#spider ball python morph

[fellowshipofthenoodles]

I put her on the stick so that I could spot clean and she did not approve or appreciate it

“She looks like bad taxidermy.”- @starlightorchestra

[slinkies-and-dragons]

It's snake weighing day this morning! Keep reading to see all the babies!

A little context on these cuties.

They were found abandoned in an apartment, and we're pretty confident they were a breeding setup. Because they're adopted, we don't know all of their morphs, so if you recognize any please let us know!

First up is Cali.

Yes. She is a spider morph. If you're unfamiliar with them, they are (as far as we're concerned) an unethical morph because they are prone (by which I mean I have never heard of one without) to a nervous system condition known as wobbles. This can present in varying degrees of severity, and is often very stressful for the animal. If you want to get a ball python, and the breeder you're looking at offers spider morphs, please do not support them.

That being said, we're monitoring her closely to see how severe her wobble is, as she has already shown that she has one. She is a beautiful snake and if her quality of life isn't too bad, we'll be keeping her around, but if she's unable to live well we have already made the decision to not let her suffer.

At this time, she is not showing severe symptoms, and I'm hoping she will be able to spend many years with us.

She weighed in at 1242g and is roughly 47 inches long.

Next is Ato! She weighed in at 778g and is roughly 33 inches long. She's our shortest!

After her, we have Hym! Our only new male, he weighs 1498g and is roughly 48 inches long. A big guy!

After Hym is Terp! She weighed in at 1126g and is about 40 inches long. Terp has a bump on her snoot that the vet believes is akin to a callus, but we're going to keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn't grow.

Pom is next! She's our littlest, but not shortest!, weighing in at 621g and measuring around 40 inches.

And last but not least is Nia! Our biggest new addition, she weighs a nice 1530g and is around 48 inches in length! She had the biggest poo I've ever seen this morning and was scooty because of it, so she was a little hard to measure and she may or may not be longer than 48.

Nia has a stubby little tail, and we're hoping she's just ~like that~, but we're gonna make sure we keep an eye out for potential stuck shed issues because of it.

We're pretty confident Nia is a high melanin morph, but we could be wrong!

So them's the girls (and Hym)!!

We'd love to hear your thoughts on their morphs! We're going to do some research ourselves too, but I think it'd be fun to see what others think :)

[nohiketoosmall]

snakebrosbelike.jpeg

[morroodle]

I went to a reptile expo yesterday and had an amazing time and took about 150 photos but tumblr is stupid and only lets me share 10 of them on one post so I'll just give some of my favorites

I got to hold a baby beardie! They're soooo tiny and so cute <333 seeing the other adult beardies made me realize that my girl Tanzi was TINY. She was just a little lady compared to the others! Also I may or may not have cried a lot a little when I pet a beardie again for the first time.

There were so many cool and pretty and unique animals I am so sad I can't share more of them. I love all the ball python morphs and now im more determined than ever to get my own little fella. I think I'll go with a pastel morph if I can, they're so pretty to me. Also reminder please do not support the spider morph it causes neurological defects in the snakes and that is not good it is unethical.

I think if I had to pick a winner for the most unique animal I found it would be this scaleless (aka silky) bearded dragon

This man is naked! They stole his spikes! His name was Chicken Wing and he used to have a friend but his friend chomped his tail like an asshole and so was banished. I got to pet him and oh man they feel so weird and so cool. Very soft!

[reptiphoric]

So every so often I make the (poor) decision to peruse my local craigslist ads to see what's looking good in the neighborhood. Well, today I came across an ad posted by someone who needed to rehome their ball python since they're moving soon and couldn't take her with, and as you all know I'm always more than happy to take in a spider morph if it means keeping one more off of the breeding market...

Everyone say hi to Tipsy!

[fimbry]

what's the issue with spider ball pythons exactly? i'm not planning on getting one but your tags are the first time i've heard there being problems

They're the original wobbler. These days there are many genes that wobble, but spiders were the first. Wobble = snake lacks motor control and ability to tell up from down, leading their movements to be unnatural, frightening, "corkscrewing" and at rest they wobble around.

For decades people have insisted this was fine, it could be bred out. People insisted that THEIR spiders didn't wobble, only the spiders of THOSE OTHER BAD BREEDERS wobbled. They just needed some outcrossing and it would be fine, which they had "responsibly" done!

Of course none of this was true. Spiders have been around for ~25 years and they wobble now just as much as they did back then, and they're one of the most outcrossed, possibly THE most outcrossed, gene in ball pythons.

The gene that causes the pattern mutation also causes an inner ear deformity leading to terrible balance issues. It is also random, as in the baby can have it worse than the parent, and vice versa. Some have it so bad they have to be euthanized at hatching. It can't be bred out, they all have it to varying degrees.

Relevant study

If the "we can breed it out!" and "MY spiders DON'T wobble, unlike those other bad breeder's spiders!" rhetoric sounds familiar, it should. You will hear that same song regarding any mutation that is tied to something detrimental, and breeders who invested thousands into their projects are seldom easily deterred.

Literally the only case I've heard of where the pattern/color mutation was NOT tied to the detrimental effect is the granite morph in carpet pythons. When this morph was new, it was inbred to hell and back which lead to kinked spines and short lifespans, weakness, failure to thrive, etc. It was so bad that the entire gene was nearly lost at one point. After more people got this morph and outcrossed it appropriately, these negatives disappeared and the gene is much healthier these days. These weaknesses were due to the inbreeding, not to the morph itself, and it did not take long to figure this out.

(One thing of note, I do think the lavender morph in false water cobras can be saved much the same way, but jury is still out. Right now they have the same problems the granite carpets did, but they were similarly inbred and mass produced horrifically.)

Now if I had to list every detrimental morph where inbreeding wasn't the cause, and it WAS the gene, well, the list would be long as hell and growing.

[medevacreptiles]

Jar Jar Binks (JJB) 2013 1.0 spider

[mossiestpiglet]

[ID: tags reading “#hey op I don’t know ajything about snake morphs can you tell me more about why you don’t support breeding this one? #very curious” End ID]

I ended up writing way more than was asked for but I like snakes to much to stop, so the short version: it’s not possible to breed spider morphs without the neurological condition called wobble, some will have mild cases but all will be affected to some extent during some part of their lives, and the homozygous form is 100% lethal.

And the long version:

No problem! I love talking snakes and am very passionate about ethical keeping, which ethical breeding is a big part of.

This little guy here is a ball python who is visual for two morphs:

Mahogany - this makes him a little darker, more chocolaty brown than the wild type, especially noticeable on his belly which is a much darker tan than the white/near white bellies of the wild type (it’s a little washed out in the photo, he is darker in reality). Mahogany is incomplete dominant, so this phenotype is caused by just one copy of the gene. Having two copies creates a snake which is largely patternless and more solidly brown all over (called super mahogany/suma). There are no known health issues with this morph or the super form.

Spider - this is the morph that is more easily seen in him because spider heavily affects pattern. It causes the disruption of the ball python pattern to create that drippy stripped look, with much black coverage compared to the wild type. Because it’s so visually striking, it’s very popular, however all spider ball pythons have a neurological condition called wobble which will affect them to different extents and can change in intensity throughout their lives. Wobble cannot be bred out of the morph, is is another phenotype of the same mutation that produces the spider pattern. In addition to all spiders having wobble, it is also an incomplete dominant mutation. The phenotype of my animal and all living spiders is from having one copy of the spider allele, if an animal has two copies they will almost certainly not survive embryonic development, and the few that do hatch will die shortly after. In the hobby this is phrased as “super spider is lethal”.

My particular animal has what myself and my vet consider a mild-moderate case. His head always shakes very slightly when he moves, and it’s especially noticeable when handling; he’s had some eating issues in the past but he’s much better at striking than many wobbley snakes are. Feeding is one of the biggest quality of life issues in snakes with wobble, as any time they are nervous or excited they are likely to have greater issues. This can cause them to be unable to strike at food, to wrap it properly, missing repeatedly could stress them out and cause them to give up and miss meals, or they may miss and hit something else which could cause injury or mean ingesting something they shouldn’t (I had a moss incident with Orville recently and now he’s going to have to be fed on a plastic plate to avoid a repeat). Wobble probably also gets worse with age and will definitely get worse with poor husbandry, which unfortunately most captive ball pythons are still living in. Because it can be degenerative, I had my vet see him right away so that we would both have a baseline understanding of where he was starting out and be able to monitor his wobble as he ages to see if it worsens and if it becomes a quality of life problem.

As I said in the op, I was given Orville for free and that was actually because I have chatted with the breeder at many past shows and he’s who my female bp (who has all issue-free morphs) was purchased from and he trusted my husbandry to be able to take care of and work with a baby snake whose wobble at the time seemed a little more severe than it is now. While I don’t agree with all of his breeding practices, he is someone who takes husbandry quite seriously so I hope that he changes and gets out of breeding spiders.

[image id: a young ball python half curled up on top of a piece of cork bark, with more cork bark behind. End id.]

I thought Orville was just having a fun day of basking on his bark, but no actually he pooped in his warm hide and just was asking me to clean it.

(He’s a spider morph I was given for free, I don’t condone the breeding or sale of spider complex bps)

[bunjywunjy]

What is your take on domestic breeding? Is it unethical in the sense that there's plenty of "mixed breed" animals out there that need homes in shelters? Is it unethical in the sense that it's natural for breeds / genetics to mix and actively to do the opposite prevents diversity? I've had mixed feelings on it for a while lol

I think you're allowed to do whatever you want as long as you're using a species that was already domesticated, treating the animals well, giving them everything they need to truly thrive on top of being breeding stock, and breeding for health and genetic stability as well as whatever trait you're looking for.

[looking at YOU on that last one, spider morph ball pythons, scottish folds and pugs >:( ]

[kragehund-est]

it's easy to say "ban harmful breeding practices!" when the outcome is an animal you deem ugly or weird. make sure to raise awareness and bring that same energy for animals that look unremarkable or even beautiful. not all issues are as noticeable as a wheezing pug, but they can be be just as painful for the animal.

for example, unless you have some background knowledge, these animals might not look like anything special. do you recognize them?

satin coat guinea pig: these guinea pigs have glossy coats due to their hollow hairs that catch the light. that same gene also give them calcium absorption issues, leading to poor bone health and severe pain.

double merle coat aussie shepherd: when a dog has one merle gene, it has that beautiful blue merle coat aussie shepherds are famous for! if you breed together two dogs with this gene, 1/4 of their litter will inherit TWO copies of the gene, and will very likely be born deaf/blind.

scottish fold: these are a charming breed of cat with their ears folded over! that's because their cartilage isn't formed properly, leading to severe joint issues.

spider morph ball python: this morph (coat pattern) is known for its beautiful drippy pattern. the gene that gives them this pattern also causes the nervous system to develop improperly. many of these snakes are unable to live normally due to "spider wobble" syndrome that causes them to writhe and corkscrew uncontrollably.

scaleless bearded dragon: some enthusiasts like the unique smooth look of scaleless reptiles, unfortunately, a lizard that needs to sun itself without the natural protection of scales will end up burnt. also prone to infections, skin lesions, etc.

hybrid macaws: the ethics of breeding macaws are already extremely iffy. crossbreeding macaws? well this has most of the same issues but 10x worse. the extremely simplified argument is "we can't even breed pure macaws ethically, and you're breeding hybrids just for looks? you are scum"

[fellowshipofthenoodles]

Why would you change my water and make sure my humidity is okay??????

[ID: Dizzy the white and brown ball python poking her head out of her hide]

[kedreeva]

Sorry about the color mix up. I appreciate the reply and additional info! I guess bc I know nothing about peafowl (and the fact i dont breed any type of animal), I'm having a hard time understanding how being sterile would be unethical. I do somewhat get the shortened life span. I really would like to understand this, I just sometimes need stuff explained like I'm 5.

Up front, there's no "somewhat get" to a shortened lifespan being caused by a mutation in captive populations. If an animal is capable of living 20+ years (and some live 30+ or even 40+!) and some non-essential mutation is causing them to live 7-9 years, it's flat out absolutely unethical to breed that mutation, full stop, regardless of anything else going on. That's indicative of a MAJOR problem in their genetics. There's NO ethical reason to breed that because humans like how it looks. So, even without the sterility, these birds would 100% be unethical to produce.

The short answer on sterility is this: we don't know WHY they are sterile, but they shouldn't be, and that means something has gone wrong. When something goes wrong with an animal, and it's something genetic that can be passed on, the ONLY responsible and ethical thing for a breeder to do is to stop using that animal for breeding and closely monitor any already-produced offspring for signs of the problem, and likely not breed them, either.

The longer more complicated answer is this: sometimes it's possible to separate the problem from the aesthetic when it comes to morphs, like it was for cameo + blindness, but sometimes it's NOT, like it wasn't for spider + head wobble for ball pythons. In those instances, it's... difficult. Because you're LIKELY going to produce animals that suffer the same problem as their parent(s), in the attempt to separate the problem from the aesthetic, and sometimes that's ALL you're going to produce. As a breeder, it's your absolute responsibility to NOT release the offspring into the general population, where the problem may be replicated without control, and to keep or cull the affected individuals if the problem cannot be separated from the aesthetic, or AT BEST find them guaranteed pet-only homes that will NEVER breed them.

Sometimes the problem IS purely aesthetic or harmless, like it was for pied in peafowl, and sometimes it's not, like it was for vitiligo in peafowl. The problem comes when you ASSUME a mutation is the first, and treat it like the first when it's really the second. This has caused FAR reaching consequences in the peafowl community, and I'm sure in others, where now the autoimmune disease that first bronze had has been passed into genpop by folks who thought they were breeding a harmless new variation of pied. Hybrid animals are often sterile (not in peafowl though, hybrid cristatus-muticus birds are fertile) because of a mismatch in chromosome pairing numbers, and often that's harmless. So, in some cases sterility is not an issue because it's the expected result or is otherwise harmless... but in the case of peafowl, it's NOT an expected result and we don't know if it's caused by something harmless or not.

Some species, like mice and horses and cattle and dogs, genetic testing and DNA mapping done with millions of dollars has proven that while some stuff isn't purely aesthetic, it also doesn't cause harm to the animal in a way that affects quality of life or that can be adapted for in captive care. For example, in chickens, the frizzle gene causes curled feathers in single copy and an absence of feathers in double copy. This gene is considered ethical to produce IF the breeding is done responsibly by putting a single copy bird over a zero copy bird, which produces smooth coats and frizzle coats, but it is unethical to produce double frizzles (called "frazzles") because frazzles cannot thermoregulate, can easily sunburn, and easily suffer skin injury during normal chicken activity.

For peafowl, we have NO genetic testing. We do not have the genome mapped. As far as I know there's a research group working on it (mostly for green peafowl though, in conservation efforts), but that's not remotely finished or available to the public to test anything. We don't know where any of the morph mutations sit, or what is causing them or if they do anything beyond just change the color. Sometimes color mutations are the result of malfunctions in enzymes. For charcoal specifically, we don't know what the mutation does, besides what we can observe on the outside- the birds have half or less the lifespan of normal birds, poor feather quality, and the hens are sterile. Is the sterility harmless like it is in some hybrid animals, or is it actually a major organ failing? Is it the only major organ that fails due to this mutation, or is it just the first sign of their shortened lives? Is it some deficiency in something the birds need to be healthy? Does it hurt the bird? We don't know, but we do know the mutation and the problems (multiple, please do NOT forget that this is one OF MORE THAN ONE problems) can't be separated, and so until we do know why and whether it's harmless or not, the ONLY ethical response to seeing a problem in a major organ's function linked inextricably to a mutation in color is to not propagate that mutation. If someone wanted to fork over the millions it takes to sequence and map genomes and then determine exactly what is going on with peafowl, that would be nice and good, but I don't see that happening. When I win the lottery big, I'll be doing it, but til then we can only follow normal breeding guidelines

Also, to put this into perspective... peafowl mature sexually around 3 years old. They are chicks until the turn of the new year following their hatch. They are yearlings that year, and immature 2yo next year. They aren't actually considered fully grown until 6 years old, and should live another 14+ years. Charcoal birds die a 1-3 years after full maturity. Is it a coincidence that they fail to thrive shortly after full sexual maturity, or is it linked? Again, we don't know. We don't know if the sterility is fine or if it's just a symptom of something worse.

Even without the sterility, though, charcoal has enough issues it would be unethical. If it was JUST sterility, with no other deleterious effects, then maybe it would be different. But it's not.

[h0wdidig3there]

one of my favorite ships is between Garmadon and Vinny, but only in specific situations this goes for most of the things I ship

The qualifications for this specific ship is that it has to be With the head canon of either Misako being awful or Misako not giving a shit and that Vinny cannot be human otherwise the age gap makes me feel weird and no, we’re not talking about the fact that Misako is also way younger than Garmadon because I’m not even convinced of that fact either considering she was alive during the serpentine wars I’m not entirely convinced this woman is human if she is she’s got some damn good genetics to be alive for that long and still be able to have a child and then be able to run let alone walk once said child is an adult

Also, this is what my version of Vinny looks like, enjoy

Yes, he is a piebald spider morph ball python naga also because he is a spider morph he has issues with coordination that will not stop him from pursuing his passion of filming stuff though

[snakepeeker]

I almost fully agree, the only things I would add are:

1) It is not sertain what is a sertain biochemical cause of wobble, but it is for sure linked with spider morph.

2) There are other morphs and combinations of morphs that linked with wobble/bug eyes/kinks/etc. Be on lookout when looking for a pet.

3) Spider pythons with a lot of other genes (previously breeders, basically) should be able to be sold as pet only, as it is a project that look significant amount of investment.

4) Breeders should abandon spider project, keep in check and inform customers about snakes with wobble syndrome parents.

is reptiblr still a thing

what’s the 2023 opinion on spider ball pythons

do we still hate Brian Barczyk

[is-the-owl-video-cute]

what’s the thing with the spider morphs?

ball pythons are often bred for different colors or patterns. Spider is the name of a pattern that is tied to a gene that causes neurological issues that are fairly varied in severity. The spider wobble is what they call the drunken stumbling of snakes with spider pattern caused by neurological and balance issues.

Many spider ball pythons are failure to thrive, many others must be forcefed every meal they eat, and a small percentage can navigate “okay” and eat on their own with difficulty.

People justify breeding them in various ways, but ultimately you’re intentionally breeding an animal you know will hatch with a mutation that negatively affects quality of life.

[unigalvacron]

Question- anyone familiar with ball python morphs? I'm trying to test my knowledge... the first two pictures are of my presumed normal female, Athena. She also looks like she's maybe het for pied considering the tracks near the base of her tail.

The last two are of a newly rehomed/adopted snakes named King. He looks like a variant of normal... however there's just something is telling me there's something else in there. The webbing pattern and skull like figure (on his head) give me spider mix perhaps?

Thoughts? Opinions?