#rand's relationships

[thehopefulquotes]

The question isn't who's going to let me; it's who's going to stop me?

Ayn Rand

[cannoli-reader]

I would push back against putting Aviendha and Elayne anywhere but Tier 1. That's the basis of their relationships with him and his affection for them, that they only see the man and regard the figure of prophecy and his channeling ability as irrelevant. This goes on, so I'm putting a cut here...

Ignoring Sanderson, unless his depictions jibe with something developed in Jordan's books, Aviendha and Elayne don't actually interact with him AS the Dragon Reborn/Car'a'carn. That he holds these positions is irrelevant to them, and their own responsibilities make that more significant, they don't invalidate that.

Aviendha might cite that Rand is the Car'a'carn in arguments, but it's always over something personal, like his need for self-care and such. When she (or Elayne) talks to him about his job or duties, they are telling the man how to deal with the situation in his life, not advising the Dragon Reborn on how to to his thing. That's why Elayne's behavior in Tear is so important to Rand, because she is not speaking to him as an initiate and loyalist of the White Tower, or a member of the royal family of Andor, and future queen & Aes Sedai, she is only dealing with him from the position of a woman who wants what is best for a man she cares about. It's the same when Rand comes to Caemlyn. He even tries bringing up political issues to distract him, and Elayne ignores it all, insisting on sticking to the topic of their relationship. The only hint of any politics is Rand's later recollection that off-page, Elayne convinced him not to participate in the conflict over the succession, but again, the phrasing that the throne was Elayne's to win, sounds more like it was on the level of a personal appeal to let her do her thing, rather than the interests or issues of Andor vs the Dragon Reborn.

It's the same with her tearing down the banners. It's a thing that never comes up between them, because Elayne wasn't doing it to Rand, she was acting in response to the mindset of the country. All her posturing of neutrality and opposing Rand on the issue of Andor's sovereignty is a pose for public consumption to get her own goals, she is not using or interacting with Rand, and we all know that she's going to follow him to the hilt, putting all the resources Andor can muster. She's pretending to be opposed as much for his sake as hers, and more than Andor's. She might think things like "Rand is the love of my life, but Andor is my duty" but that's got nothing to do with him being a fellow monarch (based on the Jordan books, that is a datum which never comes up in Elayne's PoV, which is a pity, because it might have been amusing for Mat to throw her comment about attracting kings back in her face), it has to do her not being able to go to her boyfriend when he needs her. When Elayne does act differently because Rand is the Dragon Reborn, it is because other people put those constraints on her. If anything, Elayne's policies wrt the Dragon Reborn are what are affected, because that happens to be Rand.

To sum up, if Rand were not the Dragon Reborn, Elayne would not behave one bit differently toward him. If the Dragon Reborn were someone else, Elayne would be dealing with that person very differently (even setting aside physical intimacy).

It's the same with Aviendha. Her perception of Rand, and behavior toward him, is shaped entirely by her experience in the rings of Rhuidean, and then later, the relationship that develops. Supposedly her assignment is to teach the Car'a'carn everything he needs to know about Aiel culture, but she sucks at that. The Wise Ones float the excuse that Rhuarc who would otherwise be the obvious choice for Rand's Aiel advisor, is more of a battle leader than a diplomat, which is a blatant excuse to do what they want. Say what you will about his diplomatic abilities by Wise One standards, he's miles ahead of Aviendha, especially in her current frame of mind, of being pissed at both having to give up the spear, and Rand, personally. And her lessons and choice of topics are obviously heavily influenced by her feelings about him and their foretold relationship. The Wise Ones DGAF how bad her advice is, or about the gaps in her lessons (except, in the abstract, regarding her development as a future Wise One), they just want Aviendha and Rand interacting and engaged with one another, hopefully to fall in love, but mostly to give the Aiel a human face in Rand's mind.

Yes, there is her monologue to Rand when she believes him unconscious after the watchtower falls at the battle of Cairhien, but it's pretty blatant that she is lying through her teeth when she says she wants him to survive solely because of her toh and her people. Elayne and the prophecies are simply excuses for her to avoid confronting feelings she does not know how to deal with. Later, after the battle, when Rand speculates about the Wise Ones' attitude towards him, she physically withdraws, plainly have been reminded of their intentions and expectations regarding the couple. In Caemlyn, when Rand butts heads with Sulin over his bodyguard, Aviendha agrees with Sulin, intellectually, on the issue of guards for the Car'a'carn, but that takes a backset to her sympathies being Rand and her enjoyment in his besting the Maidens' leader in a contest of wills. When she later demands that the Maidens report on his whereabouts, it's not regarding security and access to the Car'a'carn, it's about toh between Aviendha, Rand and Elayne.

As with Elayne, Aviendha is only ever interacting with, or thinking of, her foretold lover, her friend's boyfriend or her love interest, and Car'a'carn is simply a job he has. Rand's assumption that her strong reaction to the mention of his death is because of her dedication to her people and the importance of the Car'a'carn to them, or her toh to Elayne, is simply another example of Rand being clueless about his love interests. The reaction is entirely from seeing him unconscious after falling from the Tower, struggling to keep fighting after she was passing out from channeling fatigue, and then waiting for him to recover from his self-imposed exhaustion. The Wise Ones could have told her the night before that he had fulfilled all the Prophecies of Rhuidean, the Aiel were saved for the next age and Rand's term as Car'a'carn was now over, and she was relieved of her obligation to advise and watch him, and she would not have reacted one bit differently when he said he can rest once he's dead.

Another way to put it is that the difference between the attitudes of Elayne & Aviendha to Rand, and Min towards him, are entirely about THEM, not how they see HIM. Basically, the difference is between two girlfriends who have careers, and one who does not. That one of them is free to come visit her boyfriend at work and hang out and chat when he's free does not indicate that his job is a key part of their respective perceptions toward him, or that the other one is more accepting or indifferent to his career. It just means she has more free time. Elayne was doing the same sort of thing as Min later would, when she was similarly free, in Tear.

Now it's entirely possible that I am misinterpreting something about the intended meaning of these tiers, but even if no hierarchy is intended, Egwene really does not belong in a category with Elayne & Aviendha. While the OP is pretty spot on about her mindset ('rival for attention' is a great way to put it), it's not that she forgets that he is important and keeps measuring him by the wrong standard, rather she hates that he is so important, and is actively pushing back against it. She doesn't barge in on Rand, insult him or cite childhood memories because she forgets he is the Dragon Reborn, but because she is extremely aware of it, and hates it and is actively trying to denigrate his importance and build herself up by knocking him down. She doesn't take issue with his forbidding racist violence by the Aiel in Cairhien because she is taken aback by a shepherd giving orders (or likes racist violence. Probably.), but because Rand is in a position to give orders. When Egwene learned he was "just another poor damned fool who can channel" she embraced him and said she doesn't care, and her subsequent behavior largely backed that up. All of a sudden, however, Rand appears in the sky over Falme, dueling Baalzamon, and leaving everyone who witnesses it certain that he is the Dragon Reborn, and all of a sudden, she is telling Min that he's not boyfriend material, because "he's not safe." Also, note the slight hiccup in her kindness toward Rand after she hears that the (noble)women of Fal Dara are seeing him as a potential husband for one of their number. Suddenly, she's all snitty and lecturing him about entering the women's quarters (even though she arrived in time to hear his explanation that he hadn't tried, and was absolutely responsible for his one transgression in that regard), putting him back into what she sees as his place. Her friends and neighbors might suddenly see Rand as someone who could be accepted in the Shienaran peerage, and Egwene's immediate reaction is to emphasize to him their relative power in this setting. Also, notice that her only ideas for hiding Rand from the Aes Sedai involved the absolute worst hiding places for Rand in the whole fortress, one of which would be far more accommodating to his pursuers, being a place for women, which he is not, and the other extraordinarily counter-intuitive for any fugitive, dungeons not generally being built with the idea of helping people evade the authorities. But they are both places where Egwene perceives herself to have the upper hand, because she does, or because she is familiar thanks to frequent (unauthorized and unwise) visits. She is very enthusiastic about going to Rand's aid in the Tower, despite the clearly suspicious nature of Liandrin's invite, when she can view him as helpless victim to be saved. The attitude from book 5 on whenever Rand asks for her help from a position of power, is a complete 180 from how she reacts when she thinks she is the powerful party in their relationship. She's also precisely wrong when she claims that Moiraine would keep Rand's secret from the Aes Sedai & Amyrlin but they can't be sure about Lan. But Rand is much closer to Lan and Egwene appears to have an edge in their dealings with Moiraine, who, from the outside, might seem to be favoring Egwene, because she is able to reveal more of her interest in Egwene, and address that directly, than she is with the boys, at least until she can reveal he is the Dragon Reborn. Regardless of the facts of the matter, Egwene is going to claim, however undeservedly, that her friend is the better ally, just to have a leg up in their discussion.

It's the same in EotW, where she repeatedly disbelieves Rand, for no real reason. He is never established as a teller of tall tales or a braggart who tries to inflate his own importance. But she does not believe him about seeing the Myrddraal (or rather, does not believe Mat & Perrin when they tell her - Rand knew better than to bother). She does not believe him when he tells her the Trollocs are after him & the other two boys, despite Moiraine & Lan standing right there, and not calling Rand's supposed bullshit. She also refuses to believe he met the Daughter-heir to Andor, despite everyone else in the room being ready to accept that he met the Queen & her Aes Sedai advisor, and reacting with some concern, on Moiraine's part. If Moiraine believes him, why won't Egwene accept that he met the Daughter-heir? Is it so improbable that she'd be there, too?

It comes down to Rand's importance. In the village, prior to the Trolloc attack, novelty is highly valued. Padan Fain despite his unprepossessing appearance and obvious character defects, is a figure of importance and receives deference from the villagers, because he can bring them news. People are thrilled at the visiting strangers, because they represent something new and unusual, and are thrilled at the gleeman, because such are rare in the Two Rivers. The boys being able to tell people about seeing something unique or unusual would give them a minor bump in status and make them, however temporarily, a locus of gossip and conversation. The other things Rand says that she refuses to believe, even more so. As Perrin says, their adventures don't compare to meeting all the most important people in Queen Morgase's court! Note too, that when they reveal the dreams with Baalzamon, Egwene is weeping in reaction. Of all the people to be weeping, Egwene is the least affected by the news, and of all the things she has encountered, this should be fairly low on the scale of tear-inducing. But what is the result of her weeping? Nynaeve is comforting her, not the boys who have been apparently targeted by the Dark One himself. Mission accomplished. Nynaeve compliments the boys on the road to Fal Dara, and Egwene has a "good-natured" insult ready. She is furious with Rand on meeting his future lovers, not because it is possible that she believes he was in any way unfaithful to her (or is constitutionally capable of it), but specifically at the moments when they ask about him turning the conversation momentarily away from Egwene al'Vere, amazing new super-novice and The Most Interesting Person in the White Tower.

Nothing in this pattern of behavior fits someone who keeps forgetting that her childhood friend is important and famous, but it provides a firm grounding for her subsequent habit of actively trying to tear him down. And that really fits with the meta of it all, where lack of knowledge or miscommunication has such powerful effects, and we nearly get the Fateful Concord 2.0 between the reincarnation of Lews Therin and another leader of female channelers, arising from petty childhood jealousy.

Also, Perrin is kind of a shit friend. Maybe his classification is not incorrect, but he is always expecting the worst out of Rand, and tends to have the least charitable outlook, and most unreasonable expectations of what Rand can do about Perrin's problems. But this is TL;DR enough.

The fact that none of the other Aes Sedai are able to see that the reason that Rand holds Nynaeve and Moiraine in high regard is because they gave a shit about Rand al'Thor as a person is fascinating to me.

The White Tower looks down on men who can channel so much that the only two Aes Sedai who care about Rand are a woman who was basically an older sister to him and a woman who spent her entire adult life away from the Tower. Like, blood and ashes that's messed up.

[moonstarsandspacedust]

I just started the fires of heaven and I’m obsessed with how Rand:

1) shows next to no interest in the various women coming onto him

2) sees a naked woman and his only thought is “wow she’s sunburned”

3) has multiple homoerotic encounters

And then describes a man as “probably attractive to women”. In conclusion: Robert Jordan was a coward.

[markantonys]

THEEEEE POINT of rand is that, in the end, the reason he's able to succeed where lews therin failed is NOT his power, it's his good heart and the support of his found family. in the end, he's not a warrior hero, he's a philosophical hero. rand's fight in the last battle is a fight of philosophy and ethics, and it's his friends who are out on the frontlines of the physical fighting, leading armies and protecting him.

so people complaining that the battle with ishy was changed from Solo Rand Power Trip To Show Why He Is More Special Than The Other Characters to a moment of all his friends gathering together to support him, protect him, fight with him, and remind him that he is not alone in this and that they're stronger when they're together...............i'm sorry, but i truly don't think you read the same books i did. (and before you come for me, rand is my second favorite character in the whole series after elayne, so don't come in here saying that i Just Don't Get It because i don't love him enough.)

[ladylingua]

Barthanes: You must be my aunt’s Warder

Moiraine: Oh no, he’s-

Rand: A friend.

Moiraine: Mmm…can’t quite say that

Rand: A traveling companion? Your mentee? A colleague?

Moiraine: Eh

Rand: A man I respect?

Moiraine: so this is Rand

[thoughtkick]

The question isn't who's going to let me; it's who's going to stop me?

Ayn Rand

[perfectquote]

The question isn't who's going to let me; it's who's going to stop me?

Ayn Rand

[endlesslytired]

[resqectable]

The question isn't who's going to let me; it's who's going to stop me?

Ayn Rand

[feroluce]

Lucid Dreamer (2/2)

part 1

Gepard stalls almost a week before he finally goes out to the safehouse, and it takes him a couple days to find it because Sampo didn't have the time left to be wasn't super specific about the location. But he does find it.

It's pretty bare bones, really. Gepard knows that was probably to be expected, but… It feels crushing, when he realizes there are so few personal things here. It's nothing specific to Sampo. Just some food, some medical supplies. A cot and a heater and a lot of mismatched blankets. Nothing to remember someone by.

But he does find the letters, in a metal box stashed away under the bed.

There are two for him. Three for Natasha, and two for Seele. One for Hook, one for Serval, one for Pela, one for Bronya.

Bronya's is mostly business. They knew each other from the whole Stellaron incident, but not much beyond that, and the incoming catastrophe is a more pressing matter. Seele's is actually two copies of the same letter, and Gepard realizes why when Seele is so angry she rips the first one up without reading it. He gives her the copy a couple days later, and she slinks off without a word.

Pela seems completely normal after hers is delivered, but Gepard knows better than to trust that. The next day, he finds her asleep in bed with Serval, bottles abandoned on the floor, both their eye makeup smeared and running and Pela's glasses horribly smudged and crooked on her face. Serval doesn't read hers in front of him, but she's clingy with Gepard, Pela, and Lynx for quite a while after. She throws herself into her work a lot. She insists the heater from the safehouse is busted and she needs to keep it. It's too dangerous for use by someone who's not an engineer. Might burn their house down or something. Gepard doesn't argue.

Hook's letter is short, with easy to read words. The rest of it is actually a treasure map, and she and the moles spend the next several days running through the Underground, finding hidden candy and toys. Hook asks them when Sampo is coming back, because one of the marbles she found from his map looks green, just like his eyes, and she wants to give it to him. Natasha shoos Gepard out of the clinic before he can even begin to think of an answer.

Natasha refuses to let him see what's in her letters, which ok, fine, he'll respect that. He hears from Bronya who heard from Seele who heard from Natasha herself though that one of the letters was a map and the other a catalogue, with all of Sampo's hidden "warehouses." Gepard promptly marches himself back out to the frontlines, where he can turn a blind eye. If a ton of stolen goods suddenly enters the black market, and if the orphanage and the clinic suddenly have new supplies, well, technically that's none of his business.

Gepard goes to bed, curls up under mismatched blankets and closes his eyes.

He doesn't dream.

One of Gepard's letters was also business, like Bronya's and Natasha's. He and Bronya follow everything meticulously, down to the letter, because there has to be some good to get out of all this, there has to be. Gepard can't let it all be for nothing, it would bury him.

And so the catastrophe passes. Not without casualties, and not without a lot of damage and destruction. But Belobog survives.

And after that, time just kind of…goes on. Gepard has been a part of the Silvermanes since he was old enough to enlist. The Fragmentum had gotten so much worse in the years before Welt sealed the Stellaron. He knows the statistics, it is literally his and Pela's jobs to keep track. He knows when he sees a face everyday in the camps and then it's suddenly gone. He's not unfamiliar with things like grief and loss.

He still catches himself checking the trashcans and the supply crates and soldiers' footprints sometimes, though.

But there comes a night where Gepard goes to bed, holding the mismatched blankets to his face, and he dreams. And it's strange, it's off, it sticks with him. Sampo doesn't look the same. He's thinner. His muscles have atrophied. He looks like how Gepard has seen soldiers after months in the hospital.

The most unsettling difference is there's a scar across the left side of his head, Gepard can see it over his ear, peeking out past his hairline, carving towards his cheek. Sampo is always careful about his face. Gepard once saw him dodge a Fragmentum monster and literally let it cut across his neck just to keep his face clear. He wouldn't let that happen for nothing.

Their actions in the dream itself aren't new. Sampo seems tired, run down and worn out, but he announces his presence with aplomb by lobbing a bunch of smoke bombs off the rooftops and sending his soldiers scrambling. Same shit, different day.

The new part is what he says when Gepard chases him out to the edges of the camp, tackles him into the snow. Gepard pins him to the frozen ground to detain him and Sampo doesn't even fight it, just looks up at him like he's seeing sunrise for the first time in months.

"I'll be home in one week."

[cannoli-reader]

Yes, but also no. The betrayal only happened with the sex, and it's not the betrayal of Elayne, per se, but of Aviendha's commitment. No Aiel recognize Elayne's claim. The Wise Ones have amicable dealings with her, the Maidens aid and abet her pursuit of Rand in Tear, but both groups are the leading shippers of Rand & Aviendha. They don't seem to have the concept of a relationship commitment or betrothal, since marriage occurs immediately upon acceptance of a proposal, and the groom is not involved in the planning or preparation. So there is no social issue involved, no Aiel (including Rand) recognizes any existing relationship between them.

She is also not that close with Elayne, that their friendship would make her leap to defend Elayne's romantic aspirations. "We are friends, I think" is how she describes their relationship when next they meet, and means it dismissively, in that their friendship is not yet enough to share a man. "friends, I think" is not exactly how one would describe a person for whom you go to extreme lengths to get her the guy she wants.

The guilt and toh she feels later come because of her promise to watch him for Elayne. And that promise comes in the confab between Wise Ones and Aes Sedai & their respective pupils, after Moiraine & Aviendha have returned from Rhuidean, after Aviendha's emphatic refusal to have anything to do with him, and expresses her hatred of him. It's Egwene who suggests watching him for Elayne, and Aviendha accepts that condition as a way to back down before incurring the wrath of the Wise Ones, and as we later see, as a focus of her efforts to divert Rand's attention away from her.

Elayne is the excuse to try to avoid what she fears. If what she fears is the betrayal of her commitment to uphold Elayne's claim, the simplest way to evade the subsequent incurrence of toh is to avoid the commitment. By Aiel rules, she does not owe Elayne a thing before she makes that statement, and they are not, by her eventual admission, really at a "bros before 'ho's" stage.

Secondly, Aviendha is angry at Rand, and the betrayal of Elayne is her own doing. Rand owes Elayne nothing, regardless of her feelings, which she has not shared with him. The Aiel adhere strictly to a code of personal responsibility, with no excuses permitted. If you do something to incur toh, if you commit a dishonorable action, the toh and the loss of ji is entirely on you. You don't get to shift the blame or demand satisfaction. For Aviendha to hold Rand responsible, for a promise she makes without his concurrence or knowledge, is pretty absurd, and flies in the face of the fuss over Sulin meeting her toh to the gai'shain. If Rand can't claim responsibility for an order he gave Sulin, someone as hyper-scrupulous as Aviendha is at that stage of her life would not dare blame him for her own dishonor.

We later learn that Aviendha saw the sexual encounter, and from her nightmare that Egwene clandestinely observes the last night in Rhuidean, and her words immediately before they have sex, she seems to have seen that physical pursuit would have been a part of it. On top of that, we have her mindset at the time. Aviendha is upset and resentful over having to give up the spear to become a Wise One, and also, having to follow a man who gets to go to Rhuidean, where she has to go, who has a choice where she does not, but is choosing what she wishes she did not have to do. We later learn that all her life, she only ever wanted to be a Maiden, but that is being taken away from her, and on top of that, in the rings, she sees that she is destined to marry Rand. Not just have sex with him, but marry him. She later tells Elayne that she saw that she would find sister-wives. And for the Aiel, that is supposed to be an area where the women are in control. The choice to marry or not is, or should be, hers, and here she is discovering that this is yet another choice that seems to be taken away from her, one more loss of freedom, one more degree of estrangement from her lifelong dream. How could she choose this? How could she ever decide on a relationship with this wetlander, whom she already resents over their inverse relationship with Rhuidean, and from what little she understands of romantic affairs, failed to do right by the last woman he was involved with? Clearly she would not, this is impossible, and that incident where he runs her down and sexes her up, nope, that is not her doing, she does not consent, never would, never will. And she comes out of Rhuidean, and what is the first thing she sees? That guy watching her climb the mountain naked. He was in and out, he is relaxing comfortably while she is finishing up one of the most trying experiences of her life and she is supposed to believe she would voluntarily sleep with this asshole? And so she gives him a look that makes Mat react pretty much the same way he does to Couladin.

That is not a proportionate response to any kind of dumping he did or might do to a girl he dated for three days. This is not the visceral reaction to seeing a lot of worry and concern over a toh that various circumstances combined to prevent her meeting. It's not the look you give a man who is going to get you to betray a woman you are not yet sure qualifies as a friend.

While I would not say that what Aviendha saw would seem like rape to an objective viewer, the depth of her reaction and her preoccupation with choices and consent at that point in her life, made her perceive it as a violation in one way or another, and treat Rand as an imminent perpetrator, at least until she has time to cool down and realize that Rand legitimately has no such intentions, and furthermore, that it is her own (over)reaction to what she saw that is setting up the events. Her adamant refusal to have anything to do with Rand led to her making the commitment to look out for Elayne's interests (and she knows from observing Elayne's & Egwene's interactions with regard to Rand in Tear, and their attitude toward Berelain, that Elayne's interests at this time do not encompass other women in the relationship), as an excuse to obey yet another order she did not want to, while giving herself the illusion of free will in spending time with Rand, and hoping that commitment will in turn, strengthen her against giving in to him down the road. She also uses it as an excuse to promote Elayne as a love interest to Rand, in order to divert any such interest away from herself, but by making the commitment, she has set herself up to have the toh to Elayne, and by being so hostile to Rand, she has driven him to try to make amends, and inadvertently set them up as a potential couple in the eyes of the world.

From that point on, I would say that Aviendha's pushing back against Rand is in part fighting her own growing feelings and attraction and awareness of the commitment she has made to Elayne. After they hook up, she's struggling with the toh, and sometime between the Seanchan igloo and Rand waking up after the battle at Cairhien, she has clearly been told of the Wise Ones' intention that she have a relationship with Rand for the good of the Aiel and for Rand's sake (in a response to a fan inquiry, Jordan has said that the Aiel in general believe that chiefs should be married, and even the female relative holding the position of roofmistress for an unmarried chief will actively work to find him a wife, just on general principles). By the time they are ready to leave for Caemlyn to take out Rahvin, Amys, at least, has figured out that There's Something There That Wasn't There Before. All of this means that Aviendha's duties as an aspiring Wise One and to her people, and even to Rand, require that she stay near him, that she maintain their relationship as best as she can. Her toh to him for saving her from Lanfear also requires that she help and protect him (and note how she has flipped the script on their sexual encounter - if Lanfear was trying to kill Aviendha for something that Rand did to her, saving her would be meeting his own toh and nothing more; Aviendha has toh to Rand, because she knows that it was, in fact, her choice and her free will to have sex with him, and thus, the consequences, such as Lanfear's ire and her toh to Elayne, are hers to bear). But because of her toh to Elayne, she cannot pursue the relationship further. It's a paradoxical situation, and again, not the sort of thing to make her seethe with hatred toward Rand for getting her involved in it. You have that kind of anger for a strong image, an emotional gut punch, not an ironic situation that requires a minute understanding of all the moving parts to grasp just how messed up things are for her by the time they get to Caemlyn.

That stuff in your post on how Egwene should have ended was really harsh on Moiraine! She had no choice, there were only bad options if she didn't do what she did.

Who says? The lady who tells us that the Aiel and Mat & Perrin are not in the Prophecies of the Dragon, who said that women were just as strong in the Power as men, and that the Heroes of the Horn will fight for the Shadow if the wrong person blows it?

Moriaine is not infallible, and this, in particular, is a place where the story itself introduces beforehand, reasons to doubt her assertions. Jordan does this a lot, throwing in the counter-argument before the argument is made.

When Moiraine first went into Rhuidean, we got warnings that the alternative scenarios disappear from your memory, that your mind can't retain it all. She was also told about the dangers of making assumptions about prophecies. The Wise Ones tell her that in every dream they had of her coming to the Three Fold Land, she insisted on going to Rhuidean, only for in reality, Melaine to let it slip that they dreamed Moiraine needs to go through the rings.

What we can take away from this is, is that merely by knowing the future, you alter how it plays out. This happens with Moiraine. She claims that they would inevitably end up on the docks, confronting an enraged Lanfear, but how or why would that have played out? Rand had no intention of going anywhere near the docks. He was going straight to the mustering ground to Skim to Caemlyn. There might have been a delay for the Maidens' intervention, but after being stalled to deal with Sulin's complaints, Rand would have had even less patience for potential delays. The only reason he goes anywhere near Lanfear is that Moiraine insisted he come and everyone around Rand supported her for various reasons of their own. There is also the possibility that seeing Rand & Aviendha in close proximity put their relationship foremost in Kadere's mind, and led to him telling Lanfear about them hooking up. Maybe if he had not seen them, and got confirmation in his own mind, he might not have bothered reporting that tidbit to her, and she might not have flipped her shit.

But even if she does get the word from Kadere, and go psycho looking to kill Aviendha, what good is that going to do her, if Moiraine does not drag Rand & Aviendha down to the docks to set up her "rescue"? Maybe if she comes after them, she pops in in the middle of the battle around the Royal Palace in Caemlyn, and Rahvin kills her, thinking she's after him. Or she takes a random kill shot which are prone to happen in the chaos of a full scale battle. And Moiraine does not get the credit, and keeps sliding down in importance as a mere lackey of Rand, and eventually completely overshadowed when Cadsuane arrives.

A bad faith interpretation of her character might suggest that the timelines branching from the docks were Moiraine's preference, having seen that fate and diminishment, and choosing to set up the dock fight to thwart her own irrelevance. But even putting the best possible intentions on Moiraine, she overlooked the fact that she forgot 99% of what she saw in the rings, and is misinterpreting a warning that going down to the docks has only bad outcomes, except along a very narrow path, requiring a lot of good luck to achieve.

For comparison, look at all the stuff Aviendha gives no indication of remembering from her own spin through the rings:

Rand's revelations about the Aiel backstory

Opening Rhuidean

The battle at Cairhien

Fighting Trollocs in Caemlyn

An encounter with a village of Aes Sedai who want to recruit her

A near-encounter with a Forsaken fleeing Ebou Dar

The Bowl of the Winds

The Seanchan (either encounter)

The destruction of Elayne's gateway

The siege of Caemlyn

All we know she saw was a version of her sexual encounter with Rand that seems to have made her think he was going to rape her, and that there would be a relationship with them and other women.

Absolutely nothing we know about the rings in Rhuidean support Moiraine's assertion that the encounter at the docks was inevitable once they were told of Morgase's death, and there were only three possible outcomes of the confrontation.

[stay-close]

The question isn't who's going to let me; it's who's going to stop me?

Ayn Rand

[ofthebrownajah]

This reread is just really hammering in how much I don't like Moiraine and Rand's book dynamic. In theory the unhealthy mentor mentee relationship can be good I just don't like how he wrote it. Show Rand and Moiraine's relationship will forever reign supreme in my head

[cqraa]

Leave it to rand to be an A grade ass

[surqrised]

The question isn't who's going to let me; it's who's going to stop me?

Ayn Rand

[markantonys]

i hope the logistics of the WH polycule love declarations are the same in the show i.e. everybody meets up in nynaeve's room and starts blurting out their feelings there, just so that elayne and nynaeve can have a "give us a minute" "this is MY room!" callback to s2. elayne will have her vengeance!