#so. macden/queer dennis canon was a hopeful thought but not an expectation

[whim-prone-pirate]

THIS IS WHAT IM SAYING !!! the finales for 11, 12, 13, and 15 were breathtaking. this was not.

mac wrestled with god and faith itself to come to terms with a feeling he'd been pushing down for decades. he sends out desperate cries for help to god over and over, and he never gets any answers.

the gang learns that dennis has what is essentially another gang and he leaves them (it's later revealed that each member of the gang thought they had a bigger part in his goodbye than they did, it affected them mentally no matter how hard they deny it).

mac, even after all the self actualization and learning he's had to do to stop hating himself, still can't be comfortable in who he is because of a man who never loved him and never will love him; he practiced a performance for months to show this man who he is, to help him learn to love his son, and he couldn't make it halfway through—but frank did. frank is who matters.

charlie's two wants in life are the love of the waitress and the love of his dad. he thinks he has that, and it falls apart spectacularly—nevertheless, he carries out the dying wish of his father: to be honored the way the kelly men always have been. charlie tries and tries and he drags that fucking body bag up a mountain in ireland, through heat and rain, losing his friends along the way, but he has to realize that this man in the body bag wasn't there for the little boy he made. charlie now knows his dad, and he might be worse off.

and then there's dennis takes a mental health day. bad. bad bad bad bad. cute for a midseason break-the-formula thing, like making dennis reynolds a murderer or being frank, probably like a 7.9 to 8.2 out of 10 on imdb, but a finale ?? especially with this history ??? we KNOW they can do grand emotional 22 minute sitcom episodes so why did they stop? especially when mac finds his pride got CRAZY press?? there was opportunity and they did not use it when they could have done something monumental.

sidebar, sunny has a history of hit or miss formula breaking. charlie work is the top episode of the entire show. being frank was so-so. i do think that dtamhd was OKAY. but by virtue of it being a finale, the fact that the plot was just okay and it being entirely unrelated to any previous episode tanks it's value. it doesn't mean anything to us because it should have been more.

I think why I’m mad is I just really hope they don’t consider this their Dennis episode like MFHP was considered Macs and the Gang carried a body up a mountain was Charlie’s like I think that’s why I hated this one so much because this was not a dennis catharsis moment and we better actually get one I’m on my hands and knees I’m BEGGING

This is just like… Reddit dennis this isn’t big feelings dennis give me big feelings breakdown dennis

[theongreyjoy]

The MacDennis Paradox: reconciling canon with Sunny’s most blunt romance.

As a longtime MacDennis enjoyer, watching the fandom evolve over the years has been an interesting journey. Simultaneously, I started watching the show before Mac came out as gay. My previous essays and thoughts on their romance was colored by interviews, subtext, etc of the earlier seasons. 

The fandom today seems to be in an eternal struggle with the canon of the show. Will Mac and Dennis ever get together? Does it matter? What are the implications? I am hoping to discuss those questions- particularly as it pertains to Dennis’s character. I will attempt to use primary sources when possible. 

Is Dennis Bi and is he attracted to Mac?

I find it interesting that not only is this a question, but how often it is debated in Sunny circles. Dennis is bi, both confirmed by actions on the show, and Glenn Howerton several times. 

1x1 Dennis gets drunk and has a threesome with men. (a huge caveat here being he was blackout drunk, but I wanted to note it particularly because the character having sex with women while under the influence is not uncommon either)

The extended scene of Mac and Dennis break up has Dennis staring longingly at Mac and expressing his affection for his beautiful lips

7x11 Dennis expresses interest in seeing dick.

8x7 Dennis is interested in the caddy as Brian LeFevre

Glenn says Dennis is Bisexual.

Conan interview transcript with Charlie Day/Glenn Howeton (my apologies, I have a transcript for this but I no longer have a source link) : Conan: It seems like all of your character might be gay Charlie: Everyone is a little gay.……..Conan: What we’re talking about is a spectrum of sexuality. Charlie: It’s true. Conan:You’re not gay or “not gay”, there’s a spectrum Glenn: There’s a spectrum. We’ve been over this. We’ve been over this before. We’ve talked about it.

Mac and Dennis Break up commentary where Charlie and Rob agree that Dennis and Mac are attracted to each other. 

Then of course, you have the infamous cast and official network social media. Most specifically, that one Insta story where Rob directly compares his canon lesbian romance in Mythic Quest with Mac/Dennis. This is tin hatty, but it falls in line with cast and crew expression.

Okay, so we have established that Dennis is queer, and on some level, he is in love with Mac, so what gives?

 It’s often joked that the Succession fandom isn’t made up of the people the showrunners expected (particularly young gay shippers). The same is true with Sunny. It is relevant that the Shipping side of sunny is very small, and also surprisingly quiet compared to say- Marvel or CW fandoms. I would imagine that we are on RCG’s radar as a blip. If you compare notes that popular MacDen posts get with say...the amount of people on the /r/IASIP reddit page, it’s important to remember that shippers are a minority- and romance has never been an aspect of Sunny. 

In terms of WILL MacDennis be canon in a traditional sense, I would almost lean “no” simply because of how divorced the show is from romance narrative. It has used Charlie/Dee and Mac/Dennis to lampoon different tropes in sitcom romance, but it’s never taken either of these seriously. Its goal is to always cynically criticize shipping narratives. BUT WAIT, THERES MORE. 

How MacDennis serves (and doesn’t serve) in the canon narrative.

This is probably opinion based, but I do think Mac/Dennis is already canon to the extent that canon is allowed. Mac and Dennis have chosen to live with each other for over 20 years, forgoing long term relationships AND other friendships. It is to the point where in a DVD extra, Dennis is helping Mac Find a date and proclaims that he will be in every aspect of Mac’s relationship, INCLUDING sexually. 

So we do have canon establishment here that the two of them have made a conscious effort to remain life partners at the expense of any possible genuine relationships they could have with another person. This severe codependency even presents itself when Dennis starts to shrivel away from Mac’s more aggressive advances in later seasons. 

It is worth noting this extremely frustrating gap (while I DEEPLY HATE IT) is in character for Dennis. Dennis’s relationship with romance and sex is power based (more on this later) and Mac bluntly expressing his deep affection for him does put him in a weaker position more consciously. Dennis has always been the more needy of the two. He IS weaker, more sensitive, and occasionally needs mac to nurture him. Mac may be able to survive out in the world without Dennis, but it’s hard to say Dennis could do the same. That said, Dennis likes the illusion of being dominant in their relationship. 

 It is not surprising that Mac taking on an aggressive and outward display of aggressive affection while also demanding his approval (something that typically was done by Dennis to Mac) would disturb and put him off. 

Dennis, Romance, Sex, and Power

So, this is a huge part of the puzzle if we are talking about how Dennis loves. I am inclined to believe that Dennis is aromantic- on top of being a full blown traumatized narcissist. I don’t think these two are necessarily related, but they all intermingle with the dangers of a canon MacDennis in a traditional sense. 

Dennis does not see sex and romance as good things. He sees them as a way to abuse people. Dennis is HIGHLY abusive with anything involving traditional affection, and that creeps into his relationship with Mac to some extent (constantly manipulating him into kisses and blowing him off). But he’s never gone all the way with it, which is interesting because he isn’t shy doing it with oher people. 

Sunny again, is a stupid comedy, and analyzing it is dumb, but if we are looking at a canon interpretation of Dennis strictly with the footage we have, a few things are evident. 

Dennis will only use sex and romance to horrifically abuse people, and once he is done with them, he discards them. See: the Dennis System. His whole endgame revolves around the dehumanization and discarding of romantic partners.

Dennis toys with Mac, but he refuses to see his typical pattern with sex and romance through with him. 

Dennis is still deeply codependent on Mac and genuinely loves him. He continues to stay with him and remain his domestic partner.

Dennis seems to be aware on a conscious level that taking any additional steps with Mac would be disastrous. I think that is HIGHLY out of character to expect Dennis to be able to change his deeply flawed and twisted relationship with sex/romance. I can’t see a situation where Dennis is able to get together with Mac even as a joke and have it not completely destroy both of them, because that’s just not who Dennis is. 

Dennis is withholding his own D.E.N.N.I.S system on Mac to continue to keep him in a safe and comfortable loop where he can love him to the extent that he is able to safely and keep him. 

What is a Canon MacDennis?

As I said before, MacDennis is already canon. In my opinion, both characters have chosen each other and continue to choose each other above all else. While the shipper in me desperately wants my kiss/sex, I also recognize that characters are likely not to be completely changed for the sake of a ship that is mostly used to lampoon romance tropes on a show not about romance. 

MOST IMPORTANTLY, I think that this is a really interesting example of a “queerplatonic” romance that goes beyond a queerbait. We know these characters are queer already. We also know theres romantic interest expressed. In this case, it truly is a matter of it intersecting awkwardly with who these characters are at their core. 

That said, MacDennis in its canon form is very beautiful. Neither character will chose another romantic interest over each other. They are already together. Mac has spent several seasons exploring his sexuality and continues to come back to the person he truly loves. Dennis is Dennis- a broken disaster baby, and has long settled into the life he chose with Mac-with every LTR attempted resulting in an inevitable abusive destruction of that person. Mac is the only person Dennis does not want to truly destroy. 

[emberphantom]

(Contd 3) Other than the RR of it all, do you have any worries with them taking on a Mac's bf plot? There's so many fan theories that I worry it might feel too predictable or like bad fanfic, but I also worry more abt them trying to subvert expectations incorrectly (trusting rcg pls not to break their characters, i know they're proud of that aspect of their writing). Also it would really be a story about Dennis and I'm scared they'll use it to deny Dennis' queerness. Thoughts? sry fr long asks!

I have SO many worries about them doing a Mac's BF plot. Not bc I don't have faith they can write a good queer storyline -- MQ is a good example of Rob and Charlie executing that well -- but bc I feel like they're not gonna give us anything.

Like okay we ALL know the ideal Mac BF storyline is: Mac gets a new BF and is very much like fully into him. So much in fact that it takes away from his codependency of Dennis. He stops hanging around the bar as much, stops participating in schemes. The Gang is happy for him but Dennis is FUMING. Like he is absolutely Jealous but also so deep in denial. That's like the BASELINE right there. Like it makes sense for the characters. Idk where else they could go but I'm sure they're gonna find it and THAT makes me worried.

Maybe it's my brainrot, but I fr cannot see a world where a Mac's BF storyline doesn't involve Dennis as the b-plot in some way. But you're right, then they'd have to acknowledge Dennis not being completely straight and I...I really don't know if they're going to take that step and that's where I'm worried. Bc if they don't do it then...then bro I feel like that ship has sailed. There's not gonna BE a better opportunity for Dennis Realizing Things.

I definitely DON'T want it to come off like fanfic either...even though to this day MacDennis fics are some of my absolute fave I've ever read. But I also am on twitter and I know what people be saying and how they talk about MacDen (and other ships for other things) and yeah sometimes it's clear people are just riffing and don't necessarily want something to happen that way in canon. But it's also hard to make that distinction sometimes so I hope there's nothing that RCG takes to heart as like fuck we need to do this or we need to avoid this bc this is going TOO much in a fan-servicey direction.

Idk how much they read shit online but I do know at least the reddit bros seem to be in the jealous Dennis camp so if Rob wants to pander to them, we win actually.