#slavery in asoiaf

[atopvisenyashill]

The sound of Mirri Maz Duur's voice was like a funeral dirge.

[danyseastar]

daenerys: has finally decided that negotiating with the masters is a lost cause and plans to bring fire and blood to them (because slavery has to end somehow) in her journey to dismantle a thousands upon thousands year old violent regime; which would result in freeing millions of innocent men, women, and children from the terrifying brutality they’ve been subjected to their entire lives.

antis: she’s choosing violence, this is foreshadowing for her burning king’s landing! or the water gardens! MAD KWEEN! she’s a targaryen! the targaryens are evil incest lizard people with superiority complexes! and daenerys is one 😱😱 (i’m so intelligent!) bad colonizer! dragons are nukes! what about the innocent slavers? did you know every time a targaryen is born THE GODS FLIP A COIN—

[throwawayasoiafaccount]

btw what theon went through is what thousands upon thousands upon thousands of slaves still go through in essos. so, do you still feel pity for the slavers that were crucified? do you still pity the slavers killed when daenerys freed the unsullied?

i ask these questions, and yet i know that there are still many people who believe that the violence against the slavers wasn’t justified, or believe that it was simply “too much” or “not fair.” truly… what an insane hill to die on.

maybe these people should spare more empathy for the formerly enslaved instead of wasting time making up excuses (that are not supported by the text) for why the slave masters' deaths were somehow not justified 🫶

[whitedragonwolf4961]

The signs were there…

The signs were there all along… that the fucking hacks were ruining this beautiful, amazing, complex character long before the shit season. I know those dumb as shit incompetent hacks and some of the cast of GoT (do they actually believe that shit or were they toeing the line?) in their condescending manner told us that the “signs” were there all along about Dany “going mad”. They are right but not for the reasons they think they are. The signs were there… that D&D were ruining Dany’s character long before that putrid shitshow that was Season 8. When you reread the books and remember or rewatch the show, you can see. As early as S1, they were giving many of Dany’s strong or intelligent or kind and merciful moments to the males around her. It was her who took Viserys’s horse away from him to show how she has grown stronger and is no longer as afraid of him as she once was. In the show they gave it to Rhakaro. In S2 they had Jorah tell Dany she must be her people’s strength and then Dany told Jorah “as you are mine”. Contrast that where in the books Dany told herself she must be her people’s strength, including Jorah. And they gave Dany’s meeting with Quaithe to freaking Jorah! There is the fact that the hacks couldn’t have women talking for two minutes without insulting each other (directly or subtly). And then they gave her intelligent strategies to her male advisers in S3 and 4. And of course had her rely on the incompetence dumbass Show Tyrion for strategy completely in S7, ignoring the advice of her allies (who were all females). And to make her look worse, they had Barristan tell her “it’s better to answer injustice with mercy” when she had those masters crucified for what they did to the children (and of course add “nice and innocent slavers”). No surprise to find out that they omitted that Dany specifically ordered them to give up their leaders aka the ones who obviously ordered it, in the books. And how Dany is told by her advisers to be more violent and ruthless, instead of them “tempering her worst impulses” (I fucking hate that sexist fucking line). Dany is the one who wants to be as merciful and nonviolent as possible. A little off topic, I think Dany needs to become more ruthless. I think GRRM was trying to show that while it shows Dany’s good heart that she tried to be compromising, you cannot compromise with slavers. If she wants to utterly destroy slavery she will need to be more ruthless and that is not a bad thing at all.

Anyway, besides giving most of Dany’s best moments to the males around her, the fucking hacks were changing things when they still followed the books (for a given definition of “follow”) as well as adding ridiculous crap. It’s most blatant in her S2 storyline. The Thirteen immediately invite Dany into Qarth because they sought her out. But the hacks had Dany be condescendingly talked to by the show only Spice King and refused entry. So they could have her shout “We will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground”. I know a lot of dumb idiots will use that line as “proof” but it was a stupid addition by the two hacks so they could make Dany look bad. And then they had Dany’s Dothraki people slaughtered. They had Irri murdered. They took away Dany’s female companionship (until Missandei). And speaking of Irri, who killed her? Doreah! Yeah! They had Doreah out of literally nowhere with zero explanation or reason betray Dany and murder Irri (like I said, Dumb&Dumber can’t stand female friendships. They think women are only good for insulting and killing each other). Looks like the later seasons weren’t the start of them inventing stupid plot points out of nowhere. And I guess they wanted to make Dany look cruel for locking Doreah and Xaro in the vault. Know what she does to them in the books? Nothing. Well not exactly nothing. Doreah dies in the Red Waste and Dany holds her and gives her water from her own waterskin and refuses to move until Doreah has passed. And Xaro is still alive in the books. Because Xaro and Pree never stole her dragons in the books (another stupid show invention). And then later, as I previously mentioned, they invented “innocent slave masters” that Dany crucified like Hizdahr’s daddy. Nothing like that is brought up in the books. Oh, and they decided to kill off Ser Barristan in S5! Even though Barristan is alive and well and gladly serving Dany in the books and knowing she’s nothing like her father. Which the actor pointed out. And it only made those scumbags want to do it even more. And then after his (very stupid) death, Dany burns a slave master. And that stupid awful behind the scenes book after the shit season, Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon has that moron Cogman bring that up about how Dany didn’t care if he was innocent or not (they really had a thing about “innocent slave masters”). None of that crap ever happens in the books.

They also changed small but important parts. Never let Dany have a crown like I mentioned. They also had Dany sit on top of the stairs in Mereen, when she insists on sitting at the bottom on a simple bench because she wants to be on an equal level with her people. Heck an illustrator had to be corrected by GRRM when she was showing that (does anyone have a picture or article about that?). They also never really showed her bond with her other dragons. In the books she loves and pays attention to all of them, in particular Viserion who always wants to be petted by her. In the show, she only really pays attention to Drogon mostly. Rhaegal and Viserion were reduced to “the two smaller different colored dragons” (to be stupidly killed off later on in stupid asinine ways). And Dany’s relationship with Daario is changed. Daario is made to be the one in love and Dany “feels nothing” when she ends their relationship. In the books Dany has a huge crush on Daario but Daario only really wants her for her crown and title, not the girl she is. And Dany knows this. And Jorah is changed into this super nice guy who is always giving her wisdom instead of this creep who is trying to isolate her from other men so she’ll only rely on him.

And when they stopped following the books? Well they really weren’t bothering to hide it much anymore. In S6, they have that idiot Show Tyrion talk about how Dany was “wrong” for not building a new system (and Tyrion is portrayed as smart for not wanting to change the way of the world even though that’s what Dany wants to do). So Tyrion wants slavery to continue for seven years (which the idiot says is a “short time”). And most disgustingly, they had him tell Missandei and Gray Worm, who were slaves their whole lives, that he now “knows the horrors of it”. A white rich guy telling two people of color that he knows about slavery… (am I looking at it too much?) Anyway, when that predictably backfires (why the hell were they always having people talk about how smart Tyrion is and Dany needs to listen to him when all he’s ever done is fail?) and Dany returns to Mereen, they have Dany talk about “returning cities to the dirt” so Tyrion can give her a more merciful strategy. And then in S7… have her rely only on Tyrion and his stupid plans. And if she dared to want to just end it quickly, they told her she would be just like her father. They even had that dumb weak idiot Show Jon say that. Book Jon would bitch slap that idiot. Book Jon wants to bring destruction to House Lannister.

Speaking of which… that scene where she meets Jon. It was funny how Dany had all her many titles spoken by Missandei when all Davos said about Jon is “He’s King in the North”, right? Well… I think those hacks wanted Show Jon to be this humble “noble king” while Dany is this “arrogant Queen with all these titles”. And they also want Dany to come as arrogant and entitled so they have her talk about all the shit she went through (like getting raped and betrayed and sold to sexual slavery) and how faith in herself kept her going. Now to the sane layman, that is a strong woman giving herself credit for believing in herself and using her strength to forge something better for herself. But to Dumb&Dumber that is an arrogant and selfish woman not crediting her abusers for her strength. Gosh I loathe Show Sansa but NO ONE deserves to be raped and to have her credit her rapist for her strength is just… wrong. In every way possible.

Then there was that crap with the Tarlys. Those idiots wanted us to see Dany as doing something evil and wrong. Actually they wanted us to see that whole battle as “wrong”. Because they have that tragic music playing and Tyrion looking sadly. The same guy who watched thousands burn in wildfire that he himself laid out. Where was the sad music then? Anyway Dany does what literally not just every King and Queen does but what ever highborn period does after defeating the enemy. She offers them the choice to bend the knee and live and keep their lands. Or death. Same choice Robert Baratheon offered Balon Greyjoy. Same choice the old Stark kings offered their rivals. The two Tarlys choose death so Dany executed them despite multiple chances. And immediately Varys starts comparing her to her father. Except her father (and people like Ramsay Snow, Tywin Lannister, Gregor Clegane, and Euron Greyjoy) wouldn’t have given multiple chances. They would have given no offers. Just murdered them all (Ramsay, Gregor, and Euron simply for their sadistic pleasure). And then they had Jon look uncomfortable when Dany said she had fewer enemies. Which is stupid. Jon has fought battles before. He’s killed thousands to take Winterfell back as Dany herself reminds him.

And they even had it said that Aegon the Conqueror started “the wheel” and got along far with fear. Except… yes Aegon was ruthless when he had to be, but as King he unified a country that was divided and plagued by constant conflicts. He gave them peace and prosperity. And he and his wives were the first to get rid of some unsavory practices. The hacks were determined to have us think that all Targaryens were “mad tyrants”. Idiots would have us think the Starks were democratically chosen leaders instead of ruthless warlords who conquered the North. They never understood the story or the characters. And the signs were there all along that they were ruining and destroying one of the greatest female characters in fictional history.

Longest post I ever wrote! I didn’t cover S8 because nothing needs to be said about that putrid shitshow. But let me end with this. I fully believe that not only will GRRM finish the books… he will give Dany a great and satisfying ending. I hope she becomes Queen but I will perfectly settle for her being alive and well. I have every confidence that she will not get that disgusting show ending. That was a shitty sexist plot point done purely for shock value. But… I guess the signs were there that those hacks never understood or respected Dany. But there are signs that George has great things planned for our beloved Dany. And then that is how she will be remembered. I’m gonna keep believing and hoping. Someone has to, and I will happily be that person. PS: Can people please tell me what they think of all this? Any questions? I’ll happily answer! And reblogs are perfectly acceptable and encouraged! I’d love to hear your thoughts and you can add anything you want.

[saltywinteradult]

oh, d*ny stans. never change.

[visenyaism]

viserys iii wishing the targaryens were kings again by pretending to be young aerys ii who was wishing the targaryens were powerful and feared in the realm by pretending to be aerion brightflame who was wishing the targaryens were dragonriders again by pretending to be daemon targaryen who was wishing the targaryens were conquerors again by pretending to be visenya targaryen who was wishing the targaryens would be of old valyria again by pretending the targaryens weren’t mid-tier irrelevant dragonlords in the old country. because valyria is just an idea it’s a memory of a memory and the last survivors of the doom don’t remember it they just pretend to…dragon eating its own tail moment

[ceriseo]

something about how every time a targ tries to enact real genuine reform to westeros/the dynasty as a whole everything crumples in on itself. viserys naming rhaenyra heir leading to the dance, ensuring that no woman will ever inherit the throne in her own right out of fear of it happening again. daeron 2 establishing a final peace with dorne, (ending the cycle of attempted war of conquest to tense peace to attempted war of conquest) but the inclusion of dornishmen in court being a catalyst for the blackfyre rebellions, igniting a new cycle of attempted conquest every generation or so. egg genuinely being a ruler for the people with the best intentions and then accidently causing the tragedy at summerhall (not even mentioning the fact that daeron 2 literally built summerhall...), his attempts to end the incest foiled by his own children who romanticize the old targs. bc no matter how much they want to change for the better, they are still targaryens of old valyria. they can't help but look back.

[stheresya]

Daenerys' storyline in ADWD is a good way to complexify heroic narratives without invalidating the idealism of the savior. What is in question isn't the morality of freeing slaves (because that's already indisputable), but how to integrate them in society in a effective way when that goes against ancient traditions of subjugation. It offers an honest portrayal of power struggle, how the oppressing class does not give up their power easily, and in order to make a revolution stick you must give the oppressed the necessary tools to keep themselves empowered, the oppressed must be able and willing to reign fire on those who seek to put them in chains again. With heroic narratives there's always an extraordinary someone saving people from certain doom and everyone is happy. the end. But with Dany there's an exploration of the aftermath. Her storyline explores her struggle of wanting to do good, on trying to keep her people safe while dealing with powerful people who seek to maintain their hierarchies. It's an exploration of what power can mean to different groups. Power can be about subjugation but it can also be a way to prevent yourself from being subjugated. The great masters would not have behaved differently if Dany had proposed gradual and peaceful reforms on slavery, because they cared first and foremost about their status as a ruling class, and that status was only possible through the exploitation of other people, because for a group to be above requires all others to be below, stepped on by those above.

[fromtheseventhhell]

When Dany and Arya are the first Targaryen/Stark duo to interact and people start seeing the light on Daenarya >>>>>>

[horizon-verizon]

Calling Daenerys a “colonizer” or an “imperialist” is actually genuinely insane because both her ancestors and her personally are culturally Essosi, and Valyria was itself a big factor in why slavery exists in Essos at the scale it does at all. While Slavers Bay was part of Old Ghis thousands of years ago, it spent an equally sizable and influencial part of its history being part of Valyria, to the point where several of the masters we encountered spoke Valyrian as their first language. She’s not an outsider, and there is no cultural misunderstanding. Outside of the abhorrent practice of slavery, she is attempting to fit in culturally, right down to wearing a tokar.

Some people already explained how it’s not allegorically operation Iraqi freedom from an authorial standpoint, but also, just from a purely political standpoint, Slaver’s Bay is a massive imperialist force itself. It’s not an unstable developing region, and Daenerys is not an agent of a powerful foreign empire attempting to destabilize it for the enrichment and strengthening of that empire. She is a singular individual and former bridal slave being followed by a truly stateless group of former enslaved people from hundreds of different places who herself has literally nothing to gain by staying there. Any allegory to US intervention in the Global South fundamentally falls apart when you think about it for three seconds, because the Slaver’s Bay itself is more akin to the US than it is to any nation in the Global South. (Which is also why it has so many powerful allies in other slavery-practicing parts of Essos trying to get her gone.) It’s a powerful imperialist machine. It also falls apart because it requires to deliberately misunderstand why the US has the intervention policies it does (hint, it’s not actually to spread freedom and democracy. It’s to steal resources.) There are no resources Daenerys needs in Meereen, and she actually is interested in and working towards the longterm stability and improvement of the lives of the people there, which is why she didn’t just fuck off to Westeros (or at least Pentos until her dragons grew) after Astapor.

And her haters keep regurgitating the “she just killed 163 random slavers and didn’t find out who ackshulllyyyy was responsible” talking point, but contrary to the show, there was no poor sad little Hizdar’s daddy who was really really so sad about the 163 murdered enslaved children. Because that’s not how anything works. Killing 163 children to intimidate Daenerys was not something that a few bad eggs got together and did by themselves, it was an official act of the state. The state in Meereen is collectively run by the masters, and organizing that kind of deliberate, calculated horrific action, from planning to execution, is the collective responsibility of all of the officials in the state. Every single one of them was as guilty as the next and the only problem there was symbolically only killing 163 of them instead of the all of them.

just from a purely political standpoint, Slaver’s Bay is a massive imperialist force itself. It’s not an unstable developing region, and Daenerys is not an agent of a powerful foreign empire attempting to destabilize it for the enrichment and strengthening of that empire...Any allegory to US intervention in the Global South fundamentally falls apart when you think about it for three seconds, because the Slaver’s Bay itself is more akin to the US than it is to any nation in the Global South. (Which is also why it has so many powerful allies in other slavery-practicing parts of Essos trying to get her gone.) It’s a powerful imperialist machine. It also falls apart because it requires to deliberately misunderstand why the US has the intervention policies it does (hint, it’s not actually to spread freedom and democracy. It’s to steal resources.)

Absolutely, but they'll almost never admit to that (unless it's like that blonde whitey on TikTok who blase said she'd be fine with Southern states integrating slavery) part of U.S. liberalism is disguised conservatism bc white supremacy.

[umbralsong]

I'm rewatching this mainly to study the components adapted by D&D regarding the Meereen plot with the slavers.

Dany was necessarily aged up, they adapted the Dothraki to be somehow more orientalist and racist than the books (no word for "thank you?" gtfo), and completely neglected Dany's own relationship with being enslaved. Even the most crucial aspects of her early abuse are hand-waved, even when there is a literal in-text comparison to Dany and Khal Drogo's enslaved people wearing golden collars.

GRRM famously wondered what made Aragorn a "good" king, and wondered about his tax policy. Here, he adapts it by having Dany's freed advisor, Missandei of Nath, tactically hit the slavers where it hurts - taxes. People can sell themselves into services, but former enslavers can't sell those they used to own, and husbands cannot sell wives. However morally dubious, these policies have a chilling effect on the trade. There are many unhappy components to Dany's compromise with slavers, but it is my opinion that GRRM is demonstrating the limits of compromise with people who don't believe in the humanity of others.

My research means there is a lot I can go into (like the inherent racism of the whole plot), but I feel the most crucial is the fact D&D, Confederate sympathizers that they are, distilled Hizdar's character to Brown Face to pretend that Dany is a white settler colonizer Just As Bad as the slavers for taking away their sacred fighting right of watching poor people butcher each other and laughing as helpless people are eaten by lions :(((

[nogoodsheepstealing-greatgrandma]

[thevelaryons]

Before the airing of season 1 of House Of The Dragon, the showrunners Ryan Condal and Miguel Sapochnik said Laenor would be a good portrayal of a gay character. Then they made him have internalized homophobia. Then they had him abandon his grieving family to live a free gay life in Essos. He even abandoned his dragon because that was stopping him from being a happy gay man with his lover. As a gay person, it’s one of the worst gay representations I’ve seen in media. The showrunners made their gay character into a terrible selfish person who helps agree to kill one of his family servants so that he can run off with his lover. His allies, Rhaenyra and Daemon, are terrible people too. Laenor was just awful gay representation and ever other gay relationship from the book was erased (I’m glad about it or they would be ruined too).

To be fair, Laenor left because he craved the violence of the battlefield over the mundane life mixed with court politics (not that it’s a much better excuse), but yeah, what the show did to him is a travesty.

I think depicting stories where the gay characters have internalized homophobia is not necessarily an issue. Opinions may vary on this, but as a gay person myself, I’ve enjoyed the kind of stories that tackle the issue of homophobia, so long as it’s well written. Laenor’s story in HOTD is not well written. Especially because that internalized homophobia only exists to make other characters, like Rhaenyra, look good. The reason why Laenor comes off as bad gay rep on the show is because his character is just there to prop up others versus the book portrayal which afforded him integrity as an individual (despite him being a minor character).

That scene in season one/episode seven where Laenor talks about how much he hates himself and then Rhaenyra comforts him by saying that he is a “honourable man with a good heart” is only for Rhaenyra’s benefit. Because Laenor can say in that scene that he wants to be there for his family but then next thing we see is him orchestrating his escape. He’s basically forced out of his own life and the show frames it all as a good thing courtesy of Rhaenyra’s kindness. The window scene between Laenor and Rhaenyra even portrays Rhaenyra with a halo of light around her because it’s not just the writing on this show that’s manipulative but the direction too.

Even just the way Laenor is depicted onscreen is downright offensive. His characterization was changed completely to being a hypermasculine drunk who apparently spends all his time fucking around. He makes vulgar comments about his wife in front of others too. All of it is meant to portray him as a selfish person who is disrespectful while his wife is tirelessly suffering the burdens of having to fulfill her duty. In Fire & Blood, neither of them really gave a damn about each other or about their duty. But the show changes it so that Rhaenyra looks like the good one while throwing Laenor’s character completely under the bus.

Despite Laenor being a rather minor character in the book, GRRM actually gave him some character development. Laenor started out as being somewhat distant from his wife/kids (he was living comfortably on Driftmark while his wife/kids all faced the tense court rivalry by themselves for the most part) but after the rising political tensions between the Blacks and the Greens, Laenor is the one who makes an effort to be there for his family at last, and he did not need to sacrifice his personal life to do so:

“Do keep trying,” Queen Alicent told Ser Laenor, according to Mushroom, “soon or late, you may get one who looks like you.” And the rivalry between the greens and blacks grew deeper, finally reaching the point where the queen and the princess could scarce suffer each other’s presence. Thereafter Queen Alicent kept to the Red Keep, whilst the princess spent her days on Dragonstone, attended by her ladies, Mushroom, and her champion, Ser Harwin Strong. Her husband, Ser Laenor, was said to visit “frequently.”

— Fire & Blood, Heirs of the Dragon

Compare that to what the show did and it’s the complete opposite. Laenor has been living in King’s Landing the whole time and he’s miserable about it. After feeling antagonized by Alicent in season one/episode six, Laenor decides he wants to run away. So Rhaenyra has to tearfully admonish him for his behaviour and plead with him to stay with his family:

I’ve been saying this for a while, but the changes on the show are always deliberately done. It’s not a case of “ambiguous narrator” or “false history” when each time the changes only serve certain characters and screw over others. There’s a clear bias in the writing on HOTD.

[death-of-cats]

if dany's whole thing is freeing the slaves do u think we'll get a thrall uprising on the iron islands when she get to westeros 🤔

[danyseastar]

dany antis no joke gun to your head are slavers good people trying to survive the circumstances they’re dealt with and making an honest living or are they evil little bitches who destroy the lives of everyone they touch and therefore deserve to die

your answer will reflect on your character