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chriscdcase95 · 5 years ago

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How not to debate Ships and Shipping

I am writing this from personal experience, and from noticing bad cases of Ship Policing going on in the Hazbin Hotel and Star Wars fandom as of late. I figured a bunch of kids got too much computer time from their parents and are in need of education, because this is a more extreme throwback to the shipping wars that occurred in the Twilight and iCarly fanbase from way back when.

Since 2010, I have found myself a little immersed into the practice of shipping. At the start of this decade, I was Team Edward/Team Jacob levels of ship crazy, and here I am now with a new perspective on things.

I've even devolved into multi shipping, but I apply that when it comes to compartmentalizing fanfiction and canon. I have my share of OTP's and NOTP's (although Jemma of Every Witch Way is personally my top NOTP for multiple reasons).

Anyways, welcome to my TedTalk where I will educate you ten to fifteen year old's about how not to debate ships. Take it from an old geezer with ten years of experience, I was there in the middle of ship wars at the start of the decade.

I said in previous posts that ships are a funny thing. They should be small in the grand scheme of things, and fans put them on this great and grand pedestals. Some to the extent where people become downright psychotic bullies about the ships they like or don't like, going as far as to police ships to other fans, and sometimes creators. I think we can agree Ship Policing should be seen as toxic behaviour, right ? Well, no. I'll admit that is a complex issue, even for a multi shipper like me. I brought this up in two Facebook groups I'm in, and the basic consensus is that Ship Policing is toxic behaviour - except when they romanticize domestic violence, rape, pedophilia, etc.

But what is Ship Policing ? Simply put, telling people who they are or are not allowed to ship; bullying and shaming others over their ships; and in the biggest extreme, sending death threats and rape threats to other fans over these pairings. The Jemma fans of Every Witch Way for example, are probably the biggest example of Ship Policing, seeing as they literally got the showrunners to rewrite the show to fit their ships fanfiction AU image. But that's neither here nor there, but the point is, AU's are best left to fanfiction or It's A Wonderful Life plots.

Similarly, the Hazbin Hotel fandom had this (hopefully/mercifully one) really bad apple coming the Chalastor fandom, who went on homophobic speeches and demanding that the showrunners make Chalastor canon over Chaggie because and RadioDust- in their own words - "Gays are gross" and went as far as to send death threats to the creators. Because that will certainly make your ship canon, and not make you and yours look like the Jemma fandom.

A less malicious and more hilariously petty example comes from The Loud House fandom, where Luanny fans tend to get butthurt over fans, fics and art of the Luaggie ship, despite the Luanny already being canon and Luaggie only ever existing in fanworks. It was such a one sided non-issue, that it was the Spec Ops the Line of ship wars.

Also within the Loud House fandom there is an artist who made OC's based off of his ships AU. I'm not into the ship or AU, but I saw him getting death threats not just to himself, but his OC's as well. I may not be fully aware of the situation (like I just said, I don't follow the ship or AU), but even I can call this a toxic and illogical way of thinking.

To make a primary and personal example for this lecture, I am going to bring up the most outlandish ship discussion I was part of the past year. Some time ago, I ended up in a debate regarding Kim Possible ships in a Facebook group I posted on. In it I said I wasn't into non canon but popular ship called Kigo. When I re-watched the series, the Drakgo and Kim x Ron (the latter of which I just realized didn't have a ship name) just kind of grew on, and I felt that there were some problems with Kigo as a romantic relationship.

Now I want to make sure to point out that if you like Kigo, that is 100% okay, it is just in my opinion that it would be problematic. It's my personal opinion that if you apply their canon characterization, you'll run into the same problems Anti Reylos have with Rey and Ben. Anyways, when I said my peace, most of the Kigo's didn't make a big deal about it; they took it in stride; calmly disagreed with me and stated their stance. This is what a proper ship discussion should be. It would have been one of the most stable, non toxic discussions I was a part of. Nothing memorable was supposed to happen.

Then she came along.

Since she isn't internet famous on this site or others as far as I know, I am not going to use real names because I don't want this person to be doxxed, stalked or cyberbullied, but I will us LP as a substitute. She will be our example of what a toxic anti will look like, and our example of how not to debate or discuss a ship. Simply put, if she had the fame, she would be the TrueLoveHeart94 of the Kigo fandom (look up Dumbsville's videos on him YouTube, and you'll get a good idea of what I'm talking about).

One of the first things to use is a simple explanation for your stance. When I was explaining my stance, I explained how I came to my conclusions simply by watching the show, putting some thought into it, and making my own opinion based on what I observed. Like I said these were my opinions, observations, and at no point do I claim it to be some objective fact. At no point to attack Kigo's, at no point did I call them toxic. The most I did was explain why I find it problematic. Like I said, if you like Kigo that is 100% fine and dandy, you'll get not hate or bullying from me.

LP on the other hand, well she just couldn't accept that someone didn't like Kigo. How dare I prefer two canonically heterosexual characters in a canon het ship. How dare I commit the crime of having an unpopular, differing opinion. Even worse how dare I try to explain my reasoning.

It was one of those fan discussions. Now when I thought this was going to be a civil discussion, I asked her just why I was wrong not to ship Kigo. Why is Kim x Ron or Drakgo so toxic ? She didn't really give me a real answer; the closest she got to a coherent response was a borderline Darwinist rant about how "strong women shouldn't date weakling men".

That was what should have made me think "is this discussion worth having ?" (For the record, some of my favourite ship dynamics is with a tough or strong woman with a meek, even nerdish man so the whole "the strong shouldn't be paired up with weaklings" is a non argument to me).

Pretty soon she began breaking the following steps one should take in a debate

. Don't use double standards or Non Sequiturs - First thing you should be aware of in any debate is to actually listen too and answer you're opponents points. The talking points of dodging questions, or ignoring answers - a well as using those same answer to support your points - is an inherently dishonest tactic. If you have a point or counterpoint, it'll do you good not to use dishonest tactics to try to "win" your debates.

One of the things I had issues with regarding Kigo was one of the same points (if not the main) LP raised for the ship. As I said above one of my problems was some of the same talking points Anti-Reylo's raise. I pointed out how Kim and Shego have tried to kill each other a few times in the series, something LP both acknowledges and ignores in the exact same sentence. LP's own talking points for their relationship was their romantic/sexual chemistry could be seen in their fight scenes. This is an example of a Double Standard.

When I pointed out the abusive implications of this thought process, rather than directly answer this, LP went on to equate my point as accusing professional wrestlers of being abusive to their wives. This is an example of a Non Sequitur. She doesn't answer or address my points, and my points don't count unless they support her argument.

Double standards and Non Sequiturs in general should be avoided in any kind of debate. If a talking point is raised against you, it has to be addressed. Not doing so is a less dignified admission that you don't really have an answer.

Another example of this can be seen in the Team Edward vs Team Jacob noise; a Team Jacob fan could say that Edward was a stalker towards Bella, ignoring and dodging a counter argument of Jacob's "Nice Guy" attitude towards Bella and how he forcibly kissed her (also there's Charlie's non reaction to this, but that's beside the point). The same goes vice versa; both are problematic.

Use canon evidence to make your point - Admittedly this one can only really apply if you are making a case for a non canon ship, or pointing out problems with a canon one.

Now the reason LP was so impassioned about her arguments was her insistence that Kigo had to be canon. As she said, it wasn't enough that it was popular enough as a fanfic ship; it wasn't enough that I had to ship it; but she was trying to make the case that Kigo had to be the canon ship of the show, and she was trying to make the case for it.

TrueLoveHeart94 thought process aside, if you want to make a canon case for your ship, it'll do you good in ship debates is use canon evidence. What I am saying is there are some ships that work in canon, others in fanfiction. If you were to make a point to prove your ship would work in canon, use canon examples.

For example, I mentioned above someone in the Hazbin Hotel fandom tried to make the canon case for Chalastor....by citing their personal homophobia and making death threats towards Ashley and Vivziepop.

In the debate, I used the show to explain why I wasn't into Kigo (as well as my above mentioned reasons) and I mentioned how I didn't see much in canon to see a romantic relationship. Now I want to be clear, I saw Kigo as a fanfic based ship and I am aware that Drakken and Shego seemingly reform at the end of the series, but with canon at best I see Kim and Shego as having a sisterly relationship. I also want to be clear I am not a canon purist. There are many non canon couples I like, I am a multi-shipper after all and I can compartmentalize fanfic couples with my canon OTP's. And I am a supporter of AU's. Hell, there's even Hero x Villain ships I am into...it's just Kigo isn't one of them. I am not an anti; I don't hate the Kigo relationship or it's fan; I just wasn't into it and the canon ships just grew on me when I revisited the series.

When I asked for canon examples that Kigo could work as a romantic pairing, LP's response was to cite fanfiction and fan art as proof.

Let me repeat; I asked for canon examples to prove her point, and why my stance was wrong....and she used fanworks.

I don't think I need to explain the problem here.

To my knowledge, not even TrueLoveHeart94 uses fanfiction/art to make a canon case for Sonamy. This is the kind of straw grasping I can see Chris Weston Chandler making. I don't even know what else to say about this. I still get slacked thinking about it.

Anyway, when I said the fanfiction isn't considered canon, LP responded thusly...

Avoid Ad Hominems and slander

Okay, this one should be a no brainer; when you are in a debate of any kind, there is one thing you can do that means you immediately loose your debate. Your points no longer become valid, you surrender any argument you may have, and you prove that you are not worth debating.

Ad Hominems, personal insults, death/rape threats, racist/homophobic ranting, slander, etc.

Let's just say the nicer things LP said was calling me retarded. I am not sure if that was a coincidence since I mentioned that I was autistic earlier in the discussion.

Keep in mind, all I did throughout the discussion was answer LP's questions, and explain my stance. I even said that it was just my opinion and at no point did I claim it to be objective fact. At no point did I accuse LP of being racist; a nazi; biphobe; rape/abuse apologist; self-misogynist or misandrist; I never called her abelist (despite some of what she said above).

As for what she said to me ? Like I said, being called a retard was one of the more tame things she said of me. She kept sending me notifications that included angry, barely coherent rants, TrIgGeReD tExT, the whole nine yards.

See, this isn't how you win debates, this is how you rage quit these debates. To give you an idea of the way she was saying, I refer you to Dumbsville's videos on TrueLoveHeart94; the resemblance between LP and TrueLoveHearts comments are rather uncanny. Now for context, the discussion started approx. 6:00 to 7:00 PM...these notifications have been ongoing well into 1:30 AM.

And all this because I said I wasn't into a ship she liked.

That is when I put a stop to the discussion. I blocked LP and deleted the discussion just to be safe.

Conclusion

So as we start the new decade, I look back at how much I've seen making mountains out of molehills (shipping wars). I have seen, heard, even been part of these ship wars and discussions since 2010. My disastrous "debate" with LP is a recent example.

I do believe there is nothing wrong with discussing ships, but it has ben ten years and ship wars are just as bad as they were when Twilight hit the scene. I have heard stories of people getting threats of rape, doxing, threats to people families; people pushing others to self harm for liking "the wrong ship".

I wrote this to educate the young and impressionable in the 2020's not to repeat the same mistakes both I and others made in 2010. The fact the LP incidents is from 2019 and the incident with the Hazbin Hotel fandom are from December 2019 alone, shows that you good folks need some learning to do. Something that should be considered fun shouldn't be something worth hurting yourself or others over.

If you ever find yourself in such a debate, always remember to actually address points raised against you; don't dodge questions; if asked to provide canon reasons for why something should be a canonical OTP or NOTP, please remember that fanfiction are not considered canon examples; if you ever find yourself throwing nasty accusations, insults or threats to people's safety in a debate, then that means you lost the debate.

Hopefully you can follow this advise, and help make shipping fun again, and not something to start World War III over.

This had been my Ted Talk.

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