#so when regina destroyed the curse in s3

[ouatsnark]

Sorry for blowing up your inbox but I like your blog and hearing other opinions so...

I've seen multiple people claim that Snowing and Captain Swan are selfish.

For being happy that Killian was alive when Robin was dead, for their parenting, etc.

I've even seen them claim Emma doesn't care about anyone but herself and claim that she doesn't care about Henry.

People always go on about how she 'abandoned' Henry and that Neal, Gold, and Regina care so much more about him.

(even though I've seen some sf and sq edits where Henry is treated terribly by the same people and Gold literally would have murdered Henry if he hadnt found out NEAL WAS DEAD).

People also claim Snowing abandoned Emma and that it was their fault Emma was orphaned and not Regina's.

(Even though let's be real. If they didn't put her through that wardrobe Regina would have absolutely murdered baby Emma or Emma wouldn't have grown up at all).

I'm just frustrated so this probably doesn't make sense. Sorry.

Why thank you! And as you know, I am more than happy to blast my opinions out here!

A few things that completely destroys their talking points:

Snowing gave up a future with Emma so that everyone would be free

Emma gave up her future when she sacrificed herself to the darkness for the sake of the town

Emma gave up her future when she sacrificed for Gideon.

Emma gave up the chance to be with her parents and Killian to take Henry to NY in S3

Killian gave up his life to stop the darkness

Killian let himself be tortured to protect them all

Killian risked his life for Henry in s6

Killian risked his life for everyone in S3

Snow let herself fall into a curse so Emma could save her true love

Emma killed Cruella to protect Henry

I’m sure I missed some but these focus on Emma's love for Henry, Snowing's sacrifices for Emma and Emma and Killian's sacrifices for Henry and the greater good. Side note: Yes, I think the show misused Snow's relationship with Emma in favor of her ridiculous and unbelievable relationship with Regina but I still see Snow as a mother who would do anything for her daughter.

That being said let’s dive into the claims!

Claim 1: being happy that Killian was alive when Robin was dead

My counter question to the Regina Apologists is this: so what would you have had them do? Literally? It’s not like they threw a party. What should Emma have done? Tell Killian he needs to go back to the Underworld because Robin is dead and if Regina isn’t happy, well, Emma can’t be happy either and Killian doesn’t deserve to live? Their answer to that is “yes” by the way which I then point out how incredibly stupid that is and biased. Regina deserves squat and while Robin didn’t deserve to die that has NOTHING to do with Emma and Killian.

Killian was also dead and they presumed they would never see him again. Life is a roller coaster and people experience many emotions in one given day. Just because something good happens in the aftermath of a tragedy doesn’t mean you do not feel happiness over that good thing while your heart is also breaking.

This look here is a prime example.

Emma is overjoyed she has her pirate back. But once she’s welcomed him back, she looks over at Robin’s coffin and THEY have a moment of silence and sadness. In fact, it takes them a while to make it back to Granny's out of respect!

Parenting? I’m not sure what the “parenting” refers to under there. Happy parenting vs what exactly? The only possible thing I can think of is Snowing having another baby which isn’t selfish at all. They were robbed the first time and does this mean that having a second child is always selfish? I don't know people are weird when they reach for things to hate on.

Claim 2: Emma doesn’t care about Henry & she abandoned him

Henry has been living with Emma since S2. Under her care, his life flourished in S3 where he had friends and their bond only grew whereas he was never this close to Regina. I mean it was Emma that knew something was different with him when Pan switched bodies with him. It was Emma, not Regina or Gold, that knew how serious things were getting with Violet. It was Regina that kicked him out when she had a broken heart but when Emma lost Killian she never kicked Henry out.

Killian also was very close to Henry as well because it was Killian that finished teaching him how to sword fight, navigate and captain a boat. Killian also asked Henry to be his best man.

In fairness, Neal didn’t get a chance to be a father but then knowing Neal as soon as things got too tough he’d be gone. And Gold cared about Henry when it was convenient for him because as you point out he nearly killed Henry on a few occasions. Don’t forget about S5 and S7.

And Emma never abandoned Henry. To say that she did infers that she left him somewhere and walked away for selfish reasons and belittles the sacrifice birth parents sometimes have to make for the sake of their child. Giving a child up for adoption to ensure that child has a better life than you can provide them is not abandonment. Emma saw to it that his needs would be met when she surrendered her rights to Henry. It was an act of love and a chance at a better life since she couldn’t provide for him. Those who say this refuse to look at the facts: she was a teenager in jail without family support, income or a place to live. He’d have been bounced around from one place to another while she sat in jail then waited for the courts to decide she was a fit mother (which could’ve been years considering her record and lack of job or living). Note: this is not to say adopted children don’t feel abandoned by their parents, Emma sure did, but I’m just saying the word isn’t a fair one to use in some circumstances and implies selfishness when there wasn’t any.

Now if they mean Emma abandoned adult Henry in S7 then they can kindle STFU about that too because Henry was an adult that decided to leave home. Just because Regina followed him around like a co-dependent parent following their child to college doesn’t mean Emma loves him less. Actually, it means she loves him more because she gave him room to find his own story whereas Regina attached herself to him because she needed him. Regina has always needed him. He’s never needed her.

Claim 3: Snowing abandoned Emma and it was all their fault

Yes, correct, Regina’s henchmen were sent to kill baby Emma. If baby Emma had managed to survive then she’d have been cursed as an infant and she’d never have grown up, she would not be with Snowing despite Emma's claims in S2 and they’d all still be cursed to this day. It’s shocking how many Regina Apologists do not know this.

And when you point out they immediately bring up the door in S6 to which I say “same deal”. Now, the show retconned the terms from S1 during S2 because suddenly in S2 Emma needed to be alone in order to find them and break the curse (August implies this in his convo with Neal and then Snowings convo with Gold in S6 retcon flashback). And Snowing had to make that sacrifice for the greater good. There was no other moral choice to make, as choosing themselves would be the selfish choice, and sadly Snowing and Emma paid the biggest price just so everyone could be free.

My answer to this is pretty simple. If Regina hadn’t casted the curse then Snowing would’ve raised Emma therefore it is still Regina’s fault. Snowing had no choice but to let Emma go so that she could find them and break the curse.

I actually go into that more here:

Do you know who, out of the main cast, is the most selfish character on Once Upon a Time?

Y’all know what my answer is. Actually, Rumple is probably the most selfish but Regina comes in second and I consider her to be worse since the show promotes her as a redeemed villain now hero.

[intothewickedwood]

Once Upon A Time Rewatch: 6x18 Where Bluebirds Fly

Whoop! Whoop! Zel Zel centric!

The yellow brick road! I wish the characters had an adventure in Oz so we’d get to explore it a bit more like we did Wonderland and Neverland.

Back off! Leave young Zel alone! Is magic not a common thing in Oz?

Aww this friendship is adorable. I kinda wish his name was Boq though to tie in with Wicked’s tin man, but they already included Boq.

It always makes me so sad seeing young Zelena. She was so sweet and her father is just the worst! She deserved so much better. She must have gotten her kindness from the little time she spent with her adoptive mothers, cause goodness knows her other three parents are evil. If she was raised by Cora to be Queen, I’m not sure she’d have had the heart to rule through fear like Cora no doubt would have wanted.

Get off baby Robin, you bitch! 

No you can’t hold her a little longer.

The Black Fairy: “I never grow tired of that new baby smell.” She is so freaking creepy.

She’s manipulating you, Zelly!

To be fair Zelena was almost that level of creepy when it came to Snowing’s baby back in s3. 

Lol. Poor Snow.

Okay. It is pretty adorable that Snow has been planning Emma’s wedding since after the first curse haha.

Help! Snow’s being super adorabubble!!

The fact that Zelena is probably Belle’s closest friend at this point lol. Poor Belle. I wish the others cared about her more but I do enjoy her dynamic with Zelena.

Zelena, don’t do it, girl!

Another entrance to the mines?

Other than Stanum (probably breifly) and briefly Glinda (the two-faced biatch) I don’t think Zelena has ever had any friends. She just had her horrible father growing up and that was it, no wonder she craved love so much. She’s always been alone and has known only hatred for something she can’t control (her magic).

Oh, so the Witch of the North is wicked too? Interesting. I wonder if she fell out with Glinda or Glinda turned on her too. I wanna know more about the Wicked Witch of the North! And heck, I wanna know what happened to the Witch of the East too!

Regina’s come to save sis!

God, these two fighting like children again lol.

Even though they’re fighting, Regina’s instinct is still to protect big sis from falling rock.

Getting married at Granny’s lol. But don’t they end up getting married on top of Granny’s or something?

David still not over Whale. Dude, you almost got Kathryn pregnant! You know what, it’s really messed up that they slept with others while cursed, even though they wouldn’t have if they weren’t under its influence. 

I think that deep down, Zelena just wanted a mother again. We still don’t know when her adoptive mother died but I think Zelena was really young. She was the only person to show her love and since Zelena going back in time may not prevent her death, she is desperate to find that love again from her other mother. She will do anything to have that again and that’s why she’s often so desperate to prove herself, she thinks power is the only way to win Cora’s affections. It’s the only thing that will make her mother, the only person she believes can love her, show her the love she so desperately craves.

It’s the king of the forest! 

Why is a Lion in a forest? Or tigers? I’m not even gonna ask.

Is Gideon more powerful than Regina? He knocked her down pretty easily. 

The Black fairy playing hide and seek with the Wicked Witch of the West.

Go Zel Zel!

This scene is so cool!

The Black Fairy can deflect magic? Weird that Blue hasn’t been shown to do that. I guess they have different power sets.

There Regina goes again. She is getting flipped around so easily today lol.

Yes! Thank you! Zelena is stronger than Regina confirmed. I was afraid they were going back on what they’d established in s3. She’s supposed to be more powerful than Cora, according to Rumple, who I think is easily more powerful than Regina. I’m gonna do a magic ranking one day. 

Magic is really affected by emotions. So because Zelena’s emotions are unstable, that makes her magic unstable? Interesting. I love it being connected to their emotions. 

What’s she using Zelena’s magic to do?

That lion is huge!

Oh, she made it into a scaredy cat. I wonder if it can talk.

Don’t say that Regina. Zelena needs you. You need each other deep down. Just wait till s7, you’ll be besties then!

Even though Regina’s hypocrisy this season gets to me a lot, I’m glad that Regina and Zelena’s sisterhood was tested and they didn’t instantly become besties. It makes their friendship all the more real and worth the ride in s7.

Snow: “And if she wanted to get married in a bathroom it would be perfect and exactly what it’s supposed to be.” Oh my God lmao! That would have been the best! 

Umm, how did the crystal summon a tornado portal?

I misremembered. I thought Stanum knew it would drain her magic but he seems like he’s telling the truth that he didn’t.

He’ll be alright. Dorothy will help him.

But what will she do with the crystals? 

Zelena: “You’re all I’ve got, Regina.”

I actually want to cry. This was so brave of Zelena. You can tell how much the idea of destroying her magic breaks her. It is a part of her. She’s had it since the day she was born. Can you imagine ripping away something that is that ingrained in who you are and have always been? It makes me so upset but it was important for her development. 

I wanna hug Zelena! 

It looks painful. I imagine it would be ripping away a part of yourself like that. 

Aww Regina is so proud of her sis and hugs her. I can’t!!

God I was so distraught when they took Zelena’s magic. You don’t understand. I think I still would be extremely distraught if she hadn’t gotten magic back in s7. The important thing was, much like Harry Potter meant to die when Voldemort struck him in the Deathly Hallows, Zelena meant for her magic to be gone forever and that is a bigger sacrifice for her than anyone will ever understand, akin to sacrificing her life. I wasn’t sure she ever would get it back but I wish Robin hadn’t given up her magic. It was very nice of her to do that for her mother, who’s magic was such an important part of her life but can you imagine mother and daughter and Alice and Robin kicking ass with their magic. In my head, Robin gets magic back a short time after the s7 finale. 

Why oh why didn’t we get more of a Black Fairy and Blue Fairy interaction in Storybrooke? At least we get some in the flashbacks next week.

She really hates her.

I can’t remember why Rumple can’t know why his mother gave him up. Guess I’ll find out soon!

This was such a great and important episode for my girl, Zelena. So proud of her. What an emotional rollercoaster! 

[gch1995]

I went on to TV Tropes, and found a list of bad writing tropes. Sadly, most of them apply to every character on OUAT.

Aesop Amnesia: The more times a character is taught a lesson without learning it, the lower the viewer's opinion of him/her and you.

(Rumple, Belle, Emma, Snow, David, Hook, and Regina from S4-S6. I don’t think anyone on this show who lasted past season three ever really learned anything new after the first two-and-a-half seasons from past experiences. They just went back-and-forth until they came back full circle to the same points they were at before in the end of the Neverland arc at the end of S6-S7. The writers could not stick to positive character development, or write realistic regressions at all. I didn’t really hate the characters for it, just the writers behind them)

Angst? What Angst?: Make your characters react realistically to setbacks or tragic events. Too little angst makes them appear callous or ditzy.

(Literally, everyone on this show. There were no realistic human reactions anymore after the first two-and-a-half seasons)

Character Derailment: Characters can grow, but don't suddenly mutate them into something else.

(Let’s see, Rumple, Belle, Emma, and Hook seemed to be the biggest sufferers of this trope on OUAT)

Character Shilling: Having characters suddenly talk up another character for no real reason doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

(A lot of the Rumbelle drama from S4-S6)

Chickification: Be careful when you decide to make an Action Girl less action-oriented; if not done properly, it will annoy your audience.

(Emma Swan after she got together with Hook)

Compressed Vice: Don't have a character develop a bad habit or flaw out of nowhere solely for the sake of setting up An Aesop (doubly so if it contradicts previous facts about the character), and especially don't show its consequences in a hamfisted, unrealistic manner.

(Rumple and Belle from S4-S6, tbh)

Conflict Ball: Don't have a character cause conflict just because the plot says so.

(S1 Regina, 3B-6A Rumple and particularly Belle, Hook, and especially Zelena)

Creator's Pet: Treating a certain character with tons of love when they really don't deserve it is never a good idea.

(Hook, Regina, and Zelena)

Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy: Making the story excessively bleak and giving absolutely no hope will only tire out the audience until they lose interest in the story.

(3B-S7 of the entire series)

Demonization: Some of your potential audience may actually see where this position is coming from, if not actually agree. You'll turn them off by your exaggerated portrayal. It also makes it seem like the position you hold isn't nearly as solid as you think, since it can only stand up to strawmen.

(Rumple from S4-S6, and not in a good way)

Designated Hero: Having your hero Kick the Dog and still expecting your audience to see them as a paragon of virtue because you say so doesn't usually work; rather, it makes your hero unlikable.

(H00k, Snowing, Emma, Belle, and even Henry at one point or another. Pretty much every once truly heroic character on this show after S3 at one point or another)

Designated Love Interest: If you say that two characters are in love, don't make them hate or be apathetic to each other, actually go out of your way to make them love each other. Otherwise, it just feels contrived

(6A Rumbelle on both sides, and Belle’s characterization after the town line scene with Rumple, but that was just OOC. 5A CS on Hook’s side, and the main reason why I hate CS so much is because Jmo and Colin have no chemistry. It was forced)

Designated Villain: Having your villain come across as harmless or even too benign and still expecting your audience to see them as a monster because you say so doesn't usually work; rather, it makes your villain petty and perhaps far too sympathetic.

(Rumplestiltskin in 5B)

Die for Our Ship: Attacking a rival of your pairing of choice doesn't necessarily make that character a bad person and makes you look petty.

(What they did to Rumple, Belle, and Rumbelle to prop up Hook/CS, and Nealfire’s death).

Distress Ball: Don't have a character get kidnapped for no good reason.

(I actually haven’t thought of too many instances in the series, but Gideon in 6B. There was no point for him to rip apart Rumple and Belle with character destroying Drama™️ in 6B, so that Gideon could be kidnapped by the Black Fairy and become the “big bad” because there were no lasting or serious consequences for it in the end, anyway. Gideon had his memories erased of his upbringing under the control of the Black Fairy for 28 years and his time as a villain by deaging him back to an infant with a blank slate mind, so what was even the point of committing all that character assassination of his parents, getting him kidnapped, and making him the big bad decoy villain of 6B? It was just for Drama™️, which is bad writing.)

Draco in Leather Pants: Have an acceptable reason for making a truly evil character suddenly be nice. "He or she is hot!" will not do.

(Hook, Regina, Zelena, and even Rumple on a few occasions.)

Dull Surprise: Have your characters emote during events that would make a real person do so.

(Belle’s complete lack of trauma after being locked up for 28 years, but there are more instances of this on this trash show, sadly.)

Failure Hero: While having the hero lose from time to time adds some realism to the hero and drama to the story, if they lose every single fight or mission, not only will it destroy any and all tension, but the reader will feel bad for relating with the hero.

(BELLE from S4-S6)

Faux Action Girl: If you say that a girl is strong, then make her strong. If said Action Girl comes off as too weak, the audience will begin to hate her.

(Sometimes Belle and Emma, I guess)

Hero Ball: Heroes are expected to make bad decisions every now and then, but when they do this against all common sense it becomes annoying.

(Emma, Snow, David, Henry, and particularly BELLE)

Idiot Ball: When the character is suddenly acting like an idiot.

(Rumple and especially Belle from S4-S7)

Informed Wrongness: If a character is actually in the wrong, prove it.

(Rumple wanting to use the shears on the Rumfetus in 6A. Still don’t understand how or why it was ever proven it would have been so awful when they would have prevented Gideon from living a fate that was far worse, and Aladdin was fine. Also, Rumple has said himself that magic couldn’t be used to make someone love you on numerous occasions, soo...But whatevs..I also don’t get how Rumple taking back the curse “ruined” Killy’s sacrifice).

Jerk Sue: Having a character be a complete Jerkass who gets away with it just because the author designates them as such and says you should support them does not make for a strong character, and is more likely going to turn out be a case of Creator's Pet, and often The Scrappy. Also, it tends to look like a half-assed effort when the author just throws in some secondary throw-away detail in an attempt to make you feel sorry for the character and expect you to not get upset when they behave like a jerk for no other reason than they feel like it at the time.

(ZELENA!)

Moral Dissonance: Don't have the hero behave contrary to their usual morality and be completely oblivious to it.

(BELLE, EMMA, SNOWING, EVERY “HERO” ON THIS SHOW after 3A!)

Most Writers Are Male: Don't write women from ignorance, stereotypes, and/or in unsympathetic ways (either in the form of misogyny or over-sexualization).

(The writing for Emma and Belle in seasons post s3 ish in their relationships with Rumple and Belle, but for different reasons. Belle got dumbed down and turned into a harpy and a hypocrite with Rumple to vilify him, while getting declared “strong��� for emotionally abusing him, leading him on, or doing shit like banishing him with nothing. Meanwhile, Emma turned into a codependent and violent stepford wife with no personal values, or life outside of Hook.

Also, the whole “evil is sexy” trope in female villains was offensive).

Out of Character: Moments when the character does something that he wouldn't normally do without any justification.

(Every character on this show at one point or another 98% of the time post season three ish. Yeah, the sad thing was that it wasn’t just moments of OOC ness, but overall characterizations in general)

Protagonist-Centered Morality: A character's moral standing should be based on their actions as a whole, not solely on their actions toward the main character. A sure sign of a Mary Sue or a Designated Hero.

(Hook, Emma, Belle, Snow, Henry, Regina, )

Race Tropes: Tread carefully with these. Having a minority character act like a walking stereotype screams lazy writing and will upset people

(OUAT did this a lot)

Real Women Don't Wear Dresses: Bashing a female character for liking/doing traditionally-feminine things is another form of misogyny, and can piss off the audience.

(I think they’ve done this sometimes)

Romanticized Abuse: Make sure that your romance is actually a reasonably healthy relationship. If abuse, either physical or emotional, is presented as sexy or sweet, the characters could become Unintentionally Unsympathetic, and viewers may get the wrong idea of what an acceptable real-life relationship requires

(Captain Swan, Rumbelle at times, and even Snowing at times)

Ron the Death Eater: Have an acceptable reason for making a truly good character suddenly be mean. "I hate him or her!" will not do.

(BELLE at the beginning of S6 with Rumple before he started screwing up, and in 5x18 in the UW with him)

Satellite Love Interest: Define your characters by something other than being the lover or crush for The Protagonist, or the archetypal "perfect" boyfriend/girlfriend.

(Belle for Rumple, but they didn’t always portray her as the archetypal perfect love interest for him either)

Strangled by the Red String: People going directly from being strangers to being genuinely in love is not very realistic or satisfying to watch. If you're going to make two characters fall in love with each other, try to take it slow.

(Emma and Hook)

Strong as They Need to Be: Don't have characters suddenly gain or lose power without any explanation.

(The whole loss of Rumple’s seer ability after he was resurrected. Was it ever explained? The only thing I can think of is that he wouldn’t have done a lot of the OOC stupid shit that he did if he could have seen the future)

Stupid Sacrifice: Characters shouldn't give up their lives for nothing (if the character is not a Martyr Without a Cause).

(Rumple and Belle in S7)

Villain Ball: See Hero Ball, only swap "heroes" and "villains".

(Rumple on-and-off-again from S4-S6)

Villain Decay: Don't have your antagonist lose their power and competence without a good reason

(RUMPLE from S4-S6. Seriously, he was honestly the worst possible main antagonist they could have chosen, and the least competent! )

Wangst: Make your characters react realistically to setbacks or tragic events. Too much angst makes them unrealistic and annoying.

(Every main character on the show, tbh, but especially Belle )

What an Idiot!: Characters should not make unrealistically bad decisions to drive the plot.

(Every main character on the show at one point or another from S4-S7)

Wimpification: Stripping the action, common sense, and strength from characters to add Wangst is a good way to piss off the audience.

(Rumple, EQ, Belle, Emma, Snowing, Hook, and every main character on this show)

@0ceanofdarkness

@ishtarelisheba

@done-with-ouat

@jxhniarty

@rufeepeach

@rumplestiltskin

@toewsgirl42

@forzaouat

@foreveradearie

[themattress]

OUAT Season 5 - How It Should Have Gone

OUAT should have been a 5-season show (most serialized shows should only aim for 5 seasons, IMO).  As it stands, with three overall strong seasons in S1, S2, and S3, and three overall weak seasons in S4, S6 and S7, S5 stood firmly in the middle - a lot of brilliant stuff in it made it a solid season, but a lot of awful stuff in it dragged it down from its full potential.  Still, the season’s second half, 5B, was the strongest the show had been since the S3 finale, the best it was going to get past 4x11, and thus would’ve been the highest note to go out on if only they had made 5x22 and 5x23 a series finale rather than a mediocre Season 6 lead-in.  

But in this post, I’m gonna go even further and radically change much of the season to make it what I feel would have been an ideal final season for OUAT. In order to start that, the ending to the S4 finale would have to be changed: it would cut off at 1:27 here - the final shot of the season would be the heroes standing in the street, with Emma saying that the Darkness has surrounded Storybrooke. This means no bullshit sacrifice for Regina because “she’s worked too hard for her happy ending” turning Emma into the new Dark One. Dark Swan was a horrible idea for S5, a prospective Camelot arc was more than enough.

5x01 - No stupid opening with young Emma and Merlin, the first scene instead is the one with Arthur, Lancelot and Percival finding Excalibur, which transitions into a shot of the Dark One dagger, which is still being held by Emma and has no name on it. The heroes return to the Apprentice, who says that the Darkness cannot do much on its own right now, but that it will gain power as it spreads through more realms and absorbs their light, and that the only way to destroy it is by reuniting the dagger with the rest of Excalibur. He then gives them Merlin’s wand, which can be used to slow the Darkness’ progress if wielded by light and darkness of equal shares. This naturally means that it will be wielded by Emma and Lily. Yeah, Lily has a major role in this final season, and why shouldn’t she? She’s Emma’s dark counterpart, and the fact that she carries Emma’s original darkness which binds her and Emma’s fates together forever was commented on by Merlin himself in 4x19. Forget the mystery of her father - dropping Lily herself from the story altogether after all that set-up was terrible writing.

Anyway, Lily is conflicted about accepting this role because she thinks she’ll screw it up just like she has everything in her life. When she refuses to go along with it, the heroes turn to Zelena instead. Zelena pulls a fast one and makes an attempt to summon a twister back to Oz, but Lily steps in and defeats her, having decided to join in after all because it might be the best chance she has of ever finding her father. The heroes go into Granny’s and are transported to Camelot. When they arrive, they are confronted by none other than Rumpelstiltskin, who is an avatar of the Darkness who confirms the death of Mr. Gold, much to Belle’s grief. Emma and Lily use the wand to make Rumple disappear, but not before he promises that they can’t ever shake him off for too long and that he will return.  The episode ends with the heroes meeting King Arthur and being taken to the actual kingdom of Camelot.

5x02 - This episode would be all about the heroes adjusting to life in Camelot. They are shown Merlin’s tree and are told that there is no known way to free him, and that is what they will have to search for. There is a scene of Snow and Charming preparing Emma for the ball and teaching her how to formally dance (because really, why the fuck would it be Regina?) The ballroom dance, Henry and Violet’s first meeting, and the playing of Only You, basically the S5 theme song, is the same. Percival confronts Regina over the destruction of his village, with the backstory behind that event being this episode’s flashback. Percival is restrained rather than killed, Robin isn’t stabbed, and Regina has to confess to being the Evil Queen. She accepts being locked in the castle dungeon as punishment, but there is a scene toward the end of the episode indicating that Arthur isn’t such a pure ruler himself, and that he has his own plans. The episode ends with Rumple standing besides a moonlit lake, with a fog rolling in and Charon appearing on a boat. Rumple tells Charon that he’s going to need help, and asks him to relay that request to his boss, setting up the Big Bad of the season: Hades.

5x03 - The present-day plot is mostly the same as the flashback in the actual 5x03, but with the scene between Regina and Zelena gone and some new character-building scenes added in. The flashback is a full one of Arthur’s childhood, how he met Guinevere, how he first made contact with Merlin and learned of his destiny, and how he became a hero and a king who formed the Round Table. The phantom knights Arthur and Charming encounter on their quest are now the help that Rumple received from the Underworld, with Rumple himself being there and declaring that the Darkness gains strength through snuffing out the light, which is why all defenders and carriers of the light must die. The episode ends with Charming receiving the Siege Perilous just as Snow encounters Lancelot, who reveals that Arthur is really a villain.

5x04 - This episode is mostly unchanged, with the exception of the framing device with Dark Emma, the motive of helping save Emma, and Merida’s appearance, all of which are gone. Instead, the motive is still finding a way to free Merlin so that he can restore Excalibur and help them destroy the Darkness. Emma is still being haunted by Rumple, but because she is a beacon of light that he wishes to psychologically destroy, not because she is the Dark One. Lily has left to go searching for her father, so it’s up to Hook to help drive Rumple away from Emma. The flashback is the same. Arthur learns that the heroes have been holding the other half of Exaclibur (the Dark One dagger) all along and tries to claim it. Snow, Charming and Lancelot trap him, but Guinevere uses mind-control sand on Snow and Charming and has Lancelot arrested, the episode ending with him being put in a cell opposite to Regina’s. 

5x05 - Snow and Charming successfully take the dagger and give it to Arthur, who now holds both halves of Exaclibur. He now only needs to find the way to free Merlin and learn from him how to combine them, after which he plans on slaying Merlin as well as the Darkness and becoming king over all realms, the greatest king there ever was, delusionally convinced that his goal is a righteous one. The rest of the episode focuses on Lily as she searches for her father, with the flashback being a twist on the tale of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight - when Sir Gawain fails the Green Knight’s test, he is cursed into basically becoming a were-dragon, which leads to him exiling himself from Camelot for everyone’s own safety. Lily finds Sir Gawain, who is of course her father, and battles him in dragon form until she is able to get through to him and allow him to keep his mind and control even in that form. He promises to continue learning to control his dragon transformation and will return and help Maleficent teach Lily to do the same once he has mastered it. The episode ends with Lily returning to Camelot, only to overhear Arthur discussing his true goal, with her running to tell Emma. 

5x06 - This episode focuses on the other heroes working together to bring Snow and Charming back to their senses and steal the Dark One dagger back from Arthur, as Emma has used a magic dreamcatcher to see how Merlin was trapped in the tree to begin with and now knows that reversing it will require the dagger. Things are complicated by Rumple appearing to Arthur and alerting him to what the heroes are doing. Henry and Violet’s subplot is the same, except that Violet truly does romantically reject Henry and he just has to learn how to accept that. Merlin is freed from the tree by Emma, which forces Arthur and his men to retreat. There is no flashback in this episode save for the opening one with Merlin and the first Dark One. The episode ends with the heroes relocating to Granny’s, which has now been transformed into a medieval biergarten, and planning to break Regina and Lancelot out of prison, while Rumple reports to Charon that Merlin is free and that they need to get serious.

5x07 - The episode opens with Regina and Lancelot being sprung from prison by the heroes, largely thanks to Merlin, and joining them at Granny’s, which was the opening scene of the actual 5x06. The rest of the episode follows the actual 5x07 exactly, with the exception of anything involving Emma being the Dark One, of course. The flashback is of Merlin and Nimue’s story. Emma, alongside Merlin and Lily, go to get the Promethean Flame which can unite both halves of Excalibur, ending up facing the Darkness in its original persona, Nimue. Snow, Charming, Hook and Robin attempt to steal Exaclibur from Arthur’s castle, but Zelena sells them out. Arthur tethers Merlin to the hilt of Excalibur, which forces the sorcerer to appear before him and be his servant. The episode ends with Arthur coming for the Flame. 

5x08 - This episode mostly goes the same way the actual 5x08 did in its flashback, with the big change coming at the end. Emma unites the dagger and Excalibur’s hilt together, completing the sword that can destroy the Darkness. Only then does Hook start dying. Emma transports him to the flower field and, rather than force the Darkness on him, Emma uses Exaclibur to channel the Darkness and become the Dark One, who uses the power of the Darkness to heal Hook’s wound and save his life, but now the Darkness cannot be destroyed with Exaclibur as its is bound to it and to Emma, which also means that she and Lily can no longer keep it at bay. The flashback is a fragmented one - each time it flashes back, it is to the life of a different would-be Dark One, and we see the reason as to why they took on the Darkness. The episode ends with Charon’s boat carrying Nimue and all those Dark Ones to the land of the living and meeting with Rumple, an after-effect of the Darkness being bound to the full sword of Excalibur rather than just the tip, as they plan to finally snuff out the light. 

5x09 - Exact same as the real 5x09, but without Merida vowing revenge on Arthur. This is her only appearance, and is mainly there to set up Ruby and Mulan’s role later on down the road.

5x10 - As the newest Dark One, Emma can now sense that the other Dark Ones have arrived and are gathering their strength to attack Camelot. She asks Merlin to kill her and thus destroy the Darkness, but Merlin says it cannot be done now - if she was stabbed with Exaclibur, whoever killed her would only become the next Dark One. Lancelot says that they can at least destroy the physical bodies of the dead Dark Ones, mentioning that they came from the Underworld from a mystical lake, and that it’s the same lake his mother lives under and that she may provide the key to defeating them. The flashback is about Lancelot, how he left the lake and came to be known as the Leviathan, and how he met Arthur and joined the Round Table. At the lake, they find that Lancelot’s mother was actually part of the Darkness’ scheme all along, letting this lake be used for their purposes because she wanted Camelot destroyed in order to avenge her son, as she blamed Camelot for causing his exile and supposed death at the hands of Cora. Now knowing that he is alive, Lancelot’s mother is deeply regretful and tries to stand up to Nimue only to be killed by her. The episode ends with the heroes escaping and giving Lancelot’s mother a proper burial, while Nimue speaks with a disembodied voice within a blue flame (similar to how Merlin was in 4x19), promising him the souls of everyone in Camelot. The voice is, of course, Hades, performed by Greg Germann. 

5x11 - No flashbacks here, just an epic stand-off to decide the fate of Camelot. The heroes come in with Emma defeating and detaining Arthur and Zelena with ease now that she’s the Dark One, taking charge of the castle and kingdom as they prepare to defend it from the approaching army of Dark Ones. Even in this dark time, every hero gets a moment to shine, including Hook who gets to strike down Rumple, and Henry who defends Violet even while establishing that he fully accepts that he’s “just friends” with her...with this ironically actually causing Violet to develop some attraction toward him. Merlin researches in his library alongside Belle this whole time and discovers a means to destroy the Darkness - a way to channel it into someone else and then have that person be stabbed with the blade it is also channeled in. Merlin prepares to do this to himself so that Emma can stab him with Exaclibur, but Nimue kills him before he can finish the spell. Seeing no other choice, Hook steps up and completes the spell, taking on the Darkness and begging Emma to stab him. Through her tears, she does so, killing Hook and destroying the Darkness. Emma rightly blames herself for this happening, trying to save Hook’s life only to end up having to kill him herself as a result of it. But then, the heroes find a message from Merlin that he magically recorded prior to his death, with him telling them that as a former Dark One, Emma can now summon Charon and gain passage to the Underworld, and that they must go there and defeat Hades, the mastermind behind this whole thing. Emma realizes that while doing that, she can split her heart with Hook and revive him. The episode ends with everyone being transported back to Storybrooke except for Emma, Snow, Charming, Regina, Robin and Henry, who return to the lake and board Charon’s boat, Emma saying “Hook, I will find you. I will always find you.”

5x12 - When the heroes arrive in the Underworld, they are greeted by an unexpected guide: Mr. Gold. He tells them that even in death he was comatose until the Darkness / Rumple was destroyed and that he will help them get Hook back in order to repay him for that favor. Unlike in the actual S5, at this point it truly looks like Gold might just be a good guy now and that he actually wants to help out. The rest of the episode, however, is essentially the same as the actual 5x12, even down to the last scene featuring the physical debut of Germann’s Hades.

5x13 - The same as the actual 5x13, but without the insulting Regina/Snow “pep talk”.

5x14 - Mostly the same as the actual 5x14, but a difference comes when Hades abducts Gold and gives him the offer to join him. Gold adamantly refuses until Hades reveals his trump card: the Darkness, which had gone to the Underworld when it was destroyed. Hades tells Gold that he will give it all to him, making him the Darkest Dark One, if he joins him. Gold’s resolve crumbles and, like the selfish coward he is, accepts the deal and the Darkness. He proceeds to throw Milah into the River of Lost Souls and claim Hades did it, and allow Hades to write the names of Emma, Snow and Regina on grave stones so that they can’t leave the Underworld. The episode ends with the reveal of Belle being pregnant due to sleeping with Gold during Isaac’s AU in 4x21/4x22, and that Hades out-Rumpled him with this deal because he now has the contract from the shaman that he signed long ago.

5x15 - Mostly the same as the actual 5x15, but with some key differences. Hook is feeling down because of the psychological effect of Hades’ torture of him rather than because he had been Dark Hook. He believes that maybe, now that he’s dead, he should stay that way because it’s what someone like him, who committed so many bad deeds, deserves. His depression in the present and past is treated purely sympathetically and correctly, rather than the bizarre notion that it’s him being “inherently vulnerable to darkness” ��and implying that he needs the love of a pure woman to redeem him. The entirety of the subplot featuring Henry, the Apprentice, Charming and Cruella is removed, having been moved to the next episode.

5x16 - This episode focuses on the Underworld and explores more of how it works. The stuff with Henry, the Apprentice, Charming and Cruella occurs here, with James also entering the picture as the antagonist for the main plot, trying to capture the heroes for the crime of bringing hope into the Underworld, which ends with a fight between him and Charming where James ends up falling into the River of Lost Souls.  Regina is also shown to actually be making amends to her victims, giving her legit redemption. The episode ends with Hades having Gold bring him Zelena’s baby from Storybrooke, which also brings Zelena and Belle.

5x17 - Mostly the same as the actual 5x16, but Dorothy is removed from the flashback and thus more time is spent actually developing the relationship between Hades and Zelena.

5x18 - The start of the episode is the final scene from the actual 5x17, where Ruby is transported to the Underworld. The adventure she had in Oz did not involve Dorothy, but instead was just her and Mulan, who developed feelings for each other. Mulan’s grandmother is in the Underworld in place of Auntie Em, suffering the same fate. Belle, feeling frantic after the revelation that she’s pregnant and reuniting with Gold only to learn that he is now the Darkest Dark One and doesn’t intend on changing, goes to Zelena and gets a Sleeping Curse to place herself under in order to stop her baby from being born, thus protecting it from Hades. The episode ends with Charming carving his name on the gravestone so that Snow can leave the Underworld with Ruby, both going to Oz where Ruby gives Mulan a TLK.

5x19 - Mostly the same as the actual 5x19, except that the James subplot has been cut due to James being dealt with in 5x16, and more meaningful character moments are in its place. 

5x20 - Mostly the same as the actual 5x20, except that the flashback is entirely different, focusing on Zeus and Hades’ backstory and showing just how evil Hades is with a heart.

5x21 - Mostly the same as the actual 5x21, except that Arthur outright says rather than visually implies that his big goal in ruling the Underworld will be to help the Lost Souls recover their identities and move on now that they are able to be free from the river, and Robin is NOT killed, with Zelena’s entrance back into the room happening before Hades can use the Olympian Crystal on either him or Regina, and Robin helps Regina talk sense into Zelena. The ending is the same, with Gold claiming the leftover fragment of the Olympian Crystal.

5x22 - As everyone celebrates Hook’s miraculous return to life, Gold siphons all the magic of Storybrooke with the Olympian Crystal. His plan is to then take it out into the Land Without Magic, which will create a magical paradox that will draw the magic from all magical realms to him. All magical realms will be destroyed, the Laws of Magic will be broken, and he can free Belle and their unborn child from Pandora’s Box (and also have everything). The heroes split up, some using Merlin’s wand to evacuate denizens of magical realms that are being destroyed to the center of all realms (as seen from using Jefferson’s hat), and others pursuing Gold in hopes of reclaiming and destroying the Olympian Crystal. Gold, meanwhile, is slowly transforming into full-on imp!Rumple as a side-effect of the magic paradox. It comes down to a battle between Emma and Rumple, which ultimately causes Pandora’s Box to fall through a portal into the center of all realms, where most of the other heroes and refugees from other realms are now stranded, as the destructive dark cloud draws nearer to them.

5x23 - Rumple is stricken with guilt, but still retreats and tries to go about reversing this disaster his own way, through a ritual using the Olympian Crystal. When this fails, he breaks down and returns to being Gold. Emma, Lily, Henry and Violet find him and convince him to help them, as they’ve found all sorts of notes on magic in Neal’s apartment that August had gathered in his travels and given to Neal. They reveal the way to end this crisis, which by this point is even threatening the Land Without Magic - the wielder of the Olympian Crystal must siphon their own life force to it and thus be able to shatter it. The magic stored in it will be released, but die out unless channeled through someone born of True Love, the most powerful magic of all, which will save magic and all the realms but might just kill the channeler. They all prepare to do this when Rumple, as an avatar of the Darkness, appears and tries to tempt Gold into not doing it, into just letting Belle and their unborn child die because once the Laws of Magic are broken, he can bring them back to life anyway. But Gold is finally able to resist, unable to let his loved ones die once even if he could bring them back afterward. He sacrifices himself, killing Rumple as well, and unleashing the magic which Emma then channels and releases as a wave of True Love, restoring all the realms and all of their friends, even freeing Belle from the box and waking her, and even erasing all of her natural darkness from Lily. Emma seems to die, but Henry’s TLK revives her. The show ends with a montage of everyone’s happy ending, foremost being Emma and Hook’s engagement and marriage. Heck, maybe even this plays. And of course, they all live happily ever after.

[gch1995]

I completely agree with this about Rumplestiltskin, and, to be honest, pretty much every other remaining main character on OUAT after Rumple’s contrived resurrection and Nealfire’s completely unfair death. You could even start to see what would eventually turn into a wash, rinse, and repeat cycle of character assassinating writing for Rumple, Belle, Emma, Snow, David, Henry, Hook, and Regina at the prompting of said nonsensical magical contrivances and twists at the start of 2B, such as when we got the whole “the boy will be your undoing” storyline for Rumple that came out of nowhere. There were a few more instances of this in 2B, but the writers didn’t start resorting to straight up destroying the characters original personalities to put them through a wash, rinse, and repeat cycle over and over again until the end of 3B. That was really when the character assassinatin, flanderdization, and repetitive writing really started.

Granted, I do think part of the reason why Rumple in particular got flanderdized and demonized post S3 was because Kitsowitz and the writers wanted to make Regina, Zelena, and especially Hook/CS look better without having to put in any effort to actually make them better. Rumple was a villain in S4 the end of 5A, and in 6A. There were ways in which they easily could have made his demeanor and motives to be dark more relatable and in-character. For instance, the main reason for why he wanted to use the hat in S4 should have been focused upon him not wanting to be controlled by the dagger again after he got imprisoned by Zelena for a year, resurrected at the price of losing the son he spent so much time trying to find and died to make amends with, and wanting more power to protect his remaining loved ones (Belle and Henry). Instead, the writers had Rumple giving an “It’s all about me” monologue, making a ridiculous potential world domination insinuation to Hook, and showed him once using that stupid hat in the past to gather a bunch of power. It was implied a little bit that Rumple also wanted to use this hat to free himself from the dagger because use he never wanted to be controlled again in both the past and present. However, the way it focused so much on him wanting the power because “It’s all about me, and screw what anyone else thinks,” and that underhanded world domination insinuation really made the framing of his characterization feel incredibly off.

We still did get moments of the more in-character, sympathetically motivated, deeply insecure, and deeply terrified villain Rumple in S4, 5B, and 6A, who felt he was unlovable, and just wanted to protect his family. Yet, the writers also interspersed it with this ridiculously flanderdized, cartoonishly evil, cold, conniving, greedy, and power-hungry unsympathetic villain characterization that just did not fit him at all, and since we stopped getting a clear and consistent picture of his whole POV when he behaved in those ways as the villain, it was really OOC. It became harder to distinguish between what was the man and what was the mask of the monster post S3 because we didn’t get the full picture anymore, whereas it was pretty obvious in S1-3A when he and Belle were still being written as a consistently relatable and sympathetic character, in spite of their obvious flaws.

There’s also the fact that many of the ways in which Rumple and many the other characters on this show backslid felt increasingly contrived, ridiculous, and unfair post 2A.

Like, Rumple wouldn’t have regressed to villainy again in 4A, if the Kitsowitz and the writers hadn’t deliberately broken their own rule that the dead couldn’t be resurrected, and Rumple hadn’t just happened to find that stupid magical hat from Fantasia in the house, which could very conveniently allow him to gather enough power to cleave himself from the dagger, while still being able to keep the magic of the curse.

Hook wouldn’t have regressed to a cartoonishly evil sociopath hell-bent on killing the entire town in 5A to get revenge on his girlfriend, if Emma hadn’t told him that she brought him back from the dead as a Dark One explicitly against his wishes.

Emma never would have been able to bring back Hook from the dead as a Dark One against his explicit wishes, if Kitsowitz and the writers hadn’t deliberately ignored their own previously established canonical rules that the dead couldn’t be resurrected, and there could only be one Dark One at a time because the curse could only be passed on to someone else by that said person killing the current Dark One.

Snowing never would have kidnapped and harmed Maleficent’s baby to “save” Emma by magically cutting out her darkness to put it in Lily, if it hadn’t been prophesied that Emma had potential for great darkness.

And so on...This problem started showing up a little in S2. It became increasingly infuriating just how ridiculously contrived and effortless, the plot made it for these characters to regress.

There’s also the fact that Kitsowitz and the writers were just putting all these remaining main characters on the show through the Aesop Amnesia trope over and over again post 3A in increasingly OOC, inconsistent, flanderdized, ridiculous, and unsympathetic ways because they had no idea WTF else to do with any of them after the Neverland arc. Those were the ultimate endgame arcs they had in mind for Emma, Regina, Snow, David, Rumple, Belle, Henry, and even Hook. They obviously had no idea where else to go with these characters after that arc because they ran out of story, and they were too lazy and too stupid to follow through on any organic opportunities for growth at every turn in favor of forcing the characters back to the wash, rinse, and repeat cycles every time, no matter how much they had to butcher the characters credibility, intelligence, likability, and the universe in which they existed to force them back to said status quo arcs.

This increasingly contrived, character destroying, and rule breaking Aesop Amnesia trope wasn’t just a problem in the writing on the show with Rumple post S3, but every other remaining main character on it as well.

How many times did Emma have to learn how to open herself up to faith and love?

How many times did Hook have to learn that vengeance was never going to bring him peace, and have to learn to accept blame for his own bad choices?

How many times had Belle been conflicted over her feelings for Rumple after they had a fight, walked and/or ran away from him when he did and/or behaved in a way she didn’t approve of, then had to realize that she has a dark side herself, and had to realize that morality isn’t black-and-white?

How many times did Regina have to realize that she couldn’t fill the hole in her heart by blaming others for her bad choices, and/or trying to magically erase them, rather than taking full responsibility for them?

How many times did Snow and David have a dark secret that they were keeping? How many times has Snow let loose personal or secret information loose when she shouldn’t have ?

How many times did Rumple “finally” make the right choice after regressing to being evil again to fix a problem with magic in the wrong way due to the prompting of some bizarre magical twist, prophecy, or macguffin that came out of nowhere, and realizing that being good beforehand felt worthless because the writing in the universe of OUAT had some sort of ridiculously shitty and unfair hidden agenda against him, which made being good blow up in his face almost every time, causing him to lose his loved ones whenever he did try, anyway? Although, I suppose he sort of got a “happy ending” with Belle at the end of S7, though it still felt ridiculously contrived, gross and unfair how he “had” to die to break the curse, “had” to lose Belle when they were finally happy together for so many years, Nealfire and Gideon weren’t even mentioned, the standards for him to be good were ridiculously high and unfair, and his main motivation to be good in S7 was so that he could get into heaven to be with Belle, not for more selfless means to save everyone from an immediate threat that could only be stopped by his death with Pan, unlike in “Going Home.”

How many times had Henry tried to bring his family together, and tried to save the other fairytale characters?

You get the idea. Most of these characters and relationships in canon OUAT devolved into ridiculously annoying, repetitive, and stupid caricatures, not just because Kitsowitz and the writers desired to prop up their creator pets without putting in much, if any, effort at all to actually make them better people (Regina, Zelena, and especially Hook), but also because they refused to develop them originally and organically past their S1-3A arcs. They forced most of them into a status quo over and over again, no matter how much they had to butcher them to do it.

Decided to bring this back, as to why I finally quit watching OUAT after season 5 and took a break from the fandom.

@thestraggletag

@violetfaust

@themomentyouarefree

@once-upon-rumbelle

@onceuponarumple

@ouatlovr

@angel-starbeam

The Problem with Rumple’s Redemption

Robert Carlyle is a great actor and he plays Rumplestiltskin, a compelling character who is complex and whose redemption arc is solid gold to watch. It’s a man you can sympathise with, who has had a hard life and who does horrible things for very noble or good reasons and who is, therefore, very human, but also immortal and therefore unique in the way he sees the world and interacts with him. That’s why his redemption time, the crown jewel of his redemption arc, is such a powerful moment. It’s very much like the breaking of the curse in SB: it just makes for great TV and writing-wise it’s just a pleasure to tackle. It makes the audience emotional and deeply invested in the story, and it’s hella satisfying to watch.

… which might explain why the writers keep hitting rewind and making him do it again.

Over and over.

By now the song and dance is the same: Rumple, in order to protect his loved ones and guarantee the happiness of his little family, makes all the wrong choices, appearing at once both clueless that he’s going about things the wrong way, seduced by the darkness, or downright self-aware, depending on who writes the episode and what side of Rumple they’re exploring. At some point he’s called on it by the right person or at the right time and somehow realises he can’t behave that way. Then, in order to atone for his sins or as a way to right some wrong he makes some sort of beautiful, selfless sacrifice that Robert Carlyle makes into some sort of work of art.

Then he’s neutral for a while, then he goes back to being the man who makes all the wrong choices for all the right reasons. And though this could have been justified before with Bobby’s interpretation that Rumple is an addict, and even addicts who seek to rehabilitate themselves sometimes fall back to old patterns and struggle to make right choices, this doesn’t really fly anymore, mostly because every time Rumple “rewinds” he seems to entirely forget what he’s learned. 

Though of course his self-sacrificing redemptive act should not magically turn him into someone else, nor does it mean he automatically should be embraced as a hero (we all know whose faulty redemptive arc I’m talking about here) it DOES mean his character should EVOLVE, should CHANGE, should show the impact of the monumental moment. But the writers aren’t really interested in exploring the grey areas of a character like Rumple (the only character they do that for is Regina), what they love about him are those great “turn around” moments and so they send him back to square one, to rinse and repeat.

They have a similar reaction to the curse. They love breaking the curse, they love starting with characters with memory loss or altered identities, taking them on a journey of self-discovery while the audience ALSO discovers how they got there and who they are and then breaking the curse, having the happy reunions and such. But the aftermath of the curse seems to bore them. There’s no longer the drama of families torn about, lovers who don’t know recognise each other and a believer who is trying to make things right, to solve the puzzle before it’s too late and evil wins. So they do it again. And again. And again.

Rumple has had his “pivotal redemptive moment” several times now: he “killed” himself so he could take down his papa, Peter Pan, he chose to try and save his son instead of his dagger, thus resulting in his enslavement, he’s both killed his mother and also, and more importantly, battled with the personification of the darkness itself, overcoming its temptation and more recently chosen to save Alice from an unhappy life of immortality and disconnection, opting to shoulder the burden of the DO curse himself and remain separated from Belle. And I loved all those moment, and Bobby acted the FUCK out of them, and they made for some AMAZING TV. The problem is that they’re all the SAME moment, the same story repeating over and over.

Surprisingly, this kinda works for a lot of viewers. After each of these moments they’re always people who go “FINALLY Rumple did the right thing!”, or some variation of it, as if it’s BRAND NEW to have the character dramatically sacrifice something in the nick of time to save everyone, at the same time dooming himself. It really isn’t, though. And anyone who actually likes Rumple or is somehow invested in his story KNOWS this, and thus there is a certain level of annoyance and dissatisfaction with the whole thing, an unpleasant aftertaste, a sense that we’ve been here before, and should not be back here again.

That’s my whole problem with Rumple’s continuous redemptive arc, though Bobby always plays it magnificently and always tries to add a layer of character growth where there is none. And fanfiction writers do the rest. You guys are awesome, you respect and acknowledge the evolution of Rumple that’s disregarded in canon because the writers seem to just love redeeming Rumple too much to let it go.

There is going to be one more of these selfless acts of sacrifice and though I’m sure that Bobby will play it beautifully and it’ll be amazing, it’ll also feel annoyingly familiar.

[believingispowerfulmagic]

OQ Prompt Party Day 4: “A Troubling Return”

Written for Day 4 of OQ Prompt Party 2020 using prompt 53: Daniel coming back in s3 finale instead of Marian

Set in the same verse of my Day 2 entry "Beyond the Call of Duty." I'm thinking of turning this into a bigger story so this is more of a snippet of a chapter I would eventually write and promises more to come! Thanks to everyone who already responded so well to "Beyond the Call of Duty" – I'm so glad you're all enjoying it!

           “Are you sure you want to go? You’ve had quite the week. Well, year, actually. Two, really,” Robin said, leaning out of the closet as he buttoned the blue shirt Regina had picked out for him. “I’m sure Mary Margaret and David will understand if we decide to skip out. We can actually get some sleep.”

           Regina paused as she put in her earrings, having to admit that her boyfriend’s suggestion was tempting. Ever since Henry had discovered his adoption paperwork and Mary Margaret had given him the storybook, her life had been an unending series of trials. She was exhausted and wanted nothing more than to get a good night’s rest in Robin’s arms, with her head resting on his chest so that his heartbeat provided the soundtrack to her dreams.

           She always got the best rest then.

           But she shook her head, standing from her vanity. “I think Mary Margaret and I had a turning point after the séance with my mother’s spirit and maybe this our second chance. So as tempting as that offer was, I do want to go and be there for her.”

           “Alright,” Robin said, stepping forward and rubbing her arms. “But if we can leave early, promise me you’ll take the chance? You need rest.”

           One of the many things that Regina loved about Robin was that he was a nurturer, always wanting to take care of everybody. It had first manifested in the Enchanted Forest when he was stealing from the rich to give to the poor and now that they were Storybrooke, it grew with the knowledge the first curse had given him to be an EMT. She knew that sometimes she wasn’t the greatest at taking care of herself and he balanced that out, making sure she had what she needed to keep going – food, water, an encouraging word, a hug or a good night’s sleep.

           She nodded. “I promise.”

           “Good. I’m still concerned about that headache you had earlier,” he said, gently pushing some hair from her forehead.

           “I told you it was nothing,” she replied, though she had to admit it had been concerning at the time. It had come on quickly and had been so intense, her knees had buckled and she almost blacked out. Thankfully Robin had been there to catch her and had talked her through it. While it was short in duration, it had taken her some time to recuperate.

           But she was fine now, which she reminded him.  

           “Alright,” he said, grinning as he took her hand. “Let’s go get Roland. I’m sure he’s getting antsy downstairs.”

           They headed downstairs to find Roland sitting on the couch with his head against the back and an exaggerated bored expression on his face. Regina reached out for his hand and he hopped off the couch, telling her that she and his papa had taken “forever” to get ready. She apologized and helped him into his jacket before Robin helped her into her coat. As she buttoned hers up, Robin grabbed his car keys and ushered everyone to his car.

           It was a short trip to Granny’s and they entered as a family, Robin and Regina flanking Roland as they held his hand. Most of the town was gathered in the space and people greeted them as they tried to find some space to claim for themselves, some of them even acknowledging Regina as warmly as they did Robin.

           That was an improvement.

           “Mom! Robin! Roland!” Henry raced over to them, throwing his arms around her and hugging her tightly. She held him close, cupping the back of his head as she rocked him gently.

           He then pulled away and hugged Robin, who engulfed him in a bear hug. “It’s good to have you back, Henry.”

           “I’m glad to be back,” Henry replied, eyes lighting up. “Can I come home with you tonight? Please?”

           “Of course, sweetheart,” Regina assured him, taking his hand. “Your room is waiting for you.”

           Roland cheered before hugging Henry. “I’ve missed you, Henry.”

           “I missed you too, Roland,” Henry said, hugging him back. “I’m really happy to be back.”

           Regina and Robin hugged the boys and they stood in the middle of Granny’s, just hugging as a family. As Regina held her boys closer, Robin kissed her forehead. She closed her eyes, still amazed she had finally gotten everything she had thought taken from her back in the stables.

           Love.

           Family.

           Happiness.

           “May we have everyone’s attention, please?” David asked, standing with Mary Margaret as she held their son.

           Breaking their hug, Regina stood with her arms wrapped around Henry and Roland while Robin rested his hand on her shoulder. They turned with everyone as a hush fell over the diner, everyone eager to hear the name of the newest resident of Storybrooke.

           After they explained why they chose the name and right before Regina got too antsy, they finally introduced their son to the town. “Please welcome Neal Nolan,” Mary Margaret said.

           People clapped and so did Regina though she glanced over at Emma, wondering what the woman thought about her parents naming her brother after the man she had a child with. She just kept smiling, though, so Regina figured if it wasn’t sitting right with her, Emma would deal with it later.

           “That’s going to be weird,” Henry commented. “When people say ‘Neal,’ I won’t know if they are talking about my dad or my uncle. Oh, wow, I have a baby uncle.”

           Regina laughed, hugging him. “Yes, you do. And I’m sure you’ll figure it out. But it’ll be an adjustment for all of us.”

           He sighed, shrugging. “I guess so. I’m gonna go spend some time with them. Promise not to leave without me?”

           “Wouldn’t dream of it,” she assured him, letting him go. He grinned at her before hurrying off to be with the rest of his family.

           Robin reached for her hand again. “Come on. The Merry Men have saved us seats and have already ordered Roland dessert.”

           “Of course. Because they don’t have to deal with his sugar rush later,” she said, rolling her eyes. There wasn’t much bite in her words, though. She knew how much the Merry Men loved Roland and had even taken Henry in as their own. While it had taken some time, she had managed to build a mutual respect with them during the Missing Year and was almost one of them.

           “How are you, Regina?” Tuck asked as they approached, looking concerned. “We heard about your sister. I know she tried to kill you and also erase your very existence but I’m sorry for your loss.”

           A lump formed in her throat as she thought of her sister. She had always wanted one but it certainly didn’t go the way she had hoped. Zelena had opted to destroy herself rather than accept Regina’s offer at a new life. Even after everything she had put Regina and her family through, it still hurt.

           She reached out and took Tuck’s hand, giving it a squeeze. “Thank you.”

           “I say you deserve some cake,” Little John said, holding out a plate with a slice of vanilla cake with vanilla icing. “Cake always cheers me up.”

           “I think you know what I’m thinking,” she teased him, taking the cake from him. Little John laughed in response and nodded.

           Robin kissed the side of her head. “Why don’t you sit and I’ll get you a drink, okay?”

           She thanked him and the men shifted so she could sit next to Roland as he enjoyed his slice of cake with a glass of milk. He grinned as he looked down at her own plate. “The cake is really good, Mom,” he told her.

           “Good to know,” she said, taking a bit. It was a bit sweet for her taste but otherwise Roland was right – the cake was really good.

           Robin returned and set a glass of red wine down in front of her. He slid in next to her, wrapping his arm around her and started up a conversation with his men. They started to share stories and jokes as Regina relaxed some more.

           She really, really was glad her sister hadn’t succeeded in her plan and that she could continue enjoying the life she had worked hard to build. And that she got to experience the happiness she had only ever seen in others.

           It was a dream come true.

Continue reading on FFN, AO3 or Wattpad

[thebigmick284]

OUAT 2B rewatch thoughts

Messy thoughts ahead.

 As a whole I think 2A was stronger but 2B had better character material. Mainly due to the Greg and Tamara material. It isn’t bad (it’s still better than anything 4B onwards) but while Greg/Owen is fairly well developed, Tamara is left lacking and we know next to nothing about their organisation. However the season ends strongly with the darker Peter Pan reveal and almost the entire cast heading off to rescue Henry in Neverland.

Also I elect to change the episode groupings for Season Two. Eps 1-9 are 2A, 10-17 are 2B and 18-22 are 2C. Also headcanoning Tamara as an orphan as it fits with the Peter Pan Home Office.

Some general character thoughts.

*Snow- I forgot to add in my 2A thoughts I really love how Ginnifer portrays Snow and then Mary Margaret. Especially after watching S1 and then having Snow come back in S2, you can see how different they are. Props to her. Snow gets some great material in 2B but the defining part is her manipulating Regina to kill Cora. I kinda feel this is where Snow’s whitewashing of Regina begins... 

*Emma- I kinda feel everyone getting their memories back and all the feuds of the past take over Emma’s story and she’s left a little to the side. She still gets great moments like learning magic, fighting Tamara and confronting Neal again though. JMO does a great job especially in episodes such as ‘Manhattan’.

*Regina- Just like that I don’t like her again. While she does have some moments- like in 2x22 she rightfully says that everything that has happened is her fault, destroying a curse she was going to use on Henry after he begs her and the ‘Let me die as Regina’ moment was great... but the rest is her just being full on full on Evil Queen again- including the oh so annoying seeing herself as the victim. I feel in some moments like 2x17 Parrilla plays Regina as very mentally ill which would have been more interesting to explore. @deliriumdecadence​ can probably write this better than me.

*Charming- Like Emma, Charming is kinda left to the side. I mean he does great moments supporting Emma and Snow but yeah... Especially after 2A where he was so prominent. 

*Belle- Oh, Belle... to me 2B is the death of Rumbelle. After 2x11, I find myself asking what even Rumple asks her- ‘ After everything you’ve learned about me, after everything I’ve done, why haven’t you given up on me?’ She responds- ‘ I learned a long time ago, that when you find something that’s worth fighting for, you never give up’.

I’m sorry, what? What?! The writing fails to convince me just why Belle should be fighting for her relationship with Rumple or even why she loves him at all. True, Rumple does have some good qualities but by large and overwhelming so the darkness is bigger. Is it worth all that? I don’t think so, I’d be seeing run, run away before you get hurt or killed. Especially after finding out Rumple killed his first wife. Don’t get me started on her ‘you stole his wife’ to Hook...She comes off as foolish. She’s kinda neglected before being brought back as Lacey which could have been interesting if it went longer. Ugh, all of it just angers me so much...

Hook- Unfortunately Colin breaking his leg really impacts Hook in 2B. But he does get some great moments such as 2x11 and 2x22. Thankfully S3 is up next which is when Hook’s character really takes off.

Henry- He becomes a little annoying here. Like his attitude when he meets Neal and realises Emma lied to him, thinking in terms of heroes and villains etc. He is still a child though so I can kinda forgive him.

Rumple- Starting off Carlyle does fantastic work here- especially with MRJ. But 2B highlights that Rumple just loves being dark and having power. It’s just kinda hard to feel for him. He finally reunites with Bae after centuries and again neglects him in the end. I feel his relationship with Belle is more about how she can comfort him more than anything he can do for her. While Snow manipulated Regina to kill Cora, it was Rumple goading her into it as well.

Neal- Again,yet again I kinda feel like Neal is neglected with all the going ons of this half of the season- even his own centric episode! I feel Adam and Eddy built up to Neal being Bae so much they just didn’t know what to do with him next. 

I don’t like his attitude around Emma- ‘we’re all messed up’ and letting Henry say things to Emma etc but I found his growing relationship the best thing about his character in 2B. He did have some poignant moments with Rumple- ‘ You know what I’ve dealt with? Every night, for more years than you could know, the last thing I see before sleep, is the image of you… You and me, over that pit. Your hand… Wrapped around mine. And then, you open your grip. And as I fall away, all I can see is your face. Choosing all…this…crap over me.’ All the more haunting knowing he was in Neverland for centuries.

As for Swanfire, I just can’t get into it. I just feel Emma and Hook’s interactions are much more fresh and interesting and dynamic. There is so much pain to Emma when she is around Neal and I get that she loves him but I like what they did in 3A with how that was resolved. 

Other random things.

*I used to think Cora’s death was too soon but rewatching it felt like it came to a fitting end. Barbara Hershey and Rose McGowan did fantastic jobs with the character and I did kinda feel for her when she finally got her heart back but died... ‘You would have been enough’. Love Cora so much.

*Really felt for Anton- especially how humans tell the- wrong- history of his race. Why did the beans grow so quickly in SB though when it took a century in the EF though? 

*I think S2 is as a whole is better than S1 but S1 is better because it’s a lot more straightforward and accessible. That doesn’t make sense...

*In 2x17 Neal mentions being a dad for 3 days... So he really only had very little time with Henry... :(

[drnucleus]

OUAT Awake Short Meta

Okay so, @captainstudmuffin and I have had a lil episode chat.

Things we learned - Rumple did not from what we see take the potion to put himself back under the dark curse. WHICH MEANS HE WAS AWAKE FOR 18 MORE YEARS WAITING FOR EMMA. And that means back in S3 when we learned that Gold procured a child for Regina to adopt that he SPECIFICALLY MANIPULATED IT to be Emma’s child, the savior’s child. He knew Henry was Emma’s kid (not that he was also Bae’s kid too but whatever). He must have found that there was a baby up for adoption and did some digging on the mother only to realize that it’s the son of the savior. This was all so that he would bring Emma to Storybrooke when she was 28. So when Regina suspected that was the case and he played coy he was doing his “dark one lies, dark one tricks” mentality. 

Regina then took the memory potion to ease her fears. And as far as we know was a loving mom until Henry realized that 1. he’s adopted and 2. that the town wasn’t changing, no one was aging. So when he began to question it that’s when she began to be toxic and try to make him think he was insane so he would stop questioning the town and by default her. Then the book shows up to Mary Margaret and she gives it to Henry just when he needs hope the most (and mind you the book isn’t just there to bring him hope but is intrinsically tied to his destiny as the next author). The book shows him that he’s not crazy that there is indeed hope left, and he begins to believe and it leads him to seek his long lost mother. To find the savior and return her to Storybrooke and her family to bring back the happy endings and fight the final battle. 

Like we’ve gotten this story disjointed in bits and pieces throughout 6 seasons now which can lead for many of us to think that the writing is “shoddy” or not planned out well but when you put these things together it shows the grander design that A&E had from the beginning is really a bit better and more well thought out when pieced into a more linear storyline instead of the flashback format we’ve gotten. Yes there are plotholes and sometimes some pieces of plot are forgotten about and some rules bent or overlooked in favor of a more plot desirable outcome. 

Then there is the pixie flower during the curse - a single pixie flower. Liz made an important point that it was probably growing in response to Regina - who was at the time quite evil but pales in comparison to the Black Fairy who had an entire field of them growing.  Snow and Charming finally opening up and saying that they sacrificed everything not once but twice so that they could save everyone further demonstrates their status as heroes even if that meant Emma had to grow up without real love in her life until she broke the curse and reunited with them. And to repay them for their sacrifices everyone took on a bit of their curse to save them when Charming and Snow had sacrificed everything for the rest of town. 

And then there’s Gideon who didn’t destroy all the flowers to indicate there was still good inside him, that he may be redeemable if his heart is released from the Black Fairy’s clutches. He did that specifically to give either a gateway to Hook to help Emma, or to restore her parents. I’m banking on him atoning for trying to kill her and separating her and Hook by giving her a path to reunite them. That way the Savior is at her strongest when she is surrounded by those she loves most. Her parents, Hook and Henry. And that will be the key to ending the Black Fairy, because she is alone and Emma is not. 

All of this makes me super excited for the next few episodes!

[gch1995]

This was one of the very few genuinely good moments about the OOC Rumbelle clusterfuck of season sucks-erm...six that didn’t make me want to punch A&E and these writers in the faces for destroying my two favorite characters/otp.

I didn’t watch this season and I never ever will because the writing for both Rumple and Belle’s individual characterizations, their relationship together, and their storylines had become so ridiculously OOC, contrived, cheesy, blatantly emotionally manipulative, mercurial, repetitive, and toxic that I couldn’t take it anymore. They had completely ruined canon!Belle for me by that well scene in 5x10.

I didn’t think that Rumple was necessarily OOC in 5B after taking back the curse on a surface level, nor did I think that it was wrong for him to ask her to accept that he wanted to keep power if they were going to be together again, so long as he kept working on being honest with her and kept trying to be a better man by fighting it back. He actually seemed closer to the morally gray/neutral reforming anti-villain/antihero Rumple from S1-3A that I desperately wanted back on the show without the annoying team hero and team villain extremes that they forced him into from the end of 3B-5A.

However, A&E and these writers certainly weren’t doing Rumple’s character many favors in 5B either with these uncharacteristically flat and one-dimensional bullshit explanations of taking back the curse because “It’s who I am” and “I like the darkness.”

Plus, I knew that Eddy was going to make Rumple look really bad by having him go off the deep end by lashing out at Belle sooner or later after he took back the curse. Would it make any organic or in-character sense for Rumple to suddenly start treating Belle like an erratic and increasingly unhinged jackass when we saw how he was seemingly normal/neutral in the UW in 5B all the way up to 6x03, even after taking back an upgraded version of the Dark One’s curse in 5x11? No, of course not. This totally abrupt, bizarre, increasingly blindly controlling, cold, borderline manipulative, and threatening almost complete 180 personality reversal of the very core of who Rumple had always been with Belle in their relationship from the moment he started falling in love with her in every other moment on the show with the exception of 6x04-6x09, still doesn’t make sense, and it never will. But it made the small remaining majority of the GA of this trashfire show of beautiful wasted potential, mostly made up of Hook/CS stans forget the fact that Hook and Emma still treated each other far worse as the Dark One duo in just seven weeks under the curse’s influence in 5A than Rumple had ever treated Belle or Bae as the Dark One in over three centuries, even at his worst and most OOC after taking back the Dark One 2.0 curse in 6A, anyway.

Not that much of Belle’s characterization in 6A was any better, but I had gotten used to her being a walking self-contradictory OOC plot device to push Rumple towards redemption, or to pull him away from it to prop up Hook, Regina, Zelena more and more ever since the end of 3B when she went from saying that she “loved all of Rumple, even the darkest parts” to abruptly seemingly not knowing him at all when she told him “the monster is gone” in their wedding vows, even though he was still the Dark One and had just lost his son. So, it didn’t phase me anymore if Belle contradicted herself and went back on her own once previously established strongly rooted personal values and traits of bravery, compassion, self-respect, open-mindedness, intuition, common sense, empathy, and understanding from S1-S3 ish in her arcs with Rumple anymore from the end of 3B to the end of S6 in the writers desire to vilify him by misusing her as an OOC naïve, cowardly, controlling, demanding, hypocritical, sometimes cruel, impatient, reckless, selfish, self-righteous, and borderline emotionally manipulative whiplash plot device in his storyline who hung out with Hook, Zelena, and/or Regina. It no longer phased me if Belle inexplicably went from being warm to cold in her demeanor towards Rumple from one scene/episode to the next in a timeline of a day or less, even when he didn’t do or say anything to deserve her anger, fear, or cruelty.

I didn’t need to see the last piece of consistent character credibility and integrity get torn to shreds in Rumple’s characterization in canon too, especially not when Rumple and his loved ones (Bae and Belle) had already been getting thrown under the bus enough as it already was for the sake of Eddy’s self-insert Captain Emo Douchebag’s “redemption” arc and Crapstain Swine. It’s like that one character and that one ship was a gross obsession for A&E and their entire writing crew, which infected, tainted, and/or destroyed everything that was once beautiful, good, and pure about this show that someone else helped them create in its wake, especially Rumple, Belle, Rumbelle, Nealfire, and Emma Swan. I wanted to like Hook at one point, but he was written to be such a Gary Stu that A&E and these writers ruined so much of what was once beautiful and pure about this show to inorganically shoehorn him in with a “redemption” arc as a romantic male lead next to Emma, even though Rumple, David, and Nealfire played that same role much more organically on this show in a way that actually stuck to the core theme of being a family who were all banded together with a common goal and familial ties.

[tomeandflickcorner]

OUAT Episode Analysis- A Wondrous Place

Well, overall, this episode wasn’t quite as bad as I was expecting it to be.  Sure, there were moments when I got annoyed, especially during the Storybrooke scenes, but it wasn’t quite reaching ‘throwing my bucket of popcorn at the screen’ annoyed.  

Thanks to Gideon’s interference, the Nautilus is sent through an underwater portal, with Killian still inside. And our pirate prince is freaking out.  Because he knows Emma better than anyone, and knows her abandonment issues are going to start kicking in if he doesn’t come home that night.  But Nemo tells Killian that a return trip is impossible, as the Nautilus’ ability to travel through underwater portals is fueled by Kraken Blood.  And that unexpected trip used up the last of their supply.  Basically, they’ve got a DeLorean without the Plutonium.  So Killian, refusing to accept this, is all ‘so let’s just get some more Kraken Blood, then.’  And Nemo is like ‘Are you crazy?  We’re supposed to run away from Krakens, not chase them down.’  Which makes me wonder how they managed to get Kraken Blood in the first place.  Maybe Kraken Blood is a marketable item in the nautical trade market?  Either way, Killian is not to be deterred, because he absolutely HAS to get back to Emma pronto.  Of course, when they do find a Kraken, their efforts at obtaining some of its blood are inadvertently thwarted by Aladdin and Jasmine.  Turns out, when they left Storybrooke with Jasmine’s wish to be taken to Agrabah, they ended up in the Enchanted Forest. The only clue Jasmine had was the appearance of a diamond ring, which was apparently the most treasured item from the royal treasure hold. More on that later.  Anyway, after Aladdin and Jasmine go on for a bit, with Aladdin throwing in some flirty banter, they end up on a rowboat.  See, Jasmine feels the fact that her wish simply brought the ring to her was a reminder that she failed to protect her kingdom and she should just accept defeat and give up.  So she decides to take a rowboat out and, after wishing for Aladdin’s freedom from the genie spell, she’ll drop the lamp into the ocean where it won’t harm anyone again. But they end up rowing right into the path of the Nautilus, thereby messing up the attempt at getting some Kraken Blood. So Killian drags them on board. After shouting at them for a bit for ruining his chance at getting back to Emma, they come up with a new plan. This one involves them locating Jafar. Because apparently, since he made Agrabah disappear, he can help send Killian back to Storybrooke somehow?  I admit I don’t really follow the logic here.  But Killian, upon hearing how Jafar has a vengeful soul, comes up with the idea of tracking Jafar down with Nemo’s magic spearhead thing.

Here the episode kind of segues for a bit, with both Jasmine and then Aladdin seeking Killian out for personal counsel.  Jasmine is upset because she feels like she acted like a coward when her people needed her the most and doesn’t feel like she’s worthy to be called a hero, and Aladdin is basically ‘hey do you think Jasmine likes likes me?  But Killian is in full-blown Tunnel Vision mode and only cares about getting back to Emma as soon as possible.  So he’s all ‘mate, I’m not a bloody matchmaker! When did people start seeing me as a marriage counselor?  I can barely communicate properly with my True Love!  How do you expect me to solve your relationship problems?!’  Also, I love how many times this episode throws the word ‘hero’ around, especially in terms of Killian.  The script is practically beating Killian over the head at this point, saying ‘dude, you’re a bonafide hero now.  And we’re gonna keep calling you that until you start believing it.’

At this point, Nemo steps in, announcing the Kraken badly damaged the Nautilus hull or something, and that it’s going to sink.  And they can’t get to the escape hatch because the corridor leading to that room is already flooded.  Or something to that effect.  While the nautical charts do show there’s an island nearby, the submarine is too badly damaged to get there in time.  So Jasmine uses her second wish, getting Genie Aladdin to transport them all to the island.  (I’m hoping that wish picked up the rest of the crew, too.  Because if they only brought Nemo and Liam 2.0 along and just left everyone else behind on a sinking submarine, it would have been a jerk move.) When they reach shore, Nemo and Liam 2.0 decide it’s time to part ways with Killian, Jasmine and Aladdin, because they plan to find a way to raise the sunken Nautilus. Not sure how they plan on doing that, but it’s apparently not impossible, as there are a few YouTube videos on the subject.  So Killian bids farewell to the two men, even having a brief moment with Liam 2.0.  On the one hand, I really like seeing the proof that Killian developed a good relationship with his half-brother, and the two even share a goodbye hug.  On the other, why exactly can’t Nemo and Liam 2.0 stick around?  Doesn’t Killian deserve to have friends outside of Emma, Henry and his future in-laws?  I mean, given the current situation with Gideon and the obvious conflict of interest, his friendship with Belle is probably on the rocks right now.

Anyway, Killian, Aladdin and Jasmine manage to track Jafar down to a run-down shack.  But their initial belief that the shack belongs to Jafar is quickly corrected when Ariel shows up.  Turns out, this was the place where she and Eric have settled.   Personally, I do question why they’re still living on Hangman’s Island, considering Eric has a kingdom waiting for him (unless that was also hit by the second Dark Curse).  I’m just saying, since Ariel stated in passing that Eric was off visiting some landlubber friends, the island is clearly inhabited by other people. Which means there’s most likely some sort of sea commerce going on, with trade ships visiting the island on a regular basis.  Couldn’t Eric and Ariel have hitched a ride with someone?  (I’m not going to comment on how Blackbeard claimed the island he left Eric on was deserted, because the man was a full-blown pirate.  It’s not that far-fetched to think he was lying about that detail.)

So Ariel’s back, and she is happy to see her visitors, even giving Killian a hug in greeting.  Which is a nice improvement.  I wouldn’t have been happy if she continued the slapping thing. Especially since I don’t think he deserved the slap he got in ‘Poor Unfortunate Soul.’  But Ariel apparently also knows Jasmine.  That story is explained in the Flashback portion of the episode.  Based on the dialogue, it apparently goes back to the opening sequence from the S6 premiere.  After leaving Aladdin with his hand tremors, Jafar returned to Agrabah to gloat about the state of Savior Aladdin.  He arrives just as the Sultan was trying to convince Jasmine to choose a husband to help secure the kingdom from the threat of Jafar.  When Jafar arrives, he tells Jasmine that if she doesn’t agree to marry him, he will destroy Agrabah.  Hoping to find Aladdin, Jasmine slips out of the palace.  While she’s searching the marketplace, she sees a thief running by, being chased by an angry merchant.  Thinking it was Aladdin, Jasmine follows, only to discover the thief was actually Ariel, who had somehow found a magic necklace that, as long as she wore it, she could have legs and her voice back.  (This was after EQ Regina stole Ariel’s voice as punishment for helping Snow escape.)

Ariel explains that she’s been looking for Eric ever since the events of that S3 flashback, and Jasmine, being an all-around nice person, agrees to help her.  They take a magic carpet ride over the city, and Ariel spots flags bearing Eric’s royal coat of arms.  But when Jasmine and Ariel enter into Eric’s tent, it’s eventually revealed that the man standing before them is actually Jafar in disguise.  Why he chose to disguise himself as Eric, I can’t say.  He once again gives Jasmine his ultimatum, stating she has until sundown to decide.  He also magically sends Ariel away, but not before she secretly steals a flask of some magic powder from him, which he’d used earlier to turn a man into a wooden staff.  Jasmine eventually decides to give in to Jafar’s demand, wanting to save her people.  In the process, she hands over the diamond ring from the royal crown jewels, which was meant to be given to her chosen husband.  But once he has possession of the ring, Jafar decides to basically pull an Alderaan on her.  He tells Jasmine that her kingdom had a magical protection around it, and he wouldn’t have been able to harm it like he’d been threatening to.  Until she handed over the diamond ring.  To punish Jasmine for falling for his trick, Jafar makes the entire city of Agrabah disappear.

Getting back to the main story, it’s revealed that Ariel somehow managed to obtain Jafar’s Genie Bottle. (Horry for the show acknowledging the events of the Wonderland spinoff, by the way.  They even make references to how Jafar was the illegitimate son of a sultan.)   But when they pull Jafar out of his bottle and he sees Jasmine and Aladdin in front of him, he reveals he managed to break the genie spell of servitude that Nyx placed on him.  Somehow.  Jafar then magically knocks out Ariel, Aladdin and Killian and proceeds to gloat to Jasmine, telling her that she failed her people horribly before revealing that Agrabah was actually sealed away within the Diamond Ring.  So when Jasmine wished that Genie Aladdin take her to Agrabah, it brought the ring to her.

After a few more moments of pointless dialogue, Jasmine manages to fake Jafar out by throwing the bottle of magic powder, the one Ariel stole from him in the flashback, at him.  At first, it looks like her effort was wasted, as the bottle landed harmlessly at his feet. But when Jafar starts to laugh at her, Jasmine reveals she snuck out a handful of the stuff and hurls in into his face.  As a result, Jafar is turned into a wooden staff.  The moment Jafar is defeated, Ariel, Aladdin and Killian wake up.  So, it’s now all happy smiles all around, with Jasmine’s self-confidence restored.  Aladdin suggests that Jasmine use her last genie wish to restore Agrabah, but Jasmine refuses, stating she plans to keep her promise and use her last wish to free Genie Aladdin.  This results in the two sharing TLK, which ends up restoring Agrabah to its original state.  It also apparently frees Aladdin from his genie servitude.

All in all, this whole storyline seemed rather dull and pointless to me.  What was the point of that little flashback story?  Yes, it explained what happened to Agrabah and all, but it just seemed like a drawn out way to do it.  Even Ariel’s presence in the flashback seemed to serve no purpose.  The only thing it did was explain why Ariel had that bottle of Jafar’s magic powder in her possession.  But they could have come up with another way for Jasmine to get it in time to use it on Jafar.  This was pretty much The Bear King all over again, but with the subplot of Killian wanting to get back to Emma thrown in to keep it relevant to the overall plot.  But maybe this whole thing was supposed to be a big metaphor for Killian, with him seeing Jasmine thinking she was no longer worthy to be called a hero because of a past mistake and then regaining her confidence.

While Jasmine and Aladdin’s contribution to the show seems to be over (even though they seemed to have abandoned the plan to explore the whole Savior mythos and what it means to be one), Killian still doesn’t have a way to get back to Emma.  But Ariel reveals she has mermaid magic on hand, pulling out a small seashell. Remembering that he has a shellphone necklace back home (and yay for the fact that the term shellphone is now 100% canon), Killian sees his chance to send a message back to Emma.

Speaking of Emma, she is not doing well, just as Killian feared.  Turns out Leroy saw Killian get onto the Nautilus, and because it sailed off almost immediately afterward, Emma now believes that Killian left on his own. Of course, I don’t blame her for believing that, considering what was going on at the time.  They had a fight, she told him to come back when he figured stuff out, and now he’s apparently did what she asked.  There was nothing really substantial to make her doubt he left on his own accord.  Especially since no one found his abandoned bag of clothes and whatnot.  (I’m guessing he left it on the ground when he went to tell Nemo he changed his mind.  I didn’t see anything to suggest he brought it onto the Nautilus, which makes me think he left it sitting outside.)

My problem with the Storybrooke scenes lies with everyone else.  The only one who isn’t getting a side-eye from me this episode is Charming.  While he is clearly reeling from learning that Killian was the one who killed Robert, the moment he hears Killian apparently skipped town, he pushes aside his feelings and focuses on Emma’s pain.  At the same time, he doesn’t push her into talking about it.  And when Emma decides to focus on doing some filing work at the Sheriff Station, he simply volunteers to help her file.  I really think that, if Emma spent the rest of the episode with Charming, she probably would have slowly started to realize that something wasn’t quite right. Because when she’s later seen moving all of Killian’s belongings to the shed out back, she’s able to see that he left some pretty important stuff behind.  Like his flask, spyglass and Liam’s ring.  Even if Killian had left on his own, the fact that he left these items behind indicated he planned to come back, and that he wasn’t gone for good. This was like someone leaving their credit cards and such behind.  Maybe, if Emma had been left to her own devices for this episode, she might have realized that.  But sadly, she wasn’t allowed to process things at her own pace.  Because Regina decided to butt in and announce that a new bar opened up and it would be the perfect time to throw a Girls Night Out for her, Emma and Snow.  And when Emma stated straight out that she wasn’t interested in going out drinking, Regina blatantly ignored her wishes and tricked her into coming out to the new bar in town by making up a story about a bar fight.  While I suppose it could be argued that Regina was trying to help Emma, she was going about it in the worst possible way.  That’s something I’ve noticed with this show. They don’t really acknowledge that talking it out isn’t the only way to grieve when something bad happens.  

Now, I hope you’ll forgive me, but I’m going to go off on a brief PSA.  If we believe the theory developed by Howard Gardner, a person’s intelligence isn’t limited to a single ability.  There are eight classifications of intelligence.  One person might have good logical-mathematical intelligence, another might be strong in verbal-linguistic intelligence.  A third person might find musical-rhythmic and harmonic intelligence to be their strong point.  Each of these people are intelligent in their own right, and one form if intelligence isn’t less valid than another.  There are also different ways to learn and study new information.  Some people learn by reading textbooks or using flashcards, another might learn best through hands-on experience, or through visual learning. Again, each method is relevant, and there is no right way.  It all comes down to what works for the individual.  The same is true when it comes to mourning and grieving.  But Emma’s so-called support system in this episode seems to feel that if Emma isn’t talking about her feelings, then it means she’s burying her head in the sand or something.  But that is just not true.  Everyone processes things differently.   Emma seems to be the type of person who needs to be proactive in her grief.  And that’s perfectly okay.  To her, keeping herself busy might be therapeutic to her. And just because she isn’t actively talking about her problem doesn’t mean she’s not dealing with it.  She might very well be processing everything in her head.  But because Regina and Snow tricked her into coming out to the bar and virtually nagged her into talking about her feelings, she wasn’t given the chance she needed to think things through and figure it out for herself.  As a result of being rushed through this, Emma came to the conclusion that Killian probably didn’t love her anymore, and that she should make an effort to move on.

So, while Snow and Regina probably had their hearts in the right place, they really should have respected Emma’s wishes to be left alone.  By disregarding her feelings, they only ended up making the situation worse for her. For those reasons, Regina had no right to refer to her and Snow as Emma’s real friends.

In fact, I sort of wonder if this Girls Night Out was organized with Emma’s feelings in mind at all.  As Emma pointed out in this episode, Regina was supposed to be looking into ways of breaking Snowing’s Sleeping Curse.  You know, taking some responsibility for her Evil Side’s actions?  How much you wanna bet that Regina only read one page in her spellbook and decided she was bored and deserved a break?  And when she heard about the Emma and Killian situation, she decided to use that as an excuse.

And Snow really was no better. I give her half a point because, hey, she’s actually physically in the same room as Emma.  That’s a marked improvement considering she’s been virtually ignoring Emma’s existence as of late.  But sadly, she doesn’t take advantage of that.  And instead of talking to Emma, or even spouting out one of those hope speeches she’s known for, she spends the evening focused on her own problems involving the ongoing Sleeping Curse that’s keeping her and Charming apart.  And then she proceeds to get drunk and plays darts with some Vikings. So, once again, while Drunk Snow is certainly entertaining to watch, the moment is marred by the fact that, even when she’s physically with Emma, she’s still not able to actually be there for her daughter.  Boy, I miss the Emma/Snow relationship of 2A.  Whatever happened to Snow’s vow to keep Emma from feeling like an orphan?  You know, the one she made at the end of ‘Lost Girl?’  I guess she forgot about that vow somewhere between Baby Neal and her decision to adopt Regina as her new daughter.

And then there’s Henry.  On the one hand, I get that he’s probably hurting over the fact that Killian seemed to have left town, too.  After all, he liked Killian, and the man was practically his stepfather.  So he’s probably grieving in his own way.  And it was such a typical teenager thing to do to not do what his mother asked him to do when she gave him the task of moving Killain’s things to the shed out back.   But at the same time, he couldn’t be bothered to say more than two words to his mother?   I mean, this is the kid who threw together a gift basket for Regina when her week-long relationship with Robin hit a roadblock.  But when his birth mother had a fight with a man she fully intended to marry, the same man she went down to hell for, he can’t put down the iPod for more than five seconds?

It’s just really frustrating to watch.  Again, I understand how Emma’s first instinct would be to believe Killian really left without a word.  But it’s the fact that everyone else is fully accepting that viewpoint too.  Only Emma has the abandonment issues.  You would think that someone would have helped her realize that Killian hadn’t left for good. But instead, everyone just seems to take up this ‘well, he’s gone for good’ attitude. So of course that’s not going to help Emma much.  And if Emma was starting to question the possibility that he wasn’t going to come back after seeing he left his personal belongings behind, Regina and Snow’s interference just disrupted that process, making Emma vulnerable again.  Which made it all too easy for her to believe that Killian no longer loved her when the barkeeper spouted off that story about snubbed lovers. Honestly, Regina and Snow should have just left Emma alone, or let Charming be the one to comfort her.  Because he was the one who had the right idea- just give Emma room to breathe and process things at her own pace.  Maybe if they had allowed her that, Emma might have realized something didn’t add up on her own.  But because they didn’t, Emma was virtually rushed into making a conclusion, and therefore made the wrong one.

Anyway, when Emma gets home that night, she sees that Henry hadn’t brought Killian’s sea chest out to the shed like she’d asked.  So she morosely decides to do so herself.  As she’s taking it out, however, she starts hearing Killian’s voice calling her name.  Investigating, she opens the sea chest and finds Killian’s shellphone necklace.

I have no complaints about the scene that follows.  Through the shellphone, Killian gives a heartfelt speech, explaining that he didn’t leave on his own and that he’s trying desperately to find a way back. And all of Emma’s misery completely vanishes as she listens to Killian’s message, getting the reassurance she needed that he hadn’t abandoned her after all.  It’s a huge testament to the chemistry between these actors.  They’re not even physically together, but they’re still able to show how deeply these two characters love each other.  And it’s so nice to hear Emma and Killian verbalize the fact that they love each other again.  I don’t think we got an actual ‘I love you’ all season.  And it’s nice to hear them say it again.

Unfortunately, Emma finds she cannot respond to Killian’s message and let him know she’s heard him.  Because something is blocking her voice from getting through.  It turns out the whole night at the bar was a big trap, and the bartender was Gideon in disguise.

Now, here’s Gideon’s master plan. He separated Emma and Killian because he wanted Emma to believe Killian deserted her.  And he told her that whole story about the snubbed lover because he wanted her to cry, so he could collect her tears.  And with the tears of a Savior, he’s able to prevent Killian from taking a portal back to Storybrooke.  He proceeds to tell Emma that if she agrees to help him kill the Black Fairy, then he’ll consider ending the enchantment that keeps Killian away. Well, that is one convoluted plan, isn’t it?  But of course, there is one gaping question.  Why didn’t he just simply ask for Emma’a help?  There was no need to take all these extra steps.  It’s like going through the alphabet backwards to reach the letter B. Dude, have you forgotten Emma is a hero and the Savior?  If you just told her the Black Fairy was enslaving kids and whatnot, she’d kinda be duty-bound to help you on principle. There was absolutely no need to essentially twist her arm like this to get her help.  What is it with villains and their inability to simply ask for help? Why do they insist on making things more difficult than they have to be?  But I suppose it’s not that surprising, considering who Gideon’s father is.  This is one thorny apple that clearly didn’t fall far from the tree.  And it’s one more reason why I get discouraged when Henry starts to idolize his sperm donor.  Kid, this is not the bloodline you should be celebrating.

(Click here to read more Episode Analyses)

[flslp87]

(2) in 5x21, so it's not so far away in the past. And as for all the times you mentioned she lost Robin, she did not go back to the EQ, no, but that's because the heroes made it a point to coddle her to avoid it (Henry was worried that Marian being back would make Regina evil again and THAT is when Emma promised to get her a Happy Ending). It's the only way to understand why the "heroes take the hard path" brigade jumped on board on her plan to rewrite her story in 4B (and on the split too).

This was going around in another post today and I don’t feel that Regina has been coddled by the Charmings.  I feel that she has been comforted - there’s a difference.  While I can see where you, and many others, would use that term for their behavior because to coddle someone is to enable them....  if you can step back and look at the show and how it presents its villains, it makes sense. In 4x13 Emma pushed Killian to tell her about Ursula and he pushed back - so it’s not typical for the show to ‘make’ anyone talk.  That has to be up to the person.  And while Killian stayed on his path because of Emma and Regina stays on hers because of Henry - he can’t make her do anything.  She has to choose to do it.  

Plus the show doesn’t bring up past deeds unless they use a parallel to them in the present. They do it w/ Killian, Regina and with Rumple.  So expecting them to pull out all her past deeds isn’t realistic.  And I’ve seen things about her apologizing.  Again the show is more about what you do in the present, and as for her taking responsibility, she has.  In S2 when Pan was going to destroy the town, she took responsibility.  She let Henry go in 3x11 - and everything since then has been on Snow and on Zelena as they are the ones who cast the curse.  

That being said I believe this Robin is here to guide her to look inside.  In 12, she made the comment about doing something he would regret - but there was an aha moment on her face.  The whole heart talk - again an aha moment.  That’s his job.  I’m ‘guessing’ based on the Ladyhawke story that Regina is going to have a huge part in breaking the curse on Snowing and then is when some atonement will be done.  

As for the heroes jumping on board - well think about this.   S1 to 4x01 was Operation Cobra - bring back the HE (but not only bring them back, bring them back the right way.) in 4x03 Operation Mongoose took over.  Now it’s the cobra’s enemy, but also the opposite of Operation Cobra (and strangely enough S4 and S5 they tried to bring back the HE using short cuts) Now in 6x02 Henry renames it and it’s Operation Cobra Part 2 and listen here  So not only have they added a sequel on to S1-3 but are back to doing things the ‘right’ way.   This is one reason why I believe that the finale is going to be similar to S3 finale - and the twist is going to be Zelena’s doing as she is totally Bif. 

Thanks for stopping by again. Always a pleasure

[themattress]

Ranking OUAT’s Villain Redemptions

10. Mr. Gold / Rumpelstiltskin - What redemption!?  Rumple was an out-and-out villain in S1, and he didn’t truly change at all in S2 no matter how often he publicly restrained himself to appease Belle.  S3 was the only time he made an honest effort at redemption, but it was fraught with failures, temptation, doubt and relapses into asshole behavior.  The only thing that made it succeed was that it occurred in a very specific set of ideal circumstances...and that Rumple died at the end of it all.  After being resurrected and losing his son, Rumple quickly regressed into the villainy he’s comfortable with, becoming the Big Bad of S4.  In S5, we had that brief “hero Gold” arc that was not only morally insulting and nonsensical, but also pointless since he ends up choosing to become the Dark One again by the end of it...the Darkest Dark One, in fact, who is thoroughly unpleasant up until the very end of S6, where - after being faced with the consequences of his own evil actions, consequences that include the potential destruction of the entire multiverse - he does the right thing once, which leads to Belle taking him back, allowing him to help raise their son, and him getting accepted at the big family dinner by all of his victims. What the actual fuck!?  That’s not a redemption - Rumple hasn’t repented of his evil ways, he hasn’t given up his dark powers, he hasn’t sacrificed one damn thing, and he only did something good after his own evildoing backfired on him. He is literally responsible for the crisis he helped resolve.  And yet he gets rewarded with his own “happy beginning” with his abused wife and helpless infant son?  Fuck off, A&E.

9. Regina Mills / The Evil Queen - I technically consider Regina to have the worst redemption on the show since I refuse to accept Rumple as even having a redemption. Regina’s first attempt at redemption happened quickly into S2, some may argue too quickly. While it seemed to be going well at first, it soon became apparent that she was only doing it in order to regain custody over Henry rather than out of any true remorse or desire to change. The moment something goes wrong for her, she turns evil again, and ends up being even more heinous a bitch than she was before.  If the show had been operating under any logic, Regina should have been considered irredeemable at this point.  But instead, she is given another chance, and for most of S3 she does a surprisingly good job...until the last five episodes, where her redemption is suddenly fasts-forwarded so that she receives all the rewards she has not yet done anything to deserve: a new boyfriend, easy reconciliation with Snow and with Henry, a True Love’s Kiss with Henry that breaks the Dark Curse, light magic out of nowhere that defeats her previously more powerful sister, and the complete trust and forgiveness of the entire town despite her past victimization of them. But then one thing goes wrong for her, and while she resists falling back into full-on villainy, she still returns to being a whiny, spiteful, self-pitying woman-child who is always looking for the easy way to get what she wants and occasionally does do evil things to achieve this, yet is paradoxically treated by the rest of the cast as a messianic saint, someone who has come so far and worked so hard and deserves her happy ending, with the narrative frequently giving her all of the big hero moments at Emma’s expense.  In fact, much of her development comes at Emma’s expense, since A&E clearly see her as the true star of the show.  And that show just isn’t any fun to me.

8. Cora Mills / The Queen of Hearts - This one is just bizarre. Cora was a villain of the highest order all the way up to her death, where she had a dying epiphany as to where she went wrong in regards to her daughter.  But for some reason, her death is treated as such a tragedy and as such a source of guilt for Snow (not how she killed Cora, no, just that she killed Cora at all) that one would think Cora redeemed herself before her death, which just isn’t so.  Things got iffier when Cora showed up in the Underworld during 5B, and after doing one good deed in reconciling with her daughters and getting them to reconcile with each other, she is allowed to go to Heaven.  While I personally find this acceptable since Cora actually did repent of her villainy and fully acknowledge that she would deserve to go to Hell if that was her fate, I can see why many would be bugged about one of the most evil villains in the show’s history being shown going to Heaven while other characters higher above her on the moral scale - Milah, Gaston, Auntie Em, and even Prince James in the same episode - are condemned to the River of Lost Souls.  When put into that context, it seems less like a good lesson on divine mercy and more a case of creator favoritism toward the character. Cora probably should have just remained in the Underworld to continue her redemption.

7. Maleficent & Ursula - Two thirds of the Queens of Darkness (the other one, Cruella, was an irredeemable sociopath in life and in death), both of them have things that work about their redemption and things that don’t work.  For Ursula, her redemption comes when, after Hook brings her father Poseidon to town who restores her singing voice, she realizes that her true happy ending wasn’t recovering that but reconciling with her father, who is now repentant of his past patriarchal abuse of her.  This is all well and good, but Ursula really didn’t do all that much evil for the redemption to be powerful.  She always came off as lost and confused and hanging out with the wrong crowd, not truly villainous.  And then there’s Maleficent, who has the opposite problem.  Her happy ending is also reuniting with a family member, her long-lost daughter Lily.  It’s sweet and touching, but it also glosses over all of Maleficent’s established villainy.  Maleficent cursed people, burned people alive, destroyed a village, was deemed as having the greatest potential for darkness by a Chernabog, but none of it matters in the end. Even her sworn vendetta against Snow and Charming (whom were made to look like villains and Maleficent their victim) is abruptly dropped and she’s suddenly getting along with them. It’s pretty much Regina’s bullshit redemption but on a mercifully smaller scale.  Since Maleficent did not actually repent of her evildoing, the show should have treated her character accordingly - as still a villain and a potential threat, but also a loving mother.  At the end, she’d be the gray-shading which is complimented by Ursula’s white and Cruella’s black. 

6. Tinkerbell - Aside from the villain-to-hero journeys of Regina, Rumple and Hook in 3A, we also got Tinkerbell, who was an ex-fairy turned trusted partner of Peter Pan.  The Nevengers persuade her to help them, but only if there’s something in it for her (namely, leaving Neverland and being able to confront the Blue Fairy about getting her wings back).  In the end, inspired by Regina and Hook’s progress, Tink learns to believe in herself and earns her fairy status back.  It’s a nice little arc, but it’s missing one crucial detail - the nature of her villainy.  We never see her and Pan interact, we never learn exactly what kind of work she did for him to make him trust her so much.  We see that she’s a scavenger who is prone to violence, but that’s it.  Wendy, Pan’s longtime prisoner, is friends with her, so she couldn’t have been all that bad.  This lack of clarity undermines what is otherwise a good redemption.

5. Zelena Mills / The Wicked Witch -  For the most part, Zelena’s redemption in S5 and S6 really works.  She was never as bad as Regina, so already her changing is more believable. When she realizes that her wicked lifestyle is actually harmful to her baby daughter, she allows Regina and Robin to take her in order to keep her safe.  She doesn’t join Hades despite him professing his love for her until she thinks she can use her own love for him to redeem him.  And when it becomes apparent that it won’t and never will, Zelena kills him in order to protect her sister and everyone else in Storybrooke.  When Regina is an ungrateful bitch and blames her for Robin’s death, Zelena is ostracized from everyone else.  But even when the Evil Queen comes along and tempts her to return to her wicked roots, Zelena keeps firmly out of the conflict, preferring to remain a neutral party for her baby’s sake until her hand is forced and she joins the side of good despite it not really getting her anything and no hero save for Belle caring much for her.  This commitment to doing the right thing comes to a head when she actually sacrifices her magic, the thing she’d defined herself by for so long, to help stop the Black Fairy, a sacrifice Regina should have made long ago but never did. After this, the other heroes fully embrace her as one of their own.  It’s a great redemption, but there is one snag - Robin, both the man and the baby named after him.  The baby Zelena conceived through deceiving Robin into thinking she was Marian.  By - let’s not mince words here - raping him.  It’s not quite as bad as Regina with Graham, especially since Zelena didn't kill Robin and Robin was willing to give her a second chance of his own volition prior to his death, but it’s still rape all the same, and to have the rape victim die while the rapist keeps the baby is extremely squicky, no matter how surprisingly good a mother Zelena may be. This one aspect casts a shadow over Zelena’s redemption and it never should have happened. 

4. King Arthur - Arthur was a villain in 5A, a corrupt monarch obsessed with fulfilling his destiny and ruling over Camelot at all costs.  While despicable, Arthur was also somewhat sympathetic too, as he became more evidently pathetic as the arc went on and Merlin really did screw him up by filling his head with visions of a future he felt the need to achieve.  In the climax of 5B, Arthur escapes prison only to be promptly murdered by Hades.  Down in the Underworld, Hook confronts Arthur with the truth: he was a terrible king and will probably go to Hell if he doesn’t do something to atone.  Note that at first this is the reason why Arthur helps Hook in his quest for the book: he just wants to avoid the consequences of his villainy.  But as the episode goes on, a clear change in Arthur can be seen as he sees the depth of Hook’s feelings for Emma, his bravery and his nobility...in this lowly pirate, Arthur sees the man he had wanted to be and failed to become, making him feel true remorse.  Arthur then becomes invested in the quest to the point where he is willing to sacrifice himself to the River of Lost Souls so that Hook can get to the book.  And at the end, when a doorway to Heaven is open and Arthur has the chance to go through it, which was the whole reason he joined Hook on this quest at the start, he declines and opts to stay in the Underworld, to rule it as a benevolent king and make it a better place, which a short on the S5 DVD shows that he did indeed do.  In just one episode, Arthur had one of the best redemptions on the show, from a selfish cad to a noble hero.  While like Zelena, he also has a rape-like situation with Guinevere that remains untouched upon (he used magic dust on her to keep her from leaving him and turn her into his compliant wife), there was no confirmation of actual rape and even some proof against it (he was too consumed by his obsession with Exaclibur to do anything romantic for Guinevere, let alone sexual), so it’s not quite as harmful to his redemption.

3. Ingrid / The Snow Queen - Ingrid is an even better example of a great redemption being accomplished in just one episode.  Despite being terrifying, prejudiced and insane, Ingrid was also one of the most tragic and sympathetic villains to ever be on the show, with an absolutely heartbreaking backstory and her sole motivation being to have a family who loves her.  She cast the Shattered Sight spell in order to make everyone in Storybrooke kill each other save for Emma and Elsa, who would become her new sisters, but when Anna shows her a letter from her sister Gerta expressing remorse for imprisoning her and confirming that she still loved her, Ingrid realizes the error of her ways.  In one of the best redemptive villain lines in the series, she says “I am a monster. Not because of my powers, but because of what I let them turn me into!”  She then reverses the spell at the cost of her own life, telling Emma, Elsa and Anna that they are all amazing people and that she is proud of them, then saying that her happy ending will be to join her sisters in death.  The whole scene is acted and scored beautifully, and I can’t help but cry anytime I see it.  By acknowledging what she did wrong and accepting responsibility for it, Ingrid is one of the show’s best redeemed villains.

2. Anastasia / The Red Queen - One of the two main villains of Once Upon in Wonderland, Anastasia quickly began to look more appealing, sympathetic and redeemable in contrast to the monstrous villainy of Jafar.  Her main crimes, apart from aiding him, were giving up love for power and being a neglectful ruler to her people...and she was helping Jafar in the hopes of getting to change the past so that she never did any of that.  When this failed and it became clear that she wasn’t going to be able to take the easy way out, Anastasia gave up on her aspirations and finally took full responsibility for being a terrible queen, vowing to make it up to the people of Wonderland by fighting to save them from Jafar, a fight that she stuck through even when it got her tortured by the Jabberwocky and then murdered by Jafar. In the end, her redemption earned her life, being revived by the water from the Well of Wonders, and won her back the love of Will Scarlet.  Years later, she is still ruling Wonderland but now as the White Queen, who actively works to bring love, hope and joy to her people. Anastasia’s redemption is everything that Regina’s is not, with her being fully self-aware of her villainy, truly remorseful of her actions once she starts her redemption, and with purely altruistic motives - doing the right thing just because it’s the right thing and she wants to help make amends for her past mistakes.  Add in Emma Rigby’s performance and it’s nigh-perfect.

1. Killian Jones / Captain Hook - Hook’s redemption starts at the very end of S2, inspired by his regrets for failing Baelfire long ago and not wanting to do the same with his son Henry, putting aside his desire for revenge in favor of doing the right thing.  He had everything to gain by not making this decision, but he does so anyway.  Throughout 3A, he does an admirable job helping the heroes through Neverland and returning to being the honorable man he was long ago, although his motives aren’t entirely pure as he hopes to woo Emma. When he is separated from Emma and gives up hope of reuniting with her, he tries to go back to his villainous pirate ways, but is overcome with remorse after doing so, realizing that his time with Emma changed him to the point where it’s not just for her that he wants to reform for, but for himself too.  When he learns that Emma’s family is in danger and that he must find her and get her to go help them, he trades the Jolly Roger - and his home, crew, livelihood and reputation along with it - in order to do so.  He continues to do good not to “get into Emma’s pants” but to ensure her happiness regardless of whether she ever returns his feelings, and to be the hero he now sincerely wants to be. His redemption comes to a climax in S5, where he becomes evil again after Emma forces the Darkness upon him to save his life, and is once again put into a position where he’d gain everything he wants by following through on his villainy, but remembering that this is not the man he wants to be, he once again does the heroic thing instead, at the cost of his own life.  In the Underworld, Hook learns the value of self-forgiveness and accepts the possibility of a second chance at life, but when it looks like this is impossible, he promises Emma to move on to Heaven when she asks him too.  Unable to do so until his unfinished business of helping Emma defeat Hades is resolved, Hook has a heroic quest alongside Arthur where he proves just how far he’s come, and when he goes into the light to fulfill his pledge to Emma at the end of it, he is instead resurrected by Zeus, deeming him a True Hero worthy of being reunited with his True Love.  

Hook’s redemption is superb not just because of the events that transpire and his growth throughout it, but because of his overall attitude toward the whole thing.  He knows full well that he was a villain, is remorseful for every crime he committed and takes full responsibility for them, and whenever the chance to make things right with someone he wronged comes up, he takes it.  It takes a long time for him to fully get past his self-loathing for his past sins, as he doesn’t feel entitled to happiness just because he’s changed and is doing heroic deeds now, as opposed to Regina, Rumple and initially Zelena who all believed themselves entitled to a happy ending, their crimes and victims be damned.  And lastly, also unlike them, every privilege that Hook has by the end of the series he has earned through his own hard work at redeeming himself.  He has no leftovers from anything he gained as a result of his villainy, even the rings on his fingers have changed from ones that belonged to dead victims to new ones he presumably fairly bought.  His new wife and family, his friendships with others, his house, his ship, his job as deputy sheriff, his very life...all thanks to his heroism and the good karma it rewarded him with.  All of this is why Hook’s redemption is truly the series’ finest.

[gch1995]

@leni-ba @sieben9 The point of Rumple taking back the Dark One’s curse was so that Hook could look like a “hero” for everyone to be able to go to save when he did what most normal people would have just chosen not to seriously set out to try to do in the first place by choosing not to kill everyone else, and throwing himself into the UW “selflessly” to clean up the whole mess that he created in the first place, anyway. Basically, Rumple’s character assassination was a plot device to create a stupid storyline about saving Hook in the Underworld that literally most of the fandom didn’t want, and so the best parts for many of us were Rumple’s whole attitude of “IDGAF about Hook, Emma! I just want to head on back home so I can get back to bed with Belle, so go ahead and try to tell her for all I care before I get back, but I’m outta here” attitude about the ridiculous quest of saving Hook with Emma after she blackmailed him was like the best . Still, up until that moment when Belle had that complete 180 of going to Zelena for the sleeping curse that made no sense, 5B actually was not that bad of an arc for Rumple or Belle. I couldn’t even bother watching 6A because just reading its spoilers about all of the wildly OOC, illogical, hateful, and mutually toxic Rumbelle Drama™️ was making me feel angry with A&E and these writers.

A big issue is that the people who produce fictional media in Dramady, Drama, Fantasy, Romantic, Post-Apocalyptic, and/or modern day mini supernatural soap opera TV shows like Glee, Shameless (the U.S. Version), Once Upon A Time, Charmed, Game Of Thrones (the show), The Walking Dead, Supernatural, and The 100 is that they they are ultimately often written and/or run by a bunch of middle-aged/elderly people and network execs who think those of us in their main YA demographic of consumers in the 14-25 year age group will be easy to get away with emotionally manipulating with sensationalist and oftentimes melodramatically toxic, cheesy, hypocritical, character destroying, and/or OOC PLOT-driven Drama™️, outdated and/or offensive messages about society, fanservice, product placement, and/or pretty faces of actors.

It’s really easy to see why Regina, Zelena, and Hook ended up a ridiculously easy, contrived, and unfair chance at a “redemption” arcs compared to Rumple on the show, and it’s very easy to see why Nealfire was killed off instead of Hook. Was it because Regina, Zelena, or Hook were anymore deserving of redemption then Rumple? Was it because they actually did anything to prove that they were better people than Rumple over the series? No, not at all, but Lana Parilla, Rebecca Mader, and Colin O’Donoghue sure did have very conventionally attractive faces that appealed to many of those in their young GA of the network who are way more obsessed with “Oh, look how pretty” when they were watching this show than “short,” “old,” and “ugly” Robert Carlyle (😒😒😒). Personally, I thought he was adorable when I first started watching in a distinguished, unconventional, and mysteriously sexy sort of older gentleman way with the shaggy long hair, expensive suits, Scottish accent, expressive brown eyes, and then when I saw him acting as spinner!Rum in “Desperate Souls” I wanted to hug him.

I started rooting for his character so hard even more after I found out about Bae and Belle because it was so beautifully deep, well-acted, and poignant. Rumple’s character, backstory, and arcs with Bae and Belle was the one villain redemption arc on the show that I fell in love with from S1-S3, and the whole reason why I got so emotionally invested in this otherwise cheap show because for the most part, he was the only one who’s characterization just organically led to me loving him without feeling like A&E and these writers were trying to force me to feel anything they personally wanted me to feel for him by emotionally manipulating me to feel how they wanted me to feel about him because he was physically attractive, or because they had a ridiculously hypocritical and unfair creator’s pet crush on him and were trying to convert their audience to feel the same way about them because they said so, not because they had actually given me much evidence on screen for why I was supposed to really want redemption for Regina, Zelena, or Hook beyond “Look, Rumple fucked them over, and ‘made them’ evil for their freely chosen, magic curse free sociopathic choices simply by emotionally manipulating them, or made the man who his first wife cheated on him with angry. Not saying that Rumple was right there, but that didn’t really make me feel all that weepy for Hook over losing a woman who he likely hadn’t known all that long who she was cheating on Rumple with, or really seem to make any sense for why he would spend three centuries obsessing over tracking down revenge against Rumple for that crime, and then stalking and attempting to murder Belle in retaliation.

I could understand if the writers had actually showed us more of Hook and Milah’s relationship on screen and shown us why he fell in love with her, but he didn’t. The only thing that sort of makes sense, and that is actually kind of canon now in a bizarrely roundabout way is that maybe Hook always secretly had a big crush on Rumple all along. Maybe tracking him down to get revenge against him for killing a woman he seemingly barely knew who he claimed to love, and was him just repressing his desire to make out with Rumple. LOL!

Anyway, these types of shows are set up to ultimately crash and burn if they last longer than one to three ish seasons whenever they are built on the premise of the main characters wanting to make the world a better place, wanting to fulfill a personal dream, a weirdo wanting to find that special someone who’s an outsider that gets them like few others seem to do in the world, wanting to redeem themselves, wanting to make it up their loved ones for making a huge mistake, and/or trying to outdo the last generation from which they were spawned because usually the writers end up getting to the end of these initially hopeful and progressive character development arcs a lot sooner than they realize. Then, they don’t know what other sort of storylines to come up with for their characters after they’ve seemingly reached the progressive goals they initially started out with in mind in the first one to three seasons of these series.

Then, there’s the fact that this entire premises of these young adult Fantasy, Drama Dramedy, Sci-fi, and/or post-apocalyptic shows about hope, outdoing the generation that came before you, making the world a better place, gaining redemption, and/or finding true love and family, are often doomed to fail after 1-3 seasons because the writers get the characters to the ending that they always intended for them to have all along for years ahead of time in their original script before their show got pitched by a network, and then often run into their fourth or fifth season without anymore original story to tell planned ahead of time, or anywhere else to take their characters once they’ve reached their goals or peak development. Paid creators of fictional book, movie, and TV series often are going to sell out storytelling/character integrity in favor of cheap, melodramatic, OOC, mindless, toxic, inconsistent, redundant, often hopeless, hypocritical, emotionally manipulative, and character destroying soapy PLOT-driven Drama™️, fanservice, and product placement. Bonus, when you write TV shows about “heroes” and “villains” where the writers protagonists and/or redemptive villains have all seemingly reached their ultimate goals by the end of the first three seasons of making the “world a better place,” they’ll all devolve into increasingly awful people, but only one character will be the scapegoat “bad guy” for the other characters to shit all over in the narrative for making many of the same bad choices they do themselves now because the writers don’t know how else to create external conflict for those on their “good guy” team either after having them develop to their original goals that they reached in the first seasons either. But their PLOT demands that all of these now incredibly morally fucked up toxic people have some sort of conflict, enemy, and/or threat to fight against to emotionally manipulate the audience into taking a side between characters who they’ve all turned into toxic and unsympathetic messes for PLOT too, anyway. Basically, it becomes the writers trying to force the audience to take sides between characters in a conflict that no one would actually want to take sides between in real life if they met them without the show’s blatantly emotionally manipulative goggles of “good versus evil” on since they all are just objectively corrupt toxic messes who’s “hero” and “villain” labels or motives wouldn’t do anything to keep them all from being charged with one or more serious criminal offenses from S4-S7 in real life, anyway.

There’s nothing wrong with shows centered around a premise of self-improvement, hope, redemption, making the world a better place, or fulfilling a personal goal or dream, but they tend to turn burn out of story faster than most creators realize they finish getting through them, and then they don’t know what else to do.

I’m all for having problematic faves. I’m all for villain redemption arcs. I’m often used to making subjective choices based off of personal experiences, but when the creators/writers try to blatantly emotionally manipulate/brainwash me to feel and think whatever they want me to feel and think for these characters by turning them all into incredibly OOC, melodramatic, and PLOT-driven mutually toxic messes of characters who suck as people for Drama™️, and they still expect me to somehow take “hero” and “villain” sides between them, then the show and its characters in their canon as they are being written no longer has any meaningful value or message for society that sets a good example. It’s all just abusing power you were given that you don’t deserve by a television network to make money by emotionally manipulating/brainwashing your audience to force them to feel whatever you want them to feel, and I absolutely hate it when TV show-runners do this because they think that those of us in their young adult majority audience are naive enough to just blindly react however they want us to react to the garbage they serve us on screen without asking any questions or thinking about why we should just love this character who sucks as a person, and/or why we should suddenly loathe this once sympathetically portrayed character because their PLOT demands it on a show full of main characters who are all incredibly fucked up toxic messes themselves with little to no self-awareness.

I remember watching Glee back in middle school and high school from S1-S3, and now looking back at just a few episodes from the first season, I started realizing just how badly written, inconsistent, incredibly toxic, and fucked up many of those characters were as people and how incredibly offensive many of its messages were. Did I really used to have a crush on Will Schuester who got glorified as a “hero” in the narrative for violently exploding up at his wife Terri over her lying about her pregnancy, even while he was sort of having a borderline emotional affair with Emma? Did I really used to see Finn as that much of a “good guy” when he was homophobic, hypocritical, selfish, overly possessive of Rachel with Jesse when they weren’t even dating at the time, whiny, homophobic, and his hair trigger temper led to a few notable instances of violent rage? Did Rachel Berry really deserve all the success she got when her ego made her viciously cutthroat competitive, bitchy, uncooperative, and self-righteous to a fault in many instances, or was Lea Michele just Ryan Murphy’s main star of the show who’s character got everything she ever wanted because she was a creator’s pet with writers looking out for her? Was Blaine ever really a good boyfriend for Kurt or always just an emotionally manipulative/abusive asshole with superficial charm?

I tell you, so many things ruin your childhood when you realize how much your favorite TV shows were all just hot garbage written by people to emotionally manipulate our gullible young hearts and minds. It’s even worse when you start watching these shows as an adult who’s aware of all the emotionally manipulative tactics writers and show-runners use to get you on the sides of the characters they want you to side with as their PLOT demands because you see potential for them to actually tell an organic beautiful story by writing these characters in the way that feels most natural and real.

On Escalation and Hindsight

I’m sorry, this got long.  If I could write a TL;DR I wouldn’t be in this mess, so I guess just skip to the last paragraph for a summary of the ponderings herein.

So…We started out OUAT with the premise that Rumple needed the Dark Curse cast because it was the only way, short of a magic bean that was supposed to be extinct, to travel to the Land Without Magic.  As the series wore on, new ways to travel between realms seemed to pop up left & right, including magic beans to the point that there was briefly an entire field of them growing.  A lot of these methods seemed like they wouldn’t have worked for mechanical reasons, like Jefferson’s hat, but later things like Merlin & the Apprentice’s doors offered no such excuse, until we ended up with Henry summoning his family into the middle of New York because he inherited Grandma Snow’s gift for hope speeches.

If you love Rumple for similar reasons to mine, one of the big reasons you loved him was for how sympathetic his character was for seeming to have no other option to rectify a terrible parenting mistake he made in a moment of panic.  If you disliked Rumple, maybe it gave you a nasty satisfaction as the series wore on to see how many other options he could have had if he was either a nicer or more hopeful person, but I felt as though it diminished some of the awe around his character for the sake of a moral about hope.  What was once a truly staggering amount of patience, discipline, and determination looked more and more foolish and unjustified.

Now season 7 is giving us an Evil Queen 2.0 in the shape of Lady Tremaine, who is being hyped as smarter and more insidious than Regina.  One of the things that captivated me about Once in the first season was how untouchable the Evil Queen was, both in the Enchanted Forest and Storybrooke.  Almost nothing Emma did seemed to get her anywhere in Storybrooke, even Rumple was not immune to her cruel games, and you couldn’t deny, in the end, that she had made Snow’s life miserable before the curse was even cast, then truly succeeded in getting her revenge for 28 years, a fairly staggering amount of time.  Even if there were moments that made her seem less magically competent compared to Rumple, she was still a formidable foe albeit with a slightly differently flavor.  I think differentiating their strengths and weaknesses made for a stronger story, as you never want characters to be interchangeable, otherwise one of them can probably go.

By contrast, and this may become a moot point once we actually meet Lady Tremaine and see how she operates, Lady Tremaine’s strategy of geographically splitting up the couple she’s trying to keep apart while they have no memory of each other really emphasizes a glaring hole in Regina’s plan, making her seem like less of a threat than originally presented.  I’ve inferred from following some Evil Regals that this could actually be considered as just the latest installment in the long list of self-sabotages Regina has committed because, deep down, she never really wanted to kill Snow White; that spark of the girl she once was couldn’t be snuffed out completely.  As someone who does not identify with Regina to the same extent, I can see this explanation and appreciate it, but to me it also diminishes the seriousness of her as a threat, even at the height of her power, and, by extension, the length of the personal journey she has made back from that dark place.  So much of her gravitas as a villain was how impenetrable her control over everyone seemed to be and how completely heartless she was in exerting it, but being shown that there was a more effective option she either didn’t consider or chose not to pursue either makes her less impressive as a strategist or less heartless than we were supposed to believe at the time.

At the same time, I recognize that telling a new chapter of a story with equal or lesser stakes just isn’t exciting, so there has to be a tangible feeling of escalation - or does there?  I was never more intrigued than when Emma broke the curse in the first season, completely eliminating the motivation driving most of the characters while simultaneously introducing a whole new world of problems for everyone to work through.  I had been bingeing on Netflix before season 3 premiered, without the influence of promotional materials, so it felt like the possibilities were endless even without any foreknowledge of a new Big Bad (or perhaps because of that lack).

How was it for folks who were following the show in real time?  And what do you (any of you, not just the early adopters) think about Once’s storytelling?  Do you have to diminish the impressiveness of a villainous character over time to give them a believable redemptive journey, or is it enough for them to have emotional traumas to overcome without also repainting their actions as unnecessary or less than competent?  Do you see what Once has done with Rumple & Regina differently?  (In case it’s not clear, I’d love to hear if you have a different perspective.)  Do you think ongoing stories can only escalate to remain interesting?  Is there a way to escalate threats without taking away from previous threats?

[violetfaust]

Is Rumple the only villain who doesn’t attack his enemies by hurting the people they love?

So I saw something yesterday that I found super disturbing...people discussing how mean Rumple was to the Evil Queen after she accelerated Belle’s pregnancy (!!) and noting that the Queen only did it because he was cruel to her and used her when she was vulnerable. (Which...there’s so much to unpack there as far as the Rumple Rules(tm) go--including that Rumple was himself incredibly vulnerable and hurting in 6A, and that he was not the one who pursued the Queen. I honestly don’t have the strength to untangle it all out at the moment.) And the discussion continued by wondering when/if Rumple would realize that he shouldn’t be so righteous about “defending” Belle when it was all of his evil actions that caused people to hurt Belle in the first place. If he didn’t provoke the Evil Queen (and Zelena!!!!!!) Belle wouldn’t be attacked. (Thankfully this discussion stopped short of the CY fandom’s explicit opinion that Belle DESERVED to be tortured because she associated with Rumple.) Would Rumple continue to use people if he thought their vengeance would be visited on him rather than the people he loved? (Which, AGAIN...holy shit. And it’s not as if villains--cough ZELENA cough--haven’t hurt and threatened his loved ones WHEN they had the ability to hurt Rumple himself.)

So basically I don’t even know where to start with this whole idea that of course it’s entirely natural for villains to attack their enemy’s loved ones instead of their enemy him/herself HOWEVER it set me off on the tangent of...Does Rumple do that?

Because my impression has been that Rumple takes out his beef on the person he’s mad at, not on innocent bystanders.

The single most common trait of OUAT villains is that they hurt innocents in order to get what they want from their adversary. Killy tried to murder Belle four times, etc. Dark Swan tried  to murder Belle and stole Violet’s heart to manipulate Henry. I could fill a page with just the assaults on Belle (from Killy, Emma, Regina, the QoD, Zelena, Hades, Hyde, Pan, and probably more), but she’s not the only victim here. Cora murdered Daniel to control Regina. Ingrid wanted to off the whole town to have Emma and Elsa to herself. Zelena killed Neal, threatened Belle, raped Robin and held him and Roland hostage. Regina cursed a whole realm in order to get back at Snow. ETC.

But Rumple doesn’t operate that way.

Am I right about this? I’m not sure, especially since I’ve only watched about a half dozen eps in all of SS5 and 6. But I think so...?

One of the examples in the discussion referenced above of people attacking Belle because “Rumple started it” was Regina taking Belle’s heart in S4. This was in response to Rumple threatening the safety of Robin and Roland.

Okay. But that wasn’t Rumple--that was Zelena, who had Rumple under her thumb by the deal they made when she forced him in order to get what was essentially heart medicine. (Poor Zelena, if only Rumple wouldn’t provoke her to such actions.) Regina didn’t know that, but the audience does. In fact, we saw Rumple obliquely warn Robin to get himself and Roland away from Marilena, and after Rumple had freed Belle’s heart from Maleficent, he DIDN’T warn Zee that SQ was coming for her (did her?). Rumple also threatened Roland to get Regina’s heart from Robin in S3, but that was explicitly because Zelena ordered him with the dagger. He was tortured about doing it.

When Rumple killed Milah, he murdered HER--the person who abused him and abandoned Bae. Now, he specifically said he was leaving Killy alive to suffer but what about the rest of that crew, Milah’s friends and, according to Rumple himself, family? Why not off all of them as a bonus?

Rumple hates Zelena and tried to manipulate the Queen into killing her. But he didn’t go after Zelena’s child (though she murdered his, laughed while doing it, and still taunts him about it). At the beginning of S2, Rumple didn’t know that Henry was his grandson, so one might think that the way to destroy Regina would be to hurt him, but he doesn’t. Once Killy takes up with Emma, does Rumple ever threaten/hurt her just to get to Killy? (Granted in the present day Rumple has the leash that Belle doesn’t want him to hurt people--though why that should apply when they’re broken up I don’t know.)

Rumple did kidnap Zelena to use as a bargaining chip vs. Hades--but he didn’t actually hurt her, even though he had Pan right there as a willing weapon. (Having Pan kill Zelena and then get wrecked by Hades would have solved several of Rumple’s problems with a single stroke.)

There was some sort of nonsense with Rumple poisoning (?) the Count of Monte Cristo’s girlfriend to control the Count, but I didn’t watch it and honestly that’s the one major time I can think of. 

But am I forgetting things?

[hellowherearemypeople]

So Gia, if you don't mind, since I miss your metas and such, I've got to ask what you make of all of this sudden final season/season 7 talk, especially in regards to Captain Swan of course, Emma, Jen, and Colin, but also the overall story. And, go!

Gosh, the fandoms been such a downer lately (myself included) after the dismal first half of S6 so I haven’t felt like contributing much. The treatment of Emma’s character and the way the writers are having Regina’s curse looked back upon…well I’m Not going to get into that now but let’s just say that the show needs more than 10-11 episodes to right the wrongs the writers have done this past year and end the show the way the fans and the story deserves.

Personally I think we never should have had a S6. I think they should have wrapped up after 5 seasons instead of dragging it out indefinitely (and rehashing storylines and repeating old lessons for the characters to do so). Sadly now they are in a position where they may have to wrap things up and they might have to rush to get to where they need to be since they’ve dragged several of these characters and relationships quite far off from where they need to be by series end to have it feel real and earned.

So with JMO on this (at least how I interpret her recent comments). The show needs at least one season to finish up - even a half season. And I’d be on. Board with that. I’ve invested too much of my time and heart into this show to see it through. But like Jen I’m not interested in seeing it dragged out for several more years. For her it’s about her life and career - for me I think the main story lines have already been resolved and all they could do to keep things going is either continue to repeat story lines and deny the characters their happy endings (which will mean the show gets worse and worse) or “reinvent” the show by launching off into a different direction with new or fewer cast members. I’m not interested in either scenario.

I think Bobby is done with the show and I can’t blame him. I hope he leaves even if there is another season because I can’t bear to watch A&E continue to ruin the amazing character they created and which Bobby brought to life. I can’t forgive them for what they’ve done to his story and I don’t believe they can’t deliver a satisfactory ending to his tale that is worthy of the character, his role in the show, or Bobby’s talent.

If Jen and Colin stick around I’d probably continue to watch for more CS - but I honestly don’t expect them to go past a S7. So ether way I anticipate my time with this how will be finished after S7 even if it weren’t cancelled.

The writing on this show has gotten worse and worse each season. I’m honestly only sticking around to see the happy endings for my faves play out. I’m curious as to what A&E have in mind for how the story ends. I’m also prepared to be really disappointed in what they deliver. If the show isn’t getting renewed and they have to wrap things up in the next few weeks it’s going to be a train wreck - they clearly weren’t prepared for that. It would make me incredibly sad to see the show I’ve loved so much go out in such a way. So I suppose I’m hoping for a final season in which things can be wrapped up properly.

For CS I’m not concerned with “milestones” - i just want good writing and character/relationship development that feels organic instead of like scattered plot points being checked off a list. Personally I think the fandom may be expecting things the writers never intend to give us - I think they may have conceived of Emma’s only TLK ever being with her son and not a romantic one. I don’t think we’ll ever see CS babies (expect maybe in a montage in the series finale) and a wedding…I think it’s a possibility but can they squeeze in a romantic adventure and proposal and a wedding in the next few episodes? Maybe but I think it would feel rushed.

For Rumple - I could have been happy with a TL ending for him with Belle a season or two ago. But now I’d prefer a villains ending becuase they’ve destroyed the RB story for me - Rumple in bed (literally) with the EQ was too much for me. And I think after his actions the past season - Belle deserves better. But the writers are likely to have them bond over their son and she’ll forgive him like he always does. He may even sacrifice himself to save them. But he already did that back in S3 so honestly I expected more from the writers. So if he went out as the big bad at least that’d be unexpected?

Regina - I don’t even know what to say anymore. I mean I have no clue what the writers are thinking. They’ve taken her redemption and muddled it with her being unheroic and hypocritical when it comes to her sister (whose crimes are the same as her own). She’s not getting a romantic happy ending - so what do the writers have in store? Having her be at peace? Well she did that at the end of S4 - so again, I expected more. They could have her go evil again but WHY? And if so then why have her victims thank her for her crimes against her? To me it seems like they’ve whitewashed her crimes and if you planned to have her turn villain it doesn’t make any sense to sweep her pst evil deeds under the rug like that. So I really don’t know what to expect. I’m So bored with this EQ story line and I am NOT a fan of this version of the EQ so I just Want it to be over.

Snowing? I don’t even have anything to say. I love them and they had a good episode earlier this season but their story line at present - literally and figuratively- is SNOOZEVILLE. Year of Snowing? Not even close. Just let them have their happy ending already. They’ve earned it!

I think the writers don’t know how to end their story because they’ve veered too far off from their original course. So they want to just launch into something else but the network is saying “No, you need to finish what you’ve started - and finish it well!”. I only hope they can surprise me wth what they come up with for the “happy endings” for the main cast because from what I can see these characters storylines were basically resolved by the end of S3 and since then we’ve just been treading water only to get us back to almost the same place they were at then (minus OQ).

Sorry that was a lot of rambling there but I think I’ve answered what you asked?

[gch1995]

Rumple was always my favorite character on OUAT. I finally quit watching after S5 because I couldn’t stand seeing Rumple, Belle, Rumbelle, or Emma constantly getting thrown under the bus for H00k/CS’s benefit anymore.

I always pretend that the real show ended with 3x11 because that’s the last time characterization, development, or rules on this show made any kind of consistent, hopeful, dynamic, complex, realistic, organic, or satisfying well-written sense for all of my favorite characters and the storyline that didn’t make me want to bang my head against a desk.

I ship “Skin Deep” to the end of S3 canon Rumbelle, and then pretty much just canon-divergent/AU fanon Rumbelle after that point because the canon narrative after Bae’s death as written by A&E and their writers from 3B-S7 pretty much had systematically destroyed every element that originally made Rumple, Belle, Rumbelle, Emma, Snow, and even Henry such amazing, admirable, consistent, credible, emotionally complex, human, healthy, realistic, or relatable well-written characters/ships in the narrative by butchering their original characterizations to prop up H00k, CS, Regina, and Zelena’s undeserved benefit.

Like, even this Rumple who they’re saying got a “happy ending” in canon just because he got to be with Belle again in heaven...Did he really, though? Wasn’t Bae his primary happy ending that A&E and these writers cruelly ripped away from him with his redemption in 3x11 to make him the on-and-off again villain? Why wasn’t he a part of this quest for mortality? Was it really worth all that character assassinating back-and-forth team hero to team villain bs from 3B-S7 when he already got the same ending in 3x11 with a far more consistently, realistically, healthily, organic, hopeful, and satisfyingly well-written, and well-earned journey along the way in the narrative that was always on his side?

Would the original Rumple from S1-S3A with the realistic and complex characterization, who was written as the father first and the love interest second, be okay with himself dying for his wife when one of his children or other relatives were alive? No. Would in-character Belle? No.

I love Rumbelle, I’m glad they got something of a happy ever after, but they should have been more than just each other’s love interests on the show as characters at this point. Gideon should have had more significance in their storylines, and he should have been included in S7 right there. To be honest, I’m going to keep pretending OUAT ended with 3x11 because it’s the last time the show made any sense.

Also, don’t get me started on how they had him say that “taking on the curse was an act of a coward.” No, it wasn’t, not originally when he first took it on to save his son from the ogre wars. It was brave. If he’s talking about the more simplistic second time where he took it back on screen just because, then I guess that could be considered “cowardice.”

It’s just annoying because 3B-S7 Rumple is a convoluted, simplistic, inconsistent, poorly rewritten, recycled, retconned, and redone version of his far superior consistent, original, organic, layered, human, emotionally complex, dynamic, and realistic characterization and redemption arc from S1-S3A.

They wanted us to constantly pretend that the first two-and-half seasons of Rumple’s characterization, development, and redemption arc didn’t exist after so they could constantly resell it as “Finally you were selfless,” or “For the first time you were truly selfless.” Except it really wasn’t because we saw him doing the same redemptive things over and over again, and for anyone who’s a fan of his character it gets old after awhile because we wanted for A&E and these writers to just stick to one redemption arc, not undo it, and either leave his character alone by writing him out of the show after he got it, or taking the time to show us what happened after Rumple gets redeemed with him getting to settle down with his loved ones without constantly having to prove he’s a better man by losing them to give him another way to redeem himself.

In 3A, it felt like a beautiful, bittersweet, and organic Shakespearean ending to a fantastic character on the show. In S7, not only had they ruined both his and Belle’s characters so throughly in canon from 3B-S6 to prop up Hook/CS, past the point of no return basically, but it didn’t even feel necessary after his arc in 6B. Killing off Belle didn’t really “teach” him anything, anyway because he was already ready to give up his curse in the first ten years of their happy marriage together at the beginning of 7x04, long before she died, so they should have just let him have a TLK with her, and have them run off into the sunset with Gideon. It just felt so contrived, cheesy, OOC, ableist, misogynistic, and unhealthily romanticized with the way they ended up doing it, instead thought

Like, it’s not romantic to commit suicide to be with someone who you lost that you loved when there’s no need to, and you have other family members and friends who love you to live for. This show was so tone-deaf, ableist, and gross, tbh.

I  need clarity...

I have recently just finished watching the last season of OUAT. Why was rumple only ever invested in Belle? Where was his son thru the whole season, why did it seem like Regina was the only person upset by his death and why did his friendships lack a feeling of real deepness (Hook, Alice, Regina) .Rumple has always been my favourite character, but there are to many things that I still try to understand about him.