#relic of creation rwby

[st-whalefall]

Listen, I love the lost fable, it’s great, it’s so much fun, but it’s really misleading (that’s the point) and a lot of audience members take it at face value.

Two things stick out to me as hints that point to Jinn’s vision being not completely, totally, really the absolute truth:

1. In volume 8, the staff of creation/Ambrosias is revealed to be one of those “give you exactly what you ask for” macguffins, after Oscar tries to go back through the portal and it’s shown the portal is one way, a la “A one-way ticket to Vacuo.”

2. In volume 9, we’re told by the tree that the brothers Grimm were “born” simultaneously. The god of light is Not the elder brother. In the lost fable Jinn says, “It was here the elder brother dwelled beside his fountain,“ & “…all while careful to make no mention of [the god of darkness]’s elder,” and we now know this to be false.

Bring these two pieces together (and other things but were focusing on point 1 & 2 for brevity) and we’re meant to find Jinn’s vision suspect.

What did Ruby ask Jinn again?

“What is Ozpin hiding from us?”

So, what Jinn showed them was not The Truth. But what Ozpin thinks, what Ozma believes, to be true.

And the characters took that vision at face value, but we the audience are meant to question it.

[iamafanofcartoons]

Seshirukun gives us Alyx from RWBY with 3/4 of the Relics.

www.twitter.com/Seshirukun1/status/1670897837008142347

[nightlilly0110]

I don’t know if this has been talked about before but the conditions placed on the Relics are the antithesis of what each of them stands for.

The Lamp of Knowledge limits the number of answers anyone can ask, basically 3 per lifetime (unless you’re Oz or Salem and can loophole that shit).

The Staff of Creation destroys what was previously created (delete your art).

The Crown of Choice creates indecision by showing you all the little ways your future choices could cause you potential harm (Fairytales of Remnant, The Indecisive King, although that might have just been whatever Oz has going on).

Which makes me wonder what the condition (or perhaps the price) is for the Sword of Destruction. It has to be something opposite of its purpose, based on the pattern, but creating something isn’t really a price, per se, unless maybe you’re forced to create a monster? More Grimm? Another Salem? Does Oz even know what this one does? Has it ever been used before?

[marcart122]

RWBY Colours of May Days 12, 13, 14, and 15: Summer, Choice, Creation, and Knowledge

I know I'm a day late posting this here but hear me out:

[lizarr7]

Aaaand, some *more* of my Hound girl.

This is a picture I've been working on for a long time. Ver different style than I'm used to, and also a lot more involved, so it was a bit tricky to get figured out. Overall though, I'm pretty happy with it.

Also want to mention, my character doesn't actually have a leash bolted to her neck in her story, that's not canon XD It's just symbolism. As is literally everything in this picture.

[cdawgy2]

I’m about to start theorizing everyone.

So the only two relics we haven’t seen in action are the Sword of Destruction and the Crown of Creation (that’s what they are, right?). Now, it’s probably pretty straightforward what the sword does, but you know what I think the crown does?

Nothing.

At least, not whenever like the other relics. It’s kind of like Aerith’s White Materia. I think that the relic of choice can only be activated when it is united with the rest, and when they call the brothers back to Remnant, that is when the choice will come into play.

This could also tie into the “Tai has the crown” theory. Because the crown is effectively inactive, that means it doesn’t generate a passive magic field like the lamp did that attracts grimm. Therefore, Tai is able to hide it in his basement without worrying about an army of beowolves tearing his house apart.

[bobauthorman]

The Spirit of Knowledge was impossibly beautiful woman.

The Spirit of Creation was an impossibly beautiful man.

So what's next? What would the Spirits within the Relics of Destruction and Choice would be?

For destruction, I'm guessing something like a skeleton. Skeletons have always been the de-facto image for death, destruction and such.

Choice, I'd just be spitballing. But maybe a tentacled thing covered in eyes, to represent all the potential possibilities. Or a potato.

[bionic-penis]

Unfortunately it's means very much to me that yang always rushes in to save Ruby and how it's there from the very beginning

[rachetmath]

Weakest link

Cinder: Hello.

Jaune: Cinder.

Ruby: What do want?

Cinder: Salem wants all of you gone so she sent me her strongest agent to take care of all you peasants.

Jaune: Wow really? She sends her weakest agent to deal with us. Pathetic.

Cinder: Um excuse me.

Jaune: I said what I said. I mean come on she could have at least sent a more competent ally.

Cinder: Competent? I am capable to take care of you.

Jaune: Ruby can stare you to stone and we can kill you after. Hell isn't that the reason you had Neo fight alongside you?

Cinder: um.

Jaune: Speaking of Neo, how did she end up falling into the Ever After? You can fly so you could have caught her.

Cinder: Um…

Jaune: Oh no, why? Why did you let her fall?

Cinder: She threatened me!

Jaune: How?

Cinder: You see, we made a deal to kill Ruby together. As long as I get what I wanted.

Jaune: Which was?

Cinder: The relic of course and the maiden powers.

Jaune: I mean that was your fault. You fumbled the bag on maiden powers twice. Regardless, Neo brought you the relic. Twice

Cinder: And?

Jaune: And did you keep your end of the bargain?

Cinder: Well-

Jaune: No. Especially since she fell with the target. Has she ever complained or defied your orders?

Cinder: I mean no- I mean she brought it up but still.

Jaune: You mother- so Neo was being a decent person to you. And you decided to repay her by killing her. For nothing.

Cinder: … …

Jaune: Not to mention you used knowledge and now it's useless to everybody. Meaning Salem, who is in Vale, probably looking for the relic of choice, vigorously. Because somebody, you, used up the last question which would have made it easier to find. Dumbass.

Cinder: I mean… it's not that bad.

*Somewhere else*

Tyrian: My queen. Are you sure?

Salem: Yes, Tyrian, I want you to kill her and make Gillian my new maiden. And if you feel the need to, kill Mercury as well.

Tyrian: But ma’am-

Salem: Tyrian, Watts is dead. Ozpin is still alive and now the relics are useless to me. Both of them are. Because I don't have a scientist to use creation, you know, in order to construct and build new ways to upgrade the Grimm because Cinder left him to die.

Tyrian: … oh.

Salem: Cinder has failed me not once. Not twice. Not thrice. Not four. But five. Five times that girl has failed me.

Tyrian: What is the fifth one for?

Salem: Team Rwby.

Tyrian: Ah.

Salem: I let her side too many times. Six will not be the last. If she makes another mistake, get rid of her.

Tyrian: Yes my queen.

*Back to Cinder and Jaune*

Jaune: You dumb as hell. You are most definitely the weakest link.

Cinder: I-

Jaune: Heaven Academy, you and Raven were working together so how was Yang able to get the relic?

Cinder: Because Raven betrayed me.

Yang: Then how did Vernal die?

Cinder: I killed her.

Jaune: You got to be f***** with me right now. You killed Vernal, why?

Cinder: Maiden powers.

Jaune: … … …

Emerald: I should have probably mentioned this but we had a plan before but she changed it at the last minute.

Cinder: Emerald!

Emerald: I don't work for you now.

Jaune: Y'all had a plan before. Why didn't you use it?

Emerald: Ruby.

Jaune: Of course… of course. Ruby. Ruby is the main reason. And you… … you didn't -*laughs* you still haven't killed her yet. *laughs in harder* You- you had so many opportunities and still didn't kill her. Heaven I can understand but Atlas. Atlas. You didn't even attempt to look for her. You had so much time on your hands and you didn't do shit. Wow. Oh my God. *Laughs even louder*

Cinder: *embarrassed* you still can't beat me though.

Jaune: Oh baby for how many times I topped you, it's only a matter of time before I am fully capable of taking your life. Shit I almost did.

Cinder: Damn it. Well since we're on the topic, you, Jaune Arc, are the-

Jaune: No. I'm far from being the weakest link.

Ruby: Well I mean-

Jaune: Yang and Blake decided to give information to Robyn who before was prepared to start a fight with the military. Which caused us to be deemed traitors.

Ruby: Okay but-

Jaune: Yang loses many of her fights and sometimes she gets an attitude which escalates the situation making it worse than it needs to be.

Ruby: True But-

Jaune: Weiss barely does anything. In fact there were moments she was completely useless. And she has a variety of skills in her reservoir.

Ruby: Well-

Jaune: Qrow is a weaker link than all of us.

Cinder: *laughs*Damn right. You're right Jaune. *laughs louder* Like he saved Amber at the last minute. He should have had a glimpse of who we are. Mercury remembered before he could remembered us. And what so crazy was we infiltrated your school right, which should have cameras. He couldn't even try to identify us. Not that he could though considering he was an alcoholic so he probably forgot about us.

Jaune: Yeah he was. He even started a fight for no reason.

Ruby: Jaune-

Jaune: And then Heaven he was horrible. He was getting whooped more than us except Weiss. She had it worse.

Cinder: In Mistral and Atlas. Speaking of Atlas, Tyrian was under his watch. Tell me, why would he work with one criminal and then Tyrian against another hunter on duty. Then when Tyrain kills them and gets away he turns himself in. For what?

Jaune: Damn. He is an idiot. Worthless ass mother f****.

Ruby: Okay, Cinder I can ignore, but Jaune, that's my uncle and my teacher, please stop insulting him.

Jaune: That explains a lot on how your such a f*** up.

Cinder: Damn! Oh no, how is it possible for the whole family to be filled with weak links? *Laughs* Oh God. Oh God. No wonder their family is messed up.

Yang: *tears falling*

Jaune: Anyways Cinder, you are Salem’s worst ally. You have screwed her and your allies so bad that you might as well be the hero of the story.

Cinder: Huh.

Jaune: I mean a lot of Salem's plans have been compromised because of you. You and Ruby might as well be same because you both are a hindrance to those who work with you.

Cinder: Okay I let some of what you said slide but -

Jaune: Oscar stole your girl.

Cinder: … …

Jaune: He stole your only bitch. He upgraded from loli to hotty. No effort. Neo, who I'm sure isn't dead, will return. With a vengeance. And not just her. You got Raven. You got Winter. And you got myself coming after you. You might as well give up cause you ain't going to make it and what’s crazy about this is you brought this upon yourself. You're done. Give up. You had multiple opportunities but you fumbled all of them because of your damn ego. Better run and make a new life for yourself because if we catch you, you're done. Game over. Finished.

Cinder: Oh shit.

[anthurak]

Weird thought I had while working on an answer to that list of Salty Asks:

Does anyone else feel like Hazel is just a bit... undercooked, as a villain? At least when compared to Cinder, Tyrian and Watts.

To be clear, I'm not saying he's a bad character. He's got his great moments and his whole arc and conflict with Oscar and Ozpin is solid. It's more that he doesn't exactly have the same presence as a VILLAIN like the others.

Now you can certainly argue that this is part of the POINT of his character; that he's not actually a bad person and is being manipulated via his grief and anger by Salem. But particularly looking back in hindsight that kind of puts him in a position of the villain we're all just waiting to have his big change of heart and switch sides. Even as early as Volume 4, Hazel was pretty obviously the 'least-villainous villain' of Salem's crew, and he never really stops being that. He never really even DOES anything all that real overtly villainous. Well, aside from the all the child-punching.

Plus this ties into an even bigger contrast/sorta-issue: Looking back at Salem's inner circle, Hazel has this distinct 'What do you actually DO here?' vibe compared to everyone else.

Cinder, Tyrian and Watts? Each of them have very clear REASONS why Salem would want to recruit them, particularly in hindsight:

Cinder is Salem's loyal Maiden, key to the Vaults and possibly part of her Grimm-Hybrid experiments.

Tyrian is an absolutely deadly and fanatically loyal murder machine.

Watts is the absolute hard counter to ALL things Atlisian. And also tech support.

And Hazel is, uh... extra muscle, I guess?

You see what I mean, right? Why exactly DID Salem recruit Hazel specifically?

There's even an argument that each of Salem's four underlings have qualities specifically geared towards getting Salem one of the Relics:

Cinder is obviously the Fall Maiden who can open the Vault of Choice. Watts, again, is the secret weapon to cracking open Atlas to get at the Vault of Creation. And we may find out that Tyrian's skills make him particularly effective in Vacuo.

So then... HOW exactly was Hazel specifically meant to help get the Lamp of Knowledge? Again, when you look back at the Battle of Haven at the end of Volume 5, it feels like he was just there to be extra muscle.

Now I don't think all this is a huge problem for Hazel. Like I said at the start, I think as a character he's pretty solid and has a great arc and payoff.

I guess it's more that when compared to a lot of the rest of RWBY's villains, especially his three co-henchmen to the big bad, Hazel feels a bit underdeveloped/toothless.

[bestworstcase]

Genuine question, but where did you pick up "the Brother cult is a common religion in modern day Remnant" from? At least, I'm pretty sure you've said this before on here; my memory is pretty bad lol.

I'm just curious since I've been rewatching RWBY lately, and i remembered that, and I thought it was interesting bc I never once saw or picked up on anything that would suggest that in canon (unless it's like, a headcanon on your part, in which case feel free to ignore me, I'm not here to needlessly criticize a fun headcanon if that's the case loll, i have my own fantasy religion headcanons bc I'm unhinged abt worldbuilding).

If you don't mind, I want to explain my reasoning/thoughts on why I don't think the Brothers are worshipped on modern Remnant (feel free to pick them apart):

-> Qrow says that "not many people are super religious these days". Mind you, I don't take much stock at all in what characters say, especially not in RWBY (i frequently side-eye characters who speak on the Oz merge who aren't Ozpin himself, Light, or Jinn), but i feel like this would be an odd thing to say if it wasn't true. This is supported by The Shallow Sea fading into just a 'fanciful creation myth', as well as none of the main or even side characters being religious (though it could be bc it's just not important) nor discussing religion. Churches don't seem to be common (aside from the one in v4), and imagery of what seem to be altars are scattered and infrequent. Religion is also never brought up when discussing the kingdoms' governments either. So, so far, Qrows line holds true.

-> When Qrow talks about the Brothers, RNJR never really shows that they recognize the story, or at least that they don't put weight on it, unlike finding out the Maidens are real. They're just like "...okay so why is that important", unlike how I imagine religious people would react to finding out their God(s) are real. Plus, Qrow has to explain it to them; if it was a well known religious story, I'm sure the writers would have written it more like "So, you know [insert religion name]? Yeah, according to Ozpin, that story is real. In case you aren't familiar, let me explain it for you... [insert convenient lore dump for the audience]". Plus, the way Qrow phrases it gives me the impression that it's an obscure story. Weaker point, though, I'll admit.

-> In any of the times that we see what *might* be evidence of religion (i.e. the candles/altar in the White Fang in v4, the church in Ruby's v4 short), there's no religious iconography depicting the Brothers (at least, nothing that I've caught). In general, there doesn't seem to be any dragon imagery in modern Remnant (again, nothing that I've caught yet).

-> It's depicted as a fairytale. When Ozpin asks for Pyrrha's favorite fairytales, the first thing she says is The Tale of the Two Brothers. It's also in his fairytale book, something i feel would've been a controversial (if extremely funny) decision if it was a popular religious story (like if you put Jesus' crucifixion in a book including rapunzel and Cinderella).

-> Also, there's no common sayings including the Brothers (like how fics like to have the characters say "Oh Brothers" and other variations).

-> And, in general, Oz's inner circle really wasn't at all concerned with the Gods or really even the Divine Mandate. All they knew was that the Gods created Remnant, humanity, the Grimm, and the Relics and promptly abandoned Remnant, and that "If someone were to collect all four [Relics], they'd be able to change the world." And that that's "exactly what the enemy wants." So they only know the absolute basics of the Mandate, and the way it's worded implies (to me, anyways) that Oz worded it in such a way that cautioned against collecting the Relics (which is very interesting to me. This also tracks with how he depicts the Mandate in TTOTTB). So in general not even the inner circle feels like Brother/Light followers to me, just Oz followers (in general i imagine the events of the infinite man made him learn that bringing up judgement day is a Bad Thing, considering before bringing it up the Circle flourished, but after spreading the message, it was immediately destroyed. Instant karma. Poor dude). Though this starts leaning into the territory of my theory that Oz actually gave up on his mission (which like, could be wrong, but I'm holding onto it until I'm proven wrong), and I'm sure you don't wanna hear that one lol.

In general it seems to me like there isn't a Brothers-centric religion so far, even though Remnant still has organized religion (albeit uncommon). But I'm honestly not sure if I missed anything? I'm sure as hell not the type to comb through every background to see if I did lol.

Sorry for the long ass ask. Take your time answering, and have fun picking apart my reasoning. Please be nice abt it tho 👉👈 I just want to know your thoughts and if i missed anything that proves it's a modern day religion :)

-🌙

okay. first, at the risk of being condescending: religious people believe that their gods are real. you know that, right? religion is not a big game of play pretend. people who practice religion do so because they believe in it.

yes, religious people can and do experience doubt. but a religious person whose doubting and questioning leads them to conclude their god(s) aren't real don't continue to practice the religion they don't believe in. i mean, they might make an outward performance of doing so if it's unsafe for them to leave and they're likely to keep cultural practices and even moral frameworks--see: ex-christians who are exactly as dogmatic and puritanical about whatever new belief system they've adopted--but people who don't believe in gods don't practice religion. 

this:

They're just like "...okay so why is that important", unlike how I imagine religious people would react to finding out their God(s) are real.

is a fallacy you're making because (i presume) you aren't religious and have never been so; i suspect you just don't have any frame of reference and consequently you're projecting your own skepticism onto the hypothetical religious people in your imagination. to be clear, i don't mean this as a personal attack on you--this is a very normal thing for people to do when we're trying to conceptualize experiences that are profoundly different from our own.

my background though is evangelical christian. i was raised in a staunchly religious household attending church 2-3 times a week; i attended a christian school until transferring to public school in fifth grade; i've been to bible camps and conferences where they teach you how to evangelize to nonbelievers and that kind of thing. i'm not talking fundie cult here, to be clear--this was a relatively-by-evangelical-standards socially liberal and theologically mainstream nondenominational protestant church--but christianity was the central organizing structure of my life until i left home. i'm agnostic and fundamentally disagree with the moral framework of christianity but i know a lot of very devout christians and i'm very familiar with the religious praxis. 

(including what genuine, good faith evangelical proselytization looks like--not door-to-door like what e.g. mormons do, or street corner chick tract fundie cult behavior, which is what non-christians typically think of as evangelism. but that stuff is a tactic high-control religious groups use to strengthen identification with the in-group through rejection and alienation by the out-group--evangelical churches that aren't culty don't do that, and in fact the idea that door-to-door and street corner preaching is an isolation tactic used by predatory religious groups is something that was first explained to me in sunday school by the people who taught me how to evangelize. put a pin in this for now.)

so: i'm not imagining hypothetical religious people when i say this, i'm imagining a few hundred specific religious people whom i personally know and how they would react in an equivalent situation. 

what qrow does in 'a much needed talk' is he sit the kids down, goes "not many people are super religious these days… there's a lot of (false) gods people have made up throughout history, but y'know, these two are real. here's the truth…" and then tells them a simplified version of the two brothers creation myth. 

he doesn't do anything to prove that these two gods, in particular, are real. he gives zero evidence. he doesn't even demonstrate that magic is real. this isn't "finding out" that the gods are real, this is uncle qrow doing a little impromptu sunday school lesson like that's an explanation for why some lunatic attacked us earlier. this is like if some rando tried to grab you on the street and pull you into an unmarked van and i saved you and me and the van guy clearly had some sort of history because he knew my full name so you asked me "WHO WAS THAT GUY. WHAT THE FUCK" and i said okay sit down, the first thing you need to know is that in the beginning, god created the heavens and the earth…

regardless of your personal religious beliefs or lack thereof, you would probably go "…what. does this have to do. with the van guy who ATTACKED ME" because that's like, truly a bizarre non-sequitur. but it's not like God Himself is descending from the heavens in a flaming whirlwind to demonstrate his existence. it's just me telling you he's real. 

if you're a christian, in this scenario, that is not in any way a revelation to you. that's akin to, like, "the king of england is real." BIG IF TRUE?--you know this. you already know this. if you are a christian then you believe that the christian god exists and is the one true god. in this hypothetical scenario i'm telling you things you already know and believe foundationally to be true. a devout christian would probably respond more in the vein of "amen! god is good!" but one whose practice is casual--the christmas-and-easter christians--and secular christians would absolutely be "okay and…?" in an equivalent situation to 'a much needed talk.' 

hell, come to that, i'd be asking what this has to do with the crazy guy who tried to kidnap me if i were in that situation. who cares that my dead headmaster was a true believer or whatever i want to know about the guy with the knife! you feel me?

the type of person whom i can imagine making a big deal out of qrow's little creation myth are:

reddit atheist types who cry and scream and shit bricks if they have to talk to somebody who believes in a god; you know. the kind of person categorically incapable of talking about religion in any capacity without at least one sneering "sky daddy"?

someone with no previous exposure to this religious tradition or anything remotely like it. imagine if i were to sit you down and earnestly tell you that the only Real Gods were, like, the hero twins who descended into the underworld to challenge the lords of death to a ballgame. you'd probably be like "HUH??" because hunahpú and xbalanqué are not a cultural reference point you're familiar with in the way that you're familiar with the crucifixion of jesus christ.

like, all religions are fucking weird. the christian gospels are not remotely less weird than the popol vuh, or whatever. you're just familiar with the essentials of the gospel story--even if you're not and have never been christian--because christianity is culturally dominant in the west. and the familiarity makes it normal. unremarkable.

invisible, in a way. 

this is something the writers of rwby really get. if something is normal and ordinary in the world of remnant, the characters don't pay attention to it, even if it's bizarre to the audience. to use a non-religious example, civilians don't know what aura is! it's not common knowledge! we know that because jaune's never heard of it, civilians in vale are shocked and confused when penny stops a truck with her bare hands, and oscar (who has dealt with "occasional grimm" before) has no aura training and doesn't know what a semblance is. but to the rest of the characters, aura is a completely mundane aspect of their day to day lives and they're a little taken aback by characters like jaune and oscar who don't know about it. 

with that in mind, i want to really underscore something about the things qrow tells RNJR in 'a much needed talk' and the way the kids react. 

because. first, qrow gives them the same intro level rundown on the maidens that pyrrha got in v3--offscreen because that's shit the audience has already heard and don't need to be rehashed. the kids are like, "that's a lot to take in," and jaune in particular is like "this is all very sketchy, what the fuck is actually going on." 

THEN, apropos nothing, qrow drops "not many people are super religious but These Two gods are actually real btw" and an abbreviated creation story, with NO proof and NO apparent connection to the maniacal cultist who ranted and raved about his body and soul belonging to his goddess-queen who sent him to "retrieve" ruby for her. and none of the kids express the slightest bit of skepticism about this super out of left field sunday school story, no one is like "what the fuck" or "are you drunk"--ren just goes "okay but how. is that relevant." 

whereupon qrow finally tells them about the relics hidden under the schools and salem wanting them and that BAD THINGS will happen if she gets them. and then, jaune the skeptic goes: "alright, so let's say we believe all this--there really is this crazy evil being behind these attacks, not just some thugs trying to become powerful. why doesn't the world know?"

THAT'S the part he finds outrageous and difficult to believe. not that the two brothers are real, but that SALEM exists. salem. these kids literally JUST got attacked by a lunatic cultist who kept babbling about MY GODDESS HER GRACE THE QUEEN and directly stated that he is cinder's associate and referred to the white fang and torchwick as pawns, but the thing that makes them go "wait but this is crazy and makes no sense" is qrow explaining that there's a malevolent entity called salem who orchestrated the attack on beacon and sent that guy to capture ruby. like, objectively, from a purely logical standpoint, that's the least unbelievable thing that qrow tells them. 

but people aren't rational agents. and one thing this scene does very effectively is establish the relative normality of each major chunk of information through the way the kids react:

maidens? "there are four special people who can do magic without dust? and when they die that power passes on to someone new? that's. well that's a lot to process but. sure."

brothers? "and this is relevant how?"

salem? "that's crazy how could someone like that possibly exist without everybody knowing about it? why should we believe any of this!?"

salem is so fucking far out of their previous understanding of how the world works that they all kind of have a kneejerk "that! can't be real!" response even though tyrian shouted from the literal rooftops that he's working for a 'goddess' who was behind the attack on beacon.

but the maidens? they have a frame of reference for magic--magic is what anyone can do with dust, and ruby…petrified a massive grimm with her eyes somehow a few months ago, so like, it's not THAT unbelievable to accept that an old story about four maidens who can do magic without dust is true, apparently. 

whereas the stuff about brothers… nothing. not one of these kids so much as blinks even though. again, from a purely logical standpoint, the creation of remnant by the brothers is the most fantastical part of qrow's explanation. but the kids don't react that way, because it's normal to them. ergo they're either casual practitioners of brother-worship or brother-worship has cultural hegemony in vale and mistral, where RNJR grew up.

now! it's actually a simple matter of text whether the second possibility is true or not and this is the part of the answer where i have to just say: you're factually incorrect actually. 

-> In any of the times that we see what *might* be evidence of religion (i.e. the candles/altar in the White Fang in v4, the church in Ruby's v4 short), there's no religious iconography depicting the Brothers (at least, nothing that I've caught). In general, there doesn't seem to be any dragon imagery in modern Remnant (again, nothing that I've caught yet).

there is a big statue of the dragon brothers smack in the middle of the train station in mistral. one gold, one dark. very unmistakably a depiction of Those Two. this is in v6 so if you're only up to v4 on your rewatch you can't uh, be expected to remember. (<- i am just unhinged enough about fictional religion i can tell you off the top of my head that yang and ruby swear by God in v1 but the ship captain in v4 swears "by the gods" and i think that church in ruby's character short implies maiden-worship on the basis of the statue of the cloaked young woman in front, details of this kind just stick in my memory for nerd reasons.)

[as an aside why would… the white fang… have an altar to mankind's gods… like. there are no faunus in 'the two brothers' and the culturally dominant religion among faunus is worship of the god of animals, as ozpin notes in his commentaries on 'shallow sea' & 'judgment.' the trappings of religion that we see in the white fang's private spaces are… obviously… god of animals-worship. this feels half a step shy of saying "well the altar in salem's war room doesn't have any draconic iconography, so therefore brother-worship isn't a thing." brother-worship is explicitly not the only religion in existence!]

-> Also, there's no common sayings including the Brothers (like how fics like to have the characters say "Oh Brothers" and other variations).

in v7, 'pomp and circumstance' specifically, ironwood says "brothers know you deserve it" in reference to RWBYJNR receiving their huntsman licenses. and a quick round up from the novels:

after the fall: "thank the brothers you found us," said by a bit character.

before the dawn: "thank the brothers," said by octavia; "by the brothers," said by finn asturias when he learns what his kids are planning

roman holiday: "thank the brothers," said once by neo's mother and once by a bit character. 

there are also general exclamations of "my gods" or "by the gods" and general references to "the gods" both in rwby proper and ancillary materials, with "gods" being in far more frequent use than the singular "God"--gods, plural, doesn't necessarily mean the brothers every time, because qrow does make a point of noting that remnant's people, collectively, worship "dozens" of gods. but it is pretty evident that the dominant religion across the four human kingdoms has more than one god, and the coincidence of that with, taking the novels into consideration, characters from literally every kingdom except mistral which has a honking big statue of the brothers in its train station swear by the brothers… yeah the dominant religion globally is brother-worship. probably not in menagerie. but in the four human kingdoms, yeah. 

-> It's depicted as a fairytale. When Ozpin asks for Pyrrha's favorite fairytales, the first thing she says is The Tale of the Two Brothers. It's also in his fairytale book, something i feel would've been a controversial (if extremely funny) decision if it was a popular religious story (like if you put Jesus' crucifixion in a book including rapunzel and Cinderella).

…and the second is 'the shallow sea,' which is also a religious myth. 'the story of the seasons' is alsowhat we'd call a myth, not a fairytale. 'the girl in the tower' is the only story pyrrha names in that scene that is actually a fairytale per se. in general the delineation we make between "fairytale" and "myth" in the real world, as discrete genres of folklore, doesn't seem to exist in remnant--legends and fairytales scattered in time, and all that. the conceit of rwby is about engaging with fairytale-as-myth, so this is a very intentional blurring; like, this is a narrative where maiden-in-tower IS the creation story, fundamentally. rapunzel is orpheus is prometheus and that's how the world was made.

and that's the kind of thing that we as the audience have to just accept as a fact of the fictional reality, because… like… gestures at 'the shallow sea.' 

ozpin included THAT one in his book of fairytales, too, and in his commentary he explicitly describes it as part of a closed(!) oral tradition whose inclusion he deliberated for fear of being disrespectful. he devotes more than half of his commentary to justifying the choice to include it, and the rest to describing the myth's cultural context to his (presumed human) readers. he asks forgiveness for "overstepping himself." 

and it is very obvious, in the way ozpin talks about 'the shallow sea' in particular and the book generally in his forward and afterward, that his concern is not "it is grotesquely horribly disrespectful to place this profoundly meaningful and important creation myth (of a culture that is not my own) in a collection of frivolous fairytales" but rather "this book is meant to be a collection of profoundly meaningful tales drawn from all of remnant's cultures and i believe this one is too important not to include, but i am also acutely aware that it is a closed tradition to which i do not belong." the latter is still out of pocket, but the simple fact is that a character who so obviously knows that publishing a story from a closed tradition without permission is Not Okay and so obviously feels immensely conflicted and guilty about doing so isn't a character who would blithely denigrate a myth like this by publishing it in a book of trivial fairytales. and a character who would denigrate the myth that way wouldn't agonize over whether it was important enough to be worth violating the closed tradition. 

and then you consider that, out of the twelve stories ozpin put in this book, three are explicitly religious creation myths ('the shallow sea,' 'the judgment of faunus,' and 'the two brothers'), two others are myths describing the origin of natural phenomena ('the story of the seasons' and 'the gift of the moon'), and one is a mythical culture hero ('the infinite man')… so fully half the stories in this book aren't actually fairytales. they're myths. 

so the inclusion of 'the two brothers' is less cinderella-and-christ than it is "here is an eclectic collection of folklore from around the world" in terms of what would be equivalent in the real world; and… like, 'the shallow sea,' 'judgment of faunus,' and 'the two brothers,' the plain text of these stories is clearly and unambiguously religious in nature, and ozpin explicitly discusses them as such. 

his commentary on 'the two brothers,' in particular: "there are many versions of our creation story […] but certain elements are always consistent: they arrived from a realm outside of our own and together created the universe from nothing. and then they left us on our own." and "whether or not you believe in the brothers, or in this story in particular […] like the twin gods, we are intricately connected to each other" and, um:

Even if the gods aren’t real, even if they don’t return to judge us for our deeds, we should act each day as though they are arriving tomorrow. In the end, we will be the arbiters of our fates. We will either create a beautiful, peaceful world and live in harmony together or destroy ourselves and our planet, and the gods will judge what we have chosen.

remember how i said i'm intimately familiar with, specifically, evangelical christianity and what actual evangelism entails? not the deliberately off-putting door-to-door shit but proselytization for the purpose of bringing new people into a church that isn't a predatory high-control group?

the way ozpin talks about the brothers here, and the way qrow talks about them in 'a much needed talk,' is christian evangelism 101.

"not many people are super religious, these days." you know who says this type of thing? like, fucking constantly? evangelical christians. never mind that christianity is the majority religion in the US by a significant margin (66%!)--evangelical christians inhabit a constructed alternate reality wherein they're an embattled minority shining candlelight into a sea of darkness. (many of them accomplish this by deciding that most other christians aren't real christians; the classic protestant move of course being "catholics aren't christian" but your average evangelical takes a dim view of like. any denomination that isn't their denomination and when i tell you the nondenominationals are the worst offenders in this regard... lmao. anyways)

"not many people are super religious [christian] nowadays. people believe in all kinds of different gods and creeds, but there is only one true God"--this is literally just how evangelicals talk. both to each other and to non-believers they're hoping to interest in the church, although the tone depends on who's listening. internal discussions of this nature are strategic in nature--how do we reach people and speak to them effectively in these godless times? what is the right balance between presenting ourselves and our faith honestly while still creating a welcoming and accessible space for people who don't know jesus? how do we share what we believe with people who just don't care? and so forth--whereas the framing with nonbelievers is that it's innate in human nature to crave purpose and meaning and that everyone seeks fulfillment but few ever manage to find it because none of us are born knowing where to look, etc. 

meanwhile in his commentary ozpin is doing a fantasy repackaging of the pascal's wager tactic, which like. i have sat through literal educational films on the rhetorical use of pascal's wager in effective evangelism. "well, if i believe in god and i'm wrong, i'll have lived a good, moral life and lost nothing; if you don't believe in god and you're wrong, hell" is one of THEEEE evangelist talking points. ideally, one used to open a conversation with friends and/or people who have indicated interest in talking about your faith in some way, especially if they ask "what if you're wrong?" because then the idea is to demonstrate that you're not rigidly dogmatic in your faith but instead you've given serious thought to the possibility that you might be wrong, and thus show that you understand and empathize with the nonbeliever's skepticism so as to build a genuine rapport. (whether it *works* that way in practice is highly dependent on like. charisma and actual meaningful ability to click with non-christians, which a lot of devout evangelicals… just can't even when they really earnestly do try, but ozpin as a character does have the charisma and the knack for connecting with people that can make this approach effective at getting irreligious people to give "hey, come to this church thing with me?" a shot.)

i cannot emphasize enough that after the obvious one of "directly openly stated religious beliefs," the reason ozpin and qrow specifically read to me as highly religious characters is because they talk exactly like evangelicals in secular company. they talk about and share their beliefs about the brothers the way i was taught in church to talk about christianity. 

you don't go banging on people's doors or harassing them in the streets. nobody fucking likes that and it makes people not want to go to church. you don't go around with a stick up your butt about the non-christian people in your life not being christian. what you do is treat people with kindness and respect and draw firm boundaries for yourself to keep yourself safe (<- unironically growing up in an evangelical christian household is a huge part of the reason i am SO comfortable just fucking saying no to things i don't want to do and i think this is the one thing that evangelicals really have on a LOCK) while being open and honest and unapologetic about your own faith. you save the bitchy judgmental gossip and fire and brimstone garbage and like, talking about the eschaton for when it's just true believers. 

evangelical christianity is an eschatological religion, by the way. in case you didn't know that. evangelicals believe that we are living in or on the cusp of the end times and the political action of evangelical christians in the united states is motivated in large part by a desire to enact the prophesied conditions that will herald the second coming of christ. for example a lot of evangelicals like trump because they think he's a divine implement of the great tribulation. evangelicals are obsessed with and actively trying to enact the apocalypse. and rwby is straight up the only fictional story i've ever encountered that understands how an eschatological cult operates because you can NOT advertise that shit. it FREAKS PEOPLE OUT. you keep the "i want the world to be riven by unprecedented catastrophe and suffering so i can be taken up to heaven in the rapture while the wrath of almighty god crushes what remains as grapes in a winepress" between yourself and the other doomsday cultists. 

it's not like. SECRET. it's in the bible. but very few non-christians bother to actually read the bible and the ones who do are just not going to have the cultural context to know how very deadly serious evangelicals in particular are about the book of revelation or how much of a core pillar the eschatology is to evangelicalism; meanwhile american evangelicals are knowingly deliberately voting for the apocalypse. similarly,

“We must take back our gifts,” the God of Darkness said. “Reclaim our power and wipe this experiment from existence.”

“I disagree,” the God of Light said. “And we promised to share in the fate of our joint creation.” He gave a mighty yawn. “Let us rest, and when the time comes, we will see what Humanity has become in our absence. At that point, we will judge them. If they are worthy, we will take their forms and walk among them as equals. If not, we will take back our gifts and start over elsewhere. What do you say?”

“Who will decide whether they are worthy?” the God of Darkness said.

“Humanity will make it plain. If they come together in unity and find a way to destroy the evil in the world and within themselves, then they are worthy. If not … we will let them burn,” the God of Light said.

“So shall it be.” The two brothers agreed. But even in rest, they needed some distance from each other. Each dragon transformed himself into a new continent at one end of their world.

And there the dragons still sleep, until the day that the gods will waken, rise, and judge.

ozma's mandate is not a secret. the apocalyptic final judgment is clearly and emphatically spelled out in the myth of the two brothers, which he included in an anthology of tales intended for the general public and annotated to the effect of "i believe this one is true and even if you don't you should act like you do. btw. because it's true" YEAH MAN WE GET IT. 

(he also asserts apropos nothing in his commentary on 'the gift of the moon'--a myth that does not mention the brothers at all--that the sun is a "celestial gift from the all-powerful god of light," so either 'the gift of the moon' is brother-cult doctrine or ozpin is pointing at a myth from another tradition and making it about his god.)

the main difference between ozpin and your average evangelical is that ozpin fears the end times because he doesn't believe anyone will be spared. but his behavior is the same. his way of presenting his religiosity in a way that minimizes and obfuscates the eschatological intention at the core is the same, if not more intense because the material reality of his situation, as the accursed chosen one literally commanded by God Himself to immanentize the eschaton, is a lot more terrifying and desperate. 'the infinite man' is quite literally a veiled autobiographical story about how he figured out that he CAN'T… go around just… TELLING EVERYBODY… that he's MAKING READY FOR THE FINAL JUDGMENT.... because people don't fucking like that and will kill him and put his cult to the sword about it.

that emphatically does not mean that he doesn't still believe in it; it means that he has, in the same way that evangelical christians in real life have, figured out how to code-switch. there's the public face for mixed company where you're friendly and humble and make a concerted effort to live by the virtues of your faith while being open and unapologetic about your religious identity while maintaining a posture of respectful invitation toward everyone else and engaging in meaningful ways with people you personally know to gently encourage them to explore your faith…

…and there's the private face for when it's just you and your fellow true believers and you're talking in intricate detail about how current world events line up with this or that prophesy about the end times. ozpin in public is the mixed-company evangelical to a T. and ozpin in private with people who have been informed of the whole situation re: maidens, relics, salem is like "i am the divinely-ordained champion of the gods and we must stop her from getting her hands on the relics that My Schools were built as fortresses to defend."

in 'the lost fable' these kids literally hear the god of light say with his whole chest that mankind will be found irredeemable and destroyed if they are "unchanged," and they do not even blink. 3.75 volumes spanning months later, they STILL haven't really registered that the god of light holds the view that not a single person alive on the planet RIGHT NOW TODAY deserves to live. why?

because they knew that part already. not the precise detail of ozma being the one who's meant to decide when the world is fit for divine judgment and actively invite the brothers back, but the final judgment and the need for humans to be United when the day of judgment comes lest they be burned to ashes? They Knew That. it is invisible to them except inasmuch as salem embodies, to them, the danger that mankind will be condemned, because it's normal. regardless of their personal religious beliefs or degree of religiosity, they're all familiar with this story to the point that hearing God Himself promise to exterminate everybody didn't even mildly startle them. they knew. 

like. fundamentally. the story as-written and the way the characters present in the lost fable do not react whatsoever to the divine ultimatum does not make sense unless every single one of them already knew the story about the dragon-brothers who created the world and then departed and will return to judge humanity's worth, to either reward them with completion or wipe them from existence. and because the kids seem to fall in the zone of irreligious to casually religious the simplest and most likely explanation is that there is a global hegemony of brother-worship, akin to christianity in the west. 

taps the sign. and this sign too.

like. in one sense it's a question of your frame of reference and specifically whether you know what deeply religious people are like and how an eschatological religion actually functions in the real world or if your mental model for what this looks like is drawn from, like, pop culture fundamentalist caricatures. i can tell you that the way qrow segues into and tells the brothers creation myth is something i can imagine almost verbatim coming out of the mouths of elders in my parents' church and that ozpin's commentary on the same myth is a point-for-point translation of christian evangelism into his fictional religion. i can tell you that your presupposition that a religious person "finding out" the god(s) they believe in really do exist would feel any kind of surprise or revelation about it is baldly incorrect in a way that leads me to believe you have zero real personal experience with religion or religious people. i can tell you that your presupposition that the secular democratic institutions of government in the kingdoms means there can't be a religious cultural hegemony of brother-worship (or any other religion) is, again, just factually not correct.

but in another and, in many ways, more important sense: rwby is a story about a religious conflict. there are two gods who destroyed the last world and a promised day of judgment that will be ushered in by four divine relics, each guarded by fortresses that act as the central hub for each plot arc, and the overarching narrative conflict is about a power struggle between two people--the immortal agent of rebellion against the gods and the divinely-appointed chosen one tasked with preparing for the final judgment--fighting for control of these relics. that's the plot. 

why are you reading scenes where the characters intricately involved in this power struggle talk about religious matters like the existence of gods and divine relics and divinely-ordained tasks as evidence that these characters… aren't religious? why are you reading actual myths that are textually presented as religious stories as… not a religion? why are you looking at a character commanded by God Himself to unite mankind, who in the present day speaks incessantly of the importance of unity and existential threat of division, who annotates the aforementioned explicitly religious myth with an exhortation to act each day as if the gods will return to judge you tomorrow, and concluding that he… is not religious and does not fundamentally believe in any of it?

what do you think a religion is?

and in this story, of all stories--when the central narrative conflict is overtly a war over divine relics left behind by the gods for the sole purpose of bringing about the final day of divine judgment--why in the world is it your baseline assumption that religion is not something that matters very much within the world of the story? why do you take qrow saying "not many people are super religious these days" completely at face value to mean "most people are agnostic/atheist and religion has no cultural relevance whatsoever" even though the next thing out of his mouth is "but these two gods are REAL" and even though, a single volume prior, his colleague said "what we're telling you goes against hundreds of years of human history, religion" and insinuate that consequently the truth would cause uproar and panic to justify keeping the maidens a secret?

i think that ozpin and his inner circle are religious because they speak and act like it and the core purpose of their "brotherhood" (as they call it) is to safeguard the divine relics while they publish religious myths about their gods and talk about how those gods are real and nothing is more important than keeping the divine relics safe. if it acts and looks and quacks like a duck and repeatedly turns to the audience to say that it believes in ducks, i believe it's a duck. i am not going to say "well it complained one time that there aren't a lot of ducks left in the world, so i think it's actually a chicken." that's nonsense. 

[sir-adamus]

One thing I love about RWBY is how it manages to thread that needle of, "That's a person" & "They have a reason for being this fucked up" without forgetting or failing to convey, "Doesn't mean they aren't still being bastard!"

See Adam, Ironwood, Salem, Mercury, hell even Jac got some of that treatment, as much as his narrative role needed and more than someone like him would usually be given.

In that regard though, it does always leave me vexed and confounded that people act like the Brothers will be some big exception. As though their issue is just that they are a little confused and don't understand some things, but once its explained and or they go home, it'll all be chill.

Like, sorry but if the woman they tortured for potentially millions of years still gets the "She's still being a bastard" treatment I cannot envision why the Brothers genocide would avoid being framed or treated as such.

yeah it's kind of weird how people have a blindspot for the gods being petty, arrogant assholes in the backstory; like it's been a weirdly common trend to see people making posts claiming it's fine for the gods to be assholes because they're gods (and therefore shouldn't be held to any kind of moral standard whatsoever), or thinking that post-volume 9, now the goal of the show is RWBY reuniting the relics to summon the gods because "the world is united" and the gods will deal with Salem.

like, the terms of Salem's immortality are made very clear, and these jackasses aren't gonna rescind on their punishment of her (which i need to point out was immensely disproportionate even before the mass genocide. "you need to learn a lesson, so now you can't die until you do" is fucked up) just because everyone else is on the same side.

and on top of that, the gods returning only means hanging a Sword of Damocles over humanity's head, because if they don't stay united, then it's just gonna lead to another disproportionate tantrum and Remnant getting the full scorched earth treatment. not to mention the gods dealing with Salem would ultimately prove her right and be immensely unsatisfying narratively (it would literally be a deus ex machina)

RWBY borrows heavily from Final Fantasy and other JRPGs, and a major recurring element in those sorts of games is that defeating the present big bad in the narrative is never the end of the story, there's always a greater scope threat that's usually either your dad or god or both. coupled with how Light and Dark are heavily influenced by mythological gods and how those are often petty, short-sighted and abusive bastards who cause more problems than they solve, and we've recently been outright told that the Brothers have completely misunderstood what 'balance' is and how that's factored into their conflicts and decision making, and how that then filters down to their treatment of Salem, demanding she understand something they don't and expecting her to learn it through the punishment they inflicted on her only ended up causing more damage

Salem's defeat has to be factored into ending her curse, and the end of volume 9 makes heavy implication that it's RWBY, not the Brothers, who are going to achieve that. but even with Salem then out of the picture, the Brothers are still a threat, they still wiped out the population of an entire planet for childish reasons and routinely abandon their creations; someone else could go for the relics to try and summon them, so there's the potential damage they could do to Remnant again, and who knows what same horrors and punishments the Brothers are inflicting on the worlds they've gone on to make and abandon since?

[blake-me-up-inside]

Ruby Overthrowing Ironwood was Remnant’s Win Condition

Ok, so not directly. Let’s start with the obvious here. Shit hit the fan at the end of Volume 8. Atlas crashed and destroyed both it and Mantle, Salem got the Staff of Creation, and Penny died.

However, we’ve practically been told what the endgame is. Per the Relics page on the RWBY wiki:

It is said that each contains great power, and if anyone were to wield all four they could change the world. In truth, bringing the four together will summon the God of Light and God of Darkness back to the world where they will pass judgment on Humanity. If the Human race has come to accept one another and learned to live in harmony, the Gods will live among them as before and make them whole with the ability to use magic again. If Humanity remains divided and demanding of them, however, the Gods will destroy Remnant and all its inhabitants.

It honestly doesn’t matter what the Relics can do. Salem’s endgame is to bring them together while keeping the world divided so the world will be destroyed and she will hopefully truly die.

Ironwood’s plan was to take Atlas high in the sky to keep the Staff and Lamp out of Salem’s hands. Now, I firmly don’t believe that would work longterm as she’s shown to be very creative with Grimm and would likely manager her way up there one day. Morally, this is also bad because it pulls Atlas’s military might from the rest of the world, leaving the rest of humanity to fend of themselves. The most immediate fallout is, of course, the people of Mantle being slaughtered as a “necessary sacrifice.” It’s then obvious that the rest of history plays out with Salem razing the rest of Remnant before taking out Atlas and claiming the Staff and Lamp and The Brothers return and destroy what remains of the still fractured Remnant.

Ruby, unknowingly, made the best move for the long term. She undermined Ironwood and put out a message to the rest of the world about Salem. That information alone gave the world a common enemy and a common threat. Ruby also put her money where her mouth was and saved the people of Atlas and Mantle from the immediate threat of Salem’s invasion. And we see at the end of Volume 9 that people of all nations have gone to Vacuo. The atmosphere still isn’t great, but this is humanity’s best chance to unite. Because if humanity learns to live in harmony, Salem’s end goal is a moot point.

And we know this is more than likely how the story ends. RWBY is a fairy tale. There’s no doubt in my mind there will be a happily ever after.

[ficretus]

*during Volume 7*

Ruby: General Ironwood, me and my team have some... concerns about your leadership.

Ironwood: *with his back turned* What's an issue?

Weiss: Well first you closed Kingdom's borders.

Ironwood: Necessary precaution. We must impede infiltration of Salem's agents with any means necessary. When Salem sends her people, she is sending her best.

Yang: Then you called Mistral "a shithole Kingdom."

Ironwood: That is not language I usually use, but I stand by my stance about Mistral. I assure you, nobody knows more about Mistral than me.

Blake: Then you claimed Robyn Hill is Vacuan agent sent to undermine Atlas. And you keep demanding to see her birth certificate.

Ironwood: And I am yet to receive those papers.

Ruby: But most concerning is... that cap you are wearing.

Ironwood: What is wrong with my cap, am I not allowed to make rash fashion decisions?

Weiss: You really shouldn't make rash fashion decisions.

Ruby: General Ironwood... turn around.

*Ironwood turns around revealing MAHA cap*

Ruby: Make Atlas High Again?! This was never about saving Remnant, you just want to launch Atlas into stratosphere and leave the rest to die!

Yang: I knew we couldn't trust you!

Ironwood: Wait what? That would be crazy and unsustainable plan. No, my plan is far more reaching. *reaches for his pocket*

Blake: He might be pulling a weapon!

*RWBY reach for their weapons*

Ironwood: This is the key to MAHA plan.

Yang: That's a... blunt.

Ironwood: You see, after I lost my limbs I was prescribed medicinal marijuana for my phantom pain. It seemed silly initially, but then it awakened my Semblance, Woodstock. Every time I smoke weed it clears my mind and I get brilliant ideas.

Ruby: I'm confused.

Weiss: So every time you had a secret meeting with your inner circle... you were... you were... smoking weed?!

Ironwood: Yes. Your sister is way more pleasant and honest conversationalist when she is high.

Yang: Wait, how? I tried it while I was in Branwen bandit camp and it only made me more cranky.

Ironwood: You didn't try the good stuff. And this just confirms my stance on Mistral.

Blake: Nothing beats good catnip.

Ruby: Look, I am gonna ignore this whole post has been hijacked by weed jokes. What exactly is your plan General Ironwood?

Ironwood: Before Atlas gets high, it needs to get low. We are gonna land Atlas before using Relic of Creation. With it, we are gonna create a massive eternal blunt. Using the Winter Maiden power, Specialist Schnee will spread its fumes across the Remnant.

Weiss: How will that fix... ANYTHING!?

Ironwood: It will work as a double protection. Salem and her agents will be neutralized by relaxing effect of the blunt. Grimm are immune to it, but they'll have nothing to latch onto since everyone will be spreading positive vibes. It's a foolproof plan.

Yang: Have you lost your mind? That will never work!

Blake: Subjugation through hedonism. That's a gross violation of free will!

Weiss: I said no to drugs long ago! I am not gonna be defeated by glorified second hand smoke!

Ruby: I'm afraid we have to stop your plan General.

*RWBY pull out their weapons*

Ironwood: Stop me? Did you really think I would parade around with this cap and tell you about my plan if there was a chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it... 35 minutes ago.

*smoke enters the building*

*5 minutes later*

Yang: *giggling* You know what, I loooooooove you Blake!

Blake: Really, just like that?

Yang: Why not, did you expect me to confess while hanging over chasm or something.

*Bees kiss*

Weiss: *giggling* Great, I took one whiff of it and I immediately find myself in indecent company. Mom was so right about drugs.

Yang: Oh, it's gonna get even more indecent. Where is Ruby?

Weiss: She is zooming around the building. Do you think this plan actually worked?

*elsewhere*

Cinder: Maiden powers are so lame, it's the exact same power repeated four times. Such a dumb thing to obsess over. Screw it, I'm getting laid.

Emerald: Me, me, me.

Cinder: Someone loyal, bold, responsible...

Emerald: Me, me, me, me, me.

Cinder: Blond...

Emerald: Sigh, not even with weed.

Salem: I feel like everything I have done just keeps spreading... negative vibes.

Tyrian: Whatever you say my Goddess.

Salem: I am cancelling this whole end of the world thing and getting back with Ozma.

Tyrian: Aw...

[chaosmagetwin]

Pietro making a fatherly sacrefice to bring Penny back actually make sense, especially when V7 already teased us about it, it could play importent in Penny's character having her being on the other side of the sacrefice learning how it could hurt others. I was talk specifily about the parf of her dying from the virus after Pietro give his last aura that make it pointless. This is how I think it should go:

They got Penny's body back and used the Relic of Destraction to destroy the virus but they still missing her aura, which is where Pietro comes in, he give the last of his aura to bring Penny back for real and sacrefice his life

I keep seeing this and don't know what to say. The only thing I'd add is that Salem needs to have Penny's body on hand for some reason besides "it bothers Ruby", since as far as she knows, RWBY+J is dead.

Otherwise though, yeah!

Pietro dying isn't necessarily required, although it would certainly be a decent box to tick. I think if we're taking theming of "Sacrifices hurt others", I think Pietro living might be a valuable lesson on what to do, rather than what not to do. Cause, IMO, Penny dying is already a useful lesson in "hey sacrificing yourself hurts others, just talk to Ruby for a little bit". Pietro doing it right would cement the theme a little bit better maybe? I do think both are good roads, though. The message is less about Penny learning the lesson, and more about the viewers.

Honestly, there are so many ways they can do this to save Penny, and one of them might even be "Hey, the time period they came out in? Not modern day! It's the past!" by however much they want. Everafter is weird, magic is weird. For the Penny thing, the ideal point is right before they enact their plan with the staff of creation. For the Salem Problem, it'd honestly be in her time period, before she goes to fight the gods and becomes immortal. But then we still don't get Penny, so, fuck that.

[strqyr]

Yknow I was thinking about whether or not Oz knew about the Ever After again, and i remembered something

The vaults aren't on Remnant, and neither was the central evacuation point (since it used the mention of the vaults as a blueprint). We don't know how they were made, just that they could be connected to the Ever After since they seem similar. Plus, when the evacuation point was made, the place looked extremely similar to the Blacksmiths workshop and led directly into the Ever After

Of course, pocket(?) Dimension creation isn't a particularly unique idea, but we don't know if normal magic is capable of such a thing and the Staff definitely didn't create them. So like,, HOW did Oz make the vaults?? How did he get the idea? Why are they seemingly connected to the Ever After?

And I'm just. Lost LOL I think these things are connected but my only idea is that Oz somehow only knew about the Blacksmith/the Blacksmiths Workshop and not the Ever After, but idk. The vaults are so WEIRD why are they Like That. Ofc we don't know anything abt the other Relics, so maybe they were involved somehow, but who knows loll. Thoughts??

yeah, the vaults are definitely a HUGE question mark in all of this. like. . . who even made them in the first place? oz makes sense, since there's a lot about the vaults that is connected to him—the maidens being the keys to them, their location within the academies (with vale being the odd one out, and oz saying he made finding the relic there more challenging)—, but then, how did he do it? like you pointed out, certainly not with the staff, and if it's something he's capable of just doing, why not. . . like. . . do it again? but in different spot? to keep the lamp safe instead of out in the open?

unless it's tied to his waning magic, that is, but still; making something like that with just magic, a space that's not even on remnant so how did oz have access to that space in the first place if he didn't know about it (was he trying to access the space he met light on, and the rest is just, idk, happy accident?) is definitely like. where's the limit in all of this.

the other possibility for the vaults is that they were made by the god of light to house the relics until ozma found them, and while there could be an explanation for the maidens being keys (the keys are really the four gifts, and oz gifted his to the maidens so he's no able to open them anymore, but each maiden is their own corresponding vault), it would be wildly convenient for each vault to be located in a place where the biggest cities of the kingdoms would eventually be build.

and again, oz did say he made finding the crown of choice more challenging to find, and at this point in time it doesn't sound like salem's crew at beacon has even managed to find the old location—say, an empty door frame like the one in haven—after a year or so of searching, so i'm not getting the vibe that he moved the relic / vault at later date from beacon to somewhere else; rather, it was always planned as being different from other vaults in terms of location.

and then like. okay, oscar says oz "has no explanation what might have happened to [those who fell]", and if i'm right that this switch from "our friends are dead" from nora's section of the epilogue to "searching for an answer for what might have happened to them" with oscar (+ sun and neptune doing the same in their own way) happened due to qrow arriving to vacuo with raven, who, thanks to her semblance, would know that yang is alive, but unable to reach her. . . they'd have to have some idea, bc oscar and oz would know that team rwby used the vaults as an example for what they wanted the evacuation zone to located in; it's just the question of what's below (the ever after), but then it raised the question of where the blacksmith's realm is located in, and if that's the same as the central location or not.

like the orbs are there. that's a shared thing, but they're also different colors—orange and teal—, same as choice and knowledge. so is it the same space but different location of it? or completely different realms altogether?

also what's up with the big structure in the central location. ambrosius did not create that. why is it there in an otherwise empty space???

i'm not sure if any of this makes sense, got me rambling for sure lmao but, i guess, as a result of all of this, i get the feeling we simply don't have enough information to come to a real conclusion. it's just bunch of ??? but wait, what about. . . and then some more ???

really feels like it's missing that one piece of crucial information that would make it make sense, but we don't have that, so instead here i am, running around like a headless chicken LMAO