#stannis and renly wanted war to sit the throne

[queenvhagar]

Something I've realized about the women characters of HOTD is that they seem to be aware of modern politics and sensibilities in that they seem to be detached from their time and place in a sense.

Realistically, women in these worlds would want the same thing men do in the situations that they're in. When their families' lives are threatened, when their power is threatened, they are willing to go to war. They want vengeance and justice. They want their enemies to pay for what they've done. They want power and security for themselves and those dear to them. Some have hard power, like dragons or skill with the blade, that they can and will use to achieve their goals. In ASOIAF this is Daenerys, Brienne, Arya, and more. Some have soft power, like charisma, influence, and political knowledge, that they can and will achieve their goals. This is Cersei, Sansa, Margaery, and more. All of these tools and weapons are willingly yielded by their users to help themselves and their families to survive and to thrive.

Yet the women of HOTD seem to view these things differently. They stay stuck on the fact that men don't listen to them, instead of using the tools available to them to do anything about it and help themselves as GOT characters would. When Rhaenyra is talked over by her small council, instead of making a show of force or demonstrating her ability to lead and make competent decisions about warfare, all she does is accept what others tell her to do and then complain about it in private. When Alicent is ignored in the small council, instead of using her influence to convince her vulnerable son the king to do as she wants, she puts him down and isolates herself further. Despite the many decisions that these women could take to help themselves or act in any way that could help their situation, they are stagnant and passive.

It's almost as if these women are stuck on their victim status, in that they view themselves as victims in ways that the GOT women have either long accepted as truth or have been socialized to view differently. The women of HOTD know it's not okay for women to be talked down to, they know it's not okay for women to be interrupted or ignored, they know it's bad that nobody takes them seriously, whereas this is barely a thought of the GOT women, for whom it is a part of the world they've already adapted to and they know how to navigate around. Somehow it seems like the HOTD women are consistently shocked and surprised into inaction by the very fact that sexism exists in their world, despite the fact it's been there their whole life and they've never known differently.

This is what I mean when I say that the women of HOTD feel as though they're separate from their time and place. It's as if they exist outside the narrative, outside of this time and place somehow, based on the decisions they make and the way they behave. Instead of acting as others would in their time and place, they frequently seem as if they are aware of modern sensibilities and politics and it's these things that guide their thoughts, decisions, or dialogue. Their awareness of this prevents them from going to war when they have good reason to want to, and realistically any woman in this universe would willingly go to war, and it makes them say certain things that seems almost out of place in the context of the time and place that sound at times as if the writers are using them as a mouthpiece.

Yet the men of the story behave more faithfully to time and place. They desire action, they desire vengeance, they are allowed to feel angry for themselves and they are allowed to want power for the sake of it. They get to be more fully fleshed out in their motivations and personalities. They're believably a part of this time and place. The men behave no differently than the men of GOT save differences in character and context, but the women are so distinctly different from the women of GOT in terms of how they're allowed to feel, speak, and act.

[atopvisenyashill]

What if Stannis was the eldest instead of Robert?

This one kinda stumps me tbh. On the one hand, Ned & Stannis are far too similar to ever grow particularly friendly but on the other hand, Stannis isn’t gonna sleep around on Lyanna (he’s barely gonna sleep with her lmao) so Lyanna is probably not itching to leave that betrothal? But on the other hand, Stannis is gay in a very Roman “my god i HATE women i’m gonna suck dick instead” kinda way due to the patriarchal hellhole he lives in, and I can’t imagine him approving of how wild Lyanna is, and what 15 year old girl wants to be married to a dubiously heterosexual stick in the mud? on the other hand, stannis reiterates at several points that shireen is his heir, and he makes it a point to offer for renly to be his heir over shireen, meaning he believes in the andal “a daughter before an uncle” law so there is *some* hope for him?

regardless of how lyanna and ned and robert and stannis all feel, Lyanna is still going to save Howland from being picked on, enter the lists, beat some ass, and get found out by rhaegar, who will still crown her queen of love and beauty. he’s still gonna get fixated on her and since we don’t know how willing she was, it’s entirely possible that he makes off with her even if she says “well stannis is annoying but i promised.” brandon & rickard are still gonna go to the capital and demand lyanna back, and aerys will still kill everyone brutally and jon will still raise his banners and refuse to hand over ned and stannis.

in THIS situation tho - it’s called robert’s rebellion for a reason. for all his many failings as a ruler, a husband, a father, and a brother, robert was the perfect figurehead for this rebellion. he was military minded, thick as a castle wall, charming, and had distant valyrian blood. stannis has the valyrian blood and that’s about it. i think stannis is smart enough to get through the beginning of the war but we don’t know why the smallfolk decided to help robert in the battle of the bells. it could be they were just as sick of aerys as everyone else and would have helped any rebel, but just as likely it was robert HIMSELF who inspired that loyalty. even assuming they still hide stannis, is he capable of defeating rhaegar at the trident without help? that image of Robert’s warhammer coming down on Rhaegar is iconic not just for the series but for the rebellion! does ned step into the fight, to save stannis, to fight for his sister? does stannis declare his intentions towards the throne?? given him being a stickler for law, i think it’s much more likely stannis goes for a dance esque approach, and insists they crown baby aegon and have a group of trusted regents - this being the SECOND time a baby named aegon is crowned after all the adult targs have died, and the last in a long line of mad kings, even if that’s what stannis pushes for, with the momentum of the rebellion, i don’t know that the lords would be satisfied with that! robb certainly wasn’t trying to be named king but he couldn’t stop the momentum of the northern rebellion, and stannis - especially a stannis that hasn’t lost the battle of blackwater and had a come to jesus moment re: every life matters with edric storm and davos - is NOT gonna be able to unring that bell. beyond that, every other conflict has involved a targaryen claimant on both sides but stannis/robert are distantly targaryen only. too much infighting and i think that when ned marches on KL to beat tywin there, jon and hoster decide to push for a great council.

and that’s IF robert keeps mace distracted! because robert isn’t gonna sit in a siege, he’s gonna fight and mace is putting up a very low effort siege here - he doesn’t want to fight, he’s wary of picking on side too strongly, he’s purposefully trying to starve storm’s end out by sitting on his ass and sitting out the war. robert isn’t gonna wait for davos and his onions, he’s gonna try to break the tyrell host.

and honestly, even with the rebels still winning, without a king to rally behind, the political situation is looking. dire. who knows what a great council decides bc there are a lot of very proud men jockeying for power in the aftermath of the sack of KL, not to mention Rhaella crowning Viserys and birthing Dany and also, ya know, the Jon Snow Of It All. Robert’s Rebellion ends the way it does because Robert is an excellent figurehead for Jon Arryn to push onto the throne. Stannis doesn’t have the charisma and given he’s just as stubborn as Robert, I don’t think Jon is gonna be able to make him do jack shit. that leaves the rebellion and the realm at large in a precarious and weird situation, politically. do they crown a guy who inspires very little loyalty? do they crown an infant? a toddler? a woman? do they crown NED, with no claim to the iron throne, even distantly? do they call up maester aemon and ask him to sit on the throne while they figure out what the fuck they’re gonna do? do the kingdoms break back up??? without robert to lead them, and with stannis being stannis, i think it becomes more complicated. at the end of the day, if they decide their best option is stannis, he will feel duty bound to take the throne but you can bet your ASS he’s not marrying a lannister, or a tyrell, without a lot of cajoling bc he’ll see them as cowards. and who even are his options after that? lyanna is gone, elia is gone, rhaella is gone, rhaenys is gone, dany is an infant. lysa or cat wouldn’t be terrible choices but cat’s going to marry ned no matter what & i don’t think jon is gonna push for a girl he knows isn’t a virgin to be queen. they’ll want him married right away, but there really aren’t any suitable brides besides cersei and maybe a hightower or two? tricky tricky! robert is key to the rebellion working, without him, it goes sideways!

[asongoficeandthrones]

A Clash of Kings First Read - Chapter 31

(POV: Catelyn III.)

Setting: Near Storm's End.

Favorite character: Catelyn, because she was the only one with common sense. I mean, the other two major players were Stannis and Renly, and I'll develop on that later, but they were both so set in their ways that they couldn't even see that an alliance might have been the better choice... for the time being. And I liked Renly even less than Stannis, because he seemed joyful at the prospect that he'd get to battle his own brother.

MVP: Renly, I guess? He has the advantage when it comes to military might compared to Stannis, from what I can see anyway. Though his decision to go to battle against his own brother didn't sit well with me.

Things I loved/liked:

Durran and Elenei's story makes me think of Aragorn and Arwen's story (and I guess Beren and Lúthien's story too) from LotR and the Silmarillion (Tolkien), with women giving up their immortality for love. And maybe it's the romantic in me, but I kinda love that trope.

Once more, the fact that Catelyn is torn between family (I belong at Riverrun with my dying father, at Winterfell with my sons) and duty to her king ("Robb sent me south to speak for him, and speak for him I shall") and duty to the greater good (It would be no easy thing to forge a peace between these brothers, Catelyn knew, yet for the good of the realm, it must be tried). And the fact that she chooses duty in the end.

I'm sorry, but both Stannis and Renly are sassy as hell. There's Renly with "The whole of the realm denies it [that Stannis is the rightful king], brother. [...] Old men deny it with their death rattle, and unborn children deny it in their mothers' wombs. They deny it in Dorne and they deny it on the Wall. No one wants you for their king. Sorry," and Stannis with "In your bed she's like to die that way [a maid]." But there are a lot of other examples throughout their conversation.

The parallel between Ned's actions and Catelyn's.

I kinda liked Stannis in this chapter? When he's first introduced, at least. First, he doesn't bother Catelyn about her use of "Lord" instead of "King," and he also offers her condolences for Ned's death, while remaining true to himself and then saying, "though Eddard Stark was no friend to me."

Things I disliked/hated:

Renly refusing to let Catelyn go before the battle. I guess I understand his point, but it still left a sour taste in my mouth.

There's something I don't understand/am confused about. The news of the incest is news to Catelyn only, and Renly acts as if he believes it to be untrue: "Were it only true [...]." And Catelyn has a point: if it's untrue, then Joffrey is the rightful heir. And then Renly himself has a point: if it's true, then Stannis is the rightful heir. So basically, Renly himself admits that he is only in the race for the Iron Throne because he has, in his own words, "the larger army." Which I think is rather idiotic. Also, his description of himself made me cringe a little ("I have it in me to be a great king, strong yet generous, clever, just, diligent, loyal to my friends and terrible to my enemies, yet capable of forgiveness, patient-") because I can see some of it, but definitely not all of it.

The whole conversation between Stannis and Renly, because yeah, they were acting like little children fighting over the last piece of cake. And Catelyn's right: because of it, the entire kingdom is at war. If only they would unite, at least to defeat the Lannisters, like she's suggesting... It would be one less host to worry about. But they're both so stubborn. And I don't mean it in a good way. (Cat's "If you were sons of mine, I would bang your heads together and lock you in a bedchamber until you remembered that you were brothers" was hilarious though... just picturing it!).

Quotes: Catelyn's "You each name yourself king, yet the kingdom bleeds, and no one lifts a sword to defend it but my son" (I don't necessarily agree with her last words - it doesn't seem to me to be Robb's motive right now, but well, I'll move past that). I think she has a point that the Seven Kingdoms and their four kings are tearing each other apart without a care for their people.

Thoughts overall: Kinda infuriating.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

#power is a shadow on the wall. these people don't have moral convictions they are driven by their relation to power (via @daenystheedreamer)

Exactly, yeah. The bastard thing is an excuse when lords want to remove them (Rhaenyra's sons or Rhaenyra herself) from power. But when they want to get close to power, it's like... “huh what? Did somebody say something?”

Note that this is exactly the same thing as with Joffrey and Tommen -- and Myrcella for that matter -- in the main books. Stannis shouts about incest and bastards until his face turns blue, but Renly doesn't give a damn, he only wants to remove Joffrey so he can be in charge. And only the hyper-religious prisoners of war are the ones who scream about it when face to face with Joffrey:

But no sooner had that one been dragged away than a knight of solemn mien with a fiery heart on his surcoat shouted out, "Stannis is the true king! A monster sits the Iron Throne, an abomination born of incest!" "Be silent," Ser Kevan Lannister bellowed. The knight raised his voice instead. "Joffrey is the black worm eating the heart of the realm! Darkness was his father, and death his mother! Destroy him before he corrupts you all! Destroy them all, queen whore and king worm, vile dwarf and whispering spider, the false flowers. Save yourselves!" One of the gold cloaks knocked the man off his feet, but he continued to shout. "The scouring fire will come! King Stannis will return!" —ACOK, Sansa VIII

But funny that Bonifer Hasty -- good ol' "Baelor Butthole" himself -- doesn't seem to have a problem working with the Lannisters, huh. Not to mention even the High Sparrow, when more power for the Faith is offered.

And then there's Doran not caring at all about Myrcella's parentage re betrothing his son Trystane to her. You'd think it would come up once (especially considering his Targaryen plans), but weirdly no. And it doesn't even cross Arianne's mind when she's doing her queenmaker thing. Sure, there's that supposed Dornish openness towards bastards, but Arianne thinks it's Daemon Sand's bastard status why her father rejected his request for her hand, that a bastard is no fit consort for a princess of Dorne. But it is for a prince of Dorne? To marry and not just take as a paramour?

It really is interesting how much these moral standards and beliefs about abominations simply... aren't, and only exist when they need to.

“the lords of westeros would never accept rhaenyra’s BASTARDS as rulers” the lords of westeros were having a wwe smackdown over who got to marry their children to them. borros b tried to peer pressure luke into breaking his lifelong betrothal and then cregan came in with the pact of ice and fire steel chair

[pettyprocrastination]

I dunno anything about GOT lord but does she get self conscious after losing her eye? And how exactly did it happen?

Hello! So for this im gonna do a little lore dump just to explain how (at least for now) Oberyn's wife (you) lost her eye and what part she plays in the war

SO

Reader is the sister to stannis, renly, and robert baratheon. Robert was the previous king of the nine realms before he died in a hunting accident, leaving his son joffrey to inhereit the throne (but of course. joffrey is not his real son, but a bastard of his wife and her brother)

after the death of ned stark (the hand of the king) was killed because he openly spoke against joffrey's lineage to the throne, stannis and renly both rose up and claimed to be the next king. Despite being brothers, they went to war, fully accepting the fact that they'd be fighting against their family.

Initially, you want no part in it. Dorne of course does not take anybody's side in the war and stays out of it completely. You do not wish to see what is left of your family lost in some futile fight for the throne. You try to reason with your brothers that fighting eachother will do nothing, the proper answer is to unite against the lannister army, but neither will bow out.

You spend your time at sunspear with your husband, ellaria, and his children. Trying to distract yourself with sitting by the ocean and smiling when the girls offer you the shells they find in the sand.

But then Renly, your sweet little brother, is killed in his quarters.

You don't care about the throne or the family name or even the vicious bastard boy that calls himself king. All you know is that your parents are dead, Robert is dead, and Renly is dead.

Stannis is all you have left and you refuse to lose him.

So you leave Sunspear in the dead of night, find a cargo ship headed to dragonsport and join your brother's army.

You lose your eye at the battle of blackwater bay where stannis and his army (and you) march on King's Landing, the city where the king and his family resides.

The battle ends in stannis' regretful retreat back to dragonstone after losing many soldiers to the Lannister army, and you losing your eye.

I'm thinking its just something that happens within the heat of the battle. Somebody gets close enough as youre preoccupied with another enemy and suddenly a knife is slashes across your face and you scream.

You keep fighting of course. Baratheon blood boiling hot within the fight so all you feel is adrenaline and blooding dripping down your face as you cut the throat of whoever thought they were fast enough to kill you first.

You say it doesn't bother you. That "I don't concern myself with vanity nor the opinions of others on what I look like." but truthfully, it's hard. You can wrap the scarred side in lace but you still find yourself staring at your reflection when your alone and struggling to meet your husband's gaze in public. You hate that it affects you so much to the point where you cover the mirror in your room but snap if anybody asks why.

It isn't until the gentle fingers of Ellaria Sand untie the lace from your scarred face and press her lips to the raised skin that you finally stop hiding.

[sherlokiness]

Dany's Death: Melting Enemies, Wolves, and Carrion Crows

Not only is Dany gonna die horribly, but her death will benefit certain wolves and carrion crows.🤭🤭

“We had one king, then five. Now all I see are crows, squabbling over the corpse of Westeros.” He fastened the shutters. “Do not go to Old Wyk, Asha. Stay with your mother. We shall not have her long, I fear.”

“No, I’ll sit the Seastone Chair.”

“Then you are just another crow, screaming for carrion.” Rodrik sat again behind his table.

We see here that Westeros is likened to a person whose corpse will be eaten by a crow. So flesh= lands/power.

In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.

Consistent with the metaphor above where Westeros is the beautiful woman with 4 men raping her- the 4 Kings.

Even in Oldtown, far from the fighting and safe behind its walls, the War of the Five Kings had touched them all . . . although Archmaester Benedict insisted that there had never been a war of five kings, since Renly Baratheon had been slain before Balon Greyjoy had crowned himself.

So 4 Kings depending on the timeline.

My flesh will feed the wolves and carrion crows, she thought sadly, and worms will burrow through my womb. 

Her accumulated power will feed the wolves and carrion crows.☺️☺️☺️

"Of all. They shall come day and night to see the wonder that has been born again into the world, and when they see they shall lust. For dragons are fire made flesh, and fire is power."

We can actually see that grouping again in a Jon chapter. Parallels!🤡🤡

“I see what you are, Snow. Half a wolf and half a wildling , baseborn get of a traitor and a whore."

“Peace means peace for all.”

The Norrey hawked and spat. “As well make peace with wolves and carrion crows.”

Love this talk of peace. To the Flints and Norreys, Jon is both a wolf and carrion crow.

He called Jon Snow a craven, a liar, and a turncloak, cursed him for a black-hearted buggering kneeler, a robber, and a carrion crow, accused him of wanting to fuck the free folk up the arse.

In fact, Jon explicitly gets called that in the same chapter. This is JonTheBlackBastard all over again.

Meanwhile Dany is out there finally rejecting peace.

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

She's done with planting trees!

We came to raise up a king and queen who would lead us home to Westeros, but this Targaryen girl seems more intent on planting olive trees than in reclaiming her father's throne.

The trees are olives- the symbol of peace in our world. "To extend an olive branch" is to make peace. I mean, this is such a clear symbolism that Dany will choose war. Imagine if Sansa accepted Littlefinger's pomegranate, why I'd be fearing for her life. Reminder : As early as AGoT, Dany has usurped her brother in her mind before his death. She'll probably usurp someone again. FAegon or Jon? Both?

Dany's enemies melting away means defeat.

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

I propose this dream of hers symbolizes defeat like how Mel saw Stannis winning but it's actually a vision of him losing. There's a Jonsa meta out there detailing that when X person is exulted, the opposite happens. Dany will wake the dragon in a way that Viserys always meant it to be. She's gonna get so MAD.

"We are an old people. Ancestors are important to us. Wed Hizdahr zo Loraq and make a son with him, a son whose father is the harpy, whose mother is the dragon. In him the prophecies shall be fulfilled, and your enemies will melt away like snow."

Snow and dew. She's fighting 1) Usurper 2)armored in ice . I love that the other mention of snow for Dany is her audience with the Undying which was " a honor as rare as summer snows." Any other? Being a snow maid? Snow's maid? Oh, wait. That's the snow tasting girl. 🤣🤣🤣

"Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist.

Interestingly, we have a Jon dream of him being armored in black ice.

"I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow.

The same dream where he becomes a usurper. Parallels!!!!🤡🤡🤡

"A dragon eating its own tail, aye," Valena said. "From the days of Aegon’s Conquest. He did not conquer here. Elsewhere he burned his foes, him and his sisters, but here we melted away before them, leaving only stone and sand for them to burn.

Dorne melted away before Aegon, a dragon. Aegon never conquered Dorne. So if Dany's enemies "melt away" like Aegon's did then that means the dragon is the loser.

[docpiplup]

ARIANNE MARTELL APPRECIATION WEEK 202

Day 2- Strengths and Flaws/ Feminist themes

Political skills, historical knowledge, cunning and ambitions involving Arianne's plot to crown Myrcella as Queen of Westeros.

"Aye, but Tommen is a good-hearted boy. He will be a better king than Joffrey."

"But not better than Myrcella. She loves the boy as well. I know she will not let him come to any harm. Storm's End is his by rights, since Lord Renly left no heir and Lord Stannis is attainted. In time, Casterly Rock will pass to the boy as well, through his lady mother. He will be as great a lord as any in the realm . . . but Myrcella by rights should sit the Iron Throne."

"The law . . . I do not know . . ."

"I do." When she stood, the long black tangle of her hair fell down to the small of her back. "Aegon the Dragon made the Kingsguard and its vows, but what one king does another can undo, or change. Formerly the Kingsguard served for life, yet Joffrey dismissed Ser Barristan so his dog could have a cloak. Myrcella would want you to be happy, and she is fond of me as well. She will give us leave to marry if we ask." Arianne put her arms around him and laid her face against his chest. The top of her head came to just beneath his chin. "You can have me and your white cloak both, if that is what you want."

"If they should come down on us."

(....)

"Oh, but they must, or see the realm riven once more, as it was before we wed the dragons. Father told me so. He said we had the Imp to thank, for sending us Princess Myrcella. She is so pretty, don't you think? I wish that I had curls like hers. She was made to be a queen, just like her mother." Dimples bloomed in Tyene's cheeks. "I would be honored to arrange the wedding, and to see to the making of the crowns as well. Trystane and Myrcella are so innocent, I thought perhaps white gold . . . with emeralds, to match Myrcella's eyes. Oh, diamonds and pearls would serve as well, so long as the children are wed and crowned. Then we need only hail Myrcella as the First of Her Name, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and lawful heir to the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros, and wait for the lions to come."

"The lawful heir?" The prince snorted.

"By Dornish law."

"When good King Daeron wed Princess Myriah and brought us into his kingdom, it was agreed that Dornish law would always rule in Dorne. And Myrcella is in Dorne, as it happens."

"So she is." His tone was grudging. "Let me think on it."

“Myrcella is more fit for rule …”

“A son comes before a daughter.”

“Why? What god has made it so? I am my father’s heir. Should I give up my rights to my brothers?”

(....)

"Nor is he his sister."

It was true. Tommen was a good-hearted little man who always tried his best, but the last time Ser Arys saw him he had been weeping on the quay. Myrcella never shed a tear, though it was she who was leaving hearth and home to seal an alliance with her maidenhood. The truth was, the princess was braver than her brother, and brighter and more confident as well. Her wits were quicker, her courtesies more polished. Nothing ever daunted her, not even Joffrey. The women are the strong ones, truly. He was thinking not only of Myrcella, but of her mother and his own, of the Queen of Thorns, of the Red Viper's pretty, deadly Sand Snakes. And of Princess Arianne Martell, her most of all. "I will not say that you are wrong." His voice was hoarse.

"Will not? Cannot! Myrcella is more fit for rule . . ."

"A son comes before a daughter."

(...)

Ser Criston Cole. Criston the Kingmaker had set brother against sister and divided the Kingsguard against itself, bringing on the terrible war the singers named the Dance of the Dragons. Some claimed he acted from ambition, for Prince Aegon was more tractable than his willful older sister. Others allowed him nobler motives, and argued that he was defending ancient Andal custom. A few whispered that Ser Criston had been Princess Rhaenyra's lover before he took the white and wanted vengeance on the woman who had spurned him. "The Kingmaker wrought grave harm," Ser Arys said, "and gravely did he pay for it, but . . ."

(...)

". . . but perhaps the Seven sent you here so that one white knight might make right what another set awry. You do know that when my father returns to the Water Gardens he plans to take Myrcella with him?"

"To keep her safe from those who would do her harm."

Ser Arys frowned. The big Norvoshi captain with the scarred face had always made him feel profoundly uneasy. They say he sleeps with that great axe beside him. "What would you have me do?"

"No more than you have sworn. Protect Myrcella with your life. Defend her . . . and her rights. Set a crown upon her head."

"I swore an oath!"

(....)

"The dragon is time. It has no beginning and no ending, so all things come round again. Anders Yronwood is Criston Cole reborn. He whispers in my brother's ear that he should rule after my father, that it is not right for men to kneel to women . . . that Arianne especially is unfit to rule, being the willful wanton that she is." She tossed her hair defiantly. "So your two princesses share a common cause, ser . . . and they share as well a knight who claims to love them both, but will not fight for them."

(...)

"I will." Ser Arys sank to one knee. "Myrcella is the elder, and better suited to the crown. Who will defend her rights if not her Kingsguard? My sword, my life, my honor, all belong to her . . . and to you, my heart's delight. I swear, no man will steal your birthright whilst I still have the strength to lift a sword. I am yours. What would you have of me?"

"All." She knelt to kiss his lips. "All, my love, my true love, my sweet love, and forever. But first . . ."

(...)

We're almost there, Your Grace," Garin told Myrcella cheerfully when they spied more sandbeggars up ahead, a thicket of them growing all around the dry bed of a stream. The sun was beating down like a fiery hammer, but it did not matter with their journey at its end. They stopped to water the horses again, drank deep from their skins and wet their veils, then mounted for the last push. Within half a league they were riding over devilgrass and past olive groves. Beyond a line of stony hills the grass grew greener and more lush, and there were lemon orchards watered by a spider's web of old canals. Garin was the first to spy the river glimmering green. He gave a shout and raced ahead.

Arianne Martell had crossed the Mander once, when she had gone with three of the Sand Snakes to visit Tyene's mother. Compared to that mighty waterway, the Greenblood was scarce worthy of the name of river, yet it remained the life of Dorne. It took its name from the murky green of its sluggish waters; but as they approached, the sunlight seemed to turn those waters gold. She had seldom seen a sweeter sight. The next part should be slow and simple, she thought, up the Greenblood and onto the Vaith, as far as a poleboat can go. That would give her time enough to prepare Myrcella for all that was to come. Beyond Vaith the deep sands waited. They would need help from Sandstone and the Hellholt to make that crossing, but she did not doubt that it would be forthcoming. The Red Viper had been fostered at Sandstone, and Prince Oberyn's paramour Ellaria Sand was Lord Uller's natural daughter; four of the Sand Snakes were his granddaughters. I will crown Myrcella at the Hellholt and raise my banners there.

[goodqueenaly]

Since apparently asking about Margeary's hypothetical marriage to Robert is the hip thing to do, I'm curious about what you think would happen with Varys and his Aegon plan. It seems as though Varys needs the Lannisters in power to show the degradation of Westeros and stand as the enemy for Aegon to defeat and bring peace back. Robert, for all his faults, is still a popular king and with the power of the Reach on his side, wouldn't it make it harder on Varys to convince the realm to back Aegon?

I think you’re right that Varys would wanted to have avoided a Margaery-Robert marriage. The last thing Varys wants or needs is a clearly legitimate heir of Robert, acknowledged by Robert in his own lifetime as his heir, with a rich and powerful maternal heritage, sitting the Iron Throne after Robert’s death. For all his faults - and those were many - Robert was a shrewd and capable leader in war and the popular hero of his eponymous Rebellion against the universally loathed Aerys II; his heir by Margaery would have that strong legacy to draw upon in addition to unquestionable legitimacy, a double blow against a potential Targaryen restoration.

So my guess would be that Varys would have discreetly assassinated Robert very soon after his betrothal or marriage to Margaery. To the Tyrells, Varys might find a way to suggest that this was done by Stannis: the Lannister affair reveal was no more than Stannis’ ambition to take the throne, so naturally Stannis would have been certain to kill his brother once it became clear that there were no legitimate Baratheon heirs ahead of him. To Renly, Varys might find a way to encourage his own desire for adulation and attention: why not marry Robert’s widow and declare yourself king (or, at least, regent for a posthumous Baratheon baby), ahead of that no-good-very-bad Stannis? To Stannis, Varys might either suggest that this was a Renly plot - trying to claim the crown for himself while there was still a lack of legitimate heirs of Robert’s body - and/or a Tyrell plot (either to join Renly or, if the Tyrells claimed Margaery was already pregnant as might have been the intention, to off Robert as soon as they could get their unborn grandbaby on the throne). Between these three factions suspecting and or outright accusing each other, the Lannisters still probably howling over the Cersei-Jaime debacle and out for blood, and Balon independently, well, trying for independence, I think there would be plenty of ground for chaos in Westeros, the better to prepare for Aegon’s would-be heroic takeover.

[queenvhagar]

The writers are trying real hard to push the “modern feminism” narrative in a fantasy universe that revolves around a medieval setting. I hate that Alicent and Rhaenyra are in a middle of a civil war and they ’re all acting like no bad blood happened. They both lost loved ones but be like let me reconnect with my former bestie first. They both should feel rage and annihilate everyone who stands on their way. Alicent selling Aegon out is a fine example of character assassination. A Hightower noblewoman whose world revolves around family, power, and prestige then risking it all to rekindle some sort of bond for her petty childhood friend.

The series is so completely divorced from its setting. There is no pacifism or feminism in this world, unfortunately. War is glorified and a means to safeguard family honor. Comparing this so-called war to the ones in Game of Thrones only highlights this fact. Tyrion Lannister is taken captive, so the Lannisters declare war to get him back. Ned Stark is beheaded and Sansa held hostage, so the Starks declare war to get justice. Stannis and Renly separately want to press their claims despite a king already being crowned and sitting the throne, so they have to declare war to take it from him. There's no hesitation about using their hosts in battle and defeating the enemy armies. There's no hesitation in sacking towns. This is how medieval warfare works and its accepted that this is how problems are solved.

Instead HOTD has Alicent's second son permanently disfigured and disabled by the enemy, her honor insulted by her husband the king, her young grandson beheaded in his bed and his mother psychologically tormented. Alicent would want war and the annihilation of her enemy. HOTD has Rhaenyra lose two children, a father, and a throne to the Greens. She should also want war and the death of those who wronged her. Instead we have "sisterhood transcends houses and medieval sensibilities" and "good people are pacifists."

[raya-rhaenyra-ahsoka]

Why Daenerys Should've Stayed Longer in the North Than Attack Cersei Too Soon (Which is a dick move, really) PART 2

This is a continuation from my other post, as promised. Here’s the link to Part 1 here.

ALLIES FROM THE SOUTH

The Stormlands. With Dany recently legitimizing Robert Baratheon’s last living bastard, Gendry (Yay!), and appointed him as the new Lord of Storm’s End, I think he had pledged his loyalty and full support to her.

Now since the Baratheons are the overlords of the Stormlands, it ultimately makes the Stormlands part of Dany’s new rule in Westeros. And if the Stormmen questioned Gendry’s legitimacy, there are two people who can back him up: Ser Davos Seaworth, a landed knight, and Ser Brienne of Tarth, literally the heiress to Evenfall in Tarth Island. Both of whom are from the Stormlands and have served the late Baratheon lords, Stannis,

and Renly, respectively.

TV show-wise, Gendry had taken over Edric Storm’s plotline. Edric Storm was another one of Robert’s many bastards and it was him who Ser Davos saved from being killed by Mellisandre in the books, not Gendry. Gendry himself was grateful to Davos for saving his life and he sort of stepped up as his own parental figure. I also think Gendry reminded Davos of the son he lost during the Battle of Blackwater Bay.

As for Brienne, she and Gendry never shared a conversation in the show, but in the books, he even saved her life. Brienne came from Tarth, an island in the Stormlands, where her father Selwyn Tarth is lord and one of the many bannermen of the Baratheons of Storm’s End. Brienne came across Gendry in the Inn at the Crossroads while she was searching for the Stark girls. When she saw him, she literally thought he was Renly because of his striking resemblance to his uncle. Their exchange went something like this:

Brienne: Oh my god, Lord Renly?!

Gendry: Uh, what? Lord? Lol no, I’m just a smith.

I wished it happened in the show, it would’ve been funny.

Dorne. There isn’t much plot regarding Dorne in the show. (Again, f*ck D&D for ruining a great sub-plot of the story!) But in the books, the Martell heiress, Arianne was the ultimate feminist icon. She supported and fought for Myrcella Baratheon’s claim to the Iron throne over her younger brother, Tommen, and she hoped that the rest of Westeros would follow after Dorne’s right of inheritance regardless of gender and order of birth. But no! They disregarded that seemingly important plot that even George R.R. Martin was disappointed about the changes. (We hear you, George!) Nevertheless, Arianne would’ve supported a queen, yes. But between Daenerys and Cersei, she’d probably go with Dany mainly because of their family ties. In case you forgot, Rhaegar’s late first wife, Elia Martell, was Arianne’s aunt. Also, because of what happened to Elia and Oberyn Martell in King’s Landing, the Martells practically loathed the Lannisters. In the show, Oberyn Martell’s paramour Ellaria Sand, and his bastard daughters, the Sand Snakes, hated the Lannisters, that’s why they sided with Dany. But with all of them dead and House Martell now extinct, I think the new prince of Dorne would’ve allied himself with a tamer ruler, not one who plays with wildfire. (Note: this is when Dany stayed in the North and did not march south yet.)

Spies. In the Art of War, the use of spies implies gaining knowledge of the enemy, knowing their motive and their next move. With Lord Varys the Spider in Winterfell, who’s still serving under Daenerys, has its advantages. Vary’s networks of spies or as what he called them, his “little birds” are literally scattered across the seven kingdoms.

His little birds are actually children, and appearance-wise, cannot be easily identified as spies. With his intel, they could easily formulate a plan to defeat Cersei.

DEFENSE AT SEA

 If Cersei couldn’t do it by land, she’ll go by sea. Which, Daenerys of course, have the appropriate fleets to defend, covering both the Narrow and Sunset Seas. Here's a map:

(Source: pinterest.com)

Enemies to the East. If Cersei will be stupid enough to attack through the Narrow Sea by sea, Daenerys has the fleets to defend. The Northern fleet, a.k.a the Manderly Fleet of White Harbor and the Arryn Fleet in Gulltown in the Vale will join forces.

Enemies to the West. And if they invade through the Sunset Sea, they’d have to pass the Iron Islands, where Yara Greyjoy’s Fleet will intercept them, with the help of the Mallister Fleet in Seagard.

Who would win depends. The only other person that’s probably as good as Euron at sea is his niece, Yara. The rest of Dany’s fleet would have to get lucky or outnumber the number of ships in a fleet.

At this point, you’ll probably be like, oh, what if they steer clear from the fleets and enter the North’s weakly defended areas? Okay, that job falls to the castles nearest to their borders. The northernmost castle is the Last Hearth, the seat of House Umber, which is practically already deserted. On the south is Greywater Watch, which has the strongest defense out of all four cardinal directions. On both east and west hold the seat of two branches of House Flint, with Widow’s Watch on the east, and Flint’s Finger on the west (Again, refer to the map above). Once they see Cersei’s fleet, they’ll inform the people in Winterfell.

People tend to forget that Daenerys has the only air support with her dragons. So when she hears about this, she’ll easily burn the enemy fleet with one dracarys away.

That is, if Qyburn hadn’t installed that big-ass crossbow in one of the ships, then she’ll have to be better at dodging them. It gets better if Jon’s willing to help her with Rhaegal, but we’ll never know.

OUTNUMBERED AND SURROUNDED

The map shows the Crownlands and its neighboring kingdoms of the Vale, the Riverlands, the Reach, and the Stormlands. (Source: pinterest.com)

Territories. With Cersei sacrificing Casterly Rock to tighten her grip on the Iron Throne, she technically had also sacrificed the Westerlands, which meant everything north of King’s Landing is Dany’s territory now. With Dany’s army and territories secured, the Crownlands, where King’s Landing is, is technically surrounded by the Vale, the Riverlands, the Reach, and Stormlands. I included the Reach because, well, she roasted the Tarlys and took the remaining men to her cause with a choice, bend the knee or die in a blaze of glory.

Armies. Dany has the combined armies of North, Vale, Riverlands, Westerlands, Reach, Stormlands, and maybe Dorne, plus, the Unsullied; fleets of the North, Vale, Riverlands, and Yara’s fleet from the Iron Islands; and the only air support, her two remaining dragons. Cersei on the other hand, just had the army of the Crownlands, King’s Landing’s City Watch, the queensguard, plus, the Golden Company without elephants; and Euron Greyjoy’s fleet.

I think it’s obvious that Dany outnumbers Cersei’s army, by a lot. And at this point, Dany has enough allies to lay a siege on King’s Landing.

DAENERYS VS. CERSEI

Let’s discuss the difference in the personalities and motives of Daenerys Targaryen and Cersei Lannister.

They both have blond hair, are the only girl among three siblings, and are queens in their own right. But that’s where their similarities end.

Cersei currently sits on the iron throne, and she is loving the perks that came with it. Endless Power, which meant she can do whatever she wants and not care about what people think, like sleeping with her brother. With the news of Dany coming back to Westeros, she sees her as a threat and wanted nothing more than for Dany to disappear so she could stay in power.

Daenerys, however, claims that being the queen of the seven kingdoms is her birthright, as it was the Targaryens that reunited the whole continent of Westeros. Of course, it’s still power, but at the same time, she sees it as a responsibility as well. (With great power, comes great responsibility. Wow, I’m quoting Spiderman now.) She believes that as a queen, it’s her job to take care and provide for the needs of her subjects and even makes an effort to hold court as she listened to their demands. She also thinks that slavery is a big no-no, so she freed them.

The key to becoming a great leader is finding the balance between being loved and feared by your subjects. Cersei is more likely feared than loved. She also doesn’t care about her people, a fact that she admitted to her brother, Tyrion once. Daenerys most likely had the scale tips on balance, with her being equally loved and feared by her subjects. She’s loved because she actually takes time to listen to the people’s needs, and feared because she could take you out using her dragons with one word.

If Dany did lay siege on King’s Landing (again, we aren’t counting her major mad queen moment), the only thing Cersei can use against Dany is the people living within the city walls. Cersei might have heard that Dany’s been freeing slaves in the cities surrounding Slaver’s Bay, and figured out that she has a soft spot for the common folk.

In conclusion, if Daenerys had simply waited out and took her time planning and gathering allies and supplies against Cersei, she would’ve been successful in her campaign to retake Westeros. But then again, we aren’t the writers for this show. In the end, they had Jon battling through himself while he chooses to reply with either of his two favorite lines, She’s my queen or I don’t want it. Or that Sansa and Arya doesn’t like Dany at all and think that she’s a power-hungry, dragon-riding bitch. Or that Bran doesn’t give a f*ck about anything. So, yeah. What do you guys think?

[dany-is-my-queen]

Beautiful Now

Daenerys Targaryen x Fem! Baratheon! Reader

Word Count: 718

Note: Here’s another story! I still don't know how it will work out but I hope you like it :) The next chapters will be longer. I love Dany so much.

Your brother Renly was dead, you were there the night it happened, you couldn’t save him. There were rumors the shade of Stannis killed him, stabbed him in the heart, others said his men did it, that was highly unlikely. You returned to Storm’s End, Renly didn’t have any children, he named you his heir, the big castle now belonged to you, his soldiers joined Stannis in his claim, you decided to quit the fight so you headed back home. Honestly being part of war wasn’t in your plans, and now that Renly was gone you didn’t want to get involved.

Daenerys left Qarth with gold and her dragons, Ser Jorah was with her, the only man that followed her all this way to Westeros. She arrived at the Stormlands with no armies, she chose to go there first. She didn’t exactly have a plan, Jorah advised her to make allies, then she’ll gain the trust of the people, they will see her as the rightful queen, not the usurper’s son, not anyone but her.

You were still grieving for your brother, he was a kind man, he would have made a good king, Loras and Margaery Tyrell knew that, as far as you know they joined the Lannisters. You were alike to Robert in many ways, you loved alcohol, you were about to get drunk again when Ser Cortnay Penrose, the castellan of Storm’s End entered notifying the arrival of two strangers requesting an audience with his lady. You were very fond of him, he was a brave, honorable knight, loyal to you. You instructed him to fetch them in. Who could they be? You weren’t expecting any visitors.

A young woman and a man showed up, they were wearing capes, you frowned. “These are Daenerys of House Targaryen. And Jorah of House Mormont.” Ser Cortnay presented them. You were bewildered, what was a Targaryen doing here?

“I'm delighted to make your acquaintance, lady Baratheon.” The girl spoke politely.

“It’s my pleasure, lady Daenerys.” You weren’t sure how to address her, princess? lady Targaryen? You were barely five years older than her. She was around her eighteen’s. “I think I remember you.” You alluded to the other knight. “Ser Jorah, you were exiled.” He ducked his head down.

“Yes, my lady, I was but now I serve the rightful heir of the Iron Throne.” You could see now her hair, it was quite beautiful, just like her eyes.

“Oh, well I was very young since I last saw you. If I may ask... why you came here?” You inquired.

“I’ve heard a bastard sits on the throne, the North is in open rebellion, and your oldest brother is fighting the Lannisters. I give you my condolences for lord Renly, Ser Jorah told me he was a noble man.” Sadly you nodded. You knew she meant it, she could sympathize with you, in fact, her brother Rheagar was very similar to Renly. Unfortunately she didn’t get the chance to meet him.

“Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I hold no affection for neither Stannis nor Joffrey. Westeros needs a better ruler, a strong, wise, and gentle one.”

“It certainly does. I’m aware my family caused great pain to everyone in the past. King Robert ended the tyranny of my father. But now things need to change.” Her expression was serious, at her young age, she seemed to be a determined person. “I want to show you something.” Ser Cortnay looked at you suspiciously, you murmured to him ‘it’s alright’ before joining the guests.

At the courtyard you spotted their ship, soon some loud noises caught your attention, three dragons were flying above you, they weren’t fully grown, but still, they took your breath away, you glare at them in awe. Not believing your eyes.

“I might not have any armies behind me but I have my children.” You fixed your eyes in Daenerys. She had a smile on her face.

“They are wonderful. I’ll be on your side, my lady. I will support your claim, and you can stay here in Storm’s End as long as you wish.” It’s like you fell under a spell, you barely knew her, you could tell she was good, not your oldest brother or your nasty ‘nephew’ deserved to be King.

[ericanoelle]

What if Petyr does not betray Ned?

When Ned enters the throne room after Robert's death, stating that Joffrey was not the heir to the throne, the gold cloaks arrest and hold Cersei and the kids hostage in the black cells; just like Petyr said he would. This solidifies Ned's trust in Petyr.

Cersei and is executed (mostly for the murder of Jon Arryn- which they did not commit) but Ned does not have the stomach to kill kids so, he sends them to Casterly Rock- however, Petyr does not think this is a good idea and arranges for a "accident" to happen along the way.

Ned holds the throne until Stannis can come from Dragonstone to King's Landing. During this time, Petyr plants in Sansa's head (who is just shocked and overwhelmed by the news of Joffrey and the scandal) that the world is not a good place and that she needs to be resourceful. When Stannis takes the throne and Ned sees that war is on the horizon and sends Sansa and Arya back North.

A war between Lannister and Baratheon breaks out because Tywin is not going to let the execution of his daughter go and believes that Ned Stark had his grandchildren murdered (Ned thinks that there was an accident during travel)- and Jaime, who had left King's Landing to find Tyrion, is FUMING. Petyr is still Master of Coin and sits on Stannis's small counsel, who is widely unpopular.

Ned does send Northern banner-men to fight with Stannis and Renly marries Margaery to obtain the Reach. Robb marries a Frey girl, Roslin, to get their men. The Vale- stays out it so Stannis sends Petyr, who had a friendship with Lysa to convince her. He claims that the only way she would agree was by marriage. Stannis approves the marriage and that marriage brings the Vale into the war (Petyr arranged this to gain control of. the Vale) but does not stay there with Lysa- he goes then to the Riverlands.

For the most party, Tywin looses quickly because he doesn't have the numbers. Jaime is killed and the only Lannister left is Tyrion who is smart and bends the knee. (also think shadow baby is what kills Tywin personally).

However, before his death Tywin does send someone to Winterfell to kill the Starks. The only ones who are there are Catelyn, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon. Ned is at war, Robb is with him (Roslin is still at the Twins waiting for her husband). Everyone is slaughtered, except for Sansa. She hides for a few days, only to emerge when she is sure her attacker is gone.

Being clever, and remembering Petyr's words, she gathers what she can and rides to the nearest Nobel house (not the boltons- Sansa is smarter than that) and ends up at either the Karstarks or Umbers. They quickly send word to Ned and Robb that Sansa is alive.

At this point, Petyr is grieving alongside Ned and them because he did have feelings for Catelyn and took a shrine to Sansa- however, he frames his grief as though he lost a sister since he is now married to Lysa and is family. When words gets out that Sansa Stark is alive, it resonates with him. I imagine he is at Riverrun, working with Edmure to broke a deal for men or something. Ned requests that Sansa be brought there, so Petyr waits.

When Sansa arrives, it is Petyr and Edmure who care for her until Robb and Ned arrive. I imagine that when the pass through the twins, Roslin rides with them to be a companion for Sansa. Petyr becomes her shoulder to cry on and listens and guides her in a way that only Petyr can. Roslin notices this.

When Ned and Robb arrive, they rarely leave Sansa side, who is traumatized for sure but strong. Westeros is settling down from the war, now that Tywin is dead and Casterly Rock now belongs to Tyrion (I think Jaime is also dead).

Ned, Robb, Roslin and Sansa all go back to Winterfell. Petyr goes to the Vale. Ned mentions finding a husband for Sansa but she refuses. She does not want to marry after Joffrey and the massacre. Petyr plants the seed in Lysa's head that they should bring Sansa to the Vale- that maybe she needs a motherly figure.

Some point, Stannis "dies" in an accident and Renly is on the throne.

By the time Ned escorts Sansa to the Vale, Lysa jumped out the moon door. Petyr spins the story of her jealousy and believing he was having an affair- in reality, he pushed her (I think it was not planned and in the moment like in the books). Ned, thinking that Petyr is a friend and grieving, offers him comfort. Sansa, who likes Petyr - and has a crush, does what she can to help- especially with Sweetrobin. They are there for a few months and Ned is proud of Sansa and how she stepped up to help The Vale - which is where Ned was fostered and holds a special place in his heart. He also notices that Sansa has a crush on Petyr but does nothing about it.

Petyr is Lord Protector of the Vale and guardian of Sweetrobin. Ned and Sansa end up going back to Winterfell. After a few months pass, Petyr and Ned still exchanging letters, Roslin mentions to Robb that Petyr and Sansa seemed to on well at Riverrun and that maybe they would be a good match. Robb is like "no he is too old" but Ned remembers how well Sansa did with the Vale and that she liked Petyr.

Ned offers Sansa's hand (which she is happy about) and they marry. Sweetrobin ends up passing away a few months after they marry and Renly gives Petyr the Vale since there is no heir.

[agentrouka-blog]

What do you think about stannis arc to be ended?

I think it will be fun! 

He’s obviously doomed. Kinslaying, blood magic, obsession with prophecy and affronting all gods beside R’hllor… 

I’m quite sure he will pull a full-on Agamemnon. The shoe fits. Kinslaying, prophecy-spouting mistress (anti-Cassandra = Melisandre), on the war path… He and his ever more radicalized red-god-followers will probably end up sacrificing Shireen to compensate for a setback, in a mirror to Iphigenia. 

My hope: In some completely unexpected way, Selyse will be the one to kill him over it. Just a complete inward collapse of his House. 

"I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty . . . If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark . . . Sacrifice . . . is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice. Tell him, my lady."

Melisandre said, "Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer with the heart's blood of his own beloved wife. If a man with a thousand cows gives one to god, that is nothing. But a man who offers the only cow he owns . . ." 

(ASOS, Davos VI)

What does Stannis have only one of? Children. 

Why would Selyse do it? Because she loves her daughter. 

"Eastwatch is not safe." The queen put a hand on her daughter's shoulder. "This is the king's true heir. Shireen will one day sit the Iron Throne and rule the Seven Kingdoms. She must be kept from harm, and Eastwatch is where the attack will come. This Nightfort is the place my husband has chosen for our seat, and there we shall abide. We—oh!"

An enormous shadow emerged from behind the shell of the Lord Commander's Tower. Princess Shireen gave a shriek, and three of the queen's knights gasped in harmony. Another swore. "Seven save us," he said, quite forgetting his new red god in his shock. (ADWD, Jon IX)

Also, it would be beautifully ironic:

"Lord Snow, as Lady Val is a stranger to our ways, please send her to me, that I might instruct her in the duties of a noble lady toward her lord husband."

That will go splendidly, I know. Jon wondered if the queen would be so eager to see Val married to one of her own knights if she knew Val's feelings about Princess Shireen. (ADWD, Jon XIII)

Also, we are unsubtly pushed not to expect it:

"—and children, yes. Very sad." The queen pulled her daughter closer to her and kissed her cheek. The cheek unmarred by greyscale, Jon did not fail to note. "We are sorry for the little ones, of course, but we must be sensible. We have no food for them, and they are too young to help the king my husband in his wars. Better that they be reborn into the light."

That was just a softer way of saying let them die. (ADWD, Jon XIII)

A misdirection to make us believe she doesn’t truly love her daughter, and is unfazed by murdering children. Nope. Touch Shireen and she will forget the red god. 

Sort of a mirror to Dany. Magic, Rhaego dies, Dany kills Drogo. Fire. The khalasar scatters. Kingsblood wakes a stone dragon.

"Your brother's blood," Melisandre said. "A king's blood. Only a king's blood can wake the stone dragon."

Stannis ground his teeth. "I'll hear no more of this. The dragons are done. The Targaryens tried to bring them back half a dozen times. And made fools of themselves, or corpses. Patchface is the only fool we need on this godsforsaken rock. You have the leeches. Do your work." (ASOS, Davos IV)

Stannis shed a lot of kingsblood with those magic leeches: Balon’s, Joffrey’s, Robb’s. Plus Renly.

Dany: Viserys (Renly), Rhaego (Shireen), Drogo (Selyse), Mirri (Melisandre) -> woke three stone dragons. Stone being a bastard name like Snow. Jon’s heart having turned to stone. Possibly this connects to Sansa (Alayne Stone), as well, but it gives us a general timeline.

The clouds hid most of the Ice Dragon, all but the bright blue eye that marked due north. The sky is full of smugglers' stars. They were old friends, those stars; Davos hoped that meant good luck.

But when he lowered his gaze from the sky to the castle ramparts, he was not so certain. The wings of the stone dragons cast great black shadows in the light from the nightfire. (ASOS, Davos VI)

The nightfire will cast stone dragon shadows, in the North, where a hidden (ice) dragon has a blue eye. The enormous shadow that made Shireen shriek had come from behind the shell of the Lord Commander’s Tower. 

Ominous.

If it is not Selyse, very importantly, I do not want it to be Brienne. She is intimately connected to Catelyn and Arya’s arc of justice v. vengeance, and like Arya’s competing list of names (kill list v. alias based on loved ones), Brienne has competing oaths, competing swords.

It made sense enough for Brienne. “I will kill him,” the tall homely girl declared. “With my lord’s own sword, I will kill him. I swear it. I swear it. I swear it.” (ACOK, Catelyn IV)

She wants to devote herself to vengeance, but Cat gives her a different purpose.

Brienne closed her thick callused fingers around the hilt of her sword. The sword that had been his. "I swore a vow. Three times I swore. You heard me." (...)

“My son may be a king, but I am no queen . . . only a mother who would keep her children safe, however she could.” “I am not made to be a mother. I need to fight.” “Then fight . . . but for the living, not the dead.” (…)

“And I think, when the time comes, you will not try and hold me back. Promise me that. That you will not hold me back from Stannis.” Catelyn could still hear Stannis saying that Robb’s turn too would come in time. It was like a cold breath on the back of her neck. “When the time comes, I will not hold you back.” The tall girl knelt awkwardly, unsheathed Renly’s longsword, and laid it at her feet. “Then I am yours, my lady. Your liege man, or . . . whatever you would have me be. I will shield your back and keep your counsel and give my life for yours, if need be. I swear it by the old gods and the new.”

(ACOK, Catelyn V)

Brienne is set on a path to preserve life, not take it, with Jaime.

Brienne pushed open the door and stepped inside the cell. “You called, my lady?” “Give me your sword.” Catelyn held out her hand. (ACOK, Catelyn VII)

Oathbreaking is a theme...

Up again. “Yield, or I’ll drown you!” “And break your oath?” he snarled. “Like me?” She let him go, and he went down with a splash. (…)

Brienne dove for her sword beneath the waters of the brook, but the Mummers were on her before she could lay hands on it. (ASOS, Jaime III)

She loses the bad sword of vengeance. But she will gain another one:

"A sword so fine must bear a name. It would please me if you would call this one Oathkeeper. One more thing. The blade comes with a price."  (…)

"I have made kings and unmade them. Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor." Jaime smiled thinly. "Besides, kingslayers should band together. Are you ever going to go?"

Her big hand wrapped tight around Oathkeeper. "I will. And I will find the girl and keep her safe. For her lady mother's sake. And for yours." She bowed stiffly, whirled, and went.  (ASOS, Jaime IX)

Kingslayers should band together. But she is not truly one, nor should she be. Her fight is for the living.

Lady Catelyn's fingers dug deep into her throat, and the words came rattling out, choked and broken, a stream as cold as ice. The northman said, "She says that you must choose. Take the sword and slay the Kingslayer, or be hanged for a betrayer. The sword or the noose, she says. Choose, she says. Choose."  (AFFC, Brienne VIII)

Brienne fights for the living. There is one vow she needs to break: to become a kingslayer for vengeance. 

There is every chance I am wrong, but this is my optimal scenario. 

[nymerias-heart]

"You should bring this son of yours to court," Cersei told Lady Merryweather. "Six is not too young. Tommen needs other boys about him. Why not your son?" Joffrey had never had a close friend of his own age, that she recalled. The poor boy was always alone. I had Jaime when I was a child . . . and Melara, until she fell into the well. Joff had been fond of the Hound, to be sure, but that was not friendship. He was looking for the father he never found in Robert. A little foster brother might be just what Tommen needs to wean him away from Margaery and her hens. In time they might grow as close as Robert and his boyhood friend Ned Stark. A fool, but a loyal fool. Tommen will have need of loyal friends to watch his back.And then we have this what little finger tells ned.

And

"I was eight when my father sent me to foster at the Eyrie," Ned said. "Ser Rodrik tells me there is bad feeling between Robb and Prince Joffrey. That is not healthy. Bran can bridge that distance. He is a sweet boy, quick to laugh, easy to love. Let him grow up with the young princes, let him become their friend as Robert became mine. Our House will be the safer for it."

Don't mind me, just sitting here thinking about an AU where Ned is a little less honourable and instead of wanting to tell everyone the secret of cersei's bastards, he lives and rules as Joffreys regant.

"Now look at the other side of the coin. Joffrey is but twelve, and Robert gave you the regency, my lord. You are the Hand of the King and Protector of the Realm. The power is yours, Lord Stark. All you need do is reach out and take it. Make your peace with the Lannisters. Release the Imp. Wed Joffrey to your Sansa. Wed your younger girl to Prince Tommen, and your heir to Myrcella. It will be four years before Joffrey comes of age. By then he will look to you as a second father, and if not, well … four years is a good long while, my lord. Long enough to dispose of Lord Stannis. Then, should Joffrey prove troublesome, we can reveal his little secret and put Lord Renly on the throne

I kind of wish he had taken littlefingers advice, which is a bit ironic I guess that he didn't. In the second quote he is telling catelyn that Bran becoming a good friend and brother to Joffrey and tommen would be safer for house stark but then when it actually comes down to the safety of his house ned chooses his honour, putting his whole family at risk and his capture causing the north to go to war, resulting in the deaths of thousands of lives and the believed almost exctinction of his house.

He tries to fix it when his daughters lives are threatened but it's too late then and he gets beheaded.

I know that with the trident Incident Joffrey has shown he's cruel and what with his tendency's to kill animals from a young age (the cat and tommens baby deer) he doesn't have the best mental health but do ye think he could have become better if ned had become his father figure and he learned to rule from him.

Do ye think there was any chance for him to improve and grow as a character if things had been different?

[pettyprocrastination]

Who would you say Reader supports in the war of the five kings?

initially? neither.

Supporting stannis means turning against renly. Supporting renly means casting herself away from renly. Neither of these are things she wants. She would try to convince them to come together because as a united force they are stronger "while the two of you squabble at eachother, a vicious bastard sits on the throne"

also we have to look at the fact that she will have been married to oberyn and living in dorne for quite a few years at this point. And dorne stayed out of the conflict because well...there was nothing in it for them to begin with.

I think after Renly's death, she might fully commit herself to stannis' side. Not because she wants him to be king, but because he's the only family she has left and she doesn't want to lose him too.

[roombachicken]

Why Renly didn't know about the incest.

A popular theory is that Renly Baratheon knew about the incest all along. It's so popular it's treated as fact.

But I maintain that he didn't know, and I think the text supports my assertion.

Here I've listed the common arguments for why he knew, and my rebuttal to them.

It's impossible for Robert to set Cersei aside without the incest

Then why do all these people think he can?

He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old. How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?

( A Game of Thrones, Bran II)

"He was a wretched king . . . vain, drunken, lecherous . . . he would have set your sister aside, his own queen . . . please . . . Renly was plotting to bring the Highgarden maid to court, to entice his brother . . . it is the gods' own truth . . ."

"And what was Lord Arryn plotting?"

"He knew," Pycelle said. "About . . . about . . ."

"I know what he knew about," snapped Tyrion, who was not anxious for Shagga and Timett to know as well.

(A Clash of Kings, Tyrion VI)

Both Pycelle and Cersei think that Robert could set Cersei aside if he wanted to. You can argue that Cersei is paranoid and not well versed in politics, but Pycelle? Pycelle is a maester who would have an in depth knowledge of Westeros history.

Pycelle says Renly was plotting to bring Margaery to court so that Cersei would be set aside, and that Jon Arryn knew about the incest, but he doesn't seem to think Renly knew. Tyrion, a very well read person, does not express surprise or disbelief at Renly's scheme, but takes it in stride.

And there's that word: "put aside". If Renly was planning to use the incest, Cersei would be executed, not put aside.

The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen. Littlefinger … the gods only know what game Littlefinger is playing. Yet Lord Stark's the one who troubles my sleep. He has the bastard, he has the book, and soon enough he'll have the truth. 

(A Game of Thrones, Arya III)

Varys also doesn't seem to think Renly knew. He's afraid of Ned revealing the truth but doesn't imply that Renly was planning to reveal the incest in his scheme. Why?

“I had never suspected you were so clever, Stannis. Were it only true, you would indeed be Robert’s heir.”

“Were it true? Do you name me a liar?”

“Can you prove any word of this fable?”

Stannis ground his teeth.

“We both know your wedding was a mummer’s farce. A year ago you were scheming to make the girl one of Robert’s whores.”

“A year ago I was scheming to make the girl Robert’s queen,” Renly said.

(A Clash of Kings, Catelyn III)

At the parley between Renly and Stannis, Renly denies knowledge of the incest while freely admitting he was planning on making Margaery queen. If the incest was necessary to make Margaery queen, why doesn't Stannis accuse him of knowing about it and using it in his scheme? If the Margaery plan was so impossible, why does Catelyn not think about that when Renly tells the everyone present at the parley about it?

Also, are we supposed to believe that Renly was so careless with his Margaery scheme half the court knew about it, but not a whiff about him supposedly knowing about the incest?

He had to know, otherwise the Tyrells wouldn't agree

I have a counter to that as well:

1) It's not known if the Tyrells did agree. We only hear of Renly and Loras urging Mace to bring Margaery to court, but we don't know if he was going to or if the letter had even been sent (Varys might have prevented it).

2) Margaery being queen would still be a huge coup.

Plans had been under way for some time for the two of them to make another progress the following year, returning to the westerlands for the first time in twenty years. Shortly after their falling out, the queen informed Jaehaerys that he should go alone. She was going back to Dragonstone, alone, to grieve for their dead daughters.

...By that time, the queen’s absence had been noticed, and His Grace would oft find himself seated next to some lissome maid or handsome widow at feasts, or riding beside them when hawking or hunting, but he took no notice of any of them. At Bandallon, when Lord Blackbar’s youngest daughter was so bold as to seat herself in his lap and attempt to feed him a grape, he brushed her hand aside and said, “Forgive me, but I have a queen, and no taste for paramours.”

(Fire and Blood, Jaeherys and Alysanne: The Long Reign)

We know that even being the king's mistress is very desirable based on how many girls were trying to seduce Jaeherys at his first progress without Alysanne.

Aegon IV also had many paramours. With their influence on the king they were able to get their family wealth and power. Robert could hand out council positions, lands, castles and favours to the Tyrells.

Robert still also has many years to live, so the Tyrells could also exert their influence on Joffrey and his siblings, to make sure by the time Joffrey ascends the throne all the gains aren't reversed.

There's no precedent!

That isn't quite true either.

"Wars are bad for trade," said Lord Dorian Hightower, when he set aside his wife of twenty years, the mother of his children, to take an Andal princess as his bride.

(The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: Oldtown)

Garth the Great extended the borders of his realm northward, winning Old Oak, Red Lake, and Goldengrove with pacts of friendship and mutual defense. Garland accomplished the same in the south, bringing Oldtown into his kingdom by wedding his daughter to Lymond (the Sea Lion) of House Hightower, whilst putting his own wives aside to marry Lord Lymond's daughter. 

(The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: The Gardener King)

Beldon tells us that in 239 AC, Ellyn Reyne was accused of bedding Tytos Lannister, urging him to set aside his wife and marry her instead.

(The World of Ice and Fire - The Westerlands: House Lannister Under the Dragons)

Daemon found the Vale of Arryn boring (“In the Vale, the men fuck sheep,” he wrote. “You cannot fault them. Their sheep are prettier than their women.”), and soon developed a mislike of his lady wife, whom he called my bronze bitch, after the runic bronze armor worn by the lords of House Royce. Upon the accession of his brother to the Iron Throne, the prince petitioned to have his marriage set aside. Viserys denied the request but did allow Daemon to return to court".

(Fire and Blood: Heirs of the Dragon)

A fortnight later, Alyn Velaryon and Baela Targaryen were married in the sept on Dragonstone. The bride was sixteen, the groom nearly seventeen.

Several of the regents, outraged, urged Ser Tyland to appeal to the High Septon for an annulment, but the Hand’s own response was one of bemused resignation.

(Fire and Blood: The Hooded Hand)

The marriage took place without the leave, knowledge, or presence of King Aenys. When it became known, the two half-brothers quarreled bitterly. Nor was His Grace alone in his wroth. Manfred Hightower, father of Lady Ceryse, made protest to the king, demanding that Lady Alys be put aside.

Vexed and angry, King Aenys gave his brother a choice: put Alys Harroway aside and return to Lady Ceryse, or suffer five years of exile.

(Fire and Blood: The Sons of the Dragon)

Assuming the throne in 209 AC, Daeron’s second son, Aerys, had never imagined he would be king, and was singularly ill suited to sit the Iron Throne. Aerys was learned, in his way, though his interests were largely to do with dusty tomes concerned with ancient prophecy and the higher mysteries. Wed to Aelinor Penrose, he never showed an interest in getting her with child, and rumor had it that he had even failed to consummate the marriage. His small council, at their wits’ ends, hoped it was simply some dislike of her that moved him, and thus they urged him to put her aside to take another wife. But he would not hear of it.

(The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys I)

As can be seen, there have been marriages which have been put aside or which have been petitioned to be put aside, which tells us it's possible. It's also worth keeping in mind that no one hearing of Renly's scheme questions it.

We also know Renly doesn't care about precedents:

"Tell me, what right did my brother Robert ever have to the Iron Throne?" He did not wait for an answer. "Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer." 

(A Clash of Kings, Catelyn II)

It's very in-character for him to concoct a scheme without keeping in mind legalities.

Everyone else in the Small Council knew

Barristan didn't know.

Littlefinger has a spy network.

Varys also has a spy network.

Stannis only found out after 12 years of being in the capital, and it's also hinted that someone told him.

"He accuses my brother and sister of incest. I wonder how he came by that suspicion."

"Perhaps he read a book and looked at the color of a bastard's hair, as Ned Stark did, and Jon Arryn before him. Or perhaps someone whispered it in his ear." The eunuch's laugh was not his usual giggle, but deeper and more throaty.

"If you were not this whisperer, who was?"

"Some traitor, doubtless."

Varys tightened the cinch.

"Littlefinger?"

"I named no name."

(A Clash of Kings, Tyrion III)

Then Stannis went to Jon Arryn:

“Lord Stannis,” [Catelyn] asked, “if you knew the queen to be guilty of such monstrous crimes, why did you keep silent?”

“I did not keep silent,” Stannis declared. “I brought my suspicions to Jon Arryn.”

(A Clash of Kings, Catelyn III)

They investigated, Jon Arryn looking up genealogies in the book and he and Stannis looking up Robert's bastards.

However no one even hints at Renly knowing about the incest. Neither does anyone mention Renly investigating things in the capital.

Keep in mind that Renly was only around 20 in A Game of Thrones. It's safe to assume he became Master of Laws only when he was 16, so that's only around 4 years in King's Landing.

Why was Renly so scared of Cersei when Robert's dying? It makes no sense unless he knew about the incest!

That's patently untrue.

Consider what kind of person Cersei is. Cruel, and very overprotective of her children's rights.

She wanted Arya to lose a hand for striking Joffrey:

Ned Stark's daughter had run off after her wolf savaged Joff, you'll recall. My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand. The old penalty, for striking one of the blood royal. Robert told her she was cruel and mad. They fought for half the night . . . well, Cersei fought, and Robert drank. 

(A Feast for Crows, Jaime IV)

Let's think about another protective mother, Catelyn:

Catelyn said nothing. Let Ned work it out in his own mind; her voice would not be welcome now. Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn’s own grandchildren for Winterfell.

(A Game of Thrones, Catelyn I)

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."

(A Storm of Swords, Jon XII)

Catelyn wanted Jon gone because he or his children could threaten her children's claim to Winterfell. The same would hold true for Renly, being the uncle of Cersei's children, he could challenge their claim on the Iron Throne. He could even be made Regent to the children, which would ensure a bitter power struggle between him and Cersei. There's no need for Renly to know of the incest to fear Cersei.

The Lannisters are regarded to be treacherous:

"Not our men," Ned said patiently. "Lannister men. The lion of Lannister flew over the ramparts, not the crowned stag. And they had taken the city by treachery."

(A Game of Thrones, Eddard II)

He swore to trade her for his brother," she said numbly. "Sansa and Arya both. We would have them back if we returned his precious Jaime, he swore it before the whole court. How could he marry her, after saying that in sight of gods and men?"

"He's the Kingslayer's brother. Oathbreaking runs in their blood." Robb's fingers brushed the pommel of his sword.

(A Storm of Swords- Catelyn IV)

So more than enough reason for Renly to fear Cersei even without the incest.

In my opinion, Renly's suggestion to Ned supports the argument that Renly didn't know.

Lord Renly took a step back, taut as a bowstring. "Every moment you delay gives Cersei another moment to prepare. By the time Robert dies, it may be too late … for both of us.

(A Game of Thrones, Eddard X)

When Robert is dying, Renly asks Ned to sieze the Regency and take Cersei's children in hand. He is genuinely scared of Cersei siezing power.

So why then didn't he tell Ned about the incest?

Cersei would be executed, and her children as well. One can say: Because Ned wouldn't believe him. But in that very instance he was planning on storming the Red Keep and potentially dying. If he thought that risk was worth it, why not this one? One can say: Because Stannis would be king. But again, storming the Red Keep is much more dangerous than assassinating Stannis once he comes to the capital.

Alternatively, he could have told Robert on his deathbed, like Ned planned to do but which he could not make himself do.

So that's my argument for why Renly didn't know about the incest. Since it's so widely accepted as fact that he did know, I had to put it out there.