#post-Ragnarok but IW didn't happen

[bedlamsbard]

I totally understand your rage quitting now, although it's exactly the opposite for me! I was *very* into the Asgardian storyline in MCU and I hated Ragnarok with a passion - and the fandom sure made certain I knew everybody who didn't like the movie was an Idiot. Then IW and EG happened and killed all my joy for the MCU. I kinda sorta look at it without flinching nowadays, but it took somewhere around 5 years...

I think I know more people who went MCU --> Star Wars than the other way around! Weird couple of years for both fandoms. I'm a little bit of a weird outlier because I got back into Marvel well after Endgame, but a lot of what people criticize about the MCU is what I find interesting (the puzzle piece aspect). I am well aware that if I'd been consistently in Marvel since 2014 (which is when I drifted off) I'd probably have had the same rage reaction as like...everyone else I know.

I guess it's been a minute and my SW history isn't common knowledge to people who weren't around here between 2013-2021, so the lingering fury is probably confusing to people who only know me from the MCU. I was big into Star Wars from 2013-2021, from 2013-2015 on the PT/TCW side, then from 2014-2021 on the Rebels side (there's crossover), though I was also familiar with...everything. I have forgotten more about Star Wars than your average SW fan has ever known. (I was also in and out from 2007-2013, which is when some of my earlier fic like Oxygen and Rust dates from, but this is a period of time when my big fandom was actually Narnia) I'm quote-unquote "known" for Wake the Storm and Queen's Gambit in the PT/TCW, which have very consistently garnered negative responses since Wake started in 2013, and On the Edge of the Devil's Backbone in Rebels; I also used to do liveblogs of TCW and Rebels and the comics, for a while, so some of those posts are still floating around. I had a very, very bad breakup with a close fandom friend in 2016. I bounced off the ST, had an extremely negative reaction to Rebels S4 (to this day I have refused to do a full reaction post because I hated it so much I can't think about it coherently, and there were years where I couldn't think about it without spiraling), was okay with Resistance, R1, and Solo, hated Mando, hated TCW S7, hated the comics, hated the High Republic, and was still grimly hanging onto the fandom in utter misery in 2021 when the combination of hating TBB's sheer mediocrity (and the way they retconned Rebels) and the first episode of Loki hitting all of my favorite tropes like a fucking train finally knocked me out of Star Wars, to the extreme relief of everyone who knew me.

to this day I have fannish friends (who I met through Star Wars!) ready to stage an intervention if I ever seem even vaguely interested in getting back into Star Wars. I am the only person I know who looked at the Marvel fandom post-Endgame (and the Loki subfandom at any point in time, but especially while the show was airing) and went "this seems like a nice soothing place to immigrate to!" and honestly it is, people aren't as crazy anymore as they were around CW and Endgame. (Except in the Loki subfandom, which has made even me go "hmm. that's a bit much," but then I remember the egg genocide and you guys are fine, actually.)

very amusingly I actually speed-ran the Rebels experience with the Loki show -- really liked the first half, really disliked the second half -- but by that point I'd already gotten back into the rest of the MCU. I hadn't had a dramatic MCU breakup at all; I'd kept up with the films from 2008-2014 (CATWS was the last one I saw in order), but I just hadn't gotten around to seeing more than three odd ones out between 2014 and 2021 (Ragnarok, Captain Marvel, Ant-Man and the Wasp, and then I saw WandaVision early in 2021). I fandom osmosed some weird stuff that turned out not to be true.

anyway for those that don't know, that's the short version of my sordid Star Wars history! also sorry, you didn't actually, uh, ask for this.

[braincoins]

Thor and Loki go to Cheesecake Factory

((I’m going to make a little tweak to this because I haven’t been to Cheesecake Factory very often. My most recent visit was last year, and the visit before that... was many years prior. Also, I don’t like cheesecake? So, basically, I don’t know enough about this restaurant (or its signature food) to write it. So I chose another popular restaurant chain... and I feel I might owe you an apology for the one I chose, Pix. >_>))

“It’s not much of a garden, despite the bad paintings of fruit,” Loki muttered, eyeing the small bar area and the bland decor.

His brother was signing autographs, and Loki sighed heavily and wondered if he’d be allowed to get a glass of wine at the bar or if they’d scream at the mere sight of him. But, so far, no one seemed to be paying him any attention, so distracted were they by Thor’s mere presence. Some things never change. He walked over to the bar. 

The woman behind the bar smiled politely at him. “Yes, sir, what ca-...?”

“Something old, red, and dry.”

She paused and looked at him. “Well, we have a lot of those. But first I’m going to need to see ID.”

He blinked at her. “Eye Dee?”

“Identification. We have to card anyone who looks like they’re under 40, so...”

“You require me to identify myself before you will serve me?” He tossed his hair back. “And if I were to say ‘Loki of Asgard’?” He’d actually take some frightened screaming at this point, if for no other reason than that it meant he’d been recognized... even if that recognition wasn’t all that good a thing anymore.

The bartender chuckled. “Yeah, okay, great, Mr. Asgard, but I still need to see your ID.”

His brow furrowed. “I don’t think I understa-...”

“Brother, there you are!” Thor’s hand fell to his shoulder. “Come, they’re showing us to our table.”

“OH, you’re with Thor?” The bartender’s smile brightened.

“Yes. Does that mean I can get a drink?”

“Not without ID, no, but that’s SUPER cool.”

He sighed. “Okay,” he said to his brother, “let’s get to our table.”

They were shown to a table at the back and assured they’d have privacy and a personal server. 

“Can we have wine with our meals?” Loki asked the Midgardian.

“Of course! You’re over 21, right?”

He regarded the human man and replied dryly, “A bit, yes.”

“Do you have beer?” Thor asked.

“The drinks list is right there,” the man said, nodding at a small book, “along with appetizers and desserts. Your server will be with you momentarily.”

Thor reached for the book, but Loki snatched it before he had a chance. “I’ve been trying to order a drink longer than you have.”

“Midgard does have some strange rules,” Thor agreed. “But see, no one’s even blinked an eye at you so far. It’s not that bad.”

“This isn’t New York.”

“Exactly. That’s why we’re here. Well, that and the endless breadsticks.”

Loki looked up from the list of wines. “Endless?”

Thor grinned and grabbed the book away from him. “So they claim.”

“I get the feeling we’re going to put that to the test.”

And they did. They very much did. Breadsticks, soup, and salad were all supposed to be endless, and they each ordered some pasta to go with it. Loki took a single bite of his “portobello ravioli” and shoved it away in disgust, declaring that entrails would taste better than this, but Thor shoveled fettuccine alfredo into his mouth until it was gone.

He’d had better salad, for that matter, but the zuppa toscana and breadsticks were actually quite good (if a bit salty). The fresh cheese on both salad and soup helped quite a lot, and he did enjoy the lemon cream cake he got a slice of. Thor ordered the zeppoli and made quite a mess of powdered sugar and chocolate sauce and still they both demanded more breadsticks.

They were there for hours, eating, drinking, reminiscing over the old days together, when they were still friends and brothers and there was still some sort of trust between them - a trust they were working hard to rebuild now.

Finally, it came down to a single breadstick in the basket between them. Thor eyed it and looked over to him. “You should eat it.”

“I can’t,” Loki groaned. “If I have another bite, I will explode like a fire giant shoved a sword in me.”

“Brother.”

“Too soon?”

“A bit. Anyway, I can’t eat it.”

“YOU can’t eat it? You, the Mighty Thor? I once saw you eat nearly half the royal livestock.”

“I did not!” he laughed.

“It seemed like it at the time!” he shot back with another chuckle. “And I absolutely cannot eat that breadstick.”

“We have to eat it or they won’t bring us more.”

“Why would we want more when we can’t even eat this last breadstick?!”

“Because we’re testing their ‘endless’ claim!”

“You dated a scientist for too long,” Loki told him.

“You were all for this experiment.”

He shook his head. “If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that sometimes there is nothing to be gained from reckless challenges.”

“I have yet to back down from any challenge!” Thor declared.

Their debate was interrupted by their server, who cleared her throat uncertainly. “I’m sorry, but we are going to need to close soon...”

“Oh, I’m sorry. When does this garden of olives close?” Loki asked.

“Uh... it’s just Olive Garden and technically? Three hours ago.”

“Oh.” Thor cleared his throat. “Well then, we shall trouble you no more.” He stood and pulled out a stack of small green papers. “Midgardian currency.” He pushed half the stack at the server. “Is this sufficient?”

Her eyes went wide. “Uhh...”

“What am I saying? We kept you so late. Here.” He gave her the rest of the stack as well. “Come, brother. Honor demands we stop here.”

“Oh, yes, honor.” He stood with a groan. “Not because we’re full.”

“No, of course not. I could eat another dozen breadsticks at least!”

“I could eat two dozen. If we could stay.”

“Of course. But we can’t.”

“No, it’s rude now. Let’s just go.” He stopped and smiled at the server. “Thank you for your service.”

“You’re... welcome.” She blinked at them both.

They headed to the front and Loki waited until the doors closed - and locked - behind him before he said, quietly, “I feel like I’ll never eat again.”

“Race you to the bathroom?” And Thor took off.

“NO FAIR WHEN YOU CAN FLY!”

[funnefatale]

wanted to make a post ranting about how much tlat fucked over val but it's so bad that it isn't worth the brain power it would take to write an essay so here's a list of bullshit. tlat spoilers obviously

this movie just unnecessarily made val into a slutty bisexual who has commitment issues? like, why was she like "an orgy sounds great" while thorjane (the straights) were like ew

the way they reduced her to the token black friend who is there purely to support the white mains??? like that was the vibe I got from the trailer but this was somehow worse??? she got virtually nothing???

why are the asgardians respecting thor more than val when she's their king and the one whose been taking care of them while thor's been fucking around having his fifteenth midlife crisis???

tessa said that there was a version of the script where her whole storyline was just about finding a queen and she had to step in because it was dehumanizing and the focus on val needed to be about her being a person who happened to be queer... but where was this person? we got some grrl power king status scenes and a couple of blink and you'll miss them lines about the valkyrior and that's it

how did we not get a single flashback about the valkyrior even though we know an extra was cast a valkyrie

she got nerf'd and kicked out of the final battle and was absent for like most of the last 30 minutes

some kids got more of a hero moment in the final battle than val did

pretty sure she actually had more screen time in ragnarok than in tlat

she had literally no character development or plot. she is literally just a body there to fight

no fr there's this whole ass scene where she's basically a body for korg?? it was very strange and didn't serve a purpose but she had to do it while because I guess thorjane are too important to do it

thor says that zeus was his childhood hero when it was previously val, and like yeah you can have more than one hero but come on

we are three movies deep, why doesn't val have a first name??? tessa implied she would get a name and then she just didn't????

val doesn't get to talk about her beloved herself - it's just korg babbling at her about her commitment issues and mentions an ex girlfriend

val lowkey compares jane to her sisters but their entire friendship is basically offscreen

there's this bit where korg says thor doesn't discriminate who he loves and it cuts to a montage of thor with a bunch of white women and idk that feels like an attack on the idea of a black woman being his love interest

also this isn't about val but thor's characterization was just so fucking awful this entire movie like holy shit who the fuck was that man baby because that was not the person at the end of ragnarok or even iw/endgame. like, what the fuck did taika do to my man??? but that may need to be its own post

in conclusion this movie sucks ass. is it queerbaiting? no, val is explicitly queer (and korg but who cares about that pile of rocks), but it's not a good movie and just a horrible movie for val in particular. if you're a qpoc or a woc who was excited to see val finally get her moment in the sun then don't even bother

[baritoneskies-blog]

“ you deserve so much more than what you’ve had ”

HE WANTS TO ASK her name. He wants to ask a great many things of her (once captor, once an instrument in his imprisonment) but he keeps his mouth shut. He wants quiet, for just awhile, and when that time passes, he does not want silence any longer, he cannot stand it.

He turns and he looks at her with his remaining eye (and he wonders if in the elegant halls of Valhalla, his father notes the resemblance) and he gives her a small smile.

Her words of comfort make him blink and it is as if he has swallowed poison, his throat becomes dry, and then, slick with something like fire, something that burns his throat all the way up through his lung tissue and he exhales and his heart pounds, loud and unsure of itself, a drum of war that only wanted peace.

He grieves. But he swallows that grief.

“—it does not matter what it is I deserve,” Thor expresses, once he is sure he can speak, “only that, the people of Asgard are safe. We live, and as we live, we shall find everything worthwhile.”

He became a we, he became a they.

“What I am most glad for is your presence here. The Revengers have disbanded, but we are all still together.”

His right eye socket aches. He does not know why. / @valiancedefined

[valkyrieandstrangeridingaragorn]

Might I ask, how would you have liked Loki or how do you think Loki would have acted in Ep. 3? I feel like his behavior was weird and I feel like maybe he would have done things a little differently. Like the train and the end and everything in-between just felt off. I ask this because this is the most we see him with someone else for the first time (not counting Mobius) and they were already trying to hint at a relationship already it seemed. How do you think he would have actually behaved and how things actually would have happened with him or should have happened? Like with Sylvie and just in general and how events would have happened if he acted like himself (Not sure if any of this makes any sense but i like reading your posts and you ideas)

Thank you dear 😉 (sorry, this got long!)

Personally I find it hard to believe his first instinct would be to team up and be allies with Sylvie, and not because she's a variant of him but because he doesn't know her at all? You think he would team up with a stranger he has no control over when he has not enough information about what she can do, what her powers are? That's a recipe for disaster.

And Loki doesn't trust easily either. At that point he's fresh from Thanos and the NYC invasion, his brother has been fighting against him, Mobius has blamed him for Frigga's murder and Odin is dead (and it's likely he thinks Thor is dead as well after that shot of IW). Loki's state of mind in that moment is fragile as all hell: what does he have left, especially now that he knows his timeline has been pruned and he can't go back? He has absolutely nothing and no one.

[As an aside, if Loki had been acting like himself he would have spent ep1 not answering a damn thing, messing with Mobius and faking sadness to manipulate him, he wouldn't have believed a damn word said to him just like the tape he saw would probably meant very little to him because images can be edited out. He's in a place where infinity stones have no power! Editing videos would be the easiest thing for them. But since he was ooc pretty much from the get-go...]

So I can see him going all in against the TVA. Taking into account his magic and the fact that he's a powerful sorcerer he would get in Sylvie's head and extract as much intel as possible, then depending on the info he'd probably form an allyship with her so they can both destroy the TVA or he'd just grab the Tempad and do it himself.

I think it would have been fun if he went from one agent to another telling them they're variants and getting in their heads like he did with Valkyrie in Ragnarok, form an alliance with them instead of Sylvie and have them fight Ravonna and Mobius while he goes to kill the Time Keepers.

What I know for sure is that he wouldn't waste time with the train and he wouldn't open up to a stranger who could use that info against him. He'd keep the upper hand at all times. At that point once he knows about the golden doors what is stopping him from leaving Lamentis, going straight to the Time Keepers and killing them? He doesn't need Sylvie for that. Just like he wouldn't be so preoccupied with telling Mobius the truth, why would he care after that godawful ep1?

With him being silly in the train... again, that doesn't make any sense either. The situation in Pompeii was different because his life wasn't in danger at all, he was there with Mobius and he knew they would escape before anything bad would happen. Because he can trust Mobius? Hell no, because he knows Mobius needs him. So despite how much I didn't like how exaggerated his behaviour was there, I can understand him letting go and being silly since he knows his life is not in danger. But in Lamentis it's exactly the opposite: there's a high chance he might not make it and the only way to survive it is to keep a low profile (and he has his magic? he can change clothes? he can shape-shift into whatever he wants? the fight makes no sense at all?!!). And what's even worse, he breaks the Tempad after getting drunk? 🙄

The train and wasting time charging the Tempad and all that bullshit could have been easily removed. Sylvie is introduced only to help further the story so that Loki finds out about the golden doors, she's pruned in the meantime and goes to the Void, Loki returns to the TVA, tells the agents they're variants (ensuring they turn against Ravonna et al, an organization that can't control its workers is doomed) and kills the Time Keepers, finds out about the Void, prunes himself, meets with Sylvie again who introduces him to their other variants, they all team up to defeat Alioth, Loki gives his variants the Tempad so they can escape and go back to their timelines meanwhile him and Sylvie head to the Citadel as allies, no need for "superior variant" bullshit. Oh and in ep6 they talk it out, decide not to kill HWR who gets super angry because that's not the script he wanted so he had to kill himself. Suck it up, idiot.

[elenatria]

Since they didn't show Valkyrie's death I'll just assume she's alive and well, probably off on another planet with Lady Sif. But I'm still salty of how Thor conveniently forgot to use his newly found control of lightning, like wtf? Russo brothers did you not watch Ragnarok or did you just decide to scrap it and tell us that it's not canon? What is going on? (Ps. Loki is totally alive, even though Hiddleston is only marked as 'post-production' part of "IW" pt.2.)

Yeah, it’s called “Thanos’ plot armour”.

“Watch out for his fingers, they make sparks.”

You know I was just thinking of Valkyrie. If I saw her and Loki die, I wouldn’t know who to choose to bring back.

 IW conveniently left some major gaps in the storytelling. Maaaaajor gaps. Like yeah, whatever happened to Valkyrie (and Korg)? How come Thor couldn’t use his lightning? Maybe he was afraid to use it inside a spaceship. But he DID use it here.

Oh wait, that’s one of those omitted trailer scenes. Maybe it was omitted exactly because it was inconsistent with Thor being unable to use his lightning when the Statesman was attacked by Thanos.

Suddenly Thor needed a weapon again to channel his power of lightning. 

Joss Whedon has been accused by SJW’s of being a misogynist for having Natasha feel like a monster because she couldn’t have children.

Well, let me jump on the bandwagon too, go all anti-toxic masculinity and call out the Avengers films (NOT the Russo films because I still believe The Winter Soldier and Civil War are the best MCU films ever) on being all about endless, longer than necessary battles and super weapons and gadgets. Gadgets gadgets gadgets. Films that were made for boys with toys.

Boys, always remember, you’re nothing unless you have a big dick or a big car or the next expensive gadget. “The power within” that Taika made a pitch for simply. Doesn’t. Sell. Marvel can’t make money out of thin air.

“But it’s comic book canoooooooon, stop blaming Stormbreaker for everything!!!11″

Sure. But it’s also very beautiful merchandise.

And Thor’s inability to use his lightning power in the Statesman is STILL inconsistent with “that other MCU film”.

You know what? Maybe the Grandmaster was right. Maybe those lightnings were just sparkles. Just for show.

*shakes head*.

Also, t’s funny how many things Thor knows about the Infinity Stones or about Thanos decimating Xandar to get the Power Stone for the purpose of hasty   quick exposition. Also he mentions that Thanos “slaughtered half his people”. Nice one, Thor, nice gap in the storytelling to fill in later. So I assume Thor knows somehow that half his people have survived? (a fact we didn’t see) Did that happen before Thanos entered the Statesman? Were they teleported somewhere with the help of Heimdall and Valkyrie as their leader? Did they jump on life boats? Or was Thor hanging there, struggling in Thanos’ hands, counting the corpses and thinking “One two three four five… oh that’s not all of them, they must have escaped somehow, phew.” But I didn’t hear any wailing as it happens when people are not dead but conscious, severely injured and lying on the ground.

It seems to me Thanos gave him a little speech recounting his adventures so far before grabbing his body and torturing him in front of Loki. Like, a very detailed speech that we didn’t see.

Lol yesterday I got a troll-under-the-guise-of-a-friend telling me that “one Taika film cannot undo decades of work” (I’m assuming they meant comic book canon, because the MCU has been around for only a decade, not decadeS. Also I’m sure they copied that phrase from somewhere on tumblr, sounds like all the other Taika-hating pet phrases). I wonder, is this the new tumblr trend, shitting on Taika now that the new MCU film is out? What a great opportunity for all those who hated Ragnarok for all these months (for Tom/Loki-stanning purposes I guess) to hide behind IW now and use it as an excuse to hate on the previous MCU film. Quite convenient. Personally I don’t follow the comics, I follow MCU canon. And if the MCU cannot be consistent with its own movies then I’m sure it’s not Taika’s fault.

Tom is marked as “post-production”? What does that even mean?… o__O

Well of course Loki is alive. But let me tell you this. 

I’m not saying Loki isn’t dead.

I’m just saying, with all those convenient plot holes they left in the movie (his body not turning back to its Jotun form etc etc)  they could bring him back any time they choose. Next year, when the new Thor film is out, in a decade from now, whenever. WHENEVER.

Right now he has a 50% chance of being alive.

Like Schrödinger’s cat.

[weirdlyfitting]

Okayy mom spoiler stuff y'all better get off if y'all haven't watch it!!!

Soooo

Multiverse of madness is....

It's good, it really is BUT SADLY....

I'm pretty unsatisfied :(

Yes, i expect loki, silvie (sylvie??), mobius trio or kang to appear. Yes, i expect there'll be a moon knight tie in. Yes, i expect that mom would've had the same crossover vibes as infinity war...

And before the movie started to begin i tried to lower my expectations but i sorta had that faith, i'm glad that i kept em down tho, also i left the theater with humming dr strange's theme hahaha. STILL THE MOVIE'S COOL!!! >v<)💜💜

But well for the unsatisfied part?

It's because i hated that marvel treated this movie like endgame....

As if the whole "don't spoil the endgame" stuff happened again yk

In mom i realized that it's no iw or endgame, the stories that're exist before didn't lead up to one big final conclusion in the next story...

I remember the first time i watched iw in theaters i was so shocked that it opened as a direct continuation from the post cred scene in thor ragnarok. (A reminder that i wasn't into mcu that time and didn't even know if all of the mcu movies are connected)

So anywayyy what's the point of the whole nexus, tva, and kang's existence if they're not in there??? And heck how bout the watcher? he could be in there to idk keeping chavez be in his side to watch the multiverse (knowing that there's only one chavez in the multiverse yk)? AND WHERE'S MA BOI VISION??? If there's anyone who could stop wanda other than herself THEN IT'S VISIONNN 😭

And one moreee

au wanda deserve to be angry at wanda LIKE BROOOO

Our wanda made her had those bruises and cuts, plus her feet when she walked with the shattered glasses my goddd 😭 (unintentionally but i'm glad mk aired b4 mom cause yeah atleast i've trained myself to not freaking out too hard seeing a chara walking/running with shattered glasses on their feet lmaooo)

Why was she so calm with our wanda huhhh???? 😭 Ma'am your other version of yourself is trying to take your sons away and YOU'RE FRIGGIN CALM???

Anyway that's all ig, still i enjoy the movie so much. Just having way too many expectations ehehehe

[motleymusings]

I love the battle on Bifrost at the end of Ragnarok. I really do. Seeing Loki back in o fighting like that! And putting that music to it was a stroke of genius. But there is one line that really jarred, even the first time I saw it- how can Thor say to Loki, "You're late!" when he had left him pinned to the floor in pain? Of course he was friggin' late!

I saw no reconciliation in the film, but I did see Loki open to the possibility of it. But it looked like Thor put all shutters up against Loki, closed him off. Loki felt differently. Remember in the dungeon, him calling Hela "our sister"? In other words he had already reconciled himself to being part of the family. But Thor gave him that mini lecture on growth, so didn't even see that.

Nor do I see what happened in the next film as Loki sacrificing himself for Thor. (Do we know that the purple unmentionable was going to take out one of them? Even when they were all about to leave?) There was no reason to die.

Why walk back into that scene? Why only introduce the Hulk after first letting the purple unmentionable hurt Thor? Does that mean that the Hulk didn't take part in the battle? (Why haven't people asked, and criticised the Hulk character for that?) Loki moving Thor out of the way saved his life. He couldn't use his magic to disguise them both while the others were distracted? Or take him to wherever Loki went when he left the scene?

So many gaps. I truly wanted Endgame to fill them in. Truly thought it would make sense of that scene. Perhaps even show them go back in time and change it. But no. They had to show Loki dying, and change the narrative to say he did it for Thor.

In my opinion squeezing that in must have been tighter than the purple unmentionable's grip. Loki either gave up or went crazy. He didn't sacrifice himself. I know that's the narrative, but it isn't what's on the screen.

Sorry to add to a Ragnarok post with the disaster that was IW. But the fact the two films just don't fit together shows what little thought was given to Loki. Lots of times through Ragnarok he is OK with his brother. At the end they almost hug. In the last scene they are standing together, musing together, on the same page. Then the next time we see them Loki is letting someone inflict pain on him? I don't buy it.

I don’t buy Thor and Loki’s “reconciliation” in Ragnarok. I just don’t. That entire movie went out of its way to slam Loki down at every turn, both by Thor’s actions and the narrative itself. It stripped him of all his good qualities, reduced his motivation to “for the lulz” and denied and shat all over any attempts at any other reading and any sincerity for the character (hell, *characters*) you might have dared to feel. 

He had like maybe two okay scenes apart from the fight with Vakyrie and one of them (the saviour scene) *still* hinged on mockery of Loki’s desire for validation, turned up to eleven by making him out to be the most dramatic of drama queens. It was about laughing *at* Loki rather than with him, much like the rest of the movie. 

The other is the “I’m here” scene, quiet and sincere and utterly *utterly* undeserved after the atrocity of the electrocution scene. Like, I’m sorry, but whatever smidgen of realization Thor managed to gain by ~changing his mind~ after their talk in the dungeon is made completely moot by putting that disk on his brother, *gloating at him about change* in the most tone deaf sanctimonious way and then just *leaving him there* with no hope of escape in the middle of enemy territory after he just betrayed the crazy dictator for him. That scene has utterly wrecked Thor as a character in my eyes.

I know I can’t control other people’s reactions to it, but part of me wants to scream that *how dare* people think that was reconciliation? That it was Thor learning to relate to Loki? That it was anything but Thor once again steamrolling over Loki? The same sanctimonious bullheaded bullshit Thor has been dealing out over the entire movie to everyone and we’re supposed to buy it was progress? Ha fucking ha. 

Loki returning at the end isn’t a reconciliation, it’s just getting back to their old patterns because Loki realized he had nowhere else to go and this was the best he could get. It put him in a place so desperate he basically committed suicide by Thanos in the very next movie. 

So, like, in summary fuck Ragnarok. 

[bedlamsbard]

for the fic writing meme: 14, 37

14. What’s the worst writing advice you’ve ever come across?

Well, what's worst for me will be great for someone else, because we all have different styles and different approaches, and I don't read writing advice anymore. So, nothing that is super, super bad comes to mind -- I'm sure I've read or heard a lot of it, but none of it stuck with me.

37. Talk about your current wips.

Sure! So I've got several at present:

The Horizon Line: Prequel to On Yonder Hill, a Loki lives/Thor dies IW/Endgame AU set six months after the Snap, with flashbacks to the period just before and sometime after the Snap. Like Yonder, this is a Natasha POV; it's the first Avengers mission post-Thanos, and Loki's first Avengers mission, a.k.a. "I will take all of the underused Phase One and Phase Two villains who weren't explicitly killed onscreen and put them in a post-Snap blender." It's dealing with the absolute mundanity of surviving an apocalyptic event that isn't a smash-and-grab apocalypse (there's an upcoming scene of Darcy on the phone with her graduate school, because what do you do when half of your dissertation committee has been snapped?), about coming back into the world (because Steve and Natasha were out post-CW, Bruce was post-AoU, but now they're back in, officially; Loki's dealing with stepping into Thor's shoes and having to be an Avenger), and the superhero stuff of "and somehow, on top of all this nonsense, killer robots." (The killer robots are actually a red herring, I'll give you that one for free.) So I get to do a lot of plot stuff, I get to deal with some things canon has not dealt with that I would have liked to see it deal with (let's talk about how much damage has been done trying to recreate Erskine's super soldier serum and how Steve has to live with that), I get to do worldbuilding, character stuff, and also I get to write my weird Steve/Nat/Loki trio because I might as well.

Better in the Morning: My Loki series fic. Goes AU immediately after episode 1 and incorporates literally nothing else from the rest of the series; series!Loki joins up with a TDW!Frigga, a IW!Thor, a Ragnarok!Hela, and a TDW-but-sideways!Odin -- so it's every member of the Asgardian royal family from a different point in the timeline where things went just slightly sideways, except for Odin, who has a timeline which diverged two years earlier but was still proceeding along normal events until TDW. As of chapter 8, they're finally out of the TVA and into Odin's timeline, which is the altverse -- the timeline where Odin didn't send Mjolnir after Thor in the first Thor movie and Thor fell off the Bifrost as a result, ending up in Thanos's service to play the villain role in The Avengers, while Loki got to be The Good Son (no pressure). So there are some familial issues there, plus it's Avengers!Loki so he's pretty messed up anyway. I get to play around with six (?) different AUs -- it's great characterization practice -- plus Asgardian cosmology and what I wanted the TVA to be doing (but didn't end up happening in canon) and do a lot of worldbuilding.

Reaches Past These Ghosts: A Yonder spinoff -- what happened to the 2012 that the chaos trio accidentally altered during the Time Heist? I'm treating this one less seriously than Horizon and Morning, because it was originally supposed to be a series of different possibilities of what could have happened in 2012, and then it was supposed to be part of the Yonder sequel, but who knows at this point. Thor takes Loki back to Asgard, and Loki accidentally-on-purpose brings Steve and Natasha along; in Asgard Steve and Natasha speed run acquaintances-partners-friends-lovers, Loki spends a week unconscious so can't immediately antagonize his family, Thor is Very Concerned, and on Earth Fury is just like "why is this happening" and has to call in everyone.

and two untitled stories:

the Yonder Disney story: Yonderverse; epistolary story of how Walt Disney World dealt with the Snap from its closure through the reopening of Animal Kingdom, Magic Kingdom, and EPCOT, told via Disney Parks blogger headlines, tweets, occasional full blog posts, and YouTube titles. It's very niche; I have to be in the right mood to work on it, and it's going to get about six readers. But it's also more of that "mundanity of living through an apocalypse" thing.

the Yonder Thor POV story: exactly what it says on the tin: Thor POV from his desnappening in Yonder up to...whenever I decide it ends, I guess, maybe all the way up to the end of Yonder. I was thinking about doing this even while Yonder was in progress because Thor has had The Worst And Weirdest Day Ever.

beyond those I've got various scenes from things that aren't actively WIPs -- I've got some altverse scenes that may or may not go into Morning (one of them definitely will, most of them won't; I'll post them separately), and the odd scene out from something else, like the altverse AU where Thanos also kidnaps Loki.

[nonbinarylowkey]

@ayasugi-san

Re: what you said about Valkyrie

I'm assuming you're referring to her capturing people and giving them to the Grandmaster to fight in his colosseum because there's nothing to indicate she did anything that was too terrible (aside from whatever participation the Valkyrie had in Odin's conquest, which I'll address). And if this is what you're referring to, you're right. She was enslaving people for the Grandmaster and that is extremely awful. I think the narrative wants us to see her actions as being something she had to do to survive on Sakkar to avoid being enslaved herself or worse. So it doesn't address that what she did was terrible, even if circumstances didn't give her much of a choice. But the fact that she didn't die and there was no indication that she was supposed to (like Loki originally was in TDW) also means that her story was handled in a slightly better way. At least there's the option for her to atone. A storyline where the character is meant to die doesn't even leave that option open which is why the original plan for Loki in TDW and his ultimate fate in IW frustrate me so much, which is why I made the original post. It's unfortunate that the narrative of Ragnarok never addressed the wrongs Valkyrie committed and even had her all buddy-buddy with someone she had enslaved (Hulk). It would have been very interesting to see that dealth with. But one movie was only ever going to tackle so much, especially with a supporting character.

The next Thor movie is also going to be directed by Taika Waititi so he can easily rectify that, but also let's face it. What Valkyrie was doing on Sakaar was so glossed over in Ragnarok that it will probably continue to be treated as a non-issue going forward.

As to your second point, again, you're right. Asgard's destruction doesn't make up for the destruction Asgard inflicted on other worlds during Odin's conquest. And it does mean that the places conquered by Odin and all the Asgardian kings before him will never get the things they lost back. I also don't think that Ragnarok or makes it out like Asgard has been forgiven for their imperialism, though (IW and Endgame just go back to not addressing it). I mean, Taika Waititi is a Polynesian Jew. I doubt he's unfamiliar with how awful imperialism is and I'm certain he doesn't think that blowing Asgard up atones for that. I think that's just another thing the movie didn't have room to address. Ragnarok is the first one to even address Asgard's imperialism as a bad thing so I do think it deserves a little credit for that. I think if the Asgardians had tried to take refuge on, say, Alfheim, we might have been able to see that storyline dealt with, but the greater MCU canon wouldn't allow for that since most everything important happens on Earth (with the exception of GotG and maybe Captain Marvel, which I haven't seen. But as far as Thor is concerned, Earth is the most important place.) And Earth is considered part of the Nine Realms that Asgard controlled, but it's also so disconnected that Asgard's rule went entirely unnoticed. Which is weird. But that's how it's been since the first Thor movie. I kind of don't understand why they kept Earth as part of the Nine Realms at all other than that's how it is in the myths, but that's besides the point. The point I'm trying to make is that you're right; Asgardians need to atone for their world's imperialism, and its destruction doesn't do that. But we also have no reason to think that the people who were hurt have forgiven Asgard because we never actually see the victims of Asgard's imperialism after Asgard is destroyed.

And since Asgard was just an example you used, I'll also add on that I agree with you that morality for everyone else is basically just "heroic death = redemption." I mean, look at Tony. He was the cause of half the awful shit that happened, but he died helping to save the world so we're going to ignore that, I guess.

The only reason I singled Loki out for my original post is because he's my favorite and also the only one I could think of who had the chance to begin a proper redemption arc after his heroic death redemption was scrapped.

Overall, I do agree with you. Ragnarok wasn't a perfect movie and although I love it, I never meant to imply it. It gave Loki a chance to begin his redemption in earnest while ignoring Valkyrie who also needed to do some atoning. And the MCU as a whole just has examples of heroic deaths = redemption all over the place. But I'm less invested in the overall MCU so I didn't talk about that.

the best thing about ragnarok is that it doesnt do the whole "oh look I'm gonna die doing one heroic thing and call that redemption" for loki. it actually gives him time to do good and prove that he can be better than the worst things he's done.

like if fans hadn't been so upset with his originally plotted death in the dark world, he would have just done one good thing, died, and then never actually do anything to make up for the wrongs he committed.

ragnarok actually let's him do good. he focuses on rebuilding asgard and puts emphasis on public works instead of focusing on war and fighting after odin was ready to let everything be destroyed in tdw. he doesnt kill odin as tdw implies he did, he left odin in a place where he would be taken care of even if he was stripped of his powers. loki helps save the people of asgard. and he goes back to help thor in the aftermath of asgard's destruction instead of fucking off and just doing his own thing.

ragnarok allows loki to grow in a way that the "big heroic action immediately followed by death" scenes in tdw and iw didnt. and i just love that because loki wasn't a good person prior to ragnarok. he reacts to learning that odin and frigga have lied to him his whole life by plotting the genocide of his actual people. he doesnt fight the dark elves with thor out of the goodness of his heart in tdw, he does it because he wants revenge and then he tricks thor into thinking that he died and takes control of asgard (and yes, I did say that he did good things while he was pretending to be odin but the way he got to that point was awful). his actions during the avengers may not have been of his own free will, but ultimately he did hurt people and he does need to atone for that even if all of the responsibility doesnt fall on his shoulders. but in ragnarok we actually see him taking steps to be a good person. there's no expectation that he'll be forgiven because he died for someone else. expectations like that are just huge cop outs. redemption and atonement take work. death gets you out of work and doesn't give anyone a real reason to forgive you.

it really is too bad that it was decided infinity war would just repeat his lackluster storyline from the dark world instead of building on the awesome foundation taika waititi gave us

[beavakarian]

@subtema Pheraps, it's precisely because I know what mourning does and what it means to suffer from a post-traumatic disorder, that I fully condemn the management of Thor in this movie. As I said before, a breakdown doesn't work that way. Should not be comic, not to mention how much is OOC for Thor's character react in that way, after all that's happened.

I have no problems with that belly, I have no problems with that hair. I have problems with the attitude. And who allowed this mess to come to light, that is the Russos, the writers, the bad influence of Waititi and Chris himself.

Because he has power and control on his character, and we're talking about Hemsworth's whims on interpreting Thor for years by now. It's all in his interviews, just to find out who's behind this shit.

Look, maybe I was upset a lot, I'm sorry I was so rude, but I don't take back a word of what I said because I FUCKING CARE. Because, sad but true, this is the thruth. Chris wants to play himself everywhere, by now. But in the character of Thor they didn't have to let him.

Here we are beyond Ragnarok, here we are insulting towards a great character, who has nothing to do with the Thor of today, robbed of any honor, dignity and self-respect for pure pleasure to mock mental illness and the Branagh Shakespearean Thor.

Let us add the fact that for me Thor is sacred (as Loki) and that in 4 films he did not have a continuity (AoU/Ragnarok/IW/Endgame), here is the reason for my anger.

No offense, but open your eyes. I did it only recently, I always defended Chris until he was defensible. But faced with certain public attitudes, words and concepts expressed, his position towards the character is very clear. Chris doesn't like Thor. He interpreted himself in 2 films (Ragnarok and Endgame).

I still don't understand the reason of all this difficulty in interpreting a character like Thor, as it had been conceived. It's an amazing and powerfull character, he is a god. A solid person. He's Thor, The God of Thunder, The Son of Odin.

It's a character that moves by itself... It was perfect, Chris was perfect for me from Thor to AoU and IW (i loved him with all my heart). And Chris was perfect also in Rush and in In the Heart of the Sea, for my personal taste.

Maybe the critics was too hard on his character, in the past. But, the thing about getting the character rewritten because the actor doesn't like it anymore, and pretend to acting like himself is unacceptable. Mocking the others characters is unacceptable, in public interview.

I'm sorry, but it's not professional at all. And from a person like Chris I expected this things.

Thor - It’s not Endgame. It’s a Game Over. Endgame spoiler and rant.

You are warned, here I am leaning against Chris and all those who have allowed this shit to have space, origin, end. If you love the very recent time Chris, how did he become, if you love Ragnarok, if you love Waititi, DO NOT READ BEYOND. I don’t want flame, I don’t want anything. It’s my rant, on my blog. I only ask to recpect my opinion and my point of view. And I’m angry. A LOT.

Sorry for mistakes, my poor english (I’m not native and is 3 am, and I’m out of me).

Keep reading