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Kaoru Interview - Burrn! Japan Vol.23 (Feb 2024)

Interview by You Masuda

FAN TRANSLATION

(Note: This interview was held mid-way through the Phalaris Final tour)

The next person to interview was Kaoru, straight after Die. When I asked Kyo about new material going forward, he simply said, 'Ask Kaoru about that', but to be sure, if there is any member creating the blueprints for future new material, there is no doubt that its Kaoru. Of course, I'm aware that its slightly too soon to be asking such things, but I started the interview hoping to at least pick up a few hints.

ーYou are currently mid-tour, but after finishing both days at Zepp Haneda, how are you feeling about it?

Hmm. Its quite.....exhausting (lol). It consumes a lot of energy, much more than we usually use for live shows. Phalaris has a lot of power packed into it, and you really feel it bearing down on you. I'm not even trying to be that active on stage, but still....its tiring (lol)

ーBy that you mean its something different from physical tiredness?

Yeah, the tone, the content of the show, there is a heaviness to it, its something that you just can't approach half-heartedly.

ーKyo said that the songs are all hard work to sing this time. As for performing, there seems to be a lot of songs that you just can't relax through.

Yeah, its the same when playing. It really questions the type of person who is stood there playing on stage...this isnt the type of stage I can just stand around carelessly on. I mean, not that I'm like that anyway (lol). But there is something about it where I just can't express myself unless I fully throw myself into that world. It feels like a heavy weight crashing down on me for this tour.

ーThis is the third tour in the Phalaris cycle, but I get the feeling the first two rounds were not as heavy as this?

They weren't. The first round was quite tasteful, and in the second round we emphasised the 'live' element of it more, it was like a lighter version. If its too heavy from the beginning, its kinda tough on the audience too.

ーWould you say this is an album with such a heaviness that it requires this kind of considered moderation?

Yeah, but we did think we need to moderate this tour too. If for example, we were to do a single limited live show in a big venue to close Phalaris, that would be even more intense. In the shape of a tour, there are times when we are reaching our absolute limits. Thats how tough it is (lol) It didn't seem right unless each show of the tour encompassed that sense of weight and culmination.

ーIn other words you are almost right at your tipping point?

Yes. If we were to increase the intensity further, there is no doubt that the shows would collapse into chaos...which may be ok in some sense, but then we would be unable to continue touring properly.

ーYou touched on this earlier, but don't you have any plans to do a seperate finale for Phalaris in a big venue at any point?

No, we aren't thinking about that, not for now at least. It doesn't mean there is a zero percent chance, but recently there just isnt the venue availability for that kind of thing. This has been going on for a few years now. If we had been able to find a big venue before announcing the tour, then this tour wouldn't have been seen as the 'Final'. So in a sense, ending Phalaris in this way is very rooted in actuality. It probably still would have been this heavy though, even if it wasn't labeled as the final.

ーFor Uroboros, you held a finale live in Osaka jo Hall after a bit of time had passed. Is there no possibility of such a thing happening for Phalaris?

Well, I don't know. Its a timing issue. If we found the perfect venue at the perfect time, and if we were all mentally in that space....I mean, it will be easier to know as time passes, but if we are mentally for it, there may be a possibility.

ーYour answer has raised my expectations somewhat, but I'm not going to get too carried away for the time being. Have you discovered any new feelings towards this album during the current tour?

Hmm....I've been thinking its a good album (lol)

ーIts not like you to sing your own praises (lol)

Well, I mean, after this, if we realease a new single, there will probably be Phalaris-like elements to it, but even putting that to one side, so many of our past songs just fit really well alongside Phalaris. So I think we have been very true to ourselves with this album. Although it sounds a bit odd for me to say that myself (lol). I'm not entirely sure about the overall balance of the album as a piece of work, but it fits so well with our other songs, there is a mysterious feel to it.

ーFitting with your other songs may have something to do with it, but at the time you completed the album, you also said that it contains every part of Dir en grey. I'm sure you werent consciously thinking that while you were making it though.

No, I think I was at times. Of course, this isn't the end for us, but I was thinking that IF the band were to end now, I would want this to be seen as our best work. So as for consciously putting all of Dir en grey into it, no, I don't think thats wrong.

ーMaking the album with that much conscious effort means its not all new. There are links to the past, as well as that link to pull you forward onto your next step.

Yeah, and I've been feeling this even more so on the current tour. That's why I've been thinking this is a good album (lol)

ーI love hearing this kind of thing from the artists themselves. Hearing about the songs fitting well reminded me...With all these songs from Phalaris in the setlist, certain other songs might also come to mind, but to hear songs like Different Sense and Downfall in there, its like they were meant to be. That may be an odd way to describe it...

Heh, I understand. They wouldn't be out of place even if they were on Phalaris. We didn't choose to include specific types of songs while we were making it, but if you search through our past music there are some things that do just roll into place. Its probably going too far to say I was realising this when completing the album, but I feel like I can see Phalaris more clearly now. With this tour, I really do feel that sense of completion.

ーThat may be what a sense of completion actually means. You finally reach that point after realising for yourself what the flow of your past work has created.

Yes.

ーIn that sense, I think this is a very interesting outcome. But with such an intensity to the show from the outset, there is the possibilty of the audience being left behind at somepoint, if you don't get it exactly right.

Hm, I wonder. Some people might have felt that way about Phalaris 2, but this is just us being us. Its just not blowing up with excitement at the end this time, its kind of a different feeling from what we've done previously. The heaviness of the mid-section of the show is due to us being thorough, but I don't feel like its exceptional (lol)

ーAs you just said about the end of the show, closing with Kamuy is a bit different from the feeling we usually get at the end. Did you choose to play this song last, in line with bringing Phalaris to a close?

Well, it was also the first tour to play Kamuy. If we had played it at previous tours, it might have ended up in a different spot in the setlist. But for sure, to play it for the first time at the final, it could go in no other spot. Even if we were to do a seperate final in a big venue, I think it would still come at the end of the encore, not the end of the main.

ーEnding the live with the disquieting tone of Kamuy in the air, then raising the lights and bidding farewell to the audience...even with this familiar parting scene, its quite different from past tours.

With that we simply just want to say thank you to the people who came. Its a way to express thanks at the end of each show. We could just disappear off stage after Kamuy if we wanted to, but as I was saying before about 'the type of person who is stood on the stage', I want to keep this time that I have to express my thanks to the peole who come to see us. I mean, the 5 of us could all gather together in the centre for a farewell or something too, but that kind of structure somehow doesn't seem very 'us' (lol)

ー Yeah, lets save that for another occasion (lol) By the way, it must have been a difficult transition to go from finishing this phase of Phalaris, to confronting the new single 19990120.

Well, it wasnt easy. We did the 25th anniversary tour last year, so from there it was like, 'Should we do some old stuff?'. We would usually be looking at doing new material at this kinda time, but we talked about it, and what with covid and such, we thought there might be a few people out there who hadn't been to see a live show for a while. So we thought we could use some kind of tool to get more people coming back as we move forward. Not in the sense of making an album of self covers or anything, but since the 25th anniversary of our debut is in Jan 2024, we thought we might as well try something. We just wanna try out what we can, because of course there is always loads that we can't.

ーYeah. Self covers or remakes can give the impression of being backwards looking, but as we talked about how past songs have fit so well in the current tour and helped you realise how far you've come, it could be said that looking afresh at these songs from 25 years ago might be the link to future discoveries.

Whether or not this links to new things is hard to tell untill we do it, that wasn't really in my mind. But for now its more like a tool to stir up the 'Lets go and see Dir en grey again' feeling. I can say this, back in the day there were a lot of so-called heavy bands I used to go and see. I admired them and started my own band, I'm that kind of person too (lol) But I think a lot of people like that eventually start to think 'Ah, I havnt listened to that kind of music for a while', they even stop listening to music at all sometimes. Or if they do listen, its the same stuff they listened to back in the day. I wanted to strike a chord with those kind of people and get them thinking about coming to see a show. As well as letting them connect with Phalaris, its just a good starting point to get back in. So these new remakes are part of a plan, as opposed to something we just really wanted to do.

ーDir en grey have rerecored old songs in the past, but those past remakes have been more about updating old songs to match the contemporary sound of the band. Was there no such intention this time?

Its not like there was NO intention, of course, we wanted to put some of our current selves into them while making them. But we didn't want to change them outright. So in that sense, they are different from our past remakes.

ー Without trying to make any big intentional changes, you wanted the natural differences between then and now to shine through?

Yeah, that kind of thing. I think in that sense, we achieved our aim.

ー I see. I actually dug up an old interview from 25 years ago, and have been re-reading it. In it you were speaking about the background to each song and such, but Kaoru, how did you feel back then about releasing 3 songs at once for your major debut?

I though it was a great talking point, but it was hard work (lol) We had first talked about releasing two songs. So we went to LA with this idea and got to work in the studio, but then it somehow got suggested to do three songs. I honestly didn't even know how we were gonna get even two songs recorded, so I was rather skeptical that we could manage three. (lol)

ーWhat song was number 3?

That was Yurameki. We had started pre-production on all three at first, and sent them to Yoshiki. After that we chose the diametrically opposed Zan and Akuro no oka as the two songs to record. But when we went to LA, it was like, 'Ok, lets just do all three'.

ーI can hear the voice of your producer when you say that (lol). Back then, it wasn't that unusual for two songs to be released as a single at once in this category, but three had a big impact. What kind of things made a big impression on your memory back then?

Firstly, there were a lot of people around. Also, it was non-stop photoshoots and interviews. I was always writing music within this kind of bustling situation. It was really easy to lose focus of where we were heading with it all, so I tried to keep a tight hold on only that. But there were still a lot of days where I just had no idea what I was supposed to be doing.

ーYou were having like, 10 interviews at day, right? Wasn't it a bit like those artists who come to Japan for promotion, but like every day?

Yeah, even for photoshoots we would have 3 different studios booked, going here, going there, interviews in between, every time.

ーI'd like to ask about the three songs. On the new release, Yurameki is song number one. Was there any meaning behind recording them in this order?

After finishing the arangements, when we were starting the recording stage, we thought this order would be good based on how the song starts and ends. Its only for this reason.

ーI was going to ask more about the song order, but as for Yurameki, it was a bit of a curve ball for Dir en grey back in the day, wasn't it?

No, not really. We had melodious songs even then, I didn't think it was that much of a curve ball. Its Shinya's song, but he had been writIng songs during the indies era too. It was a recognition of our Shinya-esque songs.

ーAt the time, you said, 'Its a pop song, but we wanted to change up the style'. Does that mean you thought a lot about how to put it out there?

In the end, if we kept it ordinary, it would end up sounding like a totally ordinary song. I actually paid a lot of attention to parts that you wouldn't notice even if you listened to the song (lol). For example, the chord work. Yoshiki would tell me to do impossible things like, 'How about we try this?'

ーWhat do you mean by 'impossible'?

To put it simply, impossible chords and stuff. (lol) But he would say, 'Its only for the recording, so its ok, right?' So we changed our plans, and recorded all the chords one string at a time, then layered them up to make the sound. Not like playing every string simultaneously, but recording phrases one string at a time. So in the end the texture of the sound came out with more of a bang. I was spending a lot of time on those parts that no-one would probably notice.

ーIn other words, you deconstructed the song during recording.

Yes, I took advantage of the fact that they were chords that couldn't be played normally, and recorded them in a way which was unique to the studio.

ーI see. And about the songs Akuro no Oka and Zan, Yoshiki's opposite comments about both songs are in this old article. You said that for the former, he said he was concerned about the collision of sounds, and for the latter, he said 'I don't care about the collision of sounds'.

Heh, that sounds about right.

ー The collision of sounds. These are words I sometimes hear. In short, its where sounds are mixing at a place and a time where they shouldn't, right?

Yes. Maybe its because I'm a guitarist, but I tend to like adding more and more sounds and layering them up. I would suggest something like, 'I want to add this kind of phrase here', and Yoshiki would say, 'No, that gets in the way of the other sounds, change it'. So I would add something different, and he would say, 'No, thats no good either. Do you really need to add something here?'. For me it was like, 'well, I may not need to, but I want to'. It might be a guitarist thing. I say this, because Yoshiki did tell me, 'HIDE was like that, always wanting to add extra stuff in'. (lol)

ーIt must have sent shivers down your spine to hear that. In addition to this, you also said about Akuro no oka, that 'Including the guitar solo, the developments in this song are really satisfying to play'. Is it these chord progressions and such that feel pleasant to guitarists as a rule?

That is part of it. I've always felt comfortable playing this song. But when we were doing the remake, I did wonder whether I should try to go even further with it. Like, could I make it feel even more satisfying? I did actually try it, but it ended up feeling so good, it didn't line up with the original song anymore (lol). So I gave that up. It wasn't Akuro no oka anymore, it had a kind of palacial feel to it. I thought this wouldn't work (lol)

ーI feel like I also want to hear the palacial version, but we do need to preserve the foundations of the song, right? (lol) Okay, so next, the complete opposite of Akuro no oka, Zan. The song itself had been around from the beginning, and it seems like it went through many minor changes to get to where it was?

Well, because we had played it a bit live. But originally, we made it in the studio with me just telling everyone stuff like, 'Im gonna play this part like this, so you play the drums like this' etc etc. And then for the CD release, I actually remade the arrangement, so we could do it properly.

ーGenerally speaking, this is the least fitting of the three songs to be a single. Did you ever question or doubt putting this out as a single?

No, I definitely wanted to release it. So much so as to even say 'I want Zan as the first song' (lol). But it would be tough with only Zan, so thats how we came around to the idea of releasing two songs. Like, 'It has impact, but we need something with a different feel to it too'.

ーI see. It might have been a lot different if not for this decision. The three songs were recorded at the studio 'ONE ON ONE' in LA. (Note: This later became 'EXTASY STUDIO' when Yoshiki bought it, and is now in the hands of a different owner under the name '17 HERZ STUDIO'). This place was well-known for being used by Metallica, but how was it, recording overseas so suddenly?

Well, it was super luxurious. I've never had such a cushty recording experience since (lol)

ーDid you feel like, 'We made it!'?

No, I didn't. Not that long before that I had being doing home recordings, or usIng super tiny studios etc up until our indies era. So no, even being placed in that situation didn't make me feel like we'd made it. It was more like, 'Okay, what do we do now?' (lol) Being in that unfamiliar environment, there was a lot of pressure to make something lasting. We had unlimited use of equipment, but at that stage in our growth, we had limited knowledge, and undeveloped ears. So even if we heard something, we were unable to tell whether or not it really sounded good. It was me, who listened to nothing but heavy music, being told, 'Maybe this sounds better?', but then just responding, ' Nah, I just wanna make it sound more distorted'(lol) I only ever had this kind of exchange back then. But of course, my knowledge, brain, and ears were not fit for that environment. It was a bit of a waste in some sense. But it could be quite interesting if we were to do that kind of thing now. I didnt understand how the sound of a studio works back then, but if it was now, as well as having understanding, I would be able to really experiment with different things. I'd understand about mic positioning, about creating ambience, and all sorts. But back then I knew nothing. (lol)

ー Its seems almost pointless to be in that environment with such a lack of understanding and appreciation, but I think the experience itself probably meant a great deal to you, right?

Yes. I learned the importance of taking time to make something. Looking at a song from different angles, trying to dig into it in different ways. Before that things were never really much deeper than, 'Ok guys, lets make something'. I learned how to put great care into my work for the duration.

ーIts a very valuable thing to learn early on that its not all easy. Ok, so in January you will hold the FC limited live shows in Kawasaki and Osaka. You'll be in 25th debut anniversary mode in mid-Jan, right?

Well, yeah. And after that is the European tour, which will be a bit different from a regular tour. And the after that, a domestic tour entitled PSYCHONNECT. This time its 25 years since Gauze (lol).

ーIt's one anniversary after another, right?

Yeah (lol) The timing was just right to fit a tour in this Spring, and when we talked about what kind of thing to do, a Gauze themed hall tour was suggested.

ーJust to make things clear, this doesn't mean you are going to re-record the whole of Gauze, does it?

No no no (lol). If we did that people would be like, 'Enough of this already, record some new material!' (lol)

ーOf course. But at same time, I'm still kinda curious about hearing something like that.

Even if we were to do that, now isn't the time for it. People would end up thinking, 'What, are you gonna rerecord your entire catalogue??' (lol) That wouldn't be much fun.

ーYeah, interest would drop if it was nothing but rewriting history.

If I was a fan, I'd probably be thinking, 'Is this all they're doing from now on?'

ーRight. The thing we are really all waiting for is some new material after fully digesting Phalaris. Have you begun anything in that direction?

Nope, not yet (lol). I don't even know whether its ok to say this, but I haven't started yet. But actually, I was thinking about getting started today (lol).

ーYou might start writing new music straight after this interview?

Yeah, the interview just came into my schedule at exactly this time.

ーI can't wait to hear what you come up with. When I interviewed you just after the completion of Phalaris, you said that with no regular touring during covid, it had been difficult to communicate and exchange ideas with the other members. Does this mean that normality has returned to the bands' interactions. Are you able to make new music whilst interating with the other members on tour again?

Yes, we had already got back to a sense of normality by the tour before this. but now we are actually discussing next moves and stuff, and we are ready to get started. Straight after this interview, to be exact (lol).

ーLet me ask you one more thing. We touched earlier on the European tour which will be held in March. Its the first overseas tour to have past albums as a theme. What were you thinking about when deciding this?

We had originally talked about doing it in 2022 as part of the 25th anniversary run. But with the pandemic, and also trying to balance it out with the Phalaris tour, we were unable to make it happen then, so we slided it over to 2024 just as it was. People might be wondering why we are doing it at this time, but we had planned to do it from before, and now we just finally have the chance to.

ーWould you like to return to overseas touring as it used to happen previously?

Well, yeah, but its not easy. The reality is a lot different now than how it used to be. Its really not as simple as to just say, 'Let's go' now. In this case, we managed to make it work by seeing if we could do it at this particular time, but I can't be sure about future overseas tours. So to the fans in Europe, I want them to come and see us this time. Don't wait for next tme.

ーIts really interesting that the themes for this European tour are Uroboros and Withering to death. Your first ever tour of Europe was with Withering to death. These two albums have been influential in Dir en grey's overseas activities.

Yeah, we were overseas the most with those albums, and with The Marrow Of A Bone. I had thought about digging a little deeper, era-wise. Like maybe taking Vulgar overseas or something. Maybe if we have a chance in the future.

ー There are still many paths open to you. What about a Gauze world tour?

Heh, that would require a lot of motivation (lol) It would be impossible otherwise (lol)

ーWhether or not you ever manage that, there are still a lot of other things you need to do, and things you can do. I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of year 2024 is for you.

Thank you. Hopefully it won't be long before we have something new to put out.

#dir en grey #kaoru #薫 #I agree that Phalaris is thier best album #great interview #Comments about overseas touring #Vulgar overseas tour!#long post

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