#sometimes shounen manga is just....... poorly executed according to different cultural standards

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🤝🤝🤝 it really is fun to discuss and like, work through these feelings.... I ended up writing a lot about One Piece as a show and its tone, which is one of my favorite things to ramble about, so, you know! thanks for the opportunity. ahaha

omg I felt the same re: "frustrated that Ace's death wasn't really mentioned post time-skip until Dressrosa really". Like, I get that the time-skip was meant to speed up Luffy's training as well as his grieving, but I was still kind of unprepared as a viewer to enjoy things like the Sabaody reunion and Fishman Island Arc. Maybe it would've been different if I hadn't been bingeing the show and instead had been watching/reading it week-by-week? That way as a fan we'd have had time to process, like Luffy did... but...... hmmm :\\

I don't want to spoil too much (I'll try to be vague!!!), but there are a few other characters that die in later arcs, but to your point, they're mostly side characters, and especially ones that feel like part of the "older generation".

Mmmm regarding Ace's death as a "punishment" I'm still uncertain... Like, I think Oda maybe meant to frame it differently (but didn't execute it 100% perfectly, since some fans clearly walked away from Marfineford blaming Ace for what happened :[ ). Oda gives a few current-timeline characters (like Whitebeard!) deaths that focus on how they were taking a stand for honor/the ones they love/an ideal they had/etc, and those deaths seem like badges of honor in a weird way? I know that's a terrible way to word it, but I'm having trouble getting at it--but it's that thing that shounen manga does a lot, where honor is such a tangible virtue that dying with integrity (especially in some badass show of strength) is framed as more valuable than living with ''''cowardice''''.

(Which makes me think about the toxic masculinity in a lot of shounen stories, when they frame being "tough" as better than being "weak"/vulnerable/asking for help. Though I'm generalizing like, a tonnnnn here 😅. But still, in a One Piece world where there wasn't so much emphasis on characters shouldering suffering alone to be manly (thinking of like, Zoro insisting on taking Kuma's pain thing instead of Sanji, or... some more stuff in Wano I don't want to spoil 😂)—in a One Piece world like that, Ace wouldn't have ended up in that final predicament anyway!!)

I very much agree with everything you said about Luffy's Journey... especially "we're told that it adds weight more than we're shown that it does". Like, Sabo's post-timeskip actions fit with that too—we get one quick, and admittedly very heartbreaking scene of him becoming aware of Ace's death......... and then he's fine! Ready to go kick some ass and protect Luffy and do what needs to be done. Though, again, this kind of feels like a One Piece... trait? I don't want to say flaw, bc tbh I like the overall tone of One Piece, but a lot of characters (Nami, Sanji, Robin, most SHs 😂) go through deeply traumatic things and then act just kind of... "normal" within a couple episodes? I guess? Anyway, it would have hit a lot harder/more effectively if we did get just a little more direct evidence of Luffy being changed.

But thennnn like........ I don't know if it would still feel like One Piece at that point! Like, I saw some bit of trivia that I'm 65% sure is true, that Oda confirmed in one of those Q&A things, that Luffy has nightmares about Marineford. (actually, there's a one-off line about Sabo having nightmares, too!) That detail's incredibly touching and adds so much depth, but I also do think I'd be kind of put off if I actually saw something like that in an episode of the anime. Like, OP walks this weird line by having some intensely dark moments, but never giving them too much weight/attention so that the optimistic tone is carefully preserved. Comparing it to a show like Attack on Titan (which I stopped watching bc I honestly got sick of characters being killed off for shock value and people thinking that was good writing), I'd much rather have One Piece's manner of showing death and grief...

ajksgldfh I keep saying this and then waffling, but ok yes. 100% agree about Ace and Worth. Like, through a shounen manga lens, I can see Oda really thinking Ace had a full satisfying emotional arc. But when you start applying anything even slightly more nuanced to it/more modern thinking, he clearly had so much hurt left to resolve. Totally heartbreaking, totally agree, ugh.

Hm!!!!! What you said about the live action!!!!! god part of me is terrified for my heart if they do make it to the Marineford Arc, and the other part of me is terrified they won't. 😂 But dang it'd be cool to see an Oda-approved........ alternative? Or just, yeah, what changes would they make, considering they've already tweaked a few other plot points to make them stronger or more appealing to a more modern audience!!

I just watched MelonTeee's video on Ace and Worth and man the internal debate I have with myself on whether I agree with the choice or not...

Her video explains the fandom's love for the character so well, as well as why the tragedy hit so hard. For me personally I have not been that affected by a character death in a LONG time.

And I understand it from a certain narrative perspective – mainly how Ace's past continues to feature in the story a decade later, and Whitebeard's line that someone would carry Ace's flame, because that clearly describing Luffy. He goes after the mera mera no mi and finishes what Ace started in Wano.

But there are two major narrative reasons given for Ace's death that I disagree with. And are largely why I think it shouldn't have happened, and also why the death has hit me so hard.

This is going to get long, but I would really love to hear everyone's thoughts on it if you choose to read!

To give Luffy the push he needed to be stronger: I am pretty confident this is Oda's stated reason (in addition to Oda wanting to prove he could kill characters which I guess he said at one point and which is bleh). Anyway. That push already happened on Sabaody when Luffy lost everyone to Duma. He was HELPLESS. More helpless than he was through most of marineford. And when Rayleigh convinces Luffy to do the 2 years training, Rayleigh only brings up their epic defeat on Sabaody. He does not bring up marineford or Ace's death as a reason Luffy needs to get stronger. Because Luffy did not need that reason. The only argument I can think of is that maybe once he landed on Amazon Lily, and he realized the strawhats were likely alive, the terror he felt on Sabaody abated slightly. And therefore maybe he needed a reminder of what "loss" truly is to re-motivate him. However, I don't think that is really fitting with his character or the story.

Ace's dream was fulfilled: Oda has talked about the reason he doesn't kill villains is because not having your dream fulfilled is a worse fate than death. I think part of the tragedy of Ace's death was that his dream wasn't fulfilled. Even for those who accept his last words - that he had only one regret which was not seeing Luffy accomplish his dream - the amount of time he got to live with that dream was literally the last moments of his life. But I don't think just because you die with no regrets, does not mean your dream is fulfilled. Especially when Ace never truly internalized what his dream was. His final choice to turn around showed HOW MUCH he still was that lonely, scared little kid he was at 10 despite his warm smile and his growing family. The most heartbreaking part of the flashback was not Sabo's death. It was watching Ace asking the question "do I deserve to exist?" and giving all his devotion to those who said yes. It was him making the exact same decision he would make 10 years later, to refuse to run, because he felt like if he ran he would lose everything and Luffy was standing behind him. Ace's final words do more than state he has no regrets. He also gives the answer to the question he'd asked Garp, and that Garp had said only his actions could decide. Ace died thanking Luffy and his family for loving him despite the "worthless" or "good for nothing" person he was. Ace was moved to tears to hear his family emphatically saying "YES. You do deserve to live! We want you to live!" But Ace never actually believed it. His last words were a reflection of gratitude for the love he was given that he didn't feel he deserved. And thus his final answer to the question "Do I deserve to exist?" was no.

That he was too "good" This is kind of the most upsetting one I've heard (thankfully not a lot) and also the one easiest to dismiss. Ace, being the actual son of the pirate king, being super powerful, growing in strength and reputation faster than Luffy (debatable), put him narratively in competition with Luffy. What I mean by that is it positions him as too much the golden character, the mary sue, the typical protagonist, when One Piece is about Luffy's story, not Ace's. I disagree with the premise of seeing Ace's character that way. But also even he was "that" character, it's pretty clear Ace's dream would have taken him to becoming Whitebeard's heir - whose dream it was to build a family - while Luffy is Gol D Roger's heir. So Ace's journey would have supported the main story of One Piece and also be narratively satisfying.

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What Was Ace's Dream?

The dreams Ace stated out loud were more reflections of his actual, deeper dream. "I want to be the king of the pirates" - because he wanted to prove his existence and his worth to the world. Which switched to "I want to make whitebeard the king of the pirates" - because Whitebeard loved him despite his blood, and so even if that wasn't what Whitebeard wanted, it was how Ace understood he could repay Whitebeard.

Both of those stated dreams get back to this question he'd been asking his whole life - that of worth. Worth and Love, which, for Ace's character, are inseparable.

For Ace's dream to truly be fulfilled, it's not enough for him to accept he was loved – which he did on the scaffolds, crying from happiness – he had to believe he was worth that love. He had to love himself.

Ace died with that dream tragically unfulfilled.

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The Purpose of One Piece

Of course the decision to kill Ace makes the story more realistic and of course it is heartbreaking, tragic, moving, and obviously inspires deeper discussion.

However, what rankled me from when I first learned about his death, which was way before I was even introduced to the character in Alabasta, was that he is the only character of the younger generation (outside of flashbacks) to die.

Honestly when I first heard Ace was one of the only characters to die, I was just worried it would make him seem weaker or stupider than every other character, which is a personal pet peeve of mine. Luckily for most fans, it didn't do that.

Instead, what wound up upsetting me was how it seemed to contradict the purpose of the story that is One Piece (at least what I think the purpose is). In doing so, it opposes the meaning that many fans find in this absurd, ridiculous, inspiring, heartfelt, heroic tale about a boy made of rubber.

One Piece is an escapist story about a boy named Luffy who inspires every good guy he meets to pursue and achieve their dream. It's also about Luffy beating up every bad guy who punishments are that they cannot fulfill their morally reprehensible dreams.

Because of Ace's premature death, he is the only good guy character in the main timeline who does not get to pursue his dream. And what's extra tragic is that he is also one of the most deserving of seeing his dream fulfilled.