#people go “so you hate rhaenyra? misogyny.”

[saintsunfyre]

i think we should start calling people who hate criston cole misandrists.

[crimsonbastard]

"Criston Cole is an Incel! He called Rhaenyra slurs! He killed Innocent People! He led his men to a fiery death!"

Blah blah blah, I couldn't care less about him calling a White Woman of noble birth slurs, especially when the said woman carelessly endangered him and treated him as a sneaky link (He literally told her to "stop" and tried to walk away. Don't give me a hateful 10 Page essay on how he should've yeeted her or ran to Viserys, when he's her literal employee. I'll just fucking block you).

Calling Women Slurs? who doesn't in that sad medieval world? Women call Women slurs, Men call Women Slurs, it's misogyny battle royale, although it doesn't make it right, I would rather have him have beef with One Woman of higher class who personally wronged him rather than disrespect sex workers (which he doesn't). He in fact treats them respectfully.

He killed Innocent People!

- Nobody cares about Joffrey. Even if they do, they just bring him up to hate Cole and accuse him of homophobia. Honestly speaking, I would rather have Cole kill him in a tourney than a wedding.

- Beesebury, bro killed another Team Black Glazer? So what? Daemon gets brownie points for killing Vaemond who was speaking the truth about Rhaenyra committing treason by putting her bastsrds up for the Throne and Driftmark (the writers are so biased that they made him call her a whore just so that they can distract us from the fact that he was making sense), but Cole killing Beesebury who was accusing Alicent of committing Regicide is a big no?

Led his men to death by dragon fire. The keyword being "led his men". He WAS on the Battlefield, he was fighting alongside his men, he was getting his hands dirty, and he too was prepared to die for the cause.

He didn't sit back and grab a bucket of popcorn as he watched his men die. He fought with them and he would've died too if it weren't for the fluke of him falling.

He doesn't take responsibility for his faults.

- He asks Alicent to give him a merciful death when he willingly confessed his sin of sleeping with Rhaenyra.

- He tries to kill Himself after the wedding, if it weren't for Alicent.

- He's still suicidal and nihilistic, but only keeps going for Alicent.

Now comes the disclaimer that yes he can be hated for his crimes. But I'll say this, overhating his character is no longer funny, it has gone to the point where he's being placed in the same tier list as Joffrey, Ramsey and Daemon. Like people, he's not some psychopath who tortures and mutilates people after hunting them down with hounds, nor is he a rich privileged brat who sees people as playthings to inflict his cruelty on. Or someone who bashes his wife's head with a rock or orders hits on toddler's.

He's a douchebag for sure. But placing him in THAT tier with THOSE characters? Really?

[thesunfyre4446]

the way that some people talk about helaena is just disgusting.

you have the people that straight up say that they're looking forward to b&c & don't care about her at all. which is fine i mean at least you're honest (though can't understand why anyone would be looking forward to seeing a 6yo kid get brutally murdered but ok)

then you have the people who try and "claim" helaena as TB. they say that helaena hates her family & her mom & her family is the reason that her life was ruined - and not b&c and maelor's death caused by rhaenyra and daemon. and it's so obvs they're just using that as an excuse to justify their favs horrible actions.

helaena's family did not ruin her life.

in the book it was viserys that arranged her marriage to aegon. so don't go crying in the comments about "the book", in the show the alternative is jace - and alicent was not about to let her daughter become rhaenyra's unofficial hostage. the twins are obvs not 6 and were aged down so show!helaena gave birth prob at 17. (these kids are not 6) by marrying aegon, helaena gets to stay at home with her family.

helaena is not suicidal. there is nothing in the show or the book to indicate that she is suicidal or depressed. she's described as a happy girl in the book and in the show we don't really get a lot of scenes with her but there's 0 indication to her being depressed. helaena committed suicide because of her children's death. the greens did not kill her children.

helaena does not hate her children. literally stfu. you can claim that because she's a teen mom (rhaenyra was also a teen mom but i digress) motherhood is prob not easy for her. but the fact that some people say that she hated her kids as a way to justify b&c is disgusting.

helaena being portrayed as neurodivergent & sensitive to touch does not mean that she can't or doesn't love her family. this take makes me want to scream. one of my best friends is also extremely sensitive to touch. she rarely lets her mom hug her and that's OK. everyone has different boundaries.

stop infantilizing helaena!!!!!!!!!!!!! she's an adult!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and all of these excuses are somehow supposed to make b&c and maelor's death look less bad & daemyra less guilty. oh, daemon had her child brutally murdered before her eye? nah, she hated her children anyway lol rhaenyra drove her to suicide? well, she was always depressed and suicidal so it's not that big of a deal... (and don't even get me started on the "why didn't she just go to rhaenyra on dragonstone" as if she'd ever betray her family & like her own sons weren't also at risk if rhaenyra became queen)

i really can't. mind you, these are the people that scream and cry misogyny but are willing to use another female character in such a cynical and sinister way to justify their favs action. and yes, i'm calling it sinister because it feels VERY sinister. the discourse about helaena makes me so uncomfortable. (and the discourse around jaehaera is also disturbing af)

sorry about the rant.

[rainy-writers]

When are y’all gonna get it through your heads that no one actually cared if the Velaryon boys were bastards or not? They could have come out with white hair, violet eyes, the whole shebang and the rumor still would have been spread because it was meant to undermine RHAENYRA and her claim, nothing else!!

It was a misogynistic attempt to paint her as reckless and irresponsible and another way for the greens to push for Aegon. It was fear mongering, meant to say “Hey! Choose Aegon because you guys don’t want a bastard on the throne, right?” And it didn’t fucking work, save for on the idiot audience that still eats this shit up and genuinely believes that the dance happened bc Harwin and Rhaenyra weren’t married, rather than realizing the whole theme is MISOGYNY!! ITS ABOUT USURPING A WOMAN NO MATTER WHAT SHE DOES, SOLEY BC SHES A WOMAN AND NOTHING ELSE!!

If she had no kids = Vote for Aegon cause she’s barren!!

If she had kids = Vote for Aegon cause they’re bastards!!

If she has kids that look exactly like her = Vote for Aegon bc her kids are clearly Daemon’s bastards am I right? Vote Aegon bc he’s clearly the more responsible of the two with his trueborn kids!!

It. Does. Not. Matter.

And it makes me so mad, especially when people say that the realm wouldn’t have accepted Jace like DUDE. Nobody is just casually going around saying these kids are bastards, save for the people that KNOW they can get away with it if they’re caught bc Viserys wouldn’t dare punish them. Aka:

Alicent, Otto, and her nightmare kids. That’s it. No, some random Lord in the Reach wasn’t preaching about Jace, Luke, and Joff being bastards. I sincerely hate to burst your bubble (NOT!) but you guys as an audience care more than the actual people that live in this world and it’s so funny.

Basic media literacy will tell you that NO, Westeros did not care. How do I know? Well it’s simple really. If they cared then majority of them simply wouldn’t pledge to support Rhaenyra, clearly knowing that Jace is her heir??

I mean, these are all of the houses that supported Rhaenyra AND Jace:

I mean do yall honestly think Cregan Stark thought Jace was a bastard when he swore an oath in BLOOD with Jace, marched PERSONALLY to the south AFTER Jace was dead, and tried to literally kill the CHILDREN of the Lord’s who rose up against him and Rhaenyra?

Do you think Lady Jeyne gaf when she personally pledged to support him? Lord Manderly? Hm.

No, they didn’t lmao.

So please, kill this narrative that “There was going to be rebellion if Jace ascended the throne” and “The realm wouldn’t accept him bc all of them secretly knew he was a bastard despite having no proof because his father, his grandfather and THEIR KING never said otherwise.”

It would not have happened y’all. And one day you blood purist, Velaryon boys haters are going to get it through your head that YES !! They were legitimate because no one ever said otherwise. It was never proven. Rumor isn’t proof. Hair isn’t proof for fucks sake. You need actual words from Laenor himself saying that RHAENYRA cheated and those boys are Harwin’s. You need Corlys passing over Luke for Driftmark and outright saying it’s because he’s a bastard to even get a SHREAD of doubt from the great houses.

One day you guys are going to realize that those boys were loved and no matter how much you try and discredit them, they will always be legitimate. Whether you like it or not, Viserys was content with Jace being on the throne after him, THE REALM was content, and Corlys Velaryon was ready to die peacefully knowing Luke was going to be after him. Hell, he damn near handed that boy the keys so don’t you dare say Luke didn’t deserve to inherit anything.

And sorry for the long post but some of yall are really starting to piss me off. Never mind that this is fiction, your attitude towards these boys is disguising and saying that they don’t deserve a good life, that they dont deserve things that were literally GIVEN to them with no complaints, and even going as far as to call them dirty or saying they deserve to die all because their mommy and daddy weren’t married is fucking disgusting.

This “bastards don’t deserve anything,” attitude needs to stop being preached by real life people. Hell, some of the people saying this are literally in the wedding photos of their own parents wedding LMAO. It concerns me on how much disregard you guys have for adopted kids (which is basically what they are to Laenor), and I’d hate to see the shit you preach in real life. Acting like blood actually matters in order for someone to be considered family.

Because regardless of what you believe, had their mother not been usurped because she was a WOMAN, Jace would have ruled, Luke would’ve gotten Driftmark and, yes, the world of Westeros would’ve kept fucking spinning.

By law these boys were legitimate and people seem to forget they came out of Rhaenyra’s coochie so REGARDLESS, they are Targaryen. Like unless Viserys or Daemon was their father, they were always going to be half NOT Targaryen lol…Just like Alicent’s kids. It just so happens that they’re half Strong, but again, it doesn’t matter, because Jace gets his claim from RHAENYRA, not his father, so even if Harwin was married to Rhaenyra he still would’ve been the heir?? Even if it wasn’t Laenor who was his father, he’d still be heir because of his mother and being married to someone does not change that.

Some people even go as far as to argue that they’re not Targaryen so Jace shouldn’t be the heir which is stupidest thing I’ve ever heard and the most blatant case of misogyny ever. Like unless your father cloned himself then you STILL get half your genes from your mother dumbass. They are as much Targaryen as the Hightower kids with their DARK HARIED PARENT, it just so happens that their Targ side is from a woman, not a man. Which, like I said, if you don’t consider them Targaryen just bc they don’t get their claim from their father then we know what you are. 🙃

But anyways, to make a long post short, yes these boys are legitimate, they were recognized as such by:

The King himself (who they’d be inheriting from)

Rhaenyra

Laenor (their father, who they’d be inheriting from and wanted Luke to have Driftmark)

Corlys (their grandfather, who Luke would be inheriting from and wanted Luke to have Driftmark)

Rhaenys

The Realm

History

And if you still don’t believe me, here’s the official Targaryen family tree from Fire and Blood which all of Westeros sees :)

You see how they’re listed as Velaryon? You see how they’re directly linked to Laenor and there’s no little astric saying how they’re bastards? Yeah me too.

PS - Read Fire and Blood as well. This whole argument about them being bastards is literally stemmed from no more than two paragraphs, IF that. And their legitimacy is never brought up again.

[unicoo]

The way we watch Alicent get pimped out by her dad, sworn to secrecy by the king, forced into a marriage with the same man (who isold enough to be her dad), maritally raped by said old ass husband & forced to carry his heirs in quick succession, all while still growing up herself and losing her only friend…….yet somehow, someway, there are people out there who………blame Alicent…the child? Book!Alicent is a different story, but to sit and WATCH show!Alicent go through all of this manipulation and grooming and abuse, and hate her?! Yeah some of y’all are sick 😭 I’m not even joking because like…..what?!

We are supposed to feel bad for Rhaenyra being forced to marry………but not Alicent? Why? Someone tell me why & quickly!! And don’t you dare say “sHE seDucEd vISerYs”, no, she was manipulated and then told to keep it secret by her king! He knew it was wrong yet didn’t gaf, so where is his hate? Are we being hypocrites guys?

We are supposed to feel bad for Rhaenyra & her kids, but not Alicent & hers who were ignored and treated like shit? Once again where is Viserys’ hate? QUICKLY, tell me!!! He’s neglecting his kids guys, we don’t support that do we?

We are supposed to hate Alicent for how she treated Rhaenyra, but not Rhaenyra for how she treated Alicent? (Especially when it was shown Alicent was trying and she didn’t become hateful until RHAENYRA LIED to her) Why, tell me, tell me, tell me. And don’t you dare say “sHE BEtRayEd hEr bY mARryInG ViSeRYs” SHE DIDNT HAVE A CHOICE!!! If we know Rhaenyra didn’t and we feel oh so bad for her, and we know most noble women don’t have a choice, then why are we mad at Alicent like she did? tell me please I BEG!

We scream girl boss for Rhaenyra wanted a son for a son, sorry make that sons for a son, yet Alicent is Beelzebub for wanting Justice for her son (WHO WAS A KID!!!! He hadn’t done shit yet, he was sweet and dragonless & got bullied, then maimed, YOU WOULD BE MAD TOO, lie & say you wouldn’t 😐) anyone who doesn’t understand Alicent’s motives behind the eye for an eye incident is either not a parent or is a heartless monster 🤷��♀️

Y’all quite literally watched Alicent’s villain origin story and said why she so mad? Are you…..are you seriously dumb or just fucking with me? 😭

Y’all are pro Rhaenyra because she’s a “feminist” yet y’all hate every women who isn’t Rhaenyra……to me it sounds like…….✨hypocrisy✨

And how does one stand for a war against misogyny only to participate in the misogyny themselves? 🤔

The dance is a war against misogyny yet……….no one is stopping the misogyny, just dressing it up with cute excuses and throwing the blame onto the other side………..

(Also like it’s not far fetched to believe Rhaenyra would’ve had Alicent’s kids dealt with, especially since she’s hated Aegon since before he was a baby. My guy was 2 and she was beefing with bro like…. And you can’t say “AliCEnt & OtTo didN’T lEt tHeM hAVE a rElAtiOnsHIP” ummm SHOWwise that is untrue Rhaenyra just didn’t wanna fuck with them kids 😂)

[theweirwoodfiles]

HOTD Fandom Behavior

This is going to be a little long winded but this has been on my mind for awhile.

Why does it seem like it's only team black that gets put in the hot seat for fan behavior? I understand that team black makes up the majority of the fandom, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't address the rampant misogyny that has been present in the team green fandom since day one that has gone unchecked. The show amplified the voices of misogynists who feel drawn to the story of the dance because they enjoy Rhaenyra's suffering and tragedy. Not to mention the other, actual fans, who still just hate her for whatever reason and can't do so without being misogynistic just helping normalize that kind of behavior.

And I'm not talking about "well I just like Aegon more than Rhaenyra", but the fixation on Rhaenyra's sex life and weight, the ai slop photos or wojaks where she's a misogynistic caricature, the fact that there is genuinely a huge portion of team green fans that cannot admit to their dislike of Rhaenyra without falling into misogyny. Those people are not outliers, and they've made themselves very comfortable in that part of the fandom. They feel no shame and sometimes even get viral posts.

"I'm not team black because the fans ruined it for me" but the team green fans calling Rhaenyra a fat ho or saying she deserves everything she gets for daring to have sexual agency didn't turn you off from being team green?

[alicentsgf]

why are people so pressed about how Alicent ends up this season??? Like hotd hasn’t been good since s1 people also criticized everything back then but tbh Alicent from s1 was always headed to where she ends up?? I thought it was common knowledge that her last choice would always going to be duty vs love and s1 stated very well that Rhaenyra is that freedom for Alicent???? I absolutely hated the things they put Alicent through (alicole sex and for what? All of her sons being a dick to her??) her arc this season was badly executed but to blame and think that the writers are catering to rhaenicents? seems a bit stretch when the ship is hated by the majority of the show. We can argue in the journey of how Alicent get to the point she is now but it was clear for the beginning that the head of TG?? She would never be, sometimes I think that thanks to most of the general viewers didn’t understand Alicent as a character the writers thought if we put her in these humiliating scenes the viewers would understand that she is a victim of the patriarchy and the men who surround her, but I guess not even with that the GA and fandom as whole could ever understand her character and honestly im good with it, she’s a walking contradiction and i have read her character like that since the beginning, good riddance tho to the obnoxious people that kept bad talking Olivia for only doing her job (this is not a dig to you but the extended fandom that are attacking Olivia again for her character)

Why are we upset now? Because we dared to hope lmao. And now we're realising theres absolutely no coming back from this (it was already mostly ruined i know).

I think the issue is the choice between duty and love should have been made when she chose her children and grandchildren over viserys wish for rhaenyra to rule. Choosing love didnt have to and shouldnt have meant choosing rhaenyra. Like finally FINALLY she lets herself cast duty aside, because "what is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms", "you never love anything in the world the way you love your first child", "you imbecile (affectionate)", etc etc. That is what works in line with the original story AND the sympathetic sides of alicent we saw with in season 1. Sure motherhood shouldn't define women but this is a story abt a fucking lineage !! What do people expect. Of course its going to be about parents and children.

F&B might have been bare bones, but it at least had a strong political backbone to it thats been completely removed this season. That direction would have offered more oppertunities for alicent to be explored as a multifacted character. The problem is that because they angled this as a story primarily about misogyny rather than a story about the inevitability of the targaryen line imploding, they maybe thought they couldnt do that without making alicent look like an unsympathetic agent of patriarchy. (Most of the audience read her that way anyway so they did a pretty crappy job avoiding it). Rhaenyra represented a certain freedom for alicent in the story, sure, im not against that at all, but for the writers to suggest literally being with Rhaenyra is what alicent needs to do to achieve freedom from duty? To free herself from the shackles or patriarchy?? (🙄) Its so laughable. Alicents little grandson had to have his head sown back on for his funeral and Rhaenyras faction sent the assassin. Her daughter was traumatised. You dont just fucking come back from that. Really we should have known when viserys died how this was gonna go and I think in some ways we did because a big number of us were upset with the misunderstanding then, we just didnt want to believe what this signaled about where they were taking alicent. People are upset now because alicents character has become totally unrectifiable. We just never believed they'd diverge so much from the known plot points of fire and blood.

As for this bit you said:

" I think that thanks to most of the general viewers didn’t understand Alicent as a character the writers thought if we put her in these humiliating scenes the viewers would understand that she is a victim of the patriarchy and the men who surround her, but I guess not even with that the GA and fandom as whole could ever understand her character and honestly im good with it, she’s a walking contradiction and i have read her character like that since the beginning."

I have thought this myself and unfortunately I think you're right. In an effort to make alicent sympathetic they have created the most convoluted character i've ever laid my eyes on. Towards the end of season 1 we were already saying her being so forgiving after driftmark made no sense, but i was compelled enough by her because of olivias performance of that scene with the knife to be willing to wait to see where they took her this season. And its been an exercise in more of the same stupid shit. The issues in season 1 have just been amplified by the realisation that season 2 is just the same thing again and again and again for alicent. Shes just a punching bag and im sure thats in an attempt to get the audience to feel bad for her, because i cant see any other reason for it, but its just so badly written that shes no longer compelling or interesting or likeable really at all. Theres nothing to root for when you dont know who someone is. I have so little to say about her this season and that hurts honestly. Olivias performances deserved much better writing.

[the-king-andthe-lionheart]

So I can't hold my tongue anymore...

It's funny, I decided to go into the ASOIAF tag yesterday for the first time in months and what do I find? Several posts about how "Bastards shouldn't inherit" or that "Bastards are EViL". If that is the brunt of your fucking argument then you all need to sit down and re-evaluate why your main argument relies on blood purity rhetoric and classism, and yes, often misogyny. "But...but...but..." you all must be saying "that's just how it was back then/in the books" and I have to answer with, "have you even read the books?" You know the books where almost all of the main protagonists and main characters are misfits and outcasts in some capacity? The books where GRRM is trying to dismantle the harmful prejudices put on people due to them being illegitimate, disabled, mentally ill, or women? The books where GRRM made it perfectly clear that the Dance only happened solely because Rhaenyra was a woman and nothing else and how that was clearly wrong? But how can I not be surprised considering the majority of you have never read the books or just misinterpreted them to fit your own prejudices. This fandom is truly toxic and supremely alienating and you all should be ashamed of yourselves for falling into this "Bastards are evil" bullshit. Do I have to remind you all that the main male protagonist in the books is a dark haired Targaryen bastard and many of you all root for him to become king, all the while simultaneously bad mouthing Rhaenyra's children, saying they shouldn't inherit, and laughing when they die? Talk about hypocritical. Anyway, if you are someone who is spouting vitriol against bastardry, touch some fucking grass, and re-evaluate why you are so passionately hateful against people being illegitimate. I mean, considering the sheer level of your online hatred for these characters it must surely be rooted into real life hatred of illegitimate people. And for anyone else reading this who actually understands the source material, I apologize for taking up your time and this isn't aimed at you.

Anyway, HOTD was a fucking mistake because it brought in a bunch of misogynistic, blood purists. Funny, because a lot of you are anti-Targaryen and condemn the Targaryen's for being "blood purists". I feel as if the pot is calling the kettle black.

[rynnthefangirl]

I get that it is pretty standard storytelling to stack the odds in favor of your villains in order to make the protagonists eventually success more satisfying… but it is so frustrating to see how the mood of Westeros at the start of the Dance was so flipped around from what it was in the books.

People WANTED to fight for Rhaenyra. She was the Realms Delight, Viserys’ Little Girl, the rightful heir. During Aegon’s coronation, Smallfolk murmured in hesitant confusion, occasionally shouting out “Long live Queen Rhaenyra!” The Starks, the Arryns, the Velaryons, and many more houses were 100% behind her. Even in the Reach, which should have been fully in the Hightowers pocket, many houses were declaring for Rhaenyra. She had the majority of the Houses in Westeros on her side! Meanwhile Otto was writing for foreign aid in a desperate attempt to get more support for their side.

The Greens believed that the Realm would side with Aegon due to misogyny and fear of retaliation, and were shocked at how much support Rhaenrya managed to garner. They usurped the throne not just bc they were willing to tear the realm apart for power (though they were) but bc they believed it would would not be necessary. But as it turns out, stealing a throne, slaying a peace envoy and your own nephew, and imprisoning/murdering lords for keeping their oaths does NOT make you popular. The Greens were doomed by their own arrogance. They themselves had no respect for oaths or loyalty, and assumed that the rest of the Realm was the same. They thought that as long as they had Kings Landing and Vhagar, they could bribe or threaten the houses into submission. But that was not the case. The Greens plan did NOT go as they wanted bc other houses were not as grasping and selfish as they expected. Not as grasping and selfish as they and their allies were.

But in the show?

-People hate Rhaenyra for the death of Jaehaerys, but absolutely nobody seems to give a shit that Aemond murdered his nephew, a 13 year old peace envoy. I don’t think he has even been called a kinslayer yet.

-The smallfolk all cheer at Aegon’s coronation (though I will give the show credit that the smallfolks attitudes are shifting against Aegon after the ratcatchers and parading of Meleys’ head, as they should).

-Jane Arryn, Rhaenys Targaryen, Corlys Velaryon all seem to resent Rhaenyra. It’s not even clear why they are fighting for her, as it seems to be with the greatest reluctance.

-The Brackens are the noble oathkeeping house that will burn before betraying their king, while the Blackwoods are evil underhanded murderers.

-Rather than the taking of Harrenhall being a decisive and important victory for the Blacks that shakes Aegon to his core, Daemon is floundering to get any support while all the Riverlords hate him and call him and Rhaenrya a tyrant.

-The Freys are only reluctant allies, again solely for whatever they can get for it.

At this point, the only ones that seems to pose any sort of threat to the Greens is their own leaders. Certainly not any of the Blacks. I’m not even sure why Criston Cole is bothering to take smaller castles around Kings Landing instead of just marching his men to Harrenhall. They’ve talked about it being the key to the Riverlands, and it’s not as though Daemon has a host there (or seemingly any firm support from anyone but House Blackwood). So go take it! What they hell are they waiting for?

Despite the brutal losses of Rhaenys and Jace, the Blacks take both Harrenhall and then Kings Landing quite decisively and with little bloodshed. Rhaenrya’s downfall is due to her own descent into grief, vengeance, and paranoia following the death of her children and multiple betrayals, combined with the insanity sweeping KL and the realm due to the stolen crown treasury and the horrific war crimes being rained down upon the realm (thanks Aemond, Daeron, Dalton, Ulf, and Hugh).

As it stands though, I’m reminded of Game of Thrones S7-8, where Cersei is able to do anything she wants with no backlash while Daenerys and hated and betrayed for her every action, despite Dany being an infinitely better person and ruler. I mean, it’s not quite at that level, but it is in the same ball field.

Stakes are good and all, but let the leaders of Team Black be as cool as they were in the books. And let Rhaenyra be flawed, let the burden of the war force her to make bad and vengeful decisions. While I certainly don’t want Rhaenyra to be totally demonized and it should not all be on her, we’ve swung too far the other way. The show’s depiction of Team Black needs balance. And the Greens need to face consequences for what they do.

[horizon-verizon]

I read this thread that I found quite interesting if you want to check it out

https://x.com/darksvster/status/1817785978708480244

Rhaenyra is in a way turning into a cult leader a la Paul Atreides, believing herself to be the prince who was promised, recruiting smallfolk who have nothing to lose and sending them to their deaths to fight in her name, its a very prevalent theme actually. The dragon keepers being appalled by the massacre this will cause but her insisting on it, its a descent into self glory and obsession. The more she gets closer to the Iron Throne the more it corrupts her which is why I’m absolutely sure they will include her getting cut as soon as she sits on it. Let’s face it, as much as I hate to admit it, misogyny isn’t a main theme in HOTD.

When I heard Ryan described this scene as cult behaviour and Rhaenyra acting as a “pastor”, my mind went straight to the Shepherd (a strong follower of the Faith of the Seven), they’d be the different sides of the same coin, Rhaenyra brought down these gods, here they slaughtered the smallfolk but at the Storming of Dragonpit, it’s the smallfolk destroying them.

And if you take into consideration that the prophecy was proven false in GOT and how HOTD is trying to hammer down the idea that monarchies and especially Targaryen ones are terrible, it leads you to the idea that anyone who thinks them selves as the savior is a false prophet. Viserys told her about the prophecy to make her pursuit of the throne more legitimate and peaceful, however it ended up making her more unhinged because she now believes herself a prophet when its all a farce, neither she nor her descendants will be the saviors IN SHOW LORE (please don’t misunderstand me, I know that in the books, the prince that was promised and Azor Ahai are Daenerys and no one else).

Didn't watch the episode, so this is pretty helpful and explains a lot why I kept seeing Rhaenys-cult leader in my Twitter timeline. How interesting...

Always remember that Condal came from a Catholic school (I also did but you don't see me trying to make a canonically family/woman who never really had much enthusiasm for religion religiously cultish...)

Rhaenyra never tried to build any sort of cult around herself or dragons

dragons always choose their own rider, so the dragonkeepers protesting Rhaenyra having lowborns have access to dragons is more classism than religiousness still wouldn't make any sense besides bc 1) they'd be going against their dragon-gods' wishes/authority 2) there's no proof of them even coming from Valyrian families... unlike in the orig lore, in the show they seem to be randos who can speak Old Valyrian and have ritualistic practices concerning dragons as literal gods/reps of gods

Old Valyrian dragonlords were never particularly religiously "devoted" or defined themselves through gods even with them having their own gods as they had a multireligious state in Old Valyria....at least comparatively to other peoples, inlcu the andals, who are actually the ones who you'd say were religiously cultish with their carving Seven symbols in their foreheads and later talking something close to Manifest destiny to explain how/why the fled Essos (when it was more liekly bc of the Valyrians)

the dragonkeepers have never in all of history been in the authority to deny a Targ anything based on any sort of separate and independent authority OR religious beliefs bc their role was just to guard dragons/their eggs/their lairs

AND

that he's mainly trying to create a story he's always wanted to see as a fan of GRRM's work (BigThink article):

So, yeah, all this matters for the exact direction you predict and I dislike this concept.

[nessest]

nothing screams misogyny more than people blaming alicent for aegon's injuries, yes she was spiteful towards him, but does that mean he should go to battle drunk? do we also forget that cole and aemond planned the whole thing behind his back? cole is his hand, but he didn't tell him the actual plan. they could have told him what their plans were, they could have included him and not made him feel like he was getting undermined (which was his main issue anyway);

people wonder how can alicent ask to be made regent, when it is her fault that aegon is bedridden, while aemond is sitting on that same table and got promoted!!!!!!!!!!! he let him get into a tough spot with rhaenys, he burned him and almost let rhaenys get away - the guy is stupid, killing their own king, dragon and letting the enemy go - bravo!!!

alicent got more hate for being mean to aegon and ''sending him to his death'' than aemond did for burning his brother.

when Otto, his grandfather was yelling at him for the rat catchers (which he showed more emotion towards) - everyone was laughing, it doesn't matter that Aegon is 'grieving' his son, it doesn't matter that it was this interaction and ''is that what you think'' (for viserys making him heir) which what made him cry later. that was funny, but alicent walking out? she is horrible!!!!!!!!

i don't even care she ''betrayed'' her sons, i care for the fact that she pretends she has nothing to do with the usurpation and wants to wash her hands out of it. she started the whole thing, her anger towards rhaenyra, it wasn't fear. how can we even claim she was afraid of her when she made her life hell, why would you do that towards someone who's gonna kill you? her husband was one foot in the grave, her sons small children, but she did her best to antagonize rhaenyra; that is not how someone who is afraid behaves. thats what annoys me; - but alicent 'betraying' her fraction got so much more hate than Aemond ever did for what happened with Aegon, if it wasn't for Criston he would have finished him off.

[lemonhemlock]

The truth about Alicent Hightower: why is she so disliked?

https://youtu.be/t9HjamrAMfU?si=QpoUMPQQSuTWmovz

I found this video on YouTube. I didn't watch the video, but I did read the comments, and many of them were negative toward Alicent. I want to know your thoughts on this video.

The comments are negative towards Alicent because the creator's request for engagement consisted of asking her audience to share why they disliked Alicent. Though I do feel inclined to enquire myself: why are you asking me to react to this video if you haven't even watched it?

Many of these talking points I have already addressed in my lengthy meta posts over time:

There is a conflation of Alicent from the books and Alicent from the show. Show!Alicent was not sent to comfort Jaehaerys and is more innocent and trusting that book!Alicent because she is younger.

Alicent is hated by many viewers for "seducing" Viserys. The creator says she doesn't and denies that people blame her for that, but they do. It's an easily-verified, observable reality and, thus, a strange thing to even say.

Jace/Helaena is not an advantageous marriage for the greens.

"Why was Otto spying on Rhaenyra?" It's literally his job. "He deserved to be fired". It's literally his job to be spying on everyone and report the information back to the King.

The Hightowers are faced with the fait accompli that Aegon will not be named heir. They went into the marriage fully believing that Alicent's sons would overtake Rhaenyra in the line of succession, as was the social norm.

It ultimately comes back to what I was talking about these last few days. This is the result of a conflation of several factors:

ignorance about what medieval social and economic arrangements actually were (what is feudalism? what is manorialism?);

stubbornly clinging to the notion that Westeros is an absolutist monarchy and that "the King's word is law";

downplaying the bastard issue, i.e. refusing to acknowledge how concerning the division of the marital estate was to inheritors and blaming it entirely on misogyny-fueled sex-negativism;

having no concept of what common law is or how it functions.

People can't let go of this image that Westeros is a capitalist modern state with an authoritarian leader (the King). And dragons. (It's Russia, basically. The dragons are bears).

Most of TB's discourse contains some combination of the above, which is why, honestly, at this point, if people are so invested in still talking about this, I would truly suggest a primer in medieval history, because this is getting ridiculous. These reasonings are just not rooted in a tangible basis of reality and trying to engage with them is like fighting windmills.

In the same vein, I wish people would stop bringing up the point of Alicent misunderstanding that Viserys changed his mind on his death bed. I get it, you think it's a dumb argument, but, lo' and behold, it's actually lifted straight from real history and, to the shock of thousands of Twitter users, it worked. What now? Stephen of Blois truly is crying in the afterlife because you think this little trick of his lacks realism. 🤦‍♀️

[thesunfyre4446]

The lord who support aegon didn't do so because they hate woman, but because they see them as inferior to man. The green's propaganda was based only on misogyny (same the lord who support aegon) , and that funny cause they rely on the same system who basically destroy alicent and haelena's life. I really do not understand female who are team green, they basically based everything on the subjugation of women and their inability to govern and they rely on a system that sees them only as churning out children. Aemond said "rhaenyra may call herself queen but she has women's part", aegon's men cut off Rhaenyra's breasts to awaken Sunfyre, lord borros otto Jasper and many others spend their life claiming a son came before an older daughter (and for what reasons?), lord pike (im not sure of his name but he is one of aegon' supporter who survive the dance) was describe as "a men who fought to prevent the accession of a woman to the throne". It doesn't matter that rhaenyra have bastards cause people were plotting her usurpation wayyy before her marriage (it wouldn't matter if she were jaehaerys himself born again, rhaenyra is a woman. Otto's word on ep. 3. He admit that rhaenyra may have been the perfect princess and thos still wouldn't prevent her from usurpation). Do you really feel represented by them? Rhaenyra may not be a femminist but it's undeniable that her ascension to the throne would have been a great step forward for women and that she had all the cards in order to become a good queen. It is sufficient to see her positions the council in ep 6, how she always manages to remain calm in front of horrible circumstances (such as the driftmark petition or the black council), how she rule peaceably dragonstone for years. Obviously the war, the usurpation and the death of all her children made her lose her head (as is normal). But if that hadn’t happened she would have been a good queen, definitely better than alicent, Aegon or anyone else. And please do not say that this was the vision of the time because things can change, our society is not equal to the medieval

ohhhh i love this ask so much

ok so first of all, different lords supported the greens for different reasons. misogyny was def one of them!! @green-aeggs-and-spam made a really great post about this :

so now let's talk about the greens themselves :

otto : while i do believe that otto is a misogynist , his main reason for wanting aegon on the throne is to be the grandfather of the king = personal interests. like if he was aemma's father you know he'd be selling "equal rights for women" T-shirts lol

alicent : wants aegon on the throne because if rhaenyra will ascend the throne her children will die. the patriarchy might have ruined her life, but she also has something to gain from it - the system supports aegon as king and keeps her children safe. so as much as she hates & was hurt by the westerosi patriarchal system her family's survival is dependent upon upholding it. same with helaena , her own children will also be in danger if rhaenyra ever became queen. (i've made a post about why rhaenyra would have to kill alicent's sons when she ascends the throne : https://www.tumblr.com/thesunfyre4446/739501560667734016/ok-so-ive-been-getting-a-lot-of-rhaenyra-would?source=share)

criston : pre ep 4, he was very much team rhaenyra. he didn't seem to have a problem with her inheriting over aegon, he's dornish, so that might seem very normal to him. criston supports the greens because of his hatred towards rhaenyra & love towards alicent = he's a man driven entirely (some may say a little too much haha) by his feelings.

so of course the greens are going to try and uphold the patriarchy, because - while it also ruined alicent's life - they have everything to gain from that system being kept. their lives are dependent on it & their political power.

no, i don't feel represented by alicent. i don't need to feel represented by a character in order to love & support them. of course that I believes in equal rights & am a feminist. but i don't need the fictional characters i like to represent my values. westeros is not a real place, alicent & rhaenyra are not real people. i don't need to pick the the team who'd be better for the realm - [ though i don't think that the blacks would be better to the realm then the greens]. - i'm going to root for the characters that i find interesting & love.

my main reason for disliking rhaenyra is that i find her character boring and lacks interesting inner conflict. also, as you've said, rhaenyra is not a feminist. rhaenyra is team rhaenyra, and that's fine! she wants the throne for her own personal reasons, and when she's queen she doesn't do anything to help other women - she even refuses other firstborn daughter to be named heirs because it would destabilize the realm = rhaenyra has no intention to "break the wheel". she's not dany. so would her reign have been a step forward to all women? i honestly don't know, because a woman sitting on the throne does challenge the patriarchy, but rhaenyra herself has shown no interest in helping & advancing other women. (not to mention lowborn women).

another great post by @blackcat419.

[greenqueenhightower]

I can understand why people like Rhaenyra. I can understand why Alicent isn't to everyone's taste. I still don't understand how she is so hated for behaving like a human considering the gaslighting and abuse she's been through, and how she has much less free agency than Rhaenyra. It was reading through the horrific and vitriolic extreme takes on Alicent that made me side with her. And something about Rhaenyra and her mean diehards just remind me so much of white feminism. I feel like it's no coincidence I see way more WoC tending to sympathize with Alicent, as a WoC myself. The gaslighting and watching someone else consistently get away with things you wouldn't while being trapped in a cage is all too relatable. The rules dont apply to Rhaenyra and Rhaenyra only. And seeing Rhaenyra being the only one in the narrative made to look extra sympathetic (like the double birth scenes, as if all births aren't horrific and like Alicent didn't give birth even younger too). I also hate how despite their efforts in diverse casting, black actors are just backdrops or tools to make Rhaenyra and TB look better and how they're disposable to move the plot forward for her. This matter has been brought up in the TG subreddit thank God I was not the only one who saw that. Now it seems like they're even butchering B&C to absolve TB. 🙂🙃 Girl I am not ready for the blind Rhaenyra dickriding and Alicent victim blaming to come this season. You'll know it'll be misogyny and double standards all around. The suffering Alicent endured in Season 1 will be even more disregarded.

Hi anon! 💚

Alicent isn't to everyone's taste because to understand her character, motivations, and aspirations, one needs to take the whole show as context, instead of some stand-alone scenes that provide dissatisfaction or lack the "wow"/"badass" factor that the average got/hotd viewer is used to.

I understand how Rhaenyra's character appeals to people because she is the female Targaryen heir, desires the best for her children, and is determined to honor her cause and her late father's wishes to serve the realm. Rhaenyra believes so much in herself; Alicent doesn't. Rhaenyra's overconfidence, her "flouting to do as she pleases" is what is so attractive to a lot of viewers, me included, because, well, she doesn't give a damn. She can go against the conventions of her time because she has already entered the game in a good battle formation, has the means, and is ready to play it (I'm trying to go for a chess analogy here as we saw in the promo, bear with me).

Alicent on the other hand, has entered the game as a foreigner. She did not wish this, she has no historical ties to rulership, no dragon blood to base her confidence on, and no pride in taming and riding wild beasts. She is common as Rhaenyra is exotic. What Alicent has and brings to the game is "honor, duty, sacrifice." These values alone make Alicent compelling and intriguing because they are very subtle qualities and principles that one needs to notice to comprehend her character. They are not as easily identifiable as riding a dragon or slicing a wild boar.

Yet they are equally powerful, because as Rhaenyra plays the game in the open field, being free to make her own decisions, unstoppable in always getting what she wants and being able to claim it herself, Alicent plays the game behind closed doors, in septs, praying to the seven, following directions, seeking council, and moving strategically. Rhaenyra's battle is more visually impactful, but Alicent's is equally moving if one cares to observe and understand it properly.

Therefore, what you are saying about WoC standing by Alicent makes perfect sense because the motivations and experiences as well as the feeling of always having to try twice as hard to achieve what is simply given to others is a point of connection for WoC.

You also very poignantly highlight the show's "humanization" of Rhaenyra through two birth scenes, because again, she is this exotic being whom the audience loves to aspire to, but we must also not forget that she is special while also being human. Alicent's suffering in S1 very much humanizes her in my eyes and is precisely also what distinguishes her from a commoner. She becomes a strong woman who doesn’t shy away in the fear of danger, learns to hold her head high and pushes forward the interests of herself and her children. The hate Alicent receives is uncalled for, and it stems from a misreading of her character, despite being the most interesting character in hotd in my opinion.

I’m glad you decided to stan Alicent after reading all the horrific takes about her! There are so many people in the fandom who want to vilify her, but there are also many who totally connect to her and sympathize with her character, like queer people, WoC, etc.

I didn’t like what the show did with black characters in s1 either. They served mostly as props and had brutal deaths. For S2, it does seem as if the show will want to downgrade the events of B&C and continue emphasize the narrative of Rhaenyra’s superiority (and the Greens and Alicent will be blamed and hated a lot this season), but I honestly stopped reading leaks and spoilers because they affect me a lot. I’d rather wait and see what the producers decide to do with their portrayal and then comment on the events. I’m so scared about B&C though and how this will affect the Greens’ arc and their perception by the public, but again, I’ll be standing by Alicent’s side till the end lol. 💚

[bohemian-nights]

As a WOC, I will never be able to sympathize with Rhaenyra. She’s such an over privileged and lazy person. I just can’t bring myself to sympathize with her for getting usurped because I feel like that’s mainly her fault for being lazy and thinking she’s entitled to everything.

And then we have nettles. A girl who comes from nothing. She manages to claim a wild dragon, she fights for Rhaenyra’s cause and how does Rhaenyra repay her? By trying to murder her. How can anyone sympathize with Rhaenyra over nettles? This white woman’s trauma and paranoia do not excuse her trying to kill a black woman.

So many of her Stans like to pretend they have the moral high ground while also defending Rhaenyra trying to murder nettles.

Yeah, that’s my main complaint with her and why I get so frustrated when people think I’m being mean, petty, or overly critical about her character.

Yes, she is objectively a victim of the patriarchy, but she’s also a privileged white woman who tried to exercise her privilege by attempting to commit a racially motivated hate crime against a Black woman(Nettles).

And yes she’s a fictional character, but there have been so many women throughout history who have behaved in that same exact manner. Women who despite being discriminated against based on their sex still managed to punch down and ruin real lives, separated families, and got innocents killed all at their command.

I don’t know if this was GRRM's intention, but from my perspective as a Black woman, Rhaenyra is just another reflection of that painful history. She’s not someone I can project onto and see myself in even though she’s a woman. She’s still very much just a part of the machine(just in a feminine form).

Before anyone comes for me, it’s perfectly fine if you like Rhaenyra. Again she’s fictional, but not acknowledging what she represents and how she’s both oppressed and an oppressor means that you don’t acknowledge her victims or see the importance of characters like Nettles.

And if you have a hard time acknowledging and understanding how a fictional Black woman is being victimized by a white woman I doubt you’ll have a much easier time dealing with real life victims of racial violence.

Not to mention the fact that it’s incredibly offensive to see things like Nettles should be cut because there are five other Black-ish people in a mostly white cast and she’s unimportant and people only like her because she’s Black and yet have people swear up and down they don’t have a racist bone in their body.

This isn’t even getting into the people who have literally used the n-word compared Black characters to animals, and mocked Black hair and features. Just know you guys are the same cause racism isn’t limited to spewing out slurs.

Those statements(which are solely focused on her race) are very much rooted in anti-Blackness. Those statements are the epitome of reducing someone down to just their skin color and dismissing them because of that. Nettles may be fictional, but you are using racist tropes that have been pushed on Black(that we somehow aren’t deserving of our positions in life and are only where we are because of quotas and wokeness) to trash her character.

Nettles is an incredibly interesting character. Hell, even George finds her fascinating.

Of all the secondary characters in F&B she’s the one who he wanted to write a novella about. Her story has all the tropes that people usually like. Girl from nothing who despite all odds makes it and thrives. She’s there to teach a lesson, but they don’t see her worth because she’s Black. All they see is a Black face who they think doesn’t belong since she’s not a walking stereotype.

I’m not exactly shocked by this behavior, but it’s still stlrange asf to see people who scream up and down about misogyny(which is valid) then go on and perpetuate misogynoir without blinking an eye.

[atopvisenyashill]

I was reading your top five/ten asks thing and kinda laughed at the most annoying discussions hotd ask because that’s literally the entire fandom 😭

“RhAenYra is A MArY SuE” “ShE dOes NoThiNG” but the minute we saw a snippet of her her with a sword and wanting to do stuff but being denied and respecting those opinions, it’s a problem. Like all the problems with the showrunners, I feel like the overall development of Rhaenyra is something no one knows that to do with. some want her to be useless and others want her to fight, many want her to be angry but want her to be wrong all the time.

Some of it feels like some fans want an easy reason to hate her that doesn’t get them dragged for hating her for it (having sex/ having bastards) as if we aren’t getting to that point next season.

yeah, i saw people being like 'oh rhaenyra thought she ate with that' when she tells whatshisface that he has fought just as many battles as she has so she doesn't appreciate his lectures. and meanwhile these are the same people crying on and on about how beautiful and sad alicent looked when they named aemond the regent over her. like.......sorry that's just as stupid and misogynistic as the people going 'well i don't know why alicent is mad she has lost power when her power only comes from her husband' you don't understand why these women are struggling and biting back and fighting against the men who are consistently and obviously undermining them?? really????? yet earlier in the season when rhaenyra was truly doing nothing because she was working through her grief, it was all 'well she's so passive' just admit you don't like her and stop pretending like the issue is with the writing!!! we know i'm a hater of how they've adapted a lot of the chauvinism story lines from the books, but some people will see rhaenyra and alicent having a completely normal reaction to the misogyny they're facing and go 'oh she thinks she's hot shit' just say you don't like her!!! just fucking stand on it like!!!

and Y E S if i'v said it once i've said it a hundred times, people are huge prudes and buy into this insane fearmongering about bastards and having sex out of wedlock re: rhaenyra, and to those people i say you would have fallen for reagan's agitating about welfare queens and the evils of single motherhood hook line and sinker!!! you are disturbingly susceptible to propaganda bro idk what to tell you!!!