#spider ball python morph

[fellowshipofthenoodles]

I put her on the stick so that I could spot clean and she did not approve or appreciate it

“She looks like bad taxidermy.”- @starlightorchestra

[is-the-snake-video-cute]

Is it only spider morphs with blotchy headstamps? Or can other ball python morphs have that too?

Blotchy-looking headstamps are very common in pretty much all pattern-disrupting morphs, I'm afraid. They're common in spiders and spider complex morphs, but they also show up in perfectly benign morphs that affect the snake's pattern, like in the pastel clown in the picture below.

Not a reliable indicator a snake is a spider morph, I'm afraid!

[slinkies-and-dragons]

It's snake weighing day this morning! Keep reading to see all the babies!

A little context on these cuties.

They were found abandoned in an apartment, and we're pretty confident they were a breeding setup. Because they're adopted, we don't know all of their morphs, so if you recognize any please let us know!

First up is Cali.

Yes. She is a spider morph. If you're unfamiliar with them, they are (as far as we're concerned) an unethical morph because they are prone (by which I mean I have never heard of one without) to a nervous system condition known as wobbles. This can present in varying degrees of severity, and is often very stressful for the animal. If you want to get a ball python, and the breeder you're looking at offers spider morphs, please do not support them.

That being said, we're monitoring her closely to see how severe her wobble is, as she has already shown that she has one. She is a beautiful snake and if her quality of life isn't too bad, we'll be keeping her around, but if she's unable to live well we have already made the decision to not let her suffer.

At this time, she is not showing severe symptoms, and I'm hoping she will be able to spend many years with us.

She weighed in at 1242g and is roughly 47 inches long.

Next is Ato! She weighed in at 778g and is roughly 33 inches long. She's our shortest!

After her, we have Hym! Our only new male, he weighs 1498g and is roughly 48 inches long. A big guy!

After Hym is Terp! She weighed in at 1126g and is about 40 inches long. Terp has a bump on her snoot that the vet believes is akin to a callus, but we're going to keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn't grow.

Pom is next! She's our littlest, but not shortest!, weighing in at 621g and measuring around 40 inches.

And last but not least is Nia! Our biggest new addition, she weighs a nice 1530g and is around 48 inches in length! She had the biggest poo I've ever seen this morning and was scooty because of it, so she was a little hard to measure and she may or may not be longer than 48.

Nia has a stubby little tail, and we're hoping she's just ~like that~, but we're gonna make sure we keep an eye out for potential stuck shed issues because of it.

We're pretty confident Nia is a high melanin morph, but we could be wrong!

So them's the girls (and Hym)!!

We'd love to hear your thoughts on their morphs! We're going to do some research ourselves too, but I think it'd be fun to see what others think :)

[nohiketoosmall]

snakebrosbelike.jpeg

[morroodle]

I went to a reptile expo yesterday and had an amazing time and took about 150 photos but tumblr is stupid and only lets me share 10 of them on one post so I'll just give some of my favorites

I got to hold a baby beardie! They're soooo tiny and so cute <333 seeing the other adult beardies made me realize that my girl Tanzi was TINY. She was just a little lady compared to the others! Also I may or may not have cried a lot a little when I pet a beardie again for the first time.

There were so many cool and pretty and unique animals I am so sad I can't share more of them. I love all the ball python morphs and now im more determined than ever to get my own little fella. I think I'll go with a pastel morph if I can, they're so pretty to me. Also reminder please do not support the spider morph it causes neurological defects in the snakes and that is not good it is unethical.

I think if I had to pick a winner for the most unique animal I found it would be this scaleless (aka silky) bearded dragon

This man is naked! They stole his spikes! His name was Chicken Wing and he used to have a friend but his friend chomped his tail like an asshole and so was banished. I got to pet him and oh man they feel so weird and so cool. Very soft!

[reptiphoric]

So every so often I make the (poor) decision to peruse my local craigslist ads to see what's looking good in the neighborhood. Well, today I came across an ad posted by someone who needed to rehome their ball python since they're moving soon and couldn't take her with, and as you all know I'm always more than happy to take in a spider morph if it means keeping one more off of the breeding market...

Everyone say hi to Tipsy!

[fimbry]

what's the issue with spider ball pythons exactly? i'm not planning on getting one but your tags are the first time i've heard there being problems

They're the original wobbler. These days there are many genes that wobble, but spiders were the first. Wobble = snake lacks motor control and ability to tell up from down, leading their movements to be unnatural, frightening, "corkscrewing" and at rest they wobble around.

For decades people have insisted this was fine, it could be bred out. People insisted that THEIR spiders didn't wobble, only the spiders of THOSE OTHER BAD BREEDERS wobbled. They just needed some outcrossing and it would be fine, which they had "responsibly" done!

Of course none of this was true. Spiders have been around for ~25 years and they wobble now just as much as they did back then, and they're one of the most outcrossed, possibly THE most outcrossed, gene in ball pythons.

The gene that causes the pattern mutation also causes an inner ear deformity leading to terrible balance issues. It is also random, as in the baby can have it worse than the parent, and vice versa. Some have it so bad they have to be euthanized at hatching. It can't be bred out, they all have it to varying degrees.

Relevant study

If the "we can breed it out!" and "MY spiders DON'T wobble, unlike those other bad breeder's spiders!" rhetoric sounds familiar, it should. You will hear that same song regarding any mutation that is tied to something detrimental, and breeders who invested thousands into their projects are seldom easily deterred.

Literally the only case I've heard of where the pattern/color mutation was NOT tied to the detrimental effect is the granite morph in carpet pythons. When this morph was new, it was inbred to hell and back which lead to kinked spines and short lifespans, weakness, failure to thrive, etc. It was so bad that the entire gene was nearly lost at one point. After more people got this morph and outcrossed it appropriately, these negatives disappeared and the gene is much healthier these days. These weaknesses were due to the inbreeding, not to the morph itself, and it did not take long to figure this out.

(One thing of note, I do think the lavender morph in false water cobras can be saved much the same way, but jury is still out. Right now they have the same problems the granite carpets did, but they were similarly inbred and mass produced horrifically.)

Now if I had to list every detrimental morph where inbreeding wasn't the cause, and it WAS the gene, well, the list would be long as hell and growing.

[hemo-goblin-a1c]

Ah, yes, my favorite bp morphs

Butter Fly, Dream Sicle, and I Vory

Spried, Stpoinose

And of course Ultrame and Strinted

[medevacreptiles]

Jar Jar Binks (JJB) 2013 1.0 spider

[coelacat]

grinding my teeth clenching my fists blood starts dripping from my eyes ears and nose. i dont need to run a gimmick blog better than someone else

[fellowshipofthenoodles]

Why would you change my water and make sure my humidity is okay??????

[ID: Dizzy the white and brown ball python poking her head out of her hide]

[is-the-snake-video-cute]

I'm writing a paper on the reasons to not support spider morphs. Can you link me to some good links for this as well as share anything you know too? tia!!

Check out my "spider wobble" tag, I have quite a few posts in there on how the spider wobble works and how it affects snakes!

I don't know what level of technicality you're looking for with your paper, but here's a recent article that presents strong evidence for the wobble being caused by inner ear malformations. It's important because it indicates the wobble is inherent to the morph and lets us know how it affects snakes (probably like constant vertigo).

[lizrdsnot]

ok. im definitely not the sharpest tool in the shed but. i feel like i am SURROUNDEDDD by the dumbest motherfuckers alive. i do not know how to cope with this, it just makes me mad. how is everyone so stupid

[mossiestpiglet]

[ID: tags reading “#hey op I don’t know ajything about snake morphs can you tell me more about why you don’t support breeding this one? #very curious” End ID]

I ended up writing way more than was asked for but I like snakes to much to stop, so the short version: it’s not possible to breed spider morphs without the neurological condition called wobble, some will have mild cases but all will be affected to some extent during some part of their lives, and the homozygous form is 100% lethal.

And the long version:

No problem! I love talking snakes and am very passionate about ethical keeping, which ethical breeding is a big part of.

This little guy here is a ball python who is visual for two morphs:

Mahogany - this makes him a little darker, more chocolaty brown than the wild type, especially noticeable on his belly which is a much darker tan than the white/near white bellies of the wild type (it’s a little washed out in the photo, he is darker in reality). Mahogany is incomplete dominant, so this phenotype is caused by just one copy of the gene. Having two copies creates a snake which is largely patternless and more solidly brown all over (called super mahogany/suma). There are no known health issues with this morph or the super form.

Spider - this is the morph that is more easily seen in him because spider heavily affects pattern. It causes the disruption of the ball python pattern to create that drippy stripped look, with much black coverage compared to the wild type. Because it’s so visually striking, it’s very popular, however all spider ball pythons have a neurological condition called wobble which will affect them to different extents and can change in intensity throughout their lives. Wobble cannot be bred out of the morph, is is another phenotype of the same mutation that produces the spider pattern. In addition to all spiders having wobble, it is also an incomplete dominant mutation. The phenotype of my animal and all living spiders is from having one copy of the spider allele, if an animal has two copies they will almost certainly not survive embryonic development, and the few that do hatch will die shortly after. In the hobby this is phrased as “super spider is lethal”.

My particular animal has what myself and my vet consider a mild-moderate case. His head always shakes very slightly when he moves, and it’s especially noticeable when handling; he’s had some eating issues in the past but he’s much better at striking than many wobbley snakes are. Feeding is one of the biggest quality of life issues in snakes with wobble, as any time they are nervous or excited they are likely to have greater issues. This can cause them to be unable to strike at food, to wrap it properly, missing repeatedly could stress them out and cause them to give up and miss meals, or they may miss and hit something else which could cause injury or mean ingesting something they shouldn’t (I had a moss incident with Orville recently and now he’s going to have to be fed on a plastic plate to avoid a repeat). Wobble probably also gets worse with age and will definitely get worse with poor husbandry, which unfortunately most captive ball pythons are still living in. Because it can be degenerative, I had my vet see him right away so that we would both have a baseline understanding of where he was starting out and be able to monitor his wobble as he ages to see if it worsens and if it becomes a quality of life problem.

As I said in the op, I was given Orville for free and that was actually because I have chatted with the breeder at many past shows and he’s who my female bp (who has all issue-free morphs) was purchased from and he trusted my husbandry to be able to take care of and work with a baby snake whose wobble at the time seemed a little more severe than it is now. While I don’t agree with all of his breeding practices, he is someone who takes husbandry quite seriously so I hope that he changes and gets out of breeding spiders.

[image id: a young ball python half curled up on top of a piece of cork bark, with more cork bark behind. End id.]

I thought Orville was just having a fun day of basking on his bark, but no actually he pooped in his warm hide and just was asking me to clean it.

(He’s a spider morph I was given for free, I don’t condone the breeding or sale of spider complex bps)

[bunjywunjy]

What is your take on domestic breeding? Is it unethical in the sense that there's plenty of "mixed breed" animals out there that need homes in shelters? Is it unethical in the sense that it's natural for breeds / genetics to mix and actively to do the opposite prevents diversity? I've had mixed feelings on it for a while lol

I think you're allowed to do whatever you want as long as you're using a species that was already domesticated, treating the animals well, giving them everything they need to truly thrive on top of being breeding stock, and breeding for health and genetic stability as well as whatever trait you're looking for.

[looking at YOU on that last one, spider morph ball pythons, scottish folds and pugs >:( ]

[kragehund-est]

it's easy to say "ban harmful breeding practices!" when the outcome is an animal you deem ugly or weird. make sure to raise awareness and bring that same energy for animals that look unremarkable or even beautiful. not all issues are as noticeable as a wheezing pug, but they can be be just as painful for the animal.

for example, unless you have some background knowledge, these animals might not look like anything special. do you recognize them?

satin coat guinea pig: these guinea pigs have glossy coats due to their hollow hairs that catch the light. that same gene also give them calcium absorption issues, leading to poor bone health and severe pain.

double merle coat aussie shepherd: when a dog has one merle gene, it has that beautiful blue merle coat aussie shepherds are famous for! if you breed together two dogs with this gene, 1/4 of their litter will inherit TWO copies of the gene, and will very likely be born deaf/blind.

british fold: these are a charming breed of cat with their ears folded over! that's because their cartilage isn't formed properly, leading to severe joint issues.

spider morph ball python: this morph (coat pattern) is known for its beautiful drippy pattern. the gene that gives them this pattern also causes the nervous system to develop improperly. many of these snakes are unable to live normally due to "spider wobble" syndrome that causes them to writhe and corkscrew uncontrollably.

scaleless bearded dragon: some enthusiasts like the unique smooth look of scaleless reptiles, unfortunately, a lizard that needs to sun itself without the natural protection of scales will end up burnt. also prone to infections, skin lesions, etc.

hybrid macaws: the ethics of breeding macaws are already extremely iffy. crossbreeding macaws? well this has most of the same issues but 10x worse. the extremely simplified argument is "we can't even breed pure macaws ethically, and you're breeding hybrids just for looks? you are scum"