#the Conjunction really screwed the elves over

[revoevokukil]

The Trap of Prescience

What else could be explained in the Witcher if we were to interpret the elven Sages' & Ciri's prophetic abilties in the fashion of Dune?

Dune's take on prescience is that once a future is perceived, it is set in stone.

It's basically the QM measurement rule bringing about wave function collapse into a defined state, which means a particle (I'll grandiosely call it "reality" for the sake of fantasy) loses its superposition (potential to be in all potential states) and takes on a defined property; i.e. one actual reality is chosen from among the many possible ones. Alternatively, the wave function might not collapse at all (many worlds interpretation), with all possible worlds continuing to exist as we, upon observation, simply become part of one of the realities while losing track of others.

In the case of the latter, this poses a question whether it is at all possible for a prescient being to continue "course-correcting." (and what about other observers, equally capable of collapsing the wave function? that would mean other prescients for our literary purposes, as we ignore that actually it could be light, air, etc.)

“This is the awe-inspiring universe of magic: There are no atoms, only waves and motions all around. Here, you discard all belief in barriers to understanding. You put aside understanding itself. This universe cannot be seen, cannot be heard, cannot be detected in any way by fixed perceptions. It is the ultimate void where no preordained screens occur upon which forms may be projected. You have only one awareness here — the screen of the magi: Imagination! Here, you learn what it is to be human. You are a creator of order, of beautiful shapes and systems, an organizer of chaos.”

Everything being an ocean of pure energy potential, the reality we think we know sort of "emerges" based on the conditions and our perception of those conditions. Truly the waves of reality remain in constant fluctuation, while we experience the "concrete" reality—that we label and categorize (imagining a shape for it)—as emerging from those more fundamental levels.

Magic, then, is about the perceiving mind creating the ultimate meaning for what can and cannot be over the raw senses. When an Aen Saevherne, for example, is able to perceive the future accurately they are, in effect, creating it.

At the quantum level our universe can be seen as an indeterminate place, predictable in a statistical way only when you employ large enough numbers. Between that universe and a relatively predictable one where the passage of a single planet can be timed to a picosecond, other forces come into play. For the in-between universe where we find our daily lives, that which you believe is a dominant force. Your beliefs order the unfolding of daily events. If enough of us believe, a new thing can be made to exist. Belief structure creates a filter through which chaos is sifted into order. - Analysis of the Tyrant, the Taraza File: GB Archives Heretics of Dune

Knowledge, however, has no uses without purpose, but purpose - arising out of wishing, desiring, and hope - builds the enclosing walls and diverts one away from infinity into a particular narrow possibility. That is the trap of prescience - to (seek to) know the future absolutely is to be trapped into that future absolutely.

To put a stop to pretending like QM is actually my thing, back to literature. I pondered the orb on this matter in April. And I have addenums to make! (for example, it's not correct to equate the Aen Saevherne to Laplace's Demons; we're beyond classical mechanics)

First, as noted, if prescient beings are more or less blind to the movements of other figures with foresight, it should make conspiring around Ciri possible for someone like Eredin. Secondly, characters who can predict the future might not necessarily wish to look for certain things precisely should they suspect they might not like the answer. For example, contemplating one's own demise (as Auberon may have done).

'"Every judgement teeters on the brink of error," Leto explained. "To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty. - Leto II Children of Dune

There are ways then, in which to use prescience correctly, and ways in which to use it with terrible ends.

The future that you see is the future that you will act upon (even by choosing not to act upon it). In fact, you can say that you have already acted upon it. A thing seen is a thing that has been. And, by being a character of sufficient Influence, positioning, and time, who envisions this, you will be locking everyone else into your future. So if the future includes something you would rather not see come about, you will be locked into a cascade of decisions you have to make in order to steer it - you might alter things by killing someone, or yourself, but things could proceed toward that destiny anyway and with much larger costs. You become trapped, you cannot step off course anymore.

Basically, the art of foresight then, seems to consist in knowing or sensing how - when looking ahead - to maintain degrees of freedom that would allow for creativity in the act of creating the future. An unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty, so future can happen itself in a desirable manner.

"...no one aside from them is capable of understanding their writings. Elven manuscripts, in most cases, mean tortuous symbolism, acrostics, occasionally even codes. The Elder Speech is always, to put it mildly, ambiguous and, when written down, may have as many as ten meanings." - Codringher The Time of Contempt

Can you imagine Ithlinne slapping her colleagues in the world of the Aen Seidhe with her augury, signalling that all the landscaping and fey architectural drip must again be packed up in a bit, because this world too will go to the dogs? A very frustrating way to start the day, to be sure. Except then it becomes difficult to move between realities at will. Bffr. I'd wager a portion of Aen Saevherne's to-do list includes handling the infernal catch-up game that results from their own gift to elvendom.

And, as ever, it's the character and desires of the dreamers that play a central role in what happens. This is literature; here, on the screen of the magi, you learn what it is to be human.

Imagine then Lara Dorren, who is locked into a future of her race's making, hoping for a union between that which is elven and human, knowing it will happen eventually, as it has already happened before.

Imagine Avallac'h, whose sight is set on a time beyond the tale involving the child surprise and her witcher, since he is yet to accept amor fati and how nothing is lost and everything is transformed.

Imagine Auberon, holding on to his role as the demiurge-ruler whose expired ambition tempts him to glance at fate that remains beyond his own existence, glimpsing, in the process, at the sole thing he has yet failed to experience.

Imagine Ciri, who cannot grow and begin to face herself and the fate she will forge until she has returned to the beginning of her needs and slain the darkness that took herself from her.

Or imagine Geralt, who cannot see the future, but can only hope for one, and acts as his heart wills it regardless of what he is told the narrative is going to be like; nothing for him can go differently than it does.

...and eventually humanity, before learning the value of balance, goes on to conquer nature and achieve transhumanity, facing exile from the world they've destroyed (that has tried destroying them). Long-long after the elves, familiar yet so alien, have left for the beyond. And the two remain differentiated only by their mirror image standing several cycles ahead and parallel of the other in Time. Everything repeats itself. The fantasy worlds fragment and multiply, ad infinitum. Everyone learns something, nobody learns anything.

[vardasvapors]

@crocordile submitted:

There’s another part that stumps me and it’s actually the biggest first age mystery in my opinion*, so like? ignore it i absolutely will NOT judge you bc it’s so minor, it’s prolly not of much interest to anyone else besides me and kate, but i’ll just put it here:

“The people of Aradan (for Marach his father remained in Estolad until his death) for the most part went on westward; and some came to Hithlum, but Magor son of Aradan and many of the people passed down Sirion into Beleriand and dwelt a while in the vales of the southern slopes of Ered Wethrin.”

Like… why did the house of Marach separate on their march west from Estolad… Does this mean a portion of the house (under… Malach Aradan?) went to Hithlum and another under his son, Magor, went to Eredh Wethrin? And then his son, Hador, goes into Fingolfin’s service and receives Hithlum for his people from Fingolfin himself? So those who were south march up to Hithlum and they are all reunited as a people? Or did the first Hithlum settlers die, or… what? Did something happen to force Magor to take some people south, and then he decided to send Hador into Fingolfin’s service as a political move? Or was Magor not inclined towards elves, and Hador did it more independently? What does it all mean?? Man, this is something I can never figure out or properly headcanon, and it’s always bothered me!

* my númenorean self insert (who was around before you joined the tumblr fandom) was probably studying that subject and failed her masters on account of not being able to find enough sources…. tbqh… Then she changed masters completely and went to study something more mainstream and with more funding like the Children of Húrin ;)

First, SORRY THIS TOOK ME SO LONG TO ANSWER. You’re right that this isn’t an issue I ever noticed before, and I had to re-read the relevant section about three times before I thought everything out.

Anyway I really like your one idea of Magor not wanting to be tangled up with elves tbh! Like, if Magor and Malach Aradan had opposing viewpoints about “shack up with the elves for security/alliance to fight our common enemy” vs “lets try to find some nice quiet unbothered mountains to live on w no warring fairies milling around (lol)” with Magor believing that they genuinely could avoid it and live in peace somewhere, that in Ered Wethrin they could just, indefinitely avoid Morgoth. Which makes no sense. Um.

Okay that sounds dumb but HONESTLY, given that condition of human timespans and frames of reference….if this conflict in views with his father slowly increased over time until Magor decided to break away. We’re gonna start our own fiefdom! Under our own control! But we can’t go too far because it’s too dangerous and difficult so lets camp out in the mountains near the Beorians instead….indefinitely….that’s so weirdly like “real life” “history” it only seems almost kinda out of place in the Silm I guess.

Anyway I also like the idea that this somehow wound up resulting in some ADVENTURE QUEST EPIC THING that never wound up getting elaborated upon properly in the Silm because like, idk, the records were all destroyed! or no one but the Hadorians cared! about how everyone tramping all the way back up to Hithlum was actually a big deal! and so Hador’s leading his people to return to Hithlum to be reunited with the other branch, and the thing with his people being re-named after him and Fingolfin giving Dor-Lomin to Hador and showing how hey actually he’s just fine with them doing their own thing in their own land under mostly their own control, the elves aren’t here to screw them, and all that stuff is like….just further enhancing and enshrining Hador’s Awesomeness™ and personal memorability in the eyes of history. The Hadorians viewing this as a very strong reference point for narratives in praise of increased friendship! trust! openness! alliance! cooperation!

Though also I fucking…forgot Magor was Adanel’s brother. Adanel, who remembers the old secret traditions of men! Stuff they had before they knew of elves! I can’t decide if that means she might share my-headcanon-Magor-I-just-made-up-now’s views, or if in contrast, she held a deep belief that humans are fallen and will be pursued by their doom to the ends of the earth as a echoing result of their liaison with Melkor in the early times in the dark, and no matter where you run or what you do or how studiously you mind your own business it won’t help. So anyway if Magor didn’t split away from his sister, since she went to Dorthonion to intermarry with the House of Beor, right….well idk the House of Beor was pretty tangled up with elves. Okay maybe the staying away from elves thing isn’t that well supported, but I like the idea of Hador’s Hadorness and him being apparently kinda nuts about elves, being something revolutionary-ish, to lend a bit more support to his people renaming themselves after him and all.

Also your idea of like, if the Edain under Malach Aradan who went to Hithlum first DID die out (in some deadly plague or something?) is very interesting in conjunction…but idk it feels like something that big doesn’t quite jibe with the descriptions of the state of things during the siege….

[liaragaming]

I just want to clear some things up about Solas

I’ve seen a lot of comments like, “Why can’t Solas just let the past go?”

And “If Lavellan isn’t enough of a reason to not destroy this world, then what’s the point?”

The short answer is it’s not about the lost empire of the elves, and it’s not about Lavellan.

Put yourself in Solas’ shoes for a second.

We know Arlathan was just about as bad a Tevinter, and the elven gods were a very power hungry (and in some cases blood thirsty) group. Solas seeks to free his people from them by freeing the salves and leading a rebellion against them.

Now, something happened to that rebellion. Something didn’t work out. I have a theory that Mythal played a part in it (and that’s why she and Fen’Harel are depicted together in places), and that’s why the evanuris killed her. Whatever the case, something fell through, and Solas needed a new plan.

(Or they killed Mythal for some other reason and Solas got so pissed he said, “Screw this! New plan!” That works too, I guess.)

So he decides to create the veil and trap the evanuris behind it. Can you imagine the amount of power that required? Solas sleeps for ages after creating the veil and tells the Inquisitor he awoke still weak a year before the events at Haven. He’s so weak he can’t even unlock his own foci.

Holy hell. What kind of magic knocks you out for thousands of years?

And then Solas wakes up, and not only is everything he had hoped to save utterly destroyed but the world is completely changed. He admits to the Inquisitor that the people of Thedas weren’t even people to him at first. It was like walking through a world of tranquil.

Now, we as players have spent years in the world of Thedas. And our natural response is, “Psh, Solas. Get over yourself.” But put yourself in Solas’ shoes and consider that this world of Thedas that we know and love to Solas is more akin to a post-apocalyptic world.

Solas caused the freaking apocalypse.

I would encourage you to imagine the worst post-apocalyptic world you can think of where human beings are still alive but barely making due to the point that you wouldn’t recognize them as people at first. That’s how Solas sees Thedas.

But then Solas spends some time in that world, and gets to meet and know the people, even falls in love with one of them.

That’s the moment that changes everything, and then changes nothing.

Solas realizes he was misguided in his initial judgement of the people of this new world. But it doesn’t change his goal. Because his goal was never about making this world stable to support genuine life again. He just believed it wasn’t stable at all, and that made his goal a lot easier thinking the loss of these strange people wouldn’t amount to anything.

But now he knows it will. He knows ripping down the veil will cause the end of countless lives, and their blood will be on his hands. And it will likely include the blood of the people he cares about, maybe even loves.

It changes everything, but it can’t.

You’d think this would be enough for Solas to revise his plans. But he doesn’t because he can’t. This is stressed over and over again in game.

When you think about it, Solas’ plan really doesn’t make that much sense. How is killing everyone and effectively resetting the world restoring the elves? Because it’s not. Yes, magic will come back, but at worse everyone will be reset to hunter/gatherer status and he’s just hoping after so many eons, the elves will eventually regain the empire.

Which sounds like quite the stretch, to be honest.

On top of that, this extremely thin chance to “restore” the elves will likely end in his death (possibly because tearing down the veil will also require an enormous amount of power and he’s not as strong as he was). He says this in Trespasser to a Lavellan who asks to join him.

That’s a hell of risk for such a slim chance, and then consider that Solas doesn’t even really want to do this. The whole game, he’s all about helping people and approves when you as a player do it. Even in Trespasser, banter from Cole reveals that Solas doesn’t want to hurt anyone (this coming from the spirit who has no qualms killing people who want to kill other people and yet still holds Solas dear).

Why continue down this path if (a) he’ll likely die doing it, (b) it doesn’t really restore what was lost, and ( c) he’s really not that into it?

Because he can’t.

Solas carries a lot of guilt and self-loathing.

This can be easy to overlook if you’re not paying attention and you don’t choose the right dialogue options.

I strongly suggest revisiting Trespasser and listening to the weight of his voice as he talks. Even for a low-approval Inquisitor, you can hear how hard it is for him to explain he’s Fen’Harel. He’s not happy or proud to be back in this role. He liked being just Solas. It was much simpler.

If you choose the “You fought for freedom / I know you’re not evil / My people were wrong” thumbs up option, he’ll reject the notion, saying that he doesn’t deserve the credit.

It’s also worth listening to his explanation of what happened to the elves (as he walks with the Inquisitor over to the ruins). He’s particularly weighty during that part (before you have the chance to ask questions). And he specifically tells you, he destroyed the elves.

After he explains his plan to tear down the veil and destroy the world, if you choose the “truly?” option, the Inquisitor will say that they never thought of Solas as someone who would do such a thing. His composure breaks for a moment and he says a soft, “Thank you.”

He knows what he’s done and what he’s capable of, and he doesn’t like that part of himself. And he doesn’t forgive himself for it either.

Saving Solas from himself

At the end of Trespasser, an Inquisitor set on redeeming Solas vows to “save our friend from himself.” That hit me as odd the first time because I’d gotten so caught up in the revelations and hadn’t explored the “correct” dialogue options to realize what was going on.

“Solas is determined to help the elves, right? Sounds like a pretty solid plan. What’s this save him from himself about?”

tl;dr Solas’ ultimate plan isn’t to restore the elves, but to fix his mistake. Everything Solas fought to save by creating the veil was effectively destroyed by it. The guilt of that weighs on him to the point that he can’t let it go. He will rectify his mistake by tearing the veil down, even if it means his death, even if it doesn’t actually restore the elves, even if everyone he cares about dies along with countless innocents. He is the reason the elves fell, and he cannot live with that on his conscience. He has to try.

Resorting Arlathan isn’t the point.

Finding value in this world isn’t the point.

Falling in love with Lavellan isn’t the point.

His guilt is. And it’s strong enough to take him and the rest of the world down with him.

And that’s why he needs saving from himself.

Bonus - More Guilt!

Didn’t fit above, but worth pointing out:

(1) Solas put up the veil, which took magic from everyone. And then traveling with you, he gets to see first hand the after effects of the Mage Templar War - people driven from their homes, cold and starving; families torn apart; people killing each other over fear and hatred.

I have no doubt the irony isn’t lost on Solas that this war never would have happened if the veil hadn’t been created and made magic scarce enough for people to fear it.

(2) Lavellan romance. Solas states repeatedly that his interest in the relationship is “selfish.” He says he’s “furious” with himself after breaking the relationship off. And at least once he tells her she deserves better (special mention goes to the “I’m not giving up on you” break up option where his response is “you truly should”). And even though he refuses to discuss it, that’s still weighing on him to the point that he feels he has to give her some kind of an explanation at the end game before he disappears. I’m not even going to get into how it’s still weighing on him in Trespasser.

(3) Mythal. He killed his best friend. I mean, damn. Not to mention, it’s the very act he doomed the evanuris to an eternity of punishment for and believed they - and now himself - deserve. Double damn.

(4) Solas’ biggest fear is of dying alone. He knows the path he walks is hard, that his choices create enemies. He expects to be alone at the end, with no one to mourn him.

(5) Let’s face it, there’s probably lots more, including stuff we don’t know about.

Do people realize the amount of guilt this guy is carrying around? Is this starting to make sense now? AM I SCREAMING INTO THE ABYSS?!?!

Believe it or not, I told myself this morning I was NOT going to write an essay on what’s going on inside Solas’ head.

EDITS:

(6) Thanks to @bearlytolerable​ for pointing this out, but freaking spirits! They used to exist in conjunction with reality. And now, with the creation of the veil, the shock of passing into reality is enough to turn many of them into demons. Solas’ responsibility for this isn’t lost on him.