#s12 finale was the perfect reunion starting point

[japrilmusings]

Random..

I was really cooking with 'Say you'll love me again". If only greys hadn't fabulously pissed me off starting with the Minnick SL, I might have finished. Ah well.

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Insights From the Talk Dead to Me Podcast

Okay, I teased everyone over the weekend that I’d have a lot to talk about today, and here it is. There was SO much interesting information in this podcast. 

New Mexico Symbolism

TD isn’t by far the only ones to connect the New Mexico symbolism. On the podcast, they talked extensively about that and about how it will probably play into the sequel. One theory they had (and I hope they’re wrong) is that they think Aaron will get Rick’s comic book death. They think it would mess with Daryl’s head so bad, it would “run him out of town.”

Personally, I don’t think Daryl would leave JUST because Aaron died. For all the reasons many of us have already talked about (him taking care of Judith and RJ, etc). If anything, I think it would make him want to stay more and look after Gracie as well. I really don’t want Aaron to die, though. Unfortunately, it would make sense for him to die, what with him being such a heavy Beth proxy so often, but I’d really like him and Beth to meet first. Just my head canon, but I can’t help it. And they may have a point about Rick’s CB death, given that Aaron has already lost his arm. 

Why Extended Seasons Instead of Just Doing S12?

You know how I keep saying it’s weird that they’re doing this massively extended S11 rather than just breaking it into S11 and S12? Yeah, this podcast told me why, and it makes perfect sense. In a nutshell: many of the actors’ contracts expire after S11. AMC doesn’t want to renegotiate everyone’s contract for only one season.

And that’s something I’m positive has changed. If they were going to season 15, they would have just renegotiated the contracts, no problem. But since they’ve decided to end it now, it would have been WAY more inconvenient. And the people on the podcast made a good point, saying that if the actors’ agents find out the show REALLY NEEDS them for one final season, they’re gonna come back with astronomical demands. And given the state of the world, covid, etc., those kinds of monetary demands really could tank the final season. So, I’m glad to know that. It makes tons of sense.

Let’s Talk AMC’s Social Media Practices

So, several of these people who do the podcast correspond with AMC regularly for social media reasons. They talked about how they’ll often press the AMC representatives they talk to for more information. For the most part, they get the same, vague promises we all get from Gimple. “We’re working on a script.”  Or the classic, “I don’t know any more than you,” crap. But these podcasters said things might have changed logistically with the Rick Grimes films as well. You know how back when Rick left, Gimple said they’d be doing a 3-film trilogy? Well, apparently, people have begun to notice that ever since then, and especially since CoVid, any time anyone close to the shows references the Rick Grimes films, they talk about them in the singular, not the plural. The Rick Grimes FILM, not the Rick Grimes films. And the podcasters think it’s because the show is playing it by ear. Due, again, to financial concerns, maybe they’ll just make one film and see how well it’s received before deciding to make another. Obviously, I disagree with that idea. I do think things might have changed, the same as them ending the series after S11, in that they might use something other than films to continue Rick’s story. But I think they have a specific story to tell and they’re going to tell it, one way or the other.

I also think they got a bigger backlash about the films than they were expecting. People really threw tantrums about the idea of having to pay money to see it in the theaters. People are just used to getting it free on TV, and I think the reaction took tptb by surprise. Anyway, now with CoVid, and theater attendance WAY down, and heaven only knows where we’ll be in a year, it wouldn’t surprise me if AMC and Gimple are rethinking that tactic. Maybe they’ll only do one film and then segue Rick into another series. Either his own, or the Daryl/Carol one. Kirkman ended the comics in the summer of 2019. That was AFTER Rick’s last episode. So I’m willing to bet that all the changes and shuffling started as soon as the comics ended. However it happens, it does show that more than one thing is being shuffled behind the scenes due to CoVid. But listening to this gave me a huge epiphany that I became illogically excited about, lol. It was nothing they said, but just me thinking through the implications of all of this. I’ve always believed Rick would return in some way. And even though I’d be totally cool with him having a reunion with his kids in one of the Rick Grimes films or whatever, I’ve always had a sense that he would return to the series, despite them telling us he wouldn’t. Well, as I said yesterday, the idea of him returning seems much less likely now that we know they’re ending after S11. But…something occurred to me. Gimple has adamantly said Rick won’t return to the TWD series. He’s never said anything about him not moving to any spinoffs. *mic drop*

Thoughts About the Daryl/Carol Spinoff

Nothing too groundbreaking here, but they did say that the Donnie shippers are super frustrated, which I’m sure is true. They said the Caryl shippers are happy, but not too over-the-top happy about it. (Their words. I really couldn’t say whether that’s true or not.)

They also said that, given how much the show has told us there won’t be romance between them, it will either be the ultimate reward for the Carylers (if they get together romantically) or the ultimate tease (if they don’t).

So, my point is that, outside the hardcore shippers at least, most of the fandom isn’t really thinking this is going to be a romance thing with Carol and Daryl. And because of that, they’re wondering where the show could possibly go with Daryl and Carol. Like, they’ve explored their relationship as far as they can and they’re questioning whether this series revolving around them will be worth watching.

Now, if we didn’t know what we know or hadn’t theorized what we have, I would agree whole-heartedly with that. There has to be more to this spinoff than just Daryl and Carol running around killing zombies together. Even the GA is a little confused about this and thinks there must be more to the story. And, you know, there will be.

Coda Replay (And We Didn’t Even Realize It!)

This came together for me from multiple sources. I have an Ask in my inbox that I haven’t answered yet. It’s from a Nonny who obviously wrote in when the big news broke. He/she says that AMC announced the end of the series and the spin off…and then deleted the post. I wasn’t sure what to make of that, because it doesn’t seem to me like anything’s been deleted. At least on Twitter, the post with the press release and the announcement is still pinned to the top of the account. And probably different click bait sites have reported on it. So they don’t seem to be trying to hide it. I didn’t really know what to make of that, except maybe one of the posts was deleted for logistical reasons (typo or something) and then reposted, and the Nonny just thought it was suspicious when really, it wasn’t. Then I listened to this podcast. And guess what? One of the clickbait sites that was slated to give the announcement, IGN, posted it like two hours early…and then deleted their post.

One of the women they talked to used to be a social media manager for AMC. She isn’t anymore, but she worked for AMC for several years. And they asked her about the “leak.” She said that she felt badly for the company that leaked it early. She said when there’s a big announcement like this, there are dozens, maybe hundreds, of moving pieces behind the scenes. Basically, AMC has a whole network that they coordinate to release the news all at the same time. So, it didn’t surprise her that someone, every so often, messes it up and releases it early. It’s just a lot people and moving parts to keep track of. So like maybe, if they were supposed to post the announcement at 8am central time, maybe they posted it at 8 their time, which was too early. That sort of thing. And okay, I guess that makes sense. But there’s just one problem with that explanation. The EXACT same thing happened with this announcement as happened with Beth’s fate in Coda. One of the companies released it too early.

(I’m sure this is the post Nonny means that was deleted: because it was released too early.)

That’s why, the day the news of the show ending broke, people were talking about “rumors” of TWD ending before the official announcement was made. Between that, and all the references we’ve seen (‘bringing characters back from the dead,’ and ‘the six episode coda,’) I just don’t think I can believe in good faith that this was a coincidence.

A little more about AMC social media accounts.

This just confirms what we’ve suspected for years. This woman said she was one of many social media managers. But all that means is that she “managed” several of AMC’s social media accounts. As in, she posted on them and interacts with fans and comments.

She in no way, shape, or form had any say about what was posted or when. She specifically said that such things were WAY above her paygrade. She suspects that such decisions went all the way up to Gimple and Kang. Like there’s someone who follows them around, and when one of them says something needs to be posted, that person texts all the social media managers and they post it. Boom. The writers 100% control what goes out on social media. What it is, what graphics to use, how it’s worded. Everything. #TDforthewin!

She also said that if someone leaks the news early, everything is reconfigured and they quickly shore up to protect the narrative and make sure everything is correct and appropriate. Very interesting.

He also asked her if she thought IGN did it intentionally or on accident. She was obviously being careful not to throw too much shade, but you could tell she definitely thought it might have been done intentionally. Oh, and also? The podcast guy said he knew about the leak because he had to wait until a certain time (I want to say 8:30 am, but I don’t know which time zone) before he posted about it. AMC told him what time and he made sure not to sleep in so he wouldn’t miss it, but he logged on and people already knew because of the leak.

So once again, even this podcast, who claims not to be directly affiliated with AMC (even though they totally are) is getting posts, directions, etc. from AMC. And that’s important with what I’m about to tell you, because the people on this podcast have definitely mentioned Beth in suspicious contexts more than once. And this podcast was the farthest thing from an exception.

Talking About Beth Randomly

That leads me to my final and the biggest thing that stuck out to me about this podcast. Let me first say that I generally like the podcasters and their attitudes toward the show. For one thing, none of them are pro-Caryl. Most of them like Carol all right, but don’t want her and Daryl together romantically. Obviously, I like that.

Unfortunately, they were kinda being punks about Beth in this episode. They went on a little TD-bashing session. As I said the other day, they didn’t mention TD by name or anything, but it was more of a “did you know there are people out there who think Beth is alive?” kind of thing. And they were being really sarcastic about what they thought about that. But the entire discussion still felt SUPER suspicious to me. They were talking about the OTHER spinoff. Not the Daryl/Carol one, but the “Tales of the Walking Dead” one where they’ll tell the back story of deceased characters. One of them asked who the others would like to see back stories of. Out of nowhere, one of them yelled, “Beth!” Seriously. Out. Of. Freakin. Nowhere. And then they basically started making fun of TDers. They talked about how there really are people out there who think she’s still alive. Then one of them said “those people” think that Beth had a twin sister we never knew about and she’s the one who got shot and Beth is still secretly alive. I had to chuckle and shake my head at that. Maybe there’s someone, somewhere in the fandom who thinks that, but I’ve never even heard anyone argue that before. Have you? He then called people who believe that a great big pile of stupid. So yeah, obviously they were being punks. But the conversation about Beth went on and on. One of them said they hoped AMC did a Beth back story in that spin off series, just to mess with the heads of the people who think she’s still alive. And then someone else replied that she doesn’t have a back story to tell because we know it all already: farm, prison, Grady. (I’m sorry; who’s one big pile of stupid to NOT notice the missing 17 days in S5?) Even though they were basically laughing at us, it just felt really deliberate and contrived. And then, one of the women says, “I hope she shows up in The World Beyond.” Seriously? After that, they finally kind of went, “Anyway…” and moved on. But they didn’t even mention any other names in answer to the question about who else they wanted to see back stories for in that second spin off. They ONLY talked about Beth. I siriusly sat there with my jaw hanging open because again, it just came out of nowhere, and they mentioned her—extensively—in conjunction with BOTH spinoffs AND threw in TWB. Just saying.

You know how I said earlier that they claim  not to be affiliated with AMC, though they totally are? Well, technically these people are part of Skybound. (Upper left corner of the picture below.) So in that way, they aren’t directly AMC. But we all know Skybound has posted MANY suspicious things about Beth over the years. And as I established above, they’re definitely being fed what to post by AMC. 

So I feel like that applies here as well. It’s almost like AMC told them to mention Beth in some way, even if it was by way of making fun of people who think she’s alive. So they found a way to bring her up in conversation. And hey, maybe these podcasters really don’t know about Beth’s return. Maybe they think AMC wants them to make fun of or dismiss the idea of her return. But either way, they contrived a way to talk about her, and they would only have done that if AMC told them to.  Okay, I’ll shut up, now. That podcast just totally rocked my world. Thoughts?

[orionsangel86]

I'm tired of this discussion about Saileen or Samwena. Why can't be both? I recognize the potential that Sam and Rowena had for a romantic relationship, they really seemed to be going in that direction, and as Rowena said, they'd grown fond of each other. But I also recognize the potential that Sam and Eileen have for a romantic relationship, for reasons that we all saw at s11, s12 and s15. What do you think?

Hi there!

Is this discussion still ongoing? Since I have blocked it all out to be honest and refuse to engage in drama on the topic. But since you asked I will give you my thoughts on the whole Saileen/Samwena thing.

First of all I like your thinking! Why not both indeed! I don’t care for shipping wars but here’s the way I see things. I have never been a “death of the author” kind of person. My whole process for writing meta is what I think the writers and creators of the show are intending to convey when they tell the story that we see. In season 11, Eileen was introduced as a clear love interest for Sam. She has always been portrayed this way even after her untimely death (which I still believe only happened because they didn’t have any other close characters to the brothers at the time to kill off whose actors they could get last minute and whose death would be equally shocking - I know it’s just speculation but it’s my belief). I wrote a long post here about my love for Saileen and how it has been portrayed in the show. I am firmly still a Saileen shipper because it was just perfect from the start, but also I only ever “ship” things that I see within the show as being planted purposely by the creators. I ship Saileen because Saileen has always been a thing ya know? It’s not imaginary and never has been.

However, following Eileen’s death in Season 12, Sam and Rowena’s relationship has been heavily developed on. They bonded over their shared Lucifer trauma, their experiences with fear and their interest in magic. The relationship between them is complex and very much an enemies to friends (to something more?) set up. Sam is canonically Rowena’s protege and now her heir. The mutual respect they hold for each other is clearly noticeable and their destinies tied by fate through Billie’s death books could arguably be considered romantic. Basically, Sam and Rowena as a love story is certainly a dramatic and interesting one that ticks a lot of boxes for a lot of people. I do believe that for a time, the writers flirted with the idea of them as a romantic pairing and that there was clear authorial intent to code their relationship in a romantic way. Especially in seasons 13 and 14. Whilst I never “shipped” Samwena, I guess I saw it the way I see Drowley. I believed that it was being intentionally written with romantic undertones. I was all for it as a romantic pairing, have never been against it, but it didn’t feel me with “feels” either I guess. I love both Sam and Rowena individually, and whether the story took them in a romantic direction or not wouldn’t have bothered me. Had Eileen never come back, I would have squee’d and enjoyed it with the rest of you, even if I wasn’t super invested ya know?

I think a lot of people saw their relationship as romantic after the Billie death book reveal. It was a nice idea that Rowena’s “death” at Sam’s hands might be a metaphorical death where she would choose to give up her immortality for him. (It’s also an idea generally adored by Destiel shippers so it’s not surprising that this was something people got excited about).

Unfortunately this idea didn’t pan out and Sam literally had to kill Rowena. I am one of the people who really loved her death scene, because it felt like a true redemption and moment of empowerment for Rowena. I know that there are people who will disagree with me on that and that is absolutely fine. I guess for me, Rowena making that ultimate sacrifice just felt right for her character journey at that point because true redemption was something she still needed. Rowena was always previously an anti-hero character. She had still done a lot of bad and hadn’t really repented or redeemed herself for the bad she had done in the earlier seasons. She was still generally motivated by selfish desires and still pretty much made decisions for herself, though like Crowley, her respect and care for the Winchesters conflicted with her own selfish motivations and in the later seasons she chose to help them even at risk to herself, which put her well on her way to redemption of course. But this death was her actual redemption. Her true sacrifice, purely selfless deed, in order to not only save the Winchesters, but also the world.

Therefore I see her rise to power again as Queen of Hell as a reward for her sacrifice and redemption. I never believed that 15x03 was the last we’d see of her (too much womb and maternal imagery there). I believe that Queen of Hell is a satisfactory end point for her, having reached her full potential and freeing herself of all the former oppression and bindings that she faced. She is now one of the most powerful beings in the universe along with Chuck, Amara, Billie, the Empty, Eve, and Jack. It’s a position that makes sense for a character who has always desired unlimited power.

I also think that Rowena will continue to be a big player in the story. This definitely isn’t the last we’ve seen of her in terms of fighting the final boss battle, but her position as Queen of Hell I do think will remain a fixed position from here. Though if it isn’t, and the writers have something else wonderful in store for her, I will also be happy with that too.

Given that canonically Sam and Eileen desire and want each other, and are only being separated by Chuck (and look, I’m not gonna get real deep into it, but I felt that 15x09 did go far to stress that whilst Chuck set up the reunion because he wanted “romance” in his story, the feelings, the connection, and everything else between Sam and Eileen is 100% real. Sam textually states that it’s real after all (in a nice and also emotionally destroying mirror to Cas saying the same thing to Dean in 15x02 by the way - Forever a Destiel shipper here :P)) it is logical that Sam and Eileen will reunite and rekindle their romance at some point in a coming episode. I am of the belief that Saileen is probably our endgame here. I don’t think that they would have gone to the trouble to bring Eileen back in the final season, make her a love interest for Sam, only to either kill her off, kill him off, or separate them again and not have them be endgame.

But I could be totally wrong. Could Sam and Rowena still reunite and start a new love connection? Sure it’s possible. Rowena is coming back as well I would put money on it. We don’t know how the show plans to end after all. Who knows, maybe Sam will also sacrifice himself and go to hell and that whole Boy!King dropped story arc from season 3 will finally get picked up again! Sam and Rowena as Queen and consort of Hell could be quite an amusing and somewhat fitting end for them! The two characters who suffered most at Lucifer’s hands taking over and ruling Hell as a big fuck you to their tormentor is certainly poetic.

Maybe Supernatural will go super progressive and send Eileen to Hell too. Maybe the Queen will find herself in a loving polyamorous threesome for the rest of eternity?

Wouldn’t it actually be really fun if Supernatural ends with Castiel choosing humanity, and saying goodbye to his son Jack, who takes over the rule of Heaven, and at the same time Dean chooses to stay on Earth, and says goodbye to his brother (aka son) Sam, who takes over the rule of Hell as consort to the Queen in his new polyamorous relationship with both the Queen and his girlfriend? Dean and Cas live out a happy human life knowing they are the proud parents of the new rulers of Heaven and Hell?!?

Lol. Look I’m just trying to find a compromise here that all Samwena and Saileen shippers can agree on and if there is one thing we can all generally agree on it’s that Dean and Cas need to stay together whatever happens and fuck it out on the map table. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I’m joking of course. (or am I?!?)

So yeah. I follow people who are passionate Samwena shippers, and I follow people who are passionate Saileen shippers. I consider them all people who I care about and respect. I just want everyone to get along and if a polyamorous love threesome in Hell is how we go about that then I am totally down for that. :D

I haven’t got beef with anyone regardless of who they ship with who unless they plan to start harassing people for holding a different opinion, but I’ve already blocked all those people anyway. It makes for a much easier life. Trust me. :P