#shan is extra again

[geoviki]

Mo Guan Shan’s Big Feelings

Mo Guan Shan, resident tsundere of 19 Days, pretends to be tough and hard-hearted.  But he’s easily and frequently reduced to tears, as we soon realize.  In fact, he cries so often in the story that this post is pretty massive.

MGS cries as a child, of course.  He’s in a clinic in his mom’s arms when She Li first becomes obsessed with him (ch 294).

MGS has a bad dream about the day his dad told little Guan Shan he couldn’t come to the school’s robot fair (ch 392).

MGS cries in other dreams too.  Soon after meeting He Tian, he has a sensual dream of being comforted in He Tian’s arms after being bullied.  Look closely – there are little tears falling as He Tian assures him he’s the “most invincible badass.��� (ch 250)

True to form, he cries in the Santa fantasy extra when his house is destroyed (ch 345).

MGS cries when he’s frustrated, like in this episode after the play when he can’t untie himself to pee (ch 359).

MGS is a weepy drunk as well.  After accidentally destroying Brother Qiu’s bike (ch 427), he drunkenly sobs in bed as he vows to somehow repay him. 

Later, while MGS is still drunk, He Tian slips and falls while carrying him, ripping Mo’s pants in front of He Cheng (ch 429).  MGS cries from embarrassment.

Unsurprisingly, MGS cries over his dad.  After He Tian unknowingly brings him to dinner at what is probably his father’s former restaurant, we see a young MGS in flashback crying in fear at the chaos around him.  Present-day MGS flees and He Tian finds him crying in the parking lot (ch 217)

One of the more moving chapters shows MGS breaking down as he visits his father in prison for the first time (ch 240).

MGS cries from sheer anger in several chapters.  The earliest is when He Tian forces an unwanted kiss on him as a misplayed joke (ch 174-175).  He Tian is taken aback by Mo’s strong, tearful reaction.  It’s probably the first time someone doesn’t try to placate He Tian when he’s being a jerk, and he begins to take MGS more seriously after this.

MGS tries to end his friendship with He Tian after the school play that indirectly causes him to lose his meager job.  He Tian doesn’t help matters by waving money at him as they quarrel.  MGS weeps with anger and says, “Standing with you makes me feel like a failure.”  (ch 364)

He cries in anger once more as he watches incredulously as She Li incinerates his backpack (ch 368).  (She Li seems to walk around carrying gasoline like it’s no big deal – what’s up with that?)

MGS cries when he’s worried.  When he digs frantically through the mudslide during their ill-fated mountain hike, he thinks He Tian has been buried alive.  When He Tian calls out, MGS throws his teary self into He Tian’s arms (ch 329).

MGS’s worry is clear when the last violent fight with She Li is finally over and He Tian has won (ch 408).  The battle was so fierce that by the end He Tian is crying too, and soon they’re embracing (I sense a pattern here!)

MGS often cries when his emotions overwhelm him.  Early on, after MGS is rescued from the fiasco of agreeing to take the blame for a serious crime, He Tian tells him, “Don’t try to shoulder everything yourself.” (ch 188).  MGS tears up at the thought that someone like He Tian has his back.

MGS ends up full-on sobbing in He Tian’s arms (again) when he finally admits why She Li has a hold over him: because of the homeless man who tried to kill him (ch 319).

In one of the most traumatic scenes (and a personal favorite), both guys shed a lot of tears when He Tian finds him after She Li has tortured and burned him (ch 369-370).  These chapters mark a turning point in their relationship from friends to more.

MGS is shown when he’s happy only once, and that memorable event will happen in their future: that Christmas night when He Tian returns and proposes with matching rings (ch 412).  Cue the waterworks!

Thanks to all of the translators who provide the English versions of the story!

[starcrossed591]

CDrama Year in Review 2023

I'm still very much a CDrama beginner--I just started watching them in the summer of 2022--but since this is the first year I got into them in earnest, I figured I might as well do a year in review a la @dangermousie (whose lists I have found incredibly helpful in deciding which CDramas I really, really need to go back and watch as part of my CDrama education--so thank you!). So, without further adieu, here is my ranking of 2023 CDramas, in order of least enjoyed to most enjoyed*.

(See also: KDrama Year in Review 2023)

*Disclaimer: *not* a measure of objective quality

10. Royal Rumours: This drama was not great? Meng Zi Yi and Jeremy Tsui were fun, but the story started out messy and got messier. For some reason I still finished it, I think because I had a lingering cold and it was all my brain could handle at the time *shrug*

9. Gone with the Rain: I actually really enjoyed this one! The pacing was inconsistent, but Zhang Nan was fun as the irreverent Mo Xi, and we love a grizzled general. Special shout to the teacher who was not actually evil, just a sad lesbian whose gf disappeared on her

8. Love You Seven Times: Intriguing concept, not a strong enough FL to carry it through. The reincarnation stuff really worked for me at first, especially in their first mortal tribulation (as people, not CGI animals), but I got tired of it pretty quickly. I admit, the gifs of Ding Yu Xi as a sexy cat demon *did* pull me back in, but not enough for me to actually finish the thing, alas

7. Destined/Chang Feng Du: Started out really strong, and then stalled out on me. I think I only got up to about episode 22 or so, after their epic desert crossing and new start in a new state--they lost all narrative momentum for me there. I stopped watching and then just...didn't start again. I do, however, remain a big Bai Jing Ting fan, and will be keeping on eye out for whatever he does next

6. Hidden Love: (Contemporary) Age gap romances are hit or miss for me, but Zhao Lu Si absolutely stole/carried the show for me in this one. Although more fun imo when the main couple are in the the will-they-won't-they phase than in the family melodrama after they get together, still the only contemporary CDrama to get me to give it a go this year--and I'm glad I did

5. My Journey to You: Featuring my favorite murder girlies Esther Yu as Yun Wei Shan and Lu Yu Xiao as Shanguan Qian! Gorgeous costumes and sets, sweeping cinematography, and plot that kept me on the edge of my seat. Full disclosure, I have not actually watched the last two episodes because I got busy and then saw weird chatter about them, so I have no comment on the allegedly weird ending

4. Till the End of the Moon: Look, I know the ending wasn't ideal, but for the majority of its run, this drama owned my entire soul. It also introduced me to Bai Lu as Li Su Su, who inspired my first actual tumblr post (that wasn't a reblog) because I was so obsessed with her. And everyone knows that Tantai Jin is the CDrama ML of the year. 10/10, no regrets at letting it take over my life (and the OST my Spotify) from April to May of this year

3. The Story of Kunning Palace: More Bai Lu is always a good thing, and she's extra fun here as the transmigrated former evil empress and totally-over-your-nonsense Xiang Xue Ning here. The reverse haremness of it all totally shows why Bai Lu is the chemistry queen, especially with the princess (Liu Xie Ning) and cranky, morally grey, would-fail-gym-class strategist Xie Wie (Zhang Ling He). So glad this drama made it out of the CDrama vault and didn't languish indefinitely in censorship hell

2. A Journey to Love: Finished this one two days ago as of this writing and am still not normal about it. Ren Ruyi (Liu Shi Shi) and Ning Yuan Zhou (Liu Yu Ning) lead an exceptionally strong ensemble cast in this wuxia that explores the complicated relationships between love, duty, loyalty, loneliness, and companionship. Ruyi and Yuan Zhou are far and away one of my fave OTPs of the year, but just as compelling are the relationships between friends/brothers/fellow assassins Yu Shisan, Yuan Lu (ugh my heart), Qian Zhou, and Sun Lang. This drama definitely has one of the strongest ensemble casts of the year. And the character growth of Yang Ying from little princess abandoned in the cold palace to who she becomes by the end will stick with me for a long time. Plus another 10/10 OST!

1. Lost You Forever S1: I'm not normally a reverse harem girl, but the longing, loss, and hard resolve portrayed to perfection by Yang Zi as Xiao Yao really did it for me here. This whole drama struck an emotional chord for me, and where TTEOTM consumed my soul, LYF took over my heart. Xiao Yao's relationships with her power hungry, overprotective cousin Cang Xuan; hot snake demon Xiang Liu/playboy archery shufu Feng Feng Bei; and perfectly devoted Tushan Jing are all equally compelling to me, and while I may know who she ends up with in the end, who I *think* she should be with changes based on who's on screen at any given time. And A'Nian, my favorite bratty princess who really just needs some strong parenting, holds a special place in my heart. I know we may never get S2, and even if we do, censorship means it probably won't be what the drama makers are capable of, but I'm so glad for this little piece of absolute perfection. And, again, a top notch OST!

Fave Drama: Lost You Forever, by just a hair over A Journey to Love. See above.

Least Fave Drama: Royal Rumours--truly why did I finish this, what was past me thinking

Biggest Disappointment: 2023 is also the year I read Dreamer in the Spring Boudoir, my very first CNovel! But then I didn't even bother checking out its adaptation, Romance of a Twin Flower, because it got rid of everything that made the novel such an addicting read, including a brilliant, strategic, ice cold FL and an ML who actually kind of sucked at the beginning, only to grow on you very, very slowly over time. I'm grateful that the chatter around the drama is what brought the novel to my attention, but other than that, hard pass.

Favorite Male Character: Lots of good ones this year, but I'm gonna go with Cang Xuan (Zhang Wan Yi) from Lost You Forever. The conflict he faces between getting enough power to protect the people he loves the most and that power making him incompatible with those loved ones is so compelling, and his yearning for Xiao Yao even when she's right in front of him is wrenching. Full disclosure, I also just really love the sound of his voice

Favorite Female Character: This could easily have gone to Li Susu (TTEOTM), Xiao Yao (LYF), or Ren Ruyi (AJTL), but I'm gonna go with Bai Lu's Xiang Xue Ning in The Story of Kunning Palace. Something I really loved about this character was just how jaded Xue Ning really was, even in her second go round at life. Yeah, she wants to make amends for the harm done in her previous rise to power, but that has hardly turned her into a good--or even pleasant--person. Instead, she's incredibly skeptical and still plays most things ice cold, especially with her family. As a bonus, we got plenty of Bai Lu's fantastic side eye as she basically had to do high school all over again when she gets called into the palace despite her very best efforts not to be.

Favorite Ship: Ren Ruyi and Yuan Zhao from A Journey to Love have got to be it. They balance each other out so well, and over the course of the drama, learn to communicate effectively with each other whenever they have a problem. They also recognize that not all problems can be solved by ~love~, which makes their relationship even more compelling when they decide to prioritize each other in a way that respects what the other wants from life.

Favorite Secondary Ship: Little princess Yang Ying and Yuan Lu absolutely broke stole my heart in A Journey to Love. Doomed love even more than the main OTP, these two's youthful romance was such much fun to watch, especially as they egged their respective mentors on in their own romance. Yang Ying's recognition that her first love did not have to be her only love is also something I always love to see, even as it broke my heart that (spoiler) she and Yuan Lu never really had a chance at an HEA. Their relationship really exemplified a key theme of this drama: that you should love the people you love while they're still with you because tomorrow is never promised.

Non-2023 Dramas that I Watched: Two non-2023 dramas I watched that deserve a special shout out are Love and Redemption and The Sword and the Brocade. Love and Redemption prepared me to really appreciate the big swings that Till the End of the Moon took, and The Sword and the Brocade went a little way to filling the Story of Ming Lan shaped hole in my heart. The Sword and the Brocade also had absolutely searing critique of the concubine system, even as it featured one of the most genuinely good-hearted FLs I've seen. Would recommend both!

Most Looking Forward To: Yes, I'm a sucker and the censors (not to mention the characters) will probably break my heart, but I'm still crossing my fingers that Lost You Forever S2 will live up to the promise of part one. See above: still a CDrama beginner, have not yet had all the optimism knocked out of me. Sue me.

[vxiphoid]

⟢ PASTRY EMPORIUM ━☆ {002.}

✑ twst boys with an s/o who enjoys cooking and what dishes they’d make! theres definitely some favoritism in here… ft. savanaclaw

PREVIOUS NEXT

LEONA KINGSCHOLAR

your dish is…

COFFEE CAKE !!

♫ APHRODITE - RINI

- you’ve served leona this once bc he was having a bad day and now he demands to make it again with him present. him? oh no, he’s not helping. he’ll watch you. ⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀ - leona has no cooking experience whatsoever, never touched a pot or pan in his life but you insist he helps you just a little bit for your aesthetics. he’s staring, hard, in confusion when you hand him a whisk and tell him to combine the eggs, oil, vanilla, and milk together. after a few seconds of staring at each other, you had to stifle a laugh, he looked so awkward…

- you would stand between him and the counter, guiding his hands to mix the ingredients. he was strangely enjoying this, it was domestic, romantic. mushy. but you looked so happy and your eyes sparkled with joy :(<3. also refuses to put the cake in the oven if you don’t agree to at least lay down with him while he naps. you can do whatever you want to do as long as you’re laying down. will never get over the first time you gave him coffee cake and he was weirdly energetic, was it the amount of sugar? you’ll never know.

- the one time he decides to send a letter home is to talk about the absolutely free cooking lessons he’s getting from a little herb’ he managed to rub off on. not that you’re dating him or anything, your just a lil’ herb that gives him kisses. sleeping in the same bed? banish the thought. actually, he’s made an extra coffee cake every time he makes them with you, extra sugar. when you ask, leona claims its nothing, simply made too much batter. he’s actually giving them to cheka, saying that its from you, no hesitation in giving his s/o credit in their amazing cooking.

- once leona improves in making his favorite dessert with you, his tail has a little content sway as he whisks everything together. will never let you mix anything now, he takes it before you can even try. the kitchen is always trashed while you both cook because it somehow turns into a war. both of you covered head to toe in flour and brown sugar. he’s definitely gotten more confident and languid in his cooking skills in such a short time period, you’re so proud :’)

“herbivore, you forgot the vanilla.”

“did you memorize the recipe, leo?”

“no. don’t forget the salt ‘nd i already set out the half cup of milk for you.”

JACK HOWL

your dish is…

BROWNED BUTTER PEAR CRISP !!

♫ BLOSSOM - T. SHAN

- jack has, many times, had to cook for his energetic little siblings so he’s pretty experienced in the kitchen. once he saw you happily feeding his siblings and he almost fainted, baby fever was through the roof. now he frequently cooks with you, with his siblings around most of the time. that day he got to see you in such a different light he needed to see it again even if that means hearing childish ewie’s in the background when he kisses you. ⠀ ⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀ ⠀ - he was already head over heels when you started bring him sliced pears while he works out so why not try cooking with you and seeing how you do certain things compared to him. jack most likely takes inspiration from making this snack with you.

- literally loves how you would see if his siblings approve of the dish before actually giving it to him like he wasn’t gonna love it anyway.

- he’s such a gentleman in the kitchen, taking over when you get tired, making sure you don’t burn or injure yourself, down to cleaning your hands when you get oatmeal on them :(. sometimes he would have trouble on the measurements of certain ingredients so you have to help him with that. his favorite part is topping his plate with the ice cream, may not be very healthy but manne who cares? he’s spending time with you <3

“hey, baby? how much brown sugar do i add to this?”

“a cup, jackie”

“i knew that then, i just hesitated��”

RUGGIE BUCCHI

your dish is…

S’MORE DONUT SANDWICH !!

♫ THAT I MISS YOU - VANSIRE

- ruggie is completely obvious when it comes to cooking. watched his grandma cook, like, once. willingly lets you teach him though, long as you get to hold his hands, you must thoroughly help him. ⠀ ⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀ ⠀ ⠀ ⠀ ⠀ ⠀ ⠀ ⠀ ⠀ ⠀ - genuinely surprised when you came up to him with a glorious plate of donuts. what are these for? free food? why? his birthday’s in april, its may🤨. you can literally see the cogs in his brain turning as his gaze flickers between you and the donuts. INSISTS you feed him a bite, and UGHH KISS THE CHEF. the most delicious thing he’s had in the past four months besides rlly good dandelion seeds, dare he say your donuts are slightly better than his gammy-gam’s😧😧.

- sly little bastard most definitely flirts with you n gets you all embarrassed so he can dip his finger in the bowl of the melted chocolate. he’s so patient though! you literally just stare at him focusing, does the little thing where his tongue sticks out from his mouth in concentration <3 the recipe doesnt call for whipped cream, but he loves whipped cream. please make little hearts on top of his donuts with whipped cream :(

- the type to absolutely become the most feral in the kitchen, energy, life, laughter, the fun never stops. he has the biggest potty mouth (twin) does not hold back. even when hes pouring the chocolate on the donut and the tiniest drop gets on the counter, its just “shit >:[“ he does stupid things and also learns new things from you everyday.

- this one time, you showed him that if you warm up a jumbo marshmallow, you could eat about three times more than the original size and he was like :O!! never eats marshmallows the same anymore. ruggie puts like four on a plate, they grow so big it sticks to the top of the microwave. still eats it though, tops it like it was a big gourmet meal, a win is a win‼️ fiwb!!!!😭😭

“no fuckin’ shot marshmallows grow in the microwave, they ain’t plants.”

“uh-huh! look at it!”

“HUUUH???”

[eyesofshan-if]

I'm not sure if it was intentional, but playing as a female Shan Commander and seeing that Taewoo had a female Shan slave sure felt like it had an extra layer of creepy...

you'll see her again 🤫

[jasminedragonart]

I don't want to get EXCITED excited yet but one of my favourite book series from when i was a kid is getting its own tv show/ maybe movie.

It's early days and it's not a renowned film company that's took it but I will still sign up to watch it when it comes out.

That being said I am now going to gush about this book series because this literally shaped my childhood.

I don't know what people's experience with young adult horror is but Darren Shan's Demonata series reshaped everything for me.

I remember being young, in secondary school (year 7 I think) and being invited to those free book fairs that they sometimes have. For some reason Wolf Island, the ninth book in the series was on the table. Now, I have always been interested in werewolves and vampires and everything supernatural, I literally spent all of my year nine years reading twilight on my morning and lunch breaks because it was twilight and that was the hype back then. So, naturally, when I saw that cover of a werewolf with a half man half wolf face I had to pick it up.

I read it in like a week, and it was... confusing. But I liked it. I really liked it.

Then I found out it was the ninth book in a series and I had that lightbulb moment that this was the reason I didn't understand half of what was going on. I set about buying the rest of the books and reading them.

My first read around I skipped the second and fourth books in the series. In my opinion even now when I go to read the series I always skip them because I'm more interested in Grub's story than I am theirs. That being said when I did read the second and fourth books I did enjoy them, they were fun and I thought that if they were maybe just like extras instead of actually joining into the main plot I would have probably read them after I finished reading the others and not avoided them the first read around.

Now, onto the good stuff.

So I, as an adult, have been putting off rereading the Demonata series because they are for younger readers and I was afraid they wouldn't hold up. This is slightly true and it's making me wary of reading the vampire series (which I also read as a child but didn't enjoy as much as this one.) My main issues with these books are how they're written. Darren Shan has a very interesting writing style that often feels like it's third person even if it's told from a first person perspective. His sentence structure is short and snappy and oftentimes will be the odd word that works in some parts but not in others.

It's not bad. But it does sometimes bother me when I'm reading. Again, this is because I'm older and reading this. For kids, this is great. It works and it makes the books easy to read. I literally finished the first and third book in like a day because of this.

Another gripe I have is that after the fifth book the series kind of goes down hill. It's fine. But, like the vampire series I don't think Darren Shan had a definitive end for these series and ended up cobbling something together to maybe satisfy whatever time frame he had been given to write these books in.

But, again, it's a fine series and the first, third and fifth books are amazing.

I don't want to get too into it because I don't want to spoil anything if you do want to go and read it. All I will say is that it is an extremely interesting take on the werewolf myth. Also, magic and demons and, it's so good and I'm very excited.

Also, if they even end up making another Cirque Du Freak movie I think that would be cool too. I did see the one they made but I think it would have worked better as a series than a movie. Too much happens to whittle it down to an hour and a half and also Darren is like 12.

But the Demonata series could easily be movies and I... if they made Slawter a movie I would actually scream from the meta take of it all.

[the-conversation-pod]

Tens and Chops, Vol. 1 (A Grab Bag Episode)

We gotta clear the decks ahead of the VIIB Awards, so it’s a grab bag episode! Ben, NiNi, and Shan talk a bunch of shows that we couldn’t NOT talk about, and award the fall’s Girl You Tried.

Grab a drink and a snack and join us for one of the most varied episodes we've had on the show.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Introduction 00:01:15 - Kiseki: Dear To Me 00:12:20 - Dangerous Romance 00:26:05 - Love In Translation 00:41:14 - I Cannot Reach You 00:54:43 - My Personal Weatherman 01:07:01 - If It's With You 01:15:38 - Absolute Zero 01:21:05 - My Dear Gangster Oppa 01:33:32 - Middleman's Love 01:49:07 - Final Thoughts, and Girl, You Tried

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Tens and Chops

Ben

And we're back! We've made it to the Grab Bag for this season of The Conversation. We've named this one “Tens and Chops: Volume 1.” I really hope we have a collection of these to do a smash cut off in the future.

NiNi

So looking forward to it. Definitely looking forward to it. Absolutely looking forward to it. I named it Volume 1 for a reason.

Ben

We have nine shows to talk about plus a bonus segment. Because there are nine shows to talk about, we have brought in help for this one. We have brought in our drama expert, Shan, who is with us again.

Shan

Hello people.

NiNi

Ah, that sweet, sweet smell of a great guest. I love it. Okay, all right, let's dive in, people.

Ben

All right. So, Shan, we're finally into the winter. Let's discuss the fall shows as an experience. As you know, I was grumpy as hell coming out of the summer through the fall with the state of BL. 

How are you feeling about all these various shows?

Shan

Your grumpiness was not unfounded. I don't think the fall season was particularly strong. We hit a slump. A lot of shows just flopped right at the end after strong starts, a lot of shows just didn't take off. There were some things that we were really excited about and then when we actually got to them it was…just so fucking disappointing. [laughs]

I think the strong start to the year and some of our expectations for these shows maybe set us up to be a little extra disappointed in how the season went.

Ben

Before we get into all of the shows individually, NiNi, for the sake of our audience, who may want to skip around this episode, please read the list of shows we're about to discuss.

NiNi

[clears throat] Don't mind if I do! So, in this episode we shall be discussing Kiseki: Dear To Me from Taiwan, Dangerous Romance from Thailand, Love In Translation also from Thailand, I Cannot Reach You from Japan, My Personal Weatherman also from Japan, If It's With You also from, you guessed it, Japan, Absolute Zero from Thailand, My Dear Gangsta Oppa from Thailand-ish, and Middleman's Love the most Thai thing I have seen. [laughs]

Ben

All right. So we're going to be here for a while. I hope you grabbed your drinks and a snack.

NiNi

Put us on pause. Go pee, come back. Or you could just take your phone to the bathroom. Whatever you're doing, I'm not judging you.

Ben

I am, don't worry.

[NiNi laughs]

00:04:20 - Kiseki: Dear To Me

NiNi

Alright, let's start with Kiseki. Ben, what is Kiseki about?

Ben

It's about how nothing was learned from HIStory 3: Make Our Days Count, and that once again I have been made to suffer for things I did not do. 

Kiseki: Dear to Me is a Taiwanese BL about a well-performing high school student late in his studies who gets wrapped up in the gang politics of his local area, falls in love with a gangster, and complications ensue? There's a side couple that's also a bunch of gangsters who end up stealing the show.

Shan

[laughs] I was going to say, I'm pretty sure this show is actually about Ai Di, but okay.

Ben

It is a Lin Pei Yu joint, and we were expecting so much more from her, and yet here we are talking about it in the Grab Bag.

NiNi

Mm-mm-mm. So, Shan, come on in here. Give me, like, a word or a short phrase—something pithy—for the audience.

Shan

Hmm… The pithy description of this show? “Chaotic, but in an awesome way.”

NiNi

Interesting…

Ben

I will agree with that. This show was fun as hell to watch when it wasn't enraging for me.

NiNi

[laughs] I don't know. I was watching it and literally losing the thread while I was watching it.

Shan

Your mistake was ever trying to grasp the thread in the first place.

NiNi

You right, you're right. I made a mistake. My bad. I shouldn't have tried. But—[laughs]—the show was clearly trying, so I thought I had to try, too. 

Listen, I often find Taiwanese shows hard to follow, personally, and I know that's a me thing. But it's something about where they choose to start and end their episodes, I think. I lose the thread.

Ben

I do agree with that. I don't think that, at least the BL tradition we've been exposed to, values episodic structure in a way that is recognizable to those of us who are probably grounded in the American sitcom tradition. A lot of their shows, we tend to remember as a whole, not as individual parts, and that did not work very well here. 

You were not the only person struggling from episode to episode remembering what the fuck was going on. I struggled as well. It was difficult watching this show because I didn't really know thematically what the show wanted to be about. While I really liked the work everyone did—I think all of the actors at every level were really dialed in and it was fun for some of the cameos. I will never return to this particular show because this show involves Wayne Song and Huang Chun Chih as gangsters who are rivals with the leads we care about. 

They have Wayne playing this super-violent, kind of out-of-control gang leader who has to die, and he does, and this is a bad choice because it's not like the rest of us fucking forgot about HIStory 3: Make Our Days Count, and then they released a special episode that is just, “By the way, Chun Chih's character was mooning after him the whole time and now he's sad.” Why? Why was this the choice? Have you not learned that we don't want you to kill these guys? Shit!

NiNi

I think definitely the cameos across the board lost me—A, because I don't watch that much Taiwanese BL, so a lot of it was like, “Wait, who's this guy? Who's this guy? Who's this guy? Why are they here? What are they doing?” I recognize a couple of faces from a couple of things, but mostly I was just confused.

Shan

This show was like 50% powered by cameos. That is what kept people excited week over week and talking about the show. Spotting the faces was really fun. 

So, NiNi, as the resident Taiwanese BL apologist around here, you are absolutely correct that it is often hard to follow the story. The writing is always the weakest point. What has always been my favorite thing about the shows we get from Taiwan is that there is a real connection, I think, between the physical stuff, the intimacy work, and the emotions of the characters, and they kind of really nail those relationship dynamics and that kind of character work. 

But the stories—the plots—have always been kind of a mess, even in my favorite Taiwanese BLs? And this one really took the cake. It was all over the place. I could not at any point in this show, find my footing in the plot, or what was supposed to be happening, or why I was supposed to care. 

That didn't really bother me because this is definitely a show that encourages you to just be along for the ride, and kind of react to scenes, and not worry too much about the overarching story. And that worked for me in this show enough that I had a good time. Would I say that it's good or well written? Absolutely not. [laughs] 

And Ben's complaints about the way that they used those actors from Make Our Days Count are absolutely valid. I kind of couldn't believe the audacity, putting Wayne Song in the show just to kill him off.

Ben

Audacity is the right call, bestie. Thank you very much.

Shan

Right, the audacity! Like, it was not a cool thing to do, and they shouldn’t have done it. So those criticisms are completely fair about this show.

NiNi

There are things about this that I absolutely liked. I did enjoy the couples. I enjoyed the unhinged-ness of them, but I couldn't follow their story, so I was just kind of vibing—which, totally my style. And when I was just vibing I was havin’ a good time. 

If I had to score Kiseki: Dear to Me. The couples are great, the story’s a mess. I'd give it a 6 ½.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

I gave it a 7.5, which was probably generous because I just had so much fun watching it, but I can't claim that it is structurally sound.

Ben

Shan, like the rest of MDL, rated this show with her coochie.

NiNi

That is staying in.

[all laugh]

Shan

What did you score it, Ben?

Ben

What do you think I scored it, bestie? 

Shan

I feel like you scored it real low, because you were pissed about Wayne Song. [laughs]

Ben

I was pissed.

NiNi

Ben was definitely offended, so it got a 5 or less.

Shan

Oh yeah, for sure.

Ben

What do you think I gave it?

Shan

3.

Ben

NiNi

5.

Ben

I gave it a 5. We're laughing a little bit, but legitimately that was so upsetting. And your show was stupid! There wasn't even a point to it. It was just shock, and it felt mean, like you're still salty with us about the HIStory franchise. You are not getting above a 5 from me, despite the fact that Louis Chang and Nat Chen were so much fun to watch, and how much I enjoyed the work between Taro Lin and Hsu Kai. I had a great time watching all four of these men and all the people who cameoed in this.

NiNi

Why do you think there was no Tang Yi and Shao Fei?

Ben

Because there's a cash grab for doing HIStory 6: Freed.

Shan

I want HIStory 6: Freed, and I want it fucking yesterday. Where is our show? [Ben laughs]

NiNi

Alright, so Ben gave it a 5. I gave it a 6.5. Shan gave it a very generous 7.5. Somebody do math.

Ben

That's a 6. 

Shan

You can call it a 6.

NiNi

It's a 6 for Kiseki: Dear to Me. Shoving it off, let's move on to the next one, which we are about to trash.

00:12:20 - Dangerous Romance

NiNi

Ben, tell the world about Dangerous Romance.

Shan

Oh, ho ho ho! Here we go!

Ben

Dangerous Romance—[sighs]—is about how a windmill… cannot be powered…without the wind.

[all break down for prolonged laughing fit]

NiNi

Please! I can’t stand your ass! 

Shan

Had to be done.

NiNi

Okay, bring it back, guys. Bring it back.

Ben

Dangerous Romance purports to be an inter class romance set in a high school between a very smart scholarship student who's super poor, because his parents are dead and it’s just him and his older brother, who's kind of irresponsible with money; and a rich kid who's kind of a pompous bully in school—has no valuable skills of any sort to bring to the table. The two of them crossed paths and are drawn to each other. There are things that happen in the show, I guess. Soccer is a big deal, at some point in this. There's very much a repeated High School Musical TROYYY bit that happens multiple times over three episodes.

[NiNi and Shan laugh]

NiNi

Oh, God, you shady bitch. Carry on.

Ben

It's trash. This show was fucking horrible. This show started out being so fucking interesting. There was the whole notion about Kanghan being just a stupid as hell bully, who only had money on his side, who was getting wrecked constantly by Sailom, this very smart, poor kid. 

And then after episode 2, it all went away, and it was about how Kanghan is a sad rich boy whose mom is dead. And so because his mom is dead, his dad just spoils him rotten, and he just wants his dad to treat him like a real boy, or whatever. I don't give a fuck. This show was so fucking trash. 

[NiNi laughs]

Shan, you're a fan of Shameless. Please explain to the people why this show was so offensive to you.

Shan

For the record, I think I dropped this show Week 4, because I was just so fucking pissed [laughs] about what they were doing with Sailom. 

A little background here: I grew up as a poor person—lived in poverty for like the first 20 years of my life. And I have always had a big interest in stories about class disparity, stories about surviving poverty, stories about families that get through those kinds of challenges because I lived it. And so I'm always very interested to see how it's depicted in fiction. So when the show started, I was so thrilled to finally see a Thai BL that seemed to be taking class disparity seriously? That seemed to want to explore what it actually means when a wealthy person and a poor person are kind of thrown together and have to figure out how to get on the same page across their differences. 

Sailom had some really serious shit set up for him. Him and his brother are in really hard times. They're in deep, deep debt. He's working multiple jobs to try to pay off this debt that they've inherited, and he has this fucking rich bitch bully on his ass, causing him problems, fucking with his jobs, fucking with his money, spreading rumors about him, costing him work! 

I think a lot of people who fell for this show maybe forgot—but I sure fucking didn't—that Kang spread rumors that Sailom was a fucking pedophile, and cost him all of his tutoring students. This is not minor shit that they set up at the beginning of this show to explain the adversarial relationship between these two characters. So I expected them to take it seriously. I expected this to be a serious narrative about how those two could get past those conflicts and come together in a romance—which obviously they were going to. But, that's not what we got at all. 

We didn't get a realistic look at what it means to be poor and to be living with a crushing debt that weighs you down every single day. We didn't get a realistic look at the dynamics between somebody who's grown up like Sailom with the experiences that he's had and the issues that he has to carry every single day, and how he might think about someone like Kang and how he might view him with disdain, and with resentment. We didn't get any of that. We didn't get a realistic look at how these two could come past the initial bullying and the initial things that Kang did to fuck with his life and his money. 

This is life-or-death stakes. They showed us that. Him and his brother are actually getting beat because of this debt on a regular basis. This is not a light issue. And so to set up all of that in the first two episodes, and then immediately pivot, by the third episode, to a bog-standard BL with these two just kind of flirtin’ with each other, and doing all the classic tropes, and Sailom apparently just fucking forgetting all the things that Kang did to him because of one isolated moment? 

None of it made any sense to me. I felt like they flipped a switch and changed Sailom's character from episode 2 to 3, and he never came back. I stopped watching the show in episode 4, but I continued to follow the discourse, so I know that the real Sailom never came back. 

I just don't understand what happened with this show. I don't understand how the same writers could have written those initial episodes and that set up and then carried out the show in the way that they did. I actually found it offensive. I am still pissed off about it! You can hear it in my voice, I'm sure! This was not a joke to me. I was very upset with what this show did. It's inexcusable.

Ben

Kill ‘em, bestie. [laughs]

NiNi

Murder them.

For me, the problem—the main problem with the show—was that the show was about Kanghan and it should have been about Sailom. That's really it in a nutshell. If the show was about Sailom, if it was about Sailom being the main character and you getting into Sailom’s head, and seeing Sailom’s life through Sailom’s eyes, and seeing how Sailom deals with his life, then that's the show that I wanted to see. 

You're talking about the serious shit that's going down. Kang literally shows up at Sailom’s house with a gun! Have we forgotten about this?

Ben

After his friend said, “Bruh, I think the whole gun thing is maybe going too far.”

NiNi

None of these characters are consistent. The characters that are set up in the beginning, the ones that you are interested in, the stories that you think, “Okay, this is what they're setting up.” None of that happens. Those characters vanish basically overnight. 

Saifah was set up to be this kind of charming, feckless older brother who can't be relied upon, but Sailom really loves him. He works with old people, and he kind of steals from them, and scams them a little bit. That's an interesting character. And then one day his debt collector sends a new guy, and the new guy is somebody he went to high school with. And I was like, “Well, this is about to be interesting!” [buzzer sound], I was wrong. No, it was not interesting.

Ben

It's really frustrating, because there's actually a fairly decent small plot in the middle of the show where Saifah has schemed his way into working for the same family. He's been dealing with a work related injury, and the grandma pays for some expensive European medicine for him. He doesn't realize this is for him, and he thinks about stealing it and replacing it with a generic. There’s a really interesting moment where he chooses not to steal from them and then learns that it was a gift intended for him, that is this really decent moment in the show which only further pisses me off. 

Every now and then, this show seemed to understand some of the complex dynamics it was about, and then went right back to fuckin’ it up for no reason.

Shan

I think NiNi is right that the main problem was that the show should have been Sailom’s show and instead they made it about Kanghan, and I don't know why they did that. The first two episodes were clearly rooted in Sailom’s story, and that's what really, I think, threw me.

Ben

Chimon is also the older, veteran actor. Why didn't they believe in him? Like, he could have carried this show. I do not know why they decided to lean on Perth. This is the second time this year they have tried to lean on Perth and it has not been a good choice.

NiNi

I think that Perth is a good actor but he needs a strong lead. He's a follow, but he's a good follow if he has a strong lead. Trying to put him in the lead position? He works best when he's pulling off of somebody.

Shan

Mhmm. If they had let Chimon anchor this, and him follow, I agree with you, NiNi.

NiNi

And then why did they even bother View and June? Why did they make them get out of bed?

Ben

Ohh, are we talking about the teacher-student line between View and June? I'm not.

Shan

I'm so glad I was already gone for that! Whew! I don't even want to know.

NiNi

It wasn't even a thing, though!

Ben

I'm not discussing it, I will not.

NiNi

Listen, honestly, the best parts of the show were, A, the first two episodes, B, everything that Euro did? Euro was great. I loved Euro.

Ben

Okay. I will say that. Let us not walk away from this without shouting out Euro. They do not give big boys a lot of love and respect in this field and, Euro. You did good work, sir. You should have been allowed to kiss—which of the twins was in this?

NiNi

I think it was JJ.

Ben

JJ! You should have been allowed to kiss JJ in this show!

NiNi

I also did not hate Marc and Pawin in this. They were not bad.

Ben

They were not good. [laughs]

NiNi

I didn't say they—I said I didn't hate them, and they were not bad.

Shan

Damning with faint praise indeed.

NiNi

And you know how I feel about Pawin!

Ben

The problem with this is, again, like the pieces were there. But, did you know that a windmill—[all laugh]—cannot function without the wind? If you're tired of this bit in the podcast, watch the show!

Shan

You can only imagine the horrors awaiting you.

Ben

There's a class difference between Kanghan—did you know his name means ‘windmill’?—anyway. 

And so there's a class difference between the two of them. And there's a class difference between Nawa, Pawin's character who's rich, and Guy, Marc's character who was poor. They're friends with the other leads. There was a real opportunity to tell a story about, how do these dynamics play out where people mix? There's an egalitarian aspect to all going to the same schooling system together, even if some of you are there by scholarship, or because your mom works for the place in the case of Euro's character Auto. Marc's character Guy, he's probably there on a football related scholarship because he's an athlete. 

Like there's an interesting thing to say here, but they did nothing with it. It is such a waste of all the goddamn talent on this show, and it was a waste of 12 weeks of my life. This show was bad. This show was offensive. And this show was stupid.

All right, ratings.

NiNi

I gave it a…5.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

Well, since I didn't actually finish the show, I didn't give it a formal rating, but y'all should know that it's, like, a 2 in my heart.

Ben

It is a 3 formally from me. I watched the whole fucking thing. It was shit and offensive. You get a 3 for that.

NiNi

So with 2, a 3, and a 5, I think that pulls you down towards the end of 3.5. 

Ben

Oh yeah, it's bad. 

NiNi

It's not good.

Ben

It's a 3. 

Shan

Do not watch it.

Ben

Unless you need to understand that windmills require the wind to function.

NiNi

[Laughs] Oh, no.

Ben

And let's talk about the fucking ending of this trash piece of shit. The tag of this show is these two characters engaged in sex work play where the poor kid is playing an escort who has to take care of his rich client. 

What the absolute fuck was this?

NiNi

I wanted to vomit.

Shan

I actually can't believe that happened. I saw it. I saw the GIFs on Tumblr, and I thought I was having a fucking hallucination or something.

NiNi

Sex work role play…Okay, anyway. So, on that note—

Ben

It's a chop!

Shan

Well that was a definite chop.

NiNi

Chop.

Ben

Three chops. [slams desk] It's over.

[NiNi laughs]

00:26:05 - Love In Translation

Ben 

On to the next show—oh, good, it finally gets better. [laughs]

Shan

This is a good one!

Ben

All right, great. 

NiNi 

The next show on the list, now that we've gotten that out of the way, is Love in Translation. Ben, what is Love in Translation about? 

Ben 

Love in Translation is a workplace BL in which two characters from different backgrounds come together to run a convenience store in Bangkok. One of them's name is Phumjai. He is a Thai national who comes from a seemingly well off family, who is obsessed with an idol named Tammy. He learns that Tammy is interested in picking up a potential partner in Thailand, but she wants that partner to be able to speak Mandarin and she would like for that character to also be an entrepreneur. Seeing that there's a chance here with Tammy, he decides he wants to formally learn Chinese and goes to a, like, small business association meeting or whatever, to see about starting something up. 

Meanwhile, we have Yang Yan Feng, who is a Chinese national who is here to open up a shop in a very specific point because of backstory reasons involving his dad, I guess. The two of these characters cross paths and don't end up liking each other at first, but circumstances come together, and the only Black character in Thai BL this year ends up connecting the two of them and they form a little shop together. Yang agrees to also teach Phumjai Mandarin and flirt with Tammy on his behalf. Very many hijinks ensue, but this show ended up being one of my favorites of the year. 

Shan, you ended up really enjoying this show. Tell us the things you liked about the show in the early weeks when we were deciding whether or not we needed to give ourselves La Pluie-level brainrot over it to convince people to watch it. 

Shan 

It ended up being really enjoyable. I was a little bit more skeptical going in than Ben. I'm not as inclined to sitcom style in BL as Ben is. Like, I think you kind of find it very comforting and familiar, whereas I kind of feel it's sometimes an awkward match of styles, and so I wasn't quite as convinced going in that I was gonna love it. But I enjoyed it a lot, and I think what I liked so much about this show is that, at its core, it's really just about kind people who are mostly just doing their best to be decent to each other and do right by each other. And they have misunderstandings. And there's a lot of comedy in those misunderstandings. There's silly stuff. There's fights, including physical fights that get pretty outrageous. There's characters making mistakes, but it feels like everybody's really well-intentioned and really earnestly trying their best. And I just think it's kind of impossible not to like a show like that. 

I also just really appreciated that this show—it had a good cast of characters. There was a lot of quirky folks. When I was watching it, I was reminded of shows like Superstore, where it's a little bit sitcom-y, you're in a store, you've got this big cast of personalities that you can kind of call on for comedy bits, as needed. And I thought it worked really, really well. 

And the romance between Phumjai and Yang, it was really nice. They just kinda liked each other once they got past their initial misunderstandings, and they got more comfortable with each other over time as they worked together on this project—on this store. They really got to know each other. 

Phumjai was fixated with this influencer Tammy originally, and he had a really natural progression away from that crush and toward developing feelings for Yang because of the authentic time that they were spending together and the real bond that they were building. And I always just find those kinds of romances really compelling. They're making something together, and that makes them want to be good to each other, and it makes them see the best in each other, and then become interested in each other. And I just think we don't get enough naturally building romances like that in the genre. 

Ben 

NiNi, since we successfully bullied you into watching this show, what did you think of it? 

[NiNi laughs]

NiNi 

It was deathly cute. I enjoyed every single minute of the show. I liked the internationalist perspective of it because you've got Odo and then one of the workers in the store, I think, is part Thai? And then Yang is Chinese, so there's some fun internationalist stuff happening in the show that you don't always see coming out of Thailand. Ngern was there. 

Ben 

Oh, are we talking about that now? For those of you who give a shit, who have been in the genre before 2gether the series, who were there before even SOTUS, Ngern Anupart, who played Earn in Love Sick the series, and also played the lead role in Waterboyy the movie, and was in a terrible Thai drama called Part Time this series, which we all attempted just for him. 

Shan 

Did you memorize that man's resume? 

Ben 

Of course.

NiNi 

He did. 

Ben

Ngern Anupart is back with us in BL, and he's swole now, girls. You should watch. 

[NiNi laughs]

Shan 

I will say, I'm a Love Sick girlie. I did love Earn, the character in that. I love Ngern, the actor. I was very happy to see him in this. His character was perhaps the most annoying in this show. [laughs] 

NiNi 

I loved it! 

Ben 

It was so funny that he was so annoying! I loved him in this! 

Shan 

He played Phumjai’s brother, Phojai, who was a classic overbearing older sibling who just could not let Phumjai have any space to live and learn and make mistakes. He just was so on top of him all the time and making him lose confidence in a way that I think was well-intentioned, but just extremely wrong-headed. Just getting in the way of his brother's success as he was constantly professing his intention to do the opposite. It was a really good storyline, to be clear, like it was really well done. 

NiNi 

It was really great and the other great part is that the whole time he's dating Phumjai’s good friend who also works at the store, and they're kinda working together to make the store a success in the background but they're doing it all wrong. Phojai and Tag are adorable together, but Phojai’s a little closeted. So it gets a little complicated. But overall, it ended up being real cute. There is a fantastic gag with some disguises that I swear to God was so hilarious. 

Ben 

Highlight of the year for me. [laughs]

NiNi 

This show was funny. It was sweet. It was… pretty hot, actually. 

Shan

Right! High heat.

Ben 

This show does comedy really well. The comedic timing of this show is so intentional. It was intentional when they were filming it, and it was intentional when they were editing it. It isn't perfect, but it's intentional and it lands really well. This show was so funny in the early episodes when it was leaning more into the sitcom bits. 

NiNi 

I found it funny all the way through, because I always find some of the humor in the pathos that comes later down the line. Like it was so funny when Phumjai and Yang went on the practice date because Phumjai is getting ready to go on this date with Tammy. And he's going on this practice date, and all he's thinking about on this practice date is, “What does Yang want to do?” 

So he shows up at the practice date with green bread, a baseball mitt, like. [laughs] That's like, so much going on, and I'm like looking at it like, “Oh, this is so sweet and so funny because of course he would bring a freaking baseball mitt because he thinks that Yang would have a good time. This is adorable.” 

And then the end, when Phojai gets kidnapped—follow us, girlies. Phojai gets kidnapped because Phumjai is paying off this debt—there's a little mafia shit going down in the end. But Phojai gets kidnapped for, like, months, and then when they finally pay off the kidnappers and they've released Phojai, you discover that Phojai has actually been kind of running the shit in the mafia for the last two months! [laughs] He’s become, like, a trusted lieutenant. 

Of course you took over, because you are an elder sibling. This is what you do. You got them organized. You made them respect you. I respect that as an elder sibling myself. I was just like, “That's exactly what I would do.” It was so funny. I enjoyed it entirely all the way through. I did not mind Daou’s wig. 

Shan 

Thank you! Can we talk about the wig? This is very important to me. 

[NiNi laughs]

Ben 

No, because first I have to get very serious about how good the show actually was. We will undercut the seriousness of which I will talk about how good the show was with you talking about how terrible Daou’s wig was. 

[NiNi laughs]

So, for those of you who listen to The Conversation podcast, you know that NiNi and I don't always see eye-to-eye when it comes to really huge power dynamic differentials between characters. This show is one of the very rare examples of a workplace set show where the workplace mattered and also the leads were equal to each other. One of the caveats of Thai economic politics is that foreigners cannot hold majority stake ownership in a Thai corporation. So despite Yang's wealth that he brings to the table and determination to open up a store in Thailand, he cannot have majority stake. 

Phumjai, who doesn't bring any money to the table, brings the fact that he is a Thai national to the table. So the two of them have equal ownership in the store—Phumjai slightly has more. We think Phumjai might be a bumbling idiot, but when asked to hire people because Yang, even though he has business sense, he doesn't know anyone. Phumjai actually hires competent people to help out in the store. Yeah, sure, he hired a bunch of femmes, but he hired really competent people to work in their store, and was actively engaged with trying to make the store successful. He was doing rapid iteration of various marketing strategies to try to get customers to engage with their store. He doesn't use the formal language that Yang does, but he is trying his best, and bringing even his own little money he has to try and make the store’s opening as successful as possible. 

His interest in Tammy is also grounded in something real. We thought he was just lusting after an idol, but he had had a weird meet-cute with her when she had visited Thailand as a tourist. She asked him just to show her around because she was a little bit lost, and he basically went on a date with Tammy when she first came to Thailand. So his crush on her wasn't grounded on just the persona she presents in her show as an idol. He had had a genuine interaction with her and connection with her. And when he finally approaches her properly, Tammy is also receptive to his advances. Sure, they get complicated by the fact that this is a BL and she's a girl—she can't win. But she also takes that in stride. She is a character that is not dismissed along the way despite being a girl in a BL. 

This show was legitimately so good at managing its character dynamics and how the characters played with each other. The growth between Yang and Phumjai together and personally was really well handled. This show struggles a little bit on the back end by getting a little bit silly with Yang's debt and the [sigh] mafia shit, but legitimately, this is one of the better shows that aired this year. 

Now let's talk about Daou's wig. 

Shan

Thank you! I've been holding it in so bravely. 

[NiNi laughs]

Shan 

Listen, listen! This is about respect. I need to pay respect to Daou, because that man had to wear this monstrosity of a bowl cut on his head. This horrible wig. The sideburns looked so fake. Every time you got a slight angle on the wig, you could tell that it was just a mop sitting on his head. Somehow he managed to deliver some of the hottest scenes of the entire year while he had that wig on his head. And you know, I just think that that deserves recognition. 

Ben 

Let's talk about the hottest scene of the year. 

[NiNi laughs] 

These people recognized that this was a show set in a convenience store—

Shan

Mmhmm.

Ben

—and they said, “Offroad and Daou,” and they were like, “Yeah, what's up?” “We need you guys to knock down these fucking shelves in this fucking convenience store, banging it out, because it's definitely a kink thing for Yang.” And they said, “Bet.” 

Shan 

In front of the security camera!

Ben 

Yang absolutely has that footage saved somewhere. 

Shan 

[laughs] 100% he does. 

Ben 

I had an absolute blast with this show. This was legitimately one of my favorite shows of the year. 

NiNi 

I must concur, and I actually scored it a 10. 

Ben 

Holy shit.

NiNi 

And the reason I scored it at 10 was that at the end they turned the store into a workers cooperative. So that gets 10 for me. 

Shan 

Bonus points from NiNi. [Shan and NiNi laugh]

Ben 

All right, Shan, let's give it the real drama rankings. 

Shan

I gave it an 8. I loved the show. I had a great time with it. Is undeniably messy, and the writing really went off the rails in the final couple episodes, and I can't pretend that that didn't happen. But I really loved it. 

Ben 

I gave the show an 8.5. The writing does unfortunately get a little bit messy towards the end. They didn't really know how to do the epilogue episode as cleanly as some of the more experienced teams do. But that's me being, like, fair from the drama ranking scale. In my heart, this show is a 9. 

[Ben and Shan laugh]

This show was really good! It was a lot of fun to watch. People should go watch this show. It's a lot of fun. 

NiNi 

I am calling producer privilege to give the show a 9 from The Conversation. 

Ben 

I'm okay with it. 

Shan 

I'm good with it. 

NiNi 

We have an accord. Love in Translation gets a 9 from The Conversation. Daou and Offroad, thank you so much. 

Ben 

If you are a fan of BL, but you say you've gotten burned out on all of the school-based stuff, this is probably one of the better workplace shows. 

But, at least you know, that a windmill… 

[all laugh]

All right!

NiNi 

Moving on.

00:41:14 - I Cannot Reach You

NiNi

Our next show—we have officially reached the Japanese portion.

Ben

Bangers Only section of this episode!

NiNi

The first show that we're going to talk about is an absolute banger: I Cannot Reach You. Ben, what is I Cannot Reach You about?

Ben

Oh, Shan gets this one. 

NiNi

Shan!

Ben

Oh yeah!

NiNi

What is I Cannot Reach You about?

Shan

I Cannot Reach You Is a friends-to-lovers BL about two childhood friends who are in high school together, one of whom is a long-suffering pining gay boy, and one who is kind of an oblivious little chaos muffin. These character types might sound familiar to you, they are very common in Japanese BL. But what makes this story feel a little different is that it really sets out to deal with the deep angst that really comes in when you take friends to lovers seriously. 

This is not a fluffy show, even though it is light throughout, they're really digging into the pain of being in love with your friend, the confusion of feeling your feelings for your friend start to change, the shock that can come along with it. Kakeru, who is the main character here, learns in episode one that his longtime best friend Yamato is in love with him, and this whole show is about his journey to accept and understand that, and then also figure out how he feels about it and how he might be open to their relationship changing. 

It is, bar none, the best friends-to-lovers drama that I've ever seen in the BL genre. It is one of my absolute favorites of the year and on a short list of perfect shows that we got this year in BL.

Ben

NiNi?

NiNi

Well, damn. I love this unreservedly. I have, seriously, no notes. Actually, I have one note and the note that I wrote—I'm just gonna read it verbatim: I Cannot Reach You, to all of Japan, “Hey, guys, I'd like to introduce you all to this wonderful concept called talking. Please look at this adorable story about how talking can make your life better, and even help you find love.” [laughs] And that's my only note on I Cannot Reach You. 

I agree with Shan. I think it's a perfect show. It's so cute. It's so deeply felt. It is so centrally angsty. It had me deep in my feelings in a way that I have not really felt since His - I Didn't Think I Would Fall in Love, which is another Japanese banger that I love. It's a great show, easy to catch up on. It's not very long. It is so perfect. It's perfectly balanced, perfectly paced, perfectly written, perfectly acted. I love it, unreservedly.

Ben

This was probably one of the best shows that I have ever watched in all of BL. Very few BLs actually properly capture the experience of being closeted as a kid in a way that is not triggering. I was closeted—we talked about this on the show. It sucks. Ohara Yamato was in love with his friend Ashiya Kakeru, and he did not make his attraction to Kakeru something that Kakeru had to deal with. It's other people, who are so irritated watching the two of them interact, who intervene and sort of force them to deal with this issue between them. 

But here's the big thing. We can yell all day long about how characters should talk to each other and all this other stuff, and how communication is really important in romance and all these sorts of things. This is very true, but the thing is: when you're queer and you know the consequences of being publicly queer in this horrible, racist, homophobic hellscape, you don't want to force that on your friend. That's the crux of friends-to-lovers angst that is so critical. 

Yamato really does love Kakeru, and he doesn't want to force Kakeru to deal with being queer. They don't say it directly, but that is a huge part of the hang up here. That is so perfectly captured in a way that is not triggering. It is so hard to be gay and alone when you're a teenager. There is a real complex restraint that grips you when you're 17 and gay and struggling, and in love with your best friend, where you don't want to be alone, and you really want to be with your friend. But being gay hurts, and you don't want to be responsible for inflicting that hurt on them, that I connected to directly in Yamato, that is portrayed so, so well by Maeda Kentaro. 

And this show doesn't just do the whole “I love you” thing and then they make out or whatever. Like, “I liked you the whole time!” We watch Kakeru deal with the reality that he has to reframe his own relationship with one of his closest childhood friends. And he ends up finding attraction in himself as well, and he goes through the difficult process of that. That is not a switch that turns on. It's like, “Oh, shit, I guess I'm gay now because your desire for me is so strong.” What this show gets correct is, when you have a friends-to-lovers story, there's the drama of, “This relationship is really important to me, and most romances fail. Do I want to lose one of my critical relationships that underpins my understanding of who I am as myself for booty?” The answer in a lot of cases is no. That's a scary threshold to cross—your bestie is not your partner. 

He considers what this means for their friendship and their relationship, and how there is a genuine need to respond to someone's feelings. That, even if he is your best friend, the way that he's felt like this about you for a long time means you can't just pretend that that wasn't there the whole time. Just because you were wrong about what you were perceiving in your friend doesn't mean you can just bottle it up and walk that shit back. It's so expertly handled in a way that is adorable. 

Like both of you describe the show as cute, and that's sort of the point. This show managed to make some of the most difficult things about coming of age and being queer kind of palatable, and adorable, and really interesting to engage with. And it's so well done, the way that these boys play out the complexities here. 

And then we get to Episode 6, and Shan will remember when Episode 6 aired, because I almost called her on her personal phone line after I finished Episode 6. 

[NiNi and Shan laugh]

Shan

He was like, “sound the alarm, holy shit!” [laughs]

[NiNi laughs]

Ben

I was like, “Shan, There's a BL emergency! Get home quick!”

Shan

I was waiting to watch it until we had all the episodes and he was like, “Nope, no more waiting! Get on it right now!”

Ben

Episode 6 is probably the best single episode of BL of the whole year. Kakeru has a lot of self doubt as part of his character—really well executed—and he expresses that he can't understand why Yamato might like him, and Yamato gets angry about this, and is like, “Don't you know what you're worth?” and he throws Kakeru on the bed and has this moment where he crosses the line with him. And you can see possibly years of restraint breaking, and he kind of scares Kakeru. When he gets his senses back, he scares himself and flees, and has this whole breakdown where he despairs about this. This is so perfectly executed because that's how it feels when you're in the closet and you make a mistake and reveal yourself.

Shan

What's wild is that, that's just the end scene of episode 6. Episode 6 does so much shit even before that. This is the episode where Kakeru and Yamato have this conversation on the roof, where Yamato confesses. At this point they both kind of know what's going on, but Yamato comes right out and says, “This is how I feel. This is what's going on.” And then he does the classic BL thing of immediately after confessing, he tries to walk away because he doesn't wanna stick around to be rejected. 

And, something amazing happens in that scene, which is that Kakeru is like, “Hey, bitch, get back over here! You gotta listen to what I have to say now. You don't get to just confess and then run away.” And I was, like, fist pumping when that happened because it was, first of all, just a brilliant subversion of a classic trope. And he says, “I wasn't gonna reject you. I am still kind of processing this. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet, but I want to think about it. You're important to me.” And I just love that. 

Like NiNi said earlier, “Wow, the power of talking to each other instead of just having your emotional outburst and then running away—actually trying to communicate.” And that's so much of what this show is about. The moments where these two characters are able to communicate with each other clearly and get their real feelings across, that is when they are able to make progress in their relationship, and there are lots of characters in the show who are reinforcing that along the way. 

Hosaka is probably the fan-favorite character. He's kind of the wise queer kid off to the side. He's got his little barrette in his hair. He's watching, he's perceiving, and he's really pushing—quite forcefully, actually [laughs]—the two lead characters to, like, talk to each other and get their shit together. 

My personal favorite side character is Yamato's sister: Mikoto. She is just this quiet presence who has always had her brother's number on this, and knows exactly what's going on, and really chooses her moments to show up and be a mirror to him of what she's seeing, what he's doing, and make him think, and even give him some courage. She even has a couple scenes where she does the same for Kakeru. She's a great sister character of a type that we don't get to see very much and I really appreciated her.

NiNi

This show’s a banger. There's no reason not to watch it. Watch the damn show.

Ben

This show also released the sexual tension in a way that J-BLs very rarely do, particularly not in this lane of J-BL.

Shan

And it did it beautifully. 

And I feel like we should talk a little bit about the visuals of this show. I'm not someone who normally even notices a lot of visual style. I’m a words person. I really am pretty dialogue-focused, and I don't usually notice a lot that's going on with the visual effects in the show, but this one used them so effectively that even I kind of keyed in.

Ben

So this show uses a bokeh effect, which is this thing where you play with the focus of the camera to make these blurry lights appear. This is very common in anime to show that a character is experiencing heightened emotion. Like the emotions are sparkling out of them, and the show color-coded the boys's visual effect to reflect when they were experiencing intense emotion. It’s very obvious to the audience when the moment turns for Kakeru. Yamato is bursting with emotion from the first goddamn episode, and when it starts to happen for Kakeru, we're finally—“Oh, finally, these bitches are both on the same page.” 

The other fun visual gag in the show is, very early on there’s this moment at, like, an arcade or whatever, where Yamato gets a stuffed animal for Kakeru, which is part of him thinking he wants to be with this girl. He ends up keeping the stuffed animal and the stuffed animal ends up becoming the audience stand in. So, like, whenever a moment happens between the boys, they cut to the stuffed animal whose arms they've moved to create a different expression—him either being, like, overwhelmed with kilig feelings about the boys being cute, or aghast feelings [laughs] about something untoward suddenly going on. It's a great running visual gag.

NiNi

This show is awesome. It gets at 10. What were you guys’ scores?

Shan

Perfect 10, baby!

Ben

For those of you who don't know, NiNi and I are far more loose with our 10s than Shan. Shan is a stingy bitch when it comes to 10s.

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan

Understatement. I have watched over 400 dramas. I have given out eleven 10s total, but this show is one of them.

Ben

I also gave this show a 10.

NiNi

Okay, so I Cannot Reach You gets a 10 from The Conversation and we are on to the next one.

00:54:43 - My Personal Weatherman

NiNi

The next show that we're going to talk about on this what is definitely going to be a monster episode is My Personal Weatherman. Who wants to take this one? Ben or Shan, who is telling us what My Personal Weatherman is about?

Shan

Ben’s definitely gotta do this one.

Ben

My Personal Weatherman is a very kinky BL where a local weather forecaster has a live-in boyfriend who is an erotic manga artist. They have a very Dom/sub, and they are not very good at talking to each other. They actually do say a lot to each other in this show. They just constantly misunderstand each other—very refreshing for Japan. Segasaki is the weatherman who provides for them. Yoh is the manga artist who is very much struggling. Yoh sees himself as kind of a slave—he doesn't really necessarily enjoy the sort of housewife role he's been placed into, and resents that they seem to only have sex when it [doesn’t] rains? 

He pretends like he doesn't want to have sex with Segasaki, but then he has a whole blow up because they end up in a sunny [rainy] season where it doesn't rain a lot and has a whole breakdown episode where he just masturbates furiously for a whole afternoon because they haven't had sex in a while. It's a very fun reveal that the reason why they don't have sex is because that's what Segasaki thought they needed to do, which has really good payoff in, like, the next episode or two later. 

This show was a little bit complicated to talk about and watch. This very obvious kink dynamics going on in this, but people who are more familiar with Japanese home dynamics say some of this is actually fairly normal for husband and wife dynamics. And the show ends a little bit abruptly, which is part of my consternation with it. I kind of liked a lot of what the show was doing. I unfortunately watch too much BTS stuff, and it was revealed that some of the things that were going on with Segasaki were kind of improvised by a Higuchi Kohei, who plays Segasaki, which I think muddles some of the messaging of the show. 

But before we get deeper into that sort of stuff, NiNi, I know I bullied you to watch the show, and Japanese BL is not always your forte—reactions and thoughts on this show?

NiNi

So you're right that they are communicating, they're just willfully misunderstanding each other. I found that incredibly frustrating. But I still like the show. I did. I did like the show. I think that the miscommunications that they're having, because they are talking and miscommunicating that way, I am less annoyed by the miscommunication. If they were just not talking, it would be like a completely different thing. 

And then I like the settings. I like the side characters. I like the main characters. I like that Yoh cannot cook and Segasaki loves to eat his food anyway. Yoh’s a terrible cook, like terrible, like— [laughs] it's so bad, and Segasaki literally eats everything that Yoh will make with a smile on his face because he loves him so much.

Shan

He ruined a curry. I don't even know how you do that.

Ben

That's really impressive. Curry’s so easy. His curry was crunchy! Gurl.

NiNi

I think the thing that I'm not sure comes across, but in your description of the show, is that they've been together for a while. This show stretches on a little bit. It shows how they ended up together?

Ben

One of the things we got clarification on is like their cohabitation is fairly recent. The offer was made when they were still students, but the cohabitation is recent.

Shan

Which we didn't find out until almost the end of the show.

NiNi

Segaki thinks that he's being clear with Yoh. Yoh, because of, I guess, self-esteem issues or whatever it is is completely misreading the very direct words I think that Segasaki is using, but Segasaki is also being direct, but not entirely clear. So it's not that it's easy to misunderstand, but you could see how misunderstandings could happen. Yoh is kind of withholding even if he's saying things. 

Segasaki is picking up a completely different kind of thing from what Yoh is saying, because he thinks that they're in a loving relationship, while Yoh thinks that they're in a weird master-servant dynamic. So, they're in a relationship. They're just, they're in two different relationships. And so they're talking past each other. 

Yoh doesn't understand why Segasaki won’t be certain affectionate ways with him, and the minute that it becomes that Yoh actually expresses that in a way that Segasaki understands, he completely changes the way that he behaves towards Yoh. And he does do that softness and affection and stuff with him because he didn't know that that was what Yoh wanted. He thought that what he was doing was what Yoh wanted. It's similar to how Yoh is reading Segasaki. 

I found it interesting. Frustrating, yes, I will not deny that I found it frustrating. But I found the way that they chose to deal with the miscommunication trope, which is a big trope that Japan uses—which is a lot of times why I have trouble with Japanese BL, because miscommunication frustrates the shit out of me—but I think that the way that it was used in this show was very clever, and I liked how they move past it. I think that how they moved past it was also very interesting. 

So yeah, I think the show was pretty good. I would score it highly.

Ben

Shan, thoughts on the show?

Shan

So [sigh], sometimes, in BL fandom, I think that we as an audience latch on to the idea of a show, and then kind of give a show credit for our idea of what it's doing instead of what it's actually doing. And this is one of those shows for me. It's not a fave. 

I liked a lot about the show—a lot of the things that NiNi just mentioned—I thought were interesting. Like, miscommunication trope is not my favorite, but it's hugely Japanese for cultural reasons, for language reasons, so I'm very used to it—and I've seen really good executions of it. This show, I feel, did not have the quality of writing that it needed to support the complexities of what it was trying to do with these characters. And that showed through a lot, there were a lot of cracks in this show. 

You kind of alluded to one earlier, Ben, about how there were—what I perceived while watching—there were some inconsistencies in characterization in Segasaki in particular. And we learned from the BTS that that actually probably was an actual inconsistency, because it wasn't in the writing, these differences in how he was appearing in these different time periods. It was something the actor was just trying out on his own, and they kind of just let him do that. 

There were lots of instances of dropped threads or missing context to understand the characters' reactions and things. I read some awesome gap filler, thoughts, explanations, and interpretations of what we could make of the characters behaving in certain ways. To use an old Internet term: that's called ‘fanwanking,’ and that is when the fans of a thing have to do a lot of extra work to figure it out and explain it because the show has not done that work itself. And that, for me, was kind of the bottom line with this show. It didn't do all of its work, and I think that a lot of us were so intrigued by the premise—were so into the visuals of the show, liked the pair, liked the characters enough, to fill in those gaps and still really enjoy it. But for me, the show didn't get to the level of quality that it was aspiring to, and it didn't quite work for me, in the end. 

On top of some of those gaps that I think were kind of there throughout the show. You said earlier, Ben, I think, that it ended abruptly. It's not just that it ended abruptly, it didn't finish its story. It felt very unfinished. To me it felt like an intentional grab for a season 2—a play to try to get the fans wanting more so that they could maybe get funding for a season 2? And hey, if that's what they're going for, power to them. I hope they get the money. I'd really like to see them finish the story. But, I would have liked more if they would have actually finished the story initially that they were trying to tell. This show for me, it tried some things. It was interesting. It was enjoyable to watch.

Ben

[laughs] She said, “Girl, you tried.”

Shan

It’s a little bit of a Girl, You Tried for me! I'm not gonna lie, it is!

Ben

Here's what I'll say. I don't think all of the pieces of the show work together as seamlessly as they wanted them to. However…I don't care. [laughs] 

I liked what the show is trying to do. I really liked the really messy relationship between them. I like that Drama Shower went with a show about two people who are trying to be together and failing miserably at it. I do like what the show was attempting to do. I find myself far more forgiving to the show because it was trying things that BL doesn't do very often. I also just really liked episode 4, where Man-san comes to their house.

Shan

Yes, let's talk about Man-san, best character in the show. [laughs]

Ben

It was one of my favorite moments of the year, the bit where she knocked at the door and Yoh panics, and Segasaki’s  like, “Oh so she’s here?” and he starts stretching. He's like, “Don’t worry.” Like he’s ready to fight this woman [NiNi laughs] who he believes that Yoh was having a secret romance with on the side, and then the door opens and—she's been a Segasaki stan for a while. And they have this really great comedic overlay of [laughs], “Oh my God. I'm at my idol's house.” And all he does is charm the shit out of her for the whole episode, and piss Yoh off because he thinks Segasaki's flirting with her. 

I had so much fun with this show. This is the closest I come to a vibes rating. I tend to be forgiving with shows that are trying things that are fresh in the genre—or at least underexplored. And so, we’re mostly rating this show on the fact that it executes high heat in a believable way, for the most part, and was generally a really watchable eight weeks. I had a lot of fun with this show.

Shan

Mmhmm. I hope they get their season 2. I wanna see them finish it.

NiNi

I ended up giving this an 8. I think it was pretty good. The parts that I liked I really liked, and the other parts were just kind of a meh for me. ‘Meh’ is always going to be worse than ‘bad,’ for me anyway, unless it's offensive. So it drags it down from what could have been a 9 to an 8 for me. 

Shan, how about you?

Shan

In a shocking twist, I gave it a higher score than NiNi. I gave it an 8.5. Maybe because I, like you, Ben, appreciated what it was trying to do and wanted to give it a little credit for that.

Ben

I gave My Personal Weatherman an 8.5. So it can get an 8 from The Conversation. It's fine.

NiNi

So My Personal Weatherman gets an 8 from The Conversation, and on we go.

01:07:01 - If It's With You

NiNi

Our next show that we're talking about is If It's With You.

Ben

Oh! We're back to bangers! Let's continue!

Shan 

I got it!

If It's With You is about Amane, a high school student who fucks… You want me to say more than that?

Ben

No. You are correct, bestie, and this show is perfect. 

[NiNi laughs]

This show opens up with a high schooler having ill-advised sex with an older character, who's about to move to the countryside with his grandma. And his last hookup is like, “It's been really fun tearing that ass up. But maybe, when you move to this little, small seaside town, you can have a normal high school romance.” And he scoffs at the notion of someone like him ever having a high school romance, but little does he know he's in a five-episode MBS BL, and that's exactly what's in store for him! 

And it's great! He moves to the little seaside town. He immediately runs into a really hot guy who's super sweet, falls for him, and it ends up being mutual.

Shan

I like that this show is a twist on the classic romance trope of goin’ to a little seaside town, meetin’ someone unexpected, fallin’ in love. Like, there's hardly a more classic romance trope—we've all seen it a million times. But what was nice about it is that we had this young character who was already kind of jaded, and just didn't think that love was something he was interested in. And we got to see him form a really genuine connection with somebody—that was initially based on thinking he was hot and wanting to fuck him. Yeah, Amane definitely wanted to have sex with Ryuji. He made it kind of clear. 

One of my favorite things the show did was Amane is not in the closet. He's not ashamed of who he is, and he made sure that Ryuji knew, first that he was gay, and second that he wanted to be physically involved with Ryuji. He told him that straight up, and kind of braced himself for rejection because, as we learned, he had been rejected for that in the past by other friends. And then we get to see Ryuji react to that, and process it, and be like, “Okay, that's cool. I don't know that I can really reciprocate that right now, but I want to keep hanging out. Is that alright with you?” What a cool response to that. What a way to be, Ryuji, I love that! And then we got to just see them build a relationship from there. It felt very genuine.

NiNi

Amane is one of my favorite types, which is a masking sad boy. He's a sad boy who is pretending to be happy, and pretending to not care. Basically, he's putting on this front of being carefree when he's actually a very sad, very hurt boy, and Ryuji clocks that immediately and tells him, “Yo, you don't gotta do all of that around me. It's fine if you’re sad.” At that point I was not only in love with the show, I was in love with Amane. 

In fact, my only critique of the show is, I think, at the very, very end it pulled its punch. But… basically, Amane is one of my favorite characters of the year, and there's so much about Ryuji, too. Ryuji is a kid who's lost his dad, and he works with his mom in the restaurant where his dad used to cook. Literally, his dad is the one who taught him to cook, and now he cooks in the restaurant, and sometimes he doesn't go to school because he has to work in the restaurant, and his house is a little chaotic. But there's one corner where his dad's shrine is, which is spotless. 

Guys, if I start thinking about this show too much, I'm actually gonna cry. I think the show touched me somewhere very deep, and it's a thing that I'm still thinking about, even if, as I said, I think it pulled its punches a little bit at the end, it stayed with me. Also, some of the greatest set design. Y’all know I love Japanese set design. It's a fantastic example of set design.

Ben

Continuing the conversation we had with I Cannot Reach You about how it's very difficult to be gay when you're young. Amane tried to have the youth thing that Heartstopper indicates that we could potentially have, and Amane is crushed for it—the way many of us are crushed—accidentally! The best thing about the way Amane gets crushed is that his friend crushes him without realizing he did—excellent gay angst. Top tier. I feel the old wounds festering. It's great. 

NiNi

[laughs] Why are you like this?

Ben

[laughs]

So Amane is not well, and he's doing what many of us do: he skips it. Gay people who are closeted do not get to have high school romances. We don't get used to people perceiving us and what it means to be a couple. We skip so much of this, and then you become an adult, and these anonymous hookups—that are not very meaningful—and they can feel weird, because you're trying to be vulnerable with someone, and they don't want that. And it sucks to try and have intimate moments with other gay people that feel like transactions. It makes you feel cheap about yourself, and Amane understood that. And he's gorgeous. He's a funny, thoughtful, heartfelt little boy, and he already thinks he is just someone else for other people to hook up with.

Shan

I just want to say NiNi’s right that they pulled their punch at the end, and it's why this show isn't perfect for me. I loved it a lot, but the show started, as we’ve mentioned, with a character for whom sexual intimacy—sexual desire—was a big part of just how he lived, how he thought of himself, what he liked to do. And I don't like it when shows explicitly or implicitly imply that serious relationships, true love, do not have a sexual component. That sex is something salacious and dirty, and that love is something pure. And I think, because the show pulled its punches at the end here on the sexual relationship between Amane and Ryuji, I think that's a little bit of the implicit message that they put out there. And I don't love that. So I do have to ding them for that. They didn't finish strong.

Ben

I do agree in that regard and it was very unfortunate for this show that I Cannot Reach You finished, like, two weeks later. [laughs]

Shan

It really didn't help this show that I Cannot Reach You came up on its tail and did it better.

Ben

I really like the show. I really like the way that it set up a very initial premise of “maybe you should try a real romance, kid.” Like, you're still a kid. You can still have a good romance. It doesn't matter that you failed once: A great message to all the little gays out there, old and young. You can still have worthwhile romance. Shiro got to have a great relationship with Kenji at like 47!

Shan

There it is! I've been waiting for it! It's amazing! You made it two hours without it. Two whole hours before you did it.

Ben

I was trying so hard, bestie. I really was. I was really trying not to mention What Did You Eat Yesterday? in this episode. [laughs]

NiNi

I knew once we hit Japanese BL, it was only a matter of time.

Ben

I was trying so hard, y’all. Like, they were talking about the way this man couldn't cook, and I was like, “Ooh, I can't mention What Did You Eat Yesterday?” 

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Y’all got me so conscious about my favorite show! They dragged me, y'all! They ate me up! They tore me to pieces! 

But seriously, in terms of, like, messaging, I agree. They muddled it a little bit, but I really like Amane's arc. 

It's good! One of my favorites of the year. Let's go around the room. Ratings! NiNi?

NiNi

I give it a 10.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

I gave it a 9.5.

Ben

I also gave it a 9.5. I think it is a Conversation 9.5 because we all agree that it muddled the waters on Amane’s relationship with sex as it pertains to Ryuji.

NiNi

I concur. So, it's a 9.5 from The Conversation for If It's With You.

01:15:38 - Absolute Zero

NiNi

And now we are into the shit. [laughs]

Ben

Oh, oh shit! Oh fuck! It's two hours into this! I have almost finished my daiquiri. I am drunk. 

[NiNi laughs]

Let's talk about Absolute Zero!

NiNi

You're gonna get exactly three minutes on Absolute Zero, okay?

Ben

Oh, sure, that's all I need.

NiNi

I'm not letting you get into another New Siwaj thing. [laughs] Should be easy, because I didn't watch it, and Shan and Ben did not finish it. Ben, tell us what Absolute Zero is about.

Ben

Absolute Zero is a time travel BL in which a gay man in his 30s… No, he's technically 26. Oh my God. A 26 year-old gay man! His partner, who he lives with, has an accident. He's in a coma. He's having a bad time. And then a magic taxi takes him to the past, and then he does nothing for six episodes except date the younger version [laughs] of his boyfriend, and confuse the fuck out of them. And then apparently a bunch of time travel nonsense happens after this, and I had to be forcibly dragged off of this show [Shan laughs] because the clowns were worried for me. 

We don't need to talk about the show. Shan, you don't need to talk about it? NiNi, you don’t need to talk about it. I'm gonna look directly into the camera. 

[NiNi laughs]

New Siwaj, you had multiple opportunities this year to do something meaningful. I have had to sit here across from NiNi for over a year as Tee Bundit has put out three different shows, 2 and one half of which I thought flopped in one way or another. [Shan laughs] You had multiple opportunities to give me something useful to talk about with NiNi on this podcast, and you failed me, sir. 

This was your chance to do Until We Meet Again-style BL again, and you should have given us all something sad and melancholy to reflect over as a real good capstone of this year and you [starts yelling] fucking blew it for all of us! 

I cannot believe you, sir. You've wasted so much of our goddamn time. I cannot believe you embarrassed me on this podcast like this. 

[NiNi laughs]

Shan

New Siwaj is having whatever the opposite of a renaissance year is. 

NiNi

Ooh.

Ben

So bad. Like, you should have thrived under these circumstances. This is your bread and butter: caring way too much about little shit, but you didn't get any of the big shit right. This was a terrible experience. Literally, only two other people we know of finished your goddamn show.

Shan

And they hated it, every minute!

Ben

They had nothing positive to say about it. For over two months, this was horrible. What an absolute waste of genuinely good talent at every level of this production. Reportedly, everyone gave decent performances, and you wasted them on this empty drivel. What the fuck was this? You had four years of having the rights of the story. You had the actual writer of the novel on staff helping you write the goddamn script. And it was still this stupid empty mess, which apparently ends at none of it really occurring, but everyone having some sort of form of temporal PTSD? Like this was a 12 week Star Trek episode? What the absolute fuck was this?

[NiNi laughs]

Shan

I have nothing to add. 

NiNi

Hydrate, baby, hydrate.

Ben

Oh, girl you know I got my water right here. 

This show gets no rating from The Conversation. We DNF’d this show. We will never be going back to this show. 

I will allow the rest of you to offer additional commentary. Proceed.

NiNi

So, Ben, is this breakup gonna stick?

Shan

Yeah, right. 

Ben

We have talked about this girl. 

[NiNi laughs]

He's got a whole college BL with all of the B- and C-listers at GMMTV coming out in the spring. I gotta watch this fucking shithow, don't you worry. 

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

Shan

There never has been a break up, and there never will be a breakup. Let’s just be clear.

NiNi

They’re the couple that fights in the street, and then the next day they're all boo’d up. I hate you so much.

Ben

We are what they thought they were doing with Cher and Top in Only Friends.

Shan

Mew and Top.

NiNi

[laughs] I’m so mad that you called it Cher in Only Friends!

Ben

Oh, Mew and Top. Right, right, right, right, right, right. 

[NiNi laughs]

It gets a 0 from The Conversation!

Shan

An Absolute Zero.

NiNi

An Absolute Zero.

Ben

Oh man, I didn't make another windmill joke during If It's With You—If It's With You is about how— [laughs]

A windmill!

[laughs harder]

NiNi

I am so done with you. I am moving on. We are moving on.

01:21:05 - My Dear Gangster Oppa

NiNi

We're moving on to—I am just calling it ‘the main event.’

Ben

No, no, I'll do it, because you have to describe this one. You're gonna take this L, bestie.

[NiNi laughs]

On to our next show: My Dear Gangster Oppa. NiNi, tell us about [laughs] My Dear Gangster Oppa.

NiNi

My Dear Gangster Oppa is the B-movie’s B-movie. My Dear Gangster Oppa is a Thai BL based on a Korean webtoon that I have not read—because I never read these things—but I do know that it's based on a Korean webtoon, so I get a point for that. It is about the titular gangster oppa, Tew, and the titular dear, Guy. 

They meet playing some kind of mobile game virtually and they somehow become sort of close, or at least close enough that when the gaming team decides that they're going to meet in real life, all the other gamers are like, “Guy, you ask Oppa to come to the meet up, because he'll come if you ask him to.” Well, at that point they thought it was a her because Oppa plays with a female avatar because of reasons.

Ben

Naive assumptions.

NiNi

[laughs] The point of the matter is Oppa’s a gangster, like legit—guns, beatings, stabbings.

Ben

He has murdered people!

NiNi

He has absolutely killed people, and Guy is just a sad gay boy in love with his bestie since high school… 

I'm sorry guys, I'm doing a terrible job of describing the show.

Shan

It's not you, NiNi, it's the show!

Ben

I'll back you up. It starts off as a show about gamers, and two of them falling for each other, and then decides to become a shitty mafia BL.

NiNi

[gasps]

Shan

A boring mafia BL.

Ben

There it is. It becomes a boring mafia BL.

NiNi

Shan and Ben are stabbing me through the heart right now. I just want to let you, the listeners, know.

Ben

Well, how about you climb over the wall wearing your kneepads and drop onto—[Ben and NiNi laughs]—the mattress?

NiNi

That's why it's a B-movie’s B-movie, Ben!

Shan

No, listen. NO!

NiNi

Okay, the show had—the show had ideas.

Ben

Did it?

NiNi

It had ideas. Some of the ideas were really good. The execution of the show is terrible. Some of it is terrible. I—okay, it's all terrible by accident. Like none of this is done on purpose. Do not get me wrong. It is very, very bad.

Ben

They hired the most juiceless boys, and then pretended that they had juice. That was not good. Like if you had— 

Oof. I have my own read. Finish talking about your little show you had fun with before I cut it to pieces.

NiNi

This show is not good. It's not good. I am not defending it on any type of quality grounds. I just enjoyed the fuck out of it. That's all I'm saying. It was trash. You could see all the seams, as Ben has intimated. You can see the stuntee's knee pads and elbow pads. You can see them throwing themselves off of things and falling onto the barely-hidden mats. Oh my God, it's so bad. It's so bad that I laughed my ass off for eight weeks. I'm sorry, I had a good time.

Shan

Let me give NiNi some credit. I just binged this show this week, and I was genuinely having fun with it for the first half—the same vibe that NiNi’s talking about. Like I was, like, “This is hilariously bad, but it's kind of funny.” 

[laughs] We have to talk about the bright orange scar makeup. 

Ben

Do we?

Shan

Did they not have red or black in their makeup kits? They put these fucking neon orange scars on him [laughs], and it was the worst thing I've ever seen. But it’s like, that kind of shit is funny, it was a good time. But the show's biggest sin to me is not that it wasn't good. It was never going to be good. It's that it got so fucking boring, because it abandoned all the funny elements—the fun and silly and wacky things it was doing in the beginning with, like, the gamers—and treating the difference between them in some ways so seriously, and in some ways so deeply unseriously. That dichotomy was kind of fun. 

But then in the second-half of the show, it becomes all about this fucking mafia plot, and it was terrible. Like, it—it was terrible because it was so boring. The energy just sucked straight out of the screen every time I had to sit through these long ass scenes of Oppa talking to these different mafia guys about what they were mad about and why. I never gave a single shit. It was horrible. And that is why the show pissed me off, because it was fun, and then it decided to just be this dull nothing. 

This show, like Oppa, needed to quit the gangster life.

NiNi

[laughs] When I tell you, I actually screamed. Like, my sister had to come check on me.

Shan

It was all downhill from that line. That was the peak of the show.

NiNi

[laughs] How dare you? The show had a budget of $47.18 and it spent all of it on that scar prosthetic.

Ben

I watched this with Aiden, who you may have heard on the I Told Sunset About You episode. Aiden could not remember Tew’s name, and once he started wearing those horrible suspenders [laughs] Aiden just started calling him Urkel for the rest of our watches. 

NiNi

Now you see, that's fun.

Ben

Shan refused to learn his name and just called him ‘Oppa’ the whole time.

Shan

I stand by it.

NiNi

It's the B-movie’s B-movie. It's like B-exponential, like B-to-the-power-of-B. Okay, I'm sorry. I am that girl.

Ben

You heard many a Gay Rant from me over the last year. New rant unlocked for The Conversation: Gamer Rant.

NiNi

Oh, no.

Shan

Oh, boy.

Ben

We don't talk about this on the podcast, but I have a very long history of being very involved with a very specific video game. I have deep and meaningful relationships with other gamers. I was the best man at a gamer wedding where sixteen of us showed up. We were deep at that wedding—we had our own goddamn table. And I showed up as the only representative at a smaller wedding to make sure that one of us was present to witness the event. 

Gaming relationships are so important to me because when you're a weirdo and you don't fit in, It's easy to become close with people very quickly online because you're anonymous. They don't know anything about you. This show ends up abandoning all the interesting things about this weird collection of people who had found each other through this game, and decided to meet up together and extend that relationship into meatspace, to then become the weirdly worst mafia BL we've seen in a while, which was so twisted because the show clearly likes action film, and then embarrassed itself trying to mimic them. And clearly cared about violence, because Tew has a legitimately violent history that is handled with far more seriousness than even something like KinnPorsche did. 

There was so much that was way more interesting than being a shitty action schlock BL that this show could have been by starting with the gaming component, and it was legitimately infuriating for me to see this show use it as a cheap way to say these guys know each other, to then do nothing interesting with the mafia shit. 

I hate this show, so much. This is one of the worst shows we watched this season because this show could have been a fun action schlock B-movie if it was a fucking movie. But it asked for eight fucking weeks from me. I spent eight hours with this motherfucker—I had a lot of time to think about this shit. This show sucks way more than it even realizes that it sucks, and that's really the sad part about it all. This show is one of the worst [laughs] shows I watched in this season and I hate it.

NiNi

Shan, Ben is gamer offended, among other things.

Shan

I do think this show would have been a lot better if it was about the gamers instead of about the mafia.

Ben

There was a real opportunity for them to just only talk about their team stuff and for all of Tew’s gangster shit to be lore going on in the background, cause when you're hanging out with your homies online, their real lives are lore. Like, NiNi is in school. That means nothing to me.

[NiNi laughs]

“Is she gonna be present for this show? Oh, wait. No. She's gotta worry about, like, her real life stuff with her family or her school or our podcast. Well, shit, NiNi's busy. I guess I can't bug her to watch this tiny Taiwanese BL that I really like. It's not that important.” 

Shan does really cool shit in her real life. That means nothing to me! “Shan, are you available to watch this Japanese BL that I really like?” That's all I care about.

Shan

Always bestie, always.

Ben

That's the point. Gaming friendships—we don't really know what people do in their day-to-day lives. Like it would have been legitimately funny if Tew was, like, never lying about shit. Like, “Yeah, we just had a really weird stuff. Like, a guy came into the store. I had to, like, beat the shit out of four guys. I might have killed one of them. Whatever. We got rid of his body.” And they would be like, “Haha! Whatever! It’s time for practice.” If they had legitimately focused on whatever gaming shit they were concerned about and all of Tew’s mafia shit happened in the background as just fan fiction we all made-up, this would have been a fucking excellent show. 

But instead it was this disaster that ended up offending me way more than I expected it to. Fuck this show! 

On to Wahl, who was one of the characters I hate the most this year. Oh, I got words for that motherfucker. Don't think we're getting out of this recording without me going off about Wahl. Fuck that dude. I hate this dude so much. This character is not redeemable to me. Wahl only cares about Guy at the point at which Guy remains under his control. And the grossest thing this show did was have him accept that he can no longer control Guy, and then imply that he ends up with another guy at the end to perpetuate this cycle he has. He is so fucking vile. I hate him so fucking much.

Shan

I would just like to say that I concur on Wahl. That guy fucking sucks, and I hated him from maybe the second episode.

Ben

As soon as he did that stupid seal dance, I was like, “I hate this man!” [laughs]

Shan

You are done.

Ben

I'm like, “That's not even a whale, you stupid son of a bitch! Get outta here!”

Shan

He was a shitty friend, and as always, I got salty about him being forgiven without having to pay any consequences for his shitty behavior.

NiNi

We all agree that Wahl sucks. [laughs] We can agree on that. [laughs]

Ben

Does anyone have anything else to say about this terrible show before we move on?

NiNi

I am continuing to defend it. I will give it a 6.5.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

I gave it a 5.

Ben

I gave it a 4.

NiNi

So, Shan, by The Price is Right rules, you win [laughs] and the show gets a 5.

Shan

Feels right.

01:33:32 - Middleman's Love

NiNi

Moving on to our final show, and the one we all just finished today—well Ben and I finished. Shan watched the beginning and the end, which I think is a delightful way to watch this show.

Shan

I am very happy with my choices.

NiNi

So we all watched Middleman's Love. Yes, you might have heard me say on an earlier episode of this podcast that I would not be watching Middleman's Love. However, you should mind your business, because just because I said it doesn't mean it's happening.

Ben

I say I break up with New Siwaj every single season of the show. [NiNi and Shan laugh] It's whatever. We don't care.

NiNi

So I watched Middleman's Love, and I have actual real thoughts. But first we gotta tell the people what Middleman's Love is about. So, Ben, take it away.

Ben

Middleman's Love is a spin off from Bed Friend. Jade is a middle child and used to being overlooked by his family and his friends. They've got some interns at work. He doesn't realize that his intern has an enormous crush on him, and so is using his fudanshi eyes to try and hook him up with another intern, and slowly comes to realize the intern actually has legitimate feelings for him as we unpack Jade's own hang ups as it comes to love. 

While there are a lot of things I ended up enjoying, the show attempts to be comedic in a way that was really divisive and it ends up being kind of a mixed bag. Bed Friend is a really dramatic show, and while I don't think all of us currently here agree about how well Bed Friend did these things, Middleman's Love as a really comedic tonal shift doesn't always work because they're relying on Yim to be comedic as Jade in a way that makes you ask legitimately as Shan likes to say, “Why would anyone want to fuck this man?”

Shan

[laughs] Well, I did wonder why anyone would want to fuck this guy.

Ben

And that is honestly a legitimate question to ask early on in this. This ends up getting a little bit of Cheewin’s stuff—and I’ll let NiNi have that part—’cause she's much kinder to Cheewin about this than I am. But that's basically the gist of it. Jade is a middle child who's used to being overlooked and playing supporting role to other people who comes to realize that he can have love, too. 

NiNi, your thoughts on the show?

NiNi

That's it in a nutshell. I have a lot of thoughts on this show because it helped me clarify a lot of things about Cheewin. 

Now I get to say some lore and some BTS stuff because I know things too, Ben. This was originally cast with Jimmy and Tommy, with Tommy as Jade and Jimmy as Mai.

Ben

That would have been way better. [laughs] That would have been way better!

NiNi

Hold on. Hold on. Let me finish. While I think that Tommy would have made a better Jade, I actually prefer Tutor’s Mai to what we probably might have gotten out of Jimmy. 

I have a lot of Cheewin feelings about this show, because some of the things that I enjoy about Cheewin is that he likes to examine artifice and performance, and the things that we're hiding when we put on these big personas and personalities. And he explores that through a lot of sometimes-cringey humor, which I really like. It's the Secret Crush on You thing. It's certain parts of Make It Right. It's certain bits of Bed Friend? 

Basically, Cheewin likes to look at artifice and then puncture it. Cheewin likes to look at what makes people present weird and unpack that, and he likes to unpack that using sex because I think that Cheewin thinks—and I kind of agree—that sex is a revelatory experience. I suppose you can hide while you're having sex, but it's incredibly difficult, especially if you feel something for the person that you're having sex with. I personally find it interesting to watch that. 

I think that this show was miscalibrated, and not just in the acting or the tone. Unlike a lot of people, I actually do like cringe humor and some of the slapstick that we get in Thai comedy. I actually enjoy that stuff. It doesn't put me off. I think that the way that Cheewin uses humor in Middleman's Love is way better than how he used it in Bed Friend, and how he built it in Bed Friend. I think that the humor here, the comedy here, has done better. I think that Yim is not great at the comedy, and since Yim's character is the central character of Middleman's Love, it doesn't work. 

Plus, the story doesn't need eight episodes and Ben and I often talk about when something's too long, because I like a long show—Ben does not. This story was eight episodes and I think it could have been done in four. I like parts of the show. I like some of the things that the show is trying to do. I think that it mostly does not succeed.

Ben

Shan, you watched the first episode. [laughs] You were horrified by bobble heads in the intro—

Shan

[moans] I still have nightmares.

Ben

—and the general cringey humor. And then you came back for the finale. How about you talk about your experience with this show?

Shan

Definitely accurate to say that I bounced hard off this show after watching the first episode, and I definitely wasn't alone in that. In talking to other people we know who are watching it, a lot of folks had that reaction. 

NiNi has already touched on why—the humor was not quite calibrated correctly, and the performer who had to hold up the whole show wasn't really up to the task, unfortunately. That's just what happened here. And so, for some of us, I think getting through that super uncomfortable cringe humor with a performer who wasn't quite able to carry it was just really difficult. 

I struggled through the first episode. The bobbleheads really got me off on a terrible start. I hated those fucking things [laughs]—they still haunt me. And just throughout, I didn't really understand what I was supposed to be taking from the way Jade was being presented to me. He didn't feel like a real person. It was way too much. I didn't understand why this hot guy in the office was supposed to be looking at him with interest, given what we had seen of him. It just wasn't computing for me and I wasn't buying it. 

I didn't intend to fully drop the show, but then the following week I left on a long trip. And while I was gone, I missed the next three episodes. By the time I got back, I was just like, “You know what? No, I'm not taking this back up. I'm just gonna wait and see what you all told me after it finished.” And so, I kind of knew the show wasn't for me, but I wasn't opposed to the idea of it. I like an ugly duckling story. I like a story about someone finding their confidence and being able to accept that they are worthy of love. Like, that's a worthwhile story to tell. And so I'm not anti-The Middleman's Love. It just didn't quite work for me. 

The show finished this week. I decided to come back and watch the finale, just to kind of see where it landed, and [laughs] I actually think that was a great way to watch the show. If you, like me, are just not into the show's style and humor, you can watch the first episode and then you can watch the last episode, and you really won't miss any narrative beats—like it's super clear. The plot is very straightforward. You will be able to pick up in the last episode and understand everything important that has happened, and why the characters are where they are now. And you'll get to see Jade and Mai kind of settle into this relationship. 

And I thought that was nice. I enjoyed watching the finale. I liked getting to see a Jade who had seriously toned down some of the quirks of the first episode—a Jade, who seemed a little bit more confident—but still the same character. And I really enjoyed what they did with the physical intimacy in this episode. 

First of all, let me just give a cautionary note. If you are not watching this show on iQIYI, you are not seeing the whole show. I watched the finale on Gaga and got to the end and was like, “Where are these sex scenes that I heard about?”

Ben

The trust that Shan has in me [Shan laughs] she watched the whole show cut and was like, “Ben would never lie to me about sex scenes.”

Shan

You told me there were sex scenes in this!

Ben

“He used the Rihanna GIF. There is sex in the show.” [laughs]

Shan

And I will find it! So I did find it. [NiNi laughs] I went to iQIYI and I found it. So definitely watch it there. 

But I loved what they did with it because they really used the intimacy scenes well to convey these two settling into their relationship to convey Jade over time becoming more comfortable with their physical intimacy—finding his own power in it, finding his own agency in it. The performers did a great job on those scenes. I was incredibly impressed by it, impressed by the show's ability to take those characters from point A to B like that. 

If this show maybe wasn't entirely for you—if you, like me, dropped it in the beginning—I'd say maybe dip back in for the finale and enjoy a good time.

Ben

I like the idea of Jade a lot. I like the idea of a character who's had negative experiences feeling like he doesn't get priority from his family, ‘cause he's not the oldest and he's not the baby, not expecting a whole lot. And I like the idea of Jade having two really fucking hot friends in King and Uea, and just getting used to people being more interested in them, so not really seeing himself as a priority. And then he had like one relationship where he was literally told, “You were so weird and disgusting that no one wants to be with you.” 

I kind of get it with Mai. It structurally works. Mai is very pretty. He's generally very good at his job. He's kind of charming, but not overwhelmingly so. He's just naturally very pretty and nice to people, and fairly amenable and good at what he does. And he's really into Jade because he thought Jade was really kind and competent the first time he saw him. The flavor of this could have been correct, but then, like, they added way too much sugar. It’s just not great as a result. 

It's frustrating because Cheewin's ideas, as they're exemplified through the characters created for this show in Gus and Tong—and what he does with Jade and Mail—work really well. But the show is unfortunately really inessential. The people who watched this show were coming from Bed Friend, and I don't feel like this show really plays well as a Bed Friend extension or side story sort of experience. I think a lot of people brought the wrong energy to this show, and it took us weeks of recalibration to find something meaningful in it. And I don't think it finishes strong, because while I appreciate Cheewin’s giving the gays an extended boyfriend epilogue, an hour of watching people just be kind of cute boyfriends with no real drama on the table is kind of boring to watch in a TV show? And there's way more drama in watching people try to be boyfriends and deal with the consequences of actually being together. 

There's a great moment where they talk about their past exes and what that means for them, what they're bringing to the current relationship. How they want to handle drama going forward. I thought that was really good. I thought the fact that Jade asked for sex was really good, and then he got it. I don't approve of Mai biting that man's motherfucking glasses—

NiNi 

[laughs] I approve!

Ben

—and then tossing them around.

Shan

Ben, he licked his glasses off! Licked! [NiNi laughs] It’s a very important detail! I don't want you to get it wrong!

NiNi

[laughs] Shan, I don't know about you but personally I approve.

Shan

I did approve. I was very into that!

Ben

I actually liked when Mail wore the glasses in the second sex scene we got.

NiNi

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shan

A lot of good glasses material in these scenes.

NiNi

Top-tier, absolutely no notes, no complaints there, none whatsoever.

Ben

This show was a lot of fun when it wanted to be. And when it wasn't, it kind of sucked. NiNi, you don't spend a lot of time in the pulps, but My Dear Gangster Oppa and Middleman's Love? This is what the pulps are like. There are things that are worth talking about, and then there are things that are not. These shows are almost always kind of bad, but there's kind of something interesting that won't happen in the big network shows.

NiNi

I have been convinced into pulps before. I have enjoyed pulps before. We have discussed this before. I am not opposed to a good pulp, but it's gotta be a good pulp. The flaws of these two shows aside, I had a really good time with them, and I found things not just to enjoy, but also to give me a little bit to think about. Not like a ton to think about, granted, but they give me stuff to think about in both of these shows. And, for me, that's why I landed up more or less in the same place with them. 

I gave Middleman's Love a 7. I think that's a perfectly reasonable score for it.

Ben

I gave this show a 6, not because I think it's bad or necessarily boring, but as I've explained with my rating system before, a 6 means the show is not offensive but I really truly think the only people who gain value from giving this show the eight hours-plus that it asks for is people who really give a shit about BL as a genre.

NiNi

Shan, what about you? How are you rating your short version BL cut?

Shan

I mean, obviously I didn't fully watch the show properly, so take it with a grain of salt, but this feels like a 6 show to me. That's what my heart is telling me it's a six.

NiNi

I will allow y'all to fully average down to 6.5 under protest.

Ben

That's not how math works, but okay.

NiNi

Listen, we gave up on math a long time ago on this show. Okay, just accept it and move on.

Ben

I think 6.5 is fair.

NiNi

If you like cringe comedy, I'm not saying that this show does cringe comedy as well as some other shows have done cringe comedy. And I bring up here Secret Crush on You because it's by the same creator, and it is some pinnacle cringe comedy—like some fantastic cringe comedy—that is just not replicated here. But if you like cringe comedy, there's something in here for you. If you like Thai-style slapstick, there's something in here for you. 

That's all I'll say about it.

01:49:07 - Final Thoughts and Girl, You Tried

Ben

On to the final event: Girl, You Tried Winter 2023.

NiNi

So the Fall shows, there were some that tried and succeeded. They don't count for this award. Bye-bye, two-out-of-three Japanese BLs that we just talked about. So, My Personal Weatherman is in contention for Girl, You Tried.

Ben

Oh, then it wins.

NiNi

[laughs] Let's see what else we have here. We have Kiseki, which didn't try. Shan, do you think that Kiseki tried?

Shan

No, it did not try to be a coherent show. It cannot get the Girl, You Tried.

Ben

Thank you, Shan.

NiNi

So Kiseki is out of contention. Dangerous Romance sucked. It's not in contention for anything. Love in Translation is too good to be in contention for Girl, You Tried—that goes. Absolute Zero? Pfft, forget about it. My Dear Gangster Oppa, it definitely tried something.

Shan

Did it?

NiNi

I think it did. 

Ben

Hmm.

NiNi

Ben really just unmuted just to go “Hmm” and go back on mute. Okay, fine. It's going into contention. And Middleman's Love. I think Middleman's Love did try, and I think that the execution of it was off. Not that it was necessarily bad, but that it was off. So if I had to put a Girl, You Tried contest together right now, it would be between My Personal Weatherman and Middleman's Love. 

So, Shan, for you, very important vote now. My Personal Weatherman versus Middleman's Love for Girl, You Tried.

Shan

Oh, this is a hard one, ‘cause I think of the Girl, You Tried designation as, like, being for a show that got really close to being what it wanted to be—like almost got the execution right and then kind of just missed the mark. So for me, I think I'm going to have to give that to My Personal Weatherman between these two shows. I think it did have ambitions, and I think it did know what it wanted to be with clarity, and it just fell a little short on the execution. Whereas, I think Middleman's Love was a little bit messier and didn't have as clear of a vision of what it was doing?

NiNi

Okay, that's one for My Personal Weatherman. Ben, I already know your answer, but come on. Explain it to the people.

Ben

Hello, people. 

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

So when we were first planning this episode, the Girl, You Tried debate was between My Dear Gangster Oppa and Middleman's Love, but I didn't realize how much I fucking hated My Dear Gangster Oppa until we got here and I was talking about it. And I was, like, “You know what, actually.” 

I would have given it to Middleman's Love because Cheewin was trying to do the things that he likes to do, but now that you put My Personal Weatherman in contention, I gotta give it to that one. I think My Personal Weatherman is trying things that are harder to do than Middleman's Love. I think the ideas of that show are way more cogent, and easier to access and have a conversation about with people than something like Middleman's Love.

NiNi

Okay, so for me, if I had to choose who attempted the higher degree of difficulty, it would be Middleman's Love. It's a high wire act. It's so easy to fall off. If I have to think about who got closer to their intentions, I would say it's My Personal Weatherman. 

Girl, You Tried has a criterion, which is a strong premise with some sort of flaw/failure in the execution. But it has also become somewhat of a personal Rorschach test for us as we go through the shows, and attempt to unpack what it is that we think they did well, what it is we think they did badly, what it is we enjoyed and didn't enjoy. And that enjoyment component does have something to do with how we end up on a Girl, You Tried. 

If they're tied right now based on those other criteria, and I have to think about what I personally enjoyed more, I would have to give it to Middleman's Love. 

Shan and Ben outvote me. Boohoo. I'm gonna go cry about it.

Ben

I don't want to walk away from this particular recording pretending like I don't like Middleman's Love. The spirit inside of it is worth acknowledging.

Shan

I think both of these shows are worthy of talking about as shows that tried to do somethin’. I think for me, My Personal Weatherman just gets a little bit closer there and it's doing a little bit more.

NiNi

I think that's a good place to leave it, so that's going to wrap us up on Tens and Chops, our first ever full grab bag episode. So this is Volume One, hopefully with many more to come. 

Next up, the VIIB Awards. I'm looking forward to that. I'm excited. 

Anyway, we out. Say “bye” to the people, Ben. 

Ben

Peace! 

NiNi

Shan, say “bye” to the people.

Shan

Bye, people.

[thebawdybaldurian]

Bonus Intercrural Astarion

I thought our little vamp deserved a little fun too, so I continued the ficlet I wrote for Halsin/Tav week. It has a little Halstarion and Tavstarion and baby daddy action.

Content and Warnings: discussion of infant health and pregnancy recovery, blood drinking, oral sex, thigh job/intercrural sex, new family dynamics.

Continuation of this

Perfect timing,” Halsin sighed, giving her one last kiss on the cheek. “Do you want me to check on them?”

“I”m sure they are both hungry,” Tav turned around, giving his nipple a gentle bite. “I’ll trade you for these,” she cupped her milk-engorged breasts in her hands.

“I wouldn’t ever stop playing with them,” he laughed, heading towards the bathroom while Tav went to the bedroom across the hall.

Astarion was already up and rocking Ava who was crying again. “Gods she’s a whiny one,” he sighed as Tav walked in.

“She takes after her father,” Tav grinned, settling herself into the arm chair she nursed in.

“What have you been up to? You’re all wet,” he noted the damp, translucent patches on the front of her chemise.

“Just the dishes,” Tav blushed, pulling it off her shoulders and taking Ava from him. She latched immediately and stopped crying. “See, she was just hungry.”

“So is daddy,” Astarion purred, leaning down to give Tav a kiss. He couldn’t wait to drink from her again once she was a little more rested. “Is Halsin up? I thought he wasn’t letting you do housework.”

“He helped,” she blushed deeper. “Is Shan awake? He’ll be hungry, but might not be crying.”

Astarion peeked in on his son’s crib, his violet eyes open. They widened happily when he saw his father. “Good morning, little cub,” Astarion picked him up. “Now you need to talk to your sister about letting us sleep.”

“I wonder if we should take her to a doctor,” Tav remarked as Astarion got Shantarion settled against her other breast. “Halsin knows a lot about healing but…”

“You think something is wrong with her?” Astarion brushed his fingers through her curls.

“I don’t know…it’s a little endearing that she’s as cranky as you, but…if she’s…inherited something from you…she might have…special dietary needs too.”

“You think she’s a dhamphir? That she really is of my blood?”

“It’s possible. She nurses fine, but she’s still so small…and she almost seems…unsatisfied after she eats, even if I keep offering to let her suck longer.”

“Would they be able to tell if she was?”

“I have no idea, this is all conjecture. I’m just…worried…and being neurotic.”

“Not neurotic…just being a mother,” he grinned. “Perhaps we can ask around…for a doctor that specializes in unique physiology.”

She nodded, looking down at Ava quietly nursing. Astarion kissed her again and then went to find Halsin. “Good morning,” he peeked into the bathroom, hearing the shower on.

“Morning, my heart,” Halsin turned with a smile, his wet hair dripping over his eyes. “Is Clataedre feeding the little ones?”

“She is,” Astarion stepped under the water with him, giving him a deep kiss.

“You must be ready for breakfast then,” Halsin leaned down a bit so Astarion could access his neck.

“I could be persuaded for something extra,” Astarion sunk to his knees, deciding to drink from Halsin’s thick thigh instead.

“Extra?” Halsin moaned as Astarion bit gently into his flesh after giving it a quick nuzzle.

Astarion took a quick drink, recognizing a familiar note on his tongue. “Oh, you’ve come already this morning?” Astarion licked his lips, always able to taste the hyper-oxygenation of post-climax blood.

“Sorry,” Halsin swept the wet curls out of his eyes. “I…helped Clataedre with the dishes…and…”

“I see,” Astarion smirked. “So that’s why she was wet.”

“More than usual,” Halsin blushed, letting his hand linger on Astarion’s hip. With Tav mostly out of commission, they’d been satisfying their urges together when she rested. “I can make my shower a little longer…if you want?”

“I’m sure the babes will need a diaper change soon and if Tav finds you sucking my cock instead, we might both be sleeping on the couch for excluding her.”

“I’m hoping this morning helped with her impatience. I know she’s eager to get back to regular activities, but she needs to rest after what Shan put her through.”

“Damn your giant heads,” Astarion laughed, slapping Halsin’s ass as he stepped out of the shower.

Astarion started washing his hair, languishing in the hot water cascading against his cold skin.

“Don’t take it all,” Tav called, padding into the bathroom after finishing her nursing.

“What?” Astarion smiled, squeezing water out of his curls.

“The hot water,” she slipped her chemise over her head and tossed it in the hamper.

“Why don’t you come keep me warm then?” He asked, eyeing the trail of cum down her thighs. He stopped her from getting under the water for a moment, scooping up some of the cum on his fingers. “How did he manage to get it there? I thought your ass was off limits too?”

“He didn’t fuck my ass,” she purred, pressing him against the shower wall and kissing him deeply.

“No?” He hissed as she nibbled down his chest, flicking her tongue against his nipple. “Show me where.”

She sunk down to her knees, circling her tongue around his glans, looking up at him with devilish lust. “Don’t tell Halsin I did this,” she whispered, kissing and nuzzling his stiffening shaft. “He thinks this counts as work.”

“Bad…girl..” he moaned quietly, closing his eyes as she took him completely in her mouth.

She sucked him until he was well stiff, kissing a trail back up to his mouth.

“Lean against the wall and bend your knees a little,” she instructed. He was only slightly taller than her, so they wouldn’t need to use a footstool to get him at the right height.

“I see,” he grinned as she helped nestle him between her thighs, even more slick from sucking his cock. “Like this?” He moaned, pulling her hips back and forth slowly.

“You like it?” She purred, squeezing her thighs a little tighter.

“Not as much as your cunt…but…mmmmhhhh,” he shivered as she squeezed even tighter.

“Fuck, I love you,” he sighed, moving her hips a little faster. “I missed this…”

“I missed this too, my love,” she huffed, one of his hands gently rubbing her clit. “The kids have kept us so busy over the past tenday…I feel like I’ve barely seen you both even though you’ve been here the whole time.”

“We should…oh fuck…you feel so good…do this every morning…not…uhnnnn this exactly but…set time aside to…oh Gods Tav,” he moaned as she slipped a few fingers up his ass with a seductive giggle. He fucked her with urgent desire now, needing to share the little death with her again.

“I love you…uhhhnnn…Astarion…I…,” she quivered, squeezing her thighs tight as she came again.

The extra pressure set him off as well, spending between her thighs with a relieved groan. He pulled her close, kissing her deeply while remaining nestled in their shared arousal. They made out until the boiler was empty, the water growing quickly colder. “How did I get so lucky?” He wrapped a towel around them both, pressing her warm skin against his.

“We both kind of hit the jackpot,” she nuzzled against him as they ambled to the bedroom together, still sharing their towel.

Halsin was dozing on the bed, the infants nestled in the crook of his arms, freshly changed and fast asleep as well. Tav and Astarion put on robes and climbed in next to him, snuggling on either side. They would take whatever sleep and time together that they could manage, sinking into a peaceful trance together until one of them invariably woke up again.

[minsarasarahair]

What? I just realized both Word of Honor and Are You OK have 36 episodes in total!! I love both shows and books, okay? I'm checking WOH again because I'm thinking how their adaption is similar to Are You OK. Like how Zhou Zishu and Lou Zhu have questionable morals in the source material but was changed into somewhat Hero role model for the drama or donghua?

Tian Ya Ke (Faraway Wanderers) book: Antiheroes pair who understand each other, Someone who don't feel remorse in his crimes x Someone who avenge his parents for justice that turn him into monster Shan He Ling (Word of Honor) drama: Heroes who made mistake and trying to change their ways for better, Someone who's guilty of his crimes x Someone who avenge his parents but he did it in morally acceptable way

You Yao (Medicine) book: Antihero who only care about what benefit him x Son of a villain who aspire to become a hero just because he simply don't like his dad but later realized its his choice to be morally good for himself You Yao (Are You OK?) donghua: Coward Hero in denial who has character development x Son of a villain who aspire to become hero because its the morally right thing to do

Both pair have power imbalance if you look at them. WenZhou are Shidi and Shixiong in WOH. In Are You OK, not only LouZuo have 10 years age gap but they are also have master-bodyguard, childhood hero-aspiring hero and mentor-student dynamic. Though I think You Yao handle the communication part way better. Sure, both pairs have fight in the first half of story but Are You OK's LouZuo is in sync in the later part so it didn't became a continuous problem unlike WOH WenZhou.

Note: If you're not familiar with You Yao, it has a completed donghua and its a danmei with 4 gay couples but definitely not romance driven. Its still a love story but very plot driven. You get which are the gay pairs with implication but story don't really explore it much. The main story happened during Zuo Yunqi's teenage years and Lou Zhu is at his 20s but they are definitely the end game after story. In one of the extra story, they only meet again after 5 years of the the main story ending and they somehow developed a long distance but healthy relationship where they send letters to keep each other updated. Lou Zhu is actually very supportive of ZYQ becoming a good person despite Lou Zhu himself having questionable morals lol Like WenZhou to Chengling?

For example, when their partner is hiding something. Instead of hiding it from only one character, You Yao hide it to 3 people so they can talk to each other. All of them are sad that their partner are hiding something from them so they can relate. You know the feeling of failing an exam but when you found out your friends failed it too, you feel much better? Maybe that's why its easier to accept it while in WOH, I feel I'm betrayed by everyone together with ZZS?

When the secret was exposed instead of letting Zhou Zishu be angry because his anger is valid, the other supporting characters joined to defend Wen Kexing. Zhou Zishu said "I'm not asking you" to those characters because its between him and Wen Kexing. In Are You Ok, one of the character tell his problem alone. Lou Zhu let him talk and listen to him patiently. If you watch the donghua, you'll see Lin Kai looking at Lou Zhu when they heard Xie Liang's report but Lou Zhu gestured him to wait and let Xie Liang finish speaking first. Then he tell him to get the other 2 guys who have the same problem so he can explain what's going on to them in one go. I just love how considerate Lou Zhu is to their feelings of being left behind and sad to whatever's going on. He can interrupt them to be insensitive about it but he didn't do it. One of the thing that made me uncomfortable in WOH is the cast are laughing and celebrating except for Zhou Zishu. At least in Are You OK, the revelation scene is a serious matter. They are not laughing in this scene. Take note that these two scenario are not present in the original material.

Lastly, the scene based from original material that have consequences. Wen Kexing leaving for Ghost Valley and Zuo Yunqi leaving for Pangmen.

TYK: Wen Kexing say his farewell to Zhou Zishu that he need to go back to Mt. Fengya to fix things but assure he'll be back for Zhou Zishu's surgery. Despite that, ZZS was still worried because of what happened before with Liang Jiuxiao so he chase after WKX just in case. Zhou Zishu manage to save the wounded Wen Kexing at the right time before he was killed. WOH: Wen Kexing didn't explain his plans and actually hide things from Zhou Zishu just because he's afraid it will make Zhou Zishu worry. After Zhou Zishu learned Zhang Chengling found out WKX's true identity, he got worried so he chase after WKX. Wen Kexing probably planned it not expecting Zhou Zishu to get involved so the situation gone out of hand. Zhou Zishu after witnessing WKX's fake death, decided to throw away his life too and remove the nails on his body. They didn't expect ZZS will do this.

You Yao book: After Zuo Yunqi drugged the doctor and witnessed his dad dying in front of him since he gave him the antidote that killed his dad, ZYQ is at his wits end searching for a solution to Lou Zhu's problem and have no time explaining so he return to Pangmen hoping to get an answer. Lou Zhu learning what happened, he understood quickly where ZYQ has gone to and tell his people to look for him just in case. ZYQ was found and returned almost dying but he stated few words about a gift before losing consciousness. Lou Zhu knew exactly he's talking about ZYQ's first gift to him but he didn't know what he should do with it. He think deeply and think of the options available but later manage to figure out what ZYQ is trying to say. Later, they found out ZYQ can't do martial arts anymore as consequence yet he still choose to lead Pangmen to prevent his people from doing bad deeds and decided to be an expert in poison to help others by making antidote instead of using poison to harm others. Are You Ok donghua: After ZYQ drugged the doctor and learning from his dying dad the he might find the antidote that will not kill his dad in Pangmen, he left a note to Lou Zhu that he'll be back quickly before he gone to Pangmen. Lou Zhu was worried but he decided to put his trust so he order the people to get back to work and not to worry about Zuo Yunqi's sudden disappearance. ZYQ returned heavily wounded but not dying. ZYQ tells Lou Zhu that what he gave to Lou Zhu before he became his bodyguard might be helpful to their problem. He no longer can perform martial arts but that's fine because he became a nutritionist and transformed the Pangmen from bad sect to a good sect that sell medicine for good health.

In TYK, You Yao book and Are You OK donghua; you can still see the the different faces of trust of each pair except for WOH. I think WOH probably works more if Wen Kexing really almost died instead of faking his death and the stake after what happened is not that high aka ZZS removing his nails. I wish Wen Kexing tell him or Zhou Zishu understood quickly what Wen Kexing is trying to do. Zhou Zishu is dying as consequence so its understandable that its VERY painful to watch just because of wrong decision. Because Book Zuo Yunqi didn't also tell his plan to Lou Zhu so he has no choice but to trust Lou Zhu's understanding of him hoping he will figure it out on his own and Book Lou Zhu didn't fail him. So even if Zuo Yunqi didn't tell it to Lou Zhu he still has the "trust" that Lou Zhu will be fine on his own with few hints he left behind.

Other WOH and Are You OK similarities: Red and Blue Couple, Other one has pretty long white hair at the end of story, Has Secret ending (Yeah, I call the China Mainland only episode of You Yao a secret ending because International platform didn't have it)

[apocalypticavolition]

Let's (re)Read The Great Hunt! Chapter 10: The Hunt Begins

This post probably has spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if that's not what you're into, don't keep reading.

This chapter starts us out with the Horn of Valere icon again, which... hell even if you shouldn't be reading this post because of the spoilers, you can probably piece together why a chapter called "The Hunt Begins" has it.

He kept his mouth shut, though. It was Lord Ingtar’s command; as friendly as he had been to Rand, he still would not appreciate a shepherd giving advice.

Rand demonstrating his keen leadership skills by being aware of the limitations of horses is both a good jibe at fantasy novels of the time (where horses needed less rest than the average car and had better range and mileage) and a nice way of contrasting how towards the end he won't be giving a fuck about anyone's limitations and push them all much harder than Ingtar is pushing these poor horses.

Rand tried to ride with Mat and Perrin, but when Rand let his horse drop back to them, Mat nudged Perrin, and Perrin reluctantly galloped to the head of the column with Mat.

I feel like this little bit of Mat being extra petty about this carries a lot of people's dislike of early Mat, because without the dagger he's actually not that bad even now.

Uno looked at Rand with his one eye, then shrugged and climbed into his saddle.

Uno isn't afraid to voice his opinion to his superiors 'cause he's a cool dude. He also is pretty convinced Rand is a lord too and thus could put Ingtar in his place - and probably has noticed the glances Rand's been giving the horses and is well aware that the boy agrees with him. I wonder how many of this ranging party specifically think that Ingtar being in charge is just the convenient fiction for this outlander lord who wants to pretend to be a shepherd. Like obviously Ingtar doesn't think that but Uno might...

“Do you like to run, Rand?” Loial laughed. “I do. I was the fastest in Stedding Shangtai. I outran a horse, once.”

That poor horse must have died of a heart attack shortly thereafter, what with the whole running at top speed and also having a huge thing like an Ogier keeping up with it.

It was not hard—there were few personal bundles among the supplies—but when he had it open, he let out a shout that brought every man in the camp erect with sword in hand.

Everyone of course just thinks Rand's bitching about the coats is him being pissy that Moiraine won't let him play at being a shepherd.

Also it's adorable how Moiraine thinks she's fulfilling prophecy with the heron-marked jackets.

I can always go naked, he thought bitterly.

*desperately presses random symbols on the nearest Portal Stone to find the nudist!Rand Mirror World*

“We didn’t bloody bring enough for you to be spilling it on the flaming ground.” The one-eyed man looked at Rand and left. Masema rubbed his ear, but his glare followed Rand.

So Masema's obviously pissy about this upstart foreigner Aiel-look-a-like putting on airs and terrifying everyone in the camp, but Uno's just doing whatever it takes to get a chance to challenge Rand to a friendly duel.

“I ask no questions, mind. If Lan Dai Shan and Moiraine Sedai want to say you are from Andor, from the Two Rivers, then you are. But Masema can’t get the look of the Aiel out of his head, and when he sees you. . . .”

It's really fascinating how Masema's perspective on Rand does such a huge 180. Bruh is an absolute fanatic about whatever his beliefs are, they just aren't necessarily logical evolutions from each other.

“I grew up with him, though you’d never know it now. You put this Aiel nonsense in his head on top of what’s already there, and the Light knows what we’ll have. An Aiel lord, maybe.”

Mat: Absolute savage and accidental prophet.

But they do let the Tuatha’an, the Traveling People, cross the Waste. And they don’t see Ogier as enemies, either, though I doubt any of us would want to go out into the Waste.

It's also a nice bit of realism that as soon as someone tries to simplify the Other as seeing the world purely in terms of themselves and their enemies, someone else can point out that no, it's not really that simple. It's not even really the case that the Aiel see the Wetlanders as enemies exactly, since they clearly could have engaged in warfare against them long ago and won.

When Rand finally settled down for the night, his head hummed with unwanted thoughts. Image of an Aielman. Moiraine Sedai wants to say you’re from the Two Rivers. Aiel ravaged all the way to Tar Valon. Born on the slopes of Dragonmount. The Dragon Reborn.

Bro can't even stay in denial anymore, though he does try a little. At this point it would literally take one more person calling him Aiel for him to snap though.

“Is this what a Darkfriend camp looks like? Smells a bit, but I can’t say it looks any different from anybody else’s.” He kicked at one of the ash heaps, knocking out a piece of burned bone, and stooped to pick it up. “What do Darkfriends eat? Doesn’t look like a sheep bone, or a cow.”

The one way in life that Mat isn't lucky is that if he can lose his dignity in literally any way, he absolutely will. It's where all his bad dice rolls go.

“We’ll waste no time burying Darkfriends,” Ingtar growled. “We ride south.” He suited his own words almost before they were out of his mouth.

Oftentimes, truly hateful vehemence comes from those who are closest to that which they despise. Just saying.

He reminded them of the charge the Amyrlin Seat had given them, to recover the Horn of Valere, and let nothing bar their way. He spoke of the glory they would have, their names remembered in story and history, in gleemen’s tales and bards’ songs, the men who found the Horn.

Ironically, we don't know the names of the whole party, so that didn't really work for them.

“I don’t like the smell of this place,” Perrin muttered as they came among the houses. Hurin gave him a look, and he stared back until Hurin dropped his eyes. “It smells wrong.”

Perrin the Yellow-Eyed Wolf Boy: Don't think we're the same, nose freak!

“Don’t frighten her!” Ingtar shouted. “Uno, we need information. The Light blind you, Uno, don’t frighten her!” The one-eyed man disappeared through the open door. Ingtar raised his voice again. “We will not harm you, good lady. We are Lord Agelmar’s oathmen, from Fal Dara. Do not be afraid! We will not harm you.”

I wonder if Lanfear really meant to be seen here to increase the sense of unease or if she was totally just going, "It won't hurt if I take a little peak at Lews through the window, these dumb third agers probably don't even know what up is, oh crap!"

“I fear the Darkfriends took them, Rand,” Loial said slowly. He grimaced, almost a snarl with his broad nose like a snout. “For the Trollocs.” Rand swallowed and wished he had not asked; it was never pleasant to think on how Trollocs fed.

Rand: They're okay right?

Loial: They. Were. Eaten. By. Demons. We're. Hunting. Demons. DEMONS!

He's so patient with the country boy.

“My Lord, you must see for yourself. The big stoneoak, fifty paces south from the landing. I cannot say the words. You must see it yourself.”

Jesus, it's like a Star Trek episode.

Mat waited until the last minute, when one of the Shienarans was untying the ferry, before he kicked his horse and crowded aboard. “I have to come sooner or later, don’t I?” he said, breathless, to no one in particular. “I have to find it.”

It's kind of a shame Mat didn't get any POVs in this book, because whatever the hell is going on in his head has to be a lot more interesting than the fandom gives him credit for. This is one of at least two big internal struggles we hear almost nothing about. Is he extra unhappy with Rand because he thinks that unlike him and Perrin, he's only benefiting from the adventure they're on? Does he think Rand's being selfish by being all, "Fuck you guys, I'm out" while Mat desperately wants out (he always does) but is forced to admit here that he has no future that doesn't pass through the Dagger?

“This is how we left home,” Perrin said suddenly. “At Taren Ferry. The ferrymen’s boots clunking on the deck, and the water gurgling around the ferry. This is how we left. It will be worse, this time.”

Likewise it sucks that we don't get any fun Perrin POVs just yet because he too is clearly going through all kinds of bullshit and Rand's even less aware of it than he is of Mat's stuff. "How can it be worse?" he asks, as if there's a Baerlon waiting for them only a week out. As if they have the world's most competent Aes Sedai/Warder duo at their side. As if Egwene is there, and Nynaeve to join soon, to help them think of home. As if all three boys aren't already changed permanently by what's happened but are nowhere near done with their transformations.

Rand's hilariously oblivious sometimes, you know? And so's Mat, since he agrees.

Then he recognized the two faces. Changu, and the other man who had been on guard with him. Nidao. Eyes staring, teeth bared in a rictus of pain. They had lived a long time after it began.

Poor bastards.

“Cut them down,” Ingtar said harshly. He hesitated a moment, then added, “Bury them. We cannot be sure they were Darkfriends. They could have been taken prisoner. They could have been. Let them know the last embrace of the mother, at least.”

Even Ingtar's had character growth this chapter! Is he already realizing that his extremism means he deserves the same ignominy and is softening himself in the hopes of mercy for himself? Is he genuinely uncertain as to Changu and Nidao's affiliation (perhaps they weren't in his sect of Darkfriends or even really were innocent) and thus erring on the side of kindness? Hard to say!

“Shienarans believe we all came from earth, and must return to earth. They never use coffins or shrouds, and the bodies are never clothed. The earth must hold the body. The last embrace of the mother, they call it. And there are never any words except ‘The Light shine on you, and the Creator shelter you. The last embrace of the mother welcome you home.’ ”

The Shienarans seem to have a very prototypical Earth Mother belief that will no doubt blossom into that very concept given enough time. It seems pretty early for that though; either Jordan thinks Earth Mother is very universal or he expected that there'd be some extra steps along the way (perhaps eventually the descendant organizations of Aes Sedai / Wise Ones etc. become the monopoly on the Singing?)

“Then who shot the arrow at—at the Amyrlin?” Rand swallowed. Who shot at me? Loial said nothing.

Lucky for Rand, Loial's not street smart enough to realize that his stuttering isn't a natural effect of the horrifying treatment of the corpses but because of a near slip. He's also not street smart enough to realize that Ingtar did the Dog Gate slaying, which further points to the innocence of these two poor bastards. But on the other hand I already said they were guilty so they're definitely burning in hell. Can't change my mind. Looks weak.

“They saved Lord Agelmar at Tarwin’s Gap,” he said. Several of the lancers nodded.

Ingtar's probably extra uncomfortable about this because his Darkfriend orders at the time were to get Agelmar killed or something.

Occasionally Rand saw what might have been a farmhouse in the distance, and once what he thought was a village, with smoke rising from chimneys a few miles off and something flashing white in the sun, but the land near them stayed empty of human life, long swathes of grass dotted with brush and occasional trees, with now and again a small thicket, never more than a hundred paces across.

Fascinating that the villages of Shienar, which presumably face all kinds of population problems what with the state of eternal warfare and all, manage to be denser and more prosperous than people living in this relatively decent grassland where there's no military pressures on them at all.

“It is not there any longer, Builder. When Hawkwing died, the ones who fought over his empire could not bear to leave a monument to a victory of his, even if it did not mention his name. There’s nothing left but the mound where it stood. In three or four days we can see that, at least.”

Maybe the bad juju of tearing down a perfectly good monument mixed with all the contaminating Trolloc blood led to them all dying out en masse, you know?

“I’ve seen an old map,” Rand replied in a tight voice. “I know about the nations that aren’t there anymore. Maredo, and Goaban, and Caralain. But there wasn’t any Hardan on it.”

Well that's very confusing, because all of those nations collapsed before Hardan. Must be a shit map.

Crops failed, or trade failed. People failed. Something failed in each case, and the nation dwindled.

I wonder if the Dark One's been able to affect the weather to some degree or another this whole time and only once the first seal broke was he able to pull out the "eternal winter over the whole land" gambit. It would explain just how badly humanity's been doing the past thousand years, with the long game finally paying off.

We are being swept away, humankind. Swept away like flotsam on a flood. How long until there is nothing left but the Borderlands? How long before we, too, go under, and there is nothing left but Trollocs and Myrddraal all the way to the Sea of Storms?

And so Ingtar explains why he fell to the Shadow - but even without all of the upheaval Rand brings, we've already got some clear rumblings that the game was going to change and that Ingtar's giving into despair was a personal failing. Elayne was being set up to be an Aes Sedai queen of Andor, ruling for hundreds of years and hopefully keeping the land unified. Pedron Niall wanted to restore Almoth to its former glory - under his hand, but still. The Seanchan invasion would have, without interruption, restored "civilization" to a good deal of the wilderness.

Also points to Ingtar for some realistic blind spots in another way: he assumes the Borderlands will be the last to fall even though the most recent national failing was Malkier.

There was no gate in the one opening he could see in the wall, but he supposed it could be blocked easily enough with a cart or wagon.

Honestly with population density and armed banditry being as rare as it is, blocking the gate may genuinely not be something these people feel they need to resort to.

Cairhien did claim this land, once the last King of Hardan died. All the way to the Erinin, they claimed it. They could not hold it, though. They gave up the claim nearly a hundred years ago.

Well if the Cairhieniens wanted it, and the former Hardani wanted it, what exactly was the issue? Were the tax collectors just unable to make it this far north consistently?

The table was set for a meal, ladder-back chairs gathered around, some plates already served. A few flies buzzed above bowls of turnips and peas, and more crawled on a cold roast sitting in its own congealed grease. There was a slice half carved from the roast, the fork still standing stuck in the meat and the carving knife lying partway in the platter as if dropped. Rand stepped inside. Blink.

Look I'm just gonna say it. The blinking and the flickering is some of the top tier Wheel stuff and people would have been infinitely more forgiving of the slog if it involved more of it. Even if the only thing flickering about Elayne's bath scene was that every time she blinked the fragrance of the soap she was using changed, people would have eaten that shit up and rated Crossroads of Twilight 7 out of 5 stars.

Rand could not move. The flies buzzing over the table sounded louder. His breath made a cloud in front of his mouth.

The flies are pretty strongly emphasized in this sequence, which make me wonder if they're connected to whatever weird magic Fain was using in this scene.

Also worth noting that originally this was supposed to be Lanfear's trap, but that this got changed. Frankly it's a damn shame she couldn't take time out of her stalker ex practices to quickly kill Fain before he became an actual kerfuffle.

Suddenly he was tearing at . . . something. He did not know what, or how. Cobwebs made of steel. Moonbeams carved from stone. They crumbled at his touch, but he knew he had not touched anything. They shriveled and melted with the heat that surged through him, heat like a forge fire, heat like the world burning, heat like—

Fain really breaks the magic systems, doesn't he? It's way less coherent than the established magical systems And yet Rand's use of saidin manages to take care of things.

Those black clothes, blacker than black, had never been worn by any human. The wind flapped an end of the cloak caught behind the body—which it did not always, he knew too well; the wind did not always touch those clothes—but there had never been any eyes in that pale, bloodless face.

I love how terrifying this early Fain stuff is, which really just makes it all the more frustrating that he completely loses all relevance as the series goes on. Book 7 Fain could never be this cool. Book 14 Fain couldn't even get into the same sentence as. These other Fains. What was Jordan planning on doing with him? Why did he lose the plot so thoroughly? Will we ever find something in his notes that makes it make sense?

We'll probably never know. Oh well. Next time: more hunting!

[rikki-roses]

Fluffy February Day 19: Shadow

SWTOR

Time period: Rishi during Shadows of Revan

Pairing: Setra Rowan and her bff/body guard/hunting buddy/token grandfather Qyzen Fess. Brief mention of early Setra Rowan/Theron Shan.

Bit more hunting and archaeology fluff today. Calling it Space Weed for now because idk if there's an in-canon name for it - Setra uses it medicinally and for Jedi rituals, both in combination with the Force. Also TW I guess for reference to drug use.

This is a zhaboka, since I can't remember if I've posted it before:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Setra had always been at home in the shadows. Ever since she was a child, studying as a Jedi youngling with her twin sister, she'd felt comfortable enveloping herself in the shadows and the Force so that she could sneak around and study in peace. That skill had come in handy as an adult when Qyzen started to take her hunting with him, allowing her to ambush their prey.

She allowed the shadows to envelope again her as she, Paws, and Qyzen stalked the star'kla along the beach. She held her zhaboka at the ready, her dualsaber left behind with Nadia; it was frowned upon (by both the Jedi Code and Trandoshan hunting customs) to hunt with it, so she relied on her ancestral weapon instead.

They hadn't initially planned on hunting the beast, but this beach was a popular tourist spot (and one that Setra and her crew had already visited off-duty), and the locals at Raider's Cove had placed a generous bounty on it after their own efforts to drive the star'kla away had failed.

A bounty, her crew pointed out, that Setra could use to bribe the pirates into giving her some of the relics they'd dug up so she could conduct actual research on them, and send back to Tython for proper caretaking (after ensuring that they didn't currently belong to anyone living, of course); the Jedi did not have many Rishii artifacts. Setra might even be able to set up a proper exhibit with them. Not to mention that any extra could be used to replace Setra's personal alcohol and Space Weed stores.

And so, she, her nexu, and Qyzen waited in the shadows. While the star'kla hadn't taken notice of them, Setra still played it safe and called on the Force to wrap around them, further disguising their approach. They waited and tracked for hours, until the star'kla stopped, hunched over, and started to eat some unfortunate creature.

Qyzen gave her the signal; with a whisper, hand sign, and pat on Paws' rump from Setra, the nexu took off across the sand, getting the attention of the star'kla. Once distracted, Qyzen rushed in with a roar, Setra hot on his heels, bare toes digging into the sand.

It was a short fight; they had struck before the beast fully realized they were attacking. Setra got the kill, climbing up the beast's back and driving one blade of her zhaboka into the base of the star'kla's skull. Jumping back down to the sand, they made quick work dismembering the star'kla for easy transportation back to Raider's Cove.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In the end, they traded for more than just the bounty; various pirates and hunters wanted various parts of the star'kla beyond what Setra and Qyzen had claimed as their personal trophies. Setra had tried to hide their little excursion from Lana and Theron - she hadn't exactly told them that she liked to hunt, since it was unusual for Jedi to do so - only for Jakarro to bust her when the Wookie discovered he hadn't been included in that day's antics.

While Lana had been mildly horrified when Setra showed off the giant tooth she'd claimed, Theron had been impressed, immediately inspecting her zhaboka and asking about her technique. Setra was all too happy to go into detail, immediately launching into an impromptu lesson on her weapon's history and use. Neither one of them noticed Lana smirking as they stood together, or when Lana dragged a nosy Jakarro away "to help her with an important mission".

For once, she didn't miss the shadows when she and Theron went to stargaze on the beach that night.

[astudyinpanda]

I see some nice things about the Ahsoka + Sabine relationship presented in the show! Since we don't have all the information about that relationship yet, I'm offering my first impressions. This list is all SPOILERS for the first two episodes (and some bits from the Mandalorian, The Clone Wars, and Rebels).

I like that someone with a low connection to the Force is getting screen time finally!

What if Sabine ends up with the Darksaber again? More lightsaber training would be useful!

People with low/no connection to the Force are not safe from dark side users, so I like that Ahsoka's training Sabine to defend herself.

Either a) Sabine's connection to the Force let her use her engineering skills, knowledge, and insights without the life experience to know what impact her inventions will have on the galaxy, which is a way those weapons she made for the Empire could've happened, or b) every super-skilled individual has a little extra Force connectivity, which is cute and would piss off Han Solo so much. I don't think a low Force connection undercuts her expertise.

Next to Ezra, Sabine's connection to the Force probably would've looked no different than any other living being's connection. I don't think her low Force connection undercuts Kanan's expertise, either.

Can everybody benefit from Jedi training, as long as they don't buy into the philosophy too hard (looking at you, Theron Shan)? Fun!

We know from the Mandalorian that Ahsoka's not interested in training people. Therefor, she has not learned how. Teaching is a skill. I don't think failing the first time she gets serious about it makes her look stupid or mean.

Similarly, Sabine is self-taught in almost everything she does these days, and the Mandalorian training regime we've seen in the shows has been very different from the small-groups, didactic Jedi training we've seen. Failing at Jedi-style training the first time she gets serious about it as a student also doesn't make her look stupid or mean.

SO! Those are some bits of their master/student relationship I like/don't dislike. You are of course welcome to think whatever, but the discourse I saw on the subject was missing some positive points.

[joyouslee]

MLC Chinese fic rec:人鬼不殊途 by 小宝贝儿

Link to the author’s of the fic.

(To get to the first chapter, go to the end of the story text before the comments and click the left button.  There may be other posts by the author in between the chapters, just keep clicking left.)

My translation of the title:

Death Will Not Part.

(The literal translation is man and ghost do not walk on different paths, which is a reversal of an idiom that states that man and ghost are on different paths, meaning that death is a dividing line and man and ghosts cannot be together; sometimes used to say that good and evil people cannot be together.)  

The first chapter (arc) subtitle is “Even after becoming a ghost, Fang Xiaobao is still clingy.”

Pairing: Li Lianhua | Li Xiangyi / Fang Duobing

Author’s summary:

The story starts after the point in the drama when Fang Xiaobo, in order to find the wangchuan flower, is thrown by Shan Gudao into the array.  

The setup: Fang Duobing passes out once he enters the array, and when he wakes up he finds that he’s a ghost.  

He faces three major challenges: he can’t find his body, can’t be touched by sunlight, and can’t touch anyone.  His only support: Li LIanhua can see him, hear him, and will try to save him.  (At the beginning, Huahua thinks he’s hallucinating due to bicha poison entering his brain.) 

The advantages of being a ghost: walking through walls, invisibility, mn… later might have some powers.  (Ghost Xiaobao needs a little power.)

In summation, this is a story where Li Lianhua tried to find Shan Gudao’s corpse for 10 years, then started to search for Fang Xiaobao’s corpse or body.  (A Huahua who is always on the road to search for a corpse.)  The difference is, this time ghost!Xiaobao will be accompanying him the entire way, and after turning into a ghost is still the chattiest kind of ghost.  Huahua won’t be lonely on the road, just often seen as being crazy.  

—

77 chapters total, plus author is in process of writing a long extra (10 chapters already)

Ok, the beginning starts with Fang Duobing wandering back to Li Lianhua as a ghost after falling into the array, which seems like it is the start of a tragedy, but it really is the most hilarious fic.  My favorite part is mid-way in the story where there is a literal laugh-until-I-cried scene of the absolute chaos caused by a body swap/possession, resulting in several scenes of increasing hilarity and confusion as jianghu gossip blows up regarding a *gasp* relationship between Fang Duobing and … Di Feisheng.  Wuyan is the biggest difang shipper ever.  Author has impeccable comedic chops: just imagine Fang Duobing’s attitude/ LXY-fanboy-isms in Li Lianhua’s body, and then think of Li Lianhua watching in horror - I’m cackling again just recalling it.

Go read and come back to talk about it!

See my general warnings.

Below the read more are some specific warnings for this fic.  

Nonconsensual blood exchange/ ritual to tie two lives together

Implied nonconsensual (drugged) sex that is treated as a joke

Ethnic discrimination/ stereotypes 

Canon age gap

Apparent suicide

[cyrrenereads]

Shan You Mu Xi (山有木兮) Translation Project Page

Translated by: cyrrene

Original: JJWXC by Feitian Yexian (非天夜翔)

Translations hosted on: Chickengege.org. Access requires Proof of Purchase. Please read the instructions, then fill out this form. Everyone is welcome to submit. If you have been verified in the Secret Code discord, please select Verified at the end of the first section and your form will be fast-tracked for approval.

Total Chapters: 200 (+3 extras as of now)

Other links: Glossary, Map, Character List | NU

Synopsis:

There are trees in the mountains and there are branches on the trees,

I adore you, oh! You do not know.

- from “Song of the Yue Boatman”

Hundreds of rivers converge, the thousand-mile rise of Taishan’s bluffs, and a myriad of waves surge in the Eastern Sea.

All beneath the heavens, is the extent of the ruler’s land. All within the territory of a state, are each the ruler’s subjects.

Beacons light up all over the Divine Land, danger lurks in every corner of the State of Yong.

After reuniting with Geng Shu, Jiang Heng begins to put all his effort into assisting the ruler of Yong State’s plans, but he unexpectedly falls into perilous situations time and time again. Geng Shu, who always accompanied Jiang Heng by his side, is acutely aware that the various mishaps all appear to be closely related to Jiang Heng’s past—was Jiang Heng really his own blood-related younger brother?

These two extraordinary young men wander throughout the country from state to state, experiencing trials, however, the truth obtained uncovered a cruel and unexpected past that couldn’t be erased. The lingering heroic spirits each possess their own unfulfilled long-cherished wishes. With the great Divine Land【1】 finally unified, how would they confront their own choices of the future?

The seven stars of the Northern Sky【2】 bore witness to the end of a stormy period of history,

Until the ruins once again transform into the richly ornamented tall towers of a manor.

When the blazing city lights languidly flicker,

Those people and events worth engraving into memory

Will forever be preserved within every stroke of ink in a painting of this vast expanse of rivers and mountains.

Table of Contents (Translation Progress):

*Note: Progress may show future unlinked chapters to what is currently posted. Translations for those chapters have been drafted, but final edits are pending and unreleased.

Prologue: Cry of the Qin Resounds Across the Realm (琴鸣天下)

— The blind qin master sat in the midst of the hall, playing the qin and performing the last song of his life.

001 | 002

Volume 1: Ambush from Ten Sides (十面埋伏【3】)

— While within this magnificent and eternally vast universe…sometimes, at just the slightest turn, loved ones would thereafter be separated in life as if in death.

003 | 004 | 005 | 006 | 007

008 | 009 | 010 | 011 | 012

013 | 014 | 015 | 016 | 017

018 | 019 | 020 | 021 | 022

Volume 2: Let Me Return! (归去来辞【4】)

— “If Jiang Heng is still alive, we’ll definitely meet again.”

023 | 024 | 025 | 026 | 027

028 | 029 | 030 | 031 | 032

033 | 034 | 035 | 036 | 037

038 | 039 | 040 | 041 | 042

043 | 044 | 045 | 046

Volume 3: Wild Geese Alight Upon the Sandbank (落雁平沙【5】)

— High above the city gates, that ancient bell conferred to the Ye clan by the Son of Heaven of Jin rang with a thunderous clangor. What night is tonight? The prince has returned to his country.

047 | 048 | 049 | 050 | 051

052 | 053 | 054 | 055 | 056

057 | 058 | 059 | 060 | 061

062,| 063 | 064 | 065 | 066

067 | 068 | 069 | 070 | 071

072 | 073 | 074 | 075

Volume 4: The Phoenix Seeks His Mate (凤求凰【6】) / Guangling Melody (广陵散【7】)

— People will die someday, but their torch will pass on to successors and in so doing, it will burn across the land forever. There is bound to be someone to finish what must be done.

076 | 077 | 078 | 079 | 080

081 | 082 | 083 | 084 | 085

086 | 087 | 088 | 089 | 090

091 | 092 | 093 | 094 | 095

096 | 097 | 098 | 099 | 100

101 | 102 | 103 | 104 | 105

106 | 107 | 108 | 109

Ex 1

->Volumes 5-7

Footnotes:

【1】 Shenzhou (神州) is an ancient name for China.

【2】 The Chinese constellation focused on in this novel is the Xuanwu (玄武, or Black Tortoise). It is both a god as well as a constellation in ancient China regarded as one of the four symbols. When referring to the constellation, it’s also known as the ‘seven stars of the Northern dipper’ (北斗七星).

【3】 Ambush from Ten Sides 《十面埋伏》 is the name of a classical pipa song, and is about the Battle of Gaixia when Xiang Yu was defeated by Liu Bang.

【4】 The title of Volume 2 is the name of a poem written by the poet Tao Yuanming of the Six Dynasties period when he resigned from office to live in the countryside. There is an article with a translation and more detail about it here.

【5】 There is a qin piece called 雁落平沙 “Wild Geese Alight Upon the Sandbank”, evoking the scene of thousands of wild geese calling while landing and flying off from the sandbanks.

【6】Volume 4 of the web novel and the simplified physical print have different names. The web novel version is titled after 《The Male Phoenix Seeks its Mate - 凤求凰》, a famous qin melody with lyrics that depicts one of the most well-known love stories.

【7】 The simplified physical version is named after 《Guangling Melody - 广陵散》, a well-known qin melody associated with the qin-master Ji Kang (嵇康, 223–262)) as well as the famous story of 《Nie Zheng Assassinates the Han King - 聂政刺韩王》 from the Warring States period which was inspired by a story for the same figure in Sima Qian’s《Records of the Grand Historian - 史记》.

[yuexuan]

[Review]画怖

Title: 画怖 Paintings of Terror

Author: 瑆玥

Length: 380 + 2 extras

Rating: E (for horror/gory elements)

Tag: infinite flow, horror, mystery

Summary [taken from novel updates]:

If Ke Xun could do it again, he would have never left his house to go out and flirt with guys, even if it would mean getting beaten to death.

Weren’t they supposed to have just been taking shelter from the rain in a museum and looking at some erot*c paintings while they were at it? Why…did they enter the world inside a painting?!

Mu Yiran: Every single one of us is acting out a role in the painting.

Ke Xun’s eyes lit up: How do we get into an erot*c painting?

Mu Yiran gave him a long, drawn-out look: Shut your eyes and lie down.

Novel[translated]

Comments **contains spoilers**:

One day, Ke Xun and his bestie Wei Dong entered an art exhibition to avoid the rain. Instead, they found themselves transported into one of the paintings, kickstarting their journey of going through multiple paintings in different art exhibitions. Their goal? To survive the paintings, find the artist’s signature/seal, and solve the larger mystery of why this is happening. 

And maybe, have time for some romance in between. 

*

This novel reminded me a lot of Kaleidoscope of Death, in terms of the level of horror, humor, mechanics (e.g. people who died in the paintings would also die soon thereafter in the real world for unknown reasons), and the main character’s personality (i.e. shameless Ke Xun vs shameless Ruan Nanzhu lol). Even the ending style, with the what-the-fuck-ery, is very reminiscent. So if you like KOD, chances are, you’ll also enjoy POT.

Highlights:

Each painting has a complex worldbuilding with a message behind it. The painting that fascinates me most is probably the “Animal World”, where humans and livestocks exchanged their roles. It seems like a criticism about industrial farming and some of the inhumane practices in the industry (Ironically, this might be one of the reasons - per rumors - the novel is no longer hosted on jjwxc, on account that it depicts and possibly criticizes certain aspects of China, especially in regards to homophobia). But even more impressive is how the author ties together all the different paintings and their hints at the end. Hence the latter part of the novel is heavily invested in mystery-solving with a lot of big brain moments.

I’ll say the horror element in this story is top-tier. Not just in the spooky scary way, but in a dystopian way. Just *chef kiss* 

One thing I do find refreshing about this novel is that there is an explanation for why certain characters are so good at surviving. In a lot of infinite flow novels, the stories are structured in a way that the protagonist and his few selected friends are often incredibly lucky and/or incredibly smart in every subject - even though they are sometimes just normal students. But POT provides a reason: that is, the characters have been specifically selected by a higher force so that their specialty can ensure their survival (e.g. a doctor being selected for a painting requiring medical knowledge). 

Some of the side characters are fun - such as Wei Dong and ‘carrot’, who provided nice comic relief. I also like Fang Fei, one of the few surviving female characters in the story. Also, love the Dong Fang pairing, they are quite cute together. 

The ending is a wild ride. I love the mix of science and history behind the Shan Hai painting. That said, there are some parts that are just pure information dump and can make for difficulty understanding.

Things I don’t like

Even though I said that every character was selected for their specialty, it still doesn’t hide the fact that ML is too OP. He is an art collector and has some knowledge of the paintings, but he also possessed knowledge beyond his realm of expertise, even going so far as to be able to acquire weaponry…I’ll say he is the standard stoic gong that doesn’t inspire a lot of interest as a character.

Female characters - As with a lot of infinite flow danmeis (and danmei in general), female characters get shunned and disposed of easily…But for some reason this novel just rubs me off even more than the rest. I think it has to do with the fact that a lot of the female characters are quite competent, but they were casted in a bad light, in comparison to male characters that had similar qualities. E.g. Sha Liu - she was actually really knowledgeable and while her interpretation of the clues weren’t completely correct, the main characters seemed unfairly critical to her explanations and didn’t even care if she died??? Basically, until the latter ⅓ of the story, you can bet that most female characters are getting axed, and those that get left (with the exception of Fang Fei), are just seemingly there for narrative convenience.

[the-darkness-does-not-bargain]

(here i go again)

see i could see shannon going either way - being a massive mage-supporter who wouldn’t blink at blood magic; having that very Warden attitude of ‘we do whatever it takes to stop the Blight,’ & i could see ava being in Kinloch when it was overrun with demons, maybe even being possessed? she would have been a bit younger (Origins is 9:30 dragon and the conclave is around 9:41) & i feel like Shan would have maybe done a Conor-type thing to free her from possession (maybe already knowing how to do it? from Redcliffe?). But I don’t imagine things improved in Kinloch after what happened, so we’d still have a bunch of traumatised people locked in a tower together, and Frances could still believe that ava is vulnerable to possession and decide to kill her before she becomes an abomination (for no reason, because ava, being a spirit healer, is really very resistant to demons, having her Hope spirit and its demesne to retreat to in the Fade). & i think we know from Anders (not to mention Wynne!) that spirits are very much capable of intervening when their mage is dying, it is perfectly possible that Hope could decide to help her survive, and it might physically take her into the Fade and the pair of them end up at the Conclave (drawn, as demons and spirits are, by all of the emotions at play there) and then Ava maybe interrupts the ritual & is pulled back into the Fade as in inquisition. and you are so correct! hope is really in tune with what the Halo is and the abilities it gives to ava. of course the magical scholarship surrounding abilities like that!! almost makes me want to say that Dorian should be there. he would faint from fascination. 

re: Halo abilities. i am still so enamoured with the DAO spell list that i kind of want to make allusions to it when talking about magic, even though we have a much-reduced pool of them in DAI. so, in terms of what might suit the halo in terms of flavour. also some spells ava could reasonably just know, because she’s a spirit-healer. 

barrier (but also arcane shield, which is a sustained abiltity, could account for ava being extra-durable)

fireball (because it has knockdown in DAO; sounds like it could easily be reskinned as ‘halo-blast’.)

heal/rejuvenation/regeneration/mass rejeneration (yes basically the entire Creation school from dao)

heroic offence/ heroic aura (very enamoured with the idea of ava buffing her teammates.)

haste (works the same as Dnd and is just !!!! amazing as a concept. the halo making her super fast but when it fades she gets hit with a wave of exhaustion. flavourful for writing fight scenes. she could also cast haste on bea)

glyph of repulsion (kind of a halo-blast/your repel doubt ability idea)

glyph of warding (circle of protection. sounds like the halo blasting wraiths away/ clearing possession)

(sorry on an extra extra side-note i LOVE the idea that ava could potentially heal people of possession using her spirit/anchor/mage combo. that would… really be a big deal in thedas, and the Chantry would lowkey be threatened by it)

a couple of spells i just think are cool/ ava might learn:

walking bomb/ virulent walking bomb

mana clash

force field/ telekinetic weapons/ crushing prison

spirit healer stuff: so group heal/ lifeward (!!)/ cleansing aura (VERY halo-adjacent)

that aside (sorry you wrote one line and i went insane but here we are), i also think there should just be some unique halo-like stuff. definitely the levitating and phasing (i mean, actually, that’s Fade-Step, but better). 

yeah, Ava would be like ‘lol we’re not approaching the Templars. they can line up to kiss my ass’. but idk maybe she’s got a complicated relationship with the rebels because they fled the circle and left her with the Templars? who killed her? or they left her in Aeonar? & yeah she really dislikes loyalist mages, since they’re either just fucking a Templar or brainwashed by the Chantry (in her opinion) but meeting Bea changes her mind and also changes Bea’s mind - especially when she learns that perfectly innocent people are sent to Aeonar, where the veil is thin and they are basically guaranteed to get possessed. (i love how DA2 and DAI just ignore that Aeonar exists, but i do not forget. just because they want to backtrack on how BAD the circles are so they can present things as ‘both sides are correct’ in inquisition & in Kirkwall) oh, In Hushed Whispers is always so so exciting for character development, bc it lets you safely (lol) just murder loads of the characters and make the protagonist react to it. (sorry ava) but seriously bea doing a leliana at the end of In Hushed Whispers? i would die. (argument for Dorian being there, because otherwise Bea is the only person who might be able to figure out time magic on the fly with her enormous brain) and yeah, i think that would be the moment when Ava gets serious about helping the Inquisition and she starts stepping up and taking charge during decisions. 

haha and there’s that popular song ‘Andraste’s mabari’. she would also fully shift into a nug when mother superion is mad at her because she, like leliana, just melts at the sight of an adorable nug. oh, and ava would want to shift into something that can fly, like Morrigan’s raven-form. hard pass on the giant spider though. 

yeah MS would fit leliana’s role during the Blight, especially when we see how different leliana is in inquisition vs. in origins. gosh maybe she could even be an ex-warden or something, but a bit like Grand Enchanter Fiona have been ‘cured’ (a parallel to her having & losing the halo) but she still lowkey gets the bad darkspawn dreams & people are a bit in awe of her because she’s a bard and a warden and now she’s a spymaster and it’s just kind of incredibly sexy of her. Jillian definitely feels this way lol. & yeah, Cam has Sera energy (& Sera is pretty Andrastian, just in a quirky way) and LOVES pranks. 

yeah idk i mean either that or mary is also a grey warden & she fills the Hawke/ Stroud/ Alistair role in Crestwood (though i like her just being a party member so idk). i’m not going to suggest we leave her in the fade if that happens but also Shannon HoF being like ‘you what!!??’ and making ava take her into the Fade to rescue Mary would be chef’s kiss. And yeah, the wardens never stop hunting darkspawn, so it makes sense they might be scattered a bit, especially if there are rumours that somebody (corphy-face) might have an archdemon & also be one of the original magisters who caused the Blight. but yeah, she would see some Anders in Ava - his brighter parts, like in DA Awakening - and also his dedication to his clinic and his care for all the downtrodden in Kirkwall, but Ava doesn’t lose control because her spirit isn’t so black/white about situations and anyway doesn’t have the same kind of bond with her as Anders/Justice. Yeah, and Ava likes Anders’ ideas. idk if she’d be 100% pro blow-up-the-chantry, but she would defend the fact that he campaigned peacefully for years prior to taking drastic action. 

Solas would, i think, really like Ava despite himself, because yes she is very bright and she embodies hope and he loves spirits (think of his affection for Cole, if we’re seeing Ava as kind of our Cole and also the Herald) but they just don’t get along in practice. but i think he does become her friend, and have that high-approval ending to Inquisition where he kind of apologises and tells you nothing but is clearly anguished pre-trespasser. 

oh yes, i mean either they knew each other from Court or from the Montissmard Circle, or something (ik Bea sounds Ferelden and not Orlesian, but they do exchange mages from powerful families, and lol her family could totally have moved her around if they wanted). & yeah Viv and Ava are fire and ice & it’s messy and snippy, but Ava is good at seeing the best in people and they do end up as friends, + yeah she would never betray someone like that even if she didn’t like them. 

Iron Bull throwing Ava at Venatori (cue halo-blast) is everything. incredible. 

oh! yes Bea is basically always there. she’s the LI so sorry lads she’s going on every mission, literally don’t care if two mages is unbalanced. (it’s actually pretty good generally!) then rogue cam is there a bunch, & mary as a kind of hybrid warrior/rogue. she’s got the caltrops thing that varric has and does a lot of crowd control. then yeah Lilith sometimes (she and Bea actually get along very well, since seekers are typically like Cas better predisposed towards mages who are loyal. so Bea persuades ava to take Lilith when she thinks they need her. dealing with templars especially because they can divine smite bea and ava which canonically is Really debilitating for mages, even if the ability sucks in Inquisition). lol ava rolling up to lilith like ‘yk templars basically have mage abilities? like fr they can do some of the same stuff as me for pretty much the same reasons.’ Lilith: ‘maker give me strength.’ 

and ava would take Bull a bunch as her warrior-pick. dorian and solas is probably Too Many Mages. so we have

Mages: Ava, Bea, Solas, Viv

Warriors: iron bull, lilith

Rogues: mary, cam

i mean really that’s all you need, in terms of picking for excursions (though realistically WHY would you only bring four people? probably you would bring everyone most of the time, at least for sure bring everyone to the main camp in each region and have them split the fetch-quests lol) BUT i think michael as a warrior with Blackwall's abiliteis would be cool. he at least trained as a Chevalier (maybe is not actually one, because YIKES about how one actually becomes a Chev - aka, have to go into the alienage and slaughter innocent elves for no reason as a rite of passage. orlais sucks tldr).

yeah once Jillian joins (or… get’s spared via Inquisitor-judgement. because lets be honest ava would only go for the funny/ merciful options) then there is Some Tension between her and MS. and mary does punch ava frequently about it. rolling her eyes at Bea ‘what? she can heal. be thankful it’s not a crossbow bolt.’ 

oh yes Dora could be cullen. ex-Templar etc. & i love Josie so i want her, also where would the Inquisition be without her specifically? nowhere. plus she and MS could be old Bard buddies and have that cute friendship that Leliana and Josie have. 

Ava would be such a puppy over Morrigan. 1 because HOT and 2. because she sees morrigan shapeshift one time and begs her to teach her how to do that. and yes Morrigan would AND would be aware of Bea’s jealously and be a shit about it, but also at one point corner Bea & say ‘i am not interested in your girl.’ and Bea being like ‘my what? don’t be absurd she’s not my… ah. you’re mistaken!.’ morrigan just smirking and swaggering off. 

& yeah, avatrice is the Inquisition’s worst-kept secert, but Bea manages to be oblivious to the betting pools (not to their attraction, but she is also thinking ‘i am attracted to this girl because i am so devout. because i love andraste. not because her lips occupy my thoughts day and night or because her skin is soft or the way her magic feels when it heals me.’ & EVERYONE has to endure ava whinging about ‘bea this and bea that’ and ava and bea basically NEVER address things but meanwhile everyone is giving them totally unsolicited advice (which bea needs, frankly, but no does not appreciate; and ava is like ‘teach a scarecrow how to stand in a field why don’t you?’)

(oh god this got long! it is a very exciting concept though!!! can i truly be blamed for adoring it?)

I really have to go back and look over the spell list from Origins, I forgot so many of these... That being said, Haste? On Bea? Terminator. You have created the Terminator.

And not only could Ava cure possession, she can reverse Tranquility. With just a touch, even. Whether she learns this through Lilith's questline or discovers it by accident (would Mary bring it up?), that's a big fucking deal. A lot of her friends were probably made Tranquil (Diego?? I cry.)... And Yasmine would be all about Tranquil rights, I suspect, as she would have worked alongside them in whatever Circle she came from.

I also love Dorian, but I thought that might be Too Many Mages. Maybe not, he is my mustachioed little meow meow. Oh, and if he developed a friendship with Michael like he supposedly had with Felix? Super cute. And of course Bea would be super skeptical of him at first because ew Tevinter but once they bond over their shitty parents, it's like peas and carrots.

And yes, realistically you would at least take everyone on missions and split up the work that way. And maybe they do, which makes it really mean something when one party member (like Solas in the Exalted Plains) suddenly isn't there anymore.

You know what? Yes, Josie is there, and yes, she has the same friendship with Mama S, which absolutely shocks the younger members of the Inquisition. Hearing Josie's warning to run if they see S with a twine ball, measuring stick, and handkerchief really helps to humanize her to Ava and the rest.

Does Ava use the Well of Sorrows? It would be functionally the same as putting on the crown of thorns, but I don't think she would. 1) Because Bea would immediately shut down the idea and 2) If she knew in advance that using the Well would bind her in some way to Mythal?? Hell no. Morrigan can deal with that. Indeed, taking in all the knowledge and memories of the Elvhen would almost certainly do something messed up to Hope, which is the last thing anyone wants.

Who goes to the Fade in Here Lies the Abyss? This is the one time where I think Bea isn't there, because the fear and angst of not knowing where Ava is or if she's coming back? Losing her mind in anxiety, ready to fight everyone? The relief of seeing Ava step back through the Rift? Magnifique. I like taking Dorian to the Fade, and Sera. So: Ava, Dorian, Cam, Mary, Alistair/Stroud, and Michael? That could be really fun, with the Nightmare using Cam's mother against her, Michael's illness, and Mary's fear of never seeing Shannon again. How does Hope act back in the Fade? Is she still attached to Ava or is she free to help and guide them? A very interesting question.

[facelessxchurch]

Question And Answer Contain (massive) HBL Spoilers  #09

I like the way Mevolent’s fighting is described in chapter 24. “He was a giant of a man, but he moved like a dancer.”

Well, I finished, and that was a complete waste of my time.

The plot made absolutely no sense, like none. What the fuck is going on? Maybe I was purposefully not paying attention and only tuning in when Mevolent turned up, but I still have no idea where this started, or why.

I was fully expecting one of the Masked Sisters to be Malice, not Valkyrie. Dunno why, seemed obvious Darquesse would rope Malice in as her new maintenance woman. So I completely expected time travel, from the moment they started talking about the Lady of Darkness, but I didn’t expect Valkyrie at all.

When Valkyrie showed up, I started expecting Skulduggery from the future to also show his face. Surprised he stayed put.

Why does Valkyrie need Destrier’s necronaut suit to time travel now? She was already able to time travel without a suit in DoA. Is the implication here that she can only travel to futures and back again, but can’t travel backwards in time without the time travel suit?

Her suit is now also a time travel device on top of everything else it does. Ok lol

Did that part Valkyrie mentioned about her and Mevolent fighting together actually happen or did she just make it all up?

So now we have yet another alternate earth where mortals rule over sorcerers and siphon off their magic for their own petty ends

I assume that Abhor and Zeal and their stupid god will show up in phase 3. I won’t care about them then just like I didn’t care about them now

I actually liked the way Mevolent methodically killed his way through all the Dead Men. Despite everything wrong here it is good that Mevolent’s status as the one villain who will always win whatever struggle he enters into has not been compromised.

It’s kinda funny that Vile just pissed off half way through. I assume him doing that was what led to the whole necromancer thing that ended up in the mortals-with-magic timeline, but I’m not wasting a fucking molecule of neural energy to go back and figure that out

Landy needs to stop writing time travel plots. Unlike Darren Shan, he sucks balls at them and his don’t even make surface-level sense.

That said, this idea of the universe naturally reconciling damage inflicted on it by discrepancies in causality is something I’ve encountered before, in Halo, where the universe heals itself from the time dilation of huge space battles that utilize faster-than-light travel. This healing incurs a “debt” where if there has been too much heavy-weight FTL, faster-than-light travel simply fails. Predictably, Halo time travel is a lot more interesting and elegantly written than SP time travel. https://halo.fandom.com/wiki/Reconciliation_Debt

Landy gratuitously includes Dexter and Saracen kissing each other. Keep throwing more bisexuality at me, Derek, see if I give a fuck

Something weirdly cringy about Valkyrie taking the opportunity to announce to everyone Skulduggery is Lord Vile, long before he actually became Lord Vile

Does whatever stupid god is on the other side of the portal even matter in phase 3? Valkyrie instakilled Vile with the sceptre, now she has the sceptre’s power in her own body, and the power of the Boring God couldn’t kill Vile even in his weakest state. It stands to reason Valkyrie can dust the Boring God with one handful of black lightning whenever he shows up again.

No more thoughts now. Only cringe

—

Yeah, I love how Mev was described there too. I also really liked this scene.

“When Mevolent entered the tent, the temperature dropped, despite the warmth of the day. There was a coldness to the man that wasn’t caused by mere intimidation: his mastery of Elemental magic allowed him to control the temperature of his immediate surroundings. Not even Eachan Meritorious could do.“

Mev is so fucking extra lol. Like I said prior, the more I read about Mev, the more he is like Nef. They are birds of a feather if I ever saw some.

And now I see the part you meant. I’ve read straight past this bc I was distracted by Mev. But lol yeah, Landy forgot Meritorious discipline, what a fucking joke!

The plot is pointless bc by the end of it it’s not even a separate dimension, the timeline just gets erased. Bc of that, I was invested in nothing that happened past Nef’s death bc with Nef dead the current timeline wouldn’t be able to happen, so it was obvious that this would either be a separate timeline or would get a reset like UtE.

Ngl I keep forgetting Malice exists bc I care about her so little. And I didn’t make the connection between ‘Lady of Darkness’ and Darquesse until you mentioned it. I just... have so little interest in the new gods and cults. And frankly, reading them belittling FO followers while knowing that the FO are real is painful to read.

Val explained that she had to come alone so I wasn’t expecting that tbh. SP is a very tell-insted-of-show book series after all.

The fuck do I know. The laws of the SP world are vague, self-contradicting and constantly get retconned.

As if she (and the suit) wasn’t OP enough already.

Honestly, the whole there-where-more-timeline-than we saw kinda came out of left field, so I’m not sure. Like, she also said that there was a timeline where she hooked up with Skul and all the Dead Men and I’m straight up not sure if that was meant to be a joke or not. Skul also had no reaction to that, he only praised Val for flinging Mev off. But it’s totally believable that Val needed multiple attempts to unfuck the timeline.

I think that future got erased. But like I said, I call bullshit on Mev getting defeated by the necromancers. Fuck off, Landy.

Probably.

Mevolent, the villain that can only defeated by massive plot armour. Not even bc he’s that strong (he got nerfed so much) but bc the entire universe of SP shares one brain cell and he has it most of the time. I can accept the explanation that Mev was toying with them, but Baron getting beaten to death after having essentially already won was such bullshit.

Yeah probably. Landy made Vile even more OP in this book and I hate it. He made him so OP he needed him to fuck off randomly for his ending to work. I feel like the Dead Men getting brutally killed was him torturing DM fans, but I was enjoying it a lot :)

I already hate time travel plots, the fact that Landy lacks the skill to execute them in a satisfying way just makes it worse.

12. Time correcting itself has shown up in multiple media. A lot of times in relation of the person-you-tried-to-save-is-gonna-die-anyways.

13. See that one is cheeky bc this timeline is gonna get reset, so technically that didn’t happen. It’s fanservice and trolling at the same time. He’s also going back on this.

[link]

14. The bad guy also pointed out that Skul is Vile. The way he did it felt a lot like him retconning the Grimoire saying “no one knows Skul is Vile in the current timeline” as if Skul didn’t turn into Vile in front of a bunch of people in SoW.

15. Skul/Vile should have totally died tho. Destroying his physical form should have made Skul’s consciousness dissipate. He made Skul pretty much immortal unless someone like Darquesse shows up that can tears his consciousness out of him or whatever she did. This is way too OP :/ he’s becoming more and more a Gary-Sue each day.

16. Mood. This book was garbage.