#tharntype wedding

[gunsatthaphan]

happy marriage equality to my favorite brides and grooms 🏳️‍🌈🥹🫶🏻

[waitmyturtles]

Have you read any of the Thai academic papers regarding MAME's work? sometimes I feel like fandom at large has a very strong western bias towards her that borders on xenophobia in review of anything attached to her unless it's more low stakes gmmtv style stuff like wedding plan was which suits western sensibilities more.

Hi, Non! This is interesting framing you've put forth here. I want to note that I'm close with some folks, particularly @bengiyo and @lurkingshan, whose critical tastes I trust, and I can assure myself that they would not call Wedding Plan low stakes. During my Old GMMTV Challenge project, I promised myself that I would not watch another MAME show after Love By Chance and TharnType, and I've taken Ben's and Shan's urging to chuck that aside to add Wedding Plan to my OGMMTVC syllabus, which I'll get to after my summer travels. Let me take a second to sort this all out in a more sensible and chronological answer to touch upon what I know about MAME now that I'm much more read into Thai BLs and the history of the genre.

Regarding academia and MAME, I have not read Thai source material on her start and her legacy in Thai Y novel writing and Thai BL/Series Y television productions. What I am in the midst of reading at the moment is Dr. Thomas Baudinette's Boys Love Media in Thailand (Baudinette hailing from Australia), and he does get in depth with MAME's beginnings, which for me was the first primary source material that I have encountered about her background. To summarize quickly, MAME (along with individuals like INDRYTIMES/Kwang Latika, who wrote the original novel for Love Sick, and others) was part of the first crop of young middle-to-upper-class female college students who became enamored with Japanese BL/yaoi manga, as well as (in many cases) K-pop idols, and began writing fan fiction about and/or in the styles of these interests, which led to the development of the unique Thai Y novel genre.

It does seem to me, at least on Tumblr, that a good chunk of Western fandom here has written off MAME. I'm Asian-American, and I come to my hesitation about MAME from a particularly Asian perspective, so I really can't speak for the non-Asian fans about what they're rejecting. Let me at least explain what I'm rejecting, and how I've engaged in dialogue about it with critical friends here.

LBC did not have as much of what I will attempt to describe as I saw in TharnType, something that I might now call collectivist homophobia or collectivist bias. But LBC had a smattering of it, something that I smelled early on in that series. In both series, MAME seemed to approach her characters, to me, with a distanced hand of judgement that, to me, recalled the kinds of biases that my Asian parents tried to implant in me in my childhood, that I rejected throughout my young years. Queer material is so very often not good to its queer characters, and it seemed to me through LBC and TT that MAME intended to gild that lily to channel a populist homophobia that she seemed to know would resonate with a broader fanbase -- which it did, in part, because TharnType in particular was the first Thai BL with heat in every episode.

(Two things to note about my review of TharnType that I penned last year. First item to note is that Boys Love Media in Thailand had not been published yet, and I had not read primary source material about MAME. I was enraged at the time about fan theories that MAME had been a victim of sexual assault, and had therefore written her queer characters with the biased vitriol that I perceived coming from her because of that theorized past. I still think these theories are equivocating and problematic. Second item is that I heavily recommend reading the reblogs of my TT review, tags and posts and all, to see literally the spectrum of commentary of the MAME fandom/anti-fandom across Tumblr. Writing that post and reading those reblogs was a hell of a great experience.)

Just to summarize this, then -- I choose to not engage with MAME because I see under- and overhanded bias in the work that I've watched, with my Asian eyes; and I just might assume that many Westerners see the same thing. But I don't really know, because I haven't talked to that many Western fans about the depth of this.

So what does this mean for this moment in time? I understand MAME's Love Sea is airing, which I'm not watching, and I missed the boat on Love In the Air -- so I think I'm missing some critical and/or catty chatter about those two shows from the fandom because I don't have context.

But I do know there are folks out there that either write MAME off wholly, likely for similar reasons that I've listed above, and/or hate-watch her shows and post about it. To each their own.

I would not have considered Wedding Plan if Ben and Shan weren't screaming about it. I'm happy to have fewer shows on my plate, I got no time. However.

Nothing in this world exists in a static vacuum. If MAME is experimenting with tone, approach, style, and even taste regarding her shows, then more power to her. @bengiyo's post linked above about Wedding Plan is important for me to see, because I see that he's noting that parts of the fandom may have actually demonstrated real homophobic dialogue about MAME's fictional characters, which, to me, I'm like, what? Really? You got time for that? But also:

If MAME, back in 2019 with TharnType, picked up that her Thai and global fanbases were more inclined to check in with collectivist homophobia, as I'm calling it.... and now, in 2023-2024, has noted that her fanbases might be far more inclined to support real queer equality and overtones in shows, and is including those themes in her work -- can we not welcome that change in? That's why I'll give Wedding Plan a shot.

Let's be sassy and ironic for a second. Could she be making this change for da money and the fame? Sure. But -- capitalism unfortunately rules this world. Car commercials in the States have interracial queer couples parenting children nowadays. If equality talks to money, then content makers will take note. I think I'd be a hypocrite to say that MAME shouldn't make her dollar, all while she's experimenting with more equitable stances.

Last note. There's been quite the dialogue simmering these past few weeks about GMMTV's We Are, and whether or not GMMTV is stepping away from a past where many (not all, but many) of its shows explored queerness in depth. He's Coming To Me, Bad Buddy, Dark Blue Kiss (yes... the first three shows I listed were Aof Noppharnach shows, fuck), Theory of Love, 3 Will Be Free. The major GMMTV BL/GL shows that have aired recently that have made huge waves on social media -- Only Friends, 23.5, Last Twilight, and now My Love Mix-Up -- were/are helmed by branded (capitalism, hello!) pairs, and three out of four of them were flops, with MLMU already treading that territory in EPISODE TWO, for heaven's sake. (Y'all, read the reblogs on this post. Wow.) I finished a rewatch of The Eclipse weeks ago, and I'm dragging my feet on my review, because of what I think that show represents for what branded pairs end up doing to otherwise original content.

I want to posit a theory, that I'll work more on when my OGMMTVC is over, that we have living, real-time proof that the branded pair system is failing good content -- because these shows have to produce engagement snippets of these pairs, instead of more broadly penetrating artistic content. GMMTV's one-off shows with non-branded pairs, like Be My Favorite and Wandee Goodday, are FAR MORE INTERESTING content-wise, varied and inquisitive in their artistic takes on queerness. Even Cherry Magic, featuring the long-awaited return of TayNew, felt fresh, because we literally hadn't seen TayNew in FIVE YEARS. Tay actually KISSED ANOTHER DUDE, shocker!, in 3 Will Be Free. I want to go back to those days, where the pairs could act well outside of their range and their business partners, instead of being limited to the same tone and style that their pairings and their fandoms demand.

I say ALL OF THIS, because isn't it interesting that GMMTV seems to be reverting on a scale of inquisitiveness about queerness -- and MAME seems to be going in the opposite direction?

I would not have expected it. But I have found, lately, some of GMMTV's "takes" on "queerness," as in Only Friends, to be outright offensive. This corporation has become far more gunshy to let their branded pairs just be fictionally gay. If MAME wants to take on a healthier stance of equity, and to play around with more realistic depictions of what it means to be queer in Thailand, then go for it, girl. I will admittedly be watching Wedding Plan with my Asian side-eye and my smell tests for bias, but I look forward to being proven wrong about my suspicions. I want to be a responsible fan here, open to MAME's changes.

This ended up being a lot, but thank you for provoking these thoughts, Non.

[ineffable-opinions]

MAME & BL Literacy Part 1

Another MAME show is airing and I thought it was good time to discuss what makes that author controversial.

As usual, critiques and corrections are welcome.

-

For those who don’t know MAME is a unique Thai BL creator. I have discussed in a previous post (that can be found here and here) how Thai BL is lacking in BL literacies. MAME is one of the exceptions. This is because:

she is a BL author & hence, one of the creators of BL literacies

she studied BL and its production academically [you can find her research output by searching her name: อรวรรณ วิชญวรรณกุล]

then she started producing live action BL.

In an industry which is lacking in BL literacies, what she brings to the table is fu-culture (BL fan culture) in all its glory. Unfortunately, the live action audience who are fans of sweet BL, have a hard time adjusting.

This is an exploration of response to her works, starting with the review of Love by Chance @waitmyturtles discussing all the ships in that series: AePete, TinCan, TarTum and KengklaTechno. This pretty much ties up what I identify as the first issue with BL literacies deficiency and MAME’s knowledge.

Here are some typical narrative progressions for a (Japanese) BL:

あまあま – sweet

ユニーク – unique

シリアス – serious

邪道 – evil road (Jadō)

王道 - royal road (odo)

Any theme/one-line plot can choose to take any of these narrative progressions. Moreover, Thai BL usually originates online which allows for innovation in narrative progression.

AePete

In Love by Chance AePete follows the typical sweet BL narrative progression. Sweet BL is characterised by an overall sweet flavor (characters, mainly the pairing, would be sweet in behaviour and motivation) and relationship progression is pretty smooth. This is the narrative progression that GMMTV sticks to. I have discussed their reasons as well as why it might not be a good thing in the long run here.

KengklaTechno

Their story follows jado narrative progression.

Quick note about Jado BL & Kengkla as a kichiku seme

One or more characters in a ship being emotional aggressors, physical abusers, sexual predators or outright villains is a very common trope in BL genre. These are popular sub-types (most notable: brute kichiku 鬼畜) of seme/uke/riba with these specific attributes and they have dedicated fans who thoroughly enjoy such characterizations. But these are clearly not everyone’s cup of tea. Some BL fans find these themes unbearable. That is why GMMTV and other BL live-action producers who don’t want to upset any of their audience members usually:

avoid such characterizations all together especially with sweet narrative progression

tries to soften such characters into more universally palatable forms

tries to redeem those characters by getting rid of those with odo – this is what currently airing My Stand-In would do.

make them villains – never making them the protagonists who gets any kind of happy ending

This is done not to trouble the average audience’s worldview (世界観) and is clearly a low effort and low skill (in terms of BL literacies) approach. But since a lot of audience don’t appreciate villain-like characterization, it is clearly low risk, no chance of a backlash from angry audience and the best method for assured money making.

Occasionally BL live-action producers venture into the risky terrains, especially with jado. The Japanese does it a lot, usually in movie format. China and Taiwan also delve into jado fairly regularly. But live action Thai BL seldom does anything commercially dangerous.  

In a jado BL, a character might do terrible things and manipulate the other character(s) in the ship. But won’t feel remorse, apologize and improve for better. This is a violation of the expectation placed on characters on sweet narrative progression. Sweet BL audience do not expect characters in a ship to be anything but good to each other, especially after they have become a couple. While audience don’t mind characters making mistakes, in this narrative progression audience also expect characters to learn from their mistakes and to grow closer by earning and giving forgiveness.

In jado BL that focuses on characters being villains, there are no such expectations. These BL work within the confines of their own worldview which don’t necessarily match with our IRL worldview. Characters are allowed to act in ways that goes against our everyday perception of what is right and what is wrong. Neither the characters nor the audience expect the characters to right their wrong, to apologize or to get punished, through judicial procedure or otherwise. Happy endings are not after reparations and resolution of issues, it would be in spite of those. Bad endings aren’t necessarily punishments for bad actions committed throughout the narrative, that’s just the ending of that story. Unlike with the BL with sweet narrative progression, these BL are not necessarily stories of two or more guys falling in love. Neither is their love (if at all there is love) expected to be healthy and wholesome. (It can be wholesome but it is just as well if it is not.) There are expectations from such narrative progressions too and resolution to most issues aren’t among those expectations. Clearly not everyone’s cup of tea, especially if they expect BL to be didactic like fables.

Problem getting papered over is the expected approach in jado. When characters get together/get back together with “problems” never really dealt with, it is proper meriba (merry bad ending). Plain bad ending where there is no resolution is also typical in jado BL.

Moreover, it is difficult to sell BL with jado and other narrative progressions. It becomes even more difficult to sell branded pairings when the characters they play are not impeccable. It is unlikely that actors playing bad guys can sell products for advertisers. (Imagine the characters from The Effect being in ads together!) It is even more unlikely that fans would go broke behind wicked characters and would want to attend fan-meetings and concerts featuring them in some way.

Kengkla is two-faced and an excellent yandere. He appears to be a cute and innocent junior in front of Techno. Audience also gets to see him in Machiavellian mode. This is something that Techno doesn’t have access to, at least in Love by Chance. Techno’s brother is his facilitator in the narrative, which in turn makes him two-faced too. Techno is not omniscient and Kengkla manages to trap him. And that’s where Love by Chance ends.

TarTum

There pairing is an excellent example of MAME’s skilled employment of BL literacies. TarTum is a sweet BL, complicated by them being step-brothers. While their pairing is barely odo, Tum as a character has a complicated odo progression. Horrors from his past haunts him. The journey is going to be complicated. It won’t be linear. There would be slip up on his part and that of others. But there’s light at the end of the tunnel. Those who love odo do so because of the pleasurable pay off, much more than sweet BL. It is a rollercoaster, and that’s why fans like it.

TinCan

This is another pairing with sweet narrative progression but with a rare dynamic: weak seme x weak uke, i.e., neither of them is strong in their pursuit. This is a notoriously tough dynamic to write, so much so that there are relatively few BL with this dynamic.

Multiple Pairings in a Piece

This is something I personally appreciate a lot. It is not often that we get a piece with different pairing with different types of narrative progressions. Authors choose this method and build universes so that they can reach the biggest audience.

A lot of people enjoyed Love by Chance because they could enjoy AePete. While I understand, I don’t relate to that. AePete was my least favourite pairing among them all. I enjoy dangerous characterizations over subdued ones and prefer a meriba over a happy ending. While there are plenty of BL media with those, they are rare in live action. In my first watch, I was constantly tempted to find fan-edits of every couple other than AePete. So, what is time wasted for some is actually really enjoyable moments for another. MAME gets that and I appreciate her for that.

Queerness, heterosexism and ‘Asian’ culture

@waitmyturtles also discusses “a kind of macro cishet perspective on AePete relationship” in relation to “Ae’s randiness and jealous tendencies” and Pete’s response or lack thereof as well as “Ae not being able to take Pete’s help, and Ae’s tendency towards stereotypically masculine POVs and behaviors” tied to “MAME’s story structure here is based in Asian cultural homophobia, in stereotypes of how the queer community should act by way of societal expectations in Asia.”

To unravel that:

I don’t know what “cishet perspective” means in relation to AePete, a pairing consisting of two androphilic male characters. I also don’t know what were the expectations on Ae and Pete in terms of randiness and jealousy.

More interesting I think is the question underlying the statement about Ae’s performance of “stereotypically masculine POVs and behaviors”. Now, what does that mean? In order to understand that it is important to figure out which type(s) of masculinity Ae would subscribe to based on his class, ethnicity and where he comes from (Thai masculinities show considerable variation with location). It will be meaningful to evaluate Ae’s behaviour with respect to: a) what he thinks is the “manly” thing to do b) what Pete does

Take “Ae not being able to take Pete’s help” for example. In their 2021 paper ภาพแทนชายรักชายในนวนิยายยาโออิ เรื่อง รักนี้บังเอิญคือคุณ [The Representation of Homosexual Men in the Yaoi Novel: My Accidental Love Is You] Phuwadech Doungmanee, Panunda Lerlertyuttitham & Natthanai Prasannam goes deep into this:

MAME employs four typical prejudices against male homosexuality perpetuated within the Thai society to create conflicts within the plot: 1) male homosexuality unacceptably deviates from the social norms 2) male homosexuality must not be “out” 3) male homosexuality brings disappointment and shame to the family, and 4) male homosexuality cannot earn true love; love must be purchased instead.

Pete trying to purchase Ae’s love is implied when he is offering ‘help’. This is a stereotypically masculine behaviour and an elitist one at that. As with other stereotypes listed above, this one too gets treated well (with Ae’s refusal to accept) even thought it might not seem so from a Western heterosexist lens.

Along with discursive clashes challenging earlier beliefs, those who hold the prejudices tend to be judged by poetic justice. The author thus educates the society and reading public on alternatives views in relation to male homosexuality. (source: The Representation of Homosexual Men in the Yaoi Novel: My Accidental Love Is You)

There is no one Asian culture. Here are the three popular types of masculinities in Thailand (these are very different from Malayali and Tamil masculinities I am personally familiar with):

Monk

secular male - chaai chatri (ชายชาตรี): embodies typical masculine features such as ‘authority, courage, self-assurance, physical and emotional strength, and sexual prowess’ as well as someone who ‘would under normal circumstances control his sexuality as much as possible and be loyal to his family.’

lower-middle-class - nak leng (นักเลง): ‘a man who is brave, daring, risk-taking but also fair.’ In more recent decade: ‘a man who is tough, loyal to allies and a playboy with numerous sexual affairs.’

Both Ae and Pete are very masculine in very different forms. MAME is not only familiar with different forms of masculinities and femininities, and their region-specific variations, but also plays around with it a lot. The male femininity is also achieved in both the characters in a similar manner. All of this might easily escape the audience members who have limited understanding of Thai masculinities and femininities.

Pete isn’t shown to be unsettled by Ae’s randiness because it is an interplay of two different masculinities done with grace. Pete not only plays the polished, prince-role to a kunlasatree (กุลสต กุ รี; a stereotypical good woman, defined as ‘proficient and sophisticated in household duties; graceful, pleasant, yet unassuming in her appearance and social manners; and conservative in her sexuality’), he is also an out-and-out chaai chatri.  

Physical Relationships and Explicit Content

One of MAME’s contributions to BL is in the toppling of certain beliefs, guided by sexism, BL live action creators were operating under prior to her.

Sathaporn Panichraksapong, an MD of GMMTV, a major producer of BL series, claimed that audience members who are mainly heterosexual women look for romantic relationships among the characters rather than sexual relationships.

We know that our audience are [sic] women. Women want to see only two boys having romantic moments together. They don’t want to see sex. Sexual relationships in BL are for a gay audience. That’s why in SOTUS the Series we have only two kissing scenes. With only these, audiences were already screaming. This is enough for them. (Interview with Sathaporn, GMMTV, 10 Aug. 2017)

Jirattikorn, Amporn. “Heterosexual Reading vs. Queering Thai Boys’ Love Dramas among Chinese and Filipino Audiences.” (2023).

As Jirattikorn goes on to highlight, this [wrong] perception about the audience (“women”) have changed ever since.

While early BL series tend to portray pure love without showing many sexual relationships, later BL series started to show more sex scenes between the two male lead characters.

Jirattikorn (2023)

Trauma & Porn

Itai Itai Itai (if you know, you know)

To claim that it is Asian cultural homophobia that MAME leveraged in Love by Chance through the inclusion of gang rape, incest, and unhappy ending is doing a disservice to BL and other queer genres including gei comi, all of which are well known for both trauma and porn. Aof Noppharnach and Cheewin’s lack of BL literacies is evident in their works. The way Aof Noppharnach shamed the use of the term เมีย ‘wife’ in Bad Buddy in spite of its usage by queer people, especially the little people among them, is evidence enough of the contempt and disregard he can bring in through his positionality as an “auteur”. To compare him to MAME is a little callous, especially when MAME constantly questions positionality and power through the stories she tells.

MAME’s trauma or lack thereof is none of anyone’s concern. So is what she does with it.

But the assumption that trauma in BL is a product of an author who themselves went through it is ludicrous and ignorant because BL from the days of tanbi (and its predecessors) have been engaging with it. There is already half a century’s history of BL with trauma and taboo themes.  

-

you can find the review discussed in this post here:

This is Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

[lurkingshan]

View this post on Instagram

A post shared by 💚🧡 BL FANS 🖤💙 (@boyslove.x)

Uhhhh y’all. Did you catch who they’re playing? This is the second side couple from TharnType 2. They’ve recast those characters with Boss playing Cirrus and Noeul playing Phugun. I believe @absolutebl called their dynamic in that show something like daddy/boy. I remember Phugun being very babyish and playing with a lot of stuffed animals…

This is because everyone lost their minds over that daddy scene in the LITA special, isn’t it? What have we done to ourselves. @negrowhat did you see this??

[forkaround]

Anyone else notice that the only female screenwriter/director that's also a 'household' name is loathed for her work when the same tropes/situations in other BLs, by male screenwriters/directors are not? I'm talking about MAME. (who else?)

Pan BL fandom she is hated no matter what and she is the only BL writer (OG and Screen) that's treated like this. She is a very good writer. I've seen people complain about the plot but she is very much not a plot writer, she is a character writer and her characters are brilliantly crafted. They don't fall into pure moralities. They are complex. Human. She makes brilliant shows. She knows the foundations of writing very well. Not a single one of her shows has fizzled out at the end like most of GMMTV and many other companies/writers work. She started a business by herself to tell the stories she feels compelled to tell. She doesn't stick to a 'formula' (12 episodes, 11th episode breakup, etc.). Each story is told in a format that suits the story being told. Hell I'm sure she saw the DSN reviews about the second half not being as good and came up with the LITA formula (which, imo, is genius). I believe Wedding Plan is one of very few proper QLs where the female characters are crafted/given screen time equally to the male characters for the story being told. (Looking at you Bad Buddy, would it hurt you to have more InkPa?)

And despite all this she is, first of all, the only female 'household' name in BL and, also the most hated. People talk about her like spiting venom. The fandom picks apart her work in the most bad faith way possible just because it's a MAME product. Somehow it's fetishization only when she does it. The same story, the same tropes/plot line, the same SA under a male writer or director's name isn't scrutinized the way it's under MAME. If a man does it, it's a realistic queer experience. But it's the same thing. So I'm wondering why people hate when she does it but not when they do it? Especially since most of BL is written and directed by MEN! (Anyone going BL is for-by women really needs to look up who is writing and directing 90% of BLs in Thailand. Japan has the opposite stats, it's mostly made by women, that is as much as I could find.)

I believe Thai people love her (from what I've heard) and this is a everyone else thing. Foreigners hate her for some reason.

As a writer myself the mentality of the English speaking fandom I encounter on the internet is very concerning. Purity is very important to these fans. That's why they opt for the most tame BLs, all from GMMTV. And when some character does something slightly bad the fandom has to justify it with something. Take Only Friends for example, they are making these 20 smts into Korn TPKL level masterminds to justify liking or hating a character. Or fans would justify a characters bad behavior as them having been abused at home like Tantai from Laws of Attraction. As if that's an excuse. (explanation, yes. Excuse, no).

Purity has no place in art. Art isn't pure. Art is messy. It can't be anything else.

[absolutebl]

Boopocalypse

[iguessitsjustme]

[omgtheregoesthefuckidontgive]

So I just finished watching Wedding Plan and instead of just letting it go I was like no no I must mind map how every character in the MAME universe are connected

So that's what I got so far (with like only main character and story lines that we'll actually see)

Cuz I'm so sure we're getting another series unless I imagined seeing that somewhere (cirrusphugun)

Anyway am I missing anything?

Idk why but I'm strangely invested in this little gay universe

[itsjulesharper]

All the BLs I've Watched (so far)

I can't exactly remember when I first started watching BL (seems like years!) but I began making a record of what I'd watched from around July 2022. First it was to just write down what I'd seen. Then it was other details, like country, ep count and some deets to help me remember it. I also marked them by excellence, rewatch value or UGH (aka weird, stupid, terrible).

So here’s my stats month-by-month:

Total BL watched to 30 September 2023 - 282 From - Thailand, Korea, Japan, China, Taiwan, Philippines, Vietnam Year Range - 2014-present

JULY 2022 Watched - 23

Loved 🥰 - Semantic Error, Cherry Blossoms after Winter, The Untamed, BlueMing, Theory of Love, Bad Buddy, Star In My Mind, Cutie Pie Toxic but still loved it - KinnPorsche, We Best Love, My Beautiful Man WTFery 🥴- TharnType Didn’t match hype - not yet! 🔥 NC - KinnPorsche, TharnType, Not Me Different from the norm - Not Me, Old Fashion Cupcake, The Untamed, BlueMing Just all-round lovely - Cherry Magic Needed More eps - The Tuxedo Still salty about: the ChampDoc buildup that went nowhere (TharnType) Obsessed with - JoongDunk, Wangxian, OffGun, VegasPete, ZeeNuNew, MaxNat, Jeff Satur singing Why Don't You Stay

AUGUST 2022 watched - 39

Loved 🥰 - Don’t Say No, Love Mechanics, Fish Upon The Sky, 2Gether, Love By Chance, 21 Days Theory, Light On Me Toxic but still kinda loved it - Why R U? Tonhon Chonlatee WTFery 🥴- My Lacivious Boss, With Love, Uncontrolled Love, WaterBoyy, Make It Right Didn’t match hype - Unforgotten Night 🔥NC - Don’t Say No, Love Mechanics, Love By Chance Different from the norm - On Cloud 9, Present Perfect + Present Still Perfect Just all-round lovely - Enchante, Light on Me Needed more eps - Ingredients, Calculating Love Still salty about - LeonPob breakup (Don’t Say No), Fighter’s toxicity and the shortness of the MaxNat story (thanks, Covid) (Why R U?) Obsessed with - YinnWar, Saint, BrightWin, LeoFiat/JaFirst, PondPhuwin, ForceBook, Jeff Satur

SEPTEMBER 2022 watched - 8

Loved 🥰 - Love In The Air, Love Class, To My Star, About Youth Toxic but still loved it - none WTFery 🥴 - none Didn’t match hype - Oxygen 🔥NC - Love In The Air Different from the norm - DNA Says I Love You Just all-round lovely - About Youth Needed More Eps - Oh, My Boarding House, About Youth Obsessed with - About Youth OST, PrapaiSky + PayuRain / BossNoeul, baby!!!

OCTOBER 2022 watched - 22

Loved 🥰 - Until We Meet Again, Lovely Writer, The Shipper, Plus + Minus Problematic but still loved it - HIStory 1, HIStory 2, Work From Heart WTFery 🥴- Paint With Love Didn’t match hype - Coffee Melody 🔥NC - Work From Heart, Lovely Writer, Plus + Minus, Big Dragon Different from the norm - Colour Rush, Lovely Writer Just all-round lovely - Second Chance, Takara-kun and Amagi-kun Needed more eps - Precise Shot Still salty about - The vile father's quick redemption (Work From Heart), the salt (HIStory3: Make Our Days Count - iykyk - I paused prior to THAT SCENE as I prefer to remain blissfully ignorant) Obsessed with - BounPrem, Gameplay

NOVEMBER 2022 watched - 9

Loved 🥰 - Vice Versa Toxic but still kinda loved it - Dark Blue Kiss WTFery 🥴- Skinship Didn’t match hype - Checkout 🔥NC - Checkout (the special ep w/- Tee + Ice) Different from the norm - Vice Versa Just all-round lovely - Vice Versa Needed more eps - En Of Love Still salty about - all the Earth crying (My Only 12%) Obsessed with - TayNew, Cake's love confession (My Only 12%)

DECEMBER 2022 watched - 38

Loved 🥰 - Dear Doctor I’m Coming For Soul, HIStory3: Trapped, My Tooth Your Love, I Told Sunset About You, Till The World Ends Problematic but loved it - The Novelist, Mood Indigo, I Am Your King, War of Y WTFery 🥴 - You Never Eat Alone, That’s My Candy, Bite Me Didn’t match hype - Ai Long Nhai, Remember Me 🔥NC - Fahlanruk, HIStory3: Trapped, War of Y, Mood Indigo, Till The World Ends Different from the norm - Till The World Ends, Life Love On The Line, War of Y, Dear Doctor I’m Coming For Soul Just all-round lovely - He’s Coming To Me, My Tooth Your Love Needed more eps - My Best Story, Nobleman Ryu’s Wedding, I Am Your King Still salty about - the wtf ending (Grey Rainbow), Ja’s wig (Remember Me), the absolute tragedy of LongJoke (Till the World Ends), Chinese bromance labeled as BL on YouTube Obsessed with - Copter, Art, Give Me Your Forever by Zack Tubudlo (feat. Billkin) from I Told Sunset About You OST

JANUARY 2023 watched - 23

Loved 🥰 - Roommates of Poongduck 304, Between Us Toxic but kinda obsessed with it - Lovesick WTFery 🥴 - Lovesick 2 (omggg so many bitches and dramaaaaa!) Didn’t match hype - Cutie Pie 2 🔥NC - Between Us, Cutie Pie 2 Different from the norm - Between Us, Nekoyashiki-Kun Desires To Be Recognised (manga artist + idol = hilarious!) Just all-round lovely - Mr Heart, The Boy Next Door Needed more eps - Cutie Pie 2, Chapter of Green Still salty about - the wtf ending (Kissable Lips) Obsessed with - WayuFilms on YT, BounPrem, JiwoongSeobin (and this iconic bts kiss in PoongDuck)

FEBRUARY 2023 watched - 10

Loved 🥰 - Candy Colour Paradox, HIStory4: Close To You, Oh! My Assistant, Be Loved In House: I Do Problematic for others but I LOVED it - HIStory4: Close To You WTFery 🥴 - none Didn’t match hype - My Sweet Dear 🔥NC - Candy Colour Paradox, HIStory4: Close To You Different from the norm - Candy Colour Paradox Just all-round lovely - Oh! My Assistant Needed more eps - My Sweet Dear Still salty about - camera angle + fish kisses (First Love, Again + Individual Circumstances) Obsessed with - all the cameos from the MODC actors

MARCH 2023 watched - 13

Loved 🥰 - The Warp Effect, All the Liquors, End of the World With You Toxic but I kinda liked it…? - Together With Me WTFery 🥴- Hit Bite Love, Win Jaime’s Heart, Teach Me How Didn’t match hype - Hit Bite Love, The Eclipse 🔥NC - End of The World With You, The Warp Effect Different from the norm - Moonlight Chicken, The Warp Effect, End of The World With You Just all-round lovely -See You After Quarantine, All The Liquors Needed more eps - none Still salty about - the way Knock believed his vile gf over long-time bestie Korn + the creepy asshole doctor (Together With Me), the TINY amount of JoeArmy scenes (The Warp Effect) Obsessed with - GeminiFourth, JoeArmy (The Warp Effect), Thor (Joe from The Warp Effect) appearing in e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g.

APRIL 2023 watched - 19

Loved 🥰 - Our Dating SIM, Unintentional Love Story, Bed Friend, Jack O’Frost Had issues but I loved it - My Beautiful Man 2 WTFery 🥴- Bro and Me Didn’t match hype - Craving You, Chains of Heart 🔥NC - Bed Friend Different from the norm - Unintentional Love Story Just all-round lovely - Peach of Time, Between Us specials on YT Needed more eps - ReminderS (a sequel of sorts to Lovesick) Still salty about - AePete wtf??? (Love By Chance 2), whyyyy DongHee and HoTae didn't date??? (Unintentional Love Story) *note: yes, I know we're getting a S2 Obsessed with - Unintentional Love Story

MAY 2023 watched - 21

Loved 🥰 - Mr Cinderella, ViAn, Never Let Me Go, , My School President, Our Skyy2 Toxic but kinda loved it - My Dear Loser, Want To See You WTFery 🥴- Papa What Is Love, My Day Didn’t match hype - Tin Tem Jai 🔥NC - My Day, Love Bill Different from the norm - Never Let Me Go Just all-round lovely - My School President, KluenNuea's story (OurSkyy2) Needed More Eps - The 11th Brother Still salty about - the wtf ending (Love Bill) Obsessed with - PondPhuwin, O2 Production and all their actors (especially Bá Vinh and Mai Vũ Luân!)

JUNE 2023 watched - 11

Loved 🥰 - Tale of 1000 Stars Had issues but I loved it - none WTFery 🥴- Love Syndrome III, Gen Y 2 Didn’t match hype - Boss and a Babe, StarStruck 🔥NC - Love Syndrome III, Destiny Seeker, The Eighth Sense Different from the norm - PastSenger Just all-round lovely - Star In My Mind (3rd rewatch - still love it!) Needed more eps - The Ring Goes Missing, StarStruck Still salty about - the ruination of Pha/Wayu (GenY) the weird ending (PastSenger), the fish kiss (StarStruck), the weird cuts to Love Syndrome III Obsessed with - EarthMix

JULY 2023 watched - 12

Loved 🥰 - Love Tractor, La Pluie Had issues but was really interesting - Innocent WTFery 🥴 - House of Stars Didn’t match hype - House of Stars 🔥 NC - La Pluie, House of Stars Different from the norm - 3 Will Be Free Just all-round lovely - Love Tractor Needed more eps - Innocent Still salty about - massive holes in the SC story (Innocent), can’t watch all the eps (BoyBand) Obsessed with - yelling about plot holes on Twitter, this absolute freaking song poetry from La Pluie

AUGUST 2023 watched - 13

Loved 🥰 - Why You Y Me?, Mignon (anime), Stay With Me, Happy Merry Ending, Tokyo In April Is… Had issues but I loved it - Gay Ok Bangkok, Tokyo In April Is… WTFery 🥴 - Hidden Love Didn’t match hype - none 🔥NC - Step By Step Different from the norm - Gay OK Bangkok (had a very Queer As Folk feel to it) Just all-round lovely - Sing My Crush Needed more eps - Hyperventilation (anime) Still salty about - the two year gap AND no JaabJane reunion (Step By Step), the cliffhanger (Stay With Me), fricking Skinship Obsessed with - WuBi and SuYu (Stay With Me), Evening Sunday (Why You Y Me?)

SEPTEMBER 2023 watched - 19

Loved 🥰 - Choco Milkshake, Call Boy, Love Class 2, Jun and Jun, Stay By My Side, Hidden Agenda Had issues but I loved it - none WTFery 🥴- Dinosaur Love (TOO. MUCH. TONGUE) Didn’t match hype - Wedding Plan, Dinosaur Love, Be Mine Superstar, Why RU? (Korean remake) 🔥NC - Wedding Plan, Be Mine Superstar, Call Boy, Love Class 2, Why RU? Different from the norm - Call Boy Just all-round lovely - Choco Milkshake Needed more eps - Choco Milkshake, Stay By My Side, Why RU? Still salty about - the lying (Wedding Plan), lack of chemistry (Low Frequency) fish kiss (Love Class 2), the choppy scenes + underdeveloped characters (Be Mine Superstar) Obsessed with - JoongDunk (again!) Kpop idols acting and kissing in BLs

[dandydemidoesfandoms]

[jokers-ghoul]

MAME, how soon is soon? Also, side note, will I absolutely hate this show but continue to watch it for FortPeat? The second one is kind of important. I need to know what I’m walking into.

[ineffable-opinions]

MAME & BL Literacies (Part 4)

Other parts: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3

Contents:

MAME’s queer characters and their lives

Fetishization of queer men and profiting off LGBT community

Why other queer genres like gei comi struggle to get live action adaptation?

(bonus) What Did You Eat Yesterday sexy times

BL and rape culture

Everyday ethnocentrism & BL

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This is the last part of this essay series. In this part, I want to discuss the response this review of TharnType by @waitmyturtles generated. As always, corrections and criticisms are welcome.

-

Here are the points @solitaryandwandering raised:

1. fans will get SO rabid for MAME’s stuff yet resist tuning in for more queer-friendly Taiwanese BL or lower heat fare

I think that the BL MAME creates is "queer-friendly". Moreover, her BL focuses on the intersection of queerness with local forms of gender, patriarchy & heterosexism, class, race, skin color, age, employment, location & regionalism, abilities and disabilities, education, health conditions and access to medical care, urban-rural divide, migrant status, culture, etc.

MAME's BL have aspects of Thai queer culture and praxis that are otherwise overlooked. Here's an example.

Through Techno’s interaction with Tharn in episode 1 of TharnType, MAME highlights an important issue: invisibility of androphilic “man”. Techno comments that Tharn is the first masculine presenting androphilic male he has met, even though he has several queer friends.

This is in part due to skewed presence of androphilic male characters in mainstream media. In Thai soap operas and movies, androphilic men are 'presented as effeminate, overreactive, with a passionate but unrequited interest in men'.

Countering this perception is the hegemony of masculine aesthetics in urban Thailand’s queer culture. 'The English word “man” has been borrowed into Thai gay-speak to denote acting in a masculine way. Man describes a masculine presentation of either gay-identified or heterosexual males and contrasts with the Thai term phu-chai, which also translates as “man” but is used in the specific sense of denoting the gender role of a heterosexually identified male.

'Many Thai gays believe that effeminate gay men, or gay sao, will experience discrimination and prejudice because of their feminine characteristics and behaviours. Thai gays also think that performing gender-normative forms of manhood are useful in establishing sexual and romantic relations with other gays. These expectations are associated with the culture of images, known in Thai as phap-phot, by which many homosexual men feel compelled to act in accord with normative male gender roles.'

This is in contrast to Techno’s queer friends who blur the lines between the masculine and feminine domains. His use of the word kathoey is case in point.

Moreover, the need for social conformity for Thai gays in terms of their gender performance is an urban phenomenon. Ethnographic study by Wijngaarden traced the rapid adoption of more masculine gender performance by gay men who moved from rural setting to urban for the purpose of education and employment. Ambiguity in gender performance is more accepted in rural setting where there is gender-based understandings of homosexuality. Also, gay dating scene in urban areas seem to assign value to masculine presentation.

source

I don't really know what @solitaryandwandering mean by "queer-friendly" in the context of Taiwanese BL.

Support of fu-people (BL fans) for queer works in Taiwan is well-known. When the play 《愛情生活》 Life of Love by Xu ZhengPing was staged, they had BL version shows too.

The play has a short film adaptation which is available for free on GagaOOLala.

Fu-people have also shown their support for series like Breakfast by 想再見你.

2. Fetishization of queer men in yaoi

By that standard, is Minamoto Kazuki fetishizing straight women through his works?

source

Minamoto Kazuki is a gay mangaka who creates straight romance and smut.

Arguably, his most famous manga, at least in BL fandom, is Wall Circle’s Doujin Artist Nekoyashiki-Kun’s Desire for Recognition Grows which got live action adaptation: KabeKoji in 2022.

Apart from creating commercial BL and yaoi (self-published BL like the ones in the image given above), he has also authored an autobiographical work titled Shoujo Manga Artist Minamoto-San Comes Out and a manga exploring queer life and homophobia titled The Gay Who Turned Kaiju.

Moreover, many scholars, mangaka, fans, etc. from Asia and elsewhere have already spoken/written plenty about the issue of fetishization. Here's a compilation of resources.

3. zero critical consumption and leveraging of abusive concepts

I wonder why it is assumed that BL is consumed without critical thinking. It is true that BL, especially MAME's BL, are not didactic. TharnType is a BL with odo (royal road) narrative progression. It is not one of the sweet BL that GMMTV produces. Due to a general lack of BL literacies, there are off-the-mark expectations associated with BL, particularly Thai BL. Hence, odo BL seems to violate a lot of these misguided expectations.

TharnType is a well-done odo BL, in my opinion. "Leveraging of abusive concepts" is not a failure but a feature.

When it comes to depiction of abuse, there are those who think that it always gives the wrong message. There are variety in opinions on what is the right way to go about it. BL being an accommodating genre has space for all sorts of treatment. Even in live action, there is good variety in terms of how the theme is treated. But nothing is everyone’s cup of tea. This being the case it is understandable if someone like how MAME handles abuse, just as it is understandable if someone doesn't.

Assuming that fans don't engage critically with the theme and are mindlessly consuming it, have the implication of infantilizing the audience - as though they are without faculties of discretion and are incapable of making judgements. It also has the added implication of demonizing all media concerning queer people that deals with abuse. If MAME’s approach is deemed “unsafe” for queer population, based on that judgement, where does BL and gei comi that offer erotic treatment of abuse fall? What about queer people producing and consuming them?

That brings me to the points @nieves-de-sugui has raised.

4. how much all of these tropes where used (and still are). I believe that when things are made for tv they should take all the things you mentioned into account more than they do.

I believe that makers of live action queer content are very cautious. Thanks to that we are yet to get live action adaptation of any gei comi.

I have seen mainstream media ignore Gengoroh Tagame (probably the most popular gay mangaka creating content aimed at androphilic men) and his works for years in spite of his tangible influence on East Asian queer men. And then suddenly creating a live action adaptation of his all-ages manga My Brother’s Husband.

Who will dare to adapt his works Gunji or Fisherman’s Lodge or Pride? How can we show rape, trauma and taboo involving queer people on screen? What message will it give to the queer population? To the non-queer population?

A scene from Fisherman’s Lodge. Image courtesy of @finalatomicbuster.

If MAME was not involved in producing her BL, it is doubtful if it would have ever happened the way it did. Almost all BL adaptation is a censored adaptation, with notable exceptions like Sei no Gekiyaku. Recently, 25 Ji, Akasaka de (2024) removed complicated sexual content (including a dub-con episode) from the volume 1 of the manga, which was critical to the story and the couple’s development, in adaptation. Sukiyanen Kedo Do Yaro ka (2024) went as far as removing the more sexual second couple from the live action adaptation probably because makers thought it was better not to go anywhere near cruelty.

The first ever anime adaptation of a gei comi, Shin Yaranai ka based on Junichi Yamakawa's Kuso Miso Technique, is *sigh* disappointing to say the least.

I wanted to quickly mention What Did You Eat Yesterday yaoi version since @waitmyturtles mentioned the series.

5. What Did You Eat Yesterday

I want to highlight that What Did You Eat Yesterday was not a BL in publication. It was published in Morning, a conservative magazine for middle-aged men. This is what got a live action adaptation.

Fumi Yoshinaga has created a proper BL doujin series that includes content that couldn't be part of publication in Morning.

Here are some panels from the two latest volumes of the yaoi. I wonder if audience would have had the same impression of the show if they had incorporated the doujin bits too.

6. One piece of the puzzle that's missing here is Thai rape culture that blankets all of their society.

This is an important point @yousaygoodbyeandisay raised and it applies not just to Thailand.

Sexual assault as a theme in BL, handled in a myriad of ways, has been the case since the inception of the genre. I have discussed the history in the context of Japan here.

It was during the publication of JUNE magazine that the importance of depiction of sexual assault in BL became clear to the editor through response letters from readers.

June is a place of therapistic rehabilitation for those women who had experiences of mental and physical abuses as a female. Mr. Sagawa said that he cannot ignore that there are not a few readers who had such experiences during their childhood.

source

MAME studied BL and its production academically (you can find her research output by searching her name: อรวรรณ วิชญวรรณกุล) before she entered live action production. She not only know what she is writing/creating but also is willing to deal with difficult themes without taking sweet, fable-like route.

Now onto the points @mikuni14 raised.

7. my shock seeing so much SA related stuff (the show covered just about every problematic sex thing there is, and finally forgave the heinous criminal instead of putting him in jail. I don't know how MAME can create for example AePete and also somany vile things

For those who don’t know, MAME is a unique Thai BL creator. Thai BL creators on average lack BL literacies for various reasons. MAME is one of the exceptions. This is because:

she is a BL author & hence, one of the creators of BL literacies

she studied BL and its production academically [you can find her research output by searching her name: อรวรรณ วิชญวรรณกุล]

then she started producing live action BL

In an industry which is lacking in BL literacies, what she brings to the table is fu-culture (BL fan culture) in all its glory. Unfortunately, the live action audience who are fans of sweet BL, have a hard time adjusting.

Here are some typical narrative progressions for a (Japanese) BL:

あまあま – sweet

ユニーク – unique

シリアス – serious

邪道 – evil road (jadō)

王道 - royal road (odo)

Any theme/one-line plot can choose to take any of these narrative progressions. Moreover, Thai BL usually originates online which allows for innovation.

MAME employs different narrative progressions for different ships. AePete follows the typical sweet BL progression. KengklaTechno follows jado and TharnType odo.

TarTum is a sweet BL, complicated by them being step-brothers. While their pairing is barely on odo, Tum as a character has a complicated odo progression within their ship.

Since TharnType is an odo BL all wrong-doings are not punished. Take for example KinnPorsche, another odo BL, where the ending can’t be 'organized crime gets the main characters in jail'. In odo BL involving crime, most of the victims are usually cannon fodders. So, characters are not bothered much by the crime. But in MAME's universe, Tum is an important character, someone designed to make audience root for him. Hence the audience can’t dismiss the crimes against him. It is not wrong to want the narrative to have Lhong jailed. If TharnType was a sweet BL, it would have gone there.

8. selective memory

Selective memory is indicative of preferences and it helps to fine tune BL consumption. MAME's storytelling incorporates diverse elements. Those who enjoy her works also might find that there something or the other that isn't to their taste. This is an important part of BL literacies.

I enjoy dangerous characterizations over subdued ones and prefer a meriba more than a happy ending. While there are plenty of BL media with those, they are super rare in live action. So, I appreciate MAME for taking into account fans who want something different from sweet BL.

Here are the points @bengiyo raised:

9. What Did You Eat Yesterday v/s Old Fashion Cupcake

This has nothing to do with MAME but has to do with BL literacies more generally. Old Fashion Cupcake is more appealing to BL fans because it is a BL and hence not sanitized to continue run on a conservative magazine. So, it permeates moe (affect). Moreover, creators of Old Fashion Cupcake are better informed than creators of What Did You Eat Yesterday in terms of BL literacies. So, the direction and acting works better in the former than the latter.

9. The Effect feeling like the first huge volley leveled at BL from within the genre.

I am always amazed at the takes on the Effect. Somehow it is assumed to be a critique of BL genre. That's not the case. The Effect is a proper jado BL.

What audience are picking up on is the 'I can do it better' spirit that motivates a lot of BL creation. It is natural for audience to feel like the depiction of complex themes, such as sexual abuse, bullying, delinquency, identity theft, murder, infidelity, pregnancy, etc. are not dealt with well. Creating BL that fits one's taste better is one way authors and artists go about addressing the issue. That is how we end up with same theme dealt with in numerous ways. When that expands, we end up with sub-genres and BL categories.

Jado BL are rare, particularly in Thai BL.

It is difficult to sell BL with jado and other narrative progressions. It becomes even more difficult to sell branded pairings when the characters they play are not impeccable. It is unlikely that actors playing bad guys can sell products for advertisers. (Imagine the characters from The Effect being in ads together!) It is even more unlikely that fans would go broke behind wicked characters and would want to attend fan-meetings and concerts featuring them in some way.

This is also so as not to trouble the average audience’s worldview (世界観) and is clearly a low effort and low skill (in terms of BL literacies) approach. But since a lot of audience don’t appreciate villain-like characterization, it is clearly low risk, no chance of a backlash from angry audience and the best method for assured money making.

@respectthepetty has also flagged the next issue:

10. History3: Make Our Days Count.

Gays were being buried and put in prison in Taiwanese BLs in the same year it legalized marriage equality.

There is a lot of ethnocentrism in the hate that MODC gets, apart from lack of BL literacies. While I understand where that take is coming from given American media history in the context of Hayes code, AIDS crisis, etc., I wish media from elsewhere would be looked at independently.

Queer narratives everywhere have their own over-used tropes and historical issues. Malayalam media, for example, has the issue of having one of two queer characters having varathan vibe (Rosy in Ponnaranjanam, Kiran in Sancharram, Antony's boyfriend in Mumbai Police, Kiran in My Life Partner, etc.) that makes them look odd in Kerala's rurban landscape. Even Kaathaloram played into this trope. The problem is that it perpetuates the belief that queerness is an import of sorts.

Mindless application of media critique learned from the west leads to the brushing aside of pertinent issues with media of the region in favor of finding legitimacy via commonality with the west. That way we end up with crits accusing Moothon of employing bury the gay trope while ignoring that:

Moothon is a gangster action flick like Kammattippaadam

It is rare for romances irrespective of the gender of the main characters and genre of the movie to have happy ending in Malayalam. In fact, almost all great love stories in Malayalam movies are tragedies. This is unlike in Hollywood where heterosexual romances usually get happy endings.

more importantly, every queer character, including Latheef, is infused with varathan vibe.

Taiwanese BL has issues worth exploring. Issues of their own media - not varathan queer trope from Malayalam media or bury your gay trope from American media.

MODC was an dealing with well-established BL tropes (like any other show in the History franchise). It explored bereavement (a tribute to Lan Yu, first ever danmei live action adaptation) and substitute lover trope.

The series introduced a doppelgänger of Yu XiGu (Xiang HaoTing’s white moonlight), a perfect candidate for substitute lover trope. But instead of pursuing it, they subverted the trope.

History franchise, which was build to grow BL and BL literacy in Taiwan, ended up victim to prejudice since it failed to measure up to foreign standards. MODC offered something rare. The audience didn't appreciate it. They dismissed it for not measuring up to expectations colored by experiences which danmei is not connected with for historical reasons.

By that standard, would tongzhi literature from Taiwan too have to make amends for sins of the west towards its queers? Imagine stripping of death as a theme from tongzhi author Chiang-Sheng Kuo's works! Then there is also difference in how death is perceived in different societies.

Why must BL be arm-twisted to fit into norms from elsewhere and correct the wrongs of someone else?

11. BL profit off LGBT community

This is really interesting. There are many questions that I can think of that is linked to this take:

Is BL really profitable? Short answer is no. Long answer here.

Is it really LGBT community that BL profits off?

Probably not. It is moe that BL sells. That imo, is the main difference between BL and other queer genres.

Anyway, BL predates LGBT acronym. It predates de-pathologization of homosexuality in many BL creating regions. Fu-people were creating BL before mainstream media started representing queer people in media. Fu-people battled state and its censors everywhere along with queer people. Live action BL surely is commercialized. But that is capitalism reaping the dividends of decades of fu-people's labor of love.

@he-is-lightning-in-a-bottle raised the following point.

12. 2019 saw significant increase in quantity and quality of BL. Since then, live actions smoothed out the rougher edges of the source material (like what happened with Kinnporsche and Love in the Air).

While I understand the rational behind toning down dangerous characterization to appeal to the largest audience, I think that kind of censorship for commercialization limits potential of the genre. The impact is most visible in case of GMMTV BL such as Only Friend (where it could neither be sweet BL nor could it embark properly on jado).

Compare it with adaptation of the ero-BL Sei no Gekiyaku. It stayed true to the content and pushed the boundaries enough to bring about convergence between gay pinku cinema and BL. When BL is allowed to explore its potential freely, it not only imparts BL literacies but also makes it possible for other queer genres to gain new audience, which in turn encourages production houses to venture into different queer genres.

jjsanguine raised the following point.

13. I don't even hate toxic characters or plotlines, actually I love them. But like even if the characters don't know they're doing it, the show should. And it really really doesn't. And neither do the fans. Kind of alarming.

This is in relation to Lhong and San.

Lhong is a yandere in a odo BL. (for detailed discussion see Part 3) It is a matter of the world view and less about show's self-awareness (which I believe it has). If TharnType was an jado BL, Tharn could have ended up with Lhong and Type would be the stalking horse.

@jjsanguine later commented about how Lhong felt "goofy" by way of his over-the-top actions which made the show's convictions questionable.

San and Tharn's relationship was, to an extend, the most realistically depicted. I remember starting to learn about Thai queerness and realizing that a lot of elements in their relationship reads like ethnography. Consider for example Tharn being only fourteen at the time of sexual debut and San being older. This is not too different from the average age of sexual debut in Thailand. Despite it being a compoundable offense, average age of sexual debut is declining. Tharn's discovery of what he likes and dislikes and shedding cuteness (which San comments about) and adopting manliness (which Techno comments about) too is in line with what is observed among urban queer youth. Contrast this with Sky in Love in the Air whose sexual debut and exploitation are tied to his migration to urban landscape. Sky's backstory too read like ethnography and his vulnerability a reflection of the many others' in his society.

@absolutebl raised the following points:

14. Rape - as plot device - doesn't make good stories - lazy & bad writing: Feminist critique and modern narrative analysis.

Feminist and queer BL scholars from Akiko Mizoguchi to James Welker have discussed rape as a plot device in BL. Since experts have written plenty, I'll spare my effort discussing this misconception.

15. rape is an act of sexuality (or worse, sexy), it is NOT - it is an act of violence. But that is only the start to the way it’s chronically mishandled, especially in commercial fiction (of which romance makes the largest percentage). 

Akiko Mizoguchi's two decade of work have addressed this in relation to Japanese BL which I feel holds true for BL more generally. Moreover, BL is not a romance sub-genre. BL is a genre in itself. A lot of BL is romance. There is enough overlap between those genres to give the impression that BL is a romance sub-genre. But there are plenty of other works too. Like One Room Angel and Social Reform Season. Similarly, BL is not a porn sub-genre. A lot of BL is porn. But come on!

16. [MAME] produces consistent highly-profitable narratives by-and-about queer folks but utterly disingenuous to the queer experience and that defines exploitation in the ET industry... Right, just adding that yes BL does not represent (in any way) the reality of being queer in any of these countries.

I have already discussed how MAME's works are intersectional reflections of queer experience. BL has been reflecting different queer experiences in Japan even before the term boys' love emerged. But narrow, ethnocentric ideas of queerness doesn't lend itself to honest understanding of other forms and representation. Consider characters being addressed as เมีย ‘wife’. It is a Thai queer practice. One can always dismiss that since it sounds heterosexist in the culture one comes from as absolutebl does in this post. That, imo, is 'disingenuous to the queer experience' of Thai people.

The question is what are westerners missing in their own countries' queer media that they feel they must just judge everything with no care for the cultures and people producing content for themselves? Seriously, what have the westernization done to some in the audience that they emerge so desperate for queer content that they watch BL yet remain blind to the cultures (fu-culture in particular) that produce them and splooge vitriolic ethnocentrism?

-

That concludes this discourse series. I want to sincerely thank everyone who contributed to and inspired this 🙏.

Other parts: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3

[ranchthoughts]

Happy marriage equality Thailand! 🌈

A few months ago, @colourme-feral came to me with the idea of cataloguing as many same-sex Thai QL proposals and weddings as we could. And today, to celebrate the bill passing the Senate (and the first post-bill-passing proposal and wedding), I'd like to share with you all our findings! Even though same-sex marriage has not been legal in Thailand until this year (hopefully things will be official in the fall), there have been quite a few same-sex proposals and weddings in Thai QLs throughout the years.

Big thank you to everyone who assisted on this project in some capacity (@airenyah, @bengiyo, @blmpff, @chickenstrangers, @dribs-and-drabbles, @nieves-de-sugui, @twig-tea, @waitmyturtles, @williamrikers) plus all the gif and fanvid makers whose work was instrumental in helping us double check everything (particular shout out to these gifsets by @apathetic-tortoise (1, 2) and this one by @gunsatthaphan).

🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈

We found 28 Thai QL shows which featured at least one same-sex proposal (the blue list below) and 15 Thai QL shows which featured at least one same-sex wedding (the green list below).

I was pretty strict with what counted as a proposal or a wedding for the purposes of this project. For example, characters who we know are married but whose wedding we don’t see aren’t counted (like Laws of Attraction’s Maya and Rose, or the unnamed Force and Book characters shown in a “Just Married” car in Vice Versa). There are many shows where there is a ring or someone gets down on one knee but the question is not exactly “popped” (Khun Chai, Star In My Mind Our Skyy 2, etc.), and there are even more shows characters talk at length about commitment and being together forever but there were no mentions of marriage or other details (like rings, etc.) that would specifically suggest it was a proposal (A Boss and a Babe, Ai Long Nhai, Be My Favourite, Cupid's Last Wish, Dark Blue Kiss, Something In My Room, Star in My Mind, Still 2gether, Until We Meet Again, 3 Will Be Free, etc.). Some of these moments might have been intended as a declaration of intent to marry by the characters and the show runners, but they weren’t conclusive enough to be included on this list. Furthermore, I think it’s interesting to see how many shows were, for lack of a better word, explicit in their discussion or portrayal of same-sex marriage (having the characters use the word marriage, showing weddings, etc.), despite being from a time before such a thing was legally possible. 

Note: I've listed the shows with the year they started airing for ease, even though some of them did finish airing in another year.

(see alt text for the full lists)

The Quick Facts

The first proposal and the first wedding in our data set both happened in Grey Rainbow episode 4, which aired on May 7, 2016. (though this is not exactly an auspicious wedding to start with, as those who know know)

12 shows featured at least one proposal and one wedding (Cherry Magic, GAP the Series, Grey Rainbow, Laws of Attraction, Love Syndrome 3, My Secret Love, Naughty Babe, Never Let Me Go, Tharntype Special: The Wedding Day, Two Worlds, Wedding Plan, and the Wedding Plan Special). 

4 shows feature two same-sex proposals (Cherry Magic, Love Syndrome 3, My Secret Love, and Two Worlds). All these shows also feature a same-sex wedding.

None of the shows in our sample had two same-sex weddings.

The Data Over Time

As you can see, generally same-sex proposals and weddings have become more common in Thai QLs over time, though of course there are more Thai Qls being produced now than in the earlier days.

Note: I'm only looking at shows which aired before the marriage equality bill passed the Senate, so the 2024 data does not include Wandee Goodday or OMG! Vampire. It will be interesting to see if and how the number of same-sex proposals and weddings in Thai QLs increases through 2024 and beyond now that it will become a legal reality.

It is also interesting to consider the production companies behind the shows in our sample. This sample includes 7 GMM shows and 5 Mandee/Domundi shows, plus 1-3 series each from other production companies like Idol Factory, MeMindY, Studio Wabi Sabi, Copy A Bangkok, Jinloe Media Work, TV Thunder, and M Flow Entertainment. In other words, GMM shows make up roughly 23% of the sample, Mandee/Domundi shows are another 16%, and other production companies comprise about 61% of the sample.

Main Couples vs Side Couples

There are 28 shows with proposals in the sample but 32 proposals, because four shows have two proposals each. 26 of these 32 proposals (81%) are between the main characters and 6 of them (19%) are between side characters.

Of the 15 weddings in the sample, 12 (80%) are between main couples and 3 (20%) are between side couples.

For interest's sake, I also broke this down for GMM and Mandee/Domundi. GMM has 7 proposals in 6 shows, with 5 main couples and 2 side couples popping the question; and 3 weddings (across 3 shows), in which 2 side couples and 1 main couple got married. Mandee/Domundi has 5 proposals in 4 shows, all between main couples, and 3 weddings (across 3 shows), also all featuring main couples.

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And now here we are, after the bill has passed the Senate. Congratulations to the Thai queer community, and the happy couples Oyei and Cher from Wandee Goodday and Sen and Run from OMG! Vampire who are the first Thai QL couples to propose and to have a wedding (respectively) after Thailand's marriage equality bill passed the Senate! (The bill passed the Senate on June 18, 2024, and episode 8 of Wandee Goodday aired 4 days later on June 22, followed by episode 6 of OMG! Vampire on June 23.)

I can’t wait to see more same-sex engagements and weddings in Thai shows as we move forward.

[respectthepetty]

Pride Petty Watch

Long story short, I owe the BL gods, so I'll be watching TWO series from my Petty List during the month of June. This list includes shows I haven't watched for purely petty reasons, so I'm asking the crowd to pick the two shows I will watch from all the MAME series, some censored Chinese bromances, a few sexual tension-filled Korean bromances, and one wild card.

I'm making my first ever poll, so whichever two series get the highest numbers will be the two I watch. And for all the kind people in the crowd, this is not the time to think about me. Pick your favorite. And for all the people who I annoy on the daily with my wild ass takes that piss you off, pick TharnType. But there is a possibility of a secret thirteenth option that would hurt me much worse . . .

The petty ass reasons are below the poll.

Disclaimer: If you're going to read the petty ass reasons, I need you to understand these are PETTY ASS REASONS, so don't try to hit me with 2,000 words about why me not watching censored bromances is a problem or why me not liking your fave hurts your feelings. Nah. Pick a show!

MAME

Love By Chance

This show came out at the end of 2018, and I watched the first episode, maybe first two, and thought it was boring. Then, in 2019, I saw a GIF of the locker scene, so I recommitted. I made it past the first episode just when the PerthSaint drama started spilling out everywhere, so I chucked the deuces and haven't returned since.

TharnType

For some reason, I couldn't find the first episode when it aired. Then, I found out how the first episode ended. Then, I found out about Type's past. Then, I just kept finding out more awful stuff until eventually the MewGulf shit finally hit the fan, and I was still reeling from the PerthSaint drama (and the emerging ZeeSaint chaos). At this point, I've built this show up so much that I'm afraid to see what it is actually about.

Don't Say No

A story of another GIF of a locker room scene sucking me in! After the first two MAME pairs blew up, I believed her shows were cursed, so I opted out of watching this one even though I thought it would be the one to vibe with me the most. But the biggest reason was because the main characters came from TharnType, so I felt like I would have to watch TharnType to understand this show, which was a big hell nah.

Love in the Air

I watched this through mutuals on my dash, so I feel like I did watch it. It is also the highest rated MAME series, so I had faith in it. However, when I found out about Sky's past, TharnType's ghost popped back up, and I realized this demon of a show is gonna haunt me in every MAME series.

The Wedding Plan

Y'all hated one of the leads so much while it was airing that I now hate him, and I don't think I can let that go, so I'm coming in with pre-hate and TharnType's ghost, but on top of that, some of y'all said it was boring. But what is boring in a MAME series? Consent? Not kidnapping someone? I never got answers, so I'm very conflicted about this show.

Censored Chinese

The Untamed

It's color coded, but FIFTY FUCKING EPISODES! What is this shit? Grey's Anatomy? The fuck! Second, once China pulled Addicted, I was holding grudges for life because it crossed from entertainment censorship into real-world oppression, so I could not bring myself to support media from a country that openly discriminates against the queers when I live in America where our highest court is just one Supreme Court Justice away from making us all live in the damn Mojo Dojo Casa House.

Word of Honor

It's color coded, but THIRTY-SIX FUCKING EPISODES! What is this shit? Supernatural?! The fuck! Second, I don't know the difference between this and The Untamed. Both are color-coded, one of them has a lot of uncles (?), one of them has awful facial hair, and they all have pretty outfits. Every time someone makes a reference about these shows, I just nod the same way I do when people mention Star Wars because none of it makes sense.

Guardian

I spent two years believing Killer and Healer was Guardian. I haven't watched either, but I thought they were the same show. Honestly, if this show wins, I might just watch Killer and Healer because I will forget they are not the same show. Don't they both solve cases? And because it's China, past lives must be involved, no? I'm looking at their MDLs as I write this, and I'm still not convinced they are different.

Stay with Me

It's color coded, but I know how it ends, and word on the street is that IS the ending since a second season seems unlikely. China couldn't just let me be hurt over Addicted, the original. No. Gotta hurt me again with Addicted, the remake. Rude af.

The Spirealm

First off, SEVENTY-EIGHT FUCKING EPISODES! What is this shit? Law & Order: SVU?! The fuck! I know how this ends, and it ain't happy! I don't care how people are trying to spin it, so to sit through SEVENTY-EIGHT DAMN EPISODES just for that ending already has me irate. And don't try telling me Viki combined episodes so it's only thirty-four. That's still a lot. However, everybody who has watched it says it's phenomenal, so is the pain worth it or are these people all lying so they convince themselves it was worth it?

Korean Bromance

Beyond Evil

With most Korean dramas, I feel like I missing something important. Like some part of the story does not click with me and I stay lost for the rest of the show. I suck it up for the queers, but the not-queers-but-it-is-queer shows . . . nah, and especially one about cops . . . (-_-). Also, The Worst of Evil just showed, and it was another reminder that I need these cops to quit their jobs and just screw each other. Embrace "Be Gay. Do Crime"

The Devil Judge

I know enough about Kpop to know GOT7 would not let one of its members kiss a man in this show. I looked at those GIFs of Jeff Satur and Jackson Wang on their show knowing damn well that if Wang got too close to Satur, an entire management team would have ascended from hell and kidnapped both of them, so the promo for this show was so wild because it felt queerbait-adjacent, and I was salty about it.

WILD CARD!

This option will be automatically unlocked IF this stupid little poll gets 216 votes, so I have high hopes this will not happen since I ain't that popular and I hate this wild card which is . . .

SOTUS

This show is my original TharnType. It came out in 2016. I watched it live. I watched the sequel. I remember neither. New was in it? Off was in it?! WHAT?! I have no memory of this show except Krist wiping his mouth, and I have carried that with me for eight damn years. I loved Be My Favorite, so I thought I moved past whatever strange grudge I was holding against this man who doesn't know I exist nor care, but then I saw that trailer for The Ex-Morning, and unlike Elsa, I can't let this shit go, so I'm willing to play Jumanji and go back into the jungle to finish this once and all.

So what it's gonna be, mi gente. Which demons am I facing for Pride and what shows do I get to stay petty about? Help me decide!

[waitmyturtles]

I am here to complain a bit about Jack & Joker (and apologies, because I'm going to make an inevitable comparison to Kidnap at the end of this post), so this post might be triggering for you (consider yourself warned, some of y'all don't read TWs!) But if you wanna hear some constructive criticism about director Tee Bundit's intriguing storytelling choices for this show, then come with me....

... because there's a lot about this show thematically that would usually sit right with me, namely its heavy focus on family.

Thanks to @veemark, we got a deep-dive into the wedding symbolism of last week's Lunar New Year celebration. I can feel that! Joke is clearly deeply touched to finally be a part of a family -- which is ever more meaningful, considering his brutal rejection by his own blood father in this week's episode.

And there are so, so many more family (and wedding) themes (in non-chronological order):

1) Tattoo's mom taking in both Tattoo and Hoy 2) Boss rejecting his own son, Arun, and adopting Jack (to then use Jack for his own financial gain) 3) The community that Ah Mah has built around her, from taking Joke in, to the little girls she hosts 4) Jack losing his parents and being raised by Ah Mah 5) Arun finding new family with Tattoo 6) Understanding how family ties runs the criminal underground of Bangkok 7) All of the ring symbolism, from Jack getting his parents' ring back, to rings being used as power symbols for the aforementioned criminal underground -- a theme I LOVE, actually, because strength in numbers in society always means more power for those individuals, including for couples that get married (INCLUDING FOR COUPLES THAT WILL BE ABLE TO LEGALLY WED IN JANUARY IN THAILAND AND WILL BE ELIGIBLE FOR SPOUSAL PRIVILEGES, EEEE!)

So many family themes going on in this show. I love it! I love the indication that when Jack and Joke first met years ago, that there could have been a frisson of potential family between them, two guys meeting at a bar and connecting.

AND, I ALSO love the themes of family fucking each other over. Because families aren't perfect! Not by a long shot. Families can truly suck towards each other. Boss to Arun. Save (FUCKING SAVE, YOU DICK) to Jack. Joke's dad to Joke, all of his life. If we're talking potential family from back in the past, then of course -- Joke fucking over Jack, the issue that started this series.

What's not working for me in this series, though, is that somewhere along this trajectory, director Tee Bundit got too caught up in liberally sprinkling these otherwise excellent themes throughout the show (really, much to my joy, because I otherwise love these themes) without offering emotional build or context to our two main characters. There are other connectivity issues to this show, but this is my main gripe.

Now, I've had an up-and-down relaysh with Tee Bundit's work. I hated TharnType, I HATED Step By Step, I ADORED Lovely Writer, I LOVED I Feel You Linger In The Air. We're teetering on Step By Step-territory here in Jack & Joker by the way that Tee seems to be gunshy about giving romance -- which needs to be the cornerstone of an ostensible romance BL -- time to breathe and develop.

We have jumped from an inferred wedding banquet last week, to tired spousey-spousey dinners this week, with hubs ripping off his tie and apologizing to his househubs about not finishing his plate.

Not to say I need to see the boing! I don't need boing to contextualize romance. What I need to contextualize romance is to see these two falling in love, before their marriage got tired and problematic!

Like. I was watching these dinner scenes, and I'm... trying to parse what's happening at the table. Jack is getting screwed time and time again by poverty. It's brutal. Is Tee saying here that love is an impossibility in the context of poverty?

(I don't know that Jack says that about love, per se, in his monologue to Rose while they're with the village children, but he does talk about the inability of impoverished people to truly dream, so maybe that's the correlation?)

And then, because Jack must make his choice to serve Boss and earn money for his grandmother's treatment -- he has to let go of Joke. But.... they were never together anyway! Right?! (See @lurkingshan here for the wise comment on noble idiocy.)

I'm not bought into the closeness that I'm supposed to assume from Jack and Joke -- because we haven't been taken there yet. I haven't seen that closeness develop. I've seen Joke make it up to Jack for Joke's previous transgressions. But I haven't seen Jack respond to that emotionally, bodily, with heart, as a narrative would otherwise convey romance successfully in a script.

Unless this is an allegory meant to convey that poverty prevents people from falling in love. Is that the message? Because... dang, wtf. That's a hell of a message.

It's a brutal message, if that's the message, commenting on the assumed strength of the criminally powerful of Bangkok to squeeze out every last dream of those who are in lifelong debt to crime lords.

It's a very Tee Bundit message, honestly, as well. I can see him driving this show right towards this message that hopelessness is absolutely a reality for the thousands of impoverished Thais who will die in debt.

But this is a YinWar show -- and, unless we are going to be MASSIVELY SURPRISED, which I don't think we are, the car's gotta drive towards romance at some point. These guys aren't even together, and we're headed towards divorce court. We've missed some significant emotional beats along the way, and my eyebrows are furrowed as to how Tee Bundit will three-point-turn his way out of this traffic jam.

(What's my inevitable comparison to Kidnap? Kidnap is the other crime-y show of this autumn season, and its narrative has jumped all over the place. It's SO MESSY. AND, arguably, Min's and Q's romance has been driving at 90 mph since the start of the show. We've had MORE romance than plot, the opposite issue of J&J. But Min showed his true colors by 4/4 of episode 1. We knew the road we were driving on with our two mains! And there arguably hasn't been jumping of the romance narrative, although we got a pretty fast break-up in last week's episode. Kidnap is messy AF, but its intentions are clear. I'm not getting that clarity -- as cheesy as it's been in Kidnap -- in J&J.)

[absolutebl]

There was a surprising amount of sex in Be Mine Superstar! I really wasn’t expecting it…. Similarly, Love Syndrome had a LOT less sex than I was promised by the trailer…

Are there any BLs that had either many more or many less NC scenes than you were expecting before you started watching them?

BLs that exceeded (or underperformed) sexy expectations

Interesting question. So far, not that many Thai BLs. But I think that's just because I pay attention to the pairs and the actors in Thai stuff, and you sort of get a feel for what they will (and won't) take on. So in your examples: I know JaFirst did high heat so I expected the producers to lean into that advantage as part of BMSS because, frankly, it didn't have much else going for it.

I haven't watched Love Syndrome III yet but knowing Frank I wouldn't expect it to go super high heat in terms of actual physical contact.

I guess the ones that have surprised me are mostly out of Thailand are pulps that I knew nothing about going in. Let me see...

Thai BL that ended up being way hornier/better than I expected

Secret Crush On You - such a weird show but BillySeng brought IT, whatever IT is, they got it.

Love in Translation - yeah, what happened in that sauce isle boys? Very saucy. Whatever pun, more please.

2 Moons 3 - about on par with ForthBeam from 2 Moons 2 but nothing else in the previous 2 series would lead one to expect the horny we got in this show on the main.

Second Chance - yeah it was a throw away pulp and this studio is hit or miss on chemistry but it had one of the best kisses of its year.

Big Dragon - I don't know what I expected form the trailers, but it wasn't as good as it turned out to be. Don't get me wrong, the rest of the show is naff, but the chemistry/heat levels are scorching.

Ghost Host, Ghost House - generally the horror stuff doesn't do chemistry well, but these two have some of the best chemistry EVER put into a pulp. I really hope we see more of them.

KinnPorsche - It's no secret I'm not as wild about this show as most, but I did think the VegasPete stuff was unexpectedly killer in all ways.

Oh My Sunshine Night - yeah it was exactly what one expects from OhmFluke but THE SIDES!!!! I mean... WHAT? I'm not mad, just pleasantly surprised.

TharnType - Okay but remember at the time what we'd had from Mame was LBC (relatively low heat) and other Thai stuff I was familiar with at the time was Make It Right, Love Sick, SOTUS, and UWMA. TT was way higher heat that I'd seen from Thailand before. And then...

Why R U? - ZeeSaint's "away trip to the beach" full on sex scenes plus repping for verse was just crazy at the time. Especially since Saint played Pete in LBC before this and Zee was new to BL. Add that to the very odd and disjointed (and miss-matched) SaifahZon counter story and WRU? was this insane all over the place viewing experience, including the heat levels. There was this "what will they do next?" kind of tension over the production. Not the story (because who was following that?) but the PRODUCTION. At the time, it was welcome, but truly bonkers. What a way to drive narrative tension... pure high heat chaos.

Thai BLs where chemistry failed meet my (relatively low) expectations

My Ride - honestly, if they had just gotten the kiss right this might even have earned a 10/10 from me

Unforgotten Night - ugh

Bite Me - double ugh

Friend Forever - I know I'm the only person who watched this but why could we not have gotten ONE kiss from the leads?

Nitman - studies have since shown us it is entirely not Noh's fault... see Oh My Sunshine Night

Wedding Plan - the leads were fine, but Mame usually fails me in every way except chemistry, so "fine" is not up to her usual standards. Those standards being predominantly "they hawt together" and nothing else. There wasn't even a side dish couple to pick up the slack noodle... so to speak.

Korean BL

For most of 2022 I was consistently getting surprised by Korean BL's chemsitry when it was good but now I've settled into half expecting it yet still being delighted when it happens and is well done.

I do think Semantic Error was a bit of a seed change for them.

The problem is, now we know they can do it, we are starting to get pissed when it's bad or entirely absent.

Taiwanese BL

Taiwan is the opposite of Korea.

I expect good chemistry and almost always always get it. I struggle to think of a time when they've disappointed me (in this arena). Maybe a few? But I tend to cut Taiwan more slack than other countries because they have so few BLs and they are generally so consistent. If they falter at all, at least the side couple will pick up the slack.

Japanese BL

I have no expectations of Japan. Life as a BL fan is a lot easier that way.

(source)