#please note that my straight ships aren't more canon than my gay ones so what's the point

[sockhatingsapphic]

my thoughts on buddie as "toxic shipping"

i recently read a post that discussed "toxic shipping" of mlm ships by straight women and their main/first example was buddie so i wanna talk about that. i won't be linking that post because i don't want people to hate on the op and clog their notes unnecessarily.

more thoughts and correct capitalization under the cut:

However, I do want to say that people often assume that the main shippers of mlm couples are cishet women and that is very often not true. I can't say this definitively, of course, and I've heard horror stories of middle-aged cishet white women who literally write mlm fanfiction but aren't cool with real life gay people (especially lesbians). However, as a (cis, white) lesbian I have many other queer friends who enjoy mlm fanfiction.

Okay, now more specifically with Buddie. I don't remember the exact points in this critique, but I'm going to try to focus on the ones I do remember. Hopefully, if that op finds this, they won't think I'm completely twisting their words. The first thing I want to say is that I don't know if the op has watched the show or just interacted with the fanbase. Either way, I have done both and want to add some insight.

Firstly, a big problem with non-canon mlm shipping is when fans hate on the real female love interests in the source material. Buddie fans definitely do this, but I want to give a bit of defense, centering three of the most important female love interests of both Buck and Eddie.

Abby Clark (Buck)

I don't have beef with Abby as a person or a character, but she very much hurt Buck and the way she left was a bit of an asshole move. I haven't seen a lot of criticism of her other than that and I think criticizing that is fair.

2. Ana Flores (Eddie)

Ana does get an unreasonable amount of hate, but it's still not that much from my POV? Most of what I've seen of Ana hate is just fanfiction where she is extremely OOC, and she doesn't show up enough on-screen for the audience to truly know her character. I think people mostly use her as a plot device, which is unfair but also kinda what happens to her in canon too. I also want to mention racism in connection with people hating Ana, as I am sure it (both consciously and unconsciously) affects how she is perceived, but as a white woman who has not done a lot of research I'm going to leave it there for other people to dig deeper into.

3. Taylor Kelly (Buck)

Oh Taylor Kelly. She is a much more active character than Ana, and even more than Abby simply because she's been in more seasons. Taylor has a very dynamic character on the show, and she gets a lot of that "canon female love interest of half of an mlm ship" hate. But also, Taylor Kelly fucking sucks! In canon, her and Buck have finally broken up, so I don't see a problem in saying that they were not right for each other, plus she did a bunch of really shitty stuff to the firehouse. She was literally introduced in an episode where she filmed the 118 while they were non-consensually drugged! And left after an episode where she made a promise to Buck about keeping their privacy and then immediately broke that promise for her job. Okay, I don't want to make this just a Taylor Kelly hate post, so that's all I'm gonna say about her. I understand that she has her own motivations and trauma but she's still done a lot of bad things and I am glad Buck broke up with her.

OKAY DONE WITH THAT

The other main point that the op had was that it's shitty to call a ship queerbaiting if there are already queer people/couples in the show, and representation of other diverse peoples (paraphrasing, please don't attack them). This is... kinda obviously not true? I mean, one of the best (worst for the audience) examples of queerbaiting is Sterek, which comes from a show with a Latin lead and at least a few queer side characters. Another good example is Supernatural, which does not have any main characters of color or queer characters (as far as I remember, and I'm not including Castiel because he was queer for like 5 seconds before dying), but has several POC and queer side characters, including some recurring characters like Charlie (and others, idk i don't watch spn sorry).

"But Zoe, those are different! 9-1-1 has main characters that are queer and POC!" This is true, but the importance of their queerness and/or race is rarely touched upon. Think about it: Hen and Karen get about 2 episodes per season that actually focuses on them and their relationship, and one of the first ones is literally Hen cheating. Not really fantastic representation. Also, like, queer people often flock together, so having more than one queer main character is not "unrealistic" or whatever the problem is.

Lastly, I want to talk about Buddie itself.

I don't really think it can be called full queerbaiting, because I think that has to go beyond the screen and include promotional footage (like Sterek) and cons (like Destiel), which I haven't seen any of. However, I am fairly new to the fandom, and only found out Oliver Stark is British like two months ago. So maybe there have been outside hints that could make Buddie queerbait if it doesn't become canon. Either way, there's definitely something there, and I don't appreciate the way outsiders have gaslit fandoms for several years into thinking they've just "put on shipping goggles" or something like that.

We all saw Eddie's entrance to the show, right? When "What A Man" starts playing as Buck slow-mo turns around to see Eddie half-naked? I don't think this ship is the end-all be-all of TV romance, but it's definitely got a lot of hints in there that were purposeful by the actors, directors, editors, and crew. If not queerbaiting, they have definitely participated in some queer-coding/romance-coding of this couple and we are not insane for noticing that.

ANYWAY

that's it, and I hope I didn't accidentally co-opt a discussion of a deeper topic, but I want other shippers (god I hate that word it sounds so juvenile) to know that we're not insane or seeing things no one else does.

thanks for reading and also all the fish!

[addershade]

A Semi-Stuctured Rant on Antishipping, Fujoshi Culture and the monetization of Homosexuality in Japanese and American Media

Antishippers are homophobic and it's bothering me. But also so are fujoshis and that bothers me too

Part One: Antishippers

Where there sails a ship ship so to the antishippers let fly their flags. A common argument I see painted on the bows of their warships is 'This character hasnt been stated as gay yet don't ship them with them.'

This is such a problematic sentence I don't even know where to begin. The fact that people view the default state of sexuality as 'straight until declared gay' creates the stigma that being homosexual is in some way deviant or taboo.

As an example: nobody has a problem with Todoroki being shipped with Momo despite them having minimal character interaction and very little shared dialogue in the show. Yet because they have been seen together in one (1) episode it has even been assumed canon on the same level as Izuku and Ochako which it quite simply is not.

Compare this to Bakugo and Kirishima who have several scenes together, most in even more intimate settings than Todoroki and Momo (study date, walking home at sunset together, the money scene, the rescue, I could go on) yet since the creator has not OUTRIGHT stated that either of these two are gay they have been assumed straight. Antishippers never go after TodoMomo in the same way they do KiriBaku.

I've seen people go as far as to say it would never happen, the creator would never do something so radical as to include one (1) gay couple. Despite the already pretty strong LGBTQ+ presence in the show with characters like Tiger, Big Sis Magne and Toga. These three have their own problems (an issue for another time) but they are there and that's a big step forward that people like to forget about.

Also, is the concept of 'we don't get good gay representation in the media so we write our own' really such a hard thing to grasp? Because it shouldn't be. Gay representation in media is scarce and even if its there it might not be handled sensitively (cough cough banana fish cough) and people naturally would want to go out of their way to provide it for themselves. Because representation is important. Straight, cis, white men really wouldn't understand because they are represented in literally everything all the time so I geuss they can't really fathom not being able look at the main character and go 'it me.' Which is why they put up such a fuss about every single time a woman is cast as the lead role. In anything. But I digress.

My point is basically this: Characters with undefined sexualities are obviously going to draw people in and be used as a comfortable, familiar and interesting starting point to create someone you can resonate with on a deeper level. Especially if there's nothing contradicting your head canon. And even if there is, who cares? There's plenty of straight characters already, representation is not pie and also they aren't real people so thats an extra helping of 'it shouldn't bother you.'

Oh I forgot to mention this rant only extends to fictional character antishippers because I think shipping real people is icky and shouldn't happen regardless of sexuality.

Part Two: Fujoshi Culture

Yes there are straight gals and guys that fetishise it (the male version is a fudanshi at least get it right people) and that's gross and unforgivable please stop doing it.

I would argue however this epidemic is caused by the fact that media, eastern and western alike, refuses to normalise gay relationships. Which means they see it as this sick fetish thing and call it 'sinning.' The literal terms fudanshi and fujoshi are derogatory and paint enjoying 'yaoi' as a guilty pleasure, something to be ashamed of and ridiculed.

And I'd bet my bottom dollar that Japan would want to keep it that way because it does work to sell their mangas.

Nagisa really sums up the whole issue in 50 percent off here's the clip:

https://youtu.be/c_xwtbrXbZM

Part Three: Western Focus

I just want to point out how half hearted and overly subtle these relationships have to be, like you're sneaking it past the republicans like the producers dirty little secret.

Good examples from both sides are Bubbeline, KoraSami, All of Voltron and Literally Any Gay Man In Anime Except Yuri on Ice. Although Yuri on Ice is still pretty coy about admitting that their characters are in a gay relationship.

KoraSami, Bubbeline and Shiro x Shiro's flashback buddy are all western depictions. Being gay in western media is much less commercialised and much less marketable, which is why the main issue with all of these were the writers pushing for something that was then only really confirmed either in: a very heavily fought for kiss last episode or the love story told entirely in (two bros chilling in a hot tub style) flashbacks where said love interest dies in the same episode. None of these are good representation and I don't think I have to spell out why.

Anyway this is another video that sums it up better than I can

https://youtu.be/TOj4WfQPNlk

Part 4: The Bad, The Worse and the Ugly

tw: s*xual a*sault mentioned (part 5 is safe)

I'll be quick

Anime like Banana Fish and Black Butler really like to perpetuate the stereotype that gay men are only gay because they have been r*ped by sick, twisted older men.

As a gay man who has been s*xually a*ssulted in the way that they like to pretend defined my sexuality I can say that this is insulting, triggering and Never. Ever. Handled. Properly. Anime has some issues with sexuality as a whole but it really takes the cake when characters like Ash are abused in real time in the anime and then it's used to 'justify' their promiscuity with men moving forward.

Banana Fish in no way handles the sexual assault tactfully, no matter what people have said to me.

This is an extract I agree with heavily from a pretty well written article (Banana Fish spoilers) :

I mentioned earlier the finale sent an awful message to new viewers. Ash’s story was about survival so for him to easily give up, in the end, sent a horrible message to survivors of sexual violence because it not only told them a moment of vulnerability would get them killed, but the only way survivors could find any peace was through death. The fact that Ash gave up, told survivors they could never escape from their traumas and despite all their efforts, they would never be able to heal from their abusive circumstances.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thatnerdyboliviane.com/2019/01/21/banana-fish-a-bittersweet-experience/amp/

'Kill your gays' is a bad trope in any case but really was an especially poor choice here.

Part 5: Sex Sells and Gay Sex Advertises

I've mentioned above how manga and anime likes to package gay relationships into problematic little bundles and sell it to straight women as a curiosity or oddity. But I really think that it needs to be talked about more. Things shouldn't be more interesting to you just because they're gay, and fetishising minorities is never okay in any context.

I think it's important to note that really the attitudes in both Western and Japanese media are actually the exact same. That being, Gay people are 'others' and should at all costs be hidden away into corners. The only real difference is that Japan is known for selling that kind of content, lumping it in the same category as tentacle hentai and... I don't know any other categories but the point stands. Whereas western media tends to just sequester it into a corner and hope it gets past censorship boards and Karen's. Money is at the forefront of both of these descisions.

It's a real problem that both sides of the anime culture are so problematic. One side is way too into it and the other can't begin to process it.

Here's a video by the same person that covers basically the same ground that's concerning me so much.

https://youtu.be/t3FKlqDocQ4

Part 6: In conclusion

I feel like this is something that is worth being angry about. I'm just sick of how being gay is treated at the moment in anime, tv and film, and how it's being received by straight audiences. The LGBTQ+ community barely seems to get a real say half of the time because people are too busy being head over heels that the author confirmed in an interview that a character is bi or gay but never follows through with it in universe. Or when you try and create content for yourself and get criticised like you were supposed to be happy about what little representation you get in mainstream media. Like shows do the bare minimum and then we're supposed to be happy about it. But I ain't. And I don't think many other people are either.

TLDR:

Gay people being treated like a taboo little secret on both sides of the issue is insulting and gross and never leads to anything good.

[toraonice]

Imo ther evasiveness of gay issues isnt cuz they wanted to portray love deeper than romance. Or cuz of Japanese indirectness cuz they aren't indirect with the het themes. It just seems like BS homophobic double standards imo. wat's ur opinion? (2)

Hi and sorry for the late reply! I’m finally trying to answer the questions I received. I’m glad that my note could help explain my point in a clearer way.

I am going to write about the topic of “depictions of homosexuality in Japanese fiction”.Important note: Not being inside the creators’ mind, I cannot tell whether they actually think Victor and Yuuri are romantically in love or not, but I am explaining why in my opinion they wouldn’t explicitly portray that in the series even if they were in love.

Under the cut because it’s not directly translation-related.

The topic of depictions of homosexuality in anime/drama in Japan is quite delicate. They have all that BL, yet they are really behind the times (to say it nicely..) when it comes to LGBT rights. This is also why, while in the US and other countries it’s pretty common to have (non-token) LGBT characters in drama, comics and movies, in Japan they are 90% of the times depicted stereotypically. There is still a deep-rooted discrimination toward LGBT in Japanese society which maybe is finally starting to get better little by little, and it’s very hard to find serious, normal portrayals of LGBT characters or relationships in fiction with a mainstream target (of course you might find it in fiction that is targeting smaller groups of audiences).

This means that openly showing a homosexual relationship in a mainstream anime like YOI (with “mainstream” I mean that is targeting people of all ages and genders) is very risky, because you might end up losing potential viewers that would like the anime if it wasn’t for the LGBT contents. Since the anime is essentially about figure skating, and a possible romantic relationship between the characters is not the main point of the show (their relationship itself is important, whether it’s romantic or not isn’t as much), is it really worth it to go as far as to blatantly show two guys romantically get together, at the risk of losing viewers, just to please the fans who are expecting that? Is it so important for the story to show it explicitly? Is it worth the risk? From the point of view of a person who knows how even yaoi fangirls can be homophobes in real life, I will say that no, in my opinion it’s not worth it. It’s better to make the story so that it’s open to interpretations, meaning that who wants to see a romantic relationship has enough material to do so, and who prefers to think that their relationship is just platonic or non romantic can see it that way. This way you have an anime that can please both kinds of fans without risking to lose viewers. Though I know that many Western viewers are frustrated because they were expecting more romantic development.

To some people this might look like they are being homophobic or don’t have the courage to complete what they started, but I swear that what they did with YOI is already revolutionary because normally you would only see all those hints in a BL work (and in my opinion the depictions of the characters’ psychology and their development are way better than most BLs out there). It’s hard to understand because it’s all connected to deep cultural differences that you can only notice if you spend a long time in the Japanese society, but it really doesn’t look to me like they are being homophobic.

Also, on a side note, in Japan it’s common for yaoi fangirls to “hide”. No one would ever send the creators comments like “Yuuri and Victor are so in love!” (well maybe a few crazy people might but they would be labeled as crazy by other fans). Even in the case of Victor and Yuuri, the majority of Japanese fangirls who ship them do not think that they are canon, because they would never think that two guys in a non-BL manga could really be in love (unless explicitly stated of course), to them it’s all “fujoshi fantasies”. So of course they are not expecting them to ever get together romantically and this is why the only complaints about that not happening can be found in the Western fandom. You might also notice how, even though some Japanese skaters like YOI, no one ever dared make comments about the LGBT elements in it like many foreign skaters did. So far I’ve only read one Japanese article on a website that covered the LGBT aspect of YOI, it was written by a guy (I think a straight guy) and I found it very nice. You will never see articles about that in any anime magazines, though you will see screenshots of Victor and Yuuri together printed all over the magazines, because they are just treated like fangirling material.

Lastly, as I wrote in the beginning I actually do not know what the creators really think, and I also have my own interpretation of Victor and Yuuri's relationship, but I personally believe that, even if the authors considered them romantically in love, you would need a huge miracle for them to ever show it explicitly in the series (season 2 or wherever), due to the reasons I stated above. What we saw in YOI was already really unconventional and absolutely rare as it was.