Welcome to EverythingTimeless’ Weekly Roundtable, a sprawling discussion in which your friendly neighborhood Mod Time Team breaks down episodes of our favorite show, Timeless. We can’t promise to be coherent, but we’ll try our best. Lovely header gif courtesy of our pal @lady-demelza.
This week: Season 1, Episode 1 - Pilot
Sarah: I think that we should first state that we are currently blogging this from what we consider the present: Wednesday, the 11th of July.
Ann: I hate to break it to you, Sarah. But it is actually the 12th of July.
Sarah: Well, I am in the past. Apparently. Changing it.
Ann: *Lucy screams in the distance*
Sarah: Can we call ourselves The Time Team? Time Team Part II?
Gissane: I like The Time Team Part II!
Ann: So I am actually just now rewatching the pilot (because if there is anything I excel at it's procrastination) and I still die over 2 things right off the bat: the cinematography of this show and MA'AM.
Sarah: That scene? With Lucy, Wyatt, and Kate silhouetted by the fire? Gorgeous.
Gissane: Agreed. It's STUNNING. And good grief, ma'am. Ma'am is everything.
Ann: Omg, for a minute I thought you were talking about /our/ Kate and I was VERY confused.
Kate: Ma'am forever and always. The little battles that Lucy and Wyatt have in that first episode create some great tension.
Ann: I swear she is a little happy when he gets time travel sick. And I appreciate that level of petty.
Sarah: Oh, definitely Ann. In retaliation for that self-satisfied look when she couldn't handle all of the seat belts. Surely.
Kate: He gets that same look when he tells he he needs her very modern bra.
Sarah: Perhaps we should start from the very beginning? I'm told it's the very best place to start.
Ann: The very best.
Kate: Maria Von Trapp was a wise woman.
Sarah: Lucy: First impressions.
Kate: Besides her phenomenal hair game? This woman is incredibly intelligent, but even better, she is witty. But Lucy in that classroom? All confident and full of facts. Leading lady swoon.
Sarah: Leading Lady Swoon™
Gissane: I loved Lucy's excitement! She puts so much heart into everything she does, and she is flat out perfect.
Ann: My first impression of Lucy was OH BUT I LIKE HER. She's a nerd through and through, in that she is hella passionate about history and is basically just Jazzed Beyond Belief about it all.
Sarah: I could definitely do with more of Professor Preston.
Kate: And having trouble with the establishment bros getting tenure? I was indignant on her behalf. But it leads nicely into her struggle to start her own legacy or fulfill her mother's. Which I think if you juxtapose with the last episode makes you go DAYUM.
Gissane: Amen to that, Kate!
Sarah: Definitely, Kate. But is also makes her intelligence and success working as part of the Time Team more satisfying. She's the fricking best.
Kate: She really is.
Gissane: Lucy was so easy to love from the moment she was on screen. Maybe it's because Abigail Spencer is a brilliant gorgeous unicorn, but she just had so much personality.
Ann: It's funny rewatching this after so long, and after being such a fan of everything about it, how different they all were at the beginning. It's like as much as I loved Lucy from the get-go, I did NOT like Wyatt.
Kate: So true. They became such a cohesive and indivisible unit i was hard to go back and see them before.
Sarah: Amen, Ann.
Ann: He was brash, kinda ruthless, and a little unhinged, to be honest.
Sarah: I thought Wyatt was boooorrring.
Ann: The dimples happily remain unchanged, however.
Kate: And besides the ma'am that stopped my heart, I was so very worried that Wyatt was going to be Vanilla Male Lead #950643
Sarah: Yes, Kate. Yes. I was like - Oh. Pretty and Generic.
Gissane: You know what I just realized, we never get a scene of what Wyatt's doing before he gets called in. We have Lucy's life and Rufus', but Wyatt nothing and now I'm very intrigued. Are we even told where he was? My memory is blanking on this.
Sarah: No! You are so right, Goose.
Sarah: We start in medias res on Wyatt.
Kate: I think Wyatt is meant to be the mystery as he is the military man. Shrouded in secret missions and all that.
Sarah: I think it also keeps him as Generic Military Pretty Boy.
Ann: I really expected him to be a cardboard cutout of the media's interpretation of a Super Soldier. As well, this episode did a really good job painting him as such. I was so happy to be surprised later on.
Gissane: And I agree. I didn't have any thoughts on him particularly rather that I didn't care. But then he mentioned his wife's death and I was like oh? Tell me more. Tell me more about the mysteries behind those blue eyes. Please and thank you.
Ann: I am at that scene right now. The whole jail scene with him and Lucy really deepened my interest in all of the characters.
Kate: And Rufus. Rufus is never not just everything and more.
Ann: E V E R Y T H I N G.
Sarah: I think that's one of the aspects of this show that really hooked me: It took character archetypes I thought I knew, and made them real, likable, and interesting.
Gissane: That entire scene in the jail is perfection. I get chills every time I think of Rufus' speech to the guard. Brilliant. EPIC.
Sarah: Fun fact: Malcolm Barrett improvised most of that speech!
Ann: He did?? I didn't know that!
Kate: That scene is even more profound now.
Gissane: That's when Rufus went from aww, what a sweetheart to OH MY GOD, YOU ARE EVERYTHING TO ME.
Sarah: Yeah! Kripke and Ryan talked about it at the screening I went to. He also improvised the "the back of the bus was great" line.
Kate: What this show does with Rufus, giving him this complex, meaty character and actually allowing for discussions of race through history is one of my favorite parts of the show.
Sarah: Yes, Kate.
Gissane: All the awards because that scene was the episode's best -- context and performance wise.
Ann: Hard agree, Kate. And they did it right from the start and kept it up the whole damn season.
Sarah: The moment Rufus says to Mason that it has never been a good time to be a black person in history was when I knew this show was self-aware. You can have fun, you can have irreverence, you can have a family show and still address very real, very important, very serious issues.
Kate: It's a perspective that demands to be told. I could not be happier they were brave enough to.
Sarah: And by Malcolm Barrett, who is the most perfect cinnamon roll as Rufus.
Gissane: This show's self-awareness is what makes it so unique. Time travel? Cool, it's been done a couple of times. But to actually highlight the negativity in history makes it much more unique and intriguing.
Ann: Another thing the show does well? Guest characters you care about. These random, one-off historical people...somehow relevant and fleshed out in 45 minutes every week.
Kate: I could write sonnets about Timeless and their guest characters. Maybe I have and they are hidden in my sock drawer... you don't know.
Sarah: Kate Drummond appears. Could be some sort of Male Brand Strong Female. But is somehow so careful and wonderful
(EDITOR’S NOTE: Delve into the kickass history of the amazing female journalists who could have served as inspiration for the fictional Kate Drummond with this week’s Historical Hour with Hilary, our resident historian!)
Kate: She is ballsy and capable. I love her.
Sarah: Both Lucy and Wyatt's interactions with her.
Ann: Exactly! Kate Drummond was brilliant. Also kickass red lipstick, which is bonus.
Sarah: Are meaningful and lovely.
Gissane: And so dedicated to her work. No distractions. I loved that!
Kate: And I think it is important they chose her, a character she who was fated to die. Because they make us love her and it makes the implications and the desire to change history to save her real for us. Just as it is real for the Time Team.
Sarah: Right, Kate. Contextualizing what it means to change - or not change - history. Kate is someone Lucy admired and had to watch die. Kate is someone Wyatt identified with immediately on a very intimate level - and had to watch die.
Ann: It's so powerful.
Sarah: Wyatt, as we see briefly here, is obsessed with saving his wife because he feels responsible. But in the very first episode, we see him save someone from their "fate" - only to see that effort thwarted minutes later.
Ann: OH A WILD GARCIA APPEARS. Quite literally wild. But also dayuuum.
Sarah: AND WHAT A FINE SPECIMEN HE IS. I will never not love Goran Višnjić.
Gissane: WHAT A COMPLEX SPECIMEN. And now he is someone I literally couldn't for the life of me imagine caring about and yet, here we are.
Kate: I could stare at those broody eyes, flippy hair, and angular cheekbones all the days.
Sarah: He could have chemistry with a piece of anthracite.
Kate: Yes, Goose. I knew the second he was supposed to be our "villain" we were in for a much more layered portrayal of a man with much more to show us.
Ann: That's the brilliance of well-written character-driven stories. I demand more.
Kate: We all did, so much so they were forced to renew it. Hahaha But I digress.
Ann: You also speak the sterling truth. (CONGRATS CLOCKBLOCKERS.)
Kate: (PAT YO SELVES ON THE BACKS, SIRS AND MADAMS)
Gissane: Can I just mention how much I love that fandom name?
Kate: You most certainly can, and I will heartily second it.
Ann: Also can we talk about the supporting cast for a quick second? A Denise Christopher or a Jiya Marri perhaps? Because again with the fleshed out, interesting REAL secondary characters.
Gissane: YES. And right from the start they're both such a presence on screen. You instantly want to know more.
Kate: I love Denise and her no nonsense attitude. I need to you save time guys. You will do it. I will need you again. You will do it. Wonderful, thanks, bye.
Ann: Ha ha ha, exactly!
Kate: And smart, capable Jiya! Rufus was making heart eyes at her in the very first scene and I both understand that on a spiritual level and am here for it.
Ann: Again though, another example of characters I expected them to just leave as cardboard cutouts. But nope. Not Timeless. No simple Hard Liner Bosses or Nerdy Tech Girls here. We get warm, lovely, interesting people.
Sarah: And then he asked her out like a normal person instead of weirdly objectifying her. And then she said yes like a person instead of being some strange Unattainable Manic Pixie Dream Girl.
Gissane: Shout it from the rooftops, y'all. From the rooftops!
Sarah: Yes - Annie. We actually get people!
Kate: And these people are women! How often does that happen?!
Ann: This and Wonder Woman? *laughs to keep from crying*
Kate: And women of color, no less. Be still my heart.
Sarah: I think one thing that really struck me upon rewatch was what a STRONG pilot this is. I always give myself the 3 Episode Rule.
Ann: Yes Sarah! I was just thinking that as it concluded. I immediately want to watch 15 more.
Sarah: Which is: Watch 3 episodes of a show before deciding it it's worth a watch. There wasn't huge amounts of obvious exposition. The plot was not throw-away.
Kate: It really had everything I was looking for.
Sarah: We were invested in the characters. And, as a person who is very picky about time travel, it handled that aspect so well.
Ann: I think, aside from Back to the Future, it's one of the only pieces of media that has handled time travel in a way I enjoy. Because OBVIOUSLY Back to the Future.
Kate: You can always tell when writers care about their characters because they give you no choice but to also. And they managed that with all of them which is no easy feat.
Gissane: See I liked the pilot. I didn't LOVE it. Until like the second rewatch after I'd already been invested, but it was just right to keep me wanting more. And then episode two happened. I have never looked back after that.
Ann: Oh man, episode 2. I think that is still my favorite episode.
Kate: I am not emotionally prepared to discuss episode 2. Lock it up, you two.
Ann: Gah, ok. You're right. That's for next week.
Sarah: So if we're going to sum up our feelings on rewatch:
Lady Swoon™
Wild Garcia Yes
Rufus FTW
Ann:
No One Likes Wyatt Yet
Kate:
(except Kate for shallow reasons only)
Sarah: Because that hat. Always the 40s fedora on classy, attractive gentlemen.
Gissane: He should always wear hats.
Kate: Ah yup. I mean all the Timeless men are yummy. I just want them all in various period hats for my viewing pleasure and I am not sorry.
Ann: And you shouldn't be.
Sarah: Never apologize.
Kate: The ladies, too. We are blessed.
Sarah: Any final thoughts on the first episode before we bring this Lifeboat back to dock?
Gissane: It's a damn good pilot when you think of it. So rich and full. And so very promising. I've converted about five of my friends into fans already. I'm stupidly proud of this.
Ann: I've got a question: What time period would you you guys travel to?
Gissane: One cannot simply choose. Nope. Don't make it.
Kate: Time travel questions are hard because being a lady in history could truly suck.
Ann: Yes it could. And probably will?
Kate: But I am not going to pretend like I didn't read all the Jane Austen and wish I wasn't Elizabeth Bennett.
Gissane: S A M E.
Ann: Oh hell yes. Or watch Meet Me in St. Louis and want to wear one of those outfits Judy Garland sports and sing on trolleys?
Sarah: Don't want to go all Owen Wilson on y'all, but send me back to that Lost Generation in Paris 1920s.
Ann: Only if I can drink with Hemingway.
Kate: Obvi.
Sarah: So long as you are Brave and Strong, Annie.
Kate: Can we just quickly pour one out for poor Amy?
Gissane: I wasn't prepared for that one, Kate. BRING AMY BACK.
Kate: Timeless and their twists man. MY HEART STRINGS CAN ONLY TAKE SO MUCH.
Sarah: *frantically makes buttons and posters* BRING BACK AMY. SAVE AMY 20K17.
Gissane: Seriously. MAKE ALL THE POSTERS.
Kate: They rip her away from us and Lucy and right before the episode with Robert Todd Lincoln. It is too much. I need to rest.
Sarah: May Robert Todd all carry us softly to sleep. Thanks for the great chat, ladies. Cannot wait to really unpack and dig in.
Gissane: Cheers to that. Til next week!
Kate: Agreed. Until next time!
Ann: See you IN THE FUTURE! #godiamsolame
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Leverage Season 1, Episode 3, The Wedding Job, Audio Commentary Transcript
Dean: I’m Dean Devlin, Executive Producer.
Chris: I’m Chris Downey, Executive Producer and Writer.
John: I’m John Rogers, Executive Producer.
Frakes: I’m Jonathan Frakes, Director of this particular episode, called The Wedding Job.
John: This is our farce with guns. Chris, why don’t you tell us where this episode came from?
Chris: I think we were taking a look at different settings where we could put the team. I don’t know exactly what the genesis was.
John: Oh, you know what I remember? Before the season started we put up a big list of cons and con references and crime references. And I put up Scandal in Bohemia, which is a Sherlock Holmes story. You said “what is Scandal in Bohemia?” because you have a life and hadn’t read Sherlock Holmes obsessively. And I said it’s when Sherlock Holmes pretends to be a minister at a wedding, starts a fire so he can see where somebody runs, like, where he’s hidden the document.
Frakes: Dan Lauria.
John: Dan Lauria. Fantastic actor. And he said, “I would like to see Nate as a minister.” And that’s how this episode was born.
Chris: Yeah. And, you know, we always look for things where they are easily identifiable roles where we can put people in and the wedding seemed like a very fun place for it.
John: Now Jonathan, that sequence was actually kind of cobbled together. How so?
Frakes: This sequence was cobbled together only because we had a concept that was not clear.
[John Laughs]
Frakes: We wanted to shoot it as a teaser that didn’t include all of this information.
John: Yeah.
Frakes: And when we watched the show, we realized that we were giving too little information, so without adding the cop car…
Chris: But, I mean, it plays out, we get everything -
John: Yeah, no, absolutely.
Frakes: I think it’s pretty clear.
Chris: It’s clear what happened
John: Although… But it’s interesting - we actually stole footage - the footage of the guy getting shot and everything is actually - the looks and stuff -
Frakes: Well we had the guy who got shot, but what we ended up stealing was the guy
[Unintelligible. They all talk over each other here.]
Frakes: Oh, here Tim is. That’s one of the signatures. Signature ninja zoom.
John: Signature ninja zoom, yeah.
Frakes: Mr. Hutton. Mr. Hodge.
John: Not this is - this is actually was supposed to be early in the season. Where did it wind up broadcast? Somewhere in the middle?
Chris: Somewhere in the middle, yeah.
John: And this is really still where the characters are working out their relationships and sort of, you know… You can see Nate, kind of, not being happy.
Frakes: Not thrilled that somebody else has brought in a, uh, a client in.
John: Exactly.
Dean: Yeah, originally this episode was supposed to air before The Bank Shot because it establishes the FBI characters, and for various reasons when it broadcast -
Frakes: Weren’t the FBI characters in the pilot, though, those same to?
John, Dean, and Chris: No.
Frakes: Oh, did they get written out?
Chris: They were actually created in this one, they were supposed to come back in The Bank Shot. But I mean, essentially, it plays the same way. People see the again and understand who they are.
John: Yeah. They feel like there’s a pay off.
Frakes: Nicole Sullivan, who’s connected to our dear friend, Mr. Downey.
Chris: Yeah. Oh boy, is she the best.
Frakes: Who walked in and took this show and walked off with it in her pocket. Did she not?
Chris: She’s fantastic.
John: In her beaded décolletage, she grabbed the show and disappeared with it.
Chris: MAD TV, King of Queens, countless shows. She’s really one of the most gifted comedic actresses I’ve ever worked with.
John: And this is also interesting because, Nate - we’re trying to establish, like, how they get their clients. Again, early in the season. And also, Nate’s character is a guy who’s used to being an insurance cop. He has a very distinct definition of what is right and wrong, and who’s been wronged and not wronged. And you see they have an argument about it - as far as he’s concerned, if the guy took criminal’s money, he’s not in the purview of innocent victim.
Frakes: And it’s also interesting that Nate’s character has people skill issues.
John: Yes.
Frakes: And that Gina’s character is there to soften those edges in this opening scene.
Dean: It’s a really nice dynamic.
John: Yeah, it’s one of the things where - it’s interesting, you know, we talk about this a lot - Nate Ford is not necessarily the most heroic guy in the world. He’s obssesive, he’s controlling; everything that makes him good at his job makes him not necessarily a great guy. And it was a real struggle to make sure - because Tim is so magnificently likeable as a human being, it was a real struggle during the season to make sure you know that he’s kind of a - jerk.
Chris: Yeah.
Frakes: He’s got that club in his bag!
John: Yeah. He’s - he drinks too much and he’s kind of a jerk and he’s super judgemental, and he’s very rigid, you know, emotionally.
Chris: I mean, those are the kind of modern characters that I think we respond to, are the flawed heroes, the guys that aren’t so nice, the Tony Sopranos.
Frakes: This is our 1st AD’s daughter.
John: Oh, that’s right!
Dean: In her screen debut.
John: This is one of my favorite little bits, actually, is Parker teaching the kid how to speed pick a lock.
Chris: Now by the way, that’s a lock. Sometimes you see people on the websites who aren’t exactly sure what it was, but that was a lock.
John: And that actually is one of the bits that we wound up not being able to ever do quite as much as we want - is Parker picks locks like other people knit. And if you watch carefully in the pilot, in the foreground when they’re back in the apartment, she has a giant box of locks she’s picking. That’s just kind of her hobby.
Dean: This scene sets up something very important in the series, which is: all of our characters made a fortune in the pilot.
Frakes: $30 million, or $35 million?
Dean: $32 million. And what’s very interesting in here is she wants to help, and the team doesn’t want to they say, “Why don’t you just write her a check?” And she says, “Well I will if I have to.” But that doesn’t give this woman what she needs. She wants revenge. She’s not asking for all the money in the world, she wants what’s owed her, and she wants it to come from him. And without that, there is no justice.
Chris: Which is an important thing to say, just for the series, I think. To establish that, if there’s ever a question in the audience’s mind - well why do they go to all these great lengths to steal a small amount of money when they made this much - this answers that question in this one scene.
John: Also, most of them have spent that money. They plainly in the pilot -
Frakes: They spent $32 million bucks?
John: Well Aldis spent an awful lot of money on something.
Frakes: On clothes.
John: Yeah. On clothes, on just those fly hats he wears, and she bought a couple different houses scattered around. No. I mean, they’re definitely comfortable. But yeah, the aspect of it’s not just money, it’s justice.
Frakes: She bought a regional theatre that she can stalk.
Chris: Exactly.
John: You know what, we actually address this - she would consider that cheating. She auditions; she still auditions. She would consider that cheating.
Dean: One of my favorite comic takes of Tim is actually right here (~5:47).
[All Laugh]
Chris: He’s got some great ones. We’ll point them out later.
John: Yeah, he’s got some great chops. (Pause) Is that the actual mansion? Is that the front of the building we used?
Frakes: Yeah! We actually found a location we could see out of the location from. We don’t usually - we’re not usually that logical on television.
John: Yeah. Usually this is behind a Best Buy.
Frakes: Exactly! ‘Pretend you’re looking at it.”
Chris: Somebody was there, like, looking for snakes before we got out there; rattlesnakes. And they were like, ‘You might wanna back away.’
Frakes: We had the snake wrangler!
Chris: Snake wrangler was there.
John: Everyone’s looking very spiffy.
Frakes: Actually, this is walking distance from Dean’s house as I remember.
John: Mhm. That’s good.
Frakes: That’s all the information we’ll give on where Dean lives.
[All Laugh]
John: If you figure out where this house is…
Chris: Put it together, if you can figure it out.
John: I also love the - again, it’s one of the ones where the fun of the show is taking classic crime tropes and making fun of them. And the plumber/florist van is really - that the feds are in. Even in good movies it shows up.
Frakes: Let alone bad TV!
Dean: On the web, some people got confused and thought we were making a reference to the plumbers in Watergate. But we were not. We were making reference to the fact that in that era, very often -
John: In classic 70s television…
Dean: - the FBI would be hanging out in a van marked ‘Plumber.’
Chris: Now Dean, why don’t you talk a little bit about the actor here, who plays FBI Agent - Special Agent Taggert.
Dean: Well this is Rick Overton who’s done a few projects with me, including Eight Legged Freaks. He’s a phenomenally gifted comedian and he’s just terrific at improvisation, so he fit in perfectly with our cast.
John: So did Gerald, the guy who’s doing, um -
Chris: The guy, Gerald Downey, is wonderful.
John: - uh, Agent McSweeten. The two of them were fantastic. We really just rolled camera on that.
Frakes: We really did, and the stuff at the end, as is often the case, stuff that happens when the scene ends and before you say cut.
Chris: Well we ended up using -
Frakes: We used a lot of the stuff between Beth and Gerald.
John: And they wound up in Bank Shot and we’re actually developing a season 2 episode with them.
Chris: Yes.
Frakes: Oh, with more to do?
John: Yes.
Chris: We’re gonna put them on a date.
John: The idea - the thing in our head is because they wind up getting the benefits of our guys’ scams is they’re rising rapidly through the FBI. Because they keep getting handed these criminals on plates.
Frakes: handed - ‘This worked out great!’
Chris: We want to see them taking the oath in Congress. ‘I swear to uphold the Constitution’
Frakes: ‘I had no idea it was going to go this well!’
John: Young FBI agents are told, you know, ‘You’re no Taggert; slow down, my friend.’ Young FBI agents at the academy are, ‘You wanna be like Taggert or McSweeten when you get out?’
Dean: This is actually one of the first episodes where we establish her sniffing.
Chris: Yes.
John: She does. Which Beth established as a repeating character bit and it’s quite funny.
Frakes: She asks him if he has something to eat.
Chris: Yes.
Frakes: And he says pork rinds.
Chris: No, he says ‘I have a meat stick.’ That’s all improved between the two of them. My favorite was, ‘What do you do with rubber gloves?’ She was just reacting off of things she saw in there.
John: They’re really lovely together. And this is actually the fake van set that we built, and you shot through the side, if I remember correctly. It was 115 degrees.
Frakes: How small can we make this set?
John: Yep. And move a camera around in. There’s the infamous credit card -
[they repeat each other a lot for a bit here]
Frakes: Shoe swipe.
Chris: Those are real.
Frakes: Those have never been used before.
John: It’s called the MT600, and it’s… I have one on my desk.
Frakes: That’s stolen from Get Smart isn’t it?
John: No, no. That’s a real thing. That was one of the one’s where TNT’s like, ‘Do these things...?’
Frakes: ‘Is this real?’
John: Yeah, it’s on my desk!
Dean: This is where we had Elliot learning how to do photoshop.
Chris: That’s one of our little recurring themes in the show, is that we have Elliot teaching Hardison how to fight, and Hardison is teaching Elliot -
John: How to use computers.
Chris: - basic computer skills.
John: Now this is great actually because it’s one of the few times - one of the times too, that you establish that Beth really is kind of devastating when she gets up close to a guy like that. She can work it.
Chris: Some more improv here.
Dean: And again, two perfect improvers having some fun.
Frakes & Chris: Yep.
Frakes: ‘I gotcha.’
Chris: ‘I’m the coffee, you’re the cream.’ That’s him.
Frakes: The button’s an improv too. Boom.
John: “She smells like Jasmine.”
[All Laugh]
John: It’s great. Look at him. He’s so in love. Um, also, their aliases there are Thomas and Haggen, Agents Thomas and Haggen -
Chris: From The Godfather.
John: Which is from The Godfather. Aldis’s - we basically created a character beat where Aldis tends to create fake IDs around the movie we’re close to. And so that’s his little way of, in his head, keeping track of things.
Frakes: Chris, do you want to tell us how funny it is to reference Jersey Boys in this show?
Chris: [Laughs.] Oh, I knew this was going to come up. Oh, I’m ready for that.
Frakes: Well, we’re coming up on where we reference it for the first of three times. Jersey Boys-
Chris: That’s what we call a Nakamura. I can tell the story of Nakamura when we get there.
John: This is the hardest working office in show business. This scene didn’t exist. We came back and shot it later, right?
Frakes: Yep.
Dean: And many of you are going to notice he didn’t have eye glasses on in the hallway and he did in the room.
John: Oh stop with the continuity.
Dean: So we’ll just, We’ll just cop to it here.
Frakes: He put them on in the cut!
Chris: He had to look! He had to see them.
John: He had to put them on to read.
Dean: We’ll cop to it here and not have to read about it later.
John: By the way, this is - if you go online, you’ll find people actually made icons of this moment of Elliot banging the two things together. So that moment there of his anger -
Frakes, Chris, and Dean: That’s great.
John: - is uh - he does anger very well. And this - later on when he threatens to punch him is one of my favorite Chris beats.
Dean: Yes.
John: But this is great because it’s one of those, you know, we want to establish how we got the tapes -
Frakes: These two are great together.
John: Yeah - that’s it. That moment of, ‘ Oh, I’m gonna punch somebody.’ They are great. And it’s amazing - they’re great even when they’re not even in the same room.
Chris: I know! It makes me think, you know, it’s a good thing to think of for the future.
Frakes: Well they are in the same room - both these actors come to do each other’s off-camera.
John: Which is really sweet.
Frakes: Of course, it’s season one.
John: In season one, yeah.
[All Laugh]
John: Season three will be when we have the four other cast members. No, but, that’s uh - that corridor is just the swing corridor that we have, and that office is the office we use a million times. That wound of being a great little sequence that was crucial to the clue path.
Chris: Now, the Jersey Boys. I’ll tell you what the Jersey Boys is. There’s a term in comedy called a Nakamura. Do you know about this?
Frakes: I know the dance.
Chris: No. The Nakamura goes back to I believe The Dick Van Dyke Show, and the writers -
John: Depending on the origin, it is either Bob Newhart or Cheers. Bob Newhart’s the earliest reference.
Chris: Oh, alright. Well we’ve heard different versions. But essentially it goes like this. In a sitcom you have a table read, which is where the cast reads the script for the first time out loud and that’s where the writers get to gage which jokes work or not. And in this case, they had created a character called Mr. Nakamura, and in the writer’s room, every time someone said Mr. Nakamura when they were pitching it, everyone burst out laughing - it was hilarious. So they put not only a Mr. Nakamura joke in the beginning, but they put four more jokes in it throughout the episode. So then the table read comes up, and it’s the first time that someone says Nakamura, and it’s dead silence. And all the writers slunk down in their seats because they knew there’s four more coming coming up.
Frakes: And there’s four more coming! Oh, no!
John: There’s four more of these. And you can’t escape, and you can’t rewrite.
Frakes: You’re committed.
John: You’re committed. You’re gonna watch this fucker die.
Frakes: Yes you are.
Chris: So Jersey Boys is an example
Frakes: Is your Nakamura.
Chris: - where we had a call back to Jersey Boys later, and Jonathan said, ‘this jokes not gonna work.’ And I said, ‘No, we got a callback later!’
Frakes: No, I said it’s not gonna work, and I say it as one of the only straight musical comedy fans still living.
John: It is amazing.
Frakes: I say it having SEEN Jersey Boys. Understanding the reference -
Chris: Well it did make us laugh in the room, right?
John: Jersey Boys- it’s still one of my favorite jokes of the season. How good is Jersey Boys? Great. Just because of the anger and frustration he puts into that read. Just, not his type of thing at all. (Pause) Headband - I don’t think we do a lot of headband Parker.
Frakes: I like this though, I like this reference on her. Somewhat Muslim, and yet not.
John: Kind of, really a - not quite a hijab, but uh, kinda no. I don’t think we ever did the headband again.
Frakes: Really? I liked it. It was like she’s a felon - wrapped around her head.
Chris: Oh, I love this shot. Now this is a shot that was dictated by the location. We went to this location and saw this and wrote this scene to time down these -
John: To time the stairs, yeah.
Frakes: No you didn’t! The scene was written, and we timed the shot to -
Chris: No! I went down there! I wrote it with my -
John: No, no, he was on the set.
Frakes: The scene was written!
John: The scene was written, but we changed the dialogue to fit the length.
Chris: We changed the whole thing!
Frakes: Oh, we changed the location, yeah.
Chris: Yeah!
John: But actually, one time -
Frakes: The actors made it work.
Chris: No! I said you! I’m giving you the credit!
John: Really? Really? You’re gonna do that?
Chris: We timed it out!
Frakes: You’re really gonna do that with two writers in the room?
John: I will say it was fairly funny when we were writing a speech and I actually had Lauren Crasco with me - who is our production designer - a fantastic production designer - but we were trying to time a speech and I walked with her down that corridor to figure out how long the speech had to be and I was like, writers write - like, we measure walk and talks by foot length. Like, we actually see how long the set is and then figure it out.
Chris: Here’s our introduction.
Frakes: At least you’re a writer - Well here we go, here’s the shot that is the premise of the whole show.
Chris: This is it.
John: There you go. The promise of the premise right there.
Chris: Promise of the premise right there. And then, Nicole Sullivan.
Frakes: And also, what about the glasses?
John: Yeah the glasses are great. The bajita ved glasses. Um and this is one of the ones where we try to establish exactly the puzzle, you know - they’ve come into this thinking they have one relationship, and over the course of even the first two episodes… Uh, Snow Jobs supposed to be Homecoming, and there’s a moment in that episode where he goes, ‘You know me’ and she says, ‘I knew you two years ago.’ And this is one of the episodes where we deal with the fact that she’s realizing, the person she fell in love with a couple years ago, is not him anymore.
Chris: This is the funny version of that.
John: This is the funny version of that.
Dean: It’s also the first time when our actress, Gina Bellman, channeled the character of Jane that she played in Coupling.
John: She’s really doing Jane from Coupling.
Dean: Which was fabulous.
John: Also it’s funny because this entire sequence is Tim not getting the answer he wants.
Frakes: Yeah. Well as he says when he enters here.
John: Yeah. Just really frustrated.
Dean: And a great, great character spin where you find out that Elliot is a phenomenal cook.
Chris: Right. And we wrote it not just because - what would be a funny thing to undermine his tough guy image? - we made him the chef and then found out that he actually is a chef.
Frakes: Well not only that, Christian brings - I mean he’s got so many tools in his toolbox. The idea that not only is he a good cook - we know how good he is with knives, we know how good of a fighter he is. Who knew he was such a good comedian?
Chris: Yes!
John: Absolutely.
Chris: And, you know, I told him - Nicole Sullivan came up to me and said, ‘Boy, who’s that guy? Christian Kane? He’s funny.’ And I told him, and he was like, ‘Oh, that - for her to say that to me, makes me feel so good.’
Frakes: Look at him with the knife.
John: The little spins, the little - he integrates the physical humor really well -
Frakes: Here’s one of the great - This is all - this whole Soprano’s steal right here.
Dean: Look at that look, god, she just makes you laugh just from the look on her face.
Chris: Look at that staging! Who staged that? Boom.
[All Laugh]
John: There you go. And then the little way his face falls, yeah - the frustration.
Dean & Chris: That’s the line!
John: High-end!
[All Laugh]
John: Yeah - there you go. And that little bit where he does the how to kill people grip. His frustration. When Elliot’s angry, it’s just - it’s inherent. But, angry’s not right - frustrated.
Frakes: But you’re right. Tim in the monkey suit - it says volumes.
John: Yep. It tells you what the episode is. There’s very little work that needs to be done.
Frakes: These guys. They have one bug and it’s done in by a sprinkler?
Dean: One bug in the entire -
[All Laugh]
John: Yeah. Really awful. Just not good FBI agents. And that’s the thing - we really wanted to find, like runners - it amuses us that the two most incompetent FBI agents in the world will eventually rise to become the heads of the agency because of us.
Frakes: I remember the uh - in prep there was an incredible amount of dialogue whether the fact that Aldis’s character would have two different outfits: one for the DJ, and one to be the flower boy.
Chris: Did we have arguments about that?
Frakes: I don’t know that they were arguments.
John: Discussions. Endless discussions.
Frakes: The Edith Head glasses had to go.
Dean: The woman who plays the bridesmaid here is so fabulous. To get someone for such a small part like this to just knock it out of the park like she did.
John: And the girl who played the bride - my wife actually really liked her. She’s like, ‘She’s really sympathetic, you really get the frustration’ - I mean, I think everyone has hit that frustration with their mother in that situation. And these, by the way - big compliments to our costume designer. These are the perfect blend of hideous and believable. The bridesmaids dresses really are - they’re somehow - she took really beautifully designed dresses and made them ugly, subtly.
Chris: “Suck it up, Cindy,” there - makes me laugh every time I hear it. Also another adlib of hers.
Dean: And I just love again Parker not understanding the words that are coming out of her mouth.
Frakes: ‘I just said the truth. Is there something wrong with the truth? What I said is the truth.’
John: Yeah, the button here: ‘What are you like a buck fifty?’ She’s trying to make conversation! She doesn’t know what she’s doing.
Frakes: Marc Roskin with the safety pin in the mouth idea. Gotta give credit where credit’s due.
John: Really? A little bit? You’re gonna -?
Dean: One of my favorite ACDC takes of Tim’s is right here with the whole alcohol bit.
Frakes: Oh, you love this one.
Dean: This is one where I saw it in dailies and I just fell over.
Frakes: Yeah. And this bit of casting too.
John: Yeah, he’s terrific. He’s sweet. You totally like him and understand why this father would hate him. He’s just absolutely the sweetest dude you could imagine your daughter marrying.
Frakes: Right there!
Chris: That’s comic timing.
Frakes: You can’t teach that!
John: You can’t teach that. But I mean that was kinda the pleasure of going into the show too - finding out, like, everybody’s little comedy chops. Particularly this episode was always meant to be our big comedy episode, and it was great -
Frakes: Was this episode too funny?
John: It was a little too funny. What was great though, was it let everybody run and that way we knew a lot of their tools for future episodes.
Dean: And by the way, just looking at it again, kudos to our DP, Dave Connell. ‘Cause it’s just such a beautiful looking show.
John: Now when you, uh, as a director, Jonathan - when you go into a big location like this, like the house, I mean, what’s sort of your process when you get to a location like this, when you have to shoot in a location that’s big and complicated like this?
Frakes: We gotta figure out where we’re gonna do each scene. How many scenes we can get away with in one lighting direction. And then stage them accordingly. We do the same thing you do with the walk and talk. How much ‘space’ do we have to fill? With this much room do a half a page? Will it do a whole page? No. We can get a half a page done here if we move the camera. It’s one of those deals. And then you save the good rooms for the long scenes, like this. This scene had two or three beats in it, so. And it had two beautiful looks: the look of the bar and then a look out into the entrance of the house. So you use the best spaces for the longest scenes.
John: Cool.
Chris: And I mean, the give and take between being on-location and being on a soundstage, obviously you gotta deal with, you know, you’re in somebody else’s house. That’s a challenge.
Frakes: You’re in somebody else’s house, and you’ve got to schlep all that stuff in. But generally you look at it - no matter, whether you use it - Dean, you know, he knows - use an exterior or interior, it’s all a set. You look at it all as a big set. If you shoot in the Patriot, it’s still a set. Or if you’re shooting inside that little van. And then, how do you maximize the amount of space you’ve got?
Chris: This cast is never afraid to eat.
Dean: No. [Laughs.]
John: No, they eat. And that’s one of the recurring things, by the way, is sort of the way we made them become a family over the course of season, was showing them share meals on the cons and stuff, and the fact that they have to live with each other on the cons. That’s also a great burn by Gina there. Just as Tim - Tim brought a real -
Dean: Well, setting up that she has this different expectation.
John: And also -
Frakes: I used to play it all on Gina, but because it was TV.
John: No, you gotta go to Tim a little bit.
Frakes: Cooler minds thought we better cut to the guy who’s talking. Here’s an add. This scene was a wonderful add. Remember we came up short and you guys wrote this scene?
Chris: Nice little moment between these two guys.
Frakes: Two hander with these two again. Character beats.
John: Early in their friendship.
Dean: Again, though, since this episode was supposed to be earlier in the season, he’s referencing a character that we meet in Two Horse that’s actually supposed to play after this.
John: The girl he’s talking about here is actually Amy in Two Horse. For the continuity freaks out there. No, it’s a nice character bit and they don’t really like each other, but Aldis is trying to make an effort here, and Elliot’s not gonna go with him. No, it’s - you can definitely track the - I’ll never say they arrive at a friendship even by the end of the season, but you can track the relationship.
Chris: Oh, I don’t know, by Juror they seem like - they needle each other like brothers.
John: Right, well I was saying, they’re either like brotherly/rivalry rather than friendship friendship. I don’t think they like sharing a lot, but they enjoy being with each other.
Dean: One of our few little semi-sexy moments.
Chris: Yes.
Frakes: Well here’s a relationship we can try to develop.
John: Beth’s back we get a lot of work out of. And, by the way, this evolves in a really lovely way across the course of the season.
Chris: And it’s a testament to how beautiful she is that - while you keep watching the episode with her in this dress, she makes it work. You start to think this is a good looking dress.
John, Frakes, & Dean: Yes.
Frakes: Well that’s what his character says to her. He says, ‘Somehow you looking as great in this dress is gonna make her feel better.
John: It’s great. It’s a lovely little scene, and really sets up a lot of what come along later. Particularly when she teases him later because it helps establish that she’s not really so clueless as just ill-equipped. [pause] And this a clue path. And whenever you can hide a clue in a comedy beat, that’s always your friend.
Chris: Yes.
John: You know, you’re supposed to be just, ‘Oh, not now.’ Establishing that she’s a bitch, and there’s actually a big clue for the rest of the episode in there. And there’s Tim noticing it. Thank you, Tim in the deep background noticing the clue for later, and establishing that. Yeah, she’s really angry in this. [pause] And, uh, bug - this is bug porn.
Chris: Lotta bugs.
John: Lot of bugs yeah. And again -
Dean: And shoutout to Joe LoDuca here because we wanted this kind of Italian wedding music song here, and he just came up with such a winner.
John: Yeah. And I love the idea that, you know, that he’s able to surveille the whole house while doing his fake job. He’s integrated it that tightly.
Dean: He’s doing what the FBI can’t.
Frakes: Look at how this location paid off.
John: Yeah. It’s well worth - but it’s interesting where a lot of - when we finally dug up the footage, it was like we’d realized we missed that shot. We had everything of Tim but shooting that way, down - we ended up stealing that from -
Dean: It was from a much wider shot, but because we’re shooting digitally, we were able to blow that up into…
John: Exactly. Well we saw that we didn’t miss it -
Frakes: Oh, his point of view of them coming in.
John: We had it in the master. You didn’t miss it, we had it in the master. We realized you couldn’t tell those were the people he was looking at. So we were actually, because we’re shooting digitally, were able to blow it up be some ungodly amount.
Dean: And then it worked perfect.
Chris: And one of our costume people - one of the jokes there was that Nicole Sullivan’s character is the stepmother of the bride, and yet she’s wearing white because she wants it to be all about her.
John: Which apparently I didn’t know, but amongst women is kind of like stabbing the Pope.
Chris: Right.
John: I was just unaware that wearing white at a wedding…
Dean: Now our guest star is phenomenal here in this scene.
John: Yeah. She melts down. And Gina does resentment very well here. It’s really, you know, you realize that Sophie…
Frakes: The show stops so they can both dish men, basically.
John: Yeah. Exactly.
Chris: It’s something a little bit different.
John: Also this is interesting because the tone of the scene was originally much more sympathetic and when Gina came to me she was like, ‘You know, I just think Sophie’s a little more wrapped up in herself here.’ Very few actors are willing to make themselves themselves unlikable.
Frakes: Willing to make the - Exactly!
Chris: She wants to be - she wanted to play selfish. And, you know, that’s kind of like how in Coupling she played her comedic character.
John: Right. Well that’s the difference between British sitcom and American sitcom. It’s the British sitcom is a lot more about the unlikable character and how you still have affection.
Dean: Tim’s reaction here is priceless.
Frakes: Oh, it’s just great. This is great. She forgets that he can hear everything she’s saying.
John: Exactly, it’s all over the headphones.
Frakes: ‘And, by the way, here’s the tissues. I know this was supposed to be your scene, and I just took it.’
Chris: And now she felt sad again.
John: Exactly.
Dean: A wonderful use of the 360 in this scene.
John: I love the use of the 360. Not excessive, might I add.
Dean: OK. Point taken.
Frakes: Oooh. Nice one Sentori.
John: Oh this is one of my favorite flashbacks! It’s just: ‘You think he’ll recognize you?’ ‘Oh yeah, he’ll recognize me.’ Great work by the visual effects guys to get us the burning barn.
Frakes: Wait a minute. That was a Dean Devlin unit shooting that whole scene.
John: Yeah.
Chris: What’s in the background? Fire. It’s hell. That was the note.
Dean: Digital fire...
John: Everything is burning!
Frakes: We’ll put it in in post.
John: And yeah - that’s what we did. We wound up putting everything in in post.
Frakes: Too much to take with the little binoculars? I don’t think so.
[All Laugh]
John: You know what, Frakes? You can never have too much comedy.
Chris: Now a little funny thing here was that they kept staying out too long, and Jonathan kept yelling, ‘Get back in the van!’
Frakes: “Get back in the van!”
Chris: And that became kind of the running joke of the show.
John: Jonathan Frakes directing is always - it’s basically just - occasionally actors talk between him yelling at people.
[All Laugh]
John: It really is! Occasionally you allow the yelling to be interrupted by acting.
Chris: Bursting into song - it’s - you get a lot.
John: It’s a very vibrant set.
Dean: My favorite line of the episode.
John: ‘The Cakemaker of Kiev could kick all our asses.’
[All Laugh]
John: We actually had in the writers room a long list of sissy occupations. The Poet of Prague, The Songmaker of….
Chris: Cakemaker was really good.
John: Yeah. The Cakemaker really landed it. Because you know why? K sounds. And when you say, by the way -
Frakes: Nakamura?
John: Two binoculars, too funny? Nobody ever turned off a TV show for being too funny. Nobody in the history of television.
Chris: No. Never.
Frakes: No. That was my point when certain people thought this episode was too funny.
Chris: No. Never. No one’s ever -
Frakes: First thing I said to Donny was: ‘Is there such a thing?’
Chris: No. No one ever stopped watching a show because it unexpectedly made them laugh out loud.
[All Laugh]
Chris: I defy anyone to show me that.
John: OK. Once during that Holocaust miniseries. I have to admit, I thought it may be in poor taste and I should turn it off.
Dean: Again, kudos to our production designer for this set.
John: This is on the set. We have moved from in the backyard to on our set with the entirely inbuilt tent.
Frakes: Never big enough soundstage. Inside a tent. AND kudos to the writers for padding this scene out so we could add the front end in post with ADR with Tim.
John: But this is -
Chris: He had some great fun with this.
Dean: This completely feels like exterior. Great job by our -
John: Yeah. Especially that glow behind her where you feel like the light is coming from a different source. It’s really lovely. They did a great job. But yeah, this was another - this scene, both Chris and I’s wives were like, ‘Who wrote this scene about how hard marriage is?’ ‘Uh the other guy did!’
‘Must have been the other guy!’
Chris: ‘Oh no - certainly not me!’
John: “No - I had nothing to do with that.’
Chris: That was really my bread and butter - martial stuff on King of Queens. That was really going back to the old toolbox.
John: Well you were on King of Queens for like, years. So really the resentful, angry marriage you were able to pull out of the toolbox.
Chris: I love these two - their annoyance too.
Frakes: Yeah. Boom.
Chris: This is very brother-sister, too.
Frakes: ‘Yeah I get that, watch this!’
Dean: The Emeril line is great here.
All: “Bam!”
[All Laugh]
John: So angry. This again - it’s - when you’re doing a TV show and you have an ensemble, you’re trying to find the pairings that work. And unlike a lot of ensemble show with a lead and the sidekicks who go and question witnesses and you never hear from them again, we’re an actual five-hander so we had to develop all of these goddamn relationships.
Frakes: Here she is. Bing. Zoom. Zap. Zoom.
Chris: This is a great - this is a beautiful shot. This is a very iconic image from the show, too.
Dean: She checks her watch. That’s what I like.
John: Yeah - she’s a little slow. She did it in 3 seconds; that’s slow.
Chris: That’s a beautiful shot.
Frakes: That’s in a lot of the trailers, this part.
John & Chris: Yeah.
John: Well it’s the costume, plus it’s the outfit. She’s a little annoyed. She’s off her game today. Dan Lauria working hard. Yeah that’s great.
Frakes: What a pro, lordy.
John: This is a great cast in this one.
Frakes: Is he in Independence Day? Dan Lauria?
Dean & John: He is in Independence Day.
John: Cuz that was on - that opened - that was on the other night.
Dean: That’s right. Before our show. It was all Dean Devlin all night long.
John: Here’s the big turn. There’s Gina, just, really upset.
Dean: She’s such an amazing actor. She just -
John: He laughs, he makes marriage sound not so horrible.
Dean: She can turn from comedy to drama on a dime. So few can do that.
Frakes: She plays the instrument well.
Dean: And I love this little connection between the two of them here. The promise that at some point it may get better.
John: Yeah, I mean that’s the thing - we really had -
Frakes: Yeah, well, it was also teed up nicely in that thing inside the house. Where he pretended or he really didn’t know what she was talking about. Here he’s saying I did know what you were talking about.
John: And that’s - we also - you’re trying to establish - there’s a very funky bit of math with - OK, so he had a son, but he was married, they were kind of hot for each other. What exactly - was he cheating on her? We spent like the first three or four episodes defining that relationship. And him sort of having to say, you know, this is a damaged dude, he’s not gonna pop back on the horse right away. And this screening room is supposed to be a winery originally. This is when you shoot on location -
Chris: Yeah. It was supposed to a wine cellar.
Frakes: It was gonna be a wine cellar, not a winery. Which she was going to mount herself on top of the roof, remember?
Chris: Right?
Frakes: Suspend herself above the scene.
John: Yes, like, uh, one does.
Chris: You take - you see what one has on the location and.
John: As one does! You press your feet and hands against the sides of the walls.
Chris: Kind of like in Stork.
Frakes: The phone call! What if that scene in the wine cellar takes place in a screening room. Why’s that? There is no wine cellar on the set.
John: There is no wine cellar.
Chris: That’s what you learn in season one of your TV show.
John: Yeah. That maybe, sometimes, big houses don’t have wine cellars.
Frakes: Sometimes you write to the location.
John: Yeah, you write to locations. And that works fine.
Frakes: I called Dave from Africa and said, ‘Can we move that to a Maasai village?’ ‘Why?’ ‘We’ve got a Maasai Village. Can we move it? Is that OK?
Chris: ‘I’m actually here right now.’
Frakes: ‘I’m standing here.’ Remember that dialogue?
Chris: ‘I’ve got cameras on the truck. Just saying.’
John: ‘As a matter of fact, I’m about to call action, so I’m just checking now, whether it’s OK we shoot this.’
Frakes: ‘Just checking it’s OK with you.’
[Pause]
John: Searching. Looking for it. Yeah. And, uh, the entrance - it was tricky cuz we got in the room and suddenly realized: where the hell do we hide her? There’s no actual place to put her. And then, you know, almost a classic 1930’s mystery beat here
Chris: Oh, that’s great.
Frakes: That. The toes was a good call.
John: Helps establish - And then her smooshed up against the glass - always amusing. That’s a great - that scene popped up in a bunch of trailers too.
Frakes: Looks like A Clockwork Orange. Steal from everything.
John: Really. Great, uh...you’re saying as a director…
Frakes: You steal from everything.
Dean: Homage. Homage.
All: Homage.
Chris: This actor - Andrew Divoff. [Note: Chris misremembers/pronounces it as Davinoff]
Dean: Terrific villain.
Chris: Fantastic.
John: Very subtle.
Frakes: He speaks SIX languages, this guy.
John: Yep.
Chris: I love this too.
Frakes: Well Beth is unafraid. She really is unafraid.
John: She will really do anything. Well yeah -
Frakes: Well, all these actors actually will do anything you ask them to do.
John: Yep. No, it was a very collegiate - I mean, again, we shot the pilot in Chicago and I think it really made a difference, because they were kind of on their own, they were away from their support systems. The show itself was particularly unlike anything they’d ever done - it’s not template-y, it’s not a hospital show or a lawyer show, so they really had to really on each other. And there’s a fair amount of trust built up. [Pause] Wow, that dress is awful. That’s really magnificent. Yeah, they really had a lot of trust built up from being sort of on their own with these crazy producers and writers who had them hanging of 40-story buildings, you know, in Chicago.
Dean: Here’s him getting the clue.
Chris: This is him putting it all together.
Frakes: This is the police bypass effect on the clue.
John: And that’s really, you know, again.
Frakes: It’s become a signature look.
John: It IS a signature and really a part of it is - a lot of times we’ll write the episode all the way through, figuring out what the solution is, and then go back and plant the scenes we’re going to flash back to later.
Chris: And it’s interesting John, because you talked before about this being our farce with guns and one of the things that coming from a comedy background, that I learned looking at heist shows and farces is that they do share similar traits. Which is: the end of a farce and the end of a heist take place in real time, generally, and should have ever escalating complications involving -
John: And revelations.
Chris: And revelations. And people walking into doors where they’re not supposed to be. And that’s what this - that’s how this plays out from this point on.
John: That’s also great, kudos to the set designer for putting the sparkles on the cell phone.
Frakes: Props, props.
Dean: This particular flashback - when the effects artist first gave it back to us, he had the man’s head entirely in flames, and we went: ‘You know, I don’t think we can have that on television.’
John: Actually on fire.
Dean: It was actually on fire in that shot. Yeah. So we just put the smoke on and took the burning face off.
Frakes: Now this actor - stuntman, with the scar on his face is the one who trained Christian.
John: He trained Christian. He’s, uh, Anthony -
Frakes: Davin - his name’s Davinoff, isn’t it?
John: No, it’s uh Long - oh, shoot. You can find it the web, really easily. [Transcriber note: the actor is Anthony De Longis]. He was the swordmaster on Highlander, he trained Harrison Ford to use his whip for Indiana Jones; he doubled some of the whip work. He’s one of the best fight guys on the planet.
Dean: And this is probably our most complicated fight.
John: Yes.
Dean: And we’ve had longer fights. And maybe more brutal fights. But as far as all the moves that had to be memorized this was our most complicated.
Frakes: The other thing is about Christian is he’s a quick study, and he works hard, and he’s not afraid to rehearse it ‘til it’s right. A lot of actors lose interest in doing their own stunts.
Chris: Now John, you wanna take us through this fight? Because this is really one of our…
John: Yeah, this is great. What’s great is - it’s crucially important during the fights to set up your axis of the fight. And so really you’ve pulled out both of those guys and you know this is gonna be your axis. So if you watch, all the action always moves back and forth along one line, and that’s - it’s brutally important during fights to track geography.
Dean: Here’s one of my favorite cuts, though, in the show. Knife to the throat. Gun to the throat. It’s such a -
John: It’s really sweet.
Frakes: Well it was shot as one fight, remember? We shot it and then broke the fight up and the fight works now as three fights instead of one.
Chris: Do you remember - how long did it take?
Frakes: We did a half day of shooting on that.
Chris: Half day on the fight?
Frakes: We started the fight, and we shot the principles and we left as usual [John talks over the rest of his comment].
John: The guys rehearsed the crap out of it.
Frakes: They rehearsed two or three days straight before we got ‘em on.
John: Because that sort of knife work, by the way, we’re not adding, we’re not juicing that foley [relating to or concerned with the addition of recorded sound effects after the shooting of a film] a lot; it’s not like we’re getting close with the blocking. Chris is blocking him. That’s a full on sword fight, except Chris happens to have a pot in his hand. And also the fact that -
Frakes: Also, this 45 degree shot would work better here, I mean not that it wouldn’t anywhere else, but it’s a perfect example of how…
John: Do we usually do 90 or 45 on these fights?
Dean: Uh, 90.
John: We usually do 90. We did 45 here. And it looks great. And, yeah, this is a brutal fight. And it’s always tough because we established -
Frakes: It’s brutal, it’s close quarters, it’s not a set that we were allowed to destroy because it was a practical house.
Chris: I know! This is somebody’s kitchen, folks.
Frakes: It also helps that Christian trusted that other guy.
John: Yeah. A lot. Because even with the fake knives, you get hurt bad. I mean those knives are designed - will not utterly collapse. I’ve seen guys get hurt. Also, this is a very Jackie Chan oriented fight really - the kitchen, using the whisks, using the pots, using the found objects.
Frakes: Here’s, we had to cobble together - This was a set, we had another piece that was the outside of the house -
John & Dean: At another location.
Frakes: We had the exterior of the house.
John: We - the two shots jumped from shot to shot actually - that ‘s now an entirely different location, this reverse.
Chris: Yeah, and it came out great.
Dean: But by having that little bit of doorway of the tent, it tied it together.
John: It helps sell it.
Chris: Here’s some great ad libs here.
John: I do kind of miss the fact that we gave the bridesmaid an arc in the original version of the script, we just didn’t think we would have time for her. But she actually - cuz if you notice she’s called fat in the dress, her speech gets interrupted -
Chris: She had a win at the end.
Frakes: And then Aldis gives her some props at the end, and says, ‘By the way - that dress? You’re working it.’
John: Yeah, but no - we actually had a character profile.
Chris: I love this shot right here. This is one of my favorite shots - of the crime lord.
Frakes: I had to dig and dig and dig to find that - I remembered it from the dailies.
John: Yeah, it’s just great, because, you know what? It’s also great because when you have really good actors doing your day player stuff, they’re not absent; they’re very present in the moment and that’s exactly the right moment for them to give.
Frakes: Gives you a place to go.
Dean: Yeah, I love that he doesn’t use the rolling pin - he uses the mushroom caps.
John & Chris: He uses the mushroom caps!
Frakes: Well, it tees up this wonderful line at the end, the tail end.
John: It burns, the it burns callback. And then he just beats him to unconsciousness with a tray.
Chris: We want everything to pay off.
Dean: It’s the lemon juice.
Frakes: It’s the lemon juice, but also the -
John & Chris: ‘Did you just kill a guy with an appetizer?’
John: I forgot where that came from. That was a room pitch. That was actually, uh -
Chris: No! That was in the draft.
John: No, no, but I mean in the room.
Dean: You had it in the room.
John: Cuz it was - ‘Did you just kill a guy…?’ ‘Cause we were trying to come up with - What’s the proper reaction to walking into that room?
Frakes: Here it is.
John: This is a great -
Dean: A great Aldis reaction.
John: And by the way, classic comedy shot. Comedy works in the two shot.
Frakes: So I was told.
John: Yep. There you go.
Chris: Look at that.
John: Great take.
Chris: Here’s one of our many, many sacks of money. We really love gym bags full of money on this show.
John: And it’s hard because on the show - as you develop season 2, you realize that yes, when you do complicated financial scams, with stuff happening with stocks off screen, it’s good, but it’s not as satisfying as: there’s a sack full of money. Who’s got it? How do we get it? Yeah, you really want a physical manifestation.
Frakes: I saw the pyramid of money in Dark Knight. I finally watched Dark Knight.
John: See? Pyramid of money.
Chris: This is - Jonathan this is just a beautiful one-shot.
Frakes: Well this is, you know, here we go. This is props to Gary Camp. This is a huge, beautiful steadicam shot.
Dean: The whole scene, really, in one shot.
Chris: In one shot.
Dean: Covering all kinds of different things.
John: Did they just pop focus back to her for a second? Yes they did. Very, very good work. ‘Excuse me, pardon me!’
Dean: And now you come all the way around.
Frakes: Yep. This is well staged.
John: You know what? I never noticed this is a one-shot isn’t it? This entire sequence.
Chris: Yeah, this is all one shot.
Dean: It’s a beautiful shot.
John: It’s very Scorsese of you, my friend. That was.
Frakes: That’s, uh, stolen, from the front end of Goodfellas. Not Goodfellas. Where did they go into that club?
All: Yeah. Goodfellas.
Chris: Goodfellas is a long…
Dean: And then we call all the way around again.
John: So when you’re looking up to directing techniques, is that - you just steal?
Frakes: Steal from Spielberg. Steal from Scorsese.
John: Really, that’s it? There’s not like a long, big book of the Frakes technique?
Frakes: No. My technique is: Shoot fast. Make the schedule.
John: [Laughs] Shoot the show.
Frakes: Shoot the show. Make sure you make your story points.
Chris: I love that look.
John: We shot this in six and a half days?
Frakes: Yes. We shot this is six and a half days!
John: That’s very impressive.
Chris: Six and a half is actually less than normal.
Frakes: How about it, Dean?
Dean: The only other show other than mine to go under seven.
Frakes: Never to be done again!
John: Did we never go…? It was yours at six and his at six and a half?
Frakes: He did his at six.
Dean: Yep. And this was six and a half. Everything else was done at seven and then one went seven and a half.
John: I love Nicole toddling away with that luggage. So uncomfortably running away in those heels.
Frakes: Not afraid to use the shoes.
John: Note Nate drinking. Having a little drink. Taking the edge off. It’s been a long day.
Frakes: He is a priest.
Dean: In every episode, somewhere you’ll find that little…
Frakes: We slowed that down a bit.
Dean: Yeah.
John: Yeah, that did look a little… Well, we’re watching on a 40-foot screen; you’re not going to notice that at home, but you know. (Pause) This is one of those times where, again, we use this intermittently in the series - where Nate, one of his plan H’s he hasn’t told -
Frakes: My kid loves that line. ‘Wait for it.’
Chris: ‘Wait for it.’
Frakes: That’s something that should that can be called back. Do we use it a couple times?
John: No.
Chris: Yeah, I thought we were going to.
Dean: We have it in the pilot.
John: We have it in the pilot. We have it here. I mean, it was one of those things-
Dean: Oh! And we have it in the season finale.
John: In the season finale.
Frakes: My kid uses that line. It’s part of his, uh, slang.
John: His repertoire.
Frakes: Yeah.
John: ‘Wait for it.’
Frakes: ‘Wait for it.’
John: Uh, yeah, I mean, he. It’s interesting because a lot of times we were trying to find the balance of how much you needed the crew to know and how much you needed the audience to understand, and figuring out when you did the exposition. Because there are times when we do these sort of - there’s like five flashbacks here. You know, there is moments where an audience could legitimately get lost in understanding what the con was. (Pause) And that’s on set - that shot -
Frakes: Yeah, no. That’s shot is. We pick up against the door.
John: Yep. It’s the magic of filmmaking. And she’s so uncomfortable in that dress, can’t wait to get out.
Frakes: She’s so working that dress, still.
John: Yeah, she does look gorgeous. And yeah, a little celebratory scotch for Nate there.
Dean: And then a callback to -
Frakes: The callback to the good chef.
John: Yeah. There you go.
Dean: And, the lemon juice.
John: Yeah. And Chris throws it away. I mean, really -
Frakes: Both of them fighting for the button, though.
[All Laugh]
John: Yeah, I know it’s -
Chris: Yeah, it’s like working with [Bob] Newhart.
John: Yeah - both of them fighting for the button. Like which one of us is going to get the last shot, the last line in the scene.
Frakes: This scene shot over by the church when you guys were shooting -
John: Miracle Job.
Chris: Miracle Job.
John: So we threw up the outside of the tent which you never see in the rest of the episode, and then put this together.
Dean: It was an important scene to have, because one of the things we’ve learned, is it’s not enough for the villain to lose, you gotta have the gloat.
John: The gloat. It’s become shorthand in the writer’s room. It’s like, alright - and now, the gloat.
Dean: You need the moment where Tim gets to enjoy the fact that he just took down the bad guy.
John: Or has let the bad guy… See, wait, this is what’s unusual - the bad guy doesn’t know that he’s been taken down until we’re offscreen. Really, usually -
Dean: Although he gives a look at the end, like something doesn’t smell right.
John: A big part, even more satisfying than the gloat, is the ‘LEVERAGE!’ moment when the guy sort of screams to the sky and the horrible realization -
Frakes: ‘I hate those guys!’
John: You know what?
Dean: ‘And I would have gotten away with it if not for those crazy kids!’
Chris: That’s a Scooby Doo line.
John: You know what really does a great one? Is in Juror. Who’s the - who was in Juror? The girl.
Chris: Oh, um, Lauren Holly!
John: Lauren Holly does a great moment of that.
Frakes: She’s so pissed off that she got taken.
John: Yeah, it’s, uh…
Dean: There’s that look, right there. Something’s not right.
John: There’s something over that railroad track.
Frakes: Luckily we’ve got the cigar to button this scene with.
Dean: The bookend.
Frakes: Happy ending.
John: Yep. Happy ending. The same images from the opening.
Dean: I really love this ending.
John: Yeah. It’s a sweet ending. They allow themselves to be a family because they’re rewarding the family.
Dean: And getting invested in not just the money.
Frakes: It’s hard to miss with Italian food.
Chris: It really is. People, characters sitting around the table.
Frakes: And LoDuca recalls the song back here.
John: Yep. And the kid getting on Parker’s lap. It’s funny because Beth has a really great son, Pilot, he’s a really sweet kid, and she’s really great with kids, and it was hard for her to hide the fact that she was good with kids.
Chris: Yeah, I mean you kind of see that there. She doesn’t really play awkard.
Frakes: Cassandra Bernard, making her second scene. (Pause) And the handheld TV work.
John: And by the way, thank you.
Frakes: Shot outside the Glendale Studios.
John: And by the way, thank you, thank you internet news for allowing us to portray the arrest of the bad guys on any medium we care to use. Anything we wanna use, we got.
Chris: Boy, we do have a lot of reveals in this one.
John: This was a big one.
Chris: This is a lot of reveals.
John: Cuz remember the original reveal - this reveal was right outside the van. We did the walk away because we didn’t originally in the script have the restaurant scene. The restaurant scene we came up with later to lock it in. Here’s Chris working the guns for the fans.
Chris: Working the guns.
John: A little something for the ladies there.
Chris: He’s shirtless.
Frakes: ‘And don’t forget I don’t just do hors d'oeuvres.’ I do family style as well.
John: Working the gun show here.
Dean: And one of the few shows where we kind of went with emotional music at the end instead of the fun, jazzy music. Which I thought was very nice.
John: It was very sweet.
Frakes: Dean Devlin, taking that nice credit.
John: There you go.
Dean: Jonathan, thank you so much for being part of our show.
Frakes: My pleasure.
John: We really appreciate it.
Chris: As fun as this episode was to watch -
Frakes: It was too funny.
Chris: - it was even more fun to make thanks to you.
John: Yes, it’s a real pleasure to have you on the show.
Chris: I only wish the audience could have been there with us.
Frakes: You are too nice by half.
John: Precisely half. It’s almost the right amount of nice, actually. Gentlemen if there’s something you want to say during the credits, you know, we can wrap it up and.
Frakes: Thank you, and good night.
[All Laugh]
Dean: Well done.
Chris: God Bless America.
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