#she actually does lack agency is the thing

[whetstonefires]

i mean i was mad because they set up her using her speed-mastery of the rulebook, in the bit that led up to her getting conned into nearly marrying a villain, but then during the story climax she did not get to actually use that for any real advantage.

even though the other bad guy was breaking rules and she had a bunch of rule-enforcers right there, whom she could have used for something to try to avoid sacrificing anybody. she could have made an attempt!

instead she finally asserted her agency and Being The Boss status by deciding to sacrifice Earth and her own life for her loved ones, and telling her subordinates to stay out of it.

and then afterward, having already surrendered, she changed her mind about that, so late that the only reason it didn't get her and her family and the planet earth all killed

(because if she died, and they hadn't personally murdered her, the title to the planet reverted to the other two assholes)

was that her flying dog boyfriend and the cops, her theoretical subordinates, ultimately didn't listen to her, did their own thing the one time she gave a direct order, and saved her ass.

and like, it's all very well to be worth saving to someone, that's a good angle, and in a different plot in the same fucked-up setting their ignoring her orders to save her could have been a high point in itself, with more setup.

but a story that repeatedly reinforces that the female lead is wrong to attempt to do anything, especially make decisions about her own life, was very frustrating to watch.

i got no catharsis on the repeated hammering of the theme of jupiter being helpless and feeling trapped, because her smacking Eddie Redmayne in the face in a context where it accomplished nothing useful didn't address the patterns that actually distressed me.

so i walked out of the theater all knotted up, feeling narratively blueballed.

Jupiter Ascending: *is literally entirely about how Jupiter reacts and the choices she makes in the scenario she finds herself in*

Critics:  Waah waah Jupiter lacks agency.

She has to choose whether or not to save the Earth at great personal cost and she lacks AGENCY?  Did Harry Potter “lack agency” because Hagrid told him he was a wizard?  Put a girl in a showpiece dress once and that’s it, it’s over, no more decisions for her?

I think prokopetz is totally right when he says people are failing to read this movie as a “lost princess” story.  If you want to put this story in a literary and cultural context you have to read it as a princess story.  

Listen up, people, here’s what makes princesses so special and princess stories important: Princesses are simultaneously perfect objects and powerful agents.  “Princess” is a culture hack for women.  If we have to live in a world that’s unequal, then at least we will carve out this one niche sheltered from most of the misogynistic shit women get pelted with.  How and why “princess” and fairy tales about princesses turned into this dual space of desirability and power is long and mostly lost to the mists of time, and has a lot to do with women writing novels in 17th century France and Charles Perrault being a fuckhead, but let’s not get into that.  Let’s just take it as read:  Princesses are special.

Women get objectified a lot, which literally means, “turned into objects”.  We’re defined entirely by the judgments of other people: Are we attractive, do we behave pleasingly, do we have the right attributes and do the right things.  We collude with this to some degree because we want people to like us, because we’re a social species that still instinctively fears abandonment as a precursor to death.  But most of the time the patriarchy makes us compromise: to be good objects, it makes us give up our agency, our ability to make decisions and be actors in our own lives.  To be attractive often means being malnourished, weak, and physically incapacitated.  To be liked means to be meek, mild, and powerless.  The right things we’re supposed to do are let other people make all our decisions for us and not inconvenience people.

Princesses, by some miracle, exploit a loophole in the patriarchy where we can be both.  A princess can both be seen as good, beautiful, wise, deserving of loyalty and devotion, and loved by everyone who sees her, and make her own decisions.  She can act out, run wild, escape the palace, make mistakes, choose the wrong guy, do anything she likes, and still be a princess.  The only thing she did to become a princess was be born, and since the title isn’t “earned”, she can’t lose it by bad behaviour or inadequacy.  It is an inherent state of worthiness.  That is some powerful shit, my friends.

Yes, Jupiter is surrounded by people who suddenly love her and want to defend her and dedicate their lives to her–but that doesn’t take away her right to make her own decisions.  She’s the boss.  She doesn’t have to go it alone and fight all her own battles, although she can if she has to, because women aren’t buried in the toxic masculinity bullshit about being a “lone hero”; her life gets to be rich in meaningful relationships without compromising her.

[sskk-manifesto]

Ep 7 :)

[eliotquillon]

i love how you get to see cassia’s prefrontal cortex develop in real time in wayward. she literally goes from “everything my brother has ever done since birth is a calculated manipulation designed to make me feel bad and bring shame on our family” to “wait maybe my brother stole my toys when he was seven because he was, uh…seven” in the span of 500 pages

[eternal-moss]

When it comes to Farcille, most people talk about either the resurrection & subsequent bathhouse scene, or post-canon. But not many people talk about this moment from pre-canon which I think can be read with romantic connotations pretty easily

This isn’t much in the way of evidence per se, but Falin’s expression here is unusual compared to how she usually looks. Something about it feels…. gay to me lol

This 100% reads like someone introducing a partner to their family. Falin is normally pretty blushey as a default look to her face, but it’s obvious that she’s pretty excited about it, which Laios states himself

THIS MOMENT!! Possessive Marcille!! She’s never usually this forward but in this moment Marcille is pissed. Mainly because she likes to coddle Falin, and also probably wishful thinking that Falin was happier at magic school (and while meeting Marcille did make Falin slightly happier, she was pretty outcast & it doesn’t seem to be somewhere she enjoyed much. She ran away partly because she was worried about Laios, but also she never liked it much there in the first place), hence Marcille’s insistence to bring Falin back later on. That does actually happen I just didn’t add the panels

I’m sure there was genuine concern for Falin’s (presumed lack of) agency in running away, and actually considering the magic school to be better for Falin, but also Marcille is known for wanting control over certain things and probably just wanted Falin with her, from a selfish perspective & also to ‘protect’ her.

Anyway, then Falin bursts into the scene, and the whole ‘it’s not his fault’ looks so much like one of those ‘it’s not what it looks like!!’ romantic tropes, so much so that the crowd assume it to be a lovers spat lmao

Falin downplays how excited she was to see Marcille (and also because the situation is pretty tense) by saying ‘It’s been a while huh?” pretty casually.

“What we’re you thinking?” “…. Do you have any idea how worried I was?” I love these lines, they’re so Marcille. The way she snaps from furious to soft to furious again shows just how much she cares about Falin.

And then this final moment in the dungeon is so hilarious to me because it totally feels like the trope of ‘person trying to impress their love interest’ and goes just about as well as those sorts of schemes tend to work lol

[beannoss]

Something I think about a lot and wonder if maybe gets overlooked in Twilight’s story and as vitally indicative of his character is actually in the very first chapter:

Anya isn’t needed for Strix. Twilight decides to adopt her anyway.

[Spoiler warning: Mostly this post deals with early chapters already in the anime but there is reference to chapter 62, which has not yet been animated and will be in season 3]

Twilight decides it — “I’m going to rework the mission so it doesn’t involve a child because that’s too dangerous” and he’s 100% right! Donovan Desmond is canonically a far right warmonger with fascistic authoritarian aims. His government made liberal use of the SSS — a group to mirror the Stasi — who continue to operate in morally dubious ways (much more likely they’re actively morally reprehensible, though we’ve mostly only had rumours of that so far). From what we can tell, Desmond is at best an absent father and likely actually worse than that: if that's how he treats his own children, imagine how he might treat others. And the timeline seems to indicate that the experimentation performed on Anya was done under Desmond's government — even if Twilight isn't aware of experimentation on children, he is aware of both human and animal experimentation under Desmond's government. Taking all that and also the complexity of Strix's aims, undoubtedly there were other things that could be done, more straightforward if not necessarily easier.

So. Why? Why entertain the change at all? And then, having entertained it, why go back when the reasoning is indisputable?

On the Doylist level, I think Endo wanted to ensure that Anya had some agency within the set up — Endo also does this with Yor. It would be much harder to be on Twilight’s side fully, or to trust him on an ethical level/take him as any sort of moral authority, if he were just straightforwardly using these two people. To have them be active and consenting participants (arguably to actually be affirming the arrangement: Twilight sets it up, but Anya and Yor actually make it happen) even if the audience only knows the depth of their knowledge/motivations/etc currently, shifts the power dynamic in important ways.

But it also the set up tells us important things about Twilight. He is largely impatient, cold, detached in chapter one. His overarching feelings towards Anya are, I think, real annoyance, real confusion, and real impatience. He just doesn’t understand this damn kid and it turns out she’s a person which is frankly unacceptable — he’d needed and anticipated an automaton, ideally of himself in miniature form. (Though I think one could ponder whether Twilight was, in many ways, an automaton himself at this point, but that's maybe for another meta 🙃)

He’s not entirely unmoved of course — we're given to understand he’s affected when Franky tells him how many times Anya’s been adopted and returned, and isn't amused by Franky's joke about names. Franky's comment — "Just don't get attached" — reinforces this. The prospect of “the future” perturbs Twilight when he’s reading the parenting books. His initial reaction to Anya’s kidnap is horror. All these are true too.

Then there’s also this, from earlier in the chapter:

It’s exposition, yeah, and it’s also exposing. "Hopes" and "joys" are very specific words to describe those events. It could simply have been "A marriage? An ordinary life?" but describing them as such — hope for marriage; joy in ordinary life — expose something of what Twilight feels about those two experiences and, on the flipside, they expose what he deems he's lacking. No hopes of intimacy; no joy in (an ordinary) life. There's an argument as well, of course, that he's being ironic but I don't think that actually invalidates the above analysis. Drawing attention to 'hope' and 'joy' at all are revealing, regardless of Twilight's tone in thinking of them. I think it's also interesting this panel, taken in conjunction with a pair of panels in chapter 62, Twilight's backstory. The above is almost a pulled out version of this below panel of Twilight's recollection of his childhood, and of course the returning image of not just a rubbish bin but a rubbish bin on fire when it comes to disposing of his identity:

Back to Strix. Both his final interaction with Karen and the whole everything of the framing of Strix is making Twilight think (and feel, ahem) things that he hasn't for some time. Twilight decides, I’m reworking this. It can’t proceed this way. Not because Anya is a pain in his ass, not because she’s not as (apparently) intellectually advanced as he’d originally thought, not even because he thinks he can find another child who would better be exactly what mission parameters called for. No:

And what changes his mind is Anya asking to come home.

One of the important parts of this to me is this:

He seeks consent.

This moment is a keystone, I think, to understanding Twilight. It’s also more telling than he maybe realises. Twilight is decisive — we all laugh because he spirals at the drop of a hat when his daughter or wife look even mildly upset but outside those (also very telling) scenarios, he makes decisions and he pursues them. Often he makes decisions quickly. He’s a dab hand at it; it’s a large part of why he’s as good a spy as he is.

He’d decided to change Strix.

Anya asks him, in essence, not to.

So, he doesn't.

But it's wild that he entertains keeping her request at all — why? Why even entertain it? It’s dangerous; it’s impractical; there are too many moving parts outside his direct control; Anya isn’t the sort of child he’d wanted for the mission if he’d spent any time thinking about what a child might actually be like; Strix is in many ways an extremely long shot anyway, Desmond could just stop attending for reasons unknown and unrelated; etc.

So, yeah, why? Maybe because of this —

In conjunction, I often think of this moment in the cruise arc:

Twilight first naming the feeling as lonesome, and secondly tacitly conceding that he perceives Yor as a companion and that that relationship is important to him, something to be missed. What makes this for me though is that Anya calls this out "Papa's you're so sappy" and Twilight's reaction is that of someone caught-out. He doesn’t say “nuh-uh!” but he may as well have. Essentially, something landed a bit close to home, hm? Maybe some of that hope for marriage? A soupçon of joy of an ordinary life?

Twilight’s loneliness underpins many of his decisions with his family — probably without him being fully conscious of it. I think he is at least somewhat conscious of it, but also if he looks too closely... Well, best not to. I could fill this post, I think, with images that demonstrate his loneliness throughout the series; that sorrowful/pensive close-up of his eye(s) is one of the abiding motifs for Twilight throughout. I'd probably start with this one from Twilight's backstory arc:

Anya's request plays directly off his loneliness. Still though, he doesn’t immediately capitulate — he emphasises Anya’s choice. Is she sure? The last day has been scary for a child (and for him, but he's ignoring that part) and Twilight, in his increasing recognition that Anya is a person, is probably aware in the back of his mind that he hasn’t exactly been warm or welcoming or at all patient with her. Things that people respond to — he's otherwise excellent at manipulating people, so of course he understands this. So. Given she'd just had this scary experience, given he hasn't exactly been great with her: Is she sure? She wants to come home — with him?

I think the moment may get a little lost because Anya says something riffing off his own earlier thoughts and self-revelation (featuring that shadowed, lonely eye motif again!)

Were this a post about Anya, I’d talk about how it’s an important character moment for her as well by way both of demonstrating her agency/choice and also that she isn’t nearly as dumb as Twilight thinks (and the audience, maybe, also thinks).

But in my view, she didn’t actually need to say anything about it making her cry. I think she could simply have said yes in that moment and Twilight would have agreed.

Twilight’s an unreliable narrator; he’s disconnected from his heart and that shrouds his own motivations from himself — something he actually also concedes in this chapter!

And it shrouds from us just how much he actually understands himself. He’s also a master of deflection. Easy to assume or say that bringing Anya home is just to align with Strix. Nothing more to see here; nothing else going on. But also that ripping off of the mask in the panel above — and the literal 'riiip' sound effects — also indicate to us that this is an unveiling to himself.

In my view, Twilight agreeing to Anya's request, deciding to go back to original mission parameters, actually shifts his motivations, subtly. Now he’s committed not only to the original mission goals, but also to Anya. He needs Anya to succeed at Strix, not only for Strix's sake, but also because otherwise the mission will end and she’ll have to go back to the orphanage, and he’s just agreed with her not to do that (not right away, in any case). I don’t think at this point he’s thinking it’s forever — his thoughts throughout the manga indicate he still expects the Forgers to be temporary. I don't think the shift in motivation is necessarily even conscious, but given the set up, I think something inside Twilight recognises that agreeing to bring Anya home is a compact, jointly engaged. Mostly all this has become subsumed into Strix: he makes decisions. He pursues them. He deflects, even from himself. Of course it's just for the mission; this saved him the trouble of reworking it, of figuring out something else. Nothing more to see; no need to think any more on it. And to be fair to him, Strix is very high stakes, resting pretty solely on his shoulders, so of course that is, objectively, motivation enough. Why even consider beyond that?

But I personally think that to the extent he's aware of it at all, there is something else going on, that he wants to have Anya for as long as it takes him to work something else out for her. If that's the case, then of course, we have Occam’s razor: the simplest solution may be the best one.

Maybe Twilight should just keep Anya himself, eh?

[Image description: gif from Spy x Family season 1, episode 1. Twilight and Anya have just found out Anya passed her entrance exam and are overjoyed. Celebratory, Twilight picks Anya up and swoops her into the air as they smile at one another. End image description]

[shorthaltsjester]

sorry if it was unclear but the clarification on ashton's position in 110 that has made the ugliness of his current ideology clear was not the fact that he listened to what was said to him, it was his claim after that "The shard of titan in me, it's good. If things go the way I think they're going to go... I think nature is ready to right itself one way or another. [...] I think the world is ready for a bit more chaos. I think that we could be good for this place and I think we will more than survive the gods, if it comes to it ."

First, claiming that nature as titan has any moral standing at all is a bold move, because then ashton is ascribing the exact same power structure he thinks is inherently horrible with the gods to the titans. the titans are morally neutral if taken to be part of nature, the shard is just power, ashton's assumption that there is something about the titans that makes their responses and role in the world more right, natural, or most of all good is literally just. textbook essentialism.

but second. one of the first pieces of communication in that exchange was a correction of ashton's thinking (one similar to the correction the matron was trying to draw out as she kept bringing up the agency of mortals and their power). when ashton says "i'm a part of you." they're corrected and told that actually she's a part of ashton. in the literal sense this is obvious that the shard is inside ashton, but it also speaks to the pattern of bh looking everywhere but inward for an answer to what they should do, which is rather comedic given the degree to which ashton is willing to reinterpret anything said to them to get a specific answer but not actually uphold their own agency when it comes to 'nature righting itself.'

particularly i find revealing the "we will more than survive the gods" part. even taken as generously as possible and assuming ashton is just exercising his lack of judgement and does mean all mortals in his use of the "we" pronoun there, he has completely overlooked what was explicitly said about how, if the world is remade, only the strong are likely to survive. paired with the notion that the world needs a bit more chaos after spending weeks with several people whose lives have been irreparably damaged by the chaos that the other person in exandria who is appealing to a greater power to free him from the responsibility of dealing with his trauma at any cost... even my best faith still comes out of that looking at ashton (as someone who literally earlier in the same episode pushed back against his party members being optimistic because it wasn't realistic) as someone acting with naive optimism for blatantly selfish reasons. also just, general icky feelings about ashton referring to nature righting itself, the world getting more chaos, if things go the way he thinks they're going to go in vague, hand-wavy fashion when he should well know, punk icon that he is, all the violence those notions include.

[crybaby-bkg]

cw: sex workers reader and toji, wrestling, he puts you in a headlock, ass slapping

as a sex worker under an agency, you sometimes get the opportunity to perform certain tropes that you wouldn't think too much about doing on your own. there have been quite a few that your manager has thrown your way; medical play, light BDSM scenes, and now, mixed wrestling. you've done your fair share of oiled up fighting with other women in your career, but you've never wrestled a man before.

its all staged, much like real wrestling except—except you're not too sure why or how you were paired up with infamous actor Toji Fushigurou. technically speaking, you two aren't anywhere near the same weight class, but you're not sure if technicalities even count for a job like this.

there are a few rules: no actual striking of each other, take the others underwear off during the fight, no biting. as the ref lists off all the other little things you two need to remember, you both take each other in. Toji is, for lack of better words, fucking huge. he's got at least six inches on you, packed with muscle and a nonchalant kind of finesse that makes you just the slightest bit nervous under his stare. he stands only in a tight pair of black boxer briefs, and you can make out the outline of his soft cock, despite the fact that it still rests low on his thigh.

he grins at you when he notices your ogling, winking once when you frown at him. he's been in the industry for so long, he's more than used to being objectified, but something about your little defiance that shines in your eyes makes him want to tear into you, piece by piece.

"Go!" the ref announces once she's finished listing her instructions. Toji doesn't immediately attack you, instead grins at you, hands on his waist as he cocks an inquisitive eyebrow in your direction. with a, albeit weak, battle cry, do you lunge at him—

and quickly find yourself pinned. you don't know how he does it so quickly, maneuver you as if you only weighed a pound, but he does it. catches you in his arms and swings you around until your back meets the floor with a grunt, the wind suddenly knocked out of you. he's gentle though, where he pins you with his knees on either side of you.

"At least try to put up a fight," he teases you, pulling at the straps of your bikini. but you fight him off as much as you can, grunting and cursing at him, taking this entirely too seriously for what will ultimately end with you being fucked into oblivion by the man. doesn't mean you have to go out without a fight, though.

although, your fight doesn't mean much to Toji. by the third and final round, you're fully naked and he's still got his underwear on. your ass is slapped raw by how many times his too big hands have groped you, nipples pinched to sensitivity. you're not surprised when the ref announces your lost, tells Toji to claim his prize.

and he does just that. pins you on the floor, finally releasing the thickness of his cock. he's cocky the entire time, teasing, with how he pins you on your stomach, holding you in a headlock as he fucks his cock too deep inside of you to put up much of a fight anymore.

"Did you even try?" he asks, breathy, a smirk plastered on his face as he looms over your shoulder. "Or did you want to end up like this? With my dick in your stomach? The fight worked you up that much, huh?"

he taps your clit with too thick, mean fingers with his other hand, tightening his bicep around your throat when you try to get smart with him. he knows its all bark and no bite, if judging by the way your cunt sucks him in is anything to go by. you can only gurgle out a curse to him, eyes rolling back in your head when his wicked laugh only pushes you over the edge to climax.

(after the scene ends, he kisses your temples and squeezes your waist, telling you that you guys should do more scenes together. you only stick out your tongue at him, promising to get stronger so you can take him down next time. he laughs at you, more than happy to entertain your thoughts that will, truthfully, never come true.)

[a-town-called-hometown]

yippee! apologies if my takes are horrendously bad

my personal take on the matter is that i definitely think the dark worlds can work as a metaphor for escapism without undermining the darkners' personhood. it can be more than one thing, yknow? the darkners are important, their lives matter. and the lightners do go to the dark world as an escape from the problems they face in their own life. but that's not the darkners' whole PURPOSE, yknow? i mean. according to the laws of the universe of deltarune yes darkners' "purpose" is to serve the lightners but like it's not their whole purpose in the STORY.

it's sort of like how, in UNDERTALE, LOVE represents how distant you've become, how easy it is for you to hurt people. but it also literally gives you the power to destroy the world.

i think the biggest reason i believe escapism is at least a part of deltarune's narrative is queen.

queen's whole speech in both of her fights is about how she intends to provide escapism for the lightners (so that they will worship her but also so that they will he happy). she wants to turn the whole world into a dark world, so that everyone can live in bliss and not have to worry about the woes of the light world. she mentions "Staring, Tapping, To Receive Joy. Staring, Tapping, To Avoid Pain." which is like pretty much the definition of escapism

she wants to help Noelle with the problems she faces in the light world ("Noelle. Who Will Be There To Help Her? Her Strange And Sad Searches" and "My One Idea To Help Noelle, Failed") by just... shoving it away for a blissful fantasy world ("Wake? No, She Has Already Awakened Too Much. Let Her Close Her Eyes And Sleep Away, Into A Darker, Darker Dream.")

...i forgot the rest of what i wanted to say!

well first off, thank you for your ask! I'm going to get extremely in depth in my answer, so bear with me here. sorry it took several weeks to write this. the escapism reading of deltarune is pretty deeply entrenched in fandom, and to refute it, I felt it required a full-length essay to completely explain my viewpoint.

yes, "the lightners desire escapism" does not automatically translate to that being the darkners' actual narrative purpose. escapism can be a theme without dehumanizing those who are used in order to escape - in fact, I've read a number of stories that use someone's desire to escape to HIGHLIGHT how they're hurting others in pursuit of that. I believe that toby fox is definitely capable of telling a story about kids having a valid desire to escape, and about them grappling with having inadvertently created a world of real, living people as a result.

(I'll reiterate again that this is not the story arc that generally shows up in fanon. the common consensus is that the game will end in an omori-esque "growing out of" the dark worlds. it's why I have a huge dislike of the fanon escapism reading, given that the darkners are shown as people whose lack of agency parallels kris' own. it would feel cheap if the resolution to that plot was that the darkners were actually never meant to be agents in their own fates. but this is a digression.)

the reason why i DON'T believe that this is a story that toby fox is telling is because of the way the world, themes, and characters are written. put simply, it just doesn't come across as congruent with the story being told.

deltarune's main themes are agency, fate, identity, and control. this is a conflict that shows up in nearly every major character, is baked into the worldbuilding, and is the central struggle involving us, the player. the protagonist of deltarune is literally possessed by us against their will. the darkners are objects that have no choice but to serve and be discarded. over and over again, there is emphasis on roles that characters play - and crucially, roles that are imposed on them.

what would escapism mean, in this thematic context? in real life, escapism can represent any number of things, but in a story, a major narrative theme generally has to dovetail with other major narrative themes in the work. I would argue that escapism in deltarune would likely mean going to a place where characters are able to choose for themselves what roles they embody, or even to discard the notion of roles altogether. a fantasy of control is the only way to escape a reality where you have no agency. and honestly, it's hard to imagine that something could count as an escapist fantasy if you don't even get to choose whether or not you participate in it.

let's talk about kris.

I see a lot of discussions around kris that say that kris goes into the dark worlds to escape. the dark worlds are posited as kris' fantasy of heroism. it's a world where they can seem heroic and cool, a world where they can have friends. this theory makes a decent amount of sense on the surface level, but only until you consider that kris is being controlled in order to go into the dark worlds. and it is not a control that they appear to welcome.

if those worlds represent kris' fantasy, then why don't they get to choose what happens in those fantasies? why are they being controlled by an external force, one that they actively push back against? if it's really an escape, then why does everything about this world reflect their lack of agency? if they really think this world is just a pure fantasy, then why do they care if spamton falls when his strings are cut?

because they're being deliberately obscured to the player, it is hard to say how kris actually feels about many subjects... but I do seriously doubt that they view the dark worlds as an escape. they don't act in a way that is consistent with that. they resist their lack of agency, and what little we do see of their reactions to darkner characters doesn't suggest that they view those characters as part of a disposable fantasy, either. they seem to have complicated feelings on ralsei. and of course, one of their biggest emotional reactions in the game is to the spamton fight. I would argue that that suggests they have empathy for spamton, which is a hard emotional reaction to have if you believe he's just part of a fantasy. not impossible, mind you, but it seems unlikely that kris believes that all this is simply fantasy.

also, considering that snowgrave both actively discredits the idea that the dark worlds are mere fantasy and is actively traumatic for kris... I seriously doubt they'd open another dark world in chapter 3 on a snowgrave run if their motive was purely to escape. on that route, they've seen the damage we can cause in a dark world. they know that berdly has sustained lasting damage due to our actions, assuming he's not outright dead. why would they want to try and "escape" to a place like that again now that they know what can happen?

the only answer is that they have a motive that isn't escapist.

now, as for ralsei... what part does he have to play in all this?

ralsei does play a lot to the fun, fantastical elements of the dark worlds. he delivers the prophecy that kickstarts the adventure. he flatters both kris and susie endlessly when they act appropriately heroic. he welcomes them into the castle and even makes nice rooms for them. he initially seems tailor-made to enable a fantastical experience where no real issues can ever complicate anything, and where the pain of reality can successfully be hidden from. but there's a lot of complications to the idea that he might represent an escapist fantasy.

the first, and what honestly seems the most important to me, is that he doesn't encourage kris and susie to remain in the dark worlds. he is welcoming and kind, but once the adventure is over, he prompts them to return to the light world. he wants them to deal with their more "real" problems like homework. that doesn't feel like he is trying to facilitate escapism in them. a real fantasy would encourage you to stay in it, wouldn't it?

and while ralsei is definitely invested in making sure the lightners are happy, there are always cracks that show. he isn't able to make kris ignore what happened in the spamton fight. he isn't able to convince susie to be peaceful and kind. and in his very essence, he represents a number of uncomfortable ideas. very importantly, he represents a number of uncomfortable ideas to kris.

this probably ain't your first fandom rodeo, so I'm not going to explain all the different ways that ralsei interacts with kris' personal issues. there's plenty of posts on it out there. what i will point out is, once again, it feels odd that a character who seems tailor made to bring up kris' most uncomfortable associations with their lack of agency and their outsider status in their own family would be part of a fantasy of escapism to them. you'd think that they'd prefer something that didn't have an inbuilt hierarchy, a prophecy that denied them autonomy, or especially a person that reminded them how little they fit into hometown.

that doesn't mean kris doesn't care about him at all - it seems very likely that they do. what I mean to say here is that he just seems ill-suited to an escapism reading, both behaviorally and on a conceptual level. it doesn't seem like that's at all part of his servitude towards the lightners.

of course, there is another non-lightner entity that ralsei seems diegetically engineered to serve. but I'll discuss that later.

now as for susie...

yes, susie definitely views the dark worlds as more fun than the light world. and why wouldn't she? the light world sucks for her, and she doesn't seem very aware of the fact that the dark world can also suck. you could definitely make the argument that she views the dark worlds as a fantastical escape from reality... were it not for the fact that she treats her darkner friends with just as much importance as she does kris and noelle.

can someone treat components of an escapist fantasy as real and important? of course. but given deltarune's themes of agency and control, as well as the fact that darkners exist in servitude to the lightners, I feel like you'd have to make escapism tie into forcing others into a lack of agency if you wanted the theme to feel coherent with the rest of the work. this would require susie to be limiting the agency of the darkners around her. and obviously, she doesn't do that. her presence around them might be inherently limiting, just by simple virtue of being a lightner, but she isn't aware of it, and clearly is uncomfortable with the idea of limiting anyone's agency. she encourages ralsei to make choices. and she supports lancer in basically anything he wants to do. her treatment of lancer is integral to chapter 1's narrative, and it seems like that treatment of ralsei is integral to the ongoing narrative as well!

her preference for the dark world feels very rooted in her engagement with it as its own reality. rather than trying to avoid her real-life problems by engaging in a pretense, she seems to simply want to spend time with her friends in a place that isn't cruel to her. she isn't ignoring any of the dark world's problems in service of that, either. she notices when things don't line up. if she thought of it as a fantasy, wouldn't she be inclined to ignore issues that impede the fantasy?

and critically - like kris, she does not intentionally choose her imposed role in the prophecy at first. she steps into the role of bad guy to resist it, but that role is limiting too, and she eventually acquiesces to being a hero. it's never something she's completely on board with, though. she actively pushes back the limitations that the role places on her. I find this important to reiterate when we are discussing the notion of the characters viewing the dark worlds as fantasy.

noelle has a complicated relationship to the dark worlds. susie tells her that it's a dream to make her accept the strange reality she finds herself in, which works well on her. she continues to think of it as a strange dream throughout the chapter. (though, like the others, it is not a 'dream' she entered of her own volition!)

it is also a markedly unpleasant 'dream' at times. she has her agency restricted, is kidnapped, has to evade a controlling monarch, and is even tied up in a weird evangelion cross thing on the hand of a giant robot. it's not purely fun. noelle does like scary things, and while it might be healthy for her to have an experience where she stands up to a controlling adult figure... again, the circumstances make it difficult for me to assume that this is a fantasy she would choose for herself. not impossible, mind you, but it's not the first reading of the situation that comes to mind.

and while she does say she wishes she could dream like this every day in the normal route, that does happen specifically because she was talking to the girl she likes. it makes sense she'd find that pleasant. I don't think that necessarily equates to her finding the dark worlds escapist.

and importantly, this isn't the sentiment that she expresses in every route.

again, there's a lot of analysis on snowgrave, so I won't bother regurgitating it much here. but it's nightmarish for both kris and noelle, and very likely fatal for berdly. noelle needs to believe that the event is a dream, for her own psychological safety, but one of the most important parts of snowgrave...

...is that its events, and the world it took place in, are very, very real.

noelle wants to have the strength to face her problems, both in the regular route and in the snowgrave route. rather than escaping from them, she views the "dream" as a chance to practice dealing with her day-to-day issues. it's just that in the regular route she finds that strength authentically, and in the snowgrave route, that desire is manipulated and pushed until she is forced to kill berdly. she doesn't interpret snowgrave as an escape gone wrong. she views it as a dream that became a nightmare. and those are two extremely different things.

but i haven't even gotten to the biggest thing that undermines the concept that the dark worlds are a metaphor for escapism! which is: this fucking guy is dead wrong about everything.

so full disclaimer - I really love berdly. I think he's slept on a lot in the fandom because he's annoying and weird. which is fair, I suppose, but I think ignoring him hinders a lot of people's understanding of deltarune's overall narrative. because berdly often illustrates a lot of concepts in the game, but his narrative framing as a joke (usually...) prevents the player from taking it completely seriously. he has things to say and ideas to show off, it's just that he's often very loud and kind of dumb in his expression of them. which is kind of the point!

ralsei brings up the idea that the darkners are meant to serve the lightners very seriously in chapter one. by extension, and by way of the literal mechanics involved in a dark world's creation, we can infer that this logic is probably something that also applies to the dark worlds themselves. they are allegedly worlds and characters that only are supposed to fulfill a dream of the lightners. but due to narrative framing and deltarune's themes, we know that that's not the full truth. however dark worlds and darkners are created, they deserve to have their own agency. they can't just exist to fulfill a higher being's wishes.

you know who else undermines that view of the dark worlds? berdly! berdly does!!!!

because berdly is the only lightner in the game so far who does take the dark worlds to be an escapist adventure! he wants to turn cyber world into smartopia. he views this as a chance to be a cool hero. he believes he's going to get the girl, he's going to shape this world to his own liking, and maybe also he's going to get queen to acknowledge him or something so he stops being a forgettable little bluebird. and not only does none of this happen, his steadfast belief that it will happen is continually a joke within the narrative!!

berdly's wishes for uncomplicated escapist fantasy are flat-out denied by the dark worlds themselves. as a lightner, those worlds should be serving him. he should have the power to do whatever he wants within the bounds of an escapist fantasy. these npcs should be singing his praises!

but he doesn't have the power. and this world doesn't sing his praise. because it just isn't an escapist fantasy. he isn't right to view it that way. his wishes for heroism are always going to be thwarted.

so now that I've gotten all that out of the way, let's swing back over to the subject of your original ask. queen.

because, like berdly, queen's entire character arc is about how she's completely wrong about what the lightners actually want.

queen would in fact like nothing more to place the lightners into an escapist fantasy. she believes that that's the best way to serve them and make them happy forever. as a darkner, queen has very much internalized the idea that a lack of control is what actually makes people happy. since darkners have no choice in their destinies and are supposed to be happy in it, and since she personally finds her role as a darkner fulfilling, she believes that that's true of all people everywhere. if you want to make people happy, you just have to remove that pesky personal agency!

so she spends the story trying to force the lightners and particularly noelle into situations where she controls them in order to make them ostensibly happier. she does genuinely believe that this is the right thing to do, but as she finds out eventually, she's just wrong. noelle doesn't want that. queen believes that escapism is why the lightners use the internet... but that's totally wrong too.

while there are other searches mixed in, noelle is trying to use the internet to find her sister. instead of trying to hide from whatever happened, noelle wants to figure it out. queen's thesis about noelle and the lightners is proven wrong even before she personally encounters noelle in the dark world. it's just that queen doesn't realize it due to her limited perspective.

the concept of escapism being brought up with both queen and berdly is not there to say that the dark world is escapist. rather, it's there to say that it isn't. despite the dark worlds being a fantastical place, they are extremely real. to view them as a means of escape is foolhardy at best. you cannot act as though you are above consequences within them.

themes and ideas exist within the story for a sake of an audience. so let's get into the final character I need to discuss here. hopefully this will tie my thesis of deltarune together neatly.

that character is of course us. the player.

when creating a piece of fiction, an astute author will often identify and anticipate an audience's reactions to certain things in their work, and write things in such a way that they elicit the desired reactions. in essence, a writer is directing the "character" of the audience. how we feel and how we are anticipated to react to things is an integral part of nearly every fiction.

that effect is far more overt when dealing with metanarrative fiction that diegetically involves the audience. since the fiction is saying a lot of things about the general 'you,' the audience in aggregate, your reactions to certain things in the story have to be finely cued and anticipated by the author, so that the author can thus commentate on the reactions that you have to the story. the "character" you are assumed to inhabit is posited by the author to have certain traits.

to explain what I mean in plainer terms, I'll use the player of undertale's no mercy route as an example. because undertale is commenting on the way rpgs generally work. the player's behaviors in no mercy are attributed by characters in the story to be the result of us acting like a typical gamer. we kill the characters in the game because we want exp. and more than that, it's because we want to see everything the game has to offer. the role we inhabit in this role-playing game is that of a completionist. you could say that that's assumed to be our "character" in no mercy.

deltarune also posits that certain things are true of its audience. by being written to evoke certain cultural ideas, rpg tropes, and references to undertale, it guarantees that its audience will probably have certain traits, and spends a large amount of its conceptual focus commenting on those traits. one of those traits is nostalgia, which is probably an idea that I'll expound upon in a further essay because it's quite integral to my reading of deltarune. but the main one I mean to discuss here, and why I went off on this tangent about how audiences are dealt with in metafiction, is that we are posited as someone who believes in the logic of certain narratives.

deltarune's writing evokes a lot of portal fantasy narratives. alice in wonderland, narnia, pretty much every story where it's revealed at the end to be all a dream... the story of deltarune superficially resembles a lot of those. this, I think, is responsible for the popularity of the escapism theory. because those stories are often at their end about a child learning to put away fantasy and grow up, people tend to believe that deltarune must be about the same thing. but I truly don't think that deltarune is trying to do anything with that aspect of portal fantasy narratives, at least not directly. its main characters aren't involved in that exact type of coming-of-age arc.

instead, deltarune is very concerned with what happens to characters in fantasy, and specifically fantasy rpgs. if your world is deemed to not matter because it's a dream, what does that mean for you, who has no choice but to live in it? if you are an npc whose role has been predetermined for you via script, then can you ever decide for yourself what you want? what if you want to matter? what if you want to be your own person?

as the major controlling force of deltarune, we are initially cued to believe that deltarune is like a dream. it superficially fulfills so much of what we want from undertale fanon. hometown seems like it's a perfect idyllic town, at least until you start noticing the obvious cracks. and remember what I said about ralsei earlier? he is so reminiscent of asriel, and extremely eager to help us. it's not a stretch to say that making us specifically view deltarune as dreamlike and idyllic is probably part of his purpose in the game.

I would not say that we are posited as escapist. but the idea of escapism as brought up with queen and berdly is meant to strike at the heart of a much deeper idea that deltarune is trying to deconstruct. because if we view deltarune as a dream, escapist or otherwise, then we are inclined to write the internal realities of the characters inside off. the dark world can disappear without it mattering. we can control kris without it mattering. if it's all a dream, what does it matter? why should we care to let its characters go free? aren't we supposed to be in control?

if deltarune is an rpg... what is the significance of us interacting with it?

[bloodraven55]

as someone who’s struggled with the exact same flaw i really like how falin’s tendency to be too people pleasing and in most cases conflict/harm avoidant even to a detrimental extent is actually treated as something unhealthy for both her and others that she needs to work through

tho i also appreciate there being exceptions e.g. her not caring about hurting others to save laios or marcille/considering accepting toshiro’s proposal despite not being in love with him bc it makes her more realistic and well-rounded than a lot of characters in that archetype

and honestly i don’t get the take that falin’s a flat or uninteresting character when there’s a lot to be said on how her presence and agency being removed by death or chimerafication reflects the lack of a true sense of self which her happy ending is finally getting to discover

like maybe i’m just projecting with that angle but regardless for me it’s just like…….. yes she serves as a plot device however so do many or even most characters in stories to some extent and it isn’t inherently a bad thing nor does it automatically make them one-dimensional

[adragonsfriend]

Congratulations, It's a Boy!

Anakin: i think our kid is gonna be a girl

Padmé: I think our kid is gonna be a boy

Fandom: aww they were both right lmao

Me: actually Padmé was right, because while she gave birth to twins, neither of them were raised by Anakin and Padme, and when Luke and Leia learned about their bio-parents, only Luke ever called himself their kid.

Leia is an adult with agency and values who does not consider Anakin anything other than a genetic donor, and would actually hate for the person who tortured her and helped kill her parent and destroy her planet to be considered her father.

Genuinely the lack of respect for the concept of her adoptive parents being her actual parents, and the insistence that she gets all her traits from Anakin and Padme is incredibly weird. (Not aimed at AUs where Anakin is not a deadbeat fascist, write on). With Luke, Beru and Owen are so often erased from his story as though he was just always casting about for family—like he didn’t already have one—it’s insane. Like yeah he called them his uncle and aunt, but they were the people who raised him. Emotionally and logistically the roles they filled were those of parents.

This is for the other Double Agent Vader fans, but genuinely one of my favourite things about those stories is that they take the Organas seriously as Leia’s parents while allowing Anakin to also be important to her. They also take seriously that Luke lost Beru and Owen and was, yk, also still grieving at the end of A New Hope

Anyway I’m tired of hearing about how Leia’s righteous anger or her bravery and sense of humor are totally from Anakin and her involvement in politics is all Padme, when she has two caring, brave, intelligent, funny parents who were involved in both politics and the rebellion.

Tldr; Anakin and Padmé have one kid, his name is Luke, and the reason he’s their kid is because he, as an adult with agency and values, decided he was their kid.

[raineandsky]

#124

The hero rolls up on the driveway of a simple house. A giant tree is taking up most of the front garden, and with a squint they can see the cat they’re here to rescue, sitting as high as physically possible amongst the leaves. Someone is standing at the bottom, staring up at it, a large blanket wrapped in their arms.

The hero gets out of their car and slams the door behind them, earning the person’s attention. The hero is rather surprised, for lack of a better word, to find the villain looking back at them.

The villain seems to go through the five stages of grief in the space of a second. Their whole body is tensed, like they’re going to bolt at any second. “What the hell are you doing here?”

The hero turns their eyes up to the cat above them. A giant thing, bless. A ragdoll, if the fluffiness is anything to go by. “Is the cat yours?”

The villain follows their gaze. “I called the fire apartment for that,” they mumble.

“Well, the fire department sent me,” the hero says innocently. “How long has it been up there?”

“She has been there for two hours.”

“And you stood out here for two hours before you thought calling someone was a good idea?”

“Did the fire department send you to mock me?” The villain scowls, the blanket scrunched tight in their fists. “I don’t think I can be bothered dealing with you today.”

“Nah, they just thought I could earn some bonus popularity with the public if I save a cat,” the hero comments idly.

“Well, you’re not earning any popularity here,” the villain snaps, “so you can go ahead and get the people I actually called out here.”

“What would the agency think if I can’t even save a cat?” The hero barks a laugh. “Unfold your blanket. It’s useless like that.”

The villain’s scowl deepens but they do as they’re told, flapping the blanket to unravel it from whatever weird braid they’ve woven it into. The hero studies the tree, carefully testing the sturdiness of the footholds, before carefully puling themself off the ground.

The villain looks up to find the hero halfway up the tree and, perhaps in the world’s rarest show of concern, cries, “what are you doing?”

“Saving your cat,” the hero retorts between short breaths. The cat yowls as they get close, a spit of a hiss thrown at them as a warning. Pets are like their owners, the hero supposes.

“You’re okay, Dusty!” the villain shouts, then a little more incredulously, “she doesn’t like other people. Just so you know.”

The hero can see that from the way Dusty—Dusty, how much does the villain hate her to call her that?—is still hissing and edging out of reach. She can’t go much further but by god, she’s going to try.

The branch under the hero curves dangerously as they pull themself up. Dusty’s claws are very much out, digging into the bark under her feet as the branch sways, another hiss spat at the hero. “I’m trying to help you,” the hero says sharply, as if she can understand them. “God, I’m not doing this for you again.”

The hero edges along the branch, acutely aware of how much it’s bending under their weight. Seemingly too close for comfort, Dusty makes a furious swipe with that hiss that’s probably going to haunt the hero’s nightmares. “[Villain],” they call, “get under her. It’s not exactly stable up here.”

The villain moves into position without complaint, the blanket stretched out in their arms. The hero doesn’t get to check them before Dusty’s making another goddamn swipe. Dogs, the hero thinks, are so much easier.

The hero nudges closer and the cat’s not having it. She skirts back with another hiss, but the branch is too thin behind her. Her back foot misses its mark, and with a yowl she slips off the branch.

The hero and the villain yelp in tandem. The hero’s too far away to catch her. The villain leaps in, blanket brandished like a shield, and Dusty flops into it like a furious sun sucked into a silky black hole.

The hero’s never been so happy to get out of a tree. By the time they’re on solid ground again the villain’s swaddled Dusty in the blanket, her face poking out of the top, clearly very comfortable in the villain’s arms.

She notices the hero approaching before the villain. She turns her gaze to them and, without a care for what just happened, gives them one last hiss.

The villain laughs. “She has her morals in line, at least.”

“She’s just like you.” The hero rolls their eyes in mock offence. “Though she’s too nice to you to be called Dusty.”

“Oh, she’s not Dusty technically,” the villain says matter-of-factly. “It’s short for Feather Duster.”

The hero blinks at them. They’re not convinced that’s any better.

“Because she’s so fluffy she looks like a feather duster,” the villain continues, “and because I need one to clean up after her. She gets fur everywhere.”

The hero finally finds the words to say. “Your cruelty knows no bounds.”

“I know.” The villain grins, nuzzling their nose into the top of Dusty’s head. No, the hero is not calling her Feather Duster. “But she loves me anyway.”

Clearly, from the way she’s purring like a train. “Evil loves company.”

The villain strokes her head for a moment before turning back to the hero with a look they don’t like. “I’ll be honest, [Hero],” they start slowly, “I’m not here next week, and I need a cat sitter to look after—“

“Absolutely not,” the hero cuts in. “This was enough of an experience.”

“Yeah, I suppose.” The villain pulls the blanket back for her face to show a little more. “She is cute though, isn’t she?”

The hero looks down at Dusty. She blinks back at them slowly, already half asleep in the villain’s arms. The hero really hates to admit it, but she is kind of cute. At least when she’s not screaming at them and threatening to rip them to shreds.

But the hero would rather die than give the villain an ego boost. They hold back a knowing smile, and says every pet owner's call to violence: “Nah.”

[artbyblastweave]

Finished up Batman Beyond today. As much as I liked it, one thing that did jump out at me over the course of the show was that Dana Tan was basically an unreconstructed instance of "The Superhero's Girlfriend-" a love interest who's present in the narrative mainly to create tension between the demands of the superhero lifestyle and the loved one who's in the dark, but who has very little agency or role in the story beyond that, indeed, very little else you can have them do if you want to preserve that. The episode in which I believe she got the most focus, she spent most of it running for her life from a Rat Guy through the sewers.

There's a post about Spider-Man doing the rounds, which posits that part of why Mary Jane won out over Spidey's other long-term love interests was that because she wasn't originally intended to win, she had room to develop traits and dynamics beyond "superhero's put-upon girlfriend-"in fact, she had to, in order to present a plausible temptation away from whoever Spidey was quote-unquote "supposed" to be dating. I'm not a comprehensive Spidey reader, so I'm not going to go to the mattress for that read until I've read some more- but I do think there's some meat to that dynamic in general because of this show. Melanie Walker only shows up in three episodes and already she's got a ridiculously tangled family dynamic thrown into the mix, torn loyalties, the need to keep her head above water financially no matter what other goals she has, a cool hoverboard. Max Gibson's got an actual give-and-take back-and-forth with Terry and Bruce, the added interesting complication that she's trying to prybar her way even further into the game than either of them want her to but it's not like they have a way to make her leave. Dana is.... pissed that Terry is spending so much time with Mr. Wayne. Again. I mean, she's got a job to do, she clocks in at the start of each episode and does it.

This sort of harkens back to Invincible, where a major tenet of the first quarter of the book was that for logistical and ethical reasons, a superhero's dating pool is realistically limited to other players of the game- other people deep enough in the cape lifestyle that they can keep up and relate. Otherwise, your partner is going to spend most of the relationship stuck on the outside looking in, and even if they're nominally okay with the situation it's going to suck. Arguably, Amber in the comic fell into the pit of visibly existing mainly to demonstrate this, reproducing the dynamic they were critiquing. The show did a lot of legwork trying to make her more of an actively agentic character, but when the entire point is that a character in her position would have extremely limited agency there's only so much you can do to patch that. Then Eve rolls in, and it turns out you can do the exact same relationship beats about chronic unavailability, lack of communication and the like, but with a partner who's equally capable of showing up to all the big set piece fights and gorily eviscerating people in her own unique ways- a character who's consistently around in the story for reasons other than that she's dating the hero. You don't have to pick!

This got longer than I thought it was going to be. I do want to round out by saying that this sort of aligns neatly with something else that I've noticed- namely that a lot of post-10s cartoons also appear to have noticed this, and either hang back from biting off more than they can chew by committing to a romance subplot for their leads, or if there is a romance subplot they really aggressively commit to making sure the love interest approaches deuteragonist status in terms of airtime and agency. Hell, Steven Universe left the exact status of Steven and Connie's relationship ambiguous, and it still had a lot to say about the civilian girlfriend freezeout trope. Again- date other players!

[leavemebetosleep]

Alright here's a short version of how I'd fix Bride of Discord. As a sort of mental editing exercise.

While not really a good fic for a lot of reasons, Bride of Discord actually has a lot of potential as a story. There's a lot of great imagery, and it has a lot of fic tropes I like and are fun to read. I actually would probably change less than some people would. (If your "rewrite" doesn't keep any of the original anything, it's not actually a rewrite babes)

It's just that a lot of stuff in it is maybe played from the wrong angle.

Also there's no saving the Applejack/Spike thing. That's just gross. I think you could keep a similar subplot, just change it so AJ's crushing on someone else. I like AppleDash, but RariJack would probably work the best here. Maybe in this version she's afraid to confess bc she thinks Rarity is straight since she's so femme.

As for the main couple, I think you could actually make the demanding a wife thing work, just have it play out differently.

Like, Discord is old. He spent a lot of time as a statue, and might not be up to date on modern society. Maybe instead of it being a VERY creepy request that screams "sex slavery" make his request explicitly a somewhat less creepy political marriage.

That was common back in his day, and he IS trying to make a peace treaty with Twilight. Being married to one of her people is a show of good faith, that she won't go back on her word, and he won't go back on his, as well as metaphorically uniting their kingdoms.

He doesn't care who it is, because he's not intending to fall in love with them. At best they're gonna be an extended house guest.

They can even point out that's dated and weird, but he can also counter he doesn't know how else to get a proper show of trust. He doesn't trust them with his own safety, but he does trust they won't go after one of their own.

That could also play into why he's so insistent they get married already. Fluttershy trying to avoid the marriage once she's in his kingdom makes it feel like he's being set up, and like the treaty is tenuous. Or maybe he's even suspicious that she's avoiding because the ponies don't plan to stick to their deal.

That could even factor int the climax, but I'll get there.*

Discord can be lonely, and he can still also be a little desperate for companionship, but I don't think that should be his reason for the marriage. Otherwise he could've just asked for a companion, not a wife. Plus, I feel like per-reformation Discord would be in denial about being lonely. I think he'd only start to realize how much he's been missing out on until AFTER he's gotten to know Flutters.

*So in the climax, Fluttershy declares she doesn't love him bc her friends are badgering her, and he gets creepy possessive and tries to hypnotize her and there's a fight and what-not.

Yeah, instead of that what if it's his paranoia that she's avoiding getting married because they plan to betray him coming to a head?

He hears Fluttershy say something to her friends that out of context sounds like they're going to blast him back into stone after all. So he's think she's a traitor who played him for a fool.

I'd nix the hypnotism, just have him and the six fight it out, and then he kicks everyone out before Fluttershy can explain because he's heartbroken and doesn't want anyone to see.

Lot of minor fixes I'd throw in too, cutting out plot threads that go nowhere. Less heteronormativity. Fixing a LOT of OOC-ness. A LOT.

Oh and I'd change Discord's backstory too. The Megamind rip off thing is meh, and I think Discord's a character you could do a lot more interesting things with that that.

As for Fluttershy, a huge problem I have with this fic is she lacks real agency. I want her to choose to go with Discord, not out of the weird sense of feeling she has to sacrifice herself. (It comes off, for lack of a better word, suicidal.)

Maybe instead, she chooses to go because despite her shyness, she's bold when it matters. She will stand up to him. She's not going to be afraid of him anymore. She's gonna tame him like every other wild animal she's had to deal with, and save her home in the process. She's going to come back. He can't keep her there if she really decided to leave.

Have her be the Fluttershy who tried and failed to use her stare on him.

Also, in the original I never at any point felt like she fell in love with him. Just that she gave up resisting his advances. She's always wary and hesitant to do anything with him. That's fine for the beginning of their relationship, but for this to be a good love story that has to change at some point.

Where's the moment she realizes she finds him a little attractive actually? He's weird looking, but he's so confident and funny and fun and that's really appealing. Where's the part where she's having fun and forgets she's a prisoner? Where's the real bonding? Setting boundaries?

Maybe she convinced Discord to let her friends visit, not because she's marrying him already, but because she convinces him to try to make other friends. And he does it, because he loves her already at this point. And she thinks if he and her friends could get along, they could work thing out. Maybe she was hoping things would go well so she could tell him she wanted to marry him after all.

Maybe she really did want her friends at her wedding, but also to be able to have her parents, her brother.

This last bit has nothing to do with the author's writing. This fic was originally written before the show ended, and we got a lot of lore afterwards she couldn't have known about. That's not her fault she couldn't see the future. But just for my sanity, I'd add in more cannon lore.

And uh. I guess that's all got with what I remember of it. Yeah.

[charismabee]

I like STP swap aus in theory but I find how I've seen people do them a little strange (not bad tho they're still cool n stuff and I like them very much)

Like they're just... making the princess bird shaped without actually examining what swapping the Shifting Mound and Long Quiet's role in the narrative would mean. (Not meant to be negative)

Let's take the Narrator for example. In Slay the Princess he wants to kill the Princess because he wants to stop death forever. But the Long Quiet isn't death, he's stillness, lack of change. This completely changes the Narrator's core motivation. It can work though. Maybe he's in a world that has stagnated, no change, no innovation. It feels like rot, so he decided he had to find a way to be rid of it. Or maybe some other explanation. This would change his core world view, what he might consider a good end, how he acts a bit, lots of things.

Speaking of the good end, that's definitely not going to be an eternity of stagnant bliss, we literally just killed the personanification of stagnation. You could think around that too. Remember I the stranger route when everything was happening at once and it was the same as nothing happening? Maybe that happens. Without stillness the Princess is met with a barrage of constant change and stimulation, everything happening at once. The Princess could realise it is Nothing as much as it is Everything and that gets her out of it.

The Long quiet would be interesting too, because he doesn't change, it isn't in his nature to. Instead, he fractures. Perhaps instead of finding his multitudes you are shattering him. Breaking off parts of him so he can see them from the outside and know them. Once enough pieces of him have been broken off he will shatter completely and finally be able to see all of him, would talons pick up his broken pieces, would wings made of textured nothingness wrap around them and embrace them tightly? Would he reside on a hill of squirming hands or bodies, lost in the centre of the shifting mound?

Perhaps without a need for agency, or someone to make a decision the Voices would just exist as their own thing. First one that claims to be a Hero, who claims to have agency in their story (a part of reflected in her, the Long Quiet does not need to shatter to be able to see him), quickly joined by a Paranoid and terrified victim, an Opportunist Scammer, a Stubborn opponent. Different, but not changed. Not the one person molded into another.

Even the construct itself would be changed by who it is created to kill. Perhaps when the Princess first arrives on the path in the woods it is autumn, a sign of the seasons changing, there is life and death and nature and cycles, but on that 3rd Chapter, it is summer. The leaves are green and waxy, everything is preserved in a completely silent stillness. Maybe there is a horror in that no matter how you get there those silent woods are always the same, unchanging.

Unlike the Long Quiet, the Shifting Mound does change. She is naturally malleable. She has no need for voices because whatever action you take becomes what she would have always done. Perhaps her body changes, giving her new advantages, the body of a vicious Beast stalks towards the cabin, hunger tinting your choices through a cabin twisted to suit her needs. A goddess glides towards her temple, willing it to be large enough to fit her. A dainty Princess hurries to find her Prince charming in a fairytale cabin. The land twists under her will, whether she realises that or not, only giving resistance when too close to the 'monster' kept down there. She is change, it is only natural she causes it.

Even stuff like how to get rid of him would change, because can you actually kill the absence of something? The natural state of things before they shift? The shifting mound is motion and for everything to be in motion all the time means nothing can ever really happen at all. There is no fulfilment in anything you do if your opinion on what to do changes every moment you exist. Perhaps to truly 'kill' him she needs to make him smaller, change what cannot be changed to make the stillness that will be broken, the things to be changed. Perhaps he will break them out of there and thank her. Perhaps without a way to know himself he slowly fades into a nothingness, trapped in an eternity of stagnation that change herself refused to save him from.

It is still a love story, he is naturally inclined to help her, she will always love him, but things have changed.

Anyway this is just a dumb little ramble because I was thinking and it's nearly 3am so this is probably nonsense anyway. I do really like swap ideas they're interesting and stuff <3

[ezlo-x]

NO LET’S TALK ABOUT IT BECAUSE i’m willing to come to botw defense in some cases because i feel that there’s some strong substance there but totk?! did me so dirty, i must be truthful. did me so dirty and left a lame smell behind it.

botw:

zelda characterization is actually something i love about this game; while she isn’t always the strongest/most depthful persona, the fact that her lack of agency and empowerment in that story is actually focused on as the central struggle is a great way to have the typical damsel-in-distress formula while not compromising the characterization of a main character. link’s memories of zelda are the sharpest evidence we get into how hyrule suffered from the calamity, both before and after it passed—we only learn about how hyrule has suffered in the scars of the calamity and the echoes of a dead kingdom, but zelda’s cutscenes turn that suffering into a personification. zelda’s struggle with unlocking her power was relatable, touching, and substantial, and the way the memories end up culminating to her sacrifice makes for an excellent and heavy-feeling conflict. her character is central to botw, and i only wish that they had characterized her much further, so that she had more of an arc in the past, and so that the time we see her would be more valuable.

mipha was done DIRTY. princess of a realm, successor to the king, skilled aquatic warrior, and pilot of a divine beast, and all we get of her is that she has feelings for link? NINTENDO. make it make sense for me, i beg of you. while there’s nothing necessarily wrong with only depicting her feelings for link, it does not really inform us to her character (because link is mostly more static and ambiguously characterized in relation to others), and fails to actually make the tragedy of her defeat feel substantial. still, the details of her character are fun, and the character traits we have of her are good material—it is such a shame that it wasn’t used properly.

urbosa is obviously is a very likeable character, and ostensibly the wisest of the champions. she’s a strong-woman in a sense, but but that characterization isn’t reductive to her persona. her role as a chieftain isn’t very thorough, but nor is daruk’s, so i wouldn’t necessarily attribute that fact to a misogynistic approach. the misogyny (and exoticism??) in the characterization of the gerudo kinda plagues every part of the story/every location that involves them (for example, how most wandering gerudo are on the search for a voe, which is an amusing gag, but not all that funny when we don’t have much else of gerudo culture, or a good sense of their society, in comparison to say, the zora. the rito don’t have it all that well either, to be fair). urbosa’s characterization as a fierce warrior and wise leader isn’t done badly, but it’s very one note, which is disappointing to say the least.

i have conflicting feelings on riju. she’s the young ruler of the gerudo, but it feels as though there’s not much else to her. the moments where her youth shines through (like the stuffed animals in her room, and the fact that the lightning helmet is too big for her) are very endearing, but we don’t really get a sense of how she struggles as a leader, or of how her history informs her person. she’s gerudo, and a later successor to urbosa, so she also exemplifies the same strong and wise traits, which isn’t a very honorable persona to the facts of her character. it is a shame that riju isn’t given as much depth as her character implies, especially when the timeline of the gerudo desert/vah naboris quest is so strong, and when it seems like she has so much potential substance that goes unrealized for the rest of the game.

impa plays the village sage, and is very fun in that role, but there isn’t much more to her than relaying the story of the calamity and offering short comments to things memory or sheikah related

of course, there are other female characters in botw, but none of them star (or enjoy cutscenes) like everyone mentioned above.

totk:

the characterization of zelda in this game is just… ruinous. calamitous, if you will. that person you met in the last game is dead and gone, and the zelda in her stead is heartbreakingly inactive in this story.her sacrifice to bring the mastersword to the present was so strong, and while i hate that it’s essentially a repeat of the damsel-in-distress setup from the last game, it’s technically a different type of conflict, one which i normally imagine wold set her up to take an active character role, but she is so very upsettingly passive in this story, just constantly in the backseat. not a single action of hers (apart from the eating-the-secret-stone bit) impacts the events of the past, which wouldn’t be so bad if she didn’t have the power/knowledge to do so, but she does! her knowledge of the calamity, of the cave paintings, of the incident that brought her to the past are all pieces of information that should have impacted the events of the past! and the fact that they don’t is more than mischaracterization, it’s just a gaping plot convenience. it’s already dismaying to see her characterization from the last game discarded, but the fact that she isn’t recharacterized anywhere near to the same depth or complexity as the last game is just. a source of apathy, as a zelda fan. the events of the past do not expand on her much at all, but nor do they expand much on ruaru or ganondorf or sonia, nor anything related to the zonai, which is kind of a recurring thing in this game.

sonia was fridged, one and done. kind and caring mother character killed off for an emotional payoff. in almost every cutscene of sonia, she is consoling or caring for zelda, so that when ganondorf kills her, the moment carries emotional weight. her only role in the story is to be a tragic loss, and not in any poetic way, but in the storytelling 101 way. she’s quite depthless, and while her persona and design are quite likable, her characterization is undoubtedly poor.

mineru… doesn’t get enough time in the story. every aspect of her character is defined in relation to the conflict with ganondorf (besides being smart/techy), which is a conflict she doesn’t really have any personal stake in, besides her relation to ruaru. this wouldn’t really be a problem if we were given any insight into the relationship between the two of them, but we aren’t given much of anything. at all. so the fact that she’s a zonai and ruaru’s sister is doing a lot of the heavy lifting to sustain our belief in her personal investment and motivation in this conflict, which simply doesn’t make for a good story. her cutscenes outside of the past really isn’t all that different to the other sages, and the sages are so characterless that they don’t even have names.

purah being redesigned the way she is feels like… a choice by the developers. she has about as much of an active role in the story as impa did in the last game, so her actual characterization isn’t necessarily all that important, since she doesn’t feature much. nevertheless, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth that the essential leader of the effort to redevelop hyrule is given less characterization/character conflict than many npcs in that same location, not to mention in the whole game. the fact that she’s redesigned to be older and… modelesque feels less like a development of her character and more of like a cheap ploy by the developers to put a baddie on the opening of the game to appeal to the demographics of gaming who have, well, a typically misogynistic view of women (and their roles in stories), to say the least of it.

i haven’t actually finished totk and i haven’t seen riju’s arc firsthand, so i don’t know enough about her new character to reflect on it.

i don’t know if you can tell but. i don’t like the story of this game. i’m not saying there aren’t things to like (definitely a super cool gaming experience! even just the story itself, good king ruaru defeats bad king ganondorf is a successful trope), but i feel like the story is just incoherent. characters aren’t really given reasons, motivations, or interest for acting the way they do (at least, in any way that implies that these characters are multitudinous or complex), or they’re taking reactive roles to the events of the story. the main conflict of the story is how ganondorf is threatening hyrule, but we see nothing of his motivations, nothing of how his actions impact ruaru beyond separating him from sonia (what of his kingdom? the livelihood of his subjects? the history of the zonai?), nothing of how it impacts zelda (the most we get from her is her reacting to sonia dying and her sacrifice to become the light dragon. so. three cutscenes), and nothing of how it impacts link. the events of the present are entirely disconnected from the conflict of the past, and it doesn’t do justice by a single one of its characters.

i should have probably just made this my own post, it’s waaaay too long, but i had to. let it out.

yknow in animal crossing when you're fishing and you catch a big fish like a whale and one of the quotes says "THAR SHE BLOWS!!" feeling like I caught a big fish rn. This has to be one of my longest asks I've gotten!!

I REALLY DONT GOT MUCH TO SAY CAUSE YOU HAVE SAID IT ALL except for the TotK Riju part! If I recall correctly her arc is that she wants to master her skill in summoning lightning, after that she kinda plays as Urbosa 2 or the "wise one" of the group. Someone can correct me abt that but she pretty much gave me those vibes, but I can't really go off w botw cause we really don't know much abt her personality wise! So in TotK she's grown...and that's pretty much it

[melrosing]

I actually hadn’t seen that quote and now I know it exists I don’t know how the limits of redemption discourse still goes on ☠️ George has literally given spoilers to get people to understand

I don’t even consider it spoilers tbh lol because I think it is just quite obvious that Jaime’s arc is a redemption arc and GRRM doesn’t have any idea how many people online are trying to argue otherwise for the sake of being contrarian.

Like we understand that one of Sansa’s key arcs is about empowerment, i.e. we see her disempowered and lacking agency, but know from the general trajectory of her story so far that through her trials she will grow into a more active and empowered character. One of Arya’s key themes is identity, so we know that whilst she’s cycling through various different names and faces, this is all building towards her becoming Arya Stark once again.

And we know this because we know how stories work!!! doesn’t mean we can say exactly how these things will happen or that these are the only themes in their story, but knowing how arcs work is just basic media literacy.

So when people come out with these limp takes about Jaime’s arc as one of failed redemption/that his arc isn’t about redemption in the first place and wait for applause….. idk I just have to cringe.

bc it’s always backed with these sad little notions about ‘Jaime saving Brienne from a bear because she reminds him of himself and he’s that self obsessed’ or ‘Jaime saved KL to save his own skin’ or ‘Jaime sent Brienne to look for Sansa bc he couldn’t be bothered’ or ‘Jaime’s actions at Riverrun show that he’s just a Tywin wannabe’.

Sorry but this is just such a sad fucking way to read a book lol. Like. you must KNOW that that’s not what these scenes mean?? you must know that GRRM, who himself hates nihilism and says he believes in redemption, is not someone who would waste his fucking time writing a story about a character who starts out shit, does a handful of accidentally/selfishly good things, then decides he can’t be bothered anymore and dies. like is that really the story you want to see?? be honest lmao

I’ve said before I think that apart from the people who really can’t get their heads around the idea that redemption is even a theme here (and as for them…. what can you even say lol), the rest is just bad faith reading from ppl who are desperate to prove they weren’t taken in by Jaime Lannister and his charms, and want to shit on ‘the fangirls’ whilst they imagine themselves nodding sagely when he, inevitably, capsizes as a character in the next book. like for sure. Jaime, after abandoning his army to follow Brienne into the woods in hopes of saving Sansa, will meet LSH and decide he can’t be arsed w redemption and so will promptly go running back to KL to commit some kind of mutual suicide with Cersei because ofc, that relationship has to be as static as the rest of his character, as they see it.

I mean sorry but how am I meant to take that shit seriously lol it’s just not how stories function. that’s not subversive that’s just bad