#personally I'm thinking of Ayin

[leonawriter]

He's an unreliable narrator to YOU. I, personally, believe in him wholeheartedly. I know he can make it through this. I'm cheering him on.

[throughpatchesofviolet]

Revisited Lobotomy Corporation, and now I'm crying.

[nmoroder]

Happy birthday, ProjectMoon! The askblog I'm a part of is running a mirror identity event where participants are randomly assigned a faction and the author depicts them in the said faction. As currently my askblog role in that project is Ayin, he's the one to take part.

Personally I think it's a very fitting place for him, given that he's the Sephirah of Architecture Team. There's also a good point in Adam being the Architector in this mirror universe, like an E.G.O or something, but that's a thought for the future.

[agender-witchery]

It hurts

After talking with people in discord for the week that this has been going on, I think my feelings on the Project Moon situation are just. Like, this was a company I felt was "safe". Obviously corporations are not your friends, but this was a studio that consistently pushed out games with progressive - and at times even radical - messaging. This was a studio that has consistently written solid characters with gender as an absolute afterthought. Emma is a boy! Harold is a girl! That's how little gender matters, which, ironically, is something that matters.

I can't think of another franchise I've engaged with that just... writes women as people. I've heard George R.R. Martin is like that, but I never engaged with the TV series that introduced the US to the concept of filler or the book series it was based on. I'm gonna gloss over Lobotomy Corporation a bit here because the story only has 13 characters, but 12 of them return for Library of Ruina. In Ruina you have Binah, Angela, Nikolai, and Elena as assertive women that take control of the situations they're in. You have passive uwu smol beans like Hod and Eileen! You have characters who are war criminals and that's not a mark of a villain, that's just a part of their backstory! Some of the women here have just Done Crimes! One of the women IS a crime! And men are treated the same! There are characters with traumas and behavioral disorders who act like real people would! Lesti saw the aftermath of Love Town and started talking about food! Beef intestine no less! Philip saw his colleagues get murdered and physically manifested a mental breakdown! Xiao saw her husband get murdered and physically manifested literal burning rage!

All of the writing has been good! All of it! And it has consistently written women in a way that is flat out rare, even in 2023. And Limbus has been doing the same! Outis is assertive! Ryoshu is assertive! Hermann is assertive! Don is an idiot and Faust refuses to talk half the time! Heathcliff is assertive! Meursault is assertive! Gubo is assertive! Hong Lu is an idiot and Sinclair is/was a pathetic sop! Across the board, the character writing is just GOOD. As Lobotomy Corporation progresses, Ayin's shitty behavior becomes more and more apparent! And that all culminates with Angela being tossed aside like garbage once she's no longer useful to him, as you hear her desperate wishes to just be seen!

All of that, or at least most of that, was Kim Ji-hoon. But Kim Ji-hoon is also the person who hastily fired VellMori at 11 PM, over the phone, while he was out of office in Japan, because some incels accused his company of being sympathetic to feminists in 2023.

And it fuckin hurts that the source of those stories, the stories that I just spent three paragraphs praising, the stories that are so important to me, could turn heel in half a second like that. As if he was writing completely different stories than the ones I've been reading. And I hate that? I hate that. Because there isn't a replacement! I don't get Grandma War Crimes and Dumbass Justice Enactor in other stories! Like, maybe some will come close, maybe some will have the same exact character somewhere, but never all of it together. Never written as amazingly as the City is.

So it hurts. And the silence is loud.

[this-is-z-art-blog]

any good recommend for Jewish fashion for Sam?

Howdy, I've been letting this one percolate for a bit, hence the delay. It's an interesting question! Short answer is unfortunately no, I don't have a specific 'Jewish fashion' trend or subculture to recommend.

Longer answer, Jewish folks live in dozens of countries and we've been around for thousands of years. While Torah and halacha (Jewish law) covers many aspects of day-to-day living as well as holidays and more special occasions, it doesn't say a lot about how to dress for the common person (vs how it's pretty specific about holy day garb for cohanim). In Orthodox circles it's a matter of religious and cultural significance to dress modestly (though as with most Jewish laws and customs, the definitions of these things vary community to community) and while there's exceptions (Hasidics notably), most Jewish communities dress largely in line with the custom of where they're living (eg Orthodox women in the US typically wear long sleeves and full skirts, but in a Western style).

That said, Sam and her family don't seem to be Orthodox, and could be interpreted easily as Conservative or Reform (to be clear, the Jewish Conservative denomination has nothing to do with political conservatism, and tends towards progressive and egalitarian ideals; I grew up in a conservative synagogue and girls read torah, led services, etc), so even a lot of distinctive Jewish dress I could talk about isn't super relevant to her because those movements don't have a lot of the same customs around clothing.

Jewelry is more common as an expression of Jewish identity and culture than specific clothing, especially featuring a Star of David/Magen David, hamsa, ayin hara, or an emblem of a torah or mezzuzah, on necklaces, bracelets, and earrings, in a variety of styles from intricately ornamented to quite simple. And even that is a matter of personal preference by and large; one person might wear a magen david necklace every day, another only on special occasions or when they feel like it, another never, and none of those is 'more' or 'less' Jewish. That said, I do think Sam would be interested in that kind of Jewish visibility, which is part of why I often depict her with a Star of David charm on her necklace.

Here's a little intro on myjewishlearning that expands on some of what I've talked about here, and is also a decent site for poking around in general. That said I know doing research can be daunting, it's hard to know what's fact vs custom vs opinion, what the context of information is, what questions to even be asking, and also that it's often just more fun and engaging to ask questions directly. I'm not always fast but my askbox and messages are open!

[northwest-cryptid]

I think honestly, disturbing and dark media has the same potential quality to express itself as art as much as anything else.

Yes even non typical genres.

There are a few examples that really stand out to me, one of which is Metamorphosis/Emergence. Is it dark? Absolutely. Is it entertaining? Well I'd argue it is, I continued to read it wanting to learn about what would happen to these characters. Is it art? In a literal sense obviously yes, but I mean it is a story that talks about social issues and culture. In that regard as well, yes it absolutely is art.

I don't care if that story is being told as an erotic manga or whatever, it's a story being told. It's still talking about societal issues, cultural issues, and the troubles that being poor can bring. We're being shown someone at their absolute worst, their lowest point; who's desperately trying to claw their way out.

It's dark, it's disturbing, but it does make me feel things. Exclusively bad things sure, but I'm being moved in some way. Do emotions such as anger, disgust, anguish, despair, and sadness really mean less than feelings of happiness and joy? Should we not be permitted to feel those things through art as well?

Another really good example is Lobotomy Corporation. I cannot express how actually dark the game is. You quickly learn that the horror of the game doesn't come from the monsters, but from the very human part of the facility. The horror comes from your actions, from the actions of those around you. How at times you can almost understand them, how you can almost sympathize. Because you so badly wish these people could be free of the hell they're in, and because you understand that you are perpetuating it. However the best part is that all of that is just surface level stuff. When you really dive into it, the lore isn't shy about just how fucked up this place is, how fucked up the people working here are; how fucked up Ayin actually is.

Lob Corp does horror so well because it almost reaches the level of cosmic horror where there's nothing you can do. You just have to get through it, you can't stop it from happening but maybe it won't be as bad of you're in control. You can make excuses, you can tell yourself something was necessary because it distances you from feeling like maybe you're starting to understand Ayin.

There's so much that I love about the way the story is set up, it's all very direct and very fucked up on the surface; and it only gets worse the more you understand.

I think personally if we don't give dark and disturbing media the same potential to be considered deep philosophical art the same way we see other genres, we're doing ourselves a rather huge disservice.

[ahmedmootaz]

Headcanon time! All of the music you hear in Lobotomy Corporation? They are all actually playing in-universe for the manager and are used as audio cues to show how well or more accurately how fucked the day is going. The trumpets aka warnings were specially made by Adam to celebrate the abnormalities being freed in the facility. The songs later on got used by Ayin and the others as a shorthand for alarms over time since Adam would blast it over any other breach alarm music or sounds they'd make.

Dear Anonymous,

Pretty nice headcanon you've got there! I'm actually inclined to agree that the music in LC is also playing in-universe. I don't know who created it, although I am willing to wager, as you said, that the A3 had a hand in it somehow...maybe they influenced Ayin to add the tracks when he was putting the finishing touches on the Seed of Light Script.

And, since I know people will ask, I also think the Milli tracks might actually play in-universe...but only for the people directly affected by the Distortions and those fighting them. Those who aren't personally or emotionally invested in the fight likely don't hear anything unless Carmen has a pair of stereo speakers that she has to use every time she manages to get a big Distortion...which would mean that for Distortions that don't have specific Milli songs, then Carmen is desperately searching for the speakers that Ayin probably hid somewhere so she can't use them. By the time she finds out he hid them in the sink and filled them with water and she manages to dry them, the fight is over. Sorry, Hindley, you were unlucky.

Thank you for the very humorous ask, Anon! Until next time, be well, take care, and see ya'.

[lu-is-not-ok]

do you think that what EGO someone manifests is based on what caused them to reach the crossroads of Distortion and Manifestation? because distortions are pretty clearly based at least a little around that given... Phillip, but I'm not familiar enough with Xiao's story to make a conclusion about that.

Soooo I know you've only asked about like, the form a manifested E.G.O takes and what might affect it, but uh, I really want to just ramble about everything we know thus far about Distortions and Manifested/Effloresced E.G.O, so I hope you don't mind me hijacking your over a month old ask for that.

Alright? Alright. Under cut because I want to pop off. Oh, also, I'm going to spoil the fuck out of Lobotomy Corporation, Wonderlab, Library of Ruina, and Leviathan. Be warned.

Let's start from the basics. What causes one to Distort and/or Manifest E.G.O?

If you've gone through LobCorp and/or Ruina, your answer is most likely going to be the Light, the final product of Carmen and Ayin's research that was released during the White Nights and Dark Days, and which currently houses the essence of both of them. However, I don't think that's the full picture.

First of all, and probably most importantly, there have been cases of both E.G.O Manifestations and Distortions before the White Nights and Dark Days, that being Kali's E.G.O, and the Bloodfiend lineages.

Now, I have not read Distortion Detective yet, so all of my sources on this are second-hand, but from my understanding Bloodfiends are a kind of Distortion that has existed far before LobCorp took place. The process in which one joins this lineage is by "recieving blood from a certain mansion", apparently implied to belonging to an Abnormality called Nosferatu.

But wait, those who have played LobCorp might be asking, aren't Abnormalities created by L Corp? How can Abnormalities exist before the events of LobCorp?

Here, allow me to talk about Cogito.

For those who don't know, Cogito was the Singularity of L Corp. A substance that, upon being injected into a person, would materialize concepts and ideas from that person's mind into the form of Abnormalities. This process is described as using Cogito as a sort of "bucket" to draw these concepts and ideas like water from the Well of Humanity, aka the (implied to be collective) human subconscious.

While I don't recall if we're ever told what the initial source of Cogito was for Ayin and Carmen's experiments, we do know that after Carmen's "death", her disembodied nervous system became a constant source of it for L Corp.

So, this tells us something important: Abnormalities are concepts and ideas that float around in this Well of Humanity given physical form, which makes sense considering how many of them are based on things such as fairytales, folktales, legends, fears, events in the City's recent history, and other general ideas that the people living in the City may have.

However, it is important to note that not all Abnormalities come from Cogito specifically. In fact, we see an example of one such Abnormality in Chapter 19 of Leviathan. We see an Abnormality we see in LobCorp, Schadenfreude, burst out of Distorted Jumsoon when the beliefs and desires he held and which were the fuel for his Distortion were completely broken down.

Notably, there is a thematic similarity between Jumsoon's Distortion and Schadenfreude, that is being the theme of observing every moment in the world.

What we see is an Abnormality being born out of a Distortion's ego death, where the moment a Distortion loses its desires and beliefs, its identity, the wish that pushed them into Distorting in the first place is the only thing left, that physical manifestation of a concept taking place of that missing self.

Did that make any sense?

Basically what I'm saying is: an Abnormality is a concept that became the self in its entirety.

As such, anything that would be able to give a concept or idea by itself physical form or sense of self, like Cogito or the ego death of Distortion, could potentially form an Abnormality. Which, laid out like that, means it's absolutely not impossible for some proto-Abnormality to form on its own, whether due to a concept acquiring a sense of self naturally, or due to the interference of some other factor we currently might not know about.

So, now that we know what Abnormalities are about, let's go back to what we were talking about: where the pre White Nights and Dark Days Distortions and Manifested E.G.Os could have come from.

We already established that Bloodfiends join the lineage due to ingesting a substance (blood) that came directly from an Abnormality.

Now, let's talk about Kali. Luckily, we get a much clearer picture on what led her to manifest an E.G.O thanks to the story on the Red Mist Key Page. Kali was the first person to wield a prototype of an E.G.O weapon, a weapon and a byproduct that was able to be extracted from the Abnormality called Nothing There. As Kali used this weapon, the ego of the Abnormality would seem to speak to her, its words becoming clearer the longer Kali used it. It would ask if Kali wanted a shell, a form of armor to protect her flesh. Though initially ignoring it, Kali started to interpret its words with her own bias, becoming torn between how much blood she spilled, and how much of it was for protecting others. This eventually leads to her momentarily breaking down, only to steel her resolve and vow to protect Carmen at all cost, this desire of which leads to her manifesting her own E.G.O in the form of an armor, a "shell" to protect her while she protects others.

So, to summarize, Kali had direct contact with an unstable version of E.G.O gear extracted from an Abnormality. Upon being broken down by this gear, seemingly on the verge of Corrosion, Kali instead steels herself in her resolve, and her desire to protect others mixed with the influence of the E.G.O weapon allow her to manifest a shell to protect herself.

Effectively, both pre White Night and Dark Days are caused because of some sort of contact with something extracted from an Abnormality. For Bloodfiends, it was physically consuming Nosferatu's blood. For Kali, it was being in prolonged contact with an unstable Nothing There E.G.O, almost becoming Corroded, but staving it off by focusing on her own desires.

Now, some of you may be asking, why is that important? That's that and this is this, the current Distortion Phenomenon is different because the Light, right?

And here, dear reader, is where you would be wrong.

Let's recap what the Light is, shall we?

From what we know, the Light is the product of the Seed of Light. Carmen's thought process was this: to save humanity, people need to be cured of a "disease of the mind" and have light returned to their souls. The Seed of Light is meant to be the medicine to this disease, something that would draw out from the human subconscious, a formless concept taking shape and becoming a literal seed that could be planted and bloom within people's minds (...is that where the term Effloresced comes from, I wonder).

We know two things that the Seed of Light requires to be fully created: the emotional catharsis of all the Sephirah and A himself overcoming their pasts, and energy in the form of Enkephalin, which is extracted from Abnormalities. Upon being released in the form of Light shining over the City, Carmen and Ayin would enter the Light itself, their essences becoming a part of it.

Interestingly enough, one of the bad, non-canon endings to LobCorp reveals that the incomplete Seed of Light would have the effect of turning people into Abnormalities! Which, makes sense, considering the main power of this Seed is to draw out formless concepts from the human subconscious and give them shape, literally the exact process that Abnormalities are created through.

However, this isn't what I want to focus on here. I want to focus on one of the components of the Seed of Light - Enkephalin. A substance that is extracted from Abnormalities, in the same process that results in E.G.O as a byproduct.

Can you see the pattern yet? Nosferatu's blood, an unstable E.G.O weapon, a Seed of Light created using Enkephalin. All of the sources of Distortions and Manifested E.G.Os are themselves either substances extracted from Abnormalities, or something created using substances extracted from Abnormalities.

Another funny thing to consider is the alternate source of Enkephalin we learn about from Limbus Company - human nervous systems. You know what other substance was extracted from a human nervous system? That's right, Cogito.

Perhaps that's why the Seed of Light had to also include emotional catharsis as an ingredient. Perhaps Enkephalin on its own being used makes it too close to Cogito, thus resulting in the same outcome. And perhaps, it's also why the Light is able to make people give form to thoughts in their own minds on such a wide scale. But, that's just speculation on my part.

So, now that this whole preamble is out of the way and we roughly know How the Light is able to cause people to Distort and Manifest E.G.Os, let's take a bit of a closer look. After all, the Light itself wasn't enough to make everyone Distort/Effloresce all at once, perhaps because it was cut short by Angela. No, the Light in its current actual form merely allows people to Distort/Effloresce, it's not the actual trigger.

Which, begs the question: what is the trigger?

From what we see in Wonderlab, Library of Ruina, Limbus Company, and Leviathan, there are two main variables that one needs to reach the threshold of either Distorting or Efflorescing.

The first is being in a state of high emotions.

Catt learning that all of the suffering their coworkers had gone through was for nothing due to the Manager having been dead all this time. Philip being at his lowest after the people who he cared about and who tried to protect him had died. Xiao losing the man she loved and her coworkers/friends one by one. Yan being forced to face where the Prescripts truly come from, and realizing that all of his attempts at working against them were in vain. Roland finally arriving at the moment he could make Angela suffer for what her actions caused. Vergilius losing Garnet and being reminded of the reason why he cared for the orphanage in the first place. Dongbeak being reminded of why she's doing what she's doing in the face of Dongrang's mocking and the possibility of her defeat. Dongrang being reminded of the better times and being forced to face just how far he has fallen.

The second is having strong, sincere desires, and the resolve to follow them.

Catt wishing that the heart could have done something in the face of this meaninglessness. Philip initially wishing to selfishly avenge those he lost, only to then break down and wish to shut the world out at all cost. Xiao wishing to not let her loved ones' deaths be in vain, to be someone that people can rely on despite her missteps. Yan's desires becoming one with the will of the City after falling into despair. Roland's desire to make Angela truly suffer as revenge for Angelica's death. Vergilius wishing to carry his sins and the suffering he's seen with him. Dongbaek wishing to be the soil that a new world could bloom upon. Dongrang initially wishing to run away from the shadow other people's accomplishments put him under, and then deciding to instead find his own path towards reaching success.

But then comes the question, what is the difference? What decides whether someone Distorts or Manifests E.G.O? Funnily enough, Chapter 18 of Leviathan spells it out.

To Distort is to fully become one with one's desire. It's to expel everything that isn't the "self", and to paint the world with that desire as well. It's making one's desires and thoughts take form through one's body, the self becomes unified and true.

On the other hand, to Manifest E.G.O is to "show restraint", as Carmen puts it. To understand and face reality as it is, yet still let one's desires take physical form, in this case as "clothes and tools". Using those thoughts and wishes rather than becoming one with them.

And this, well, succintly explains what form a Distortion or E.G.O takes on, doesn't it? It's entirely based on what desire triggered this process, as that's the concept that is given physical form thanks to the Light.

This isn't even speculation at this point. This is actually something directly spelled out in Leviathan as well.

To quote Vergilius describing his Effloresced E.G.O:

"I wear a crown of thorns upon my head, so that I may shoulder everything until my future victory. Faded laurel leaves sprout to cover all of the thorns on my head, and tears of blood flow from my eyes so I may see all the sins I'll have to bear from now on.  And the thorny path I shall travel is a curtain of blood containing my karma, a crimson cloth that covers my whole being."

...

Yeah I think this is a good point to end this post off. This already took me several hours to write, dear lord.

[voice-of-the-light-c]

Carmen. i think we need you to understand.

you've done more than any human should have done. humans should not need to fight tooth and nail against gods to bring hope, and yet that's what you made happen.

not just you, but your entire team. nobody there was perfect. nobody will ever be perfect.

Gebura will never be Kali, as you will never be the Carmen you where before you... well, you know. but you still stand for your goals, your desires.

Carmen, the first Distortion, and the most hope filled human in the entire city. people may call you a monster, and they may even be right, but your not like white night, who has a facade that mimicks your story to hide a desire to perform evil. you are a good person. not perfect, but good.

without you, the city will never have learned hope. without you, kali would not have proven the head to not be absolute. without you, Ayin would never have had the hope to create the tree of light.

without you, angela would never exist to beat down the head into submission and remain a stain on their record for now and forever.

perhaps i can dare to say that without you, as you exist today, no EGO could even manifest. you speak with those who have reached their breaking point, and either they fall to their own failures, becoming distortion, or they rise above and manifest EGO. it's your push, your test, your support that allows this to happen.

your actions made hope. hope that lives on to this day in your world, and beyond.

You seem weirdly knowledgeable about my situation... But you're wrong. Good intentions don't make me a good person. Good actions don't make me a good person. My mistakes are what make me a bad person. This is why I can only exist to help others. Because no matter how much good I've done I'm still a bad person.

[leonawriter]

A few things about Carmen.

First of all, I'm biased because there are many things that imply she wasn't the greatest person even before she got Brain Vat-ed, but my entire Brand is "we have to look at things objectively and by looking at the facts in order to get a full and accurate picture of the way things are, not how we simply want them to be," so I'm going to do that. As best as I can.

Okay, so... what we know about her before she died is limited completely to other peoples' testimony, which is highly important because as we know from my other posts, Everyone Here Is An Unreliable Narrator.

That said, let's take a look at a few of those things.

I'd love to use images to prove I'm getting the dialogue straight from the game on every single line, but unfortunately Tumblr has an image limit of 30 per post! So. After a point, text only it is.

Starting from the past!

First, and the most recent (chronologically) yet objective of those takes on her, is Binah. Whose entire deal is to see things without getting caught up enough that you don't see the bigger picture, funnily enough!

Roland: Hang on, what? You mean the Carmen who recruited people for her quest to cure humanity? Binah: She strove to create a world without conflict. To elaborate, her idea of utopia was one in which people did not harm each other, and could mutually understand. She dreamed of a world where people could dream. Alas, she could never reach that ideal herself.

Now, this is interesting, because as said, Binah is someone who was never part of the team, who never followed Carmen, and the person she is interested in watching isn't Carmen - it's Ayin. He, after all, was the one who by the last loop could face his fear of her and confront her head on in her meltdown.

But she was also the one who was interacting with her the most over the past ten thousand years, unable to go mad from her dealings with the Bucket and Well. So there's this:

So. Yeah. Binah's had Carmen to talk with over that length of time.

We can see from this that Carmen's original goal was, in fact, to create a utopia where no one hurt each other and people could have their own dreams, rather than just the ones that the City gave to them (the need to survive).

However, that's not all we know about her.

Let's look at memories from those who actually interacted with her!

The problem here is that for the most part... that's reduced to one person: Ayin. And he's hardly reliable here! But... there are a few places where we can see others' perspectives, one way or another, and just because he's an unreliable narrator doesn't cause his opinions and memories from being useless for our needs here.

That's for the most part. We also have Angela and the Patron Librarians in Ruina to think of.

We know that she was someone who was warm and full of life, courtesy of Ayin, Angela, and Netzach:

Netzach: All I could think about was how brilliant and alive a person could be. She went on about how she'll change this world and its people. Whenever I saw Carmen brimming with joy and pride for her cause, I felt alive too.

We know that Carmen had fond memories of and warmth for Ayin:

Angela: Why did you have to model me after a person with fond memories of you?

And that she was excited to see people choose to work with her for her cause, and that she "wasn't the manipulative sort of person."

A(yin) [flashback]: Just ike everyone else, Michelle liked Carmen. That was not trickery or a show. She wasn't the manipulative sort of person who'd keep up such a facade, either.

She could understand that she had certain privileges, that others did not, but still wanted to help them:

Carmen: You know, I don't have any true contact with the lives of the people from the Backstreets, nor the pain they go through. From that I've always felt so ashamed of everything, even to be graced by a small ray of sunshine.

Gebura: But Carmen told me that she wouldn't give up on anyone, even people like us.

She was a workaholic who looked out for others:

A(yin): Th only problem was that Carmen was too wrapped up in taking care of others. She never had a moment to take good care of herself.

Carmen was the one who encouraged them to save Lisa and Enoch, from the Outskirts, and ensured that they'd be looked after:

Lisa: Besides, Carmen told us that we didn't have to worry about anything here, too. A(yin): Carmen personally asked her to bring the children here.

It was the trust between Carmen and the team that caused Daniel to choose Carmen's group over literally any other Wing:

Chesed: Manager, do you know why I chose to join your small company, instead of any other grander Wings? [...] It was because I liked how everyone here trusted Carmen.

All of which seems positive, right?

Except... the seeds (ha) of her becoming the sort of person who would shift "bring out the best potential in people" to "aren't you through with being nice? don't you want to be selfish and distort?" were there from the beginning.

In the very scene where Ayin is saying that Carmen isn't the manipulative sort of person, he also recounts that she had done this:

A(yin): If your beloved parents, or your precious friends try to coax you, are you confident that you'll be able to refuse them? A(yin, narrator: She wasn't able to say anything to my browbeating. Carmen broke the silence instead. Carmen: Don't be too harsh on her. She's amazing to be here at such a young age!

Maybe on its own, this would be a harmless action, but bear in mind: they are currently in or heading to a lab that is in the Outskirts for the sake of evading the eye of the Head. Ayin is watching out for Michelle by warning her of the very real danger she is putting herself into, if she isn't strong enough.

And Carmen brushes over his concerns, overrules him, and ignores the potential danger.

One could argue that this is a simple mistake, however it happens over and over again in the course of the flashbacks.

Over and over, she is able to be dismissive of others, not looking past what she sees in the moment, yet able to plan ahead, which is said to X right all the way back in Day 9:

Angela:  [Alright, the letter ‘C’. Not a bad choice.] Persons who select C believe that the process is more important than the outcome. Therefore, they are good at planning ahead and enjoy change. They will be able to gain insight and attain inner growth without being confined by the rules.

"Okay, but how is she dismissive of others? We've only seen her support Michelle so far!" Right then.

Kali: By the way, who's the guy glaring at me? Carmen: Oh, that's A(yin). He just always has a serious look on his face.

Effectively, she dismisses Kali's concerns about Ayin not trusting her, but also makes a joke out of Ayin's own RBF (which most likely has its origin in a lethal mix of autism and depression, based on my own read of him).

Even if all Carmen intended was to break the ice, this is not conducive to communication. No one's concerns are alleviated. Kali may now potentially dismiss Ayin's expression as irrelevant.

Daniel's recruitment comes with a double-whammy.

A(yin), flashback: "He's a bit pompous, so don't believe everything he says," she said to me.

Which is bad enough, encouraging your junior who has been with you this long to dismiss the words of someone who is choosing to work with you. These two people will be working together, and there is a certain irony in how Daniel chose to join Carmen's team because they all trusted her...

...but these last two especially beg the question - did they all trust each other?

And here's the other side of the Whammy, which also comes in two parts:

A(yin): I asked how she was able to recruit such an elite. Carmen answered nonchalantly, as if I had asked about something trivial. "Don't you know that by now?"

And as to what "that" might be... here's this, from when Daniel had just arrived, asking how she knew he was coming:

Carmen: I told you. No matter how great you may be, you will always be in the palm of my hand.

...excuse me, what was that?

Because first off, we have a certain level of pride and arrogance, in how she "nonchalantly" answers about how she could recruit someone from the elite. To her, this is something she can just do with ease. She sees no great feat where others would have to struggle.

But then there's this phrase: No matter how great you may be, you will always be in the palm of my hand. This gave me an immediate sense of discomfort when I first saw this scene. Not to mention, it's used in far less benign ways later on; Angela to Chesed (who she has been forcing to do unsavoury things, resulting in death) and notably several major enemies in Limbus Company.

The good guys do not use phrases such as these which inhibit the freedom and agency of a person.

One has to wonder how Carmen could balance "I want people to not hurt each other and to dream their own dreams" with the way of thinking that would encourage such a phrase to become so very associated with her.

Moving on, and in spite of being safe from the Outskirts, Lisa and Enoch weren't actually happy, or safe themselves.

Enoch: Well... what if we said Carmen was our new mom, then? Lisa: No... This isn't the same at all... Let me go home, please...

More importantly... when Enoch asks "Please allow me to participate in the experiment"-

A(yin) [flashback]: Carmen spent many nights thinking about his earnest request. Then, finally, we... >Approved his participation.

Adults have a duty of care to children to NOT DO THIS.

Concerningly enough, there are implications that she may have known this would happen - she says in no uncertain terms to Ayin that:

Carmen: I have something I should confess. I actually have a much weaker heart than everyone thinks. I always say stuff like “count on me” and “just follow me” in front of everyone… But I’m never sure about the things I do. If anyone were harmed or put in trouble because of what I do… I would definitely be shaken and end up hating myself. I know that. That’s why I need to ask you for a favor. No matter what I may become, please finish what I started. We humans have weak hearts. One crack and it will easily crumble. I am no exception to this, but you… You’ll endure through it. There is only one way out, and it’ll never change. You know what I’m trying to say, right?

Basically? She more than implies that she knows perfectly well that if she caused someone to be hurt because of the path she takes to getting what she wants (her ideal world), she'll "crumble."

She approved Enoch going into the experiment knowing this about herself.

She also knew that she couldn't face her fears, so she placed all of the weight of that onto one person: Ayin. When realistically, no one human should have been given that kind of weight to carry all on their own. Based on our knowledge of what happens next, we know that Ayin, too, is no exception to the "humans have weak hearts" rule.

Then, we reach how she is after Enoch dies, once she's in her own unstable state:

Abel: I saw her eyes right after opening that door. Those eyes, soaked with red, as she had to endure cruel reality. She walked into your lab and started illustrating her hypothesis. Carefully, yet decidedly. You wanted to tell her it was preposterous, but like always, she had you persuaded. You had no choice but to admit it was the only way. What made me, us, so upset... Abel: Was how much it hurt to listen to her put it so calmly, as if it were none of our business. And how much we loathed ourselves for just having to tolerate it.

So, in essence, she had a very forceful personality, and she steamrollered all over Ayin's objections to her hypothesis, which can be theorised was the origin of the Seed of Light Scenario, and the very Script itself, as the devs have confirmed that she had a hand in it, to the point where she at least detailed out what the hiring practices should be (this is in one of the interviews).

She is very good at convincing people to think what she thinks is best, and to do what she wants them to do. Remember that phrase of hers? "You are always in the palm of my hand." Here, we see a direct example of that as Ayin was trying to fight back, but she put down his objections.

Possibly most important is that last line there - remember that this is implied to be almost certainly her discussing things that Ayin should do to continue her work after she is gone. We do not know the details, but if we look at even the bare minimum... he has to do some horrendous things, even without putting his friends/former coworkers in metal boxes. And here is Carmen, talking about the future, with Ayin knowing that it is in fact going to be him who has to do all of this. But does he get a say in this?

No. He does not. He simply "tolerates" her putting it "calmly, as if it were none of [his] business."

All in all, the overall picture so far of Carmen is of someone who... has grand dreams, high ideals, and who may not see the end as justifying the means, but appears to believe that cruelty has to be "endured" regardless, all of which makes her, quite simply, a very flawed human being.

What came next?

Well, we know that Carmen became the Bucket, dipping into the Well of the human subconscious, because of Binah. We know that she was still alive.

We know through Hokma that agents employed by Lobotomy Corporation's Headquarters had records made, and that any one of them could be brought back at Hokma's will.

We... also know that a fair number of Abnormalities have traits in common with her.

Of the most blatant, there's Bloodbath (the method of her death), and WhiteNight.

Bloodbath drags agents into it, and you get more Positive Enkephalin boxes for each agent in the bath (i.e, sacrificed to it). However, you don't get unique boxes, meaning that there are significant drawbacks (you lose agents, and you don't get gear).

This can effectively be another way of referring back to how Carmen's death only served to drag others down into depression and despair with her, and although they gained some things, there were significant drawbacks in that people died, and it wasn't even efficient.

WhiteNight starts off as the abnormality "Plague Doctor." Now, Plague Doctor is connected to Carmen in two ways - firstly, both she and the historical Plague Doctors wanted to cure an illness that plagued humanity, but there's also the fact that when fighting the others after the end, the Plague Doctor is the EGO that Angela, who was built based off of Carmen and spends most of the game emulating her, wears. Plague Doctors in history are also infamous for only having ineffective cures.

The supposedly Zayin Plague Doctor, after it has blessed twelve of the agents, however... will transform into WhiteNight, and immediately transform them into Apostles. The only ways for WhiteNight to be defeated are to completely kill WhiteNight itself, or to have the Twelfth Apostle do Confession work on One Sin and Hundreds of Good Deeds.

I've seen others suggest that this last apostle is Michelle, who told the Head about them, or it could be someone else. Personally, I like the idea that it was Michelle, but... I'm also partial to the idea that it's Ayin himself, given that even up to the duration of Ruina, we have the Librarians saying that they enjoyed being with Carmen, and Ayin was the first one of her followers to realise (during management, in ways they couldn't see) that perhaps they shouldn't be following her exactly to the letter and spirit anymore. So he's either that last one, or he's connected somehow to our good friend One Sin, who is there at the start of every single Facility.

This is due to Adam, who shares a lot in common with WhiteNight.

Adam: Abnormalities are the true humans of this age. They are the pure form that bursts out from the chrysalis that is our empty skin. They feared and tried to contain the Abnormalities. Do not place blame upon their ignorance. It is only natural for one to fear being naked in the face of the world. At least you and I know one thing. Carmen shall be our forbidden fruit for the new humanity.

Now, yes, we can't just take Adam's words as flat truth. But if we take how he speaks about Carmen, and the bad end you get from not being able to face him either through his questions or from failing his Core Suppression, we get something that's very similar to the fallout of the White Nights and Dark Days, but on a bigger scale.

People start distorting. It isn't called that yet, but as Adam sees it:

Adam: Everything that was suppressed, bursting out in every shape and figure possible. Does it not make you tremble in excitement? 

Yeah, that's distortion.

Even if Carmen wasn't WhiteNight before, and Ayin wasn't the twelfth apostle or One Sin at the start, they certainly are now.

Which leads us to - what about now?

Perhaps in contrast to what she was like before, perhaps not, she now focuses far more on the "you should live for yourself, rather than for the sake of the City" than anything else.

"The children that underwent the experiment…" "It's too late. The way back is gone. That clear ignorance of the world made the children rather burdensome." The merry voice mercilessly strikes down my question.

This is an exchange between Vergilius and Carmen, from Leviathan. Note how he expresses concern for the children he had been trying to save, and she is dismissive of his concerns, and described as "mercilessly" striking down his question.

She then goes on to emphasise to him how none of the awful things that happened were "his fault."

She also says something that calls back to Adam's words, regarding humanity and distortion:

"…It's certainly not a normal form to take." "Normal… To them, they are normal while the world is the abnormal one. But more importantly, they have come to cherish themselves and see the world through their own eyes."

Emphasis mine.

It isn't only Vergilius she's being dismissive of while attempting to distort him, however.

"It is to become a self unbound by the eyes and standards of the City. However, the resulting form changes depending on the way it was revealed. …Thanks to my junior, who has a different idea than me, joining the Light." The word "junior" being insignificantly introduced and disregarded bothered me. It was spoken with a light and calm tone, but I feel as if it was involved in every cause and effect.

Emphasis mine again, because as Vergilius says, that's a very big thing to just brush aside as a "by the way"! Ayin's very presence in the Light itself, without him having to say anything or do anything outright, allows people to manifest EGO - and yet, Carmen's reaction to this is not pride. She simply states it as a fact.

She also refers to Ayin as only her "junior," and not as someone who finished the work she started.

"If what you say is true… Are you saying we shouldn't look at anything other than ourselves?" "…You ask the same question as my junior. We must struggle, but as human beings, we should use reason, not emotion…" The voice adjusted itself. "So, he said, we have to fight in the most human way possible, through clothing and tools, while holding the human form in high regard." "……" "But that only pollutes the results. You don't need moderation when revealing yourself. After all, if you go through something without properly reaching its conclusion and keep going in such a roundabout way, your wish will become diluted and be forgotten all over again."

This is also vastly important towards understanding both Ayin and Carmen's different stances on humanity and distortion vs. EGO; Carmen here outright says things that have Vergilius asking if she means people "shouldn't look at anything other than ourselves," and I do have to wonder what tone she was taking when she talks about him, because of the line "the voice adjusted itself" - what from? She clearly isn't proud. Was it annoyance? Irritation? Here is another person who, like Ayin, is opposing her ideas of how things should work, after all.

She sees both Ayin and Vergilius' takes as "polluting the results." That you can't take other people into consideration when focusing on your dreams, because your own wish will be forgotten along the way.

I've put this here rather than right back at the start, because it's plausible that the past years as the Bucket have changed her, and she is in the light and all that now. But... how much, really, do we know hasn't changed? Do we know if this isn't what she felt all the way back before she died?

Remember: Ayin argued against her ideas before she killed herself. We were not privy to that argument, however... we are privy to this one - where she refers to his ideas as, as stated, "polluting the results." Do we know that this is not what she said all the way back then? Simply putting it in nicer terms, so that he had no way to say that she wasn't right?

Either way, she's gone from someone who wanted people to be able to understand each other without causing harm, while at the same time most likely being unaware of how harmful she was being to those around her, to someone who is causing others to distort, and sees absolutely nothing wrong with this.

The way I see it, Roland wasn't wrong in his estimation to call her a cult leader. She gathered people around her - often vulnerable people, several of them young - and told those who were old enough to think for themselves and who were able to go to other places that they were "always in the palm of [her] hand." She was able to walk the Backstreets even before recruiting Kali, a Grade 2 Fixer who would later become a Colour. Each of the people who she recruited trusted her more than they really and truly knew each other... it certainly has a lot in common with a cult, even if wasn't, or even if that wasn't what she intended.

There's a reason why, in my opinion, some of the Limbus Company enemies that are associated with her are people such as Kromer, Ahab, and Dongbaek, who drew people to their cause in spite of It being all for the sake of their own selfish desires.

All in all... when I say that I am biased against her and that I don't like her, my views come from how she is a person who was responsible for a lot of harm, be it intentional or not, and she foisted her work and problems onto others when she knew she couldn't carry on with it.

That said, I think that she is amazingly well written, nuanced, and quite frankly terrifying as a person.

[cat-of-starlight]

Ok-

In the wake of the new Limbus Brainrot because Canto 4 ended, I've been seeing a certain... Dante related theory... making the rounds again and I wanted to post my thoughts about it.

Putting it under the cut for length reasons- No specific spoilers?, I just don't wanna blast people with the text wall lmao

I gotta say, I really hate the Dante = Ayin theory. Desperately.

Not any hate to the people theorizing- not like that, I just already have a deep hatred of [x person is actually y person]/Reincarnation/etc. theories.

Why, you may ask? Well, in the case of this theory specifically, I have three main reasons.

1 - The vibes of the two characters themselves

Important note, I actually like both characters. I know some people have A Lot to say about Ayin, and honestly so do I (Probably different things but yea), but I generally don't mind him as much as some other people seem to.

I also love Dante.

And Specifically, I'll say- I like them both for Incredibly Different Reasons. Different enough reasons that I feel that mixing the two would ruin them both. I mean sure, Dante CLEARLY has something going on in the memories they can't yet remember, but honestly? Ayin already had his arc. HAD his chance in the spotlight- a whole game of it. I wouldn't mind a cameo, or reason for him to be important in some way, but I'd be crushed if all the reasons I've come to love Dante were smothered by "oops all Ayin"

I feel like it would make it almost... Pointless? "Oh yea this character may have had their whole character arc, but surprise! They aren't REALLY their own person and are instead this dude who already had his character arc!"

2 - They/Them Dante Supremacy™

Now, considering that the meme They/Them Dante post that I made blew up and is now my most popular post on my blog, I think its safe to say where I stand on the Dante's Pronouns part of everything-

I think it would be kind of... dismissive of that to make "Oh yea they were they/them to hide their identity" Because uhhh. Their identity is already hidden. We can't see their face. Literally anyone could have their head taken, a clock replaced, and that outfit slapped on and it generally wouldn't matter-

I feel like it kind of would send the message of "They can only count as they/them because their everything is hidden and we can't tell anyway" which??? No??? Even once Dante's actual head gets revealed, if people start switching calling them to whatever gender they look the most like and the game still uses they/them I'm Going To Bite People.

3 - ??

The least plot relevant, and the most just vibe based is- I just kinda feel like this type of reveal in writing often kinda feels like a cop out? I mean, I'm sure there's probably a well done version of one of these, but I sure as hell haven't found it yet-

I mean, in a BIG city with TONS of characters, there is SO MUCH plot that a character can have, without needing to jump back to a character that they already have. Sure- Project Moon Protags often have a Big Reveal, and its often Shocking- but does it really need to be a rehashed reveal from the first game? "boo he's old news get new material" ya know?

--

Anyway yea. I don't like the theory- Never have from the first time I saw a post about it.

If you like it, feel free to keep on with it- I don't mean this to say "If you theorize this, you suck" or anything, I just keep seeing it, and felt the desire to put my own two cents in~

But yea, keep on with it if you like it? Maybe tag it something specific and I'll just block the tag lmao

[whitebookposts]

alright so now that we're discussing elder headcanons what are your hcs for ayin :3

OH HEY ANOTHER FEW WEEKS HAVE PASSED BEFORE I ANSWERED THIS. HAHA I live in shame every breathing moment <3

ANYWAY!! AYIN!!! OUR FRIEND!!! THE ULTIMATE DAD\MOM\GRANDMA!!! The one who holds so much pain behind their gentle hands.... one of my favorite elders, right behind Priestess (shhhhh let's ignore the fact she isnt even canon). Let's get right to them!!!!

GENDAQUEEEER I am a firm he\she\they Ayin believer (although it does make writing fics with him a bit tricky lol). idk why, but it makes so much sense, both because I feel like Ayin feels love and appreciation towards all gender expressions, be it feminine or masculine, and because I'm projecting my own gender identity onto em. plus, Ayin was called both a he and a they by tgc, and in one of the game's translations (I don't remember the language, unfortunately), Ayin is called "Prairie grandma" instead of Prairie elder. Overall, I feel like Ayin wouldn't care what pronouns you use for her, he is happy with all (projecting again), and they will wear beautiful dresses and gorgeous suits depending on the mood.

PANSEXULAAAA I don't even have any explanation for this one, I just know it on molecular level.

Youngest child syndrome Headcanon that Ayin is the youngest of three kids, having two older twin brothers. Both because it just… makes sense for him to be the youngest (listen. Half of my headcanons are just vibes.), and because when @grapeless-seeds introduced this headcanon to me (using early beta content where it seemed that some spirit memories were actually memories of the elders, and what we concluded was beta ayin was surrounded by two more spirits that looked a lot like them) I fell in love with it immediately. There are so many funny scenarios that can arise from it, esp if Ayin turns out to be taller than her older brothers. This is also a basis for some of my angst for Ayin too, because out of the other elders, Ayin has the most family still up there in the constellation while she is stuck down there (I'm a "elders are fallen stars who crave to get back home" type of fella)

ARTS & CRAFTS Like to think that Ayin is the type of person to always make some sort of pretty trinkets and stuff, often pairing up with Teth to make them. His favorite type of creation though? Clay pots! All the smaller clay pots you see around her temple are handmade by her :) (even though it does get tricky with their big hands :"D)

Hard of hearing Hard of hearing Ayin headcanon blast! I like to think that the reason they have bells on their temple is so that he can hear their calls better since she would have a hard time hearing them from the village. Originally born from noticing the detail that in his cutscene, Ayin needs to look around before spotting you instead of simply following the sound of our footsteps and the flame. He mostly hears either thanks to a special device created by Teth for him, or through the rumbles of the earth around them. Which leads to-

Is this an avatar reference I forgot to mention this in my Teth headcanon list, but I hc that the elders that appear holding the colored light in the cave of Prophecies can manipulate the respective elements. Even more, they could do so even before they were granted these lights, but it was the lights that allowed them to master the skill. So Ayin, as the holder of Earth, is one of the most powerful elders - she can transform the terrain, make plants grow, lift entire islands into the sky (why do you think their temple is so high up), and even change gravity. If such power fell to any other hands but Ayin's who knows what could have happened? Thankfully, Ayin has a very strong connection and respect for the land, coming from a constellation (the way the stars call their families) of farmers (but that is a whole other can of worms) so you can be sure Ayin can be trusted with it. But if they were to use it aggressively…..

I got my ass kicked, I ain't posting that Both because of Ayin's ability to manipulate earth, AND their sheer size and physical strength, if you somehow manage to get into a physical fight with them, expect your ass to get handed to you on a cute hand made plate. But let's be honest if you somehow manage to get such a calm and gentle person like Ayin to fight you, you deserve everything that comes next.

A single mom who works two jobs...... It's already canon that Flight guide was Ayin's apprentice, but my headcanon extends to Sanctuary guide too, and that for both of them, Ayin was not only a master but a parental figure as well. Even though all the other elders told Ayin that it would be silly to raise ancestor children since the ancestor life span is so much shorter and they will see their kids grow and get old and die before them, Ayin still took on the job because she couldn't let these poor kids have no home, ready to face the pain of their death if just she gets to see them grow old and happy. well… they did die earlier than Ayin…. unfortunately, they also died much, much earlier than they were supposed to and Ayin expected. Oops.

This is the part where we get to the horrors During the height of the darkstone era and the fallout that happened after it, Ayin was caught between a rock and a hard place. On one hand, he longed desperately to get back to the stars and reunite with his family, and that, at the time, was believed to be possibly only through continual darkstone use. On the other, as mentioned earlier, Ayin has a great connection to the land and a great love for creatures and nature. We can even see it in their realm, which is the healthiest, most thriving out of all others. I mean, she has a whole ass sanctuary in the Prairie, so it's clear that the preservation of nature was very important to them. So Ayin was deeply conflicted, wanting to return to the stars but knowing it would be at the expense of the land. This desire to go home was what caused her to go with the continual industrialization at first, and the crushing guilt just made them work harder and harder, running themself thin trying to provide enough light from their realm for the growing demand, because hey, if they work themself to exhaustion, they don't have enough time to dwell if their actions are good! Sleep became their coping mechanism. (Might not be super healthy, but hey! At least it's not DRINKING like in early concept art! I still can't believe they were planning to make Ayin a drunk and that the pots were originally there to contain the drink.)

more horrors Such behavior and Ayin's quiet acceptance of the situation continued up until… it couldn't anymore. Ayin couldn't go on like that anymore, she saw her land and her neighbor's lands fall to ruin, more and more people becoming sick, a war waging taking more and more resources and lives…. and the catalyst for it all was the death of both of her apprentices, who died protecting the very same things she taught them to protect. That was the final straw. And Prairie officially joined the resistance.

Oops, still horrors. So you remember that cut-out beta part of the Aurora concert where we saw the elders on the battlefield during the war, with Ayin with Daleth being on the side of the resistance? Yeah, it's a pretty cool basis for this headcanon, BUT ACTUALLY, this idea came to me so much earlier, IN A DREAM. I am not even joking, I had a dream 3 years ago where Ayin was fighting in the war. Speak of Apollo and his prophetic visions, huh? Do you remember how I mentioned that Ayin would be terrifying to fight against due to her control over earth? Yea, let's just say the giant craters on the battlefield in GW weren't always there.

Doomed middle aged yaoi An extension to the previous point, I'm a Tsadi x Ayin fan, and seeing how Tsadi appeared on the other side of the battle on that one cut out segment... well, do what you will with it.

okay back to normal stuff Ayin is really great at putting children to sleep, even the most energetic ones. there is just something about the softness and warmth of his body and the general calming vibes around her that make young children relax. Was really helpful to Priestess when the little twins were full of energy all too late when she had none.

Grandma instinct Don't say you're hungry next to them. Ayin WILL cook a "all you can eat" buffet for you if you do. No one is going hungry if Ayin can help it. Honestly, I know this hc sounds very joky, but I genuinely love the healthy relationship with food Ayin has. It really helps me to not worry about calories and weight gain. I know Ayin would want me to be well fed and eat tasty food first and foremost. :3

Ayin milk

ANDDD this concludes my list for now! In truth, I have so, so much more headcanons about Ayin, but Im getting tired typing all that, besides, many of them will need a much bigges exposition about my world building and general world headcanons for Sky. Hope you enjoyed reading those!

[ratlesshonret]

Been thinking a little, and depending on what they do with Dante in TCTB - namely when Dante starts going on about things they really shouldn't know and it freaks out the Sinners - it'll sink or support a whole bunch of theories.

My personal one is that it was Carmen/Ayin speaking through them because of something to do with the Monolith, as if it weakened whatever is keeping Dante and the Light separate for a bit. I believe this'll happen again in the future, but as the collection of boughs grow the more of it they'll be able to handle - given I'm taking all the Very Hot Fire as a sign that they couldn't handle it Well.

time will tell, i suppose

[northwest-cryptid]

i am going to tell you the hopkins lore i pulled out of my ass. this isnt canon

i think hopkins isnt. really all that awful to be honest. objectively hes just. average for the city. hes seen as awful because hes an obstacle to the player, but like. his crime is stealing enkephalin and fucking off, while fucking over his coworker he didnt really like

i see ppl who say he doesnt care about aya which is probably intended by projmoon but i see it less as that and more he doesnt really...want to express emotions in front of the limbus crew? he openly mocks yuri and the sinners dying and does not hesitate to stab them in the back right after aya dies

and he doesnt mock aya when she dies. actually he barely says anything at all that isnt about dante not being able to speak. hes completely silent otherwise. which could be because of yuri freaking out but he usually pokes at yuri?

so to me i think he did care, he just didnt want to show weakness. is he an ass? yeah, but hes not uniquely an ass. hes just normal for the city, and honestly he makes a good point about the sinners going in entirely unprepared for anything lol

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate the opening sentence to this all because telling me straight up "this is a product of my own thoughts" helps a ton!

Also yea go off fam, I don't mind this sort of thing when I know what I'm dealing with. It's the mix of fandomization with actual facts of the canon narrative sprinkled in just enough to be confusing that bugs me.

Also I don't recognize the name, but I love the point of like "sure this person is an asshole but there's nothing about him that is actually worse than anyone else in the city."

I think that's something a lot of people forget about the Proj Moon universe. We sorta view it like it's our world but just different, if we lived in the city we'd all do what we needed to in order to survive.

I'm not a violent person, I have no reason to kill or hurt anyone and considering the world we live in I likely, hopefully; never will. However if I lived in the city I'd absolutely carry weapons regularly and I'd live by the core rules of "kill them before they can kill you" and "never leave yourself vulnerable" like hell Roland was arguably a saint compared to most since a lot of what he did, he did for the reasons of living a better life with his wife and child where they'd be safe and we all know how that turned out for him so like...

The city is not "Earth with our current society but a little different and quirky" it's a society where people do shitty things on the regular just to get by, to survive at the bare minimum.

If we judge individuals of that universe using their in world circumstances it's actually interesting how people who in our world would be shitty horrible awful no good people are basically your run of the mill asshole no different from that Karen at starbucks who yells at the barista, is that a horrible asshole thing to do? Absolutely, but it doesn't mean I think said Karen deserves like, death or something; she's just a dick but that's not like uniquely dickish.

By Proj Moon standards this dude sounds like a petty thief and a dick at worst, not like some super villain who's experimenting on children or murdering people for the sake of their own enjoyment and empowerment. Sure it sounds like he's a manipulative asshole but he's not AYIN or like, any of the Ensemble who arguably were bigger dicks for their actions (outside of victims like Philip who turned to the Ensemble for arguably sad reasons and yes should still be held accountable for their shitty behavior but weren't as bad as say the lady who wanted to kill people because only the strong deserve to live or some shit.)

[ahmedmootaz]

Personally, I quite dislike the Dante = X/Ayin theory, in part because of how what (admittedly little) we've seen of their past self acts completely different from him and also because it would make the world seem a lot smaller, yknow?

But I would very much like to see him again, this time talking through the light in a similar way to Carmen. He's a man who spent so much of his time devoting himself to some else's dream, what would he think of what it's become, of what *she's* become during all this time?

With the knowledge gained through his time as X, as well as his insights towards his own self from the other A's as well as his guilt from his actions, I feel as if he's more poised towards becoming a guiding light to others, an alternative from Carmen's overwhelming acceptance of one's current self. Especially as Dante has shown a lack of self esteem and prioritises others over themselves, I think it would do them some good to have a conversation or two with Ayin. With some of their abilities seemingly having a connection with the light (like how they can tell monsters, distortions and abnormalities apart as well as being able to hear the voices of distortions) I do think it's a possibility in the future of Limbus' story - though farther from where we are now.

In the Divine Comedia, there is a part wherein Dante becomes aligned with God's love, and given how A and C are basically God in the light, I believe that at one point or another wherein their goals may align, fighting together for or against something or other.

Sorry for rambling, but to summarise: I feel as if Ayin as a character is one better suited to act as a guiding hand in Limbus rather than going through it all as another blank slate. His current status as one in the light allows for him to act as more of a mentor, which I believe suits him better.

Dear Anonymous,

Yeah, I agree that bringing Ayin back through the same 'twist' of LC would be a tad lame, which is why I do think it would be a much, much better way to say that he's in the Light, but at the same time, part of me wonders if his character can be done justice like that.

I mean, we knew enough about Carmen to realise that she's definitely changed from her pre-Light self, but I simply don't feel we've gotten enough of Ayin on screen, and given how Carmen gets a lot more spotlight than he ever does and yet so far in Limbus her presence, while tangible for sure, is quite muted...Eh, I dunno. It could be the Ayin fan within me clamouring for him to get something more than the 15 minutes of screen time the PMverse gives him so far.

Although part of me does think he'd interact with Dante one way or another...maybe with him being the 'funny voice only the main character can hear' trope to some extent. After all, we know Carmen's voice in the Light is a lot more...eldritch, in a way, referring to her victims and Abnormalities as 'children' and pushing people to Distort...it would be funny if Ayin was just very normal, snarky, and wholly unsupportive in comparison.

-"And there it goes. Your chance to get a Golden Bough. You lost it to a circus of madmen and a woman old enough to be your granny."

="Listen man I'm trying here okay?!"

-"Yeah, guess what, I also tried in life and it didn't stop people from trying to tear me a new one. Man up and take the scorn like you're meant to."

="I got some Golden Boughs before you showed up and started talking in my head, you know?!"

-"Yes, and now I'm wondering if those were flukes."

="Why are you like this?"

-"Do you want an alphabetical list or a numerical one?"

Hehe, thank you for sharing your thoughts, Anon! Until next time, be well, take care, and see ya'!

[lightkidshenannies]

here's some very scattered thoughts/headcanons about the elders

Daleth - raised Alef after ushering stargazer and rejecting voyager die from darkstone sickness, feels responsible for the death of the kingdom caused by Resh in the Shattering, was closest to Resh the Edenstone when it Shattered which is why his mask is broken + beard gone when we first see his cutscene in the game (also I think it's interesting to note that in the Hebrew alphabet daleth is very very similar to alef like from my English-speaking non-Jewish understanding there's just like a stroke of a pen's difference)

Ayin - soft mans, in every way. genuinely so nice it annoys the shit outta Samekh especially during competitions, gets along best with Teth and Lamed and Daleth, WILL cry if you bring up the Priestess, brother to Tsadi, devastated by what has happened to the realms due to pollution and desperately craves The Old Kingdom back in its natural pre-industrialized state

Teth - b u f f b l a c k s m i t h, in love with the Priestess and if you bring her up it's Hammer Time, feels like a second mom/aunt to the Twins + partially inspired their competitiveness, created their prosthetics after Resh found a way to power darkstone with light, sister to Lamed, feels little remorse for what happened to her realm + temple but the remorse IS there

Samekh - conjoined twins of the Priestess, originally only had one eye each then lost their conjoined arms in surgery performed by Lamed and replaced with prosthetics designed by Teth. Both are more concerned about reaching new heights than maintaining where they've been, though Sah is more contemplative and looks Back more than Mekh does, bringing marginal balance to their aspirations

Tsadi - that big big helmet hides the dopiest face. he made the mistake of taking it off around Teth once and n e v e r a g a i n the teasing was so bad. brother to Ayin, uses the big tough guy putting-down-rebellions-and-defending-the-Vault exterior to compensate for feelings of both personal and political/ruling inadequacy, as he allowed his realm to be ravaged at the behest of his leader. Injured in the Shattering because he was standing next to Daleth, takes this extremely personally and it injured his self-image even more because at least before he could defend his realm and the next. now he feels useless, like a broken spear, incapable of properly defending his polluted, krill-infested realm

Lamed - also severely injured in the Shattering but not as badly as Daleth. second adoptive mother to the twins after the death of the Priestess, sister to Teth, totally not in love with the Priestess what are you talking about, struggles to maintain the nun-like image that she cultivated due to personal relationships with the other Elders (hard to stay professional around Family), but would rather get shattered again than break decorum around the other ancestors, meditation friends with Ayin, sister to Teth, thrilled with the invention of darkstone memory lanterns but devastated to learn what must be sacrificed to create even one. haunted by the hundreds of lanterns in the Vault - what wonderful tomes of knowledge, but at what cost

The Priestess - mother to the twins, forbidden yuri with Lamed, was best friends with Ayin. used to braid Tsadi's hair before her death, and it took him a long time to redo it after her passing, first of the Elders to Fall to the realms, which is why she's so integral to the architecture, adores the very mountains and clouds that became her realm, worships Megabird and her cycle as Holy, would have been d e v a s t a t e d by the effects of the Shattering + what it did to the kingdom and her Family

Prince Alef - I'm a sucker for Chosen Ones Who Become Corrupted. Little Alef didn't stand a chance, prophesied before he fell by the Priestess to become the god-king of Sky. watched countless children around him die in trials that only he was fated to be able to complete, and after completion of the trials most of his identity was stripped away to Maintain His Image, and he slowly adopted the persona that was pushed on him and after invention of functional darkstone he Ascended as King Resh, as the darkstone allowed connections between realms that weren't wind paths or cloud swaths and provided other assistance that we see in-game

King Resh - [longest yeah boi ever] after Ascending as King, Resh was absolutely beholden to the pressures of the realms and the other elders, pushing for more prosperity, pushing for more darkstone inventions, pushing pushing pushing until he snapped and flipped the script - we're doing this now, this insane project to build a giant darkstone to power the whole kingdom, how dare you question your King? This will surely bring Ultimate Prosperity and they will finally let me Rest... the Edenstone shattered, an overblown circuit exploding in everyone's face exactly how much of a disastrous failure he had become as a leader. he's trapped in the edenstone, suffering constant Storm, tortured eternally for the suffering brought to the realm and creatures of light. he (and Daleth) await the day that Eden can be healed, when he can finally escape that hell and maybe, just maybe, start making up for the damage he's caused. he's still Alef, after all, still a scared little boy who didn't understand why so much was being asked of him, still so desperate to Please