of it intact. She deserves to live the life she wants to live, without Survivors Guilt, without the feeling of being an outcast, without low self esteem. Nancy is such a strong young woman in more ways than one, and I feel like so many people hate on her solely because she isn’t doing what most of these girl next door characters usually do. She subverted her own trope. And most people are angry that she isn’t this cookie cutter girl the way she’s “supposed to be”. She gets overlooked, and most people prefer the men of the cast, over her. And yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion, however I’ve seen people hate on Nancy for stupid misogynistic things, which isn’t a valid reason to dislike a character. And most people assume she’s just a spoiled, self obsorbed, ditzie girl, but she really is just someone trapped inside a box trying to get out. Nancy is a baddie. She’s always defended her friends. She’s always defended her brother, and has fought interdimensonal demons before. SHE IS SUCH A BADASS! She learned how to use a gun at the age of 16, despite most woman in the 80’s not even slowing themselves to touch a gun. She grew independent and learned to work for herself and not for others. She cracked a major story at the Hawkins Post, and even when people didn’t believe her, she still pursued it, and was right! She doesn’t give up, and people should be looking up to her and aspiring to be her. She literally beat up someone with a fire hydrant while playing a game of Marco Polo. Why does nobody talk about that! She will kick your ass into the next dimension. THATS Queen shit.

That’s all for now. I will touch back up on this later with some more characters traumas (probably Mike’s, Dustin’s, Lucas’s, and more.) but this is it for now. I really think we should pay more attention to the woman in the ST cast and their characters. A lot of focus is usually on the boys, which is understandable, but I wanted to point out how strong all these girls are and how much I admire them. I love Will and el as well, but I’ve already made several posts talking about them and how badass they are, lol. I wanted to shine light on more people that usually don’t take the spotlight very often. I’ll be back with more, later! As I said above, I’ll totally touch on some more people’s trauma as well, as there’s a lot beneath the surface I feel like most people don’t pay attention to.

SORRY FOR SUPER LONG POST

PS: I began writing that at 4:44am, then fell asleep. It’s 11:45 am now.

[kaypeace21]

hey, I've noticed this for quite sometimes and idk why nobody is talking about it but as we know in ST the music is really important and is a part of the story telling (in my opinion). So what I noticed is that in the soundtrack "the first i love you" (from ST3) is really similar to "the first LIE" (from ST2). what do you think about that and did you notice anything else from the soundtrack?

Oh my god! You’re a genius- they really sound almost IDENTICAL! It was 100% deliberate.I mentioned in the past, during his ‘love confession to El’ at the grocery store, Mike apologizes for everything BUT LYING (the thing that broke them up in the first place).  Aka because the love confession itself, is yet another lie Mike is telling. So of course he can’t apologize/promise to stop lying to her- because then he’d have to acknowledge he’s not romantically in love with her. He never says “I love you” to her face because subconsciously he knows he’d be lying to her. When he does say “I love her” it’s to PROOVE he loves her (to everyone else) and he seemed nervous and scared when he thought she overheard. Because, it’s one thing to lie to others to prove he’s straight vs lying to El’s face. Which is why he says *blank/it* instead of “love” . He says “It makes you crazy…blank makes you crazy. Y’know like the word?” Hoping she would just get it. So he could have wiggle room- in the fact he didn’t technically lie. And then he either forgot or just LIED AGAIN- and pretended he didn’t confess to her at the end of s3. And never said “ I love you’ back! He even tries to take the words back and  says about the prior love confession “ Oh! Oh, yeah that.Man, that was so long ago. Um…”  and starts to scratch his head and says everything he said at the cabin was “in the heat of the moment stuff and we were arguing…”. Similar to the love confession at the grocery store, he tries to tell her in a round-about way that he doesn’t actually love her- hoping she’ll get it. But once again she misunderstands and assumes he’s just being shy.

When El says “I love you too” ( Mike never responds back) . And during this scene,  “ the first I love you” plays - which sounds almost exactly like “the first lie”. This, was yet another narrative hint to the audience Mike doesn’t love her- and that he’s LYING!

In contrast to this, the “first lie” plays in s2 when Jancy finally gets together. The song/kiss happens as they lie about how they just see each other as “ just friends” (but then begin to kiss). While mileven is the opposite- saying they “love each other”( and then proceed to kiss) . Jancy lied saying it wasn’t romantic. while Mileven lied saying they ‘were in love’ (before their eventual kiss-scenes). Which is why the songs were so similar.

Listen to the songs here

“The first lie”  (x)

“The first I love you” (x)

The only difference is that the “first I love you” has a slight buildup- before it becomes identical to the “first lie”- and the “first I love you” is slightly slower.

The byler-evidence is just piling up (more and more) with each passing day! XD

They even play “the first I love you” (again) when Robin comes-out as gay to Steve . And Steve accepts this (and they become closer as friends in the process). However, El does not do this (during “the first I love you”). When Steve accepts Robin’s sexuality- they start happily singing together. But when Mike tries to sing (in a different scene),  El covers Mike’s mouth and tells him to stop singing (multiple times). And specifically says that she doesn’t like it. As a purposefully juxtaposition to the later Robin/Steve scene. 

Music choices by the Duffers have always been 100% deliberate - I did a whole analysis about the songs chosen in s3- and how they tie into the narrative here. If you want to see more evidence.

[morkhan]

Will Byers is Gay: The Evidence So Far

With the release of Stranger Things 3, there has been a lot of discussion kicked up about the character of Will Byers and his sexuality (or lack thereof). I've seen a lot of takes about what "it's not my fault you don't like girls" was intended to mean, many of which seem to take it in isolation, so I wanted to make a post putting it into what I think is its proper context; not an isolated incident, but the latest carriage in veritable train of queer themed language and imagery that has followed Will Byers since episode one of season one, and before that. You ready? Alright, let's go.

Season Zero: the Montauk Files

Before Stranger Things became Stranger Things, it was called Montauk. Like many would-be show makers, the Duffer Bros put together a "show bible" describing the premise, setting, tone, and characters of the show they intended to make. Like many shows, a lot of these ideas changed or were lost on their way to the screen, but it's always worth looking into their original concepts. Here is their description of Will Byers in the Montauk show bible:

Obviously, the major whammy there is in the first line "sexual identity issues." But there are some other interesting notes, like his "colorful clothes" that you might want to keep a lookout for on your next rewatch. Now, onto...

Season 1

The thing to pay attention to regarding Will in season 1 is in the language used to refer to him when he is not present (which he isn't for most of the season).

Episode 1: the subject of bullying comes up right away in the conversation between Joyce and Hopper. "The kids, they're mean. They laugh at him, laugh at his clothes, call him names." "What's wrong with his clothes?" "I don't know!" This harkens back to the Montauk show bible, but it's arguable, since it's never made clear what about his clothes draws ire.

She also mentions that he is "sensitive," "not like most," and that his dad said he was "queer" and called him a "fag." Hopper asks "is he?" to which she replies "He's missing is what he is!"

Episode 3: Troy says he's not missing, he's dead. "Probably killed by some other queer."

Episode 4: Troy, again "Will's in fairyland, flying around with all the other little fairies, all happy and gay."

Sensitive, queer, fag, fairy, and gay are all used to describe Will in season 1, but perhaps more notable is the fact that they aren't used to describe anyone else. If the show were truly period accurate, let's be real; the whole party would've been called queers on a pretty regular basis, because "queer" doubled as a generic insult back then. But in season 1, these words are only ever used in relation to Will, with one exception; in episode 6, Steve says to Will's brother, "I used to think you were queer." So it's not even an active accusation in that moment; it's used in the negative.

Hell, Troy walked up to Lucas mockingly proposing to Mike and proclaiming his love for him, and he still didn't call them queers. That language is reserved for Will.

Now granted, most of these are used as insults by characters who don't like Will, but still; as a writer, if you want your audience to remember something, repetition is an excellent way to embed it in their minds. There's a reason for the specificity of language surrounding Will, and a reason that language keeps coming up over and over and over again.

Season 2

Season 2 retires much of the homophobic language used to insult Will, replacing it with "Zombie Boy." The only homophobic language used in season 2 is the word "faggot," used by Billy's father to refer to Billy, who expresses a clear interest in women (and an arguable interest in one particular man, but that's the subject of another post).

Still, there is an arguable bit of queer theming in Will's conversation with Jonathan regarding the benefits of being a "freak" and how normal people never accomplish anything. Jonathan even invokes bisexual icon David Bowie to make Will feel better about his "freakishness."

The clearest piece of queer theming for Will in season 2 comes in episode 8, in this beautiful speech from Joyce to Possessed Will:

"When you turned eight, I gave you that huge box of crayons, do you remember that? It was 120 colors. And all your friends got you Star Wars toys, but all you wanted to do was draw with all your new colors. And you drew this big spaceship, but it wasn't from a movie. It was YOUR spaceship; a RAINBOW Ship, that's what you called it. And you, you must have used every color in the box. I took that with me to Melvald's, and I put it up. I told everyone who came in, 'My son drew this.' And you were so embarrassed, but I was so proud. I was so, so proud."

This is one of the most powerful memories of her son that Joyce has, an image so strong and distinct that she uses it to invoke his true identity against the monster that is slowly subsuming him. She notes very specifically that it's not something he copied, but something that came entirely from Will himself, an image that she felt represented him so perfectly that she took it with her to work and proudly touted it as his to everyone she knew. The Rainbow Ship is Joyce's picture of her son's very heart, and surely I don't need to explain to you how powerful a piece of queer imagery the rainbow is.

Some subtextual stuff; in episode 9, when the girl asks Will to dance, he stammers "I... I don't..." and only goes to dance with her when Mike literally pushes him towards her.

During the final montage, the scene cuts to different characters in time with appropriate lines from the song: "every move you make" cuts to Mike and El (as he is teaching her to dance), "every vow you break" cuts to Nancy dancing with Dustin (as she technically cheated on Steve with Jonathan), "I'll be watching you" cuts to Lucas dancing with Max (as she has playfully called him 'stalker' all season). What line cuts to Will? "Every smile you fake," specifically on the word fake, while Will dances with a girl wearing this expression:

That is not a real smile, that is not a comfortable boy, and that is not an accident; Noah Schnapp is one of the best actors in the entire show, and of the young boys, he is the one the Duffers trust most to do dramatic heavy lifting.

Do you want it to be a little more explicit? Okay, here is that scene in the script:

I mean, that pretty much speaks for itself. It's less explicit in the actual show, but it's still there, you know?

Season 3

And now, the biggest and most explicit thing to date; The Scene. I mean, you could discuss the obvious subtext in the simple fact that Will is the only male main character who has yet to find a girlfriend or express any interest in girls whatsoever, but that pales in comparison to The Scene.

The setup for The Scene is pretty simple; after declaring "a day free of girls" in order to get his friends to run the D&D campaign he's probably spent a significant amount of time creating, his friends have blown him off to continue bemoaning their girl troubles, so Will has decided to leave. Mike, realizing too late that he has genuinely upset his friend, chases after him to try and get him to come back.

A back-and-forth argument ensues, where Will accuses Mike of ruining the party and abandoning his friends in favor of girls, and Mike, in the heat of the moment, responds with "It's not my fault you don't like girls!" After which, everything stops. There is a full second of silence, and a close up on Noah Schnapp's face so you can take in his reaction.

There is a lot to unpack here. Now, acting is up to interpretation to a degree, but to me, that expression conveys two primary emotions; shock, and betrayal. That face says "how could you?" Because here's the thing; regardless of what Mike does or doesn't know about Will's sexuality, Mike knows for a fact that Will has been called a queer all his life by everyone from his school bullies to his own fucking dirtbag father. By invoking even the specter of that, Mike has crossed a fucking line, and he knows it. And we know he knows it, because he immediately backtracks and tries to mitigate the damage. But it's too late. The damage has been done.

I also think there is a tinge of fear in that image. Just a moment of soul raking panic that pretty much every closeted queer person knows intimately. It's very brief. But I think it's there, if you look.

This scene sends Will into an emotional tailspin that culminates in him tearing down the literal last bastion of his childhood in a fit of sorrow and rage. His innocence has been destroyed. He cannot regain what he has lost, and he can never go back to the way things were before. This is the emotional climax of his arc for season three. It's a powerful one-- shame it comes in the third of eight episodes, but that's neither here nor there.

And that's pretty much it for now. Any one of these things taken in isolation could be very easily dismissed, but here's the thing; they aren't isolated incidents. They are part of a clear and consistent pattern, one that goes all the way back to the show's inception, before even one minute of footage was filmed. And this pattern points to one very obvious conclusion; the Duffer Brothers have always intended, and continue to intend, for Will Byers to be gay.

Now, for the obvious question; why haven't they made it explicit yet?

The answer is as unfortunate as it is obvious; I don't know.

It's entirely possible that there is some external force that the Duffers have to answer to that is preventing them from actively pursuing this particular storyline. This happens all the time in Hollywood, and it could be anything from Netflix to Noah Schnapp's parents to Noah Schnapp himself just being uncomfortable with it. Many are the creators who dream Big Gay Dreams only to run into the horrors of our Forced Hetero Reality. If the Duffers ultimately submit to these pressures, I hope you won't be too hard on them. This shit is harder than you think to get to the screen sometimes.

But it's also possible that they just aren't ready for it yet. That they have been saving this for a future storyline, that they just want their characters (and the actors) to get a little older before they pursue this particular storyline explicitly, but they've been busily laying groundwork for it so that anyone paying attention will know it's coming.

I don't know. Only time will tell for sure.

For now, I can tell you this; I see a great deal of evidence that the Duffers still intend for Will to be gay, and precisely zero that they have changed their minds.

I hope that holds true.

[hawkinsschoolcounselor]

Will Byers: The Great Debate

I know I still have some requested analyses to do, but I’m in a rotten mood, and I need to vent.

This whole debate on Will and whether he is gay has me infuriated. Yeah, I know I’m heavily biased due to my identification with the character, but I’m still pissed. The assumption that Will isn’t gay until they explicit state it is solely based on heteronormativity. In pop culture, people are simply assumed straight until proven otherwise. It’s the reason why they were able to hoodwink everyone with Robin in the first place. With just a mention of her saying she was obsessed with Steve in high school, everyone assumed the two of them would be a thing by the end of the season. That was a totally acceptable assumption to make. Thinking Will is gay? No, they need to tell us that.

There are reasons to think Will is gay, and certainly more than the casual fan probably realizes. I will go over them here, not that I need to lecture anyone who actually reads this on the topic.

1) Will is stated as having sexual identity issues in the original character summary.

Let’s just get this one out of the way. Yeah, it’s not known to the average viewer, but it’s still valid. Sure, they could have since deviated from the original plan, and by itself it may mean nothing, but it’s supporting evidence.

2) Will is bullied for being gay.

This is another one that doesn’t mean anything by itself. Will is bullied for being gay by both his father and the local bully. They could have used any number of similar characteristics, but they went with gay. Will is small, sweet, and honest, so there’s possibilities like mama’s boy, sissy, etc that could have gotten a similar point across without bringing in sexuality. It’s not just a passing mention. It comes up when Joyce talks to Hopper, and he even asks if it’s true. Troy is an absolute monster as he twists the knife in Mike’s wound. Troy bullies the other three for cruel, but accurate, reasons. He mocks Lucas’ race, Dustin’s lack of teeth, and Mike’s face (Mike kinda got off easy if you ask me). Now Troy may or may not be correct, but he probably thinks he is. He digs into each character’s deepest insecurities. He exists to tell us this information. If Will’s sexuality is unimportant, then why have Troy bully him the same way Will’s own father did? Troy simply could have made fun of him for being poor.

3) Will is especially close to Mike

This is made clear in every season. Yeah, they’re best friends, but Will and Mike are depicted as special. From the very start, Will can’t bring himself to lie to Mike. Yeah, I know, you can excuse the whole “It was a 7.” thing as just him foreshadowing his ordeal, but why set it up with Lucas telling him it’s ok as long as Mike doesn’t know? Mike is similarly shown as close to Will, with him being the most concerned. Dustin and Lucas are clearly worried too, and upset when the body is found, but Mike is shown taking it the hardest. They’re telling us the two of them share something special. Season 2 doubles down on this  hard. Mike is the only one Will trusts with what’s happening to him. Mike is the only one he is shown remembering other than is mother. Mike is ultimately the one who breaks through to him. 

4) Will is extremely jealous when Mike and El get together.

I don’t know why this one is hard for people to see. Maybe they’re just not looking for it. Yeah, some of it is just some good, subtle acting. Will is upset every single time Mike is shown showing affection for El. It technically starts in the Season 2 script with Will’s eyes being on Mike as they were all dancing. I know I’ve seen a clip of Will glancing over and looking upset, but I don’t remember that from the actual release. Was that a deleted scene? If so, its removal is conspicuous, especially with that released script. The jealousy is still apparent throughout Season 3. The sad looks on Will’s face whenever Mike and El are together, when Mike says he loves her. The anger he shows towards Mike, and only Mike, despite Dustin and Lucas similarly being focused on girls. I know I’ve seen people say he smiles when El dumps Mike. I honestly can’t tell, but he does look away, suggesting he doesn’t want his reaction to be noticed.

5) Mike is able to evoke emotion in Will

For the most part, Will is a quiet kid. He’s soft-spoken and has an innocence about him. He has a little frustration in Season 2, due to people treating him differently (though he leaves Mike out of his accusations), but he’s generally a go with the flow guy. Mike has the power to calm Will, to cheer him up, and make him cry both good and bad tears. Even in Season 3, his D&D annoyance is a slow build. It’s ultimately Mike’s rejection that sets him off. It’s specifically the fact that he feels he’s losing Mike. They were building that frustration alongside the D&D the entire season to that point. Is it really that much of a stretch for D&D to be a metaphor here? He jabs Mike over El when Mike tries to apologize, accusing him of throwing everything away over a “stupid girl.” Now, this “stupid girl” is supposed to be a friend of his, one who has helped save him twice. Will looks around Castle Byers at a D&D book and a drawing of Will the Wise. Both are accompanied by flashbacks beginning with Mike’s voice. He tears up the photo from Halloween, the night of the Crazy Together moment, right down the middle where Mike and Will are depicted. Will ends up destroying Castle Byers, berating himself the entire time, before collapsing in anguish. Yeah, it can be open to interpretation, but it’s not hard to see that Will could be calling himself stupid for thinking he and Mike shared something special now that El is in the picture. I’d like the people who think Will just isn’t ready to grow up to explain to me why that scene felt more like a breakup than a friend fight.

6) Will seems relatively trauma-free

Now, this is actually an issue I have with the show, as Will, along with pretty much the entire cast, should be amazingly traumatized. I bring it up only to counter the idea that Will has lost a portion of his childhood to the Upside Down, and so he’s not ready to grow up. Will has lost about two weeks of his childhood. He showed some issues in Season 2 before getting possessed, but he’s also shown enjoying his childhood as well. Just because we rejoin his life when bad stuff returns to Hawkins it doesn’t mean he had no life in the interim. He didn’t spend every day since getting rescued from the Upside Down in a hospital or deprived of his friends. There’s honestly no reason why Eleven would be more ready for adolescence than Will. If anything, Will should be associating his trauma with D&D and avoiding it like the plague. It should be causing him post-traumatic stress. He should want to get as far away from reminders of what happened as possible. A game with mindflayers and demogorgons isn’t something he should want. He has a reason for wanting D&D, and it’s not that he’s still a kid inside, because he still had other interests before Season 3, like comics, drawing, and the arcade.

7) Will not liking girls doesn’t just mean he doesn’t like them yet

This is the other counter argument I’ve noticed: that Will just hasn’t matured to liking girls yet. While it’s not unbelievable for a boy his age to not start sexually maturing, there’s really no indication of this. He isn’t just uncomfortable dancing with the girl in Season 2, he flat out doesn’t want to do it. He also has no problem with Max joining them for Halloween, stating that Dustin and Lucas were excited about it so he ok’d it. He understands boys liking girls. He shows no real hostility towards Dustin or Lucas for it. When he tells Joyce he’s never going to fall in love, it doesn’t sound like a kid who finds the idea of dating gross. He sounds sad as he says it. When Mike says it’s not his fault Will doesn’t like girls, Will is stunned into silence. Now Mike doesn’t know if Will is gay, and Will may not really know either, but it cuts deep.

In conclusion

By no means is my interpretation definitely correct. I could be absolutely wrong. But why is my interpretation seen as ridiculous? My theory isn’t perfect, but I have evidence. I have rebuttals to alternate interpretations. If we’re not meant to think Will is gay, why does it seem like they keep giving us reasons to? If it’s not important, people from the show could easily just say so. Noah and Finn end up having to awkwardly respond to questions they may not even have the answers to. 

It’d be very strange if the Duffers and their team somehow painted themselves into a corner by accident. It’s possible, sure, but I don’t see how it could keep happening. Finn had said they had other takes of “It’s not my fault you don’t like girls!” including one that added “yet”, but stated that they ultimately went with the one in question. Well, I mean, they chose to go with that one. I don’t know why, but neither do the people saying Will is just immature. We speculate, and if I speculate that they went with that one because that’s the storyline they’re going for and are trying to keep it under wraps, then I should be allowed to do so without being scoffed at. I may be biased because of my bisexuality, but they’re also biased because of their heteronormativity.