#so please don't try to engage me in discussion or argument about this thanks <3< /div> Explore tagged Tumblr posts

[diamondcitydarlin]

i would so so love it if we could not do the usual moral / 'healthy relationship' expectation projections on n@ndermo , that thing we do where we have to pick apart every aspect of every era of their dynamic to make sure that they absolutely do not violate any of the 'healthy relationship' laws tumblr set down long ago that i'm -still- trying to figure out. cause I'm already seeing posts like, 'i dONt tHINk guillermo and nandor are EMoTIonALLY MatURe ENougH-' please. for the love of everything please can we not do that cyclical rhetoric this time. of course neither of them are 'emotionally mature', which is entirely the point.

i'm not trying to be mean or downplay anyone's concerns etc etc etc but...yall. this is a universe where people casually get killed and eaten in such a way that is not meant to reflect on the characters' moral codes or the way we perceive them as sympathetic or not. Shadows is not working within the boundaries of 'trying to set an example that all of society should follow' lol it has literally never been that kind of show. it's a show for adults (though that's not to say younger people can't watch it ofc, but it's helpful to understand who this show is written for) who understand and accept that these characters are not role models of how real people in the real world should behave, its a fun comedy about a supernatural world where just about anything goes. the entire point is that the main characters are all a little bit toxic and 'morally bankrupt' to a degree, at least in comparison to the ethical standards that tumblr holds its fictional characters against normally. again tho, none of that is meant to lessen our sympathy for and investment in the characters and their relationships with each other, or lessen our desire to see them succeed and be happy. that has always been the deal.

are we meant to criticize and/or care less about Sean's friendship with the vampires because they were going to (albeit mercifully) rip his head off? Because they over hypnotized him? Because, as vampires, they have an inherent power imbalance with Sean, as a human? no, of course not, because that's not what the writing of this show is leading the viewer to do.

and yes, admittedly this is a little frustrating to see for a pairing that is breaking boundaries and expectations of what we normally see with queer mainstream representation; it feels as tho we're holding a pairing of two non-white queer men to expectations that, frankly, I hadn't seen anyone in the show held to within fandom before. why now does it have to matter that everything is textbook ethical? while i don't think it's the intent to be regressive, that's still kind of what's happening here imo. gay poc men are allowed to be fucked up in shows too sometimes.

the show is not meant to be rubric for real life behavior. while we are meant to love and root for the characters and their dynamics with each other, it is understood that Shadows is not romanticizing anything into a unironic example of 'healthy irl person' / 'healthy irl relationship'. that romanticization of unhealthy behaviors in fictional narratives is why we have these discussions in the first place and shadows isn't guilty of that for the reasons I listed above.

i mean whatever obviously people can have whatever discussions they want lol, I just had to get this off my chest as I'm already seeing the posts here and there about ' why n@ndermo is problematique ' and lest i throw myself into the abyss i just had to whine for a second on an untagged post.

[gralunaisland]

An Anti's Request for Discussion with a Pro-Gr///via Fan

Honestly, I don’t think I’ll ever understand gr///via fans at this rate, so I’d like to do something proactively.

My friends keep telling me not to tag "gruvia" because that’s Tumblr etiquette, and I completely understand their sound advice.

However, I’m thinking, will it be okay to tag it to ask for a discussion? I’d like to hear the opposite side.

So here’s my official request for pro-gr///vian fans: would one of you be up for a discussion? A discussion about why you think your ship is a good one? I’d love to have a peaceful, respectful debate, devoid of ad hominem and offensive language.

I have hope that there’s a gr///via fan who’s out there ready for a harmless conversation on this topic. We’re big kids. We can discuss ships without taking personal offense, right?

If you want to discuss with me, please comment below your reasons for liking gr///via or juvia or whatever!

Please do not however comment on my other posts for discussion. This post is where I have delegated my discussion. I appreciate people making comments with questions or critiques about particular parts of other posts on those same posts, but people have been just being rude there while picking fights with me, and this blog is still an Anti-space. Thank you for complying!

And N.B., I am not putting any Anti tags because Pros may have those blocked and this post exists for the purpose of having a discussion with the Pros. I am not not-tagging it because I want to sneak attack the Pros. I am also not not-tagging it because I have turned over to the Pro side in case that wasn’t clear haha. I simply want to hear an argument that isn’t heated and pointed from their side to see if I can understand them better.

Edit: I’d originally made an edit where I added that I would stay an Anti, and thanks to a Pro commenting, (quite rudely I must admit), I’ve decided to get rid of it as it isn’t conducive to discussion. I do not think my mind will be changed, but that doesn’t mean I cannot be open to what they have to say. That was my sentiment from the get-go, but my wording needed work. Thank you, Pro, for the criticism!

Edit 2: Also, I didn’t think I’d have to clarify this, but I would like an actual discussion, not someone sending me the link to their post and telling me to figure it out myself. The point I’m aiming for is a peaceful debate, a live conversation where we can answer questions as they arise. I want to be able to actually connect with a Pro on this matter, to see if there’s any common ground, and even if there isn’t, to give both sides a chance to defend their position in a way that’s digestible, at least legibly, to the other. Is that really too much to ask?

Edit 3: Just a PSA I suppose, this isn’t a trap somehow😅. If you want to discuss, discuss. If you don’t, block me and skedaddle on your way. But discussion is a two-way street, so I don't get why a commenter is calling me a bad guy for responding to someone who was kind enough to try to engage in a conversation with me. Both sides get to talk. I thought that was clear when I said debate…

Anyway, have a wonderful day! Thank you for your time as usual!

[lazarus-harp]

underappreciated friendships rant (1/?) - joey graceffa / safiya nygaard

I've seen a lot of people claim Safiya simply sided with Joey out of fear, or because she believed there was no other choice. And it's always bothered me— since I don't see that as the case. There's a lot of bonding between these two that occurs during their seven shared episodes and I wanted to dive into it! Try and give everyone a new dynamic to look at, or to consider these two through a new lense.

( tw ; super long post, so press the read more button to see it all please! )

As early as episode one, there's clear love shown from Safiya's part. While everyone chose to go on the mission because Joey asked for their presence, most of them either did it mostly for fun ( Colleen ) or for the adventure to follow ( Mat ). The Investigative reporter certainly had her own reasoning as well, but the moment Joey arrives, she is quick to say,

She words it as a group thing, which I'm sure is true, yet it speaks volumes that Safiya is the one to say it. Throughout the series she rarely extends her worry to most, you barely see her react to most of the early deaths ; and the only time her worry shines through specifically for others is when it comes to most of the final six. But, again, I'm pointing out this specific moment because it's still a big deal ( for her ) and she's been worried about him from the start, regardless of others' criticism. As much of a follower as the reporter can be, she doesn't let her opinions change, even if her actions stem from the influence of others.

I think most people get their 'Safiya was scared of Joey' thoughts from her one line in episode two : "Is he on our side? Or is he just trying to kill us?" Which I can totally see why this would influence that view on their relationship! It's undeniable that Saf was suspicious of Joey, and she always has been. She's known pretty early on there was something more there that he wasn't telling the group. Not hesitating to throw him under the bus in episode three, when she notices the SAE symbol on the box and immediately announces the connection to his bag. But I feel as though suspicion is natural here, as is fear. Anyone would be on edge about the person who invited them at first in a situation like this, even if they loved that person dearly She also doesn't flat out say "he's trying to kill us" but just realizes that's an option. We know that the Investigative reporter is a no nonsense kinda gal. She's about solving things, and surviving, and that's two things Joey seems to hinder her of having in the beginning. Making her on the fence about him. Which still doesn't mean she doesn't care about him. Just that there's a planted seed of doubt forming.

In later episodes when three of the loudest members ( Mat, Colleen, and Manny ) were sussing Joey ; Saf keeps quiet. And in episode five she makes her stand, despite it being quite an unpopular one.

She doesn't believe Joey should die, or that he's evil. And even goes as far as to encourage Joey to come clean to the group because it would help his cause. If Safiya truly was scared of the savant or disliked him, I'm sure she would've kept quiet and voted him. Let the group have their way ( besides Rosanna ) and keep Mat and Manny around. But she doesn't. I also think it says a lot that Joey even listens to her suggestion! She coaxes it out of him and I doubt many others would've had the same effect. Joey trusts her. She says it'll go a long way and he believes that, even if it was hard for him to own up to. Some canon examples of this can be shown here ( so you know im not talking out of my ass ) :

Safiya's confessional after hearing Mat and Manny discuss how suspicious/potentially evil Joey is ( this also shows she doesn't just keep him around for information, but that she genuinely thinks he can still be a good person )

Here she is, being the only person to get Joey to confess, and Joey listening to her

When it comes time to vote, Saf expresses she doesn't think she should vote for Joey despite the pressure from her friends

Though to most it seems like she's only keeping him around for more information, I think this still further proves she doesn't think he's evil ; or that she's scared of him. Again, if she was, I don't think she'd hesitate here. Information or not.

Either way, Joey survives episode five and Mat is lost, leading these two into the events of episode six ; Twin Dolls. Where I think even more of their bond shines through! Right away, Saf makes sure to stick close to a certain group. While Colleen flirts with Mortimer and Ro spends a couple seconds sulking alone, she's sitting comfortably at the table beside Manny : facing Nikita and Joey. She follows along with him the whole episode as well, ending up in his group later when everyone splits up. It's here that Joey proves how much he appreciates Ro and her for believing him, making his love for them obvious. Anytime something risky pops up, the savant is on the front lines to take the fall for it. I'm sure Safiya didn't expect such loyalty after she mildly defended him, but either way, it's natural she's thankful for it nonetheless. If Saf had any doubts that Joey was the person everyone claimed he was, they have long since faded at this point when he gets his hands dirty in the name of appreciation for her and her choice.

He says, word to word from 18:30-18:40 , "You guys trusted me, and you didn't vote for me in that competition, so I'll take this for the team." And takes the red pill that could've hurt him, or made him sick— he didn't even know. Safiya knew this because none of them knew, yet he took that risk for them. If this didn't strengthen her fragile trust in him, I don't know what would. Not to mention, he then proceeds to stick his hand down a bucket of tar to retrieve the last Lazarus coin. Something Saf seems greatly amazed about, considering how fixated she's been on opening the box. Which I'm sure only puts him higher up in her good graces!

( I won't be using her betraying Colleen as evidence for siding with Joey, because she only killed her since she knew most of the group had picked her already, so I'm skipping to ep7 )

Right away, the burden of who to revive was a shared burden on Saf and Joey's shoulders. Yet they both were on the same wavelength when it came to who to bring back ; and are now waiting for that person in the beginning of episode seven : Funhouse. Everyone is on edge and the two haven't confessed who they picked yet— Also, quick side note, I think the fact they both just looked at each other, and shared this immediate knowing look, says a lot about how close they are. They didn't even discuss it. Just choose. It means more than you'd think, because Saf could've easily believed Joey wouldn't want Mat back given their falling out. But she didn't even question that when she saw his face. Reading people is hard and I think this is a neat, overlooked moment ( though, to be fair, I feel like most of the group could read each other at this point, seeing as they've become so close )

The moment Matthew returns, and everyone is getting their cute reunion moment with him, Safiya is overjoyed. She's so happy, in fact, that she gushes about how they "did it" and hugs Joey. You don't see Saf make the move to hug people often, in fact I think the only times she does so is in ep4 ( I think Mat's the one who goes in to hug her in ep7 ). She doesn't even try to hug Mat here! Just Joey. At this point they are clearly close friends :

Sadly, there's less Joey/Saf content in this episode that I feel like are important enough to highlight. However, when Ro says she can't put Joey in danger when they're forced to vote a friend, Safiya offers no argument when she could've. She quickly agrees and they settle on who they vote, saving Joey and Mat. When it comes to her death, the savant expresses great remorse over her passing even if he plays middle man and refuses to take sides. He frets over her corpse and says, "It not fair, what happened to Safiya." And Joey, who's seen so much death it's probably a regular occurrence, truly seems saddened with this passing. Generally, I've seen him portrayed as dismissive over the s3 deaths, but that isn't always true. He expresses remorse for Roi, Manny, Mat, Ro, and especially for Safiya. And I think, instead of taking petty sides, the main reason Joey just pushes the group forward is because that's what she would've done had she been there.

Of course this isn't every single Joey and Saf moment ever! There have been multiple tiny engagements between them in groups, a couple of casual touches, and their arm wrestling scene in ep5 which was beyond adorable! However, I just highlighted some key aspects that I believe showed Safiya's view on Joey and Joey's admiration for her. This is a really long essay, and if you've read through it all, good for you! I hope this changed your view on their dynamic, or at least gave you a better appreciation for it! I love these two a lot and you'll see their close relationship in my writing more, so I wanted to also explain where that's coming from.

Thanks for reading <3 And feel free to leave other underrated friendships for me to dissect in my inbox or in these notes!

[unknowncrashingthroughthewindow]

[1] Ok so I've just finished the Ray Route for the first time w/o spoilers successfully! Thanks for answering all my nonsensical asks all throughout these 11 days. I'd thought I'd collect a few of my thoughts and put them here: (1) I have to say Saeran is now my favourite character. He's. Just a cool dude I guess (2) Cleansed Saeran is basically Edge Boi™ who dressed up for a job interview at Hot Topic. He tries to scare people but he fails poor boy (3) Ray is,,, kinda clingy I don't know man he

congratulations on reaching the finish line!! glad to talk to you over those chaotic 11 days! since you sent me these asks in parts, i’ll answer them accordingly under the cut!

1. saeran’s a GREAT dude he’s been through so much but hes so good and so strong and hes VERY GREAT n i have a very high fever so all my brain cells are bringing to the table is inane shouting and “ohoogughhug saeran good”

2. cleansed saeran as a phrase still dealt me 50 poison damage because i cannot Stand people yelling at me Ever because i am just a tiny creacher…..but its good that it didnt affect you too much!!

3. now ray’s character is really a Hit Or Miss and the way you view him is completely valid but its important to understand exactly where he’s coming from, especially in his own route. i think recognising why certain habits of his are unhealthy to himself and those around him, as well as recognising why he has them, is a crucial part of ray’s route (although you probably know that already!) so all im saying is its very good to call him out for his unhealthy habits! but please try to be nice to him ^^;;

4. its probably not that funny but the entire time v’s telling rika how much he still loves her he looks like he’s passing the fattest kidney stone so judging by that im pretty sure they’re gonna burn like saeran’s house :/ 

5. rika is designed to be a very morally ambiguous and morally provocative character, and the way someone perceives her is almost always entirely dependent on their own experiences, which is why i believe that you’re in no way wrong whether you like her or don’t like her

personally i have a lot of Thoughts on rika that i might discuss in detail sometime later, but the general gist of it is Good Intentions, Bad Actions. everything she’s done has been under a twisted conception of love, and the moment she started involving other people she became exempt from being easily excused for her actions, but i think her desire to be a good person means that she has the potential to find a kind of love that’s not destructive to herself or others, and i’d like to hold her responsible for self recovery more than self retribution (of course then my argument brings up the whole “then no criminal would actually be a criminal” issue and yeah this whole debacle is messy and deliberately situational but since i’m not the one in charge of Rika’s Divine Ruling, i dont reckon there’s any point to thinking about it too much…… im just gonna go with my gut sjhgckf)

6. if they kill seven im gonna. well im. im just gonna cry BUT considering they brought ray back from the dead in the most arbitrary way in v’s ae im gonna assume seven’s chances are pretty fucking good (to be a bit more exact, you still get a few of seven’s thoughts on day 10 and one response where youre like “he might be playing around with the kidnapper’s wits!” gets a heart from him so if he’s alive enough to give you kudos for a comment he can’t even see then im gonna hope he’s alive enough to survive the ae)

7. v’s ae took a HECK of a lotta time but im assuming that’s because they had to lay out a HECK of a lotta foundations for this new style of ae, so ray’s shouldn’t take as long! maybe sometime near the middle/end of this year? its good to try be patient but if youre frustrated you cannn engage in the fandom annnndddd…….talk to……meeeee JHVBDGCVKFGJHJ im ALWAYS up for ray route talk >:3

8. (you didnt have point 8 but you do now) i really hope you 1) enjoyed the route!! and 2) get some Good Sleep im sending you sleepy vibbbbeess uwu

[confidence-i-like-it]

Despite not supporting boycott movement(which consists about two users only), I have to ask- do you realize that by "they have to give us what we want" most fans all this time mean "equality for lgbt characters and characters of colors"? I don't want to be rude, it's just very upsetting how you purposely simplified such an important issue to vilify certain group of people (based on act of the few)

Thank you for your respectful message, I mean that. Since you expressed your concerns so calmly, I took the time to elaborate my stance a bit more, since I also come from a place of being upset. It’s a deeply rooted sentiment, so I hope you can be bothered to sit through all of it.

Oversimplification is a problem when it comes to engaging in online fandom. Within the group that probably feel targeted after reading my previous post, let’s say there are three subgroups (since we’re all simplifying anyway, please forgive me). 1. There are people who genuinely argue in favour of more equality for lgbt  and poc characters with legitimate arguments I agree with 100%. 2. There’s also a group of people who hijack these legitimate issues in order to bash other fans, because how on earth can someone argue against that without coming off as a racist homophobe? 3. Then there’s a third group that leech of these first two groups that don’t bother beyond: ‘No one cares about het drama, gives us Malec’, ‘Not Malec, not interested’, ‘No one wants Clace’.

The first group I support. I agree with their arguments, and they bring up legitimate issues that ought to be addressed. However, acknowledging issues in representation of a lgbt/poc ship does not mean one can’t support a straight white ship. I can be upset about the ‘strategic fade to black’ that was Malec’s first time, while also being excited for a Clace centric episode. Call me greedy, I just want it all.

It’s the second two groups I have an issue with. Group 2 bases their arguments on semi-truths, or truths that are not relevant for the argument they are making. This gives the discussion a broken foundation to begin with, and thus is impossible to engage, because how does one come up with a decent counter argument to a broken argument? To me, this is very upsetting. Genuine issues become trivialised this way, and custom fitted into an argument. High expectations not being met is not queerbaiting. A Malec scene being cut is not an act of homophobia. Scenes get cut, c’est la vie. I think they came from a good place when they released that bts picture, and never anticipated this backlash. Making an episode is more complicated than assigning scenes to couples, as if they have a quota for romantic fluff. Also, whereas it may be a handful of people being serious about a boycott, the ‘they should listen to what the fandom wants’ sentiment is a lot more popular, the boycott is just taking it a step further. 

The third group makes itself very guilty of oversimplification as well. It’s one thing to say ‘I don’t care about het drama, I only watch for Malec, and I do not want Clace’. Arguing that no one cares, and everyone is only in it for Malec is just not true. (This kind of non-arguing of course also exist in other fandoms. I’ve seen plenty of Clace fans claiming no one cares for Climon, only to criticise Climon fans in the very same post.) However, people in this group also frequently feels justified in arguing on behalf of the entire lgbt community. And that is just wrong no matter how you twist or turn it. A recent example: I criticised the outrage when that sneak peak came out where Jace gets the promotion over Alec. I was subsequently slammed for not understanding what ‘we, gays and bisexuals’ go through. This person must have looked at my most recent reblogs, which were Clace related, and come to a conclusion about me and my sexuality according to those random gifsets. How bizarre is that, when you think of it? I’m sure I alsohave come to the wrong conclusion as well about people on here, based on their Tumblrs, but I wouldn’t attack an individual based on that. Either way, in this situation I hinted that I, in fact, am not straight, but apparently was too subtle, and thus got asked directly whether I am straight. As if only my sexuality would validate my arguments that did not consider sexuality in the slightest, it’s just that that sneak peek happened to involve a gay character. 

Pan and bisexual fans, including yours truly, risk being excluded from the lgbt portion of any TV fandom by showing support for a straight ship, yet some people exclusively shipping lgbt ships feel justified in arguing on behalf of all of us. You can’t do that, period. Surely it comes as no surprise that someone who is attracted to people from both sexes in real life, would be interested in both straight and same sex ships. Supporting a straight ship doesn’t make me any less bi, just like being attracted to a man would suddenly make me straight. 

So, my post was not just about some randoms trying to organise a boycott. The boycott is the tip of the iceberg of a much larger issue that exists in modern fandoms. The Shadowhunter fandoms seemed to avoid many of these issues for a long time, hence my disappointment to see Shadowhunter related tags filled with such negativity and toxicity. It’s such a shame that such individuals can throw such a shadow over something many people enjoy, and it’s even more of a shame that these people shout the loudest, and thus are the voices heard.

Thank you for your message, thank you for reading mine. Feel free to message me again if you wish to comment.