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abybweisse · 1 year ago

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On Sebastian as a demon

Well, this non-theistic (atheist) Satanist 😆 read all the above... and is quite happy to discuss some possibilities.

I do look to the Lesser Key of Solomon simply because that's easily at hand, but I know it's not an original text and that it borrows from other faiths. Some grimoires even suggest that Naberius was once Cerberus, the three headed guard dog of Hades, which is Greek.

You make some great points, like how he can easily wear a crucifix and walk inside churches and across hallowed ground. And how he says our earl is a "fool" for denying/spitting upon the god of that world.

I'd like to add to that:

He can not only spend time in a church, but he can sit in a confessional booth and take confessions.

He doesn't have chicken feet (or the like) when he's "fully" transformed. However, he cannot seem to change the color of his nails and hair, which both remain black. Also, he's not allowed to cut his hair as he would like, and this could suggest there's something else about his hair. Notice that Aunt Francis/Frances only slicks his hair back, she doesn't cut it. I know he grows it out for his incognito 🥸 look on the ship, but I don't recall how he returns it to how it was before.

Yana-san says he's a "naturally born demon", so he was never human, a god who's been demonized, or a fallen angel.

He tells Agni that most gods are useless, so he recognizes the existence of multiple gods. It could be that he only finds a few (or even just one) to be of any use.

He does suggest he might have ties to the Ancient Greek mythologies, as he talks about the fare to cross the river... twice. He apparently doesn't say "river", but it's somewhat implied by "fare for crossing". The Latin poem he has the Weston boys recite also makes references to Cerberus and the rivers of Hades. In the Character Guide, Yana-san even once thought to give him a small dog named Cerberus, but then she decided to make him strongly prefer cats.

Though I cannot call it canon, for years I've had the impression he predates Christianity by a long time.

Sure, he could be from the Jewish tradition and ultimately follow its "rules" for demons, such as them being agents of their god, not truly against it/him. However, I still think he could date all the way back to the ancient Greeks. Then again, Yana-san also suggests that demons are inter-dimensional beings (who apparently sometimes keep Xenomophs as pets), so Sebastian could be from another dimension... and he's just become associated with certain figures in various myths and legends and religions over the millennia.

Since one of his namesakes was the French inquisitor and demonologist, Sebastién Michaelis, I'd be interested to read what he wrote about various demons. What's different between The Lesser Key of Solomon... and Jewish texts on demons... and what Michaelis wrote? 🤔

Something important consider regarding Sebastian, and some of the things people have had to say about him pertaining to following Christian Mythology.

Some people are using the wrong evidence to support Sebastian following what they claim is "Christian Mythology." If one tries to base his origins off of his contract symbol alone, and link it to The Lesser Key of Solomon… a lot of people have some feelings on the matter. Namely, an entire group of people. I did my best to break down the contract and it's origin in a previous post, but I did not further expand on it. I deeply regret that I didn't. The lesser Key of Solomon is a grimoire that does not actually trace back to the Talmud. The Lesser Key of Solomon is loosely based off of The Testament of Solomon... which barrows from multiple cultures and can only be traced as early as the middle ages. In fact, is has absolutely no connection to true Jewish folkore or true Kabbalah. There are mountains of evidence to support this, I would encourage people to keep digging. This article expanded upon this much better than I could ever explain. :

That people have used this grimoire in the past as "evidence" that jewish people have "secret magic and powers" and as an excuse to be antisemitic. N-zi's used this, as propaganda.

The book was clearly written by a non-jew (goy), who culturally-appropriated from Kabbalah and Talmudic texts. How do historians (more importantly, jewish historians) know that? There's a lot of grammatical errors in extremely-broken hebrew, for one. There's the countless books and articles written about this by Jewish people that often get trampled on, by people in occult spaces. Theistic Satanism is rife with people who are comfortable brushing shoulders with N-zis and parroting their ideology, for a reason. Occult spaces in general are very hostile, toward jewish people in general and they don't care if they're stealing from a closed practice. Quabbalists / Cabbalists were formed in general, so that non-jews could steal/practice Kabbalah and pretend it's Christian … The Lesser Key of Solomon, is a part of that. People call it "Christian" as an excuse, to be able to use it in religious practices. Solomon came before Christ, not after.

Jews who believe and practice in a non-secular way, don't believe demons are inherently always evil beings. There isn't a clear cut translation for "demon" in hebrew. That very belief in of itself, has gotten many jewish people hurt, killed, and persecuted for centuries.

A mystic jew who practices Kabbalah, would not have written a book/grimoire describing demons, like that. A jewish person wouldn't have even approved of the vast majority of those illustrations of the demons, either. Another reason this is known: it's staple of jewish folklore that demons aren't capable of completely shapeshifting into a human being, as they always will have what's described as 'chicken feet' / 'bird feet' / 'cock's feet', when they're in disguise, and they have to hide them using other much more ordinary means outside their own magic.

A lot of those illustrations in the lesser key, describe and depict them as having human feet, when they take the shape of a human... There's not even one mention of 'They take the shape of a man with chicken's feet/birds feet' or any warning, about what their feet will look like, anywhere, in the Lesser Key of Solomon. Wouldn't that be important?

In jewish folklore sometimes demons are known to chase ghosts and wayward souls that were once evil in life, trying to escape accountability for their misdeeds. Human ghosts who try to posses or hurt other humans. In other words it's generally accepted that human evil has the potential to be more meddlesome and monstrous, than a demon can be. That's not primarily a Christian belief. It is also a Jewish belief, that demons are inherently doing what they're supposed to do and have a place, in G-d's plan. Even 'Satan' (not the correct name in Jewish belief!!!) is ultimately a subordinate to G-d, working with him and not against him... not necessarily HIS adversary or the enemy, it's much more accurate to say demons and devils are an adversary to humans and human kind, alone. Didn't Sebastian say, "Where is the FOOL who spits on God?" ...That doesn't sound like a demon who sees God as an adversary. Contrary to popular belief, the Christian God and the Jewish G-d, even conceptually... are extremely different concepts, and entities (I mean for fucks sake one did the whole Jesus thing, and one DIDN'T... that's a huge difference. It is not by any stretch the only one).

People have been pointing these things out for centuries. That Christianity is NOT Judaism Plus™️... but it continuously falls on deaf ears. The reason why discussions like this almost never go anywhere productive, are because people out there... either don't care, or are Antisemetic anyway. It doesn't matter if they brush shoulders with extremely misguided and bad people, they want to believe what they want to believe. People will always be out there who will try to insist the Lesser Key is actually-reliable knowledge concerning the vast majority of these demons, and those who actually use it are "doing it in good taste!" and that "this source is Christian actually, and I am respectful!"

There's "demons" on that list, that come from completely unrelated cultures and practices, that aren't christian OR jewish. I've cited sources that confirm this already... but you need look no further, beyond the names and descriptions of the demons themselves. Therefore, insulting to say, "Their overlord is Satan" and they're beneath a rank in any kind of Christian-formulated hierarchy.

For the record... Of course, it is possible to explore this in fiction and to study these things. Of course it's possible, that jewish people have written about these spirits, and have tried to reclaim some elements of design of the sigils and content that was badly botched. It's their right to do so. Of course it's possible, to take these sources with a grain of salt and read it as someone curious, and studying how this all happened... how these texts came to be, and why it's so far removed from the closed practices that wrote about them. I'm not saying it can never be used or written about, ever, I am not trying cancel anybody (or Yana). Especially people who didn't know half of what I've just talked about. It took me an embarrassingly long time to understand any of this, and even accept half of the things, I've read. I'm just saying trying to say, as someone who has studied these matters independently for over fifteen years... That even if you're of the belief, Sebastian is connected to the symbols within the contract and that grimoire? ... It still doesn't mean, he's a part of Christian mythology. That source doesn't necessarily mean anything, in the context of who Sebastian is. The evidence to support he is Abrahamic in origin is much more arguable. The fact is, we don't know what Yana has in store for him, and we don't know that his contract necessarily means that The Lesser Key of Solomon, or The Testament of Solomon are accurate sources for what he is, or are actually helpful when it comes to identifying what sort of demon he is. He's certainly not following Christian mythology, and isn't displaying any of the signs that track with Christian mythology. He wears a crucifix, walks about a church, and walks on hollowed ground. Before anyone says with their whole chest they know exactly what sort of Demon or entity Sebastian is, in the context of the manga… I would implore people, to do more research, about these matters and to ask a lot of questions... and seek many different sources, regarding even what they THINK they know, and who they THINK they can trust.

It's easy to imagine in fiction, that if an entity went from a g-d to demon, or even from one type of demon to being seen as a different type... that they might embracing the symbols and names, they are now so commonly associated with. A lot of stories have been written like that. It's a very common theme in a lot of media, written by many different people across several different cultures! Jewish culture was not the only culture appropriated, in The Testament of Solomon.

I do find it extremely odd though, that people use the contract symbol and where it came from, as evidence that Sebastian is a "Christian demon" and "A fallen angel"... when Yana herself has already said she doesn't ever intend to confirm what his nature is, or where he came from. I also don't believe that humankind is supposed to be the pinnacle of all things innocent, and that the supernatural and divine are forces, are leading them to pain and poor choices... there are so many evil humans, in black butler and if anything, they use the supernatural as means to accomplish their goals and ambitions. Not the other way around. We have seen Sebastian act manipulatively, destructively, and even cruelly... but not any more so, than other characters in the story. Sebastian is not behaving the way a true evil being out of the bible, would.

Sebastian's contract isn't even "perfectly" inverted (as I already pointed out). "Solomon" / "Soluzen" isn't in Sebastian's contract, at all (the exception being S1 in the anime... thats it) ... and that tells me all I needed to know! * * * If you read all the way to the end of this you deserve rewards and treats. * * *

But finally on a personal and extremely petty note …why do people want things to be infinitely less interesting than they could be????? 😭 Why do Christians think they invented and have the monopoly on demons? Why does he need to fit into an extremely limited view of what a demon is that BADLY?

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