#people go “so you hate rhaenyra? misogyny.”

[saintsunfyre]

i think we should start calling people who hate criston cole misandrists.

[crimsonbastard]

"Criston Cole is an Incel! He called Rhaenyra slurs! He killed Innocent People! He led his men to a fiery death!"

Blah blah blah, I couldn't care less about him calling a White Woman of noble birth slurs, especially when the said woman carelessly endangered him and treated him as a sneaky link (He literally told her to "stop" and tried to walk away. Don't give me a hateful 10 Page essay on how he should've yeeted her or ran to Viserys, when he's her literal employee. I'll just fucking block you).

Calling Women Slurs? who doesn't in that sad medieval world? Women call Women slurs, Men call Women Slurs, it's misogyny battle royale, although it doesn't make it right, I would rather have him have beef with One Woman of higher class who personally wronged him rather than disrespect sex workers (which he doesn't). He in fact treats them respectfully.

He killed Innocent People!

- Nobody cares about Joffrey. Even if they do, they just bring him up to hate Cole and accuse him of homophobia. Honestly speaking, I would rather have Cole kill him in a tourney than a wedding.

- Beesebury, bro killed another Team Black Glazer? So what? Daemon gets brownie points for killing Vaemond who was speaking the truth about Rhaenyra committing treason by putting her bastsrds up for the Throne and Driftmark (the writers are so biased that they made him call her a whore just so that they can distract us from the fact that he was making sense), but Cole killing Beesebury who was accusing Alicent of committing Regicide is a big no?

Led his men to death by dragon fire. The keyword being "led his men". He WAS on the Battlefield, he was fighting alongside his men, he was getting his hands dirty, and he too was prepared to die for the cause.

He didn't sit back and grab a bucket of popcorn as he watched his men die. He fought with them and he would've died too if it weren't for the fluke of him falling.

He doesn't take responsibility for his faults.

- He asks Alicent to give him a merciful death when he willingly confessed his sin of sleeping with Rhaenyra.

- He tries to kill Himself after the wedding, if it weren't for Alicent.

- He's still suicidal and nihilistic, but only keeps going for Alicent.

Now comes the disclaimer that yes he can be hated for his crimes. But I'll say this, overhating his character is no longer funny, it has gone to the point where he's being placed in the same tier list as Joffrey, Ramsey and Daemon. Like people, he's not some psychopath who tortures and mutilates people after hunting them down with hounds, nor is he a rich privileged brat who sees people as playthings to inflict his cruelty on. Or someone who bashes his wife's head with a rock or orders hits on toddler's.

He's a douchebag for sure. But placing him in THAT tier with THOSE characters? Really?

[thesunfyre4446]

the way that some people talk about helaena is just disgusting.

you have the people that straight up say that they're looking forward to b&c & don't care about her at all. which is fine i mean at least you're honest (though can't understand why anyone would be looking forward to seeing a 6yo kid get brutally murdered but ok)

then you have the people who try and "claim" helaena as TB. they say that helaena hates her family & her mom & her family is the reason that her life was ruined - and not b&c and maelor's death caused by rhaenyra and daemon. and it's so obvs they're just using that as an excuse to justify their favs horrible actions.

helaena's family did not ruin her life.

in the book it was viserys that arranged her marriage to aegon. so don't go crying in the comments about "the book", in the show the alternative is jace - and alicent was not about to let her daughter become rhaenyra's unofficial hostage. the twins are obvs not 6 and were aged down so show!helaena gave birth prob at 17. (these kids are not 6) by marrying aegon, helaena gets to stay at home with her family.

helaena is not suicidal. there is nothing in the show or the book to indicate that she is suicidal or depressed. she's described as a happy girl in the book and in the show we don't really get a lot of scenes with her but there's 0 indication to her being depressed. helaena committed suicide because of her children's death. the greens did not kill her children.

helaena does not hate her children. literally stfu. you can claim that because she's a teen mom (rhaenyra was also a teen mom but i digress) motherhood is prob not easy for her. but the fact that some people say that she hated her kids as a way to justify b&c is disgusting.

helaena being portrayed as neurodivergent & sensitive to touch does not mean that she can't or doesn't love her family. this take makes me want to scream. one of my best friends is also extremely sensitive to touch. she rarely lets her mom hug her and that's OK. everyone has different boundaries.

stop infantilizing helaena!!!!!!!!!!!!! she's an adult!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and all of these excuses are somehow supposed to make b&c and maelor's death look less bad & daemyra less guilty. oh, daemon had her child brutally murdered before her eye? nah, she hated her children anyway lol rhaenyra drove her to suicide? well, she was always depressed and suicidal so it's not that big of a deal... (and don't even get me started on the "why didn't she just go to rhaenyra on dragonstone" as if she'd ever betray her family & like her own sons weren't also at risk if rhaenyra became queen)

i really can't. mind you, these are the people that scream and cry misogyny but are willing to use another female character in such a cynical and sinister way to justify their favs action. and yes, i'm calling it sinister because it feels VERY sinister. the discourse about helaena makes me so uncomfortable. (and the discourse around jaehaera is also disturbing af)

sorry about the rant.

[lalithemidnightmuse7]

People love Kendall Roy for the same reason they hate Alicent Hightower—because they both show weakness. But in our modern society, weakness in a man is romanticized. It makes him human, someone to sympathize with, to “cuddle” because he’s just so babygirl. That’s why people love Aemond and Daemon too. But weakness in a woman? Unacceptable. You are not to be welcomed into the club. That is misogyny—loving and forgiving men for the exact same things we shame women for.

Kendall and Alicent have so many similarities, so many parallels, yet the fandom perceives them completely differently. And the fandom is dominated by women!

You say Alicent was a horrible friend to Rhaenyra, that she betrayed her by not telling her about being sent to Viserys. And yeah, that was awful. But what did you expect to happen? PEOPLE RELATE TO THIS THINKING OF HIGHTSCHOOL DRAMA IT'S NOT. They were ladies in a court ruled by men. Alicent was a 17-year-old girl whose only family was her father—a father she feared. She had abandonment issues. And you think she was going to say no to him? That she was going to stand up for herself when she had never been allowed to before? When she knew that hating it wouldn’t change a thing? She had no power. She wasn’t a princess. She was a girl trapped in a situation she couldn’t escape, and yet people have zero real sympathy for her.

Why? Because she should’ve stood by her friend? The same friend who had firsthand experience of how powerless women were but still chose to blame her? Who knew Alicent’s nature, knew she wasn’t power-hungry like Otto, and still turned on her? But somehow, that same friend found it in her heart to forgive Daemon—a man who had been nothing but monstrous for years.

All the hate for her because she was horrible to Rhaenyra—when Rhaenyra left her alone when she needed her the most.

And then there’s Kendall. A man who, like Alicent, was put into an oppressive system, struggled with loyalty and duty, and made morally complex choices that could be seen as betrayal or survival. But he gets forgiven. He gets pitied. Because he sheds a few tears. Because the show lets us see his suffering. But Alicent’s suffering? Her self-blame, her low self-esteem? Completely ignored.

Alicent was a bad mother? Sorry, when? Where is the scene that makes that obvious? Was she a great mother? No. How could she be? She couldn’t even protect herself. Her first enemy was her own father. Then her husband. Then her only friend in court, who saw her as nothing more than a political obstacle. She spent her whole life being treated as a piece of meat, and now she has to watch her eldest son turn into a monster.

Ignoring his crimes—yeah, that was horrific. But you really think telling someone in court would’ve changed anything? This was a world where such crimes were brushed off and forgiven when committed by commoners. You think they would’ve imprisoned a prince? That Viserys would’ve done something? That the other lords would’ve cared? His reputation was already known all over the kingdoms—and nothing happened.

Meanwhile, Kendall, a man who is also not a great father—who barely sees his kids—is still given the benefit of the doubt. Because he’s trying, right? He’s struggling. But Alicent? No, she’s just a failure.

And Rhaenyra? Was she a great mother? Did she not worsen her sons’ claims by leaving the court? Did she not use them as pawns in her political games? Did she not marry Daemon knowing how that would look? Knowing exactly the kind of person he was? A murderer. A Targaryen supremacist. A man who requested blonde virgin girls in brothels.

But sure, tell me more about how Alicent is the real villain here.

And of course, you would hate Alicent. She doesn’t align with the vision of the loved women of today’s society. It’s so much easier to root for Rhaenyra—the rule-breaker, the tragic feminist icon. And I agree. But can’t you see? Didn’t it mean anything to you to see Alicent dead in that bed with her much older husband who cared nothing for her? Who used her for the sole reason of having children? Who would’ve cut her open too to take what he wanted?

Didn’t it mean anything to you to see the blood on her fingers, knowing exactly what that meant? To see her selling the only thing she could barely call hers—her body—to Larys? No sympathy? Nothing at all?

Also...if you really want to stand morally , you should only stand with kids, smallfolk and heleana.

[rainy-writers]

When are y’all gonna get it through your heads that no one actually cared if the Velaryon boys were bastards or not? They could have come out with white hair, violet eyes, the whole shebang and the rumor still would have been spread because it was meant to undermine RHAENYRA and her claim, nothing else!!

It was a misogynistic attempt to paint her as reckless and irresponsible and another way for the greens to push for Aegon. It was fear mongering, meant to say “Hey! Choose Aegon because you guys don’t want a bastard on the throne, right?” And it didn’t fucking work, save for on the idiot audience that still eats this shit up and genuinely believes that the dance happened bc Harwin and Rhaenyra weren’t married, rather than realizing the whole theme is MISOGYNY!! ITS ABOUT USURPING A WOMAN NO MATTER WHAT SHE DOES, SOLEY BC SHES A WOMAN AND NOTHING ELSE!!

If she had no kids = Vote for Aegon cause she’s barren!!

If she had kids = Vote for Aegon cause they’re bastards!!

If she has kids that look exactly like her = Vote for Aegon bc her kids are clearly Daemon’s bastards am I right? Vote Aegon bc he’s clearly the more responsible of the two with his trueborn kids!!

It. Does. Not. Matter.

And it makes me so mad, especially when people say that the realm wouldn’t have accepted Jace like DUDE. Nobody is just casually going around saying these kids are bastards, save for the people that KNOW they can get away with it if they’re caught bc Viserys wouldn’t dare punish them. Aka:

Alicent, Otto, and her nightmare kids. That’s it. No, some random Lord in the Reach wasn’t preaching about Jace, Luke, and Joff being bastards. I sincerely hate to burst your bubble (NOT!) but you guys as an audience care more than the actual people that live in this world and it’s so funny.

Basic media literacy will tell you that NO, Westeros did not care. How do I know? Well it’s simple really. If they cared then majority of them simply wouldn’t pledge to support Rhaenyra, clearly knowing that Jace is her heir??

I mean, these are all of the houses that supported Rhaenyra AND Jace:

I mean do yall honestly think Cregan Stark thought Jace was a bastard when he swore an oath in BLOOD with Jace, marched PERSONALLY to the south AFTER Jace was dead, and tried to literally kill the CHILDREN of the Lord’s who rose up against him and Rhaenyra?

Do you think Lady Jeyne gaf when she personally pledged to support him? Lord Manderly? Hm.

No, they didn’t lmao.

So please, kill this narrative that “There was going to be rebellion if Jace ascended the throne” and “The realm wouldn’t accept him bc all of them secretly knew he was a bastard despite having no proof because his father, his grandfather and THEIR KING never said otherwise.”

It would not have happened y’all. And one day you blood purist, Velaryon boys haters are going to get it through your head that YES !! They were legitimate because no one ever said otherwise. It was never proven. Rumor isn’t proof. Hair isn’t proof for fucks sake. You need actual words from Laenor himself saying that RHAENYRA cheated and those boys are Harwin’s. You need Corlys passing over Luke for Driftmark and outright saying it’s because he’s a bastard to even get a SHREAD of doubt from the great houses.

One day you guys are going to realize that those boys were loved and no matter how much you try and discredit them, they will always be legitimate. Whether you like it or not, Viserys was content with Jace being on the throne after him, THE REALM was content, and Corlys Velaryon was ready to die peacefully knowing Luke was going to be after him. Hell, he damn near handed that boy the keys so don’t you dare say Luke didn’t deserve to inherit anything.

And sorry for the long post but some of yall are really starting to piss me off. Never mind that this is fiction, your attitude towards these boys is disguising and saying that they don’t deserve a good life, that they dont deserve things that were literally GIVEN to them with no complaints, and even going as far as to call them dirty or saying they deserve to die all because their mommy and daddy weren’t married is fucking disgusting.

This “bastards don’t deserve anything,” attitude needs to stop being preached by real life people. Hell, some of the people saying this are literally in the wedding photos of their own parents wedding LMAO. It concerns me on how much disregard you guys have for adopted kids (which is basically what they are to Laenor), and I’d hate to see the shit you preach in real life. Acting like blood actually matters in order for someone to be considered family.

Because regardless of what you believe, had their mother not been usurped because she was a WOMAN, Jace would have ruled, Luke would’ve gotten Driftmark and, yes, the world of Westeros would’ve kept fucking spinning.

By law these boys were legitimate and people seem to forget they came out of Rhaenyra’s coochie so REGARDLESS, they are Targaryen. Like unless Viserys or Daemon was their father, they were always going to be half NOT Targaryen lol…Just like Alicent’s kids. It just so happens that they’re half Strong, but again, it doesn’t matter, because Jace gets his claim from RHAENYRA, not his father, so even if Harwin was married to Rhaenyra he still would’ve been the heir?? Even if it wasn’t Laenor who was his father, he’d still be heir because of his mother and being married to someone does not change that.

Some people even go as far as to argue that they’re not Targaryen so Jace shouldn’t be the heir which is stupidest thing I’ve ever heard and the most blatant case of misogyny ever. Like unless your father cloned himself then you STILL get half your genes from your mother dumbass. They are as much Targaryen as the Hightower kids with their DARK HARIED PARENT, it just so happens that their Targ side is from a woman, not a man. Which, like I said, if you don’t consider them Targaryen just bc they don’t get their claim from their father then we know what you are. 🙃

But anyways, to make a long post short, yes these boys are legitimate, they were recognized as such by:

The King himself (who they’d be inheriting from)

Rhaenyra

Laenor (their father, who they’d be inheriting from and wanted Luke to have Driftmark)

Corlys (their grandfather, who Luke would be inheriting from and wanted Luke to have Driftmark)

Rhaenys

The Realm

History

And if you still don’t believe me, here’s the official Targaryen family tree from Fire and Blood which all of Westeros sees :)

You see how they’re listed as Velaryon? You see how they’re directly linked to Laenor and there’s no little astric saying how they’re bastards? Yeah me too.

PS - Read Fire and Blood as well. This whole argument about them being bastards is literally stemmed from no more than two paragraphs, IF that. And their legitimacy is never brought up again.

[unicoo]

The way we watch Alicent get pimped out by her dad, sworn to secrecy by the king, forced into a marriage with the same man (who isold enough to be her dad), maritally raped by said old ass husband & forced to carry his heirs in quick succession, all while still growing up herself and losing her only friend…….yet somehow, someway, there are people out there who………blame Alicent…the child? Book!Alicent is a different story, but to sit and WATCH show!Alicent go through all of this manipulation and grooming and abuse, and hate her?! Yeah some of y’all are sick 😭 I’m not even joking because like…..what?!

We are supposed to feel bad for Rhaenyra being forced to marry………but not Alicent? Why? Someone tell me why & quickly!! And don’t you dare say “sHE seDucEd vISerYs”, no, she was manipulated and then told to keep it secret by her king! He knew it was wrong yet didn’t gaf, so where is his hate? Are we being hypocrites guys?

We are supposed to feel bad for Rhaenyra & her kids, but not Alicent & hers who were ignored and treated like shit? Once again where is Viserys’ hate? QUICKLY, tell me!!! He’s neglecting his kids guys, we don’t support that do we?

We are supposed to hate Alicent for how she treated Rhaenyra, but not Rhaenyra for how she treated Alicent? (Especially when it was shown Alicent was trying and she didn’t become hateful until RHAENYRA LIED to her) Why, tell me, tell me, tell me. And don’t you dare say “sHE BEtRayEd hEr bY mARryInG ViSeRYs” SHE DIDNT HAVE A CHOICE!!! If we know Rhaenyra didn’t and we feel oh so bad for her, and we know most noble women don’t have a choice, then why are we mad at Alicent like she did? tell me please I BEG!

We scream girl boss for Rhaenyra wanted a son for a son, sorry make that sons for a son, yet Alicent is Beelzebub for wanting Justice for her son (WHO WAS A KID!!!! He hadn’t done shit yet, he was sweet and dragonless & got bullied, then maimed, YOU WOULD BE MAD TOO, lie & say you wouldn’t 😐) anyone who doesn’t understand Alicent’s motives behind the eye for an eye incident is either not a parent or is a heartless monster 🤷‍♀️

Y’all quite literally watched Alicent’s villain origin story and said why she so mad? Are you…..are you seriously dumb or just fucking with me? 😭

Y’all are pro Rhaenyra because she’s a “feminist” yet y’all hate every women who isn’t Rhaenyra……to me it sounds like…….✨hypocrisy✨

And how does one stand for a war against misogyny only to participate in the misogyny themselves? 🤔

The dance is a war against misogyny yet……….no one is stopping the misogyny, just dressing it up with cute excuses and throwing the blame onto the other side………..

(Also like it’s not far fetched to believe Rhaenyra would’ve had Alicent’s kids dealt with, especially since she’s hated Aegon since before he was a baby. My guy was 2 and she was beefing with bro like…. And you can’t say “AliCEnt & OtTo didN’T lEt tHeM hAVE a rElAtiOnsHIP” ummm SHOWwise that is untrue Rhaenyra just didn’t wanna fuck with them kids 😂)

[theweirwoodfiles]

HOTD Fandom Behavior

This is going to be a little long winded but this has been on my mind for awhile.

Why does it seem like it's only team black that gets put in the hot seat for fan behavior? I understand that team black makes up the majority of the fandom, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't address the rampant misogyny that has been present in the team green fandom since day one that has gone unchecked. The show amplified the voices of misogynists who feel drawn to the story of the dance because they enjoy Rhaenyra's suffering and tragedy. Not to mention the other, actual fans, who still just hate her for whatever reason and can't do so without being misogynistic just helping normalize that kind of behavior.

And I'm not talking about "well I just like Aegon more than Rhaenyra", but the fixation on Rhaenyra's sex life and weight, the ai slop photos or wojaks where she's a misogynistic caricature, the fact that there is genuinely a huge portion of team green fans that cannot admit to their dislike of Rhaenyra without falling into misogyny. Those people are not outliers, and they've made themselves very comfortable in that part of the fandom. They feel no shame and sometimes even get viral posts.

"I'm not team black because the fans ruined it for me" but the team green fans calling Rhaenyra a fat ho or saying she deserves everything she gets for daring to have sexual agency didn't turn you off from being team green?

[ladyofthehightower]

Those s2 Alicent scenes and why they were not unnecessary

Something I touched on very briefly in a previous post is that people are incredibly unfair to Olivia Cookie and blame so much random shit on her. Something that gets brought up a lot to hate on her is that she "forced" the show runners to add scenes so that she could leave the studio in Wales, something she says she didn't get to do for season 1.

This is the exact quote:

And what were the scenes in question? (These are only my guesses, there might be more, and some of these might have been shot in the studio in Wadhurst, I actually don't know lol)

The funeral procession for Jaehaerys

Entering the sept while Rhaenyra watches

The riots after praying in the sept with Helaena

The "camping" trip (which was shot in Wales, not in Spain)

The final shot of 2x08 (also shot in Wales)

The argument from team black Olivia/Alicent anti's is of course that it did not work. That these scenes were essentially useless and add nothing and only shows Olivia as an entitled cunt, essentially! Misogyny aside, it is not uncommon for actors-especially big names-to make requests in this fashion. Just the way you are allowed to ask for certain things at your job, Olivia and other actors are allowed to ask for things at theirs!

And it's not like they wouldn't have shot in Spain anyway, right? There are scenes that have nothing to do with Alicent that are also shot in Spain.

But let's talk about the scenes!

The funeral procession for Jaehaerys The funeral for Jaehaerys is obviously not unnecessary. It's a big moment for team green and the death of Jaehaerys kickstarts a lot of events and feelings for Alicent (and Aegon). Even if we ignore the fact that it's a funeral for her grandson, it's a scene that adds a lot to Helaena and Alicent's relationship/dynamic. It's an emotional scene that both Phia Saban and Olivia Cooke act incredibly well.

Entering the sept while Rhaenyra watches This is an incredibly short scene, but obviously acts as the build up to their meeting in 2x03. A scene being short does not make it unnecessary, and adults watching a TV show for adults should not need to be told that build up is important!

The riots after praying in the sept with Helaena Another important scene for Helaena and Alicent! It shows how protective Alicent is of her daughter, covering her and protecting her with her own body. It also shows how upset the smallfolk is in response to the rules Aegon has imposed since he became king that have lead to starvation etc. Now, I don't think it makes much sense for them to riot like that... but considering the narrative that's clearly being told, it does fit and the scene is important.

The "camping" trip Easily the scene people hate the most, and I know exactly why but I still find I need to ask why? How? These scenes are the culmination of a season long emotional journey Alicent has gone on. It starts in 1x09, even. She's breaking free from her father's grasp and she's returning to herself. Olivia has talked about Alicent was ready to take her own life in that scene, until she sees the bird, flying freely. It's after that that Alicent decides to go see Rhaenyra to bargain for her, Helaena and Jaehaera's safety. These are beautiful scenes that set up the final meeting between Rhaenyra and Alicent in 2x08 and puts Alicent on a new trajectory that's been hinted at since 1x09.

Final shot in 2x08 I won't discuss the last scene of 2x08 too much, because in my opinion it's just a very beautiful scene and great ending to the season, especially the parallel shots between Alicent and Rhaenyra and setting them up for s3. Rhaenyra inside, "caged" by history, Alicent free in the wind!

In conclusion, the hate for these scenes, for Olivia's statement, comes from a place of hatred for Alicent as a character. Where that hate stems from is something to discuss further another time. The truth is that people will hate Alicent and Olivia for any reason. We know they will be hypocritical, that they'll lie or twist truths just to be a bitch on social media.

In the same way they say these scenes where unimportant, I could claim any scene of Daemon hallucinating at Harrenhall was unnecessary, or the birth of Visenya or Rhaenyra looking for Luke! Shockingly, none of those statements are true. What team black seem to forget sometimes (at least in regards to team green characters... interesting...) is that every scene doesn't need to explicitly move the plot forward. Scenes that explore and deepen character's are so important, because if we don't care about the character's we do not care about the plot.

[the-king-andthe-lionheart]

So I can't hold my tongue anymore...

It's funny, I decided to go into the ASOIAF tag yesterday for the first time in months and what do I find? Several posts about how "Bastards shouldn't inherit" or that "Bastards are EViL". If that is the brunt of your fucking argument then you all need to sit down and re-evaluate why your main argument relies on blood purity rhetoric and classism, and yes, often misogyny. "But...but...but..." you all must be saying "that's just how it was back then/in the books" and I have to answer with, "have you even read the books?" You know the books where almost all of the main protagonists and main characters are misfits and outcasts in some capacity? The books where GRRM is trying to dismantle the harmful prejudices put on people due to them being illegitimate, disabled, mentally ill, or women? The books where GRRM made it perfectly clear that the Dance only happened solely because Rhaenyra was a woman and nothing else and how that was clearly wrong? But how can I not be surprised considering the majority of you have never read the books or just misinterpreted them to fit your own prejudices. This fandom is truly toxic and supremely alienating and you all should be ashamed of yourselves for falling into this "Bastards are evil" bullshit. Do I have to remind you all that the main male protagonist in the books is a dark haired Targaryen bastard and many of you all root for him to become king, all the while simultaneously bad mouthing Rhaenyra's children, saying they shouldn't inherit, and laughing when they die? Talk about hypocritical. Anyway, if you are someone who is spouting vitriol against bastardry, touch some fucking grass, and re-evaluate why you are so passionately hateful against people being illegitimate. I mean, considering the sheer level of your online hatred for these characters it must surely be rooted into real life hatred of illegitimate people. And for anyone else reading this who actually understands the source material, I apologize for taking up your time and this isn't aimed at you.

Anyway, HOTD was a fucking mistake because it brought in a bunch of misogynistic, blood purists. Funny, because a lot of you are anti-Targaryen and condemn the Targaryen's for being "blood purists". I feel as if the pot is calling the kettle black.

[alicentsgf]

why are people so pressed about how Alicent ends up this season??? Like hotd hasn’t been good since s1 people also criticized everything back then but tbh Alicent from s1 was always headed to where she ends up?? I thought it was common knowledge that her last choice would always going to be duty vs love and s1 stated very well that Rhaenyra is that freedom for Alicent???? I absolutely hated the things they put Alicent through (alicole sex and for what? All of her sons being a dick to her??) her arc this season was badly executed but to blame and think that the writers are catering to rhaenicents? seems a bit stretch when the ship is hated by the majority of the show. We can argue in the journey of how Alicent get to the point she is now but it was clear for the beginning that the head of TG?? She would never be, sometimes I think that thanks to most of the general viewers didn’t understand Alicent as a character the writers thought if we put her in these humiliating scenes the viewers would understand that she is a victim of the patriarchy and the men who surround her, but I guess not even with that the GA and fandom as whole could ever understand her character and honestly im good with it, she’s a walking contradiction and i have read her character like that since the beginning, good riddance tho to the obnoxious people that kept bad talking Olivia for only doing her job (this is not a dig to you but the extended fandom that are attacking Olivia again for her character)

Why are we upset now? Because we dared to hope lmao. And now we're realising theres absolutely no coming back from this (it was already mostly ruined i know).

I think the issue is the choice between duty and love should have been made when she chose her children and grandchildren over viserys wish for rhaenyra to rule. Choosing love didnt have to and shouldnt have meant choosing rhaenyra. Like finally FINALLY she lets herself cast duty aside, because "what is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms", "you never love anything in the world the way you love your first child", "you imbecile (affectionate)", etc etc. That is what works in line with the original story AND the sympathetic sides of alicent we saw with in season 1. Sure motherhood shouldn't define women but this is a story abt a fucking lineage !! What do people expect. Of course its going to be about parents and children.

F&B might have been bare bones, but it at least had a strong political backbone to it thats been completely removed this season. That direction would have offered more oppertunities for alicent to be explored as a multifacted character. The problem is that because they angled this as a story primarily about misogyny rather than a story about the inevitability of the targaryen line imploding, they maybe thought they couldnt do that without making alicent look like an unsympathetic agent of patriarchy. (Most of the audience read her that way anyway so they did a pretty crappy job avoiding it). Rhaenyra represented a certain freedom for alicent in the story, sure, im not against that at all, but for the writers to suggest literally being with Rhaenyra is what alicent needs to do to achieve freedom from duty? To free herself from the shackles or patriarchy?? (🙄) Its so laughable. Alicents little grandson had to have his head sown back on for his funeral and Rhaenyras faction sent the assassin. Her daughter was traumatised. You dont just fucking come back from that. Really we should have known when viserys died how this was gonna go and I think in some ways we did because a big number of us were upset with the misunderstanding then, we just didnt want to believe what this signaled about where they were taking alicent. People are upset now because alicents character has become totally unrectifiable. We just never believed they'd diverge so much from the known plot points of fire and blood.

As for this bit you said:

" I think that thanks to most of the general viewers didn’t understand Alicent as a character the writers thought if we put her in these humiliating scenes the viewers would understand that she is a victim of the patriarchy and the men who surround her, but I guess not even with that the GA and fandom as whole could ever understand her character and honestly im good with it, she’s a walking contradiction and i have read her character like that since the beginning."

I have thought this myself and unfortunately I think you're right. In an effort to make alicent sympathetic they have created the most convoluted character i've ever laid my eyes on. Towards the end of season 1 we were already saying her being so forgiving after driftmark made no sense, but i was compelled enough by her because of olivias performance of that scene with the knife to be willing to wait to see where they took her this season. And its been an exercise in more of the same stupid shit. The issues in season 1 have just been amplified by the realisation that season 2 is just the same thing again and again and again for alicent. Shes just a punching bag and im sure thats in an attempt to get the audience to feel bad for her, because i cant see any other reason for it, but its just so badly written that shes no longer compelling or interesting or likeable really at all. Theres nothing to root for when you dont know who someone is. I have so little to say about her this season and that hurts honestly. Olivias performances deserved much better writing.

[rynnthefangirl]

I get that it is pretty standard storytelling to stack the odds in favor of your villains in order to make the protagonists eventually success more satisfying… but it is so frustrating to see how the mood of Westeros at the start of the Dance was so flipped around from what it was in the books.

People WANTED to fight for Rhaenyra. She was the Realms Delight, Viserys’ Little Girl, the rightful heir. During Aegon’s coronation, Smallfolk murmured in hesitant confusion, occasionally shouting out “Long live Queen Rhaenyra!” The Starks, the Arryns, the Velaryons, and many more houses were 100% behind her. Even in the Reach, which should have been fully in the Hightowers pocket, many houses were declaring for Rhaenyra. She had the majority of the Houses in Westeros on her side! Meanwhile Otto was writing for foreign aid in a desperate attempt to get more support for their side.

The Greens believed that the Realm would side with Aegon due to misogyny and fear of retaliation, and were shocked at how much support Rhaenrya managed to garner. They usurped the throne not just bc they were willing to tear the realm apart for power (though they were) but bc they believed it would would not be necessary. But as it turns out, stealing a throne, slaying a peace envoy and your own nephew, and imprisoning/murdering lords for keeping their oaths does NOT make you popular. The Greens were doomed by their own arrogance. They themselves had no respect for oaths or loyalty, and assumed that the rest of the Realm was the same. They thought that as long as they had Kings Landing and Vhagar, they could bribe or threaten the houses into submission. But that was not the case. The Greens plan did NOT go as they wanted bc other houses were not as grasping and selfish as they expected. Not as grasping and selfish as they and their allies were.

But in the show?

-People hate Rhaenyra for the death of Jaehaerys, but absolutely nobody seems to give a shit that Aemond murdered his nephew, a 13 year old peace envoy. I don’t think he has even been called a kinslayer yet.

-The smallfolk all cheer at Aegon’s coronation (though I will give the show credit that the smallfolks attitudes are shifting against Aegon after the ratcatchers and parading of Meleys’ head, as they should).

-Jane Arryn, Rhaenys Targaryen, Corlys Velaryon all seem to resent Rhaenyra. It’s not even clear why they are fighting for her, as it seems to be with the greatest reluctance.

-The Brackens are the noble oathkeeping house that will burn before betraying their king, while the Blackwoods are evil underhanded murderers.

-Rather than the taking of Harrenhall being a decisive and important victory for the Blacks that shakes Aegon to his core, Daemon is floundering to get any support while all the Riverlords hate him and call him and Rhaenrya a tyrant.

-The Freys are only reluctant allies, again solely for whatever they can get for it.

At this point, the only ones that seems to pose any sort of threat to the Greens is their own leaders. Certainly not any of the Blacks. I’m not even sure why Criston Cole is bothering to take smaller castles around Kings Landing instead of just marching his men to Harrenhall. They’ve talked about it being the key to the Riverlands, and it’s not as though Daemon has a host there (or seemingly any firm support from anyone but House Blackwood). So go take it! What they hell are they waiting for?

Despite the brutal losses of Rhaenys and Jace, the Blacks take both Harrenhall and then Kings Landing quite decisively and with little bloodshed. Rhaenrya’s downfall is due to her own descent into grief, vengeance, and paranoia following the death of her children and multiple betrayals, combined with the insanity sweeping KL and the realm due to the stolen crown treasury and the horrific war crimes being rained down upon the realm (thanks Aemond, Daeron, Dalton, Ulf, and Hugh).

As it stands though, I’m reminded of Game of Thrones S7-8, where Cersei is able to do anything she wants with no backlash while Daenerys and hated and betrayed for her every action, despite Dany being an infinitely better person and ruler. I mean, it’s not quite at that level, but it is in the same ball field.

Stakes are good and all, but let the leaders of Team Black be as cool as they were in the books. And let Rhaenyra be flawed, let the burden of the war force her to make bad and vengeful decisions. While I certainly don’t want Rhaenyra to be totally demonized and it should not all be on her, we’ve swung too far the other way. The show’s depiction of Team Black needs balance. And the Greens need to face consequences for what they do.

[horizon-verizon]

I read this thread that I found quite interesting if you want to check it out

https://x.com/darksvster/status/1817785978708480244

Rhaenyra is in a way turning into a cult leader a la Paul Atreides, believing herself to be the prince who was promised, recruiting smallfolk who have nothing to lose and sending them to their deaths to fight in her name, its a very prevalent theme actually. The dragon keepers being appalled by the massacre this will cause but her insisting on it, its a descent into self glory and obsession. The more she gets closer to the Iron Throne the more it corrupts her which is why I’m absolutely sure they will include her getting cut as soon as she sits on it. Let’s face it, as much as I hate to admit it, misogyny isn’t a main theme in HOTD.

When I heard Ryan described this scene as cult behaviour and Rhaenyra acting as a “pastor”, my mind went straight to the Shepherd (a strong follower of the Faith of the Seven), they’d be the different sides of the same coin, Rhaenyra brought down these gods, here they slaughtered the smallfolk but at the Storming of Dragonpit, it’s the smallfolk destroying them.

And if you take into consideration that the prophecy was proven false in GOT and how HOTD is trying to hammer down the idea that monarchies and especially Targaryen ones are terrible, it leads you to the idea that anyone who thinks them selves as the savior is a false prophet. Viserys told her about the prophecy to make her pursuit of the throne more legitimate and peaceful, however it ended up making her more unhinged because she now believes herself a prophet when its all a farce, neither she nor her descendants will be the saviors IN SHOW LORE (please don’t misunderstand me, I know that in the books, the prince that was promised and Azor Ahai are Daenerys and no one else).

Didn't watch the episode, so this is pretty helpful and explains a lot why I kept seeing Rhaenys-cult leader in my Twitter timeline. How interesting...

Always remember that Condal came from a Catholic school (I also did but you don't see me trying to make a canonically family/woman who never really had much enthusiasm for religion religiously cultish...)

Rhaenyra never tried to build any sort of cult around herself or dragons

dragons always choose their own rider, so the dragonkeepers protesting Rhaenyra having lowborns have access to dragons is more classism than religiousness still wouldn't make any sense besides bc 1) they'd be going against their dragon-gods' wishes/authority 2) there's no proof of them even coming from Valyrian families... unlike in the orig lore, in the show they seem to be randos who can speak Old Valyrian and have ritualistic practices concerning dragons as literal gods/reps of gods

Old Valyrian dragonlords were never particularly religiously "devoted" or defined themselves through gods even with them having their own gods as they had a multireligious state in Old Valyria....at least comparatively to other peoples, inlcu the andals, who are actually the ones who you'd say were religiously cultish with their carving Seven symbols in their foreheads and later talking something close to Manifest destiny to explain how/why the fled Essos (when it was more liekly bc of the Valyrians)

the dragonkeepers have never in all of history been in the authority to deny a Targ anything based on any sort of separate and independent authority OR religious beliefs bc their role was just to guard dragons/their eggs/their lairs

AND

that he's mainly trying to create a story he's always wanted to see as a fan of GRRM's work (BigThink article):

So, yeah, all this matters for the exact direction you predict and I dislike this concept.

[rougesdelight]

I love Daemon and Rhaenyra as characters but i feel tb are weird when it come two this two, a lot of tb i know can write a whole essai about b&c, Daemon laughing at baby's death (the same people also hate Aemond and Aegon for celebrating Luke's death) but when it come to Rhaenyra want to executed the dragonseed they only said she's not perfect? And she is wrong, Like other character can do their job better than her? I stumble to three people calling her she's not perfect That's the only answer they give, but She was betrayed by two dragonseed, even if she was not betrayed she had valid reason to not trust them (few pages before we got Jaehaerys freak out losing three dragon egg! Dragon egg!) i dont get it how all Rhaenyra crimes are way worse than Daemon. this people could excuse a murder but draw the line at racist?.

The only thing when they want to talk about her was just "she was usurped!" "She's a woman" "Misogyny" they even said Rhaenyra was happy married to Laenor? But they dislike Rhaegar arrange marriage to Elia Martell, Rhaenyra literally had nothing good to said to Laenor rather than she insult him just like Daemon to Rhea was, how her marriage was happy?. "She wouldnt get supporter if it not because of Jace" (she literally had supporter since she was fifteen with her black dress while Jace need to promise Joff marriage and his "future" daughter to get support) majority tb dont actually like Rhaenyra they just using her to argue with team green so similar to what they did to Aegon the younger.

Sometimes i think this is not about tb vs tg but team Hightower vs Strong vs Velaryon.

anon, thats all misogyny. they will excuse every single flaw their favourite male characters have, but when it comes to rhaenyra she is suddenly called the worst possible names they can think of. a few years ago the hate she was getting was insane, i do feel like now book rhaenyra is gaining more love ❤️ or at least she is not getting that amount of hate she used to. every bad thing she did was out of desperation, she lost so many people, she was manipulated by mysaria, and was betrayed so many times to the point she did not trust anyone. looking at her character every single action was justified. i do not think she was perfect as you say or imply, she is not the perfect book heroine, she is not a saint, george clearly wanted to write her that way, she was very complex character. i wish we got more of her inner thoughts, but thats the price we have to pay with the way f&b is written (and we are paying it with show rhaenyra).

FOR ME book rhaenyra is not some cold, manipulative bitch, for me she was very smart, but also sometimes impulsive, followed her heart, was sweet to people she cared about and probably did not pay attention to people she did not like. i see her as this girl who was educated since young age, had to carry burden of being heir to the throne, but also wanted the freedom to express love and lust, was not ashamed for her desires, was very bold and wanted to fight for things she believed in. and that makes her the best character for me, and i adore her and find her so so interesting, but im going to stop since this is getting long.

one thing more, only few people understand her and the point of her character. they say they stan her but then say shit like 'she was happy with laenor'. but thats hotd fault. and yes, people use her for their arguments just as they use aegon iii, and im praying that those stans leave both of them alone since they don't know shit 🙏

[nessest]

nothing screams misogyny more than people blaming alicent for aegon's injuries, yes she was spiteful towards him, but does that mean he should go to battle drunk? do we also forget that cole and aemond planned the whole thing behind his back? cole is his hand, but he didn't tell him the actual plan. they could have told him what their plans were, they could have included him and not made him feel like he was getting undermined (which was his main issue anyway);

people wonder how can alicent ask to be made regent, when it is her fault that aegon is bedridden, while aemond is sitting on that same table and got promoted!!!!!!!!!!! he let him get into a tough spot with rhaenys, he burned him and almost let rhaenys get away - the guy is stupid, killing their own king, dragon and letting the enemy go - bravo!!!

alicent got more hate for being mean to aegon and ''sending him to his death'' than aemond did for burning his brother.

when Otto, his grandfather was yelling at him for the rat catchers (which he showed more emotion towards) - everyone was laughing, it doesn't matter that Aegon is 'grieving' his son, it doesn't matter that it was this interaction and ''is that what you think'' (for viserys making him heir) which what made him cry later. that was funny, but alicent walking out? she is horrible!!!!!!!!

i don't even care she ''betrayed'' her sons, i care for the fact that she pretends she has nothing to do with the usurpation and wants to wash her hands out of it. she started the whole thing, her anger towards rhaenyra, it wasn't fear. how can we even claim she was afraid of her when she made her life hell, why would you do that towards someone who's gonna kill you? her husband was one foot in the grave, her sons small children, but she did her best to antagonize rhaenyra; that is not how someone who is afraid behaves. thats what annoys me; - but alicent 'betraying' her fraction got so much more hate than Aemond ever did for what happened with Aegon, if it wasn't for Criston he would have finished him off.

[lemonhemlock]

The truth about Alicent Hightower: why is she so disliked?

https://youtu.be/t9HjamrAMfU?si=QpoUMPQQSuTWmovz

I found this video on YouTube. I didn't watch the video, but I did read the comments, and many of them were negative toward Alicent. I want to know your thoughts on this video.

The comments are negative towards Alicent because the creator's request for engagement consisted of asking her audience to share why they disliked Alicent. Though I do feel inclined to enquire myself: why are you asking me to react to this video if you haven't even watched it?

Many of these talking points I have already addressed in my lengthy meta posts over time:

There is a conflation of Alicent from the books and Alicent from the show. Show!Alicent was not sent to comfort Jaehaerys and is more innocent and trusting that book!Alicent because she is younger.

Alicent is hated by many viewers for "seducing" Viserys. The creator says she doesn't and denies that people blame her for that, but they do. It's an easily-verified, observable reality and, thus, a strange thing to even say.

Jace/Helaena is not an advantageous marriage for the greens.

"Why was Otto spying on Rhaenyra?" It's literally his job. "He deserved to be fired". It's literally his job to be spying on everyone and report the information back to the King.

The Hightowers are faced with the fait accompli that Aegon will not be named heir. They went into the marriage fully believing that Alicent's sons would overtake Rhaenyra in the line of succession, as was the social norm.

It ultimately comes back to what I was talking about these last few days. This is the result of a conflation of several factors:

ignorance about what medieval social and economic arrangements actually were (what is feudalism? what is manorialism?);

stubbornly clinging to the notion that Westeros is an absolutist monarchy and that "the King's word is law";

downplaying the bastard issue, i.e. refusing to acknowledge how concerning the division of the marital estate was to inheritors and blaming it entirely on misogyny-fueled sex-negativism;

having no concept of what common law is or how it functions.

People can't let go of this image that Westeros is a capitalist modern state with an authoritarian leader (the King). And dragons. (It's Russia, basically. The dragons are bears).

Most of TB's discourse contains some combination of the above, which is why, honestly, at this point, if people are so invested in still talking about this, I would truly suggest a primer in medieval history, because this is getting ridiculous. These reasonings are just not rooted in a tangible basis of reality and trying to engage with them is like fighting windmills.

In the same vein, I wish people would stop bringing up the point of Alicent misunderstanding that Viserys changed his mind on his death bed. I get it, you think it's a dumb argument, but, lo' and behold, it's actually lifted straight from real history and, to the shock of thousands of Twitter users, it worked. What now? Stephen of Blois truly is crying in the afterlife because you think this little trick of his lacks realism. 🤦‍♀️

[lizzie-queenofmeigas]

Canon Aegon and Aemond have a weird obsession with Rhaenyra’s genitals and sex life, which is basically the misogyny they learned at Alicent’s knee taken to its logical extreme with the preoccupation with a Madonna/Whore complex.

And, no, it isn’t fanfic-y to notice that Alicent’s cold war towards a child, the fact that she insinuates that Rhaenyra is a “whore” even when she’s 10, or that Essosi envoys, who don’t know anyone from Adam or Eve, noticed that Alicent was cold and feuding with a 10 year old Rhaenyra.

Hint: if someone says they have a feud with a little child, it’s really more like they are bullying/abusing the child.

(Ditto for how Alicent’s sons had a “rivalry” with the Velaryon boys... when Jace was 6 to Aegon’s 14 and Aemond’s 11/12. The only Targtower Jace and Luke could’ve had a rivalry with was Daeron, who was the same age as Jace, and he was shipped to Oldtown as an infant. AKA, Aegon and Aemond bullied their MUCH younger nephews).

Why are we blaming the victim of child abuse and trying to pretend it didn’t happen by doing the bad fanfic take that Alicent was somehow innocent and didn’t do anything to Rhaenyra. Orwhy we are doing the awful “well, if the victim fights back against their aggressor, that makes them just as bad as them!” justification. Because we know that Rhaenyra’s dress scene was her letting Alicent know that she is now old enough to fight back, she’s not going to take this abuse lying down, and she’s the rightful heir so Alicent can die mad about it.

Viserys didn’t even do shit when Alicent said “Ser Criston protects the princess from her enemies, but who protects the princess from Ser Criston ?” when Rhaenyra was 10. Either Alicent was lying and basically insinuating something lurid about Rhaenyra and Cole as part of her “let’s slut-shame and discredited the 10 year old Rhaenyra to make my side look better” campaign, OR Cole was being such a creep that even Alicent pointed that out.

Either way, Viserys did NOTHING at the insinuation of Cole grooming his daughter (or of Alicent lying to discredit Rhaenyra via slut-shaming). AKA, Viserys SUCKS at protecting Rhaenyra from Alicent because he’s too much of an emotional coward to be a parent and let his wife know that there are lines in the sand you just don’t cross.

Which, again, this is how some parents are: they allow the step-parent to mistreat their children because they don't want to fight with the new spouse. It's a flaw in being conflict-avoidant.

(Note how Viserys doesn’t avoid conflict with Daemon, because he’s subconsciously secure that his brother will still have his back when it counts. Ditto for how he doesn’t avoid putting Rhaenyra in a terrible position and so having a conflict with her, see marrying her to a gay man so she can fix his mistakes with the Velaryons, because he also feels secure in his relationship with her. Cowardly people like Viserys only have conflicts with those they feel, subconsciously or not, that they are “safe” to vent their anger on and won’t walk away from them).

If there’s one thing I hate, it’s the conservative-washing of HOTD (which was obvious from the moment they turned Alicent into a fanfic woobie by giving her all of the pathos that was Rhaenyra’s), because they have somehow managed to frame everything as “the Dance wasn’t about misogyny, it was about two sides being awful” when the point is that the Dance WAS about misogyny from start to finish. Aegon being an incompetent drunk and sex offender who paid for statues made of gold during a famine and when the vaults were empty because of the Greens’ embezzlement and hiding the money, was the POINT. Jaehaera being the only heir left and how Aegon was quick to replace Helaena with Cassandra Baratheon was the point. Rhaenyra not necessarily being a once in a lifetime genius monarch or revolutionary like Aegon the Conqueror or Daenerys, but still being so much better than her brother is the point, because we all know that there wouldn’t be any debates about Rhaenyra’s competence or morality if she was a man.

And that is the fucking point.

Amén.