#pseudo bl

[ecargmura]

Opus Colors Episode 2 Review: BL Subtext Everywhere

Most important question right now: Am I able to tell who is who now? Almost; I’ll figure them all out, eventually. This episode is about observing the relationship the main pairs have with each other and with other characters. It brings about interesting dynamics for future episodes. It’s also establishing what sort of characters the main bunch have. It’s also interesting to see the formally introduced new characters.

I think that this rather character-focused episode does help establish the conflict the Graders and Artists have with each other and how it’s usually hostile as shown with Kirinoe and Mikuriya, but it can also be civil and friendly like with Shido and Kohei. Not all Graders hate Artists and vice versa. It makes me wonder what sort of art these guys will make in future episodes. I’m curious.

As a character driven episode, this one mainly focuses on the relationships the Artists and Graders have with each other. I know this is not a BL, but it’s very much targeted towards the fujoshi demographic; we all know the girls tuning into this show are the ones looking for homoerotic bromance subtext with each characters. As a fujoshi, I can sense the potential pairings via my BL goggles. Kazuya and Kyo (I called him Takise in the previous review, but Kyo’s easier to remember, so I’m gonna call him Kyo going forth) are, well, the main pair, the vanilla main ship with the high school youth and yada yada, the push-pull, will-they-will-they-not ship. Jun and Michitaka are the side pair that would probably get their own side story or a few chapters in a BL manga to themselves. Kirinoe and Mikuriya are definitely f***ing and if they’re not, they probably will. Kosei and Shido are that ship you can see either romantically or platonically, but you’d always be that ship. Yura is the violently protective boyfriend to the not yet formally introduced Iori. Sakaki is that Do-S seme looking for new prey. It was going to be Kazuya, but it seems that there’s going to be something going on with him and Ikaruga, the bookworm. The college students are the mastermind and probably have more tricks up their sleeves to make their ships canon (I think some of the readers for this review will get annoyed that I’m looking through the characters for BL subtext. I’m not sorry, though).

Fujoshi goggles aside, there’s also some character focus on our main boys Kazuya and Kyo. Kyo’s distant personality stemmed from him being the supposed blame on why Kazuya lost his parents. Oh yeah, we’re getting some sweet, sweet angst in the future. I just hope it’s written well. Kazuya, in particular, gets a bit more focus as his parents’ legacy are mentioned. Perception Art was his parents’ creation so they have a reputation. Kazuya is the living successor to that legacy, so he knows he’s a nepotism baby, but it’s ashamed of it. Wow.

Anyways, I can’t wait to see what sort of art these boys will create in later episodes. Since all boys are different, there has got to be different art styles, right? I came for the art, okay!

[lnkedmyheart]

What's gayer? But it's just every single moment that Dazai gets weird about Chuuya.

[kelvintimeline]

kinnporche’s novel got licensed for an english release, so the cover was released, and i gotta say… no drawing or rendition can ever beat the live action casting

like truly the sexiest, most fitting men were cast for that. cant be topped.

[sixohsixoheightfourtwo]

TS4 | Boys Love Media in Thailand: Celebrity, Fans, and Transnational Asian Queer Popular Culture

Strong recommend for this entire talk (it's just under an hour) which is SUPER interesting if you have even the slightest interest in why and how thailand is making so many gay little television serials (literally 100 different series this year) but also ..... this is a nugget of extremely tantalising information

[my-rose-tinted-glasses]

BL Premiering in April

01/04 | 🇰🇷🇹🇭 Love is Like a Cat MDL When global superstar Piuno is threatened by those who wish to see him brought low, there’s only one thing he can do to save his reputation and his career: work at a pet daycare. Pushing aside his severe dislike for animals, Piuno begins working alongside the daycare’s director, Dae Byeol, who helps him find ways to overcome the trauma that first inspired his hatred of animals. As his heart begins to soften, unexpected feelings for Dae Byeol begin to arise. Could their current working relationship grow into something more?

03/04 | 🇹🇭 We Are MDL For this friend group, no matter how hard their university studies are, there's always something more to do their head in; the chaos of life and love won't let anyone rest. We are... friends, but we fight each other and like each other so much we might hit on each other.

11/4 | 🇯🇵 Living with Him MDL With his parents frequently away for work, Natsukawa Ryota had been the main caretaker for his younger sisters and the housework, but now he’s finally about to go to University, he’s looking forward to being able to live freely on his own! However, in a surprising turn of events, he’s surprised to discover his roommate will be his childhood friend Tanaka Kazuhito. Despite his picture-perfect looks and pleasant personality, Kazuhito doesn’t have a girlfriend. Curious, Ryota accompanies him in searching for the reason why, but is unable to find any flaws and finds his heart fluttering over Kazuhito’s kind words and actions. As he gets to know more about Kazuhito, their relationship develops. Thus begins their cohabitation life where they’re mutually self-aware of each others presence! 11/4 | 🇰🇷 Gray Shelter MDL With no dream aside from to survive, Soohyuk reunites with his friend, Yoondae, who has no place to go. The two end up sharing space together; will this cohabitation spark something?

18/4 🇯🇵 At 25:00, in Akasaka MDL Shirasaki Yuki, a rookie actor, finally lands an audition and is chosen to star in a BL drama alongside current superstar Hayama Asami, who was also his senior at university. Feeling anxious and troubled before his first major role, Shirasaki is approached by Hayama with the proposal to form a “romantic relationship for the sake of character development” until the filming concludes. Their pseudo-romantic involvement off-screen leads to a moving and beautifully crafted love story exploring the intricacies of relationships within the entertainment industry and among actors. 26/4 🇹🇭 My Stand-In MDL Joe, the stunt man of famous actor Tong, happened to meet Ming. Having developed a deep relationship, Joe didn't realise that Ming had always seen him as Tong's replacement. When the truth is revealed, Joe has to take work on a foreign set where an accident takes his life. When he wakes, Joe's in the body of a young man likewise named Joe who'd met with an accident on the same day. With help, he's soon living the same life as he was before—with the same people—and he meets Ming once more. In this life, Ming wants Joe back at his side as before and Joe doesn't know why. Ming, who's kept all memories of the old Joe, tries to find the truth about Joe's continued life in order to return Joe to his side and give him the explanation he never had the chance to.

?/4 | 🇰🇷 Boys Be Brave! MDL Jung Ki Sub is Kim Jin Woo's slacker friend - and secret crush. So when Ki Sub asks to crash at his place, his heart tingles to be near him everyday. But as the short stay turns into permanent mooch, how long can Jin Woo keep his true feelings under wraps and hold back from confessing? ?/4 | 🇯🇵 A Man Who Defies the World of BL 3 MDL Mob realizes he’s trapped in a world straight out of a boys’ love comic, complete with typical love story scenes. Determined to remain a background character and avoid becoming the main focus, Mob tries to keep a low profile. However, in this sequel, the love and comedy intensify! In an ultimate BL world surrounded by extremely handsome men, will Mobu be able to avoid the situation where B becomes L? The main cast will return, with Inukai playing Mob, who fends off advances from handsome men tossing out “BL love flags.” Yutaro will return as his younger brother, Ayato, while Akihisa Shiono will be Tojo, Ayato’s lover. Asahi Ito will come back as Kikuchi, a college student who has a crush on Mob. Also couldn't find definite info on 🇹🇭 Knock Knock, Boys! to be sure it will premiere this month or not.

[izartn]

What's good about KnH is (besides its main char and bc of Maomao) the way it manages the power dynamics and what life was as a woman without falling into utter pessimism and powerlessness or full romanticism; which is a reason I usually avoid like the plague historical/pseudo-historical fiction with female leads.

Usually I'd be super skeeved out by the power Jinshi has over Maomao but the way the series presents both of them, their personalities and their agency (limited as it is for Maomao but it's there and it counts very much) it brings out all the best and interesting parts. I trust this series to get twisty with them bc it establishes so well Maomao own character and understanding of her situation and the ways Jinshi can and does or doesn't take advantage of his power over her.

Like. It's presented as a problematic element, but also unavoidable given their social situation and the world they live in, so I can trust given everything else this show has done when solving the mysteries and presenting us the situations of other women, that the romance will be treated with that same weight.

Honestly if you've read over what I like to read/watch in my tumblr you'll notice that twisty and even toxic/unhealthy dynamics are very much within my favorites, but it needs to be told in a certain way. And I'm much more difficult to satisfy when talking about het romance.

So to watch KnH, notice it's primarily about Maomao life and the various misteries/medicines/palace intrigue and the romance is playing second fiddle riffing on all the themes presented on the plot? And it's complex, and plays with messy power dynamics of gender and class, but never loses Maomao her personhood? Wow.

Also. Jinshi is so BL chara coded omg XD like, he's very clearly based on a kind of shojo ML prototype (hello tamaki suoh!) but it also pulls from BL in his case (nothing to do with their romances but I think of Yan Xiaohan re:his relationship with the imperial power, from Golden Terrace lol)

And yet his romance with Maomao wouldnt work near as well for what is trying to say if they weren't a man and woman (which I love in their case, is what has me fascinated). Yes~! Get into the meat of how fraught it is for a man and a woman to be together when the man has so much power over her. Get into it!!!!

He's so so messy and fun as a chara too. Sheltered and not at the same time, you really notice all the things he misses by way of his privilege of being a noble born man (and specifically royalty, last ep (19) left that very clear he was doing a ritual probably by proxy for the emperor and also bay exchanges people. Maomao noticed and buried that thought far far below her subconscious but we all now who he is lol). Like. The way he fumbles and ends up essentially harassing Maomao at the start sometimes, which is both played for comedic effect and also upsetting. Mmm.

Like I said, I like complexity.

Also that part when he buys Maomao contract and he goes to collect her and she's all dolled up, and the clear implication by everybody but our mains (who clearly prefer to live in willfully blind land although for Jinshi I think the subtext of what he's doing lands when he sees her) is that in any other case she'd be his concubine/side-wife. It's not their situation wight now, and she's put to work as a live-in maid and apothecary and put to study (he wants her to assist him in politics lol I love that, but also he's so so lonely) but it's very much what the palace rumor mill says.

LIKE. I love the messiness! It could go soooo badly, but it also could not and there's Maomao living at the edge bc despite herself and what she says, she wants more from life, but also as she says the rear palace isn't all that different from the high class brothels and ugh. That tension. She has to depend on the favor of a man as a women of low class but she also could lose her head! GAH. And then there's feels involved! Aaagh.

[sombredancer]

Recent visually beautiful and generally watchable Russian fantasy movies

(because I start forgetting they exist at all) Ironically, all of them are adaptations of books/comics.

I Am Dragon / Он — дракон (2015) This movie is a very free adaptation of the novel "The Rite" / "Ритуал" by Maryna and Serhiy Dyachenko (Марина и Сергей Дяченко). It's a reinterpreting of an ancient tale about a maiden, a hero and a dragon. I don`t like the novel because it's very postmodern, wracks the typical fairytale plot and hurts my escapist feelings by ugly reality, but the movie is pretty fairytale-ish and nice. Firstly, it is visually beautiful and represent Slavic pseudo-medieval lore the way it should have always been in Slavic fantasy.

Secondly, as a love story between a monster and a maiden, it has got A PLENTY of tropes I'm usually looking for in Chinese dramas, so I understand very well why it was pretty popular in Asia.

Thirdly, when I said it's visually beautiful I wasn't joking. The main hero is played not by an actor, but by a male model, who is shirtless all the time (and sometimes pantless) and has a very fit and good-looking body. It's something unbelievable that someone in Russia made a movie to please women's eyes! Really, it's insane!

The folk-rock band Мельница wrote an insanely beautiful song "Обряд" (The Rite) for this movie (more matched to the book plot, though), but it was never used as OST, which is a shame. The song is about a black sheep girl, who is denied by society and asks a dragon to come for her and to take her away, because the dragon is denied by this world just like her. You can listen to it here. The band also has a song "Змей" (The Wyrm) (based on Lev Gumilev's poem), which is more accurate to the plot of the movie: the wyrm kidnaps maidens to make them its wives, but they are all dying during the flight; at the end of the song a hero-knight is ready to shoot it in order to stop it. Listen to it here.

It ends with HE, which is better than the book's obscure ending, so it is pleasure for me to rewatch it till these days.

Major Grom: Plague Doctor / Майор Гром: Чумной Доктор (2021)

It is an adaptation of Russian comic series "Major Grom" by Bubble comics. I am traditionally not very happy with the source material, but it is very good reworked to be the screen play of this movie.

It's very beautifully made in terms of director's, cameraman's and screenwriter's work, which is a rare thing for Russian movies. Also, the actors are young and handsome, especially the villain, which is a rare thing not only for Russian movies, but for the current Western movies, too. It has got a lot of allusions to Russian reality and a lot of beautiful views of Saint Petersburg, the second capital of Russia and one of the most beautiful Russian cities. And it has got some unusual visual solutions that turn it into a comic it should be.

The plot revolves around a mysterious serial killer (kinda bad Batman), a black sheep police officer and Russian Mark Zuckerberg (kind of). Mark Zuckerberg is the best guy of this movie and I like him a lot! Серёёёёжа! 🧡🧡🧡

This movie wasn't popular in Russia because of political situation in the country by the moment of its release (the both sides found out in there something insulting for them and banned it), but even if it has something like that, I honestly didn't pay attention to it. It's just a nice blockbuster with a tragic and handsome villain. The villain also has got his own BL-drama (in the comics they are really lovers, it`s as obvious as it could be shown in a Russian comic).

By the way, the villain is hot, insane, ruthless, sensitive and suffering. How does he contain all of this character treats in one personality? you may ask. He doesn`t. He has dissociative identity disorder, I would answer.

I don`t know if it works by now, but some time ago you could watch this lovely movie on Netflix.

The Master and Margarita / Мастер и Маргарита (2024) This is a loose adaptation of Russian classical novel "The Master and Margarita" by Mikhail Bulgakov. I genuinely hate this book, but the adaptation reinterprets it, divides it into very interesting layers and makes it understandable and beautiful.

It`s layered, so it will probably be hard to understand what layer are we currently on if you are not familiar with the original story. The first layer is an ugly Soviet reality, the second layer is a plot of the novel that the main hero is writing, a story within a story. The third layer is the insane intertwining of the first two layers. On the reality layer the Master loses his job and freedom because of friend's denunciation and becomes star-crossed lovers with a married woman. On the novel level he meets devil, who visits Moscow by chance, and the devil gives him and his woman opportunity to live their lives being free from everything that usually tortures people IRL. Somewhere among those layers is a little plot about Jesus and Pontius Pilate.

The movie is visually beautiful. Although it feels pretty anti-Soviet, Soviet visuals of the movie are gorgeous. There were used the Stalin-times concepts of Moscow of the Future, the CGI buildings in frame came from the real architecture projects of those times. The Stalin Empire architecture style and views are typical for Moscow (but as I know, ironically, this all was shot in Saint Petersburg). It seems to me that this movie is heavily stuffed with visual allusions to the Western works: devil's escort looks like bunch of Pennywises, Margarita is Enchantress from Suicide Squad I, the scene of blood dripping is from Blade I etc. Usually, when I see it in Russian movies, it feels like plagiarism because I can recognize the reference but there is nothing except for these references . But here we have got the plot, so the allusions work as allusions and don`t irritate me.

The movie is dark, disturbing, uncomfortable. It really makes you feel as if you watch devil and his escort marching around you; they ravage, kill and destroy everything and you can only breathlessly, helplessly and in fear watch them. The German actor playing devil is insanely good. He stole the movie and I understand why it should have been named Woland (the devil's name) instead of the current movie's name. You may want to watch it, because it's very unusual in terms of plot and visuals experience, especially when you are not familiar with the book.

[distort-opia]

I genuinely believe that the sole reason why batjokes is winning against brudick is because most ppl think that "hey at least is not implied incest" but im not complaining!

Wouldn't attribute Batjokes leading to that entirely, but it's very likely a factor at play! I truly do wish (as a former Thorki shipper) I could beam the definition of actual incest into the brains of some people, and the existence of the term pseudo-incest (when no blood is involved). Ship and let ship; it's an ick to some individuals and an attraction to others-- many others, if you think about how popular porn between stepsiblings/stepparents tends to be. It's all about the taboo aspect, humanity has a history of finding that hot. (I guess the existence of the Asian yaoi/BL trope of "bottom raises their own top" would also blow the minds of some. Shoutout to Scum Villain Self-Saving System. And The Husky and his White Cat Shizun. AND--)

...Though to be fair, I think a good deal of Batjokes fans voted Brudick in the other poll so that they could get it to the finale (me included)... and now that it's here, they're voting Batjokes and not Brudick, which is resulting in the numbers we're seeing. At this point I personally wouldn't mind either winning, I just think it's funny this even happened.

[the-conversation-pod]

Going High-Low with Taiwan

And we're back! It’s been awhile since we checked in on Taiwan, and the latest offerings have really run the gamut in terms of quality. Ben, NiNi, and Shan sat down to discuss the state of Taiwanese BL via two recent shows, Anti Reset and Unknown.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Intro 00:02:11 - Anti Reset and VBL 00:13:13 - Unknown the Series 00:20:16 Unknown: The Pseudo Incest Trope 00:27:53 Unknown: San Pang, Li Li, and Family in the Narrative 00:35:48 Unknown: The Ending Stumble 00:43:32 Unknown: Adapting the Da Ge Novel 00:46:15 Unknown: Final Thoughts and Ratings 00:51:53 - Whither Taiwanese BL?

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Intro

Ben 

And we're back! This week we will be discussing the state of Taiwanese BL by highlighting two projects that recently finished for us. 

NiNi 

Shan is here with us. Say hi, Shan. 

Shan 

Hello people! 

NiNi 

Shan has to be here because y'all know I don't watch that much Taiwanese BL. [laughs]

Shan 

And I watch it all. 

Ben 

We're going to be talking about the sci-fi BL Anti Reset and we're going to be talking about the Priest adaptation Unknown the series, based on Priest’s novel Da Ge. 

NiNi 

I am unfamiliar with Anti Reset. I did not watch it. 

Ben 

NiNi: it's a Taiwanese BL. I don't like it! [Shan laughs] I didn't watch it. 

NiNi 

I did watch Unknown and I have thoughts about that. 

00:02:11 - Anti Reset and VBL

NiNi 

Maybe Shan, you could dig in here before we let Ben get into the recap on Anti Reset. 

Shan 

Anti Reset is part of a recent series of Taiwanese BLs that came from a company called VBL. Stay By My Side, You Are Mine, VIP Only, and then Anti Reset. This was a connected series, all these stories happened in the same universe. The characters did cameos in each other's shows and they all aired in the same time slot one right after the other, over the last several months. 

I was not particularly impressed with the quality of these shows and I thought that as the series went on, each show got a little bit worse. [laughs] By the time I was in VIP Only I had really lost interest in what these shows were doing. The stories were weak, the production values were low, they weren't really hitting the usual Taiwanese high watermarks for great casting, good couple chemistry, solid intimacy scenes… The things you can normally reliably count on Taiwan for, were not really showing up in these shows. 

So I was, had kind of already lost my faith in this series when Anti Reset started. I think I got two episodes into it and I just decided to just stop watching. It was givin’ me a weird vibe. I was like, “You know what? I don't know what this show is doing and I don't think I wanna find out.” 

That's where I think I should hand it off to Ben to talk more about what the show actually ended up doing.

Ben 

Oh, man. Trying to describe the premise of this show inherently gives it more credit than it deserves. [Shan and Ben laugh] The premise of the show is that Chu Yi Ping is some sort of humanities professor at a local college. His arm gets injured from pulling his shoulder and his uncle, who runs a experimental tech company, decides that to give him some assistance while he's recovering, they're going to send an experimental house assistant android to his house, which appears in the shape of a really hot guy named Ever 9. 

The show wants to go on to be this exploration about how misanthropy presents in people. How do you find humanity in artificial intelligences that are designed to befriend us? It wants to do this exploration of personhood—I don't think it does—and ends up fundamentally becoming a mail-order bride show that doesn't realize it is one. This show thinks it's doing deep analysis of AI personhood and romance, but it's not. It's just presenting things. It is kind of a mess and I ended up really not liking it. 

NiNi 

I'm a big sci-fi girl. I like these kinds of explorations of the human condition. It's what all the best sci-fi is about. So, basically what you're telling me is don't watch the show. [laughs]

Shan 

Ben, I feel like when I was observing discourse about this show, it did seem like it was working for some people, and I'm curious if you have thoughts about what parts of the show maybe did work better than others. 

Ben 

I think that if you found the leads attractive and you enjoyed the chemistry that the leads were going for—ignoring literally any of the context about what was going on around their interactions—you could enjoy that. But I don't think the show does a great job of addressing its own context. 

You've got this android living in your house who is doing your house chores and making your food for you, and otherwise taking care of you. So you basically have purchased a housewife. But then he decides he's in love with the housewife and wants to pursue the concept that the android has a personality and is capable of reciprocating his feelings and such. But they don't do a good job creating this crossover point where Ever 9 cares about Chu Yi Ping because of who Ever 9 is and not because of what Ever 9 was programmed to be. 

The issue, too, with Chu Yi Ping is he's got this fundamental misanthropy that isn't really addressed or challenged. What is it about Ever 9 that allows him to not hate him the way he hates other people? The fact that Ever 9 is programmed to put up with all of his shit all the time? That's kinda weird, particularly because they went for a multi-year separation at the end, and I'm like, he didn't grow from this. He's just a sad little weirdo the whole time. 

Shan 

They did a multi-year separation between… a man and a robot? 

Ben 

They did. 

NiNi 

I was about to say— [all laugh]

Shan

I mean! I’m like, what? But, like—, Did—, How—, But—, I—

NiNi

Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. I have another related question. 

Ben 

Please, go on. [Ben and Shan laugh]

NiNi 

This is not a story about an AI achieving self-awareness or sentience or crossing the human-digital divide in some way. 

Ben 

It wants to be that. It really wants to be a story about Ever 9 exceeding his programming. They very much think there's, like, a Pinocchio thing going on with him. 

Shan 

He's still a robot. 

NiNi 

Even Pinocchio turned into a real boy at the end. 

Shan

Right, this is what I don't understand. 

NiNi 

So what is the point, then? If nothing actually changes about Ever 9. 

Ben 

This is one of the fundamental questions I've been asking about BL lately. [all laugh] And here we are again. 

Shan 

What is the point? [laughs]

NiNi 

This is the thing that people don't get about sci-fi a lot. Sci-fi is more philosophy than science. It's a lot more about humanity and the things that humanity does to each other and how humanity evolves than it is about the cool things that the science can do. And whenever I see sci-fi that does not understand that, you can tell. 

Shan 

I think—and I wonder how you feel about this, Ben—one of the tension points here may be trying to take a narrative like this and turn it into a straightforward romance between a person and an object. When I've seen stories with this conceit done well, the romance is maybe not the primary point, and it's more about, like NiNi is saying, the philosophical questions underpinning it. I think about something like Lars and the Real Girl, which is more about the nature of loneliness and the nature of grief and how a community can come together to support somebody in finding a way to be happy. But it's not about the actual romance between the person and the thing. It feels like maybe what's difficult here is they want to examine those things, but at the same time they just want this to be a standard BL where they're just executing romance tropes. Those things don't go together that well. 

Ben 

I agree. I feel like Chu Yi Ping’s misanthropy and disconnectedness from other people should have been the crux of the storytelling, and they were more focused on making the android say hyung and oppa instead. 

NiNi 

For me, if you're gonna do a robot story like this, maybe you actually put somebody else into the story who the main character then falls in love with. The main character is able to interact with the robot to actually, themselves, become a real boy. But somebody in the story has to become a real boy! [laughs] That's the whole—you know what I mean?

Shan 

There's a kdrama that I really love called I'm Not a Robot. And that is pretty much how they handled that. There's a robot, there's a real girl. And in the end, the romance is with the real girl, not the robot. [laughs] 

It just feels like they tried to do that sort of story, but also somehow make the robot the main person without having them actually achieve personhood, and that just doesn't really work. 

NiNi 

It's either that or take it dystopian. Take it in the opposite direction. But then I guess that's not a BL. 

Shan 

Right. So you can also take it in the real fucked up direction, but yeah, you have to commit and it sounds like they just tried to do it all in some kind of weird blend that didn't come together. 

NiNi 

So, I'm guessing this one's a chop, Ben. 

Ben 

Oh, it's 100% a chop. I think I ended up giving it a 5? This is a show that I do not recommend at all. If you just want to see pretty decently attractive Taiwanese actors kind of moon at each other a little bit and make out a little bit, by all means! Go in and have a great time. But that's what you're getting out of it, at most. It's not good sci-fi, and I don't like it. At all. 

Shan 

I'm feeling happy with my choices. I'm gonna not return and finish this one. I think I'm gonna let it lie. It sounds like it was the right choice to not finish it for me. 

Ben 

What did we get out of the VBL project? My only positive takeaway from it is, I'm really glad that they got some money together to continue making small budget Taiwanese BL. I don't want small budget Taiwanese BL to give up, but also, these were not the best offerings that we've gotten out of that. 

Shan 

They need some better scripts. 

Ben 

We gotta do better. I really did not want to be super harsh about VBL and a bunch of their projects but, they're kind of really frustrating in a lot of ways. Stay By My Side ends abruptly. You Are Mine does not do the boss-employee romance any real justice. VIP Only ended up being kinda boring and wasn't really satisfying in its conclusion. And this one just really did not understand the expectations of sci-fi storytelling.

When we looked at the descriptions of all these shows ahead of time, we were like, there's a lot of ways that they could fuck this up royally, but these would actually be pretty good, or at least interesting and compelling in some ways. But they weren't. There's some sort epilogue episode or some shit they're gonna be releasing?

Shan 

A little special to try to sell merch, I think. 

NiNi 

I mean, you gotta do what you gotta do. 

Shan

Yeaaaaah. 

Ben 

Not impressed, and we are moving on. 

NiNi 

You're not even gonna rate it? 

Ben 

Oh, I gave it a 5. 

NiNi 

5 for Anti Reset from The Conversation. 

Ben 

And the 5 is, the leads were actually pretty solid with each other. 

NiNi 

Wow, that is damning with the faintest of praise. 

[all laugh]

Ben 

It's not good, y’all. 

00:13:13 - Unknown the Series

NiNi

Let's leave that behind and move on to something that all of us actually watched and I think liked a little bit more. Moving on to Unknown the series. 

Ben, give us the rundown, what is Unknown the series about?

Ben

Unknown is a found family narrative that has to deal with the way these relationships change as people grow up. This brother and sister end up deciding to adopt a homeless kid who's in their neighborhood. Wei Qian is like a high schooler trying to take care of his little sister ‘cause their parents are dead, and they decide to also take care of this kid, Xiao Yuan. Xiao Yuan is appreciative of this and is glad to become a brother to this family. But as he grows and matures, he ends up developing deep affection for Wei Qian, and we spend the bulk of the story dealing with Xiao Yuan struggling with his feelings for Wei Qian, and how this impacts the community around them. 

Beyond the three siblings, we have their neighbor San Pang, whose family has opted to never raise the rent on the Wei siblings to make sure that they have a place to stay. Wei Qian spends much of his adolescence when he's not in school working for the local gang: complications ensue as a result of this. 

Shan, further thoughts?

Shan

Really, at its heart, this is a relationship change narrative. So, it's all about how this family decide to take each other as family and then as they grow up, some of the relationships start to shift and change, not only between Wei Qian and Wei Yuan, but also between Wei Li Li and San Pang. Wei Qian really takes his responsibilities as the older brother—but also the default patriarch of this family—very seriously. He is a caretaker, he is the person providing financially for the family. San Pang is his best friend, someone who's known him his whole life, who completely understands his devotion to his siblings and also loves them, as well, as an older brother figure. 

There are some other characters in the mix. Qian and San Pang end up going into business with a third partner, named Lao Xiong. There's also the local gang—the lead gangster is called Le—and then there's Doctor Lin, played by our beloved Sam Lin, who's also in the mix as a side character who comes in and out of the story. 

I don't know, NiNi, if you wanted to add anything about your overall impressions of what the story is tackling, the themes.

NiNi

I came into this one later than you guys did, so I was catching up on kind of a binge. And also the rhythms of Taiwanese BL and Taiwanese drama are a little harder for me, so it takes me a while to get into things emotionally. So I was doing a little bit of an uphill climb? I understood where the story was going and what they were trying to do. I didn't all the way feel it? There were points that I would hit, definitely a point at the end or near the end that I felt it, but going through the pockets of the story as it was happening, I didn't get the depth of feeling about this that I would get about a story. That's not necessarily to do with it being a Taiwanese story, ‘cause there's Taiwanese stories that I have that depth of feeling about. Just this one didn't hit me in the exact same way that I think it hit you guys.

Shan

I felt this story deeply. I was very emotionally connected to the characters, very, very invested in this story and really did love it. I have, unfortunately, some serious critiques [laughs] for the way that the story ended up, but really loved it along the way, was super invested. And part of that might come from my relative comfort with the tropes that were at play.

NiNi

It might be, because I'm an eldest sibling and I understand the feelings of responsibility and wanting to be somebody who takes care of your siblings and an example for them and to be strong for them and all of that. If there is any character that I really glommed onto, it was Wei Qian. But then what that left me with was a disconnect from some of his thought processes and actions later down in the story? There were things that I wanted to understand more that I didn't understand about the way that he was processing certain things. That's my thing. That's not a problem with the story, I think that's my reaction to the story.

Ben

I think in the early parts of the story I was really with everything that it was doing. I got Wei Qian’s whole deal fairly quickly. He's, like, 13 to 15 and his mom is dead. His dad is dead or not in the picture. And he's got a little sister that he has to take care of. And the neighbors are willing to help accommodate this but he's gotta get money some sort of way, so he ends up wrapped up with the local gang. I also got the way they would feel sympathy for another kid who's on the street struggling as well. I totally get them adopting someone else who seems like he's going through some shit the way they are too. 

I got the way Yuan’s thankfulness about being saved from the street and the way Wei Qian was willing to sacrifice himself for Yuan, and I totally get that turning into a kind of devotion that shifts over time, and mingles with his latent queerness. I was able to follow Yuan down that route. And I liked the way the show treated all of those developments really seriously. From Wei Qian having some sort of sexual related trauma and being really resistant to advances from women… And I also got the way that that sort of blew up in their faces when Yuan's feelings became known to them. 

I really enjoyed the early parts of the story. I think Ray Jiang directed this? Ray’s tendency to use longer shots of characters working in the space together worked really well for me here, and the actors had really good timing for me to get a strong sense of the dynamics between their characters. So I was really able to pull a lot of the expected emotional beats out of a lot of little things in this show early on.

00:20:16 Unknown: The Pseudo Incest Trope

Ben

I actually waited until like week six, I think, Shan, was when you told me it was time to start watching? I have deep qualms with the stepbrothers trope. I don't usually connect to it or enjoy it.

NiNi

I don't have an issue with the stepbrothers trope, but this didn't feel like stepbrothers to me. The relationship between Wei Qian and Yuan felt almost paternalistic, and that was, I think, deliberately something that Wei Qian did put that distance between them. I did not see how Wei Qian overcame that, he did it so deliberately and he reinforced it so deliberately over and over throughout the years, and I feel like the turn into romance didn't quite work for me?

Ben

Why do you think the stepbrothers taboo doesn't normally bother you the way it might for other people?

NiNi

It depends on how long they've been raised together. A lot of times when we're getting these stepbrothers trope stories, they're new stepbrothers or they haven't been stepbrothers for very long, or they were close to adults when their parents got together. And so it's… doesn't feel like a sibling relationship to me.

Ben

Shan, you've watched a lot of dramas.

Shan

Sure have.

Ben

What's your read of the stepbrother stuff?

Shan

I wanted to talk about accurate categorization here, because this is not actually a stepbrothers trope. The stepbrothers trope is very popular in yaoi manga, and consequently in BL. But Unknown is more, I think, accurately categorized as a pseudo incest story. And that goes beyond BL. That is actually quite popular [laughs] in Asian dramas more broadly, and also shows up quite a lot in het romance. And it's more about people who are coming together in some kind of family arrangement, and then the point of the trope is that the relationship changes over time and we follow that relationship change. 

There's this impression, I think, that people like it mostly because, “Ooh, it's so titillating. It's so taboo.” For folks who enjoy the pseudo incest trope—and I count myself one of them, I've watched a lot of these kinds of dramas—the appeal of it is that a relationship change narrative is really interesting. It's a lot of deep emotional stuff when you are talking about someone who's really important to you in one specific way, and then trying to transform that relationship to have them be important to you in a different way. That can feel really risky and really dangerous, to put at threat the relationship that you already have for the relationship that you now want. That is not a dynamic that is exclusive to the pseudo incest trope!

NiNi

It feels like an extension of friends to lovers.

Shan

Exactly.

NiNi

A higher risk, higher degree of difficulty friends to lovers.

Shan

Exactly right, NiNi. I also love the friend to lovers trope. I also like enemies to lovers, which is maybe not as deep, but still revolves around that relationship change. I think for a lot of people, that's the appeal. It's a higher stakes version of the friends to lovers trope. 

I think Unknown did a fantastic job with this trope… for the first three quarters of its story. Unfortunately, where it fell down was in the most important part, which is that relationship turn. We followed Yuan through his relationship turn. We saw his feelings for Qian change over time. We saw him try his best to cope with them alone. We saw when he could no longer do that and the feelings poured out of him and that caused a huge rupture. We saw him take time away. We saw his devotion stay strong through a separation and through many years apart. We saw him come back as an adult and decide to pursue the relationship he wanted because he was so certain that he still wanted it. We saw that whole process for Yuan. 

Where the show really dropped the ball is that we didn't see that same deep process happen for Wei Qian. We saw it start, we saw him learn about his younger brother's feelings for him and have an initial response of shock and anger and some revulsion. We saw him push Yuan away. We saw him miss him terribly and regret pushing him away. We saw him start to change the way he saw him when he came back as an adult, and start to get more comfortable with seeking him out as a partner instead of as a younger brother. And then we just saw an abrupt flipped switch, where suddenly he was comfortable not only being in a romance, but in a sexual relationship. And I think that's where they really dropped the ball, is in that transition at the end. And unfortunately, that was the most important part of the story. [laughs] So it's a pretty shitty place to drop the ball, show! 

But, this show did so many of my favorite things—found family, intergenerational family trauma, a serious relationship change narrative. These are like three of my most favorite things in drama. The characters were struggling through poverty, that's another big thing that I love to see depicted well in drama, and the show took it seriously. This show, it felt like, was almost made in a lab to, like, hook me in the heart. And I still have a lot of warm feelings about it and love it, even though it kind of let me down in the end. 

But I'm curious, Ben, to hear you reflect, because I know versions of this trope have caused trouble for you before. I feel like you did better with this than you maybe thought you would, Ben.

Ben

So as someone who has had slurs thrown at him with real intent, I am particularly sensitive to narratives that wanna play with taboo that reflects some of the worst disingenuous presumptions about how queer people behave. I don't always enjoy these sort of narratives where they wanna deal with family members coming of age and developing feelings for each other and then wanting to pursue them. I often struggle with stepsibling relationships in particular because their parents had a romance. I don't usually enjoy the discord that the stepbrothers relationship is introducing to the genuine attempt by their parents to blend their families. 

I don't think this show prickled that because they're more akin to orphans than stepsiblings. I'm less perturbed by orphans who use familial terms to establish closeness and present themselves as a unit to other people, wanting to change that down the road. Also, a smart thing the show did was they used three actors to play Yuan to reflect his growth and change over time, which was a very good choice for this kind of story.

00:27:53 Unknown: San Pang, Li Li, and Family in the Narrative

Shan

The other piece of this trope—the pseudo incest trope—that adds a layer, is that the taboo associated with incest does become part of the story. The external community and their other loved ones become an important part of the decision-making around the relationship change. You're gonna see other people being uncomfortable with the change in the relationship, so it adds this layer of complexity. 

Here, the most important and main stand-in for that, we have San Pang, who has been raised alongside them as their neighbor, who also sees himself as an older brother to Yuan and Li Li, who is the first person to catch on to Yuan’s feelings. He is the one who puts it together and sees the way Yuan’s feelings are changing, and he's the one who tells Qian. In the wake of his coming out to Qian—admitting that he is gay, but not saying who he likes—San Pang is the one who says, “I'm pretty sure you're the person he likes, bro,” and he tries to interfere. He goes to Yuan on his own and he says,”I am seeing this. I want you to understand that it's not something you can pursue. You're going to put so much stress on your brother if you let him find out.” 

There are some great scenes between San Pang and Yuan where they have really important conversations about why it's quote unquote wrong for him to feel this way about Qian, why San Pang feels so uncomfortable with it. He tries to intervene. It doesn't work, and then San Pang’s the one who helps Qian come up with a plan to send Yuan abroad. He was a very important part of that storyline. 

He also is a very important part of the storyline when Yuan comes back as an adult, because he, in those intervening years, has gone through his own journey of his changing feelings for somebody that he also considered a quasi-sibling, and has maybe mellowed out a little bit about what it would mean for the two of them to be together. He sees that the feelings are still there, sees how miserable Qian was when Yuan was gone, and he kind of changes his tune and says, “Maybe I was wrong to try to get in the way of this. Maybe this is the thing that will make you, my best friend in the world who I love, happy, and maybe that's right.” He was such a crucial character in this narrative and I just really loved the way the show used his character as a stand-in for what you would normally see happen with parents in a drama like this.

NiNi

He just wanted to protect everybody. He wants to protect them individually, he wants to protect their family unit. It's very sweet.

Ben

He's like the big cousin who also doesn't know what to do. Wei Qian is stuck with this role, having to care for his sister and the brother that they adopted. That takes a huge amount of personal fortitude to choose to do all of that. San Pang clearly sees this from a young age, and he's always trying to help the best he can. But he's just as young as them and it’s not like he brings any special knowledge to the table. He has these instincts that are grounded in the expected orthodoxy of a family unit, and he's trying to help them replicate that, because he earnestly believes that maybe these things can help them. 

Like, he recognizes that Wei Qian is alone with this huge responsibility he's carrying, and reasonably decides that maybe if he gets a partner who can appreciate that, the mental load on Wei Qian would be better. And as far as he knows, Wei Qian likes girls, so he tries to find women who might be interested in him. That doesn't go well. It's the same thing with always showing up at the clinic when Wei Qian gets the shit beat out of him with the gangster stuff. And even with Yuan, Yuan's feelings come up and he tries to help them, and even when they suggest sending Yuan away, they just wanted him to get some room from Wei Qian to maybe feel something for someone else. Yuan being gay was not their biggest concern. Yuan having feelings for Wei Qian was their primary concern. 

I joked, when he came back sassier and even gayer, that he clearly found his people [laughs] while was in New York. 

Shan

[laughs] Mmhmm. 

Ben

And I ended up really loving San Pang for that. Despite his reticence about Wei Qian, he ends up developing feelings for Li Li, and I think it's because they had those big fights where he was forced to reckon with the nature of these taboos and the orthodoxy they enforce, and whether or not they applied here or not. I feel like San Pang ending up in a relationship with Li Li is intentional by the narrative to draw that line and say, “If this is okay, why not this?”

Shan 

We should talk more about Li Li. One of the things I do credit this show with is caring about the whole family as a unit, and not only about the romance. Her involvement in the story and her relationship with her brothers was just a really important aspect to drive that point home. 

I loved Li Li as a character. She's the little sister that everybody takes care of, including Yuan. She's the one who let him in. When he first followed Wei Qian home, she claimed him as her brother first and brought him into the family. She has a very close but also very different relationship with each of her brothers. And we saw how those bonds held and shifted over time. And when their relationship changed and they decided to be together romantically, Li Li accepted it.

I think she always knew that their relationship was different. What was interesting, I think, and such a good choice, is that she never seemed to feel threatened by that. She was comfortable and secure, knowing that they both loved her. Even though their relationship could maybe sometimes crowd her out. 

Ben 

I really liked that moment in episode 11. We got this little breakdown from her about how nobody cares about Qian. She started to really process, as an adult now, that Wei Qian hid a lot of his suffering from them. 

I actually really like that Li Li got to do teenage rebellion. It says a lot about how effectively Wei Qian did his role as provider that she got to be a bratty teen. 

NiNi 

I feel like as a family story this hits me more than as a romance. Wei Qian’s relationship with both Yuan and Li Li feels parental more than sibling. Li Li and Yuan feel like siblings. 

Shan 

One of the interesting choices that I really appreciate in the story—in the early stages—is that while Wei Qian, I think, was trying to be a parental figure to both of them, Yuan never really accepted that, even when he was younger. And we saw that theme repeat throughout the show of Yuan saying, “You don't have to do it alone. I'm here to help you.” He always, always, always wanted to be a partner to Wei Qian. 

NiNi 

That is true, but this is coming from Yuan’s side. I absolutely see how Yuan made sure, maybe not even consciously, he wanted it to be clear where the boundaries were and the boundary was that, “We are family, we love each other, but you are not my parent, you are not my brother, you are somebody that I am partnered with. We are doing this together in this way.” Yuan always made that distinction. Wei Qian [laughs] is my problem here.

00:35:48 Unknown: The Ending Stumble

Shan 

We should get into where the show stumbled hard, because that's what it all comes down to, right? This big stumble in episode 11. 

NiNi 

Yeah, it just kind of sits over everything and it sits over my entire perception of the story now. I feel like I can't even think of the rest of the story without thinking about how it didn't take me where it needed to go at the end. Yuan comes back to Taiwan and it feels like for Wei Qian, maybe some things have changed, but he's doing a lot to not let this thing happen. And it doesn't feel like a thing that he's fighting against—’cause if it felt like something that he was fighting against, I feel like I could buy it. If it's something that his heart really desires, but his brain is telling him he can't do, like, that works, right? But it doesn't feel like that. 

I don't get where he got shaken. Like, I got the emotional shake. When Yuan gets kidnapped, ‘cause that's a thing that happens, you feel that fear that he had in that moment that he would lose Yuan. I understood why in that moment he would accept that he maybe had these emotions, these feelings that he needed to interrogate for Yuan, and they were churning him up inside, and they got broken out by this thing that happened that shook him. The emotional turn, totally believed. The turn where that goes romantic and sexual, that's the part that—it didn't carry me there. 

Shan 

I do agree with that last bit of what you said. I don't see it the same way as you in terms of not seeing the arc of his feelings starting to change. I think that was very clearly the arc of episodes 7 through 10 for Qian. During their separation, we saw how not functional, frankly, he was without Yuan around. He survived, he got through every day, but he was deeply unhappy. Everybody in his life could see it. He was regretful, he was missing him all the time. And punishing himself and withholding himself from talking to Yuan.

When Yuan came back, he started to interact with him differently. We saw the way that his physical awareness of him was different. We saw him start to seek him out more. We did see him start letting him in on some adult problem solving like he wouldn't have before. He still had his walls up, of course, he was still trying to consciously deny that he was willing to change their relationship in that way. But I do think the show took us through and showed us some very clear moments where his feelings were starting to shift and he was still fighting it. And then, of course, the kidnapping incident really shook him up. 

I think where the failure for me happened was in the moment where this suddenly turned into a sexual desire that we hadn't seen build, at all. And so that is the missing piece for me. They needed a couple more beats in the story there, between him coming to this emotional realization of his desire to keep Yuan next to him forever, and for that to then build into a sexual attraction that he was comfortable acting on. And I think that latter part is where they really dropped the ball. They have him literally say, “I'm not ready yet. I haven't figured out what I'm comfortable with yet.” And then like, literally two minutes later, he's like, “Fuck it, never mind.” And they're just going to town on each other. 

That didn't work for me at all. It was a very strange choice. It was a mistake. The show just really fumbled, and it sucks because they fumbled at the most important part of the story after building it so beautifully for ten weeks to just drop the ball that hard. It's a little bit baffling to me? 

Ben 

Episode 10 ends at the huge emotional turn for Wei Qian. And it was really frustrating for the show to conflate the emotional turn and the sexual turn and try and follow that immediately with the sex in the next episode. That was not the right choice. If the show had done the emotional turn and then spent at least half the episode dealing with this building sexual tension, that would have been interesting. 

The show was obsessed with staying on Yuan's perspective the whole time. It would have been totally fine if Yuan was crackling with sexual energy at the knowledge that Wei Qian had finally hit the emotional turn. But instead they really wanted to have reward sex and then focus on this stupid health scare plot. The problem is, the sex scene isn't good because there's no arc to it. Yuan has been ready to fuck this man for ten years and Wei Qian hasn't been ready to fuck anyone for, like, 15 years. 

They brought up this whole notion that part of Wei Qian's closed-off nature about sex is because his mom possibly abused him. And I just really did not enjoy the show rushing into this sudden sexual comfortability with Wei Qian after showing us that he did not have a good relationship with sex, and I feel like that needed to be resolved before those two were going to be able to have that sort of moment. As a result, the sex scene doesn't create much of an emotional arc, and the show knows this too, because they fucking fill it with stupid Yuan flashbacks. This should be about the change in Wei Qian, not the culmination of Yuan's feelings. 

Wei Qian's reticence about sex is not handled by the story, whether it be discovering queerness in himself or processing the sexual trauma from his mom or getting over whatever blocks about the kid you see as your brother wants to be with you. That part of it was missing when they had set up for it with the end of episode 10, where Wei Qian let down whatever big emotional barrier was between, “I need to protect Yuan,” versus, “I don't wanna be without Yuan.” They were prepped for it, totally, to go into that next area. And then they just didn't, and decided to make it about Wei Qian having a blood clot. 

NiNi 

All the pieces were actually there, they're just in the wrong order. There's a scene after the fact where they're doing this dating SIM game or whatever at work and Wei Qian is having these flashbacks to the sex scene. Why did they not let him have that moment as a fantasy moment before—

Shan 

Yes! 

NiNi

—rather than a flashback moment after? 

Ben 

That's what I also thought at the time. But you know how angry I get on this podcast [Ben and Shan laugh] about having to mentally rejigger the show [NiNi laughs] to make it fucking work. I will not!

Shan 

Besties! That's what they do in the book! That is exactly what they do in the book! [laughs]

Ben 

That's so fuckin’ aggravating. [laughs] I’m so fucking mad! 

Shan 

It’s so aggravating! All the things we're saying they should have done, they fucking did in the book! And I don't [claps hands together] know why the show didn't do it. I'm so mad! 

Ben 

She clappin’, yo, she mad. 

[all laugh]

00:43:32 Unknown: Adapting the Da Ge Novel

Shan 

We haven't talked too much yet about the novel, but I do wanna talk a little bit about some of the adaptation choices that were made here. This show is an adaptation of the novel Da Ge by Priest, who is a very well known danmei author. Other live action adaptations of her books include Word of Honor, Guardian, Justice in the Dark... several others, a lot of them have now been shelved or didn't get to finish airing because of the ban in China. So, it was extremely exciting for fans of her works to see a Taiwanese production take up an adaptation of one of her books, because we know that we're not gonna get good adaptations of danmei anymore out of China, because they are banning queer content and censoring it all to hell—even more than other countries. 

They made a lot of really smart adaptation choices in the way that they structured the show. The book is a lot more complex, in the way that most Priest novels are. There's a lot more characters, the plots are far more intricate, there's a lot more going on. There's an additional member of the family in the book. There's another best friend in the building. There are, like, three different gangs [laughs] instead of one. There's this whole corporate real estate plot that's tied to Wei Qian's work. It's a lot more complex. 

The show did, I think, a fantastic job of making choices to streamline the story, to make it simple enough to fit into a 12 episode arc while still retaining the core themes and the core relationships. And it also did some really great work around the cultural pieces. Mainland China has a lot more deep homophobia, fatphobia, some real weirdness around the way, in media, that sex and gay sex in particular get discussed, and this show really smoothed all of that out. 

Where they really blew it on the adaptation is at this end arc. You see all these aspects of Wei Qian's emotional journey that we are lamenting the show missed. I don't really understand why the show decided to ignore that material in favor of doing what it did instead. A lot of the stuff in the final arc was not in the book at all. If you are someone who loved this story and is disappointed in the ending, I just can't recommend highly enough that you read that book. 

Ben 

That's the theme of this episode. [laughs] If you enjoyed these shows, go do something else. 

Shan 

[laughs] Do something else! No, but do watch Unknown. I do love this show. I don't wanna say that you shouldn’t watch it, but you should go read the book too, ‘cause it'll fill in some pieces that we're missing here.

00:46:15 Unknown: Final Thoughts and Ratings

Ben 

I totally get NiNi maybe not being super connected to what was goin’ on, and if they had not fucked up episode 11, it just would have been an interesting conversation about, where does this gap form? But now we're bogged down in the fact that it's easy to point to the lack of payoff. I watched episode 12 this morning before we're recording this session. And I was like, “Okay, I guess this is fine.” [Shan laugh] This is meant to feel like, almost, epilogue. And I enjoyed the big family hand hold. But I really feel like they really failed at the final steps of the “Yuan and Wei Qian are now a couple” turn, which is really annoying because there were so many things that it did great. 

In the very final episode, there's this really great sequence when we learn that Li Li is pregnant and they have the reaction in the hallway and everybody's coming out of different doors that you don't expect. 

Shan 

That is the funniest scene. 

Ben 

Every time Wei Qian wanted to kill San Pang? [Shan laughs] Some of the best scenes in this show. Like, fucking Yuan sitting on the couch eatin’ his tomatoes, he was enjoying the chaos. We got this other woman who might be with Wei Qian, “I can take care of my brother.”

[Ben and Shan laugh] 

Shan 

He's like, “Don't you worry about it.” I did love those moments of Yuan being like, “Oh, I'm not the family problem now, ha!” [laughs] He's just like sitting back and enjoying it. 

Even at the end, I was frustrated with the last two episodes, but I still had a lot of affection for these characters and this family. This isn't an ending that completely ruined the show, for me. 

Ben 

Shan has a bat she holds called coulda been a 10 that she bashes sh— 

Shan

Yes! [laughs] 

Ben

—bashes shows with.

Shan 

Goddammit! One of the pieces of my frustration here is that this was on track to possibly be the best Taiwanese BL ever made. 

NiNi

Okay, so ratings. Shan, let's have you go first. What do you rate Unknown?

Shan

I gave it a 9. I had to take out my coulda been a 10 bat. 

I think that the narrative and the character work was so strong through the first 10 episodes that I can't take it lower than that. It's sticking with me. It's been a while since I finished the show, and I still think about it every single day. I think about these characters all the time, and that's not gonna go away just because the last couple episodes were a little bit disappointing for me.

NiNi

Ben, how about you?

Ben

Because I am in the business of recommending things—it's my whole shtick—this is an 8.5. It sits between “BL fans should watch this” and “People who like romance should watch this,” for me. I can't give it a 9 because I feel really strongly about the episode 11/12 caveats. But I don't wanna pretend that I didn't think that this cast did a really great job capturing the nuances of their dynamics. And even if they're let down a little bit by some of the direction and writing choices towards the end, I think that the family portion of this is so good, genuinely. So I do think this show is worth watching for people who enjoy the kinds of narratives the show wants to play with. We just need to understand that it stumbles at the end. 

NiNi?

NiNi

I'm having a hard time with this one because in my head this isn't a BL. If I had to put it into a category in my head, it would get slotted near to something like a Moonlight Chicken or 180 D. But it doesn't have the queer bona fides that either of those have. It feels like a family drama that had a romance in it that happened to be this kid falling in love with somebody who is taking care of him. But the idea of it being a central romance, I just didn't buy. So it was a difficult one for me to rate in terms of how I felt about it as a romance. 

In the end, I ended up at an 8 for the show. I think as a family drama, it's excellent. As a family drama, I would probably give it a 9.5 and as a romance, I would probably give it a 7, and so I wind up somewhere in the middle, which for me is an 8. I feel like it's a solid 8 show.

Ben

It's an 8.5 from The Conversation, recommended with specific reservations!

NiNi

You gotta get that .5 in. It's fine.

Shan

We gotta get it in. We gotta—

Ben

That's just how math works!

Shan

—gotta get it in.

NiNi

I know, I'm allowing you to have math. It was a good show.

Ben

It could have been an excellent show, but hmph!

Shan

So close to being one of my all time favorite dramas. It's fine, I'm just gonna go cry about it.

Ben

You were mad about it, because Shan wasn't even buggin’ me on a Saturday, like, “Go watch this show, Ben. Go watch it right now. Wake up, gay boy! Go watch the show so I can talk.”

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

Shan

Ben knew I didn't like the final episodes ‘cause I was not asking him if he watched them yet. [laugh] I was like, I don't wanna talk about it!

00:51:53 - Whither Taiwanese BL?

NiNi 

I want us to talk a little bit about where Taiwanese BL is and what's been happening with it lately and whether it is making the leap in the same ways that other countries appear to be making the leap lately. Whatever that leap is for them. 

I feel in some ways like Taiwanese BL has been a bit stagnant. 

Ben 

Taiwan is a super small country and… politically, they have been a little distracted for a few years! They're not in a position to do a ton more with BL right now. I don't think that we're gonna see a huge sudden surge from Taiwan. The best thing about Unknown is that Taiwan is not out of the game altogether, ‘cause I was real worried! The HIStory franchise is in ruins, and we hadn't really seen something of this production caliber in a while. 

Shan 

I'm with you, Ben. Honestly, when Unknown started airing, I was like, “Oh, thank God, Taiwan can still do it.” I have always been a fan of Taiwanese BLs, which might feel a little bit discordant because [laughs] I am someone who cares a lot about writing and storytelling and story is usually, honestly, the weakest part of Taiwanese BL. They usually don't have good writing. But, what I've always connected to in Taiwanese BLs is, I feel like they have a really good handle on relationship dynamics. They're really good at building characters that connect well with each other emotionally, physically—they've always done really good physical intimacy work in their shows, they usually cast really well for chemistry—and so usually in Taiwanese BLs, it's the characters and the character dynamics that hook me, more than the story. 

So I was really excited to see the high quality Taiwanese production that I knew had a good story underpinning it. I hope to see more. I personally had a great time with Kiseki: Dear To Me, but it is not exactly high art. [laughs] And this run of VBL shows was so bad that I was really losing faith. I had made a commitment that I was going to at least try watching every single Taiwanese BL that comes out. I'm still sticking with that, but I was starting to flag a little bit because some of these shows were so bad. 

So I was so thrilled to see that they still were doing productions of this caliber. And Unknown has been quite successful and got them a lot of positive attention, and so I'm hopeful that they'll be able to continue putting together productions like this, drawing actors of the caliber that they got for this show. I'm more hopeful because this show happened than I was certainly at the end of the year. 

Ben 

I will say the way that the Taiwanese actors talk about the work remains one of my favorite things. I be deep in these cast interviews, seein’ what they have to say about this work, and these Taiwanese boys have really nuanced and complex feelings about the work they're doing playing queer characters. I feel the respect and sometimes the duty they feel to get it right in the way they talk about their characters and the work they're doing. That's why I remain very friendly to… even [laughs] some of the jankiest Taiwanese BLs. These boys take playing queerness seriously. It's really warming for me to know that these guys understand that they're portraying queer people and that queer people will be affected by their portrayals. 

NiNi 

I think I just don't have the connection to Taiwanese drama. I'm coming at this from kdrama, through jdrama, through Thai drama. Taiwan’s the last place that I landed, and I think that I just haven't made the leap yet in terms of style and rhythms and all those other things. Mostly because I don't get to see a lot of it, there is not much. And I think that that definitely impacts how I feel about Taiwanese drama and Taiwanese BL. There are some I love—you know, I'm a staunch lover of HIStory 2: Right or Wrong. You know how I feel about Make Our Days Count. You know how I feel about We Best Love. But none of those, except maybe Right or Wrong, as Shan pointed out, has really stellar writing. 

Ben 

Why would you mention Make Our Days Count? I'm so mad all of a sudden! [laughs]

Shan 

No! Don't go there, Ben. Earmuffs!

NiNi 

We're never gonna get out of a Taiwanese BL conversation without it coming up. It just [laughs] isn’t gonna happen. 

Ben 

[volume raising] Wanna talk about endings for Taiwanese—

Shan

No!

Ben

—BLs?! [laughs]

Shan 

No, we do not! Stop. Pause. NiNi, continue your point. 

NiNi 

What have I done? [laughs] 

Yeah, I agree with Shan that the writing isn't great, and that's maybe one of the reasons that I haven't latched on to Taiwanese BL in the way that I have to others, because I am also a writing person. I can get behind a story for other reasons, and I have. I've gotten behind stories that were not written well because there was some other element of them that really grabbed me, and that's what has happened to me in the Taiwanese BLs that I have liked. But just generally, I don't gravitate in this direction, and there hasn't really been anything yet that makes me wanna gravitate more in this direction?

I recognise the strength of character development. I recognise the fantastic acting in a lotta instances, some of these guys are amazing actors. I just, it hasn't moved me in the kind of ways that I've been moved from other things. And it kinda makes me sad in some ways. I'm still looking for that Taiwanese BL that's gonna grab me by the throat. I haven't found that one yet. I'll keep looking. 

Shan 

It's hard, too, ‘cause like Ben said, it's such a small industry. We don't get that many Taiwanese BLs and we certainly don't get that many of quality. But, I've always really loved the approach to BL that Taiwan brings. 

Ben 

I really feel like when they make BL, somebody in the room is asking how gay people might feel about some of the choices they're making. 

Shan 

I'm gonna keep showing up for Taiwanese BL. I'm gonna keep watching them. I really hope that we get to see more productions of this caliber. I hope that we get to see them working from strong source material, so that the storytelling can really live up to what the casts are bringing. I'm excited to see what comes out next. 

NiNi 

Ray Jiang can stay, though, I like his directorial style. He keeps doing stuff and he hits on something that really pops? I feel like that's the one that's gonna grab me. If I wasn't terrified of what Lin Pei Yu was capable of after Kiseki. If I could get Lin Pei Yu at her best plus Ray Jiang at his best, with basically any of the actors I've ever seen in Taiwanese BL, maybe we'll get something that will grab me by the throat. 

Anyway, that is going to wrap us up on… what's the name of this episode? 

Shan 

Have we decided yet? Hmm. 

Ben 

The State of Taiwan, Taiwanese BL episode, whatever. 

NiNi 

Okay. That is going to wrap us up on our Taiwan episode. We out!

Thank you for being here, Shan. Say bye to the people. 

Shan 

Thank you for having me. Bye, people! 

NiNi 

Say bye to the people, Ben. 

Ben 

Peace.

[blpalace]

BL Readers/ Writers

Feel free to wax philosophical and fanatical in a post, tags, or the comments! Have you written a BL in these settings? Have you read one you can't forget? Let's hear about it!

[syrena-del-mar]

People forget that actors don't owe anybody the knowledge of their sexuality. Whether that be lesbian, gay, bisexual, pansexual, demisexual, asexual, or any other sexuality. That includes their dating history or who they're currently dating. Actors only owe the public one thing: that they do their job and that they do it well.

If that job consists of partaking in CP/ship culture, consume their media knowing that what they show you in public is curated for you as a fan. If they're dating someone who is not their partner, they're not cheating you; they're not making a mockery out of you or of queer relationships. With ship work, they're simply doing their job how their culture expects them to.

Ship work is not queerbaiting. Living, breathing humans do not queerbait. Queerbaiting comes from a marketing tactic for fictional entertainment work to ensure that they don't alienate their straight audience while also ensuring queer interest. You're consuming BLs and GLs, where the shows deliver in the promised relationships. If you're consuming BL/GL, you should know that fanservice generally follows.

Fanservice works because it's understood to be common practice. It's acting, an extension of whatever series they're promoting. Also, realize that fans often find themselves so invested in a couple that a hug or even a tiny brush of their hands will be considered 'evidence' of a relationship. Friends can flirt, 'lovingly' touch each other, and mess around without it meaning anything.

That's still not queerbaiting.

Because of how advanced technology has become, we have so much access to these actors/actresses. Accessibility does not equal entitlement to know how they identify. Claiming an individual is 'queerbaiting' only causes harm in the long term because you might unknowingly force someone to come out of the closet before they were ever ready to be. This only pushes media/reporters to continuously ask for information that isn't anyone's business to drum up engagement, potentially exploiting them for clicks. There's no need to inquire about their personal life, relationships, or sexuality.

But what if they take cryptic 'couple' photos with someone other than their work partner? Stop searching. Take their social media posts at face value. Stop trying to come up with some 'gotcha' moment, whether that be actually dating their work partner or some other individual. It's their personal life (curated, but still their life); you're overstepping, and if what you find out upsets you, then it's time to pull away.

It's really that simple.

Just because you buy into the fantasy a little too much and invest yourself in the pseudo-relationship does not mean the actors are queerbaiters. At the end of the day, fanservice is just that—a service provided for the fans. In other words, it's a job. Finding out that an actor/actress is dating someone of the opposite sex does not make them queerbaiters. (Also, realize that dating someone of the opposite sex does not signify that they're straight; whether they are or not, it's none of your business.)

If an actor/actress's personal relationships make you so mentally unwell because they're not with the onscreen partner, it just means you've genuinely detached yourself from reality. I mean this sincerely, if you're at this point, find help. Try to learn and understand more about why you're putting so much of yourself into a parasocial relationship. It's unhealthy for you to get so worked up that you feel sick because two coworkers aren't together.

If you find out that you're not a fan of CP work because you feel lied to or cheated, just don't consume it. Simply watch the show, look up their artist profile to see what other works they've been in, and log off. Don't follow them on social media, don't look up their fan meets, or watch video compilations that fans have made for shipping.

You're the master curator of your online consumption.

Curate it.

[respectthepetty]

ALERT ALERT!!! TAIWAN REQUEST ASK INCOMING!!!

Please can you recommend to me your top 5 Taiwan BLs? I saw you posting about a few and wanted to know when you would recommend please?! is it always enemies to lovers?

Thank you in advance colour genius!

WHY ARE THESE ASKS ONLY GETTING HARDER?! First, y'all wanted my Top GMMTV actors, then it was Top GMMTV pairs, and now you are coming for my heart and soul with my

Top Five Taiwanese BLs!

That's like making me decide who is my favorite Backstreet Boy (it's Kevin) or telling me to choose my favorite child. I don't have kids, but I feel this is very similar. I love all of them equally for different reasons. Taiwanese BLs are my favorites because they have the best parents, high heat, some (but not all) enemies-to-lovers, and serve domestic bliss, so forcing me to pick between them is painful.

But I'll do it!

However, I'm gonna finesse my way into having more than five, yet still only technically giving you five.

The Ones That Couldn't Be Considered:

First, I will not count HIStory 4: Close to You in this list because it is my favorite BL. Period. It is not fair to these other BLs that they can't be a strategic hot ass mess with the gusto that my beloved HIS 4 had.

Next, Oh No! Here Comes Trouble isn't a BL, so I can't count it, but it was queer to me. I watched it for Your Name Engraved Herein's Tseng Ching-hua, but when Guang Yan said "This comic is not only about my high school life, but also about my heart," their love became canon for me, and I knew I wasn't moving past this show. When I write my book If You Just Don't Wanna Admit It's Queer, That's On You, the masses will see exactly what was there all along.

I can't include Red Balloon because, quite simply, I don't remember it well enough since I watched it when it was released in 2017, but I still feel it in my heart, you know? Edward Chen, the opposite lead in Your Name Engraved Herein, and Jason Tauh of HIStory 5: Love in the Future were the younger leads, so if Gagaoolala brings it back, I'll watch it again to see how they have both evolved.

I can't put my finger on why I won't include DNA Says I Love You, but I think it's because I don't classify it as a BL, yet I don't know why I don't classify it as a BL because it is a BL. It is! But . . . I don't know bruv. Either way, it's slow but good!

See You After Quarantine?'s entire runtime is a little over an hour. That's one episode of a Thai BL! It's cute, quick, and creative, but I cannot use up a spot on an eighty-minute series even though it was good. I'm sorry boys, I'll see you after my Hot Tops!

The Ones That Made the List:

#5 - About Youth

I hate singing, but the songs (and singing) in this series were GOOD, so much so that I still listen to the theme song. The characters (except Ye Guang's shitty parents) were also good, but Ray was my favorite. It was just serious enough to not seem trivial but was still light and enjoyable, and Xu Qi Zhang's mom and pink Converse deserve some appreciation.

#4 - Be Loved in House: I Do

That argument in the street that spilled over into the office the next day is one of my top five fights! In case you haven't watched it, Real got upset because he believed everyone was hiding a relationship from him, so Shi Lei called him out on his hypocrisy since they were basically in a relationship yet hiding it. Real misunderstood, but that made Shi Lei more upset which lead to him screaming at Real in the office asking if he even thought about them as a couple. Then Shi Lei's mother and that coming out scene! AND THE FLOOR SCENE! So many amazing scenes. So little space.

#3 - We Best Love

Although I prefer No. 1 For You, it goes hand-in-hand with Fighting Mr. 2nd, so I'm counting them as one for this list. The second part gave us the office slap heard around the world, and that superb drunken confession, but the first portion really delivered a cohesive story about pseudo enemies-to-lovers that had satisfying pacing and great side characters. The show also had color coding, so if it weren't for the promise of a third season that has yet to be delivered, that time jump and the reasoning for the separation, it would have been No. 1 For Me.

#2 - My Tooth, Your Love

As soon as Jin Xun An said he knew a good therapist, it was over for these other BLs. Jin Xun An is such an adult and does not have time for tomfoolery, which pushed Bai Lang to grow. A majority of BLs openly express that one of the leads is a mess from trauma, yet gives the message that the other person should and will love them regardless. Not this BL! Jin Xun An said he would love Bai Lang through it, but he didn't allow Bai Lang to treat him like poo or make excuses for his behavior while kindly pushing Bai Lang to treat himself as seriously and as gently as Jin Xun An did. Oh, and the side couple was intriguing as well.

#1 - HIStory 3: Trapped & HIStory ?: Freed

You notice how all the other couples on this list are right next to each other, probably holding each other likely in bed? NOT THESE TWO! Mis tóxicos fell in love in the woods while handcuffed to each other after running away from their kidnappers while Kinn was still dating Tawan and Porsche was sexing up customers behind the bar (KinnPorsche). Mis tóxicos were not trusting each other, yet willing to fuck while Dr. Bun was still in the big city and Tan wasn't even on his radar (Manner of Death). I'm not making a comparison; I'm making a statement that this show changed me and what I now crave from other shows. If a man isn't willing to kill for his guy AND possibly kill his guy too, then is it really love? I have demanded for FOUR YEARS that my boy Tang Yi be released, and one of these days, Taiwan will deliver us what we all deserve -

HIStory 15: Freed WHEN?

[demonprincesuteishi]

The Zettai BL people are posting lots of promo and behind-the-scenes stuff on instagram now that season 3 is just around the corner. Which means…Sekoguchi Ryo in the full high school getup as Hatano!

Hell yes!

There are also some photos of Inukai Atsuhiro and Ito Asahi in some bonkers fringed shirts with perm-ish hairdos that seem like they must be from the new opening credits sequence.

There has always been a fifth spot in the opening credits in addition to Inukai, Ito, Yutaro, and Shiono Akihisa. In season 1 it was filled, somewhat randomly, by the guy whose character comes to the same goukon at a karaoke place as Mob. In season 2 it was filled by Izuka Kenta, who doesn’t seem to be around in season 3. You get where this is going. Sekoguchi Ryo ought to be the fifth guy in the opening number. I mean, it would make the most sense. So maybe we’ll be seeing Sekoguchi in a fringey shirt and a pseudo-perm? Time will tell.

[hughungrybear]

Somebody over Reddit is complaining about the "lack of chemistry" between Top and Mew, and feeling that whole series falls flat as a romantic love story — which goes to show that some "fans" need to get out and touch grass. Or take time to watch P'Jojo's entire filmography (I highly recommend 3 Will Be Free and Gay Ok Bangkok).

Because Only Friends is not a BL romance series. It is a messed up story of young queers navigating their way through life and pseudo-friendships/relationships. The whole point of the series is to show the toxic and superficial relationships between the characters.

If they are looking for a fairy-tale (queer) love story, Only Friends is definitely NOT it. 😑

[thebroccolination]

Krist's Top Five from His Own Series

So Krist did an event in Fukuoka, and a fan asked him to rank his favorite series of the five she chose.

Krist's ranking was:

SOTUS the Series

Be My Favorite

I'm Tee, Me Too

One Night Steal

Who Are You

SOTUS doesn't surprise me at all. I think that'll always be his number one no matter how many series he's in. That's the series that launched him, the series that gave him his life as half of KristSingto, that made him a pillar of the BL industry. He's so proud of it, and he always brings it up when people ask for his recommendations. :')

And Be My Favorite in second makes sense, too. He loves working with Waa, and he said more than once that no matter how BMF did, he already felt he'd won the best thing of all by meeting Gawin properly and having him in his life. He also loved the story, and I think Kawi was his most challenging character to get behind. I know Arthit and Kawi have the Grumpy Wet Kitten thing in common, but when you look at the roles Krist played in non-BL series before BMF, he was usually given quite serious characters, so pivoting into a selfish, immature character like Kawi probably swung him, craftwise.

So his top three series are BL, BL, and the pseudo-BL for which he just hung out with his family of idiot older brothers for a few months. (GMM really dropped the ball on ITMT, I think. Why would you assemble PeBaCa just to toe the line between BL and gen? Just go for it and gay it the fuck up ffs.)

Also he's growing his hair out:

And another fan asked him, "Will I be able to watch your new drama series this year?" with options of "Yes!", "No", and "Not decided yet…"

Krist didn't check any of them. He just wrote "S…"

In conclusion, if you're going to cancel Krist, at least do it for a serious reason that holds water under close examination:

Man's a tease.

Personally, I think he has a series with Singto because if he doesn't after all the teasing he's done in that direction, he's going to be slaughtered by a tidal wave of Peraya. (Please please please. If they make SOTUS 3: The Wedding, I will go supernova. Do it, GMMTV, think of all the merch you'd sell. Think of the money, you capitalist elbows.)

[xxalexislost19xx]

Kobra Kid headcannon that has been floating around in my brain for a bit:

So we all know that out of the Fab 4 Jet Star, the default caregiver of the group. He breaks up arguments/ fights, keeps everyone nourished and functioning, and basically just keeps his three comrads from dying at the hand of their own stupidity. It is also thought that Star is the medic of the group, but he is not and would probably be the worst out of the four. It is rather Kobra Kid who is responsible for the patching up and healing aspect of their operation, and this is for multiple reasons. Firstly, everyone else would be absolutely horrible at the job. Star has an innate fear and dislike of seeing other people's blood. His caring nature makes it really difficult for him to see others hurting. He can usually cope when it comes to pseudo-battles with BL, but once the adrenaline of the fight is worn off, if he sees blood, he will faint. Of course, poison and Goul can barely be considered as they are typically the ones with the worst and most frequent injuries. That leaves Kid to mend his haphazard companions. Secondly, he is just REALLY fucking good at it. His quiet nature means that he is intuitive af and can tell exactly where and how someone is hurt before they can even tell him, and it doesn't matter how good someone is at hiding pain, he can smell it from a mile away. His hands are ridiculously steady, and his bedside manner is 100000% en pointe. Despite his signature awkwardness, when it comes to doctoring people, he can start a conversation about anything and get you invested enough that you forget you're in pain. He's practically a legend throughout the zones, and Killjoys from all over will come specifically to see him.