#something about Kirkwall

[cirwedh]

New Tin Hat Theory from my husband:

Corypheus: “…for I have seen the throne of the gods and it was empty.”

If the fade reflects the physical world, maybe the throne was empty bc you weren’t sitting in it?

[vaguely-concerned]

Merrill banters I am thinking about all the time always 24/7

merrill truly will incessantly worry she's stupid and missing the point all the time and then take you out with the most beautifully worded and compassionate breakdown of the thematic spine of DA2 you've ever heard. no actually daisy I think you're the only one getting the point here slowly but surely

especially this one, actually: (also why I could see how bioware would bring merrill into DA:D on solas' side, but also I really really don't want them to because her arc is just -- it's just incredible and I don't want them to mess with it lol)

'I don't think people are cleansed by fire'. people make mistakes and you have to believe in them anyway. yeah basically that's the thesis of dragon age huh

[lunarharp]

played dragon age 2...just simple scribbles

[crows-of-buckets]

I cannot get the idea of a da2 au where Malcolm is the surviving parent instead of Leandra. Would both of the twins have made it out? I think they would. Because like. Malcolm, unlike Leandra, can actually fight. I don't think either of the twins would have felt the need to protect him. Would the deep roads expedition even have to happen? I assume they would probably be worse off in this au since I don't think Gamlen would lend his aid. Obviously ignoring the very valid reasons why Malcolm would NEVER take his children to Kirkwall, or anywhere near it, how different would it be? Idk why it's plaguing my head rn but LORD

[stop-breaking-my-heart-dragonage]

I'm not ready to shut up about Aveline and Carver--so, when you go see Aveline in Act 1, you can catch up with her a little bit and that's where this conversation can happen:

Aveline: "It's just one more change, though. The real end for me was Ostagar. What about you, Carver? You were there. Do you feel something similar?" Carver: No. Aveline: All right, then. Bit of a tit, your brother.

I wanted to see what she would say if Carver isn't in the party. Instead, she says this:

Aveline: Carver was there. I imagine he feels something similar. If he allows it.

......well, at least she didn't call him a tit?

[princehendir]

There's a lot of plot weirdness in dragon age that could've been solved with a single line of dialogue and it's possibly the most maddening thing about it

[vigilskeep]

the reason i do still want to try fhawke for my red hawke/anders disease sometime is that the visuals of the genuinely intimidating bloodthirsty brash young mercenary and their healer boyfriend who despite all this calls them sweetheart <3 really just get better

[corseque]

I keep looking at the trailers and hearing the voice overs and thinking how I don’t really care about Varric’s opinion on the situation, but maybe that’s the point.

I like Varric, but his retelling it as a story like DA2 is exactly what Solas resented the most in ancient times. Actually, given that line “they call me the Dread Wolf. what will they call you when all of this is over?” it makes me think that this is on purpose: Varric starting to fictionalize it (and that rubbing me the wrong way, the way it does solas, who was unable to control his legacy) seems like it might be a key point in the actual game

[varyathevillain]

Sebastian Vael would've been such a better character for the Dragon Age fandom to enjoy if in act 3 instead of the shitty "here, have a Leliana cameo and another proof there's Blood Magic Everywhere in Kirkwall, go fetch!" quest, we had a different one.

Let's say... Hawke has an option of investigating a weird deal between a chantry sister and a Starkhaven diplomat, and during it you uncover that the chantry has been embezzling from Starkhaven's treasury, as well as putting "former chantry members" (read: malleable or outright Chantry puppets) in the ruling circle which is currently holding Starkhaven afloat in absence of Sebastian as their Prince.

If Sebastian is not in the party as you uncover this, you have an option to either tell him about it, or investigate the questline further. If he is, however, in the party as you find the first notice of something being wrong between Chantry and Starkhaven relations, Sebastian will exclaim that this is a mistake, someone posing outside (or within) a Chantry to implicate either Starkhaven royalty, or Grand Cleric Elthina, and reference Sister Petrice. The moment you involve him in the questline, however, he'll be locked in for the investigation missions, and start getting special points in the code, one for each encounter (including the very first one starting the questline), for the final confrontation of the questline. The same happens if you start involving Sebastian at any other point of the questline, but with less and less points available.

As you progress, there would be three more quests to go through, one of which even takes you to either the outskirts of Starkhaven, or to the busy streets of it, allowing 1) to show another city state of Free Marches, 2) where Sebastian comes from, 3) actually be worth your money for the DLC, if ideal DA2 still had him as a DLC companion. Which I still hate with burning passion a decision, same with Javik being DLC in ME3.

The questline has chantry sisters and nobles implicated, Flora Harriman reaching out to Hawke about weird decisions made in Starkhaven politics, resembling what her mother did, and at a second quest there's even a possibility of you uncovering a chantry brother in a contract with a Desire demon. It seems like it all leads up to corruption in the political sphere and stragglers in the Chantry circles, right?

Except. On the final quest. It is revealed that Elthina, in her own handwriting, no forgery as confirmed by any rogue in the party, has forced Grand Cleric of Starkhaven to resign, installed her own puppet (one of the chantry sisters you might see in Act 1) as a new Grand Cleric, all for a bid of "uniting the Free Marches under the Chantry banner". It also implies that Sister Petrice was telling the truth, and that Elthina was, in fact, more involved with the unrest against Qunari than one would believe in the base game (I believe she was involved, but it's not majorly pertaining to this post in particular). There's a letter that implies Lady Harimann was allowed to do what she did, because Elthina believed she'd be able to manipulate Sebastian in favour of the Chantry. It also unveils how many people of Starkhaven were hurt by this. Turns out, a lot.

Then, you can go about this questline ending several ways.

This is where the points counting in the background come into play.

If you did not bring Sebastian alongside you on any of the missions, or if there aren't enough points for you to sway him... Sebastian will claim the evidence as plot against his support of the Chantry and Elthina specifically, and burn the letters in particular, calling them a "bad replica of what sister Petrice tried to do". Elthina, on prodding, feigns innocence, or if you have not talked to Sebastian yet, calls him in to discuss "this silly accusation", which gives +15 rivalry if you're not in a locked relationship with him. He still burns the letters, and accuses you of believing the conspirators, or even being one of them. There are some undertones in Elthina's dialogue to imply she's ready to blackmail you back if you press the matter, and Hawke has no choice but to back off.

If you bring Sebastian along and your relationship with him at this point is so-so, neither a full friendship or a rivalry, you'd need at least 3 points with favourable dialogue, this makes Sebastian question the Chantry, even Elthina. You'd need all 4 points (bringing him from the get go in your party when they rock up to the start of the questline) without going further into discussion for him to buckle. With friendship, you'd need to bring him on at least 2 missions, or 3 with favourable dialogue. With rivalry, however, you need for him to be brought only on one mission with favourable dialogue, the final one, after which he'll even say that "You (Hawke) were right about me needing to step up and rule Starkhaven". On two missions if you want to bicker with him throughout the quests instead.

If you would manage to sway Sebastian by the end, you'd have one final choice: support him in standing up and demanding answers from Elthina, or asking him to forgive her involvement.

Supporting him on Friendship is the simplest, but supporting him on Rivalry ends up in Sebastian switching to Friendship, like with Merrill reversing her Friendship in Mirror Image if you don't give her the Arulin'Holm. This ends up in a calmly voiced, but very angry Sebastian Vael, pure venom in his words, listing how Elthina has abused his trust and his people by using faith in the Chantry, and manipulating a Prince of a sovereign nation for her own means. If you supported him on Rivalry, he'll have additional lines on how you've challenged him to see problems with Chantry and Templar order, as well as to come back to Starkhaven, and outright thank you right in front of Elthina, whose eyes will throw daggers in your direction. At the end of the speech, Sebastian will actually start removing pieces of his armour, them clattering to the floor at Elthina's feet, and walk out alongside you out of the Kirkwall chantry.

However, if you ask him to forgive Elthina, he'll have the biggest rivalry (+30) jump in the game if you aren't in a Friendship, and will briefly lash out at you, saying that complacency with his devotion to the Chantry is what got him and his people into this mess. On Rivalry, it's worse. Instead of a calm but angry and vicious reprimand of Elthina's actions, Sebastian will SCREAM at her, throw evidence in her face, and then scream at you on Rivalry for good measure, about how you can't simply forgive someone who would seek ruin his city, and is actively ruining Kirkwall. How he was blind to Elthina's actions, but sees now that blood magic isn't the rot at the city's heart that is dividing the Circle and Templar order, it's Chantry politicians like Elthina. And instead of armour pieces clattering to the ground, they're thrown at the feet of the Andraste statue, while Sebastian outright declares that if Elthina doesn't cease machinations in Starkhaven, he'll rage war against her, specifically, and everyone who would support her. Then, he storms out, alone.

You can insert either a "there's nothing to talk about" with Elthina afterwards in both endings of this form, or promises of Hawke "never holding a position in this city aside from carrying the Amell name".

After that, you can find Sebastian, clad in a new armour (simple, reminiscent of what Alistair wears in his introduction scene in DAO, only with the Starkhaven symbol emblazoned on an archer chest piece), with a box in his arms, on the steps out of Hightown into Lowtown. He jokes about how his whole life in Kirkwall can, at the same time, be put into a small box like this one, and be something world encompassing. After a dialogue, where he tells you he is going to live in a small hovel in Lowtown, since he doesn't want to even see the chantry building, or talk with nobles who'd gladly eat him and people of Starkhaven alive, until the moment Kirkwall unrest is over, since he wants stability for you and your city as well. Also, he'd rather spend money on his people and those in need, not himself.

If romanced, or with certain persuasion options, you can invite him to live with you. You can still try to invite him with a couple of options, but he'll deny them for various reasons. After that, he'd live near the market; or, if you managed to convince him, in Hawke's mansion.

If in a romance, there's a hot makeout scene in the library which fades to black implying a proper sex scene. If not, he'll have amusing additional scenes with other companions, especially other love interests, with a bit of hostility from Isabela and Anders, and a lot of genuine fun from Fenris and Merrill.

When you talk with him alone (at either Lowtown hovel or at home in the Library), Sebastian discusses, on Friendship, how he is still Andrastian, even if Chantry failed him and his, or on Rivalry how he feels that blind devotion blinded him to Chantry mistakes.

Banter between party members also changes, with one dialogue from Merrill implying that Sebastian is now helping refugees and the poor, Fenris talking about his efforts in making an organisation for former templars/chantry members expelled for one reason or another, Anders being surprised at a late night visit where Sebastian covered in blood (not his) brought him herbs and potion flasks as a peace offering, et cetera. There's still tension over Sebastian belief in the Chant and Andraste, but it's not anymore about him having to perform for the Chantry and his public image.

If you don't complete the quest with this ending, Sebastian Vael still demands Anders to be executed, or he'll wage war. But if you do... he confesses that Anders has asked him to warn as many people in Lowtown and Darktown not to come to the Hightown and chantry, but assumed this would be because of Meredith and Orsino outright fighting in front of Elthina, not this... murder.

He will, however, draw his bow and point an arrow at Anders, saying that this was not the answer to help his cause, and Anders needs to pay now. Hawke can allow him to do that, or step in.

In a so-so relationship, if you choose anything else but "I will execute him myself" or relent to Sebastian's demand and let him shoot Anders? Vael will spit at your feet and leave your party and the conflict, resulting in a very similar ending to his character as in the original DA2, just less anti-mage and pro-Chantry.

However, in a Friendship or Rivalry, it's very easy to convince him to still stay at your side and see it through. With his unknowing help, many innocents of Kirkwall were saved, and now he has to stick around to help as well, and to either see Anders pay for his crimes with work and healing, not redemption through martyr-like murder, or to understand that this, inadvertently, would be every city across Southern Thedas, including Starkhaven, if Chantry dogma supported by Templars will continue murder, physical and emotional, of mages. He'll have additional dialogue depending on whether you're a mage Hawke, or if Bethany died/is in Circle.

In Romance, Sebastian will lower his bow immediately as Hawke steps between. You'll have to mess up really badly in dialogue for him to storm out.

[kirkwallguy]

whyyyy did Marcus tell Mary to suck it up and go through the wedding apologies i do not know much about their backstories (or how they’re connected 😭) but it seems very compelling!! do u have any references for the both of them tyyy

uhh mostly because he's sick in the head?

okay, real answer is because it's the path of least resistance for both of them. marcus doesn't want to get super involved in her personal drama because he dislikes her and disagrees with her politics. he's also very aware of the fact that he needs to protect his apostate family (anders, bethany and warden amell. potentially a baby mage but i'm not completely sold on that) and doesn't want to cause controversy. he's also very aware of her situation and... what can she do? call the wedding off? it's the biggest event of the year. he knows it's literally beyond his control but he still wishes he could do something.

in a worse, deeper layer of himself, there's also this sick sense of... poetic justice? mary has made her bed and now she has to lie in it. she chose a divine who will actively hurt the mages, so finding out she is in fact a mage is funny. anders goes along with this despite it being upsetting because he has never had a full conversation with mary, but bethany really disagrees because she had ties to mary's mage sister in the kirkwall circle. matilda amell doesn't care because she's busy hooking up with bianca (another plotline.)

[dragonsasastronauts]

Bioware was so real for this

[thedragonagelesbian]

btw neve talking about how much she loves minrathous and feeling like it stabs her in the back made me & cyrus want to cry.........

[vaguely-concerned]

just going about my day idly contemplating how some of the ways hawke can interact with a romanced anders are not at all unlike how they interact with leandra (and a bit of carver too, especially with a purple hawke), and then thought about my hawke in the timeline where he romances anders and was hit straight in the face with 'was he ever actually in love, or was he just desperately trying to renegotiate with his mother's ghost in any way he could' and now i need to lie down. this is the power of dragon age 2

[potatoesandsunshine]

'did leliana know about the background sebhawke marriage—' obviously. obviously. she didn't tell anyone because she thought it was very sad funny and that's all she has to say about it

[stop-breaking-my-heart-dragonage]

Okay I thought I was done but apparently I'm not. I need to talk more about this banter you can get during the Legacy DLC between Aveline and Warden Carver because it makes me want to scream.

Aveline: I'm glad you found a place with the Wardens. Carver: Well, it's not the city guard, but it'll do. Aveline: Carver... it wasn't the place for you. Carver: No, it's all right. It is. It cost a lot, but I get it. I really was a bit of a tit those days, wasn't I? Aveline: Well...

In my last post, I talked about how Aveline had no place telling the guard to refuse Carver's application, regardless of if he was "right" for the job or not. But I believe he would've made a great guard, and getting that job not only would've provided for him and his family during a desperate time, but would've prevented him from either fate of becoming a warden or a templar. He was unfairly robbed of a chance to prove himself because Aveline believed he wasn't right for the guard.

This is one of the banters I brought up but didn't go too in depth about. At this point, it's been between 3-6 years since Act 1, depending on if you decided to do Legacy in Act 2 or Act 3, and every line here is important.

Carver's response to Aveline saying she's glad he "found a place" with the wardens is so telling. Not being accepted by the guard is still on his mind after all this time. He wouldn't bring it up if it didn't still bother him, and implies that he still would've preferred the guard over the wardens.

Which... yeah. Listen, I'm a dedicated "Carver joins the Grey Warden" player. I don't like leaving him behind to become a templar, and I certainly don't like him dying. For me, the Grey Wardens are the best outcome he has. It’s where he seems the happiest and finds the most fulfilment, and it fits well with how I play my Hawke. But it obviously has some tragic issues.

Like the fact that becoming a Grey Warden only delayed his inevitable death within the Deep Roads. Eventually his Calling will come, and Carver will go back down there and fight until the darkspawn eventually kill him. I'm sure that's not traumatic to think about given he was a soldier at Ostagar and then watched Bethany die at the hands of an ogre. Oh, and there's the whole nightmares and voices thing.

Carver didn't choose this life for himself. It was either this or death, but a "what if?" still lingers in his mind about the city guard.

Something Aveline ruined for him.

And continues to ruin.

Aveline: Carver... it wasn't the place for you.

You hear that? In the distance? That's me screaming.

I must reiterate; what makes Aveline believe it's her place to tell Carver whether or not the city guard was right for him? Why did she think she should get a say in whether or not the guard takes him? What's made it HER call?

And still, after all this time has passed, she believes it wasn't right for him and she's unwilling to consider otherwise. Maker forbid she do some reflection and question if she was in the right for interfering at all, too!

Carver is standing right there before her, proving everything she said about him wrong, and she just doubles down. There's no reason to say this to him unless she's trying to remind him of his place; he's a Grey Warden, and she's Guard-Captain of Kirkwall's city guard. But c'mon, Aveline, he's hardly a threat to your precious guard anymore given the whole dedication to killing darkspawn thing he has now.

Maybe if you paid more attention to the threats within your guard, Kirkwall would be a safer place with less murder going around? Just saying!

But isn't that how it's always been? Aveline putting him in his place, making sure Carver remembers she's always outranked him?

Carver: Did you approve my application? Aveline: I can't make you a guard, Carver. Carver: We were both soldiers. Why won't they take me? Aveline: I was an officer. And I follow orders. Carver: [laughs] No you don't. Aveline: I also think of others before myself. You seem tired of that, and that's dangerous. Carver: Just when it's not my choice. You told them not to take me, didn't you? Aveline: Yes.

That he should remember who he's talking to?

Carver: I'm surprised you still travel with us, Aveline. Aveline: Carver, don't. Carver: You're ever so busy with the guardsmen. It must be a burden to slum with the refugees. Aveline: It's oddly comforting that you insult me like I'm family. Carver: That wasn't... no, I didn't mean that. Aveline: I know. But you should be glad that's how I took it.

That she's in charge?

Aveline: Your form's sloppy, Carver. Stiffen up or the darkspawn will take your blade. Carver: Right. I'll keep that in mind. Aveline: And you're angry, why? Carver: You didn't fare any better than I did the last time we faced darkspawn. Aveline: If they take your blade, people die. That's not happening again. Stiffen up. Carver: Yes ma'am.

Oh, and she used to spy on him [and Hawke].

Aveline: I don't like some of the people you've been associating with, Carver. Carver: Talk to my brother/sister. He/She's the one in charge. Aveline:  Maybe, but I know you get around. This city's full of people who are dead set on ending badly. I don't want to see you end up the same way. Carver: Would asking you to stop spying on me help in the least? Aveline: No.

That's their banter.

But sure, she's glad he found a place in the wardens. I don't think she's being ingenuine when she says that, but I think it's a little more complicated than a mere "congrats on doing well, I knew you could do it."

But Carver's response? Oh Maker's ass. It actually hurts me.

Carver: No, it's all right. It is. It cost a lot, but I get it. I really was a bit of a tit those days, wasn't I? Aveline: Well...

I... what can I even say?

He accepts it, but you can tell it hurts to do so. It DID cost a lot. More than Aveline will ever understand. And it doesn't matter now! He can't become a guard now anyway, so what would be the point in him disagreeing with her? Carver acts as the bigger person here because he does get it, even if Aveline doesn't.

But it's that last part... that last damn part... Don't be alarmed, that screaming you hear is still me.

Here's the deal; Carver acknowledges that he could be an ass back in Act 1. Hell, he acknowledges it IN Act 1. For example, when you talk to him after finding your grandfather's will, he's an ass to you about Bethany no matter what you say.

But y'know what? You can be the biggest piece of shit to him and have Hawke literally call him a "lazy brat with a chip on his shoulder," and Carver will still be the one to be apologetic for what he said and attempt to explain his feelings.

"Brother/Sister... I feel... I don't know. It's like Mother taking things out on us. She was just scared. I don't have a place in the life she's trying to bring back…"

Carver can be an ass, but he's aware of that and actively tries to change his behavior. If you bring him and Fenris with you on the Mark of the Assassin DLC, there's a moment where Carver says, "You still don't like me? I've tried to change." And if you bring Varric, he once again acknowledges that he used to be an ass.

BUT... that being said. If you don't remember, "I really was a bit of a tit those days, wasn't I?" is referencing back to this conversation in the barracks of Act 1:

Hawke: This must be a very different pace from serving King Cailan. Aveline: It's just one more change, though. The real end for me was Ostagar. What about you Carver? You were there. Do you feel something similar? Carver: No. Aveline: All right, then. Bit of a tit, your brother.

Now, I've already expressed my beef with Aveline over insulting Carver in the middle of the barracks just because he doesn't agree with her view point on Ostagar... but consider the fact that Carver says nothing. He just lets her insult him without a complaint! Carver Hawke, who tends to complain! And he says nothing!

Not only that, but he actually internalized that insult enough that years later he's able to repeat it back to Aveline word for word, and all she has to say is, "Well..."

This isn't the same thing as him reflecting on his past behavior and acknowledging his flaws. This is Carver accepting a snide jab Aveline made that hurt him because apparently he was wrong for not wanting to discuss any trauma Ostagar left him with as openly as she does.

Oh, and don't forget that any other companion you brought along dogpiles on, too!

Carver: No, it's all right. It is. It cost a lot, but I get it. I really was a bit of a tit those days, wasn't I? Aveline: Well... Varric: No shit. Fenris: Insufferable. Isabela: Legendary. Anders: Maker, yes. Sebastian: I've heard as much. [If Hawke has a humorous/charming personality] Hawke: Spoiled, annoying, thick-headed, brattish little nitwit of a... oh, have we stopped?

Y'all ever wonder why he's so on edge or hostile with the other companions?

Also, I have to point out that Merrill is the only companion who doesn't say anything in agreement if she's there. In fact, across all their banter, Merrill's never been rude or insulting toward him. All she does is ask him if he's talking dirty to her and compliments him on what a great sworder he is. It's pretty obvious why Carver develops a crush on her, c'mon.

But to wrap this up-

This banter strikes a nerve due to how telling it is about both characters involved.

Carver has grown and done what he can to improve himself, but there's regret that lingers, a longing for a better life he could've had if given a chance. Maybe he would've failed, maybe he would've succeeded. But there's nothing he can do now, so he looks forward, just as he's always wanted to do. He's a damn good Grey Warden who wants to do right.

Aveline remains stagnant. She hasn't changed, nor has she improved, and maybe she would if she could figure out how to dislodge her head from her own ass. She still believes she was in the right to tell the guard not to accept Carver's application despite knowing the Hawke's were desperate and that Fereldan refugees couldn't find work. She knew Carver's a skilled soldier who fought at Ostagar just as she did. The guard wasn't the place for him so she's in the right to deny him any chance. Aveline knows best.

And y'know what, I think all I have left to say is...

Fine, Aveline. You're right. It wasn't the place for him.

Carver was too good for your city guard.

[danielnelsen]

well i guess i can play bg3 now, assuming it finishes downloading sometime in the next 2 months