#one-sided wincest implications

[ladylilithprime]

Day 19: Dark & Stormy Night

(Set in the werewolf!Sam universe, after Day 9 but before Day 13.)

THE ONLY MOTEL for miles around had a no pets policy, so Dean bit his tongue and smiled charmingly while checking himself in with his "boyfriend", and used a role of duct tape from the Impala's trunk to tape the curtains tightly over the windows once he and Sam were in the room. It wouldn't do anything to stop what was coming any more than the thick cloud cover would, what had them taking the room anyway just to be settled in and safe behind a locked door before moonrise, but it would keep any nosy or unsuspecting people from getting an eyeful of more than just a couple of naked men in a compromising position.

Not that Dean planned on getting naked unless it was in the shower, but Sam had already stripped off his shirts and was working on his shoes and socks now. "Dude, you can't even wait for the door to be locked?"

"You didn't do that already the moment we were inside?" Sam shot back, eyebrows raised. "Don't forget the salt tapes!"

"I'm not going to forget the salt tapes," Dean lied, taping down the final edge of the curtain and digging into his duffle bag. He had forgotten them for a moment, more worried about someone seeing than something getting in, but he wasn't about to admit that. The huffed laugh from behind him let him know that Sam didn't believe him anyway, but his brother kindly didn't call him on it. He even stopped his undressing long enough to help Dean unroll the clear cellophane tape "ropes" filled with salt and secure them along the bottom of the door jam and the bottom and top of the curtained window. Really, Sam's friend Jess had been incredibly helpful to them with this suggestion, among other things. They may have been more bulky and noticeable than a basic salt line and taken more time to remove when they needed to bug out, but they were more secure and solid than loose salt and they ended up with much less salt wasted. "How come nobody else among hunters ever thought of doing this, anyway?"

"You'd think Dad at least would've considered it, given how paranoid he was," Sam agreed. "Or even Rufus or Bobby."

"Rufus would be checking them constantly for breaks or gaps," Dean snorted. "And Bobby went and laid down permanent salt lines under the paint around every door and window in his house, so who knows if he ever thought of something like this for a temporary measure. Betcha if Dad had thought about it, he still would'a put down regular salt lines even with the ropes!"

"Yeah, that tracks," Sam snickered. His hands dropped to his belt and Dean averted his eyes back down to his duffle bag, still not a hundred percent comfortable actually watching his brother getting naked even if he was starting to get used to seeing it. Every bit of it, since Sam didn't exactly flaunt himself but he also wasn't nearly as shy and selfconscious as he'd been as a gangly teenager before he left for Stanford. Dean sometimes wondered if it had been college that had boosted Sam's confidence or being turned into a werewolf, but he hadn't worked up the courage yet to ask. Either way, his little brother definitely wasn't so little anymore, and he had nothing to be ashamed about.

"Wind's picking up outside," Sam murmured, making Dean look up again. His brother was looking at the covered window, his expression troubled. "Smells like the storm that was rolling in is picking up speed."

"Tornado?" Dean asked, tensing. On a full moon night, they couldn't risk leaving to try and outrun it or get out of the path and still be safe before moonrise.

Sam paused, closing his eyes and cocking his head to one side, listening. He sniffed, then breathed in deeply, his bare chest expanding with it and distracting Dean briefly with the play of light and shadow across his smooth pecs and abs and the dusky brown of his perked nipples. He wrenched his eyes away and tried to focus on the lurid wallpaper in the room before Sam's super sniffer caught something they couldn't just keep on ignoring for a little while longer.

"If it is gonna form up into a twister, it's not likely to go over us," Sam said at length. "Not impossible, mind, but unlikely. Not ruling out a thunderstorm, though."

"You gonna be okay with that?" Dean asked, looking at Sam again, his concern overriding the awkward. Sammy had never dealt particularly well with thunderstorms as a kid with the flashing lighting and loud rolling thunder. Dean didn't know how being transformed with his hearing dialed up to eleven was gonna go for Sam now.

From the sardonic look on Sam's face, he'd probably guessed at least half of where his big brother's thoughts had gone.

"I'm an adult now, jerk," he drawled, flopping down on the bed in a lazy sprawl, drawing Dean's eyes inexorably down the entire adult length of him. "I'll be just fine."

"We'll see, bitch," Dean retorted as he turned to stow his duffle under the warded window.

The pillow to the back of his head was expected, and probably deserved.

JUST FINE MY ass, Dean thought three hours later as another loud roll of thunder crashed about over their heads, making Sammy whine and burrow closer against Dean's side. He held the words back and just carefully stroked a hand over his brother's thick fur from the top of his head to the base of his tail, over and over, steady and slow, his other arm stretched out and curled around Sam to bracket him without restraining him.

It still amazed Dean that Sam was willing to let him close like this when he was all wolfed out, that even in the grip of the full moon his brother still knew and trusted him enough to let him close, and trusted himself enough to be close. Probably helped that Dean made a point of divesting himself of anything silver beforehand and only kept the standard gun and a salted iron knife under his pillow just in case. Because Dean absolutely trusted his brother not to lose control or hurt him, no matter what form - he'd more than proved that over the last year they'd been on the road together - and if something ever slipped and they both ended up going furry once a month, well... Dean was coming around to the idea that it might not be so bad so long as he had Sammy with him.

Assuming that Sam would even want to stick with him, once this thing with the demons was really over and his brother could go back to Stanford. That he'd even want Dean's emotionally constipated ass and ever-growing arrest record near his shiny college life and future law degree.

...That he'd want to keep Dean in his life at all.

The wet nose and furry snout jabbing him in the ribs dragged him out of his head and he grunted, looking down at Sam in annoyance. "What was that for, bitch?"

For someone with a wolf's face and limited range of expression, Sammy still managed to give him a remarkably unimpressed stare with amber-green canine eyes. With a deep huff, the wolf levered himself up a few inches, just enough to shift over and settle down again with his huge head resting on Dean's chest, his nose an inch away from the amulet just over his heart. Dean swallowed and reached up to scratch behind Sam's ears, earning a softer huff that sounded closer to a contented sigh and a wagging tail smacking gently against his leg.

"Yeah, okay," Dean murmured, burying his fingers in the thick fur as the thunder rumbled again, a little further away now. "Love you, too, Sammy."

No matter what.

[zmediaoutlet]

happy wincest wednesday!! what's an example of an episode or storyline that you think would play out differently with sam/deanna? and is there a trope you think would suit the hetcest dynamic better?

hello, my femme deanna-truth bud, happy wincest wednesday to you. and perhaps it's proof of how fantastically well Deanna cleaves to the actual characterization and canon of the show that every storyline that's popping to mind is just enhanced by the sex/gender change. Like -- soulless!Sam letting Dean get turned into a vampire and how that vampire sire was absolutely a creepy rapist? That but with Deanna? Identical, just more... obvious. Sam having a relationship with Amelia, while Dean has a "relationship" with Benny, and how that's written as a dual affair where they have to dump their mistresses? If Deanna's in Purgatory with Benny, there is absolutely zero question that they were fucking, and it's just actually explicit instead of heavily implicated in subtext.

I think one thing that would maybe genuinely feel different would be the time when Mary came back. You can play it a lot of ways, but it doesn't seem unreasonable that Deanna might have a much more complicated relationship with the absent sainted mother than Dean did. For one thing, Mary doesn't get the safe madonna-distance due to gender difference -- and while Dean's mother-and-wife replacement status for John is subtextual in canon, Deanna gets it with both barrels. When she sees what happens when Mary makes that deal to bring John back -- when she sees that Mary wants to have a 'normal' life -- when she knows that Mary's choices have doomed not just the family in general but Sam in the specific (and setting aside that destiny and literal God have conspired to bring Mary to the place where she would do those things) -- Dean clearly has some resentment but manages to set that aside for the beloved mother on a pedestal. I think Deanna might be significantly more pissed off, and overtly. Rather than simpering big-eyed at the lovely mommy in the white nightgown, I think she'd go quite frosty and resentful and thinking, yeah? You weren't the one who had to deal with what your choices actually meant.

How interesting it'd be to have Sam in the middle of that particular weirdness. Imagine Mary coming out with those little nitpicky 'mom comments' about how Deanna wears her hair or how she dresses or wondering why she cleans her shotgun that way and Deanna getting ready to fucking explode, lol. I wouldn't have given you the damn thing if I didn't think you'd take care of it but times a hundred, a thousand. Imagine Mary making that deal with the Letters and Deanna not just icing her out but fucking decking her in the jaw.

...This actually isn't all that different to canon either, is it, lol. Deanna just always makes whatever textually happens to Dean more intense, more overt, more there, in a way that isn't the lovely interpretability of canon but just IN YOUR FACE. Our little object without agency, parentified and wifed, battered on all sides.

Oh, and for the trope: legit D/s. More obvious on the face of it, but actually more subversive and alarming if you think longer.

[ruinedsam]

What are your top 5 favorite fanfics of all time? :)

Thanks for the ask 😊

I'm just gonna assume you mean spn fics because I would not be able to answer otherwise lol

Answering late because I had to re-read a bunch of fics to find out which ones I like best!

Disclaimer obviously there are a lot more excellent fics I love and also this is a representation of my current tastes, a year ago I would have answered this differently etc. etc.

Not ranked because choosing 5 was hard enough:

a son's duty by saintsamantha: this is the Jack I want, obsessed with Sam, sort of creepy horror child...the whole fic has me going sicko mode

Always By Your Side by threadofgrace (phoenix_and_the_ash): this fic is so eerie and transports the sense of unreality so well. And I Iove Sam and Dean in their dysfunctional glory. Also this is a cat fic but in an evil way. A bit undertagged, but the summary gives you more of an idea what this fic is.

(and we all end up alone) by Lise: I'm a Lise fangirl and was really struggling with what fic of theirs to choose. They write Sam & Lucifer so well, but surprisingly what currently gets me going most is a fic that barely features Lucifer. It's Sam in the end!verse and it's heartwrenching not because it's all bleak, but because Sam does experience some happiness (for a time). It ends before Detroit, but you can really see how it eventually leads to him giving up and saying yes.

Ellie's Giant by cordelia_gray: a rare piece of h/c in this sicko list. It just warms my heart so much whenever I read it. (But also the implications are horrifying if you want to go there). Plus it has POV Outsider which I love.

Wire Inside Me by merle_p: this fic rewired my brain the first time I read it. The concept of mpreg as (body) horror blew my mind and Sam being Jack's biological parent is the shit. I re-read it because I wanted to know if I would still enjoy it now, having lost interest in wincest a while ago, and I really, really did. On a different level than I used to lol but - anyway. Would really recommend it to anyone who likes to read fucked up stuff.

[liamgallaghermpreg]

it's 2023, and i am watching supernatural for the first time

back in 2012, when i was 18, i tried to get into it if only for teh yaoiz – both wincest and destiel were all over my dash at the time – and was tragically too baby. but it's 2023 and it's time to nut up or shut up. egged on by my irls who are re-watching spn, i have decided to embark on this journey along with them. partially, i am doing this because i haven't shared a fandom with @witchoil and @coyotefather in a while and i miss writing with them, but also because this show is a cultural touchstone in transformative works.

i mean, my god, i call myself an omegaverse connoisseur and i haven't even consumed the media that birthed it all? (side note: one episode in and i very much see how dean winchester birthed this genre).

omegaverse aside, i feel this is like, anthropologically and sociologically important to incest shippers (i.e., me) and that i should watch it. it's the same reason i read all of homestuck in 2018 – it's important to understanding transformative works and fandom as a whole.

thus, i begin supernatural. as i write this i'm finishing up the pilot, and holy fuck! it only took 7 minutes to get incestuous! the dean/sam is crazy from the jump, but my god the dean/john implications are...staggering.

also the transmasc coding of dean is very much there. i greatly look forward to my supernatural journey and will be liveblogging it! you can follow along or mute at your leisure #23 spn liveblog.

[schrodingers-dove]

#sorry for being a party pooper but this is a criticism and it's exactly how a lot of people see the show unfortunately @pissdean

to get very serious and (maybe) tedious on what was a serious-post that i guess was more disguised as a joke post than i realized (both the original and response), but i look at the implications of johndean and samdean with actually quite a bit of gravitas and as wrapped up not just in compounding traumas but also with a side of classism (both from canon framing and especially from fandom). i take issue with a lot of characterizations of sam where that isn't taken into account (which at least in my fandom travels, i see a lot).

let him (and everyone else) be worse bc the circumstances of sam and dean's childhoods are grim and not conducive to being well-adjusted or having "normal" emotional reactions. horror is replaced by numbness. love is warped. it's about cognitive dissonance and needing to hold two thoughts at once bc otherwise everything crumbles.

like that's what interests me about the permutations of wincest: sam trying to outrun his childhood rather than process it (bootstrapping himself to college) while dean continues to be mired and stuck bc he's groomed into it and told This Is His Life** and the complexity of john as more than just a villain.

i do think that bc sam gets encouragement to achieve "success" by going to college and getting a white collar job, as a character he does tend to be prone towards more classist attitudes (which comes partly from the writers room since he's a character & doesn't have agency, but also fandom interpretations) and that "upward mobility" removes him from the trauma of his childhood to where he feels like he can just ignore it and move on bc he got out. ppl get out of a Situation and think that removed from the Situation, the Situation will no longer impact them (👋 hi) which is just... not true.

hopefully that made some sense and didn't come across as overly pedantic. i basically don't write original posts on my main anymore bc it's a nightmare of saying stuff and not being able to express myself fully without getting into this type of verbosity.

.

** something of a digression, but even in canon, sam and dean are basically groomed by the circumstances of being raised into hunting as never being able to view themselves as victims. you can read this as darkly as incest, or as "generally" as viewing themselves as never having been dis-empowered (always knowing monsters existed) and therefore as hunters, they cannot be victimized in the same way as civilians. something which i don't think canon ever really settles on one way or the other but sure is something to chew on given the amount of metaphorical and literal sexual assault perpetrated against men in the show.

can't sleep and thinking about sam finding out about john and dean and his immediate knee jerk reaction isn't disgust or shock or anything like that, but instead it's aggravation that his family would be this type of trashy

after that feel is felt, he's thinking about john doesn't treat dean right but oh, he'd make sure to treat dean right and not put such a valuable possession in harm's way

i just love a horrible little man

[whateverthedragonswant]

I'll try to address your points. It's gonna be long and might sound confrontational but I'm just sharing my thoughts, which are evidently very different than yours.

Ideas are not crimes. I'm not American but afaik, USA doesn't jail you for thought crimes. Nevermind for the "crime" of shipping a relationship between fictional characters. So while incest is illegal in states, shipping wincest is not. Even wanting to see wincest onscreen is not a crime.

You will be jailed in my country for having same sex relationships. The society will shun you. And while new gen is changing, majority are still against lgbt. But even in my country, people will not prosecute you for shipping gay ships. By that posts logic, they should start doing it, coz being gay is illegal and anyone who ships gay ships are committing a crime. That's what the post you re-blogged implied. Just with fictional incest(which you think is morally wrong) but not with fictional lgbt(which many in my country think is morally wrong).

1) Shipping is a fanon activity. Shipping is not activism, it's not about forcing the creators to make your ship canon. Its about personal interpretations, about creative expression. So your point about rules of spn universe is moot. Wincest shippers aren't out there harassing creators and actors to make their ship canon, they aren't using fake activism to make incest mainstream, they are just shipping a "scandalous" ship. Even then, I'd like to point that rules of spn universe allowed a possessed father to kiss a daughter so if Sam or Dean were female? They might have put a kiss between them to show some horror.

2) Supernatural started as horror with gothic elements. Incest is a horror trope. Spn consists of unhealthy dynamics, codependent bonds and obsession that blurs lines. It's also got a lot of covert/emotional incest going on, and there were deliberate choices made both by actors and creators.(remember Kripke had Mary kiss her Father) I'm not invested in wincest. But if you say the writers wanted to make them healthy then I have got to disagree.

You can't apply real life situations to Sam and Dean's unique case. None of us have sold our souls for siblings, none of us have our siblings as our soulmates, none of us have gone through hell trauma. Because it's a made up story which has no counterpart in reality. It's something a lot of ppl miss.

I'll also have to disagree with you about Dean. Dean's obsessed with his brother. He crosses all kind of boundaries and violates Sam's consent, even his body autonomy. His Siren is literally a submissive, agreeable little brother. You can avoid the implications or falsely claim it validates bi dean(it doesn't, or conversely if it does then it also validates wincest, perhaps one sided) but doesn't mean that rest of us will do the same. Heck, for all the "growth" he's gone through, Dean literally waits in heaven for Sam. Doing nothing until he's reunited with his soulmate. So pls don't give any credit to writers because they didn't dismantle the codependency.

3) Destiel doesn't have moral high ground if we're talking about power imbalance. Cas is billions of years older to Dean. He's also so much more powerful to Dean. He's been abusive to Dean, he's beaten Dean bloody, he's manipulated Dean, he's encroached on Dean's personal space. I can write a 10000 word essay on why destiel is also problematic(or send you links from Destiel shippers who write excellent meta about the same). Sure, it's not incest so it doesn't have the "yikes" factor but when you want to enforce your ship on others (which is what destiel shippers essentially do when they argue it is canon), you'll have to acknowledge it's flaws. If wincest glorifies abuse then so does destiel. If there are wincest shippers who get off on abuse then there are destiel shippers who get off on Cas beating Dean. There are posts with thousands of notes if you wanna check.

I acknowledge the unhealthy relationship dynamics between Sam and Dean(I hope you do for Dean and Cas). But unlike you, I blame the show for glorifying abuse and not the shippers. The show literally put Sam and Dean together for eternity, had Dean wait for Sam like he had no other purpose even after his death. But that's what the show chose to do so there's nothing I can do. What I won't do is to police other ppl for shipping things that make me uncomfortable. As long as they don't force me to believe their version (you know like hellers do) I don't care.

4) I'm a woc. I'm from a poor, ultra conservative country. I don't get or understand or agree with all of western ideas. Not to shade anyone, but a lot of ideas and identity's west pushes are ridiculed by our society and will only set lgbt community back. When you are dirt poor, when you have bigger, more life threatening problems you don't care about a myriad of identities. Things like QPR or n number of genders are essentially first world problems. Its one of the reasons why I don't interact with spn fandom much, it's like walking on egg shells when you aren't coming from a westernzied perspective. Which is hilarious coz it shows that for all the talk of inclusiveness, diversity of thought is shunned the moment you say things that go against the narrative. I hope I don't get cancelled for saying this but I won't be surprised if I do.

5)I don't ship J2. I find RPF a slippery slope. It can be ok if ppl keep boundaries but they don't. Fans today are very entitled and have no shame about blasting their personal jerk off fantasies in actors face and I find that culture distasteful. Hence you won't see me defending J2 shippers.

Initially Jensen wasn't comfortable with wincest or J2 or destiel or cockles. He's learnt to tolerate them. He had to. He wasn't comfortable with the poses destiel shippers asked in photo ops. He said no plenty of times and eventually he stopped saying no. He admitted that in last panel, you can check the video. The fans called him homophobic when he said his character was straight, when he said he didn't play Dean as bi, when he said destiel doesn't exist. I find it really sad how he's been treated and how his boundaries have been disrespected and eroded over the years. But it's what it is.

What you need to understand is this. J2 aren't anti wincest or destiel. As in, they don't care if you ship either. J2 joke about wincest. Send wincest fanfiction/art to each other. Prank Alex. They don't even care if you ship J2 or cockles. They might have in early years, but like I said, they had to get used to it. But they care when you blast your ship in their face and ask them to validate it. They didn't play wincest or destiel. Jensen didn't play a bi character. Didn't play Dean as in love with Cas or Sam. It's exactly why Jared talked about platonic love in Denver con. They are graciously allowing you your interpretation but asking you to not impose your views on them. Think about that.

Personally I'd be much less gracious in their shoes. If people disregarded my words about a character I played for 15 years and said I'm homophobic/in-closet if i dare to say my character is straight? I'd loss my cool. Like imagine the disrespect. And yes, it's disrespectful coz it invalidates an actor's portrayal of his character. It's one thing if bi dean or destiel was explicitly planned or written, which it wasn't. Bi dean was never written or acted, and destiel wasn't written or planned for 14 seasons. There was one ambiguous confession in last season which means J2 (or anyone else) have all the right to see it as platonic.

I brought up cockles shippers coz they're currently everywhere. J2 ship is almost dead. Cockles isn't. Cockles shippers are also notorious for stalking and harassing Jensen and even Misha. For getting their medical records, utility bills. Look up occamshipper person. They stalk Jensen's location. There are plenty more who do the same.

These shippers have sent Jared death threats. Creation found these threats credible and has recently increased his security because of them. They have tried to cancel Walker. They have spread baseless rumours about Jared(like he's a sexual harasser) and these posts have hundreds of thousands of notes. Jared, who has mhi, who wanted to quit in S10 but only stayed coz he didn't want the crew to loss jobs, who literally cried himself to sleep everyday coz he couldn't handle the pressure. This man who donates millions to LGBT charities and who suffered so much during supernatural, they bully and harass him because of a rpf ship. They send him death threats. When shipping has real life impacts like this, it needs to be called out. You talked about a fictional ship(wincest) hurting real life people and here I have given you the real hurt caused by cockles shippers/hellers.

I don't have the energy to respond to your last paragraphs but I just wanna say that Jensen has repeatedly enforced boundaries, has expressed discomfort about aggressive RPF shipping, about being asked to make poses with Misha. But cockles shippers have never respected his boundaries. They have asked him to sign sexual pictures etc. Just this con a Jared hater got a J2M op and asked Jensen to dip Misha, which Jensen refused. They might as well ask him to kiss Misha for photo ops in next con. Sadly it seems like his boundaries have been worn down. In his own words, he's given up. And I get him, it's exhausting. You eventually learn to do shocking, uncomfortable things coz saying no becomes exhausting after a 100 requests. That too when you are a man and women are asking you. Or perhaps he doesn't want to be called homophobic. God knows cockles (or destiel) shippers have done that multiple times, even had articles published on news sites.

I feel like you're low key victim blaming Jensen for not being firm with his boundaries even if that's not your intention. I do have counter arguments to those points and about Misha's baiting but I don't have time now. I might send a separate ask later if i find the energy but for now I'll leave you with this one.

Have a nice day.

Alright. Anon, I am going to respond to this but under the cut so it doesn’t clog up any dashes. Like you stated in your ask, my reply may come across/sound confrontational, or at the very least like I’m kicking off a debate, but I assure you, it’s neither. I will make one point here, though, that I do feel I need to address first and foremost:

I'm just going to get this one out of the way quickly before the cut. I must admit I am rather exhausted by the topic of Jensen these days and my supposed intentions regarding him as an individual. (which is a shame because it's not the man himself, just his stanbase/”fans” aka AA’s that are the ones to blame for my current feelings on the topic) It’s to the point where I don’t even want to see any content come across my dash that has anything to do with him. (I’m not talking about Dean, the character obviously is different) Whether that be him, Danneel, Jared, Misha, Rob, Radio Company, etc that has anything to do with Jensen. And I cannot tell you how much that irritates me because I am a fan of his and want to continue to be but I can’t help how I currently feel. I am tired of my words about this man being taken out of context, misconstrued, distorted, and then thrown back at me as if it’s damning evidence that I am victim blaming the man in a situation or rooting for him to be treated badly by past co-stars. For someone who has experienced similar things in their lives to what I have and to be told these things as if they are facts and that I should be ashamed of being such a “horrible person”, I cannot even begin to tell you how demoralizing this is and just how wrong and toxic these types of responses/statements are. I know you are just stating your perspective on my statements, but man am I tired. I am NOT victim blaming Jensen at all when it comes to the Cockles topic and his interactions with his fans. I believe I even said that specifically in my response to your previous ask if you go back and read through that section again. And I also mentioned Misha as well. I wasn't victim blaming him or Danneel or Jared or Gen or anyone. I said that specifically so I have to say that I am rather surprised at that being your takeaway from my statements. All I said is that they should assert stronger boundaries if they truly feel uncomfortable with any fan interactions they are having (in this case, you mentioned Cockles as a specific example). That’s just common sense. Jensen is a grown man and his own person; he can make these decisions for himself. Same goes for JP, MC, DA, GP, the SPN cast, and any other individual walking the planet.

Now, that being said, onto below the cut:

TLDR; wincest is still harmful when it glorifies abuse, I don’t care about J2 or Cockles, destiel is a lot healthier than wincest for many reasons, Jensen can handle himself as can Jared and Misha (the latter two who I am rather indifferent towards, the name of the blog is jackles-coded after all), destiel is indeed canon, the show did not canonize wincest and they were never going to — I think that about covers it all

Now, anon, I am going to respond to each point you made in the following breakdown (and it's going to get long which is why I put the TLDR section above) but let me start out with two very important points:

1) I appreciate you stating that you are just posting your thoughts. That helps set the tone and I am grateful you did that. I think that is super important when having civil discourse where there may be different parties disagreeing.

2) I have been in the SPN fandom close to 2 years now but that's it. I have not been in the fandom before then. I watched the show, sure, and I knew who J2M were but I had no idea of anything fandom-related. I have absolutely no idea as to the history of what Jensen has dealt with previously (except infamous examples that are either still being talked about on this site by fans, i.e. topics like Kelios, or that people have posted about specifically), nor do I know what Jared or Misha has dealt with previously, separately and together. I am a Jensen fan but that does not mean I know every single detail or facet of every encounter that he has ever had. Only he does, as well as maybe Danneel, his representation, and his possible security team. If he has stated his discomfort with the materials he has been presented with before by fans at photo ops and they still don't respect it, then they're obviously not real fans of his. And you can think I am victim blaming him again should you desire to do so, but I will say this point again because this is absolute truth: if they continue to make him uncomfortable, then he has the right to assert stronger boundaries. He is in a position that he can do that, Anon. If he wants to say no to a photo op, he can do that. If he doesn't want to answer a question, he can do that, too. It's all within HIS power, Anon. Just like any individual, but even more so because it's related to his actual safety and comfort levels. Any trained mental health professional, any communication and/or social interaction/relationship expert, anyone walking around with common sense, will say the same. Because that’s just a basic fact. If you don’t like something, say no. That’s not sitting there in judgment about it or saying this individual is bad if they don’t; it’s telling someone that if they don’t like something or how they’re being treated to stand up for themselves, to lay down boundaries and to be assertive when doing so. That’s not victim blaming; that’s good and important advice. And it’s advice that is given throughout the world to all different people in all different situations/industries. Advice that trained professionals give repeatedly whether that be a business coach to a CEO or a counselor to a patient or a parent to a school age child or a relationship expert to someone who is dating/in a serious relationship. It applies in various ways. So to look at this common knowledge as victim blaming is just beyond the scope of rationality in my opinion. It’s communication 101 in various types of interactions and relationships worldwide. If you do not know what I am referring to, then please research it and you will see what I’m speaking of.

Now, onto your ask:

Ideas are not crimes. I'm not American but afaik, USA doesn't jail you for thought crimes. Nevermind for the "crime" of shipping a relationship between fictional characters. So while incest is illegal in states, shipping wincest is not. Even wanting to see wincest onscreen is not a crime.

You will be jailed in my country for having same sex relationships. The society will shun you. And while new gen is changing, majority are still against lgbt. But even in my country, people will not prosecute you for shipping gay ships. By that posts logic, they should start doing it, coz being gay is illegal and anyone who ships gay ships are committing a crime. That's what the post you re-blogged implied. Just with fictional incest(which you think is morally wrong) but not with fictional lgbt(which many in my country think is morally wrong).

I’m going to state this up front: I appreciate your perspective and I appreciate even more that you are sharing information about your country with me and the perspective there. As you probably surmised from our exchanges, I do live in the US so I don’t want to assume anything about your country or the laws there or respond to any part of that because I don’t feel that I am educated enough on that topic or I don't want to make any assumptions of knowing how things are like there from your perspective and your experience. I only know what you tell me. So please don’t take offense but I’m not going to respond to the US vs your country on the LGBTQIA matters or any differences between the two.

Having said that, I am going to respond to your other points that involve the fandom, the ships, and the actors, though: I never said shipping wincest or any other incestuous ship is a crime. I stated that incest itself is a crime in the US. Between real people. As a reader (and reblogger) of that post, I did not see the op stating that all wincest shippers should be put in jail for the crime of shipping a fictional incestuous pairing. I saw them referring to incest being a crime as a general point because not only is it illegal here, it’s also taboo. To be honest, I think you are taking what they said too literally. But that’s your perspective. So at this point, like you said, we have very different thoughts on this, and I think if you have anything further you’d like to discuss about that particular post, you should take it up with the op. I cannot speak to their intention or implications when they stated their opinion, and it’s not right for anyone to hold me accountable for that one part of their statement because I'm not them and I didn't type it and that also wasn’t the reason I reblogged it (which I elaborated on in your previous ask’s response). I have never posted here that I feel anyone shipping wincest (or any other fictional incestuous pairing) should be put in prison for shipping that ship and I honestly think you are taking what that op said way too literally, as I stated before. Perhaps it’s time for you to share your thoughts with that op in the comments section of said post. I myself will no longer be responding to any discourse/asks/replies/messages about this particular reblogged post.

1) Shipping is a fanon activity. Shipping is not activism, it's not about forcing the creators to make your ship canon. Its about personal interpretations, about creative expression. So your point about rules of spn universe is moot. Wincest shippers aren't out there harassing creators and actors to make their ship canon, they aren't using fake activism to make incest mainstream, they are just shipping a "scandalous" ship. Even then, I'd like to point that rules of spn universe allowed a possessed father to kiss a daughter so if Sam or Dean were female? They might have put a kiss between them to show some horror.

2) Supernatural started as horror with gothic elements. Incest is a horror trope. Spn consists of unhealthy dynamics, codependent bonds and obsession that blurs lines. It's also got a lot of covert/emotional incest going on, and there were deliberate choices made both by actors and creators.(remember Kripke had Mary kiss her Father) I'm not invested in wincest. But if you say the writers wanted to make them healthy then I have got to disagree.

I am genuinely confused by this part. How did we get onto the topic of activism? Who said that anyone, destiel or wincest or any other pairing, attempted to force the show to make their ship canon? And whoever said that shipping wasn’t a fandom activity? It always has been? It’s the very core of shipping and all that activity entails.

Allow me to remind you, Anon: I have only been in the SPN fandom for close to 2 years now (I want to say it was Summer 2020 when I took a dive into the fandom?) so if you’re referring to things in the past for either ship (or any other SPN ship), I have no clue what you’re talking about.

Wait a minute, you just said: “Shipping is a fanon activity. Shipping is not activism, it's not about forcing the creators to make your ship canon. Its about personal interpretations, about creative expression. So your point about rules of spn universe is moot.” So how are universe rules a moot point then? There have to be rules when creating a universe because it all goes into the structure of the story telling. For example, the White Walkers in GoT wouldn’t be a threat to Westeros if Westerosi people could just look at them and melt them with their minds without breaking a sweat. It’s a rule that White Walkers can only be destroyed by fire. Thus, comes the conflict/issue of how dangerous the White Walkers really are en masse and what a threat they are to the world if they overrun it. And Jon Snow and Co have to figure out a way to stop them. Rules are very much an essential aspect of world building. If you are a writer who creates worlds for stories you want to tell, then you know this to be a very important factor in the creative process.

Okay, I’m sorry, but I am going to say that you are incorrect, or more appropriately, maybe you misunderstood what I said. Trust me when I tell you that I know what I am talking about on this topic. It’s all about narrative sense. For example, as GRRM said, if spaceships landed in Westeros and aliens popped out to say hello to Daenerys or the Starks, it wouldn't make any sense because aliens are not a part of the universe. Because that rule was not applied when the universe was created. Rules are a tool that writers utilize when creating a universe to tell a story within that universe, regardless of whatever medium they are writing the story for.

Some examples of the SPN universe rules:

if someone is cursed by a witch due to a hex bag, the hex bag needs to be found and destroyed in order to lift the curse.

Salt is a protective material that assists in ghost hunting, as does iron.

Chuck and Amara do not have power over The Empty because that entity is older than they are.

When angels and demons die, they go to The Empty.

When monsters die, they go to Purgatory.

Heaven was a collection of a person’s memories until Jack and Cas change it before Dean gets there so everyone can be together.

Dean and Sam cannot be possessed by demons due to their anti-possession tattoos. Angels cannot track them after Cas marks them with specific sigils on their bones. As long as the guys continue to have both, they cannot be possessed and/or tracked by the common angel.

These are all examples of universe rules. Dean dating, sleeping with, and/or marrying Sam would not make sense within these rules because the incest-is-acceptable rule was never applied. And the incest-happens-anyway-even-if-it's-taboo rule has also not been applied. (look to stories like Flowers In the Attic for example) And the writers also did not introduce this at any point in the story. There has never been any romantic or sexual tension between Sam and Dean. The two have never been romantically interested or sexually attracted to one another. There has never been anything remotely suggesting that the brothers are more than brothers, at any point, in their history or their story throughout the show.

Here’s what I mean about the incest-is-acceptable rule that I mentioned: Going back to Game of Thrones (I’m going to keep using it as an example since that book series also has its own show, you can see what was adapted rules wise into it from the books), for example, the rules have been set up for acceptable incest, hence the romantic pairing of Jon and Daenerys (in the show), and Jaime/Cersei. Hence the ships for Jonerys, Jonsa, Jonrya, Jaime/Cersei, etc. Because GRRM had put that rule in place when creating that universe. The Targaryens married brother and sister for centuries. So even though the Targaryens’ way of life was acceptable in Westeros while they were in power up until Robert’s Rebellion, once they were no longer in power, sibling incest was no longer acceptable, because that had been exclusive to them. Cousin incest (or other kinds of incest like uncle/niece), however, was acceptable in that world, though it was becoming less and less because marriages were used as transactions if you will, in order to secure powerful alliances, wealth, and to gain power. Just like in history, which GRRM has said he modeled some of that universe after. The rules were set for that universe so when people ship Jonerys or Jonsa or Jonrya, it’s within that framework. Jonyra is a showverse fanon ship, but the fans know that, and from my limited perspective, I do not see them insisting that by Jon hugging Arya at the end, inviting her to The Wall to visit, that that moment was confirmation of their ship going canon or that they were soulmates. Obviously, things remain to be seen in the books for all of the Jon-involved ships and what becomes canon vs what remains fanon in the end. But back to the incest-is-acceptable rule: even when people ship Jaime/Cersei, it’s still within that framework because it’s a part of the story within that universe. While that relationship was framed as immoral, unhealthy, and to be the antithesis of other “sibling” relationships and in comparison/contrast to the Targaryens, it’s still within the rules of the universe because GRRM wove it into the fabric so to speak.

In SPN, Kripke and the writers never did that. So, yes, while wincest might be a fanon ship that people can choose to ship, acceptable incest (or unacceptable incest) is not an actual rule that was set up/applied in the SPN universe. I understand what you’re saying about the elements of horror but again, they never chose to go with that particular element (the incest) that I can remember in Dean and Sam’s story or any other story in the show for that matter. And that example you gave of Samuel Campbell kissing Mary, that actually is not incest for two reasons: 1) Samuel was dead, and was possessed by the YED & 2) that is how demon deals (up to that point in the show anyway) were sealed in the universe (another rule) - remember Dean and the crossroads demon sealing their deal with a kiss in order to bring Sam back in the end of season 2? Or Crowley kissing Bobby and taking a picture which he gleefully shows the boys? Those are events that are playing within the rules of the SPN universe that Kripke and the writers set up. Sam and Dean as a romantic pairing or having sexual contact in any way for whatever reason is not within those rules.

You can't apply real life situations to Sam and Dean's unique case. None of us have sold our souls for siblings, none of us have our siblings as our soulmates, none of us have gone through hell trauma. Because it's a made up story which has no counterpart in reality. It's something a lot of ppl miss.

Um, yes, I can? Because Dean and Sam’s story stays mostly within the US, that means US laws apply to them. Because they are in a modern society, that means rules and norms of that very same modern society apply to them (which means incest is taboo). Which is why we see the guys needing to dodge the police, being sought by the FBI, and committing all kinds of credit card fraud in order to keep themselves afloat as they hunt.

Actually, yes, I can. You can apply real life morals and ideals/belief to Sam and Dean’s story, absolutely. Regardless of the fantastical elements you listed as events people on this planet will never go through, reality still applies. For example, I’ve never fought a huge drooling alien on a spaceship but that doesn’t mean I can’t sympathize with Ellen Ripley in the movie Aliens and identify with the feeling of doing whatever I need to do to keep my child safe and putting my fears aside in order to protect them. It also doesn’t mean that we all cannot identify with the feeling of wanting to do whatever it takes to keep your loved ones safe or doing whatever you can to keep them that way or in much more tragic cases, bring them back.

Don’t forget, there is some reality grounded within fantasy. Lord of the Rings may have elves and orcs and hobbits, but that doesn’t make the realistic elements within that fantasy story any less real. Same for Game of Thrones, or more appropriately, A Song Of Ice and Fire. Same for The Chronicles Of Narnia series and the His Dark Materials Trilogy. Even stories like the King Arthur legend and even Greek mythology. Fables even. There are lessons/morals for the readers as well as some elements of reality within the grand framework of fantasy such as emotions, situations, relationships. An even better example is the show Buffy the Vampire Slayer where the vampires were meant to represent all of the hardships adolescents go through in their journey through high school and on their way towards adulthood. Obviously, we will never know what it feels like to be the Slayer and to be patrolling cemeteries every night in order to engage vampires in battle to keep Sunnydale (or our hometowns) safe, but that doesn’t mean her emotions, the relationships she went through, her growth, and even what she experienced when her mother’s death occurred and her grief any less real. Realistic elements within a fantasy universe. Otherwise, how would we, the viewers (or readers) ever possibly relate to the heroes? The antiheroes? Have sympathy for a villain in a certain moment? Etc.? How would we be able to connect to the characters? To the story being told?

As for Sam and Dean being sibling soulmates, that is purely an interpretive statement, not an official part of the story or an SPN universe rule. While the idea of soulmates (platonic or not) is a fantastical element within a story, it does not belong within the group of examples you gave because, once again, the other events happened within the universe; they are official parts of the story. And the concept of soulmates is not reality-based, not in the way a mother will sacrifice herself to protect her son (like Lily did with Harry in the Harry Potter series) because of how much she loves him and wants him to live.

I'll also have to disagree with you about Dean. Dean's obsessed with his brother. He crosses all kind of boundaries and violates Sam's consent, even his body autonomy. His Siren is literally a submissive, agreeable little brother. You can avoid the implications or falsely claim it validates bi dean(it doesn't, or conversely if it does then it also validates wincest, perhaps one sided) but doesn't mean that rest of us will do the same. Heck, for all the "growth" he's gone through, Dean literally waits in heaven for Sam. Doing nothing until he's reunited with his soulmate. So pls don't give any credit to writers because they didn't dismantle the codependency.

You are certainly free to disagree with me on this and I appreciate you explaining that point, but I must also respectfully disagree with you here. Dean was not obsessed with Sam as you claim. If you read up on parentification and trauma (i.e. abuse, abandonment, neglect) or speak to someone who is proficient in these types of matters or even has experienced it themselves, his relationship with Sam is very on brand for Dean and his characterization/story line. Sam even utilizes this realization he has in season 9 (I think it’s 9, if not it’s 10) when Sam tells Dean that Dean is afraid to be alone and uses that fact against him. We see this play out time and time again: Dean making the demon deal in season 2 to bring Sam back, Dean taking the overdose of pills so he can speak to Billie when Sam is killed by that werewolf, and yes, the one you mentioned, Dean tricking Sam when it came to the Gadreel issue in season 9. That’s not him being obsessed with Sam; that’s him being afraid to be left alone as well as what I mentioned in your previous ask: Sam is his responsibility, he will always overcompensate to save him and protect him. That’s what he has been programmed to do and he and Sam have a toxic codependency. (something the show kept trying to get both brothers to realize when they had other characters throw the fact of how both brothers would unhealthily sacrifice themselves in order to save the other brother in their faces) And of course boundaries between them get violated and often; proper boundaries were never set up between them in the first place. They had to learn and work towards that. Again, another consequence of the abuse (more specifically, the parentification and codependency). Not only did John do his work well with the parentification (and spousification) that he forced onto Dean but also through the abuse (which again, is confirmed in 15x17 by Sam’s own words) which fostered that toxic codependency.

And yes, they did break the codependency. 15x19 was the found family finale, the finale that Dabb and Co. was leading towards with the mythology and characters and later season fans. 15x20 was meant to satisfy the GA and the fans from the first few seasons (while also pushing that core audience towards Walker). This is why Dabb said there were two different finales. 15x20 is literally an alternative episode to 15x19 (should fans continue to watch past 15x19). Dean and Sam have two different endings. While Jensen and Jared may not acknowledge that publicly (I doubt they’re allowed to, tbh), that is the case. I believe that is why they and the show still continue to straddle that fence to this day. “I was in both camps” - that’s literally from Jensen himself in the podcast interview when saying both groups of people who liked the finale and those who didn’t like it, that all of their feelings were valid. If you take what Dabb and Jensen have both said about the finales, and about Dean’s death, it’s all right there. It’s the reason the found family montage was done in 15x19, why the initials were carved into the table in the bunker, why Sam and Dean drink to those they’ve lost, and then drive off together in Baby, on the open road. Conversely, it’s the reason why in 15x20 it’s brothers only, it’s a milk run hunt or a meats and potatoes case (pick whichever analogy you prefer), the OG-Winchester only mantle in Sam’s house, why Sam’s son is named Dean, Blurry Wife, and Dean and Sam end up in Heaven together. Two. Separate. Finales.

And I would just like to make this point: if I lost someone that I loved, no matter who they are to me or what our relationship might be, if they were able, I would hope that they would wait for me in Heaven, too, while being happy and at peace, doing something they loved. That doesn’t characterize or equate to obsession or the concept of soulmates. How many people have near death experiences where they claim to have seen and/or spoken to their loved ones in the forms of friends who have passed or family members or children or even siblings? How many people talk about wanting to see their loved ones again in Heaven? People who they normally would not characterize as soulmates. Again, the concept of soulmates may be a fantastical element (it is) but reality applies here as well (once again, there is always reality mixed in with fantasy). You can interpret Sam and Dean as being soulmates but it’s not something the show confirmed or spoke officially on. By having Dean meeting Sam in Heaven, that’s not a confirmation. It’s simply a brother waiting for the last person in his family to join him where he is, since Cas and Jack are somewhere there already, and so are John and Mary.

About Dean driving, listen, Dean chose to go do something he loved while he waited for Sam (again, the last part of his family that was living) and that was to drive in Baby. Had he enjoyed golf or watching horror movies or fishing (which let’s face it of course he loves those last two but not more than driving in Baby) or to go hang out with his parents, he would have done those things, too. Had the actors been available, I’m sure we would have gotten that Roadhouse scene they talked about with everyone in it. He would have spent time with his loved ones in the Roadhouse while Kansas performed and he drank beer and that’s how he would have waited for the last person in his family to join him. Had Sam already been there and let’s say Jack was human and not God!Jack, you can bet he would have waited for him, too, and it was never confirmed either that he and Jack are soulmates.

This is the problem (well, one of them anyway) with the 15x20 finale. While there were some beautiful brother moments for Sam and Dean, and it was a celebration of the brothers and the ending to their long journey (again, 1st season fans were meant to enjoy it more than any other group), that was not the appropriate ending narratively, not based on the story they told for those two characters the last two seasons. It completely undid all of their character development and regressed them back to their season 1 characters, while also regressing the story back to season 1 (and undoing all of the story development). And even more troublesome, some (such as yourself based on your ask) see it as confirmation of a somehow soulmate connection/relationship between the two brothers. While some might believe in the possible phenomenon of platonic soulmates or kindred spirits even (which siblings could be, for sure), that still is not what happened here. Dean loves Sam and Sam loves Dean, as brothers. They were each other’s family (outside of the found family they created over the years). Their bond is purely familial with an underlying friendship between the two that formed over 15 years. (in 1x01, they were brothers, not friends; by season 15, they were both)

Of course I’m not going to claim that this somehow validates bi!Dean, falsely as you claim or otherwise. Dean and Sam’s relationship has absolutely zero bearing on Dean’s sexual orientation and romantic orientation because it affects neither of these things. (same goes for Sam) Dean and Sam’s relationship was never romantic or sexual in nature.

The siren was a man. Was that whole dynamic Dean shared with the siren meant to illustrate the growing chasm between Sam and Dean in their relationship as brothers at that point in the story? Sure. But that was it. There was nothing romantic or sexual about it for either brother. The Siren even makes them fight at the end of the episode, after using Dean’s issues with Sam to be able to get close to Dean and entrap him. As a matter of fact, if you even look at the details Dean and the Siren discuss when “bonding”, the Siren actually sounds like more of a best friend that Dean is looking for (that is similar to himself) rather than Sam himself. The Siren appears to their victims in the form of what they desire. When the show began, the only outside connections that Dean looked to make were casual (except for Cassie) and to keep to the Winchester only group. Sam was the one who had expanded outside of this frame of mind, not only by going to school and making friends and dating Jessica, but also we see him continuing to attempt to make those connections like with Sarah, etc. How many times did someone pop up from Sam's school days/past? With Brady being that last link? As Bobby and the Harvelles came into the story, Dean’s sticking to the Winchester club (very) slowly started to change. Not only do we see Bobby’s relationship with the boys that slowly starts to be revealed as him being more of a father figure to them as well as a guide and they have history, but it’s slowly expanded outside of the Winchesters only club, but still kept within the hunters only group parameters. With each new season, the boys continue to do what they have to do but they also expand slowly outwards (again, all part of that breaking the toxic codependency while also making narrative sense for their journey together). And thus you get the found family as well as all of the fan favorite characters that came and went in the SPN universe over the years. Dean was always looking to connect to someone that this Siren exemplified. He may have had Lee when he was younger but they obviously had lost touch with one another for a long time before 15x07. Cas, Benny, and Charlie were the only friends he had (outside of Sam) that connected to him on a level that he had been looking for. My whole long point being that the Siren was not meant to represent anything about Sam except for how alone Dean was feeling, and I’m not even talking romantically or sexually, I mean just in general. He had just been to Hell, an experience that he couldn’t even talk about for a while to Sam. He was resurrected (which waking up in his coffin and digging out of his own grave is another traumatizing experience in itself), he has no idea what the real reason is why he was brought back other than what Cas and Co have told him, they just got angels and all that entails dropped into their laps and angels are not the self-proclaimed good guys everyone has been made to believe over time, and now Sam is keeping things from him and working with a demon (one that he specifically doesn’t care for). Sam, the one person he always expected to have his back no matter what because they’re family. But that is all the Siren was meant to represent. If it was meant to be indicative of what you’re suggesting, the Siren would have been Sam himself or more like Sam in personality or using details about Sam to entrap Dean if Dean really desired Sam romantically and/or sexually. Which as we know did not happen.

3) Destiel doesn't have moral high ground if we're talking about power imbalance. Cas is billions of years older to Dean. He's also so much more powerful to Dean. He's been abusive to Dean, he's beaten Dean bloody, he's manipulated Dean, he's encroached on Dean's personal space. I can write a 10000 word essay on why destiel is also problematic(or send you links from Destiel shippers who write excellent meta about the same). Sure, it's not incest so it doesn't have the "yikes" factor but when you want to enforce your ship on others (which is what destiel shippers essentially do when they argue it is canon), you'll have to acknowledge it's flaws. If wincest glorifies abuse then so does destiel. If there are wincest shippers who get off on abuse then there are destiel shippers who get off on Cas beating Dean. There are posts with thousands of notes if you wanna check. I acknowledge the unhealthy relationship dynamics between Sam and Dean(I hope you do for Dean and Cas).

Oh boy. Now we are onto the alleged imbalanced/abuse of power dynamics between Dean and Cas. How did we get onto the topic of destiel again? I honestly can’t even remember. Alright, let’s do it.

I personally think that yes, the relationship between Dean and Cas can be imbalanced at times, but it comes from both sides. Cas (thank you for not using two ‘s’ btw, I will never know what persuaded the show to do that lol) may be billions of years older than Dean but that does not mean that Dean does not sometimes hold the power in the relationship between the two. For example, Dean is able to hold Cas back physically when we know that should Cas choose to disregard him, Dean could either get hurt or at the very least, be easily brushed aside. This happens quite a few times in the show. Not to mention that Dean sometimes utilizes this bond he has with Cas to his advantage. And when I say utilize it, I’m not talking blatantly. He doesn’t want to lie to Cas or trap him in the ring of Holy fire in 6x20 but it’s a necessity so they can get to the bottom of what is going on with Cas and to figure out if he is working with Crowley, to find out why Cas is spying on them. For all of the points you made about Cas, please know that the same could be easily said about Dean. We saw Dean beat Cas up in 10x22 and while some like to claim it’s the Mark of Cain making him do it, it’s not. Dean’s theme plays when Cas asks him to stop and Dean comes back to beat him up more and grab the angel blade. Dean purposely doesn’t kill Cas and warns him to stay away from him (and also for Sam to stay away from him, the two people he feels he needs to protect from himself), Dean feels guilty over it which we see in 11x03 when he doesn’t allow Cas to heal him (after Cas beat him up while under a spell, because it truly wasn’t Cas while Dean was himself when he beat up Cas and Dean knows that), and we see that Cas allows him to do all of it. While Dean gives Cas a moment’s opportunity to take his hand off of his shoulder and to back off, Dean knows Cas will allow him to do whatever to him (because, again, Cas has allowed him to before and Dean is not ignorant to how important he is to Cas with the whole profound bond thing) and that enables him to go as far as he did in that fight. But to be fair to Dean, Cas also does take advantage similarly which we also have seen happen. A great example is Cas using his knowledge of where Dean hides the Colt in order to “borrow” it as well as Cas using his knowledge about the Winchesters (as well as Lisa and Ben’s unexpected kidnapping) to clear the way for him and his objective of getting the souls from Purgatory to defeat Raphael. They both did it, time and time again, but by the end of the series, I will say that I think they were evened out or more appropriately balanced out, as much as they could be, while still remaining a billion year old angel and a forty something human hunter. And what was the final catalyst in that balance? The 15x09 apology confession done on Dean’s knees, an earnest prayer when faced with the possibility that Cas might be stuck in Purgatory once again or possibly die again. From then on, if you watch their story closely, it’s fairly balanced between them up until Cas’ death in 15x18.

If you would like a great example of abusive/imbalanced power dynamics in a relationship outside of the SPN universe, may I suggest that you look at Jon and Daenerys in Game of Thrones, especially in episode 8x04 in the bedroom scene? As well as the fireplace scene in 8x05? Pure, solid examples of abusive power dynamics and imbalance in a relationship. Then compare destiel (and even wincest) to that.

Okay, allow me to state this distinction: destiel does not glorify abuse, wincest does. Here’s how: wincest itself does not glorify abuse as a standalone; the celebration of the codependency the boys have in response to what happened to them as children does. When people make posts and/or comments and tweets stating how much they love the codependency both brothers have and how it’s proof of their “love” for each other while being aware of how toxic and unhealthy it is and how it formed between them, that’s glorifying the abuse. You don’t see that with destiel (or at least I personally haven’t). You just stated yourself that you have read destiel meta with thousands of notes where the meta writers have discussed the imbalanced/abusive power dynamics between Dean and Cas and how that’s problematic. Thus, they are aware of the problem and not celebrating it. Do you see the difference? It’s not the ships themselves that glorify the abuse, it’s the shippers. And I don’t want to generalize obviously, there are some wincest shippers that don’t glorify the abuse and just want both boys to be happy. But trust me, there is definitely a difference when it comes to both ship groups when it comes to this topic. And the show/writers must agree (on the DeanCas front), because Cas’ romantic confession in 15x18 was prefaced by the words that Dean needed to hear and process about himself, to release himself from his anger, and ultimately contributed to leaving him in a healthier place by the end of the series. It also helped him to make the decision not to kill Chuck. “See, that’s not who I am.”

Which then brings me to my next point, destiel is canon. Say it loud and say it proud, folks. By what happened in 15x18, by Cas telling Dean “I love you” with romantic intention, that brings destiel as a subject matter into the universe and into canon. Dean didn’t have to respond or reciprocate. Even if he had responded and said “thanks dude, I’m flattered but I don’t feel the same” that doesn’t negate destiel as a principle becoming canon. Because Cas being in love with Dean is now something that has been brought in-universe to both characters’ attention as well as the audience’s. Therefore, it is canon.

A lot of people get hung up on the canon vs fanon discussion but they miss one of the most important and basic points of that topic. Canon means something that is an official part of the story. For example, John and Mary were set up by Heaven and fell in love after Cupid shot them with his arrows. That’s canon. John went on a revenge quest after Mary was killed by the YED and he raised both of their sons to be hunters. That’s canon. Dean loves his car. That’s canon. Jody lost her husband and child. Donna’s ex-husband Doug treated her horribly. Bobby possessed a maid from a hotel in order to try to exact vengeance on Dick Roman. Cas likes to visit the Heaven of a man who relives a calm Tuesday afternoon over and over again. Jack copies Dean’s movements to try to be like him in the beginning of season 13. Werewolves can be killed by silver. Blood sigils can banish angels. All of this is canon. So if Cas is telling Dean he loves him romantically, even if Dean himself didn’t hear it or wasn’t conscious when Cas said it, it is still canon. What it is not because the show chose to remain ambiguous on this topic after Cas’ confession and it wasn’t confirmed one way or the other, is the canon romantic relationship between Dean and Cas. They didn’t go on a date, Dean didn’t respond, they didn’t buy a house together or kiss on a bench in a park, etc. The mutual romantic relationship is not canon.

For example, we see Kaia return from The Bad Place and she is ready to go with Jody back to her home. She asks if Claire will be there which Jody confirms, but ultimately we never see Kaia or Claire say “I love you” to each other or go on a date or do anything romantic, but a lot of people accept that relationship as canon. Why? Because of what Jody says before Kaia appears, about her being Claire’s first love and how much Claire is still affected by losing Kaia. And it’s obvious it’s requited because of Kaia then later asking if Claire will be at Jody’s. That is a canon relationship because both sides were shown, though Jody was used in proxy of Claire speaking for herself.

Another example outside of the SPN universe is (SPOILER ALERT) Ryan and Sophie in Batwoman. This is now a confirmed canon relationship. But before it launched into the actual romance itself, there were flirtations, romantic tension, and all that entails. Wildmoore (as they are called) was already canon on principle because of Luke asking Ryan if she was flirting with Sophie on a mission, and then of course everything that happened after that. The relationship itself just hadn’t become canon yet (until it did). Another relationship that exemplifies canon vs fanon is the one between Sophie and Alice or aka Sophice. A lot of people noticed the chemistry between the two when they started to interact more once Ryan appeared on the scene, but this is a fanon relationship. Nothing wrong with it at all (I like the idea myself tbh though I am Wildmoore all the way) but the idea of that pairing has not been introduced into the story as an actual idea. There is no romantic tension, no flirtation, etc. You never had Mary commenting on how Sophie was flirting with Alice or Sophie and Alice acting like fake girlfriends in a situation while checking each other out and commenting on each other’s appearance. It’s currently a fanon relationship. Luke and Mary, sure, there’s been a lot of hints but it hasn’t officially been brought into the universe romantically as of yet. It looks like they may go that way, but as of right now, it’s not canon, in principle or in relationship. There is a distinct difference in canon vs fanon, and how canon actually happens.

My whole long point is that once something is brought to the characters’ attention in the story and thus the audience’s, it is canon. Because it’s an official part of the story. It could be anything from an idea of a romantic pairing between two other characters to how a character felt in a scene (like Ryan did with Jada and Marquis) to what a character prefers to do on a Friday night even (like so and so like to go bowling at this particular alley every Friday at 7pm sharp). No matter how big or small the detail, if it becomes part of the official story (on screen or in a book), it’s canon.

Listen, I applaud you for reading destiel meta when it’s obvious that you don’t care for the ship. I really do. And 99% of the time, I would be like you, interested to see all sides to a situation (or a ship) and take whatever resonates or that I find interesting while leaving the rest. However, when it comes to wincest in particular, I cannot do that. It’s not because of any hatred or disdain I have for the pairing or its shippers/meta writers. It’s because the idea makes me extremely uncomfortable. And it makes me extremely uncomfortable because Dean is essentially Sam’s parent, up until they are able to place proper boundaries on their relationship and restore it back to a brotherly one by the end of the series. Parent/child incest is horrifying and absolutely disgusting, even if only fictional, I don’t care who that statement offends. You want to talk about abusive power dynamics and imbalance in relationships, there you go. Going by what you said above, am I saying that fictional parent/child shippers should be in jail? If the children are underage, then yeah. Because that’s indicative of a whole other problem and even more disgusting while also being incredibly worrisome. If the children are of age, no. But either way, I want nothing to do with that topic and I don’t care who is offended by that or who thinks of me as being judgmental or critical about it. It 👏 is 👏 disturbing. And in no way will my mind ever change on that.

So, essentially, wincest makes me extremely uncomfortable because it is very close to that line. Had Dean not been Sam’s parent at all (and if it also hadn’t been a byproduct of abuse both boys suffered), I probably wouldn’t even bat an eyelash. I wouldn’t say I would ship it, obviously not based on the topic of incest and universe rules that we discussed, but it would just go into the pool of several other ships that I don’t ship but have a very ship-and-let-ship attitude about, like Chestervelle or Megstiel or Dean/Lisa or John/Mary, etc.

But unlike you, I blame the show for glorifying abuse and not the shippers. The show literally put Sam and Dean together for eternity, had Dean wait for Sam like he had no other purpose even after his death. But that's what the show chose to do so there's nothing I can do. What I won't do is to police other ppl for shipping things that make me uncomfortable. As long as they don't force me to believe their version (you know like hellers do) I don't care.

Well, I already discussed above how the shippers are actually the ones who do glorify the abuse so I won’t repeat myself. However, I’d like to address the points you made here. How is Sam and Dean being together for eternity 1) confirming them as a romantic pairing/soulmates and 2) glorifying the abuse? Once again, wouldn’t you want to be with your family for eternity once you have passed on? Or would you prefer to be alone and never see them again? I truly don’t understand how if a family member waits for you in the afterlife that this is then seen as they can’t move on without you or indicates that their soul is tied to yours or that they are somehow in love with you. Look at the series finale of The Vampire Diaries, do you also believe that Damon and Stefan are soulmates and that Stefan couldn’t move forward without Damon being there? That Elena’s family couldn’t either? Like…? Why wouldn’t you want to be with your family and your loved ones for eternity if given the option? The show didn’t have Dean waiting for Sam like he had no other purpose, not the way you’re implying. Dean was doing something he loved (driving in Baby) until Sam got there, because everyone else in his family both OG and TFW 2.0 was already in Heaven with him. Not to mention, it goes hand in hand with the point I made above about how important Sam is to Dean, because not only is he his little brother and his friend, but he also still feels responsible for him and cares for him. Of course he was going to wait for Sam until the latter got there. Even if he and Sam weren’t that close, let’s say. Sam is a part of both his family of origin and the family he chose/built for himself. Nothing about that screams romantic or soulmates, I’m sorry. That’s just a basic idea of everyone being together, which is exactly what Bobby says to Dean in 15x20 when talking about how Jack and Cas had changed up Heaven before he got there. “The way it should have always been.” That’s all it was. So in essence, that’s not the show glorifying the abuse or even wincest in general.

Anon, I have to be honest. It seems like you have a lot of gripes with individual groups in this fandom and that’s totally fine. But I kind of feel that you’re coming to me with all of said gripes, not for the sake of discourse, but to make me have to answer to them all. Whether that be destiel, Cockles, Jensen critics, anti-wincesters, or anti-J2ers, SPN itself, etc. And ultimately, I’m not responsible for any group or anything to do with each of them. I am only responsible for how I choose to conduct myself on this social media platform we’re on. And I can tell you 100% that I am not a heller in the derogatory sense that you are implicating me (and essentially my followers) to be. Do I ship destiel? Absolutely. Do I write meta about them and showcase how the show was going there even before 15x18 and celebrate the fact that destiel is indeed canon? Yes. In no way do I travel around this site trying to enforce my beliefs on others. The most I’ve done is respond to some of the bullying and harassment I’ve seen others be subject to over the last 2 years (specifically since 15x18 aired) by commenters/posters where they very much are shoving their opinions and beliefs down their throats while also invalidating not only others’ thoughts and feelings they don’t agree with but also invalidating their identities and desire for representation and devaluing them as human beings in general.

You say you don’t care but do you realize that you are technically doing what you said you don’t want people to do to you? I’ve been very open on this blog about what I ship and what I don’t, what I am in favor of and what I’m an anti of. I’ve even made anti-wincest posts as a matter of fact. I tag appropriately and I reblog content along those lines. While I understand and appreciate that you are just sharing your thoughts and we are having a civil discourse, I do wonder why you feel the need to keep trying to impress upon me through these 2 asks (and particularly this one) that essentially, destiel is bad and wincest is good. I’m glad if you felt my ask box was a safe space where you could share these opinions, I think that’s important, but you are stating them in such a way that I do feel like you are trying to police my beliefs and what I choose to ship, etc. I have no idea who you are (obviously you’re on anon) so I’m not sending you any asks obviously but you do not see me going to pro-wincest blogs to state my beliefs in a similar manner to how you are stating things here. Just some food for thought.

5)I don't ship J2. I find RPF a slippery slope. It can be ok if ppl keep boundaries but they don't. Fans today are very entitled and have no shame about blasting their personal jerk off fantasies in actors face and I find that culture distasteful. Hence you won't see me defending J2 shippers.

Initially Jensen wasn't comfortable with wincest or J2 or destiel or cockles. He's learnt to tolerate them. He had to. He wasn't comfortable with the poses destiel shippers asked in photo ops. He said no plenty of times and eventually he stopped saying no. He admitted that in last panel, you can check the video. The fans called him homophobic when he said his character was straight, when he said he didn't play Dean as bi, when he said destiel doesn't exist. I find it really sad how he's been treated and how his boundaries have been disrespected and eroded over the years. But it's what it is.

I actually agree with you here, Anon. I don’t ship J2, Cockles, Jenneel, Jarevieve, Kimilia, Bennifer, or any other RPF pairing, actually romantically involved or not. It’s just not my cup of tea. I don’t judge others who do, the ones who like you said, maintain appropriate boundaries. The rest of it? I’m not a fan. Those who are super pushy and disrespectful about it, completely disregarding the fact that these are human beings who have personal lives along with marriages/relationships and/or families? That is not only distasteful but also very disturbing. And that is where the point I made about Jensen and Co needing to assert boundaries comes in. Should the fans automatically respect them? Absolutely. But those guys also need to enforce them. For example, I now have better context on what you mentioned about the supposed Cockles kiss request. I know now that Misha and Jensen talked about them giving up and giving in to fan requests at photo ops, in separate panels. This is exactly what I was talking about in your previous ask. Jensen and Misha should have kept saying no and maintaining that boundary. But they didn’t and chose to indulge (or at the very least, keep from declining) some of the more specific requests brought to them that might have made them uncomfortable at some point. That’s not victim blaming; that’s stating that the person who has the power in the situation (ultimately J & M) should have enforced the boundary if they didn’t want to ever acquiesce to a certain type of photo op request/have a certain type of fan interaction. While people shouldn’t ask them to kiss, for example, they also shouldn’t give in and kiss if it makes them uncomfortable. They shouldn’t give in or be worn down is my point.

Jensen is not in any way homophobic that I’ve personally seen. To be fair, I don’t know the man, only the public persona he presents (and even then our knowledge is limited), but based on what I’ve seen and read from the guy himself, I don’t see that. Not only has he been involved with an outreach program for the LGBTQIA community but he also has a family member that is a member of that community that he appears to be close with. Not to mention that there have been reports (from either people who knew him back then or himself) that he defended a classmate back in school who was gay, from what I'm not exactly sure but I assume it was bullying. The man is constantly evolving and growing/learning (like any other human being) and he has a come long way from his younger days and a time period where the idea of someone being gay was okay but was still treated as “the other” and something you didn’t want to talk about or focus on too much. It took years for society to start evolving past this (and we obviously still have a long way to go) and media helped with that in the forms of films like Brokeback Mountain and television shows such as The L Word and Queer As Folk as well as same sex marriage finally being legalized countrywide in the US. Gay, Lesbian, and LGBTQIA characters were always kept on the outskirts of the main story in any film/televsion show/book (if they were there at all), but now they were (and are) being moved to the forefront (as they should be) as the mains. Now, today, we have not only a Black Batwoman but also a Black Lesbian Batwoman. We have Henrietta Wilson in 9-1-1 who is a Black Lesbian firefighter. That was all unheard of even five years ago. We also have Clarke Griffin in the 100 who is a Bisexual Female main character. We have Love, Simon. We have TK and Carlos in 9-1-1:Lonestar or aka Tarlos as a main couple of the show. We even have Crowley in SPN who was confirmed (by the story events) to be Pansexual. And we’re continuing to get more and more representation as each day passes, not just for LGBTQIA but also the Transgender community as well as for POC and Women. Jensen, Jared, and all the rest have also evolved as has everyone else that works in the industry with how they approach certain topics and how they address things publicly. I don’t pretend to speculate or know what Jensen and Jared think in their heads obviously but it appears that as individuals they have also grown with the times.

The fans who do call Jensen homophobic are obviously not real fans. They don’t listen to what the guy says or what his actions speak louder than any words of his could. They’re simply saying that because based on the context you’re giving here in your examples, he didn’t say something they wanted to hear. Saying destiel isn’t real isn’t homophobic, it’s invalidating. There’s a difference. Of course people were going to be upset when he said that (I wasn’t around then myself) because it invalidates their reading/interpretation of events going on in the show. Which you yourself stated above that people have the right to, which let’s face it, is just basic common sense and all fans/viewers should understand that not everyone will see things in the show the same way. But it also probably upset some because by those words, Jensen just unintentionally gave ammunition to certain hateful sections of this fandom that do jump on destiel posts and hate on said poster, that keep insisting Dean is straight and only likes women, and that there’s something wrong with those people (yep, I’ve seen a TON of this the last two years on here myself, especially after what Jared said at Denver Con 2021). And speaking as someone who is LGBTQIA, that shit is tiring to say the least. It’s exhausting, it’s hurtful, and it’s toxic. So naturally people were going to be upset when he said that. I think he’s learned from it (and possibly other examples), though, and that is why he is so careful to keep saying now that people can interpret the DeanCas relationship and Cas’ “I love you” how they want to. (even though Misha did say it was intended to be romantic and Berens wrote it with that intention)

Here’s what I think when Jensen says he didn’t play Dean as bi:

1) That’s a genuine answer because he is the actor who read the scripts, got noted by directors, and most likely discussed his character’s progression with not only the writers but also Kripke at one time or another. Not to mention, he has lived inside that character’s skin for 15 years and has gotten to know him pretty well. So if he didn’t assimilate a possibly different romantic or sexual orientation into his performance, he didn’t. It doesn’t take away from the edits or scripts that the show had, but he as a performer, did not come from that place in his performance. That’s fine. It’s his personal read on the character and his interpretation, and obviously this carries weight because once again, he had inside knowledge of the character and the story, being that he played Dean himself.

2) This does not take away from anyone’s interpretation of Dean being bi. Once again, the show chose to air certain takes of scenes/edited shots and include lines of dialogue that very much implicate that there is a strong possibility that Dean has a slight interest in various male characters. It may be unintentional most of the time but there is absolutely queer coding in there, and at the very least it produces the possibility of had destiel become a canon relationship in the show (with non-binary Cas obviously not being really male, only in a male presenting body) or Dean had been with another male character for either a sexual encounter, a flirtation, or a date, that it would be possible and not completely out of left field. If you don’t believe there is queer coding in how Dean was written, allow me to give you two examples. A) Do we ever question Sam’s supposed romantic or sexual orientations? Are we ever surprised when Sam gets involved with a woman? Whether that be Eileen or Amelia or that diner waitress or even Blurry Wife? Was him being romantically and sexually attracted to women ever doubted? No. And why? Because Sam wasn’t written with queer coding. B) Kripke has talked about in the past how Dean was not only to be the Hans Solo of this universe but that he also gleaned slightly from On the Road by Jack Kerouac. Dean Moriarty is based on Neal Cassady who not only was sexually promiscous but also reportedly had an on again/off again sexual relationship with Allen Ginsberg for years. It’s not much of a stretch, especially with the things/hints that the show chose to include in their final edits and air, for some to interpret Dean as bisexual or at the very least biromantic. Subtext is very much a thing (look at Buffy and Faith from Buffy the Vampire Slayer for example, look at Brooke and Rachel in One Tree Hill, particularly the scene where they join the Clean Teen club aka subtext) and it is peppered throughout the show, particularly when it comes to Dean and Cas, especially in season 8 and beyond.

3) Even though I stated above that Jensen has grown, there is one actor who I would love to quote, as his attitude towards it all is the right one and should be the model that all actors should follow moving forward. That actor is Oliver Stark from 9-1-1. He himself replied to a comment left on one of his Instagram posts, where the commenter was telling people to stop forcing a gay ship (i.e. Buddie) onto the actors and to quit making them uncomfortable. And here was his response:

Pure perfection. And you know why? Because this is exactly how an actor should look at a character that they’re playing. The romantic and sexual orientations may be key components to the character just as much as say what happened to them in childhood, what their relationship with their parents is like, did they get their heart broken in high school or college, did they ever try drugs, did they ever go to jail, what kind of job do they have, how do they respond when in a situation, etc., but that’s all they are. They essentially make up the character. It’s not something to be feared or that would make someone uncomfortable or the other. That narrative of LGBTQIA being the other needs to stop. Love is love and that’s it. Any actor worth their salt knows this to be true and doesn’t let it hinder their performances or prevent them from taking a role (unless they are truly uncomfortable and decline it instead but if they take it, then they should not be surprised and uncomfortable should something develop in the character or within the story line, especially if they discuss it with the writers/showrunners). Each different character they portray that is human is just that: human. And last I checked, we have 7.9 billion different versions of those running around the planet.

As for Jensen’s own discomfort, I am willing to bet (though tbf like I said above I’m not inside the man’s head) this had more to do with how he sees the character and plays him, his own interpretation of the material he was presented with when filming the show, based on the discussions he had with Kripke, Singer, and the writers/showrunners. I don’t think he was uncomfortable with the idea of Dean being bi or being in love with Cas or any other male character for the sake of being uncomfortable about the character’s purported sexuality or romantic orientation. He played a bisexual character in Blonde after all, and had no issues with it. I believe he even stated at some point when asked by a fan should they choose to make Eric Brady gay in the show, that he would be okay with it. (tbf, I’ve never seen the show so I have no idea what the context of this fan ask was) And like I said above, he’s not homophobic. I think he was initially uncomfortable when people suggested Dean might be bi and that he might be in love with Cas because that’s not how he was trying to play the character. I think it all comes down to his performance for him, as it does for any natural born story teller. But that’s just my opinion. I obviously don’t know him personally and can’t 100% speak for him on that.

As for the nude fanart and his boundaries, it all goes back to what I’ve been saying all along. He needs to assert his boundaries and people need to stop bringing that stuff to him. It’s my understanding that these guys have handlers at cons that they do and from what I’ve read (I’ve never gone myself nor will I to be quite honest), everything they sign in autos needs to go through the handler first before being passed to them. If Jensen truly didn’t want to see a Dean dick pic for example or Dean and Cas getting it on in a painting, then he could refuse to sign or better yet, he could tell the handler 'if you see this, tell them thanks but no thanks'. Honestly, I have no idea if he ever signed anything that was nude for Dean or destiel or wincest related. But again, he has the power to do that, to say no. And do I think fans should be bringing these things to him or to Jared or to Misha to sign or to show them? No, I don’t. Once again, I’ll use the example of reverse roles. If these guys were bringing this kind of art to actresses to have them sign, that’s not appropriate. Say if male fans brought a painting that was NSFW and/or sexual for WildMoore to Javicia or Meagan to sign, that’s not appropriate. NSFW artwork should remain in the fandom imho. However, if the painting is a SFW kiss between two individuals or them holding hands or hugging or laying down together or on a date, I don’t see the harm. At that point, it becomes again about Jensen’s (and these guys’) boundaries and what he feels comfortable signing.

And while I agree with you about how sad it is how Jensen has been treated over the years, once again, it’s up to him on what he allows in a fan interaction. He can’t control what people tweet or say about him online or in videos, but he does have the power to curate his interactions with fans at cons, for photo ops or autos or even how he chooses to answer a question in a panel (or not answer if he doesn’t want to answer). That also goes for Jared, Misha, the rest of the SPN cast, and any other celebrity/performer. Boundaries, I will keep saying it until the end of the time. And anyone who doesn’t respect those boundaries once they’re asserted and keep being asserted doesn’t belong in the convention centers. That’s the bottom line. It's a basic truth.

What you need to understand is this. J2 aren't anti wincest or destiel.

I do understand that and while I don’t think it was your intention to come across this way, that statement is slightly condescending. But yes, I agree. Actors are not their characters. I don’t know how many times I’ve said this in the past two years as have others on this site, the ones who have a clear distinction between fantasy and reality. For example, Jensen is a bit of a sore topic for me right now (not the man himself but what I mentioned above), but I have no aversion to Dean content whatsoever. Why? Because I can compartmentalize and I know what’s real vs what’s not. So please don’t assume that I or anyone else you interact with here that may be a destiel blog or even a cockles or J2 one don’t also have this understanding.

As in, they don't care if you ship either. J2 joke about wincest. Send wincest fanfiction/art to each other. Prank Alex. They don't even care if you ship J2 or cockles. They might have in early years, but like I said, they had to get used to it. But they care when you blast your ship in their face and ask them to validate it. They didn't play wincest or destiel. Jensen didn't play a bi character. Didn't play Dean as in love with Cas or Sam.

Yes, and they also don’t care if you ship destiel. Despite what Jensen may have said in the past, he also has made jokes with Jared and Misha about it. As a matter of fact, after 15x18 aired, Jensen himself stated that he and Misha were exchanging fan reactions to the confession scene (which if you think about it, it's very interesting because if Cas’ confession wasn’t romantic, then why were they so interested in the reaction to the confession itself? Makes you think, doesn’t it? Because if it was just about Cas' death/ending, Misha may have shared those with Jensen but Jensen didn't need to remark on it publicly. Hmm 🤔). Jensen did watch a few of those reactions. He stated as much after that episode aired.

I get what you’re saying about fans asking the guys to validate their ships but I do have to ask, do you think wincest shippers haven’t done the same? (does anyone remember when this person Kelios supposedly disagreed with Jensen on how he and Jared performed a Sam and Dean hug? I think it was at a Jibcon?) I’m not saying it’s appropriate. I do think some of them are honestly looking for validation for their reading of the show because it matters to them and they want to know they are on the right track or to have hope for either ship to come down the line. I also think some of them (namely destiel shippers and bi Dean fans) are looking for validation in representation which is even more important to them. Especially in a show that exuded toxic masculinity to a tee in earlier years and it was lacking in main LGBTQIA representation. Where the show in earlier years treated the idea of being gay as a punch line to a joke every single time it came up.

It's exactly why Jared talked about platonic love in Denver con. They are graciously allowing you your interpretation but asking you to not impose your views on them. Think about that.

Okay, number 1) It’s not gracious to allow fans to interpret the story and/or characters as they do. No one can tell you how to interpret something. Which is why wincest still goes strong even though the show has never confirmed them as canon, in principle or in relationship, but people refuse to hear the whole “They do know we’re brothers, right? Oh come on, that’s just sick” line in 4x18 that Dean said as well as Dean’s line in 10x05 “You know they’re brothers, right? Why don’t you take a substep back there, ladies?” along with Dean telling “Dean” and “Sam” to stand as close as they want but then also saying “I want you to put as much sub into that text” to “Cas” while she nods in response. They refuse to acknowledge that while the actors and show may not have a problem with people shipping the brothers together, it’s not somewhere they ever intended to go in that universe. The relationship was purely familial/brothers. Hence why Dean and Sam are not confessing romantic ILY’s to each other ever in the series, even in the end. Their ILY's are familial only. "I love you, my baby brother." It's right there. But regardless, people still see what they see and interpret how they interpret. Like Jensen said, he likened it to an analogy of two people looking at a painting. Person A may see something different than Person B and he is not going to be the person to tell either of them what they saw or invalidate their interpretations. So to use the word gracious for them allowing to happen what has been happening with art for decades, in all different forms, is incorrect. People will see and interpret no matter what the actors say, no matter what the show does or says, and no matter what some of the fandom says, even when presented with solid evidence that would hold up in a court trial with judge included and Jensen and Co testifying to prove to them that hey, this is what the show was trying to get across to the viewers on this particular subject/part of the show. And when people are asking for validation, that does not equate to them imposing their views on the actors. Imposing their views would be to cancel Jensen for example for saying destiel isn’t real. That’s imposing your views. Asking for validation is very different.

Number 2) Do not even get me started on what Jared said at Denver Con last year, please. That was not a validation for platonic love. That was homophobic and acephobic rhetoric that was actually harmful to the LGBTQIA community. Listen to those words again, pick them apart if you need to, break it down but for the love of the planet, that is NOT validation in how you or any wincest shipper/Jared stan thinks it is. That speech even superseded the topics of destiel, wincest, and even SPN. I’ve already spoken at length on this topic and just how harmful it was and also from a destiel perspective. I’m not diving back into it again. It took me quite a while to put that out of my mind and come back to my love of SPN on this site, and it also made me anti Jared. Not anti in the sense of I hate the guy or keep digging at him repeatedly, I don’t. I just don’t support him and really don’t care to see content of him come across my dash at all if it can be helped. I wish him well and hope he learns, but I’m out when it comes to him. You disagree? That’s totes fine but I won’t be discussing it further here, I’ve already said what I needed to say on this topic.

Personally I'd be much less gracious in their shoes. If people disregarded my words about a character I played for 15 years and said I'm homophobic/in-closet if i dare to say my character is straight? I'd loss my cool. Like imagine the disrespect. And yes, it's disrespectful coz it invalidates an actor's portrayal of his character. It's one thing if bi dean or destiel was explicitly planned or written, which it wasn't. Bi dean was never written or acted, and destiel wasn't written or planned for 14 seasons. There was one ambiguous confession in last season which means J2 (or anyone else) have all the right to see it as platonic.

While you are correct that each individual viewer has the right to interpret the 15x18 confession scene how they interpret it, one thing that is not up for interpretation was the intent with which the scene was written and performed. You can still certainly see it as platonic if that’s what makes you feel better when it comes to this topic, but you can’t debate what has been said by the actor of the scene on not only how he tailored his performance to the written intention of the scene but also the discussion he had with the writer of the episode. (again, if not romantic, why the line 'Dean can't reciprocate' in the script? If it was just platonic or brotherly?) Jensen had to give his approval on it in order for the scene to even make it to production. (and again, if the confession wasn’t romantic, why did Jensen need to approve it? To use your words “think about that”) So if Misha says he acted that scene with romantic intention, then that’s it. Because you can’t make the argument about Jensen not acting Dean with bi intent or romantic intent when it comes to Cas and we should respect that, but then dismiss what Misha is saying about the 15x18 scene being intentionally romantic and that's how he acted it out. You just can’t. It’s one or the other. You can’t have both. Either we take what Jensen says at face value about Dean and what Misha says about Cas, or we don’t for both. That’s it.

And just a bit of background for you, the CW did do market research for destiel in 2016. They only decided to go through (halfway) with it in the final season. Feel free to look for those receipts on this site. They would have never done market research for that particular subject if there wasn’t a simple thought or discussion about it going on behind the scenes, just saying.

I brought up cockles shippers coz they're currently everywhere. J2 ship is almost dead. Cockles isn't. Cockles shippers are also notorious for stalking and harassing Jensen and even Misha. For getting their medical records, utility bills. Look up occamshipper person. They stalk Jensen's location. There are plenty more who do the same. These shippers have sent Jared death threats. Creation found these threats credible and has recently increased his security because of them. They have tried to cancel Walker. They have spread baseless rumours about Jared(like he's a sexual harasser) and these posts have hundreds of thousands of notes.

It’s interesting that you brought up occamshipper. I did not know who this person was until recently. Regardless of whether they ship Cockles or J2 or aren’t shippers at all, stalking, harassment, threats, and doxxing are NEVER okay. Obviously. I think that goes without being said really. I’m glad Jared has increased security. All of these guys should be safe at these conventions. Unfortunately, there are some people out there that are disturbed and resort to disgusting tactics like death threats or threats of violence upon a person. It is good that CE is taking it seriously and is stepping up security.

Once again, I don’t know anything about alleged sexual harassment claims made against Jared nor do I know anything about Walker or its run. I refused to watch Walker after the finale aired and have kept true to that. The only thing I’ve heard about Walker recently on this site is that Lindsey Morgan left the show. That’s it.

I don’t really know anything about the J2 ship fandom nor do I really care. That isn’t the circle I travel in so to speak. Same goes for Cockles. I enjoy Jensen and Misha’s friendship and their interactions and even some jokes on here (like ‘Jensen, do you know your husband is traveling around the country eating food on camera?’ which are innocent and harmless when they’re not sent to the actors or disrespectful to Danneel & their family or malicious in intent; same goes for Jared and Jensen and their panels/interviews) but that’s where it ends for me.

Once again, Anon, I feel that you are holding me personally responsible for the Cockles fandom as well as destiel, that you're holding my feet to the fire, and I will tell you again that not only is it completely unfair to me, but you need to bring these gripes to the appropriate groups you have issues with. Like I said above, I don’t mind civil discourse and I don’t mind my ask box being a safe space for those who just want to have said respectful discussions or to vent, but how on earth could I possibly answer for all of the Cockles fandom when I’m not even in that section of fandom myself? I feel that you are just venting your frustration and that’s fine, but continuing this particular part of the conversation I don’t feel would be productive for either of us. Nothing I say for or against these shippers and that fandom could possibly shed any more light on the subject or be helpful to anyone including yourself. So this will be the last time I touch upon the Cockles topic.

Jared, who has mhi, who wanted to quit in S10 but only stayed coz he didn't want the crew to loss jobs, who literally cried himself to sleep everyday coz he couldn't handle the pressure. This man who donates millions to LGBT charities and who suffered so much during supernatural, they bully and harass him because of a rpf ship. They send him death threats. When shipping has real life impacts like this, it needs to be called out. You talked about a fictional ship(wincest) hurting real life people and here I have given you the real hurt caused by cockles shippers/hellers.

Once more, let me reiterate that I have no idea what you are referring to. I have no idea what Jared endured during the filming of SPN in earlier seasons. Let me remind you, I only dove into the fandom as recently as 2020, which obviously season 10 and anything occurring around that time was way before that. I only know of Jared’s initiative/campaign of AFK that he started. That’s it. While I didn’t mind Jared and I liked Sam as I watched SPN over the years, I wasn’t a fan of him so to speak and so I didn’t follow his career at all. I was a fan of Jensen and did follow his career but I didn’t know anything about his personal life or who he was as a person or anything pertaining to that until I got involved in the fandom. Before that, I had no idea who he was married to, how many kids he had, how he spoke at cons (I hadn’t watched a single Jibcon video for example), that he could sing, that he had a brewery in Austin, etc. So, if I didn’t know anything about Jensen like that before 2020, imagine how little I knew about Jared and Misha.

And also let me remind you that while you speak of what Jared has suffered (who shouldn’t be forced to endure or suffer any of this horrible treatment he got that you’re referring to), do you really think that Jensen and Misha have not received the same type of treatment from disturbed groups of fans at one point in time or another? Despite the good things they have done in the name of charity? Despite their positive interactions with their fans? I’m not saying any of it’s right, of course it’s not, but they all have gone through it. Should they have had to? No, ofc not. But they have all been through it. If you ask me, Jared seems to be doing better now and appears to be happy. (I’ve only seen him in con photos/videos with Jensen) So despite the increased security threat he may currently be under at cons, he is still living his best life and doing well and isn’t that all we could want for the guy? Same goes for Jensen and Misha. In no way am I saying any of this treatment or behavior is okay, I just want to clarify. I’m just saying the three of them will be okay and hopefully the people who are doing such abhorrent behaviors are caught and then be subject to the consequences of said behaviors.

Okay, I only said that wincest is harmful to people because it glorifies abuse (which we determined up above that it’s more the shippers that do that, not the ship itself). I think you’re either misreading/misunderstanding or misconstruing my words. I even gave you specific points in that previous ask that prove what I said. As an abuse survivor myself, I absolutely can recognize and point out how abuse being glorified is harmful. To dismiss the fact of abuse being glorified as harmful is not just dismissive but also deeply concerning. I’m not saying you’re wrong with what you’ve said about the extreme behaviors of a select few when it comes to Jared or Jensen or Misha, but it doesn’t negate the point that a ship, fictional or otherwise, having abuse glorified within it is harmful. To imply that the harm this does is not “real” because it’s a fictional ship vs RPF ships is absolutely hurtful itself and very cold and apathetic. Please keep that in mind when going forward and interacting with others on this site. You never know who is an abuse survivor and who is not (unless they specifically tell you or speak on their experience), and you never know what someone has been through. So please, if nothing else, please hear what I’m saying to you here.

I don't have the energy to respond to your last paragraphs but I just wanna say that Jensen has repeatedly enforced boundaries, has expressed discomfort about aggressive RPF shipping, about being asked to make poses with Misha. But cockles shippers have never respected his boundaries. They have asked him to sign sexual pictures etc. Just this con a Jared hater got a J2M op and asked Jensen to dip Misha, which Jensen refused. They might as well ask him to kiss Misha for photo ops in next con. Sadly it seems like his boundaries have been worn down. In his own words, he's given up. And I get him, it's exhausting. You eventually learn to do shocking, uncomfortable things coz saying no becomes exhausting after a 100 requests. That too when you are a man and women are asking you. Or perhaps he doesn't want to be called homophobic. God knows cockles (or destiel) shippers have done that multiple times, even had articles published on news sites.

I feel like you're low key victim blaming Jensen for not being firm with his boundaries even if that's not your intention. I do have counter arguments to those points and about Misha's baiting but I don't have time now. I might send a separate ask later if i find the energy but for now I'll leave you with this one.

Have a nice day.

You say that you don’t have the energy to respond to my last paragraphs on the previous ask but you keep expending energy to keep making the same point over and over again. I’ve already said what I’m going to say about Jensen and his boundaries up above and due to the energy I’ve expended in replying to your ask here as well as the harassment I received from AA’s for having the audacity to criticize two things Jensen said in his podcast interview with MR, I’m not going to keep repeating myself and I’m also not going to continue to touch upon the topic. As I said above, if you feel that’s victim blaming, that’s how you choose to take it/interpret it. I know for a fact that it isn’t and many experts in different fields would agree. Because it’s basic common sense. We as a society obviously have a longer way to go in our understanding of boundaries and all they entail, especially when it comes to enforcing them and teaching other people how we want to be treated. That’s not victim blaming, Anon, but like I said, your choice on how you interpret it.

Personally, Anon, while I feel that you made a lot of good points here, it’s obvious to me that you’re very frustrated on some of these topics you mentioned. For example, you apparently have a lot of anger towards the Cockles fandom/shippers and even seem to have a distaste for destiel. That’s all fine and good, it’s your prerogative, but I myself don’t have anger or frustration towards either group. I am a self-professed destiel shipper; I’ve never pretended to be anything else. I don’t ship Cockles and while I may not care for some of the content clogging the Jensen tag recently (tho tbf I stopped looking at his tag after all of the AA harassment I received a couple of weeks ago), I don’t have any anger or ill will towards the group itself. As in any fandom, in any section of it, there are good and bad apples. And just like in any other group, the bad apples tend to ruin it for everyone else and/or go to the extreme. Cockles, J2 - both have similar good and bad experiences. While I may not agree with the bad’s actions in either group, I don’t hate them or feel anger towards them or wish them ill in any way. I do hope they stop exhibiting any bad or extreme behaviors, especially if they make the actors uncomfortable, but I can’t control them or what they do or say or think. If you want to speak up to them on Jared’s or Jensen’s or Misha’s behalf, by all means, please do so. I myself, however, am not getting involved. If I was in charge of Jared’s or Jensen’s security or married to either one of them or they were my brother or good friend, then obviously that would be a different story. But I’m not and they are not. Alas, I am not stepping up to the plate to take on the world for them, sorry. I doubt they would want me to anyway, even if they were aware of my existence and/or just how much the fandom fights on here. If you want to take up that mantle and defend them against the Big Bads in the Cockles fandom and the SPN fandom in general, go right ahead. Bring all of your valid points to their doorsteps and duke it out with them. I’ll be here in my little corner of the Tumblrverse rooting for you.

Anon, if you ship wincest, then more power to you. I personally am anti wincest and I ship destiel, so I’m not sure how much more of a continued discourse between us would be productive here on this topic. We can agree to disagree because obviously, neither of us are going to change our minds.

I wish you well, too, Anon. I hope you are enjoying your weekend. Btw, I did get your other ask that you asked me not to post and I just want to say I hope you’re feeling better now and that you’re no longer sick. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and perspective, even though we disagreed on a lot. But thank you all the same.

I hope you have a nice rest of your evening. ✌️

[nancylou444]

I tried to be nice

Replies to this post:

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Became this:

THEM:  hi! thanks for the answers I really appreciate the discussion. normally if someone ships something I don’t like or something like that, I’ll just leave them alone but.. just to be clear I completely respect all of your opinions, even agree with some of them, even if we might disagree on the incest and Castiel haha. So I don’t mean any disrespect with this at all, please let me know if I’m out of line though!  

 But... I saw some things you said, and they come across to me in a way that I don’t think you intended? I feel really awkward sending this haha, you’re very nice and I don’t think you said anything on purpose, but I just.. wanted to let you know that some of the things regarding your opinion on certain characters come across not very well? I don’t think it’s intentional or anything, and I don’t mean to call you out at all which is why I didn’t want to point it out in the replies y’know?  

 Don’t get me wrong though, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with not liking castiel or destiel. I’ve been watching the show for a while with my dad, and he isn’t a huge fan either, I don’t think that’s a problem :) 

I’d continue without waiting for a response but I don’t want to say something you’ve already been told, or continue without knowing if I’ve said something out of line already 😅

ME:  I'm kind of distracted dealing with my Mom's rehab center. But you can keep going.

THEM: Alright! I’ve tried rephrasing this a million times but I don’t know how to make it seem not antagonistic. I promise I don’t mean that you’re doing it intentionally, it’s just, uh a lot of your criticism of spn feels like it could be read as homophobic? Again I don’t think YOU are I just wanted you to know it kind of reads that way!

That sounded so confrontational. I really don’t mean it that way 😭

ME: HOMOPHOBIC? Really? A lot of the 'proof' your fellow shippers use border on stereotypes but you think I'M homophobic? Considering my top two ships are Wincest and Malec. Yeah, sounds confrontational.

THEM:  I’m sorry, I didn’t mean it like that. I guess there’s no other way to say it, but I understand why you feel accused. What do you mean by proof..?

Also I don’t really think having gay ships means you can’t be homophobic. *I* used to be homophobic years ago, and I’m a gay person!

ME:  How old are you? https://nancylou444.tumblr.com/post/154098904136/a-guide-to-dean-winchesters-imaginary-bisexuality

THEM:  yeah this is starting to get frustrating. I’m gonna be real with you, why does it matter if people think dean is bisexual? like, bottom line, that is my question for you

and your answer will determine if your veracity is homophobic. why does it matter that some people think dean is bisexual. not the fans or actors or writers or anything. why does it matter that some viewers will watch, and they will think dean is bisexual?

ME:  My problem isn't that some people think he is bi IN FANON, my problem is that they want CONFIRMATION OF A FANON SHIP. And that some people DENY how the show ended. These same people think that fake weddings are more canon than the FINAL EPISODE.

THEM:  I get what you mean, but how is it a fanon ship when it’s confirmed romantic from one side, and interpretable as mutually reciprocated in Latin America? (I’m going to disregard the bit about the wedding, because I’m a firm believer in Neil Gaiman variety death of the author. Also that’s just people having fun with fanon, who cares?)

ME:  Confirmed romantic?By whom MISHA, who wanted to sell necklaces? Have you never said 'i love you' to a FRIEND or FAMILY member? The dub is not canon, so don't even try using that as proof. Death of the author is just another way of saying MY VIEW OF THE SHOW IS SUPERIOR TO HOW THE CREATOR WANTS TO SEE IT. Jensen has said many times that the ship isn't canon and that Dean is straight. But it's better to believe what Misha says because he agrees with you. You think somebody is bi because of how they sit or the color clothes they wear? That would make YOU homophobe.

THEM:  LOL You know what? I change my answer. I looked through your blog and you ACTIVELY and viscously hate Cas, Charlie, Claire, Kaia and the implication that Jack may not be straight. You’ve said Cas coming out as gay and in love with dean makes the rest of his actions predatory, compared him to a teenage girl, called him creepy, and openly rejoiced in your idea that dean looked ‘disgusted with him’. You said that Claire is awful, that Kaia is a wooden plank, that they ‘shoved them together’ for ‘woke points’ and said that Jody saying Claire was IN LOVE WITH Kaia ‘doesnt count’ and called it ‘lip service’. And it doesn’t end there! After all this, you said that you preferred the old better s4 Claire. Is it because she was ostensibly straight? Are you uncomfortable with queer women? And then you have the audacity to use these characters (Claire and Kaia and Charlie) as reasons to epicly own the Hellers and claim they already have represention. You are a completely disingenuous bitch and I don’t care to be nice to you anymore! I don’t feel AT ALL charitable toward you anymore, and I don’t care if you have gay ships. Gay people aren’t here for you to fetishize! You CONSTANTLY mock and ridicule jokes made by queer people regarding deans bisexuality or Cas being gay or any number of things. You constantly reaffirm that Dean is straight and call people who think otherwise delusional and disgusting, while you think dean is in romantic sexual love with his male sibling. You are openly hostile to the idea of non-binary jack and were pissed that Alcal endorsed that. You devalue Jack’s value and relationship to Cas who is, textually, his father figure. I have NO reason not to think that you are homophobic. I don’t care anymore! You’re a huge bitch and, judging by your prior responses and posts, a genuine dialogue regarding queerness in spn is impossible. You regard any instance of canonically queer moments ‘lip service’ and so regard it. You actively hate every canonically gay character and degrade them using traditionally homophobic tropes and stereotypes.

Feel free to explain how you aren’t homophobic. I’m so sorry if I got the wrong impression.

ME: Wow I see your true colors have come out HELLER.

THEM:  Idc if you think I’m mean. Go ahead and make a post about me lol, have fun with it. Give me a moment to respond to your paragraph it’s... a lot to dissect.

I’ll touch on your comments about the dub and the Spanish language in a moment. First though

I ’m gonna be real with you, I don’t think you know what death of the author is. Neil Gaiman’s variety of the dead author principal is that once canon ends, the story belongs to those that consume and engage with it. That’s... also literally the theme of supernaturals final season. Anyway I really recommend you read up on death of the author and Neil Gaiman’s takes on fanon. It’s a fun way to consume your media, and in the end that’s what I’m here for.

I don’t care what Misha says, and I don’t care what Jensen says! I think they are both queer because I have eyes and watched the show. I think it’s a lovely narrative that is supported by canon, and it’s fine if you disagree with that

On your last sentence there... lol. It’s a common joke in queer circles that gays can’t sit properly, specifically bisexuals. Same thing with the clothing, it’s a SUPER common joke for example that lesbians wear flannel. Maybe you need to go outside and talk to some normal, non-incest shipping queer people. But what do I know!

And finally... ‘the Spanish dub isnt canon’

I am literally cuban. My first language is SPANISH. my entire household speaks Spanish, and my family past 1st cousins don’t speak any English. My Boricua cousins have watched supernatural in full for years, and they watch it in Spanish. Do you think America is the center of the universe? Do you think our media is somehow less than yours, that our interpretations of English language media isn’t valid? What, do you think we are idiots who don’t know how to analyze literature and media? Do you think the people who work at Telemundo, people employed as dubbers and translators, you think they do a worse job than the American crew?

Why, because they aren’t American or don’t speak English? ‘Te amo’ said to a non family member is, in 99% of any instance, ROMANTIC. it’s something you say to your spouse in serious situations like weddings!! Even MARRIED people don’t normally say te amo, everyone uses te quiero unless it is very serious or romantic in context.

All of my family who are Spanish language, they heard dean say ‘y a yo ti, cas’ and think that they were in romantic love. Sorry dude! The United States might be the center of your universe, but Latin America is HUGE. Spanish is one of the most spoken languages in the WORLD. In fact, more people speak Spanish than English. Sorry that you seem to hate gay characters SO MUCH you have to say an entire language somehow isn’t valid to consume media in!

ME: 

Obviously this heller is batshit crazy. 

Some of those things she thinks I said just show she has no idea how to follow a tumblr thread. 

You are a completely disingenuous bitch and I don’t care to be nice to you anymore! I don’t feel AT ALL charitable toward you anymore, and I don’t care if you have gay ships. Gay people aren’t here for you to fetishize! You CONSTANTLY mock and ridicule jokes made by queer people regarding deans bisexuality or Cas being gay or any number of things. You constantly reaffirm that Dean is straight and call people who think otherwise delusional and disgusting, while you think dean is in romantic sexual love with his male sibling.

Wow. 

I have NO reason not to think that you are homophobic. I don’t care anymore! You’re a huge bitch and, judging by your prior responses and posts, a genuine dialogue regarding queerness in spn is impossible. You regard any instance of canonically queer moments ‘lip service’ and so regard it. You actively hate every canonically gay character and degrade them using traditionally homophobic tropes and stereotypes.

Where have I hated canon gay characters and degraded them using tropes and stereotypes? The bitch has me confused with HER FELLOW SHIPPERS. 

Gotta love how she is defending the Spanish dub. Hit a nerve did I? 

It’s a common joke in queer circles that gays can’t sit properly, specifically bisexuals. Same thing with the clothing, it’s a SUPER common joke for example that lesbians wear flannel. Maybe you need to go outside and talk to some normal, non-incest shipping queer people.

Now who is using stereotypes? 

[casmybelovedass]

The Destiel Folder: Season 10

[Season 4; Season 5; Season 6; Season 7; Season 8; Season 9]

Episode 1:

Cas is slowly dying, practically naked, in a bed, and the first thing he says when talking about Dean is "I miss him" (6:35), with a soft smile. "Why would he just disappear?"

... I'm sorry but If Cas Were A Woman, this would look like a scene from a movie or something, where the wife talks to a friend over the phone about her missing husband. JUST SAYING

Crowley: "The girl seemed nice. Slightly damaged. I could see the old you falling for that." (9:29) uhm... who else is "nice and slightly" damaged? I don't know... CASTIEL??!!!

So... these two men (actors Todd Mann and Brad Mann) we see with the DemonGang, are real life twins (9:14).

At (27:18), Crowley states him and Dean did "extroardinary things to triplets" ... and, well, the only twins with a possible other sibling we see are... them

And this is not the first time we hear about Dean doing "things to triplets" with a buddy of his (15x07)... and the first time he was NOT a demon... so, there's that. And triplets don't necessarily mean "all females"

Cas, while talking about the good things that come with choices, mentions "hope, love, dreams" (39:06), and Hannah points out that "those are human things". Human things...

Cas is talking about his own personal experiences with creating chaos, so those are the things he felt after rebelling for... Dean... WOW. ICWAW, it would totally be read it as a reference to Dean. A romantic one. Fight me

Episode 2:

Cas is dying, just got back from a fight that left him wounded, doesn't have enough power to heal himself, is on a mission to restore Heaven, and once again he chooses to go save Dean (9:35), and the way rage builds in his eyes when learning Dean has become a demon. Look at this shit

I might be crazy, but this feels like a touching metaphor to me:

"I think you don't know what you want. Tell me, Dean. What are you? A demon? [...] Maybe you're human. [...] Why don't you do us all a great, big favor... and pick a bloody side!" (22:22)

METAPHOR

Episode 3:

We are reminded that, even tho in terrible conditions, on the verge of death, Cas is willing to risk it all to save Dean, and is devastated by the thought of Dean not making it (4:47 - 5:17)

This is so funny to me, I'm sorry, but Cas is so visibly uncomfortable with Hannah touching him, it's hilarious (15:58)

"I've been around humans for long enough to see how easily distractions occur. Emotions, feelings... They're dangerous temptations." (22:32) like rebelling against your own kind, destroying your home, falling... all for a human?

"I'm trying to keep our priorities clear." Moments earlier, Cas listed "Getting to Dean" (22:17) before anything else. In fact, Hannah says "I am very clear of my priorities... and yours." = Dean (23:00)

Cas is not sure whether the cure will kill Dean or not, and in any case, he wraps his arms around him, and softly says "It's over... Dean it's over." (35:40) as if hushing him to sleep, in what could have been their last moments together... wow. Think about this ICWAW

"Well, I can see his point. Only humans can feel real joy, but... also such profound pain. This is easier." (36:17) Look at the way Sam is looking at Cas looking at Dean

BITCH OKAY!!

SAM KNOWS

POSSIBILE future Empty reference "real joy"

Cas already stated he misses being human, but knows how fragile they are in both body and spirit:

Castiel really wants to be with Dean. For real. But maybe he thinks (see season 9) him being an angel is an obstacle to their feelings.

Only by being human he can truly be happy (MMMMMMHH SEASON 15), but isn't sure he could handle the pain that comes with it. A possible rejection, the thought of Dean dying, him leaving Dean... MMMMHHHHH

"You look terrible." [...] "Well, you, on the other hand, you... *checks out Cas* Looking good." (39:09) full homo right there. Also parallel with Ketch in 13x18 ("You don't look good." "Yeah, well, you're not my type, either.")

The way they are looking at each other here... man.

Cas is so happy to have Dean back, and Dean looks hurt about Cas leaving so soon.

"So... so, you're back?" "At least temporarily." (39:27) bitch, you know that's not what he ment.

In all of this, Cas is trying to make Dean feel better about the whole situation (DAT SMILE 40:18), and Dean replies with "I'm glad you're back, man.", basically no-homoing himself...

Cas starts walking out of the room, but stops and turns back [insert concerned husband here] (40:27), and Dean has that hopeful look in his eyes, like Cas is going to stay, and the hurtful look comes back as soon as Cas is gone

Episode 4:

"On your knees!" "Wow, I'm awfully flattered-" (34:33) SASSY BI DEAN IS THE DEAN WE DESERVE

Episode 5:

Fucking kill me NOW!!! Dean's reaction to Destiel is PRICELESS!! And even before he learns what that is, he just looks at the girls playing him and Cas and... freezes for a moment (13:18) And the eyebrow raise thingy at (13:34)... what's going on in your brain, Dean?

I'd like to point out that the Italian translation for "You can't spell 'subtext' without S-E-X" is, for once, AMAZING:

"It's just that... their bond is so strong it has subtext of a... sexual nature."

THANK YOU ITALIAN DUB! JUST THIS ONCE, THANK YOU! (13:43)

Also at (9:44) Dean immediately reacts to the implication of Wincest subtext, shutting it down and telling the girls to take a step back, but with Destiel he is like... alright

... this is so fucking cute, (25:54) Dean adjusts the girl playing Cas' tie so that it's messed up like the real Cas'. ADORABLE

SAM SHIPS IT (13:57) and is teasing the SHIT out of Dean, who reacts like someone being teased about their crush. Just saying (14:08 - 14:52) [AND THIS HAPPENS IN FRONT OF A PINK-BLUE WALL]

"I know I have expressed some differences of opinion regarding this version of Supernatural." (26:44) ... oookay meta? *turns to "Cas"* "And I want you to put as much sub into that text as you possibly can." ... oKAY?!

Episode 7:

Cas being extremely uncomfortable with women is too fucking funny to me (5:03 - 12:51)

Episode 9:

(15:13) Alright, so, this is a date... what now? Anyway, nice bi flannel, Dean. And the little sweet smiles you two are giving each other? So fucking precious (16:01)

"I ain't exactly a role model." "That's not true." (16:07) how Dean looks at Cas right after that? BABIES!

"How are you, Dean?" "Fine." "*I-call-bullshit look*" "I'm great!" "No, you're not." (16:18) #MARRIED

As Cas is choke-holding a guy, Dean, clearly amused (almost proudly), says "I'd do what he says." (22:17) Like that time with Raphael in 5x03, Dean likes it when Cas gets rough

Episode 10:

Shut the fuck up and marry each other already so you can finally actually BE the old married couple™️ you ALREADY ARE (22:17)

This is the "My husband is so FUCKING STUPID" look (22:30)

"I was hoping you might reach out to her." "... Me? I'm probably the last person she'd want to hear from." [...] "All I know... is she won't talk to me." (23:03) #MARRIED, PARENTS, PERIODT

Shut the fuck up. Cas is the dad trying to figure out technology (23:36) "I'll text you her number. I like texting. Emotions!" DAD

Cas worries about Dean like a wife would with an alcoholic husband

Of all the things Dean could be MAD about at Metateon... the first thing he can think of is him stealing Cas' grace (31:33) (okay, maybe he is going in chronological order but STILL)

Episode 11:

[I AM SO SO SO SORRY BUT DEAN USED THE ALIAS "PRESLEY" (18:55) I AM NOT OKAY]

Episode 14:

Have this deleted scene: Castiel and Crowley bitching over Dean, and Crowley calling Dean Cas' boyfriend

This is some hell of a goodbye-eye-love-making scene (26:57)

Cain compares himself to Dean... and CAS TO HIS WIFE COLLETTE [PARALLELS]

"You're living my life in reverse [...]

First you'd kill Crowley. You'd get it done, no remorse. (Cain had been killing his descendants, for whom he didn't care much)

And then you'd kill the angel, Castiel. Now, that one... that, I suspect, would hurt something awful. [And than Sam is Able, bla bla...]"

AM I WRONG?! YOU'RE GONNA LOOK AT ME AND TELL ME THAT I'M WRONG??!!!

Dean gives the First Blade to Cas... oKAY (37:10)

Worried brother-in-laws (41:27)

Episode 16:

This is such a good source of hidden meanings scene! Dean starts his "confession" as a scam. Everything he says at first is to attract the spirit.

He starts talking about seeing lots of women, not being able to control himself, and being sick of it. Then the real confession begins...

Dean feels he's going to die soon, and fears not death itself, but what he would be missing from his life.

"There's things... people, feelings that I... I would experience differently than I had before. Or even for the first time." (25:28) and the priest believes Dean is talking about love.

Well... "people, feelings"... who could he be referring to? Does Dean want love all of a sudden? People he wants to experience for the first time... uhmmmm... Is Dean opening up to his attraction to MEN??!! Or one angel in particular?

ICWAW we would guess Dean was talking about Cas

"Who mixes their blood and bones into paint? No woman has ever done that for me." (39:19) UHM- Dean, what about

6x20 "He has bled, died bla bla bla for us",

7x21 "I'm always happy to bleed for the Winchesters" or

9x22 "You just gave up an entire army for one guy"

ICWAW we would ALL roll our eyes at this statement and scream CAS

THE GUY BLED, LOST HIS HOME, REBELLED, DIED FOR YOU!! HE REBUILT YOU PIECE BY PIECE FROM HELL- SAVED YOU DOZENS OF TIMES!!!

Episode 17:

About saving Dean from the Mark: "We won't- (free Metatron)" "Yes, you will... because you're desperate." (9:44) Hannah knows. Let's remark that

"All I'm getting from you is... colours." (14:26) bitch he is a walking 🌈PRIDE FLAG🏳️‍🌈

Notice how, when we get a Sam-Cas centred episode, we don't get the same interactions with Dean-Cas? Why this?

Dean is always ready to call Cas a "brother", but the only one true bromance here is Sam and Cas'. There are no longing stares, no weird sexual filled dialogue nor tension, NO LONGING STARES

Facts, my people. Facts

Episode 18:

"You killed my friend." "Oh, pff, Dean is fine, mostly. Can't you get past that?" "Never." (12:39)

Charlie being excited about meeting Dean's famous boyfriend is WHOLESOME (37:34)

To have Cas back, 100%, safe and sound, is a win for Dean (38:58) and the face Cas makes after Dean hits him with another no-homo "It's good to have you back, pal." is "UHH not this again". Charlie already ships it

Episode 20:

A #MARRIED couple and their daughter. NO ARGUMENTS VALID (7:06)

Look at how they enter the motel (16:22)

OH MY GOOOOOD!!! #PARENTS coming back home from shopping!! THE HAND ON THE SHOULDER!!! Also

"Happy birthday. I got it at the Hot Topical" DAD

Dean: "Imma head back over there." Cas: "I'm coming with you." Claire: "I'm coming with you too." (17:24) #FAMILY

A fucking family comedy about a dad confronting the daughter's boyfriend and the other dad scolding him:

"What did you do to him?" "I didn't lay a hand on him!" "Dean, that isn't exactly true." "... Well, I didn't kill the guy." (17:14)

Surprisingly enough, this is not the first nor last time Dean acts like a dad to a lost child (AND TWO OF THESE TIMES THE KID IS SOMEHOW RELATED TO CAS) (21:54)

Episode 22:

C: "Claire, you are not going out there. [...] It's too dangerous. I can't let anything happen to you." D: "Claire, you're not going." C: "You're not either, Dean." D: "What?" (19:29)

#FAMILY DON'T TALK TO ME!

"No fighting. [...] Both of you." AAAAAA

This doesn't fucking matter, but Dean just said "... for the ladies. Or the fellas. I don't judge." (36:23)

Cas' speech to Dean... wow. "So if there's even a small chance that we can save you... I won't let you walk out of this room." (39:20)

I hate this scene. (40:11)

Dean is overwhelmed by Charlie's death, Sam and Cas' betrayal, the Mark changing him and all the other shit.

The Mark is taking over, and Dean can't (and won't) help it. Cas knows it. He doesn't want to hurt Dean. He is not even resisting. Doesn't put up a fight.

And just like Colette with Cain, Castiel only asks Dean one thing: "Stop." (40:38) [9x11]

Parallel to 8x07:

The only thing that stops Cas from killing Dean, is him begging, clutching onto his sleeve.

"Dean... please..." (41:08) Cas pleading Dean, clutching to his arm, makes him resist the urge to kill him.

Episode 23:

You can find gifs and the script of some deleted (destiel) scenes in this post by @charlie-minion

As the Mark eats Dean... he starts feeling guilt for the people he hurt... first on the list: Cas (14:54)

(This gif is not mine)

Well... what a season.

[Season 11>>]

[eisforeidolon]

i am the Spanish anon again and yeah you’re SO right. that actually made me feel better. i literally grew up watching spn so having the ending... ruined for me and my family, i guess, really sucked. but also i disagree that it isn’t explicitly romantic. I think it was undeniably romantic and that just makes it worse.

Like I keep thinking ‘M*sha had to be involved in this decision’. it just reeks of him and his clout chasing lmao. Like... they did use the word for brother but it was used in a more nicknamey way? I’d watch it right now to see the exact phrasing because it was probably the sentence structure, but i don’t wanna see it again until i get there in rewatching with my friend.

I don’t know man it just genuinely upsets me because this show was very important to me growing up? the relationship between the family and stuff, the confession from 15.18 changes just the entire context of the show and then the Spanish dub makes hellers correct. i hate to give them credit but it makes their analysis and crackpot theories correct :(

the scene with Sam and Dean was thank god more emotionally touching than the Cass confession. i dont ship wincest at all (no hate to people who do!) but it makes sense to use te amo for siblings in that scenario because... like normally you’d use te quiero but amo is used in very emotional scenarios like weddings, deathbeds. i have said ‘te amo’ to family members who were very sick or dying in any other situation i would say te quiero

this just makes Cass so much worse. they COULD have had him say something like ‘te quiero mucho, lo siento y gracias por tu carino’. that would make perfect sense and be just as emotionally touching as the original scene. the way the confession is said and structured it just... i don’t know it’s awful. they CHOSE not to use ‘quiero’ they chose to erase the relationship between the brothers in favor of some fetish ship.

I saw another post saying they couldn’t use the platonic love because it would translate to Spanish audiences as “I care about you.” I really appreciate everyone trying to explain the Spanish dub but I’ve seen that explanation multiple times and it just... really takes away the fault from the hellers and M*sha himself. because ‘te quiero’ was like a neon sign flashing in the background it was the ONLY phrasing that would have made sense but the freaks gaslighted everyone into deciding otherwise.

This is so long I’m sorry 😭. it just pisses me off. normally i let people ship whatever they want but with destihellers, they screamed to everyone about their ship and now Hispanic watchers will think dean was ‘in love’ with Cass. again ruining the integrity of the show ESPECIALLY for non Americans!!!

SORRY, last anon again. I forgot to mention your explanation of why dean would reply “and i you” makes PERFECT sense. i will use that as an explanation from now on, its the best way to at least try to explain away and minimize the stupid confession

**********

I'm sorry that you feel like it was ruined for you.

In English, it feels so intentionally ambiguous because Cas says "I love you" and not "I am in love with you". It would be very easy to include that one word and remove all ambiguity in what he meant and yet Berens chose not to, trying to win over the hellers - but not piss off the other side too bad. I honestly cannot speak as to what the implications of the scene as a whole are and the nuances in Spanish. (I'll address the script conspiracies stuff in another response since this is so long already.)

At the end of the day, I absolutely believe Berens and Misha pandered to the hellers on purpose and that does annoy me, because heller theories were stupid and they were assholes for years so rewarding them for twitter follows and shelling cheap merch kinda disgusts me. Misha lies like a rug, so it's hard to know to what extent it's true - but he did say that not only did he pitch the idea of Cas declaring love for Dean and dying, he suggested he actively went behind Jensen's back to pitch it in secret to Berens months in advance.

However I also gave up on Castiel being a decent character years ago, and at the very most, the scene is a one sided declaration of romantic love that Dean doesn't reciprocate. So it doesn't bug me nearly so much as it does people who were still fans of canon Castiel and hate how it ruins every single bit of his learning to understand free will and caring about the world - you know actual character development - to make it all about stalking Dean.

[atc74]

The Girl Is Mine

Square(s) Filled:  Fight/Argument for @spnbromentbingo,  We’ve Got Work To Do for @spntfwbingo,  Good Things Come To Those Who Wait for @as-the-saying-goes-bingo

Warnings: Brothers being brothers and fighting over a girl. Language, implied future sexy times, implied poly relationship, jealousy

Summary: Y/N has been seeing both Winchester brothers and the arrangement seems to be working for all three, until it isn’t.

Pairing: Dean x Reader, Sam x Reader, implied Dean x Reader x Sam (no Wincest)

Word Count: 1593

Written for: @spnbromentbingo, @spntfwbingo, @as-the-saying-goes-bingo​ and for my own Angelina’s Duets Reboot Challenge for the song “The Girl Is Mine” from Paul McCartney and Michael Jackson. This is also a special request from @foxyjwls007 for being my 4,000 follower! I hope you like it!

Thank you to my beta @amanda-teaches. 

A/N: I had this funny, crackish idea when I put together the awesome playlist for my 4k challenge, because it’s a great song (I’m nostalgic). But then when @foxyjwls007 told me her request, I was hooked! 

Looking for a next level fan experience? Buy Sam or Dean’s scent here from @scentsfromthebunker!

“Every night she walks right in my dreams, since I met her from the start. I'm so proud I am the only one who is special in her heart,” Dean sighed contentedly. “The girl is mine. The doggone girl is mine.” 

“I don't understand the way you think, saying that she's yours not mine. Sending roses and your silly dreams, really just a waste of time,” Sam argued. “Because she’s mine. The doggone girl is mine.” 

Truth be told, through all the years, through all the women, the brothers had never been in this situation before. It was new and uncharted territory for both of them. 

“I know she’s mine,” Dean pointed out. 

“Don’t waste your time,” Sam scoffed. 

“What are you guys talking about it?” Y/N bounced into the room, snacking on an apple. “New case a waste of time, you said?” She slid into the seat to Sam’s right, across from Dean.

“I love you more than he,” Sam blurted out. 

“But I love you endlessly,” Dean professed. 

“What?” Y/N looked from one to the other. 

“But we both cannot have her, so it’s one or the other,” Dean argued. “And one day you’ll discover that she’s my girl forever and ever.” 

Sam laughed. “I don't build your hopes to be let down, ‘cause I really feel it's time.” 

“I know she'll tell you I'm the one for her, 'cause she said I blow her mind.” Dean smirked proudly, like a peacock flaunting his tail feathers. “The girl is mine. Don’t waste your time.” 

“She’s mine,” Sam snapped. 

“She’s mine,” Dean retorted.

“No no no, she’s mine,” Sam stood, getting in Dean’s face, but Dean stood his ground.

“The girl is mine,” Dean repeated. 

Something inside Sam snapped and he grabbed Dean with both arms, throwing him to the floor. They weren’t even fighting, not really. It was more a tangle of limbs and missed opportunities than anything. 

Y/N sat watching the exchange, an amused smirk on her face. Sure, she had been seeing both brothers for the last few months. They both knew about the other, and she made sure they got equal attention. The last they needed in their relationship was to be keeping secrets from each other, so she was upfront with her arrangement from the beginning. She felt deeply for both Sam and Dean and if the King of Hell himself showed and told her to choose, she knew she wouldn’t be able to pick one over the other. Still, the scene unfolding in front of her was entertaining. She set her apple down and wiped her fingers on her jeans. 

“Enough!” she yelled over the grunting and cursing. 

They froze, their eyes snapping up to hers. With sheepish looks, they released each other, climbing back into their respective chairs. 

“Dean, we’re not going to fight about this,” Sam postulated, pulling himself together. 

“Sammy, you know I’m a lover, not a fighter,” Dean smiled. 

“I've heard it all before, Dean. She told me that I'm her forever lover, you know, don't you remember?” 

“Well, after loving me, she said she couldn't love another,” Dean grinned ear to ear.

“Is that what she said?” Sam questioned. 

“Yes, she said it, you keep dreaming,” Dean laughed. 

“I don't believe it,” Sam shook his head, looking down at Y/N. 

“The girl is mine,” Dean sang. 

“Do I get a say in this?” Y/N finally spoke up. 

“No!” They shouted simultaneously. The look on her face made them backpedal pretty quickly. 

“I mean, yes. You do, but it’s me, right?” Sam smiled. 

“I’m sorry, sweetheart. Your opinion is the only one that matters here, so just go ahead and tell Sam you’re my girl,” Dean winked at her from across the table. 

“No!” Y/N held up her hands. “You’re both acting like children right now. When you figure your shit out, I’ll be in my room.” 

“Look what you did!” Sam shouted at his brother, both of them watching Y/N as she retreated to the peace and quiet of her room. 

“Oh no, dude, you don’t get to pin this on me. You started it!” Dean bellowed, pissed that they let it go that far. 

“Whatever, jerk.” 

“Bitch,” Dean snapped back, taking his seat at the table. He avoided Sam’s bitch face while he righted his laptop and journal after their scuffle. He finally let out a loud sigh.“We need to fix this, Sammy.” 

“Yeah, I know. Any ideas?” Sam resumed his position at the head of the table.

“Well, an apology, her favorite wine and a home cooked meal would be a good start,” Dean remarked. 

“I’ll run to town, you start dinner?” Sam suggested and Dean nodded in agreement. 

Dean quickly gathered the ingredients for one of her favorite meals and had everything prepped by the time Sam returned. He placed the wine in the icebox to chill then followed Dean’s instructions, helping him with dinner. They came up with an apology and a plan to get back in her good graces within the hour, just as the timer dinged. 

Sam had prepared a salad and set the table with the finest institutional ceramic plates in the Men of Letters Bunker. They both walked down the hall to Y/N’s room, Sam knocking softly. 

“Come in,” her voice carried through the steel vents at the base of the door and Sam pushed it open. 

“We thought you might be hungry. I made your favorite and we have something we’d like to say,” Dean explained. 

“Alright,” Y/N nodded, getting up from her desk where she had been updating her journal from the last hunt. She followed Sam and Dean down the hall to the library. She stopped short when she saw one of the tables covered with a linen tablecloth. There were two tapered candles in crystal candle holders. A bottle of her favorite wine sat uncorked in an ice bucket. She wasn’t much for emotion, and neither were the brothers, so the lump in her throat at the gesture caught her by surprise. She cleared her throat and moved to her regular chair. 

Sam and Dean both pulled out her chair, one on either side and, once she was seated, they took their own places at the table. 

“I didn’t even know the Bunker had nice things like this; an ice bucket, candle holders. Nice touch,” she commented, looking over the table. The aroma of dinner made its way to tickle her senses, and her mouth started watering. She lifted the cover from her plate. Jalapeno bacon macaroni and cheese with the crunchy panko topping Dean knew she loved. “Dean, this looks and smells amazing.”

“I made it with the crunchy top, just like you like it.” He smiled at her from across the table, his eyes shining golden in the candlelight. “Doesn’t taste the same without it.” 

“Doesn’t taste the same without it,” she spoke at the same time, all three of them falling into easy laughter. 

“Shall we eat?” Sam lifted his own cover. 

The minutes that passed were filled with the sounds of mutual gratification as they enjoyed the meal Dean had prepared. Soon enough, the plates were picked clean and bellies were full. 

Y/N picked up her wine glass, leaning forward, elbows on the table. “So, was this dinner your peace offering?” She eyed them both, sipping from her glass. 

“For a start. Y/N, sweetheart, I’m sorry. My behavior tonight was childish, purposely picking a fight with Sam. It was a dick move, and you both deserve better than that,” Dean offered his apology first. 

“Thank you, Dean,” Y/N smiled, reaching across the table to hold his hand. 

“I’m sorry, too, Y/N. I knew Dean was being a dick on purpose, and I fell right into his trap. This isn’t who I am, who we are. And, I think you know that. You wouldn’t choose to be with us if it was. We’re better men because of you,” Sam reached his own hand over, grabbing hers. 

“Thank you, Sam. I appreciate and accept both of your apologies,” she acknowledged. “However, if this is going to work, we need to talk to each other. No more fighting.” 

“What do you mean ‘this’?” Dean air quoted. 

“I chose you both for different reasons. You’re both good men and excellent lovers, but together, you’re perfect for me. I can’t get what I need from just one of you, and I have decided I want both of you,” she shrugged, draining the last of her wine. 

“Really?” Sam questioned, his brows furrowed at the possible implications. 

“Yes, really. I’ve got everything I need right here. There will need to be ground rules that we have to stick to, like we've been doing, but no whiny baby bullshit like you two pulled tonight. Got it?” Y/N looked pointedly at each of them. 

“Got it,” they replied together. 

“Good. Now, let’s get this cleaned up. We’ve got work to do,” she smiled. 

“Like sexy work?” Dean wiggled his eyebrows. 

“Good things come to those who wait, Dean. Like tearing down the wall in two of the spare rooms to make one large space for when I want all of us to be together. Cool?” Y/N started clearing the dishes, waiting for one of them to protest.

“Cool,” they replied in unison. 

There wasn’t that one perfect person out there for everyone. For some, it was two perfect people that made you whole. That made your family.

Did you like it? The best thing you can do for a writer is to reblog their story and tell them, and others, how much you like it!

The Whole Enchilada: @iwantthedean @dolphincliffs @mrswhozeewhatsis @meganwinchester1999 @cherrycokegirls1 @closetspngirl  @roxyspearing @flamencodiva @blacktithe7 @sis-tafics @just-another-busyfangirl @evansrogerskitten @amanda-teaches @hannahindie @wotinspntarnation @winchesterprincessbride @winecatsandpizza @kickingitwithkirk  @wi-deangirl77 @hobby27 @mogaruke @gh0stgurl @alleiradayne @idreamofplaid @seenashwrite @crashdevlin @thoughtslikeaminefield @emoryhemsworth

The Dean’s List/Jensen’s Jamboree: @jerkbitchidjitassbutt @dean-winchesters-bacon @maddiepants  @adoptdontshoppets @mtngirlforever @supernatural-jackles

The Sam Sin-dicate / Jared’s Menagerie: @mtngirlforever @supernatural-jackles

[impala-dreamer]

Rock, Paper, Scissors

SPN FanFic

~Dean and Sam play a little game to see who gets you where, but are there really any losers?~

Dean x Reader x Sam (No Wincest)

2,090 Words

Warnings: NSFW. All Smut. Slight D/s implications, nicknames, etc. Spit Roast. Oral, Fingering, Penetration, All the Sex things. Also fluff and some silly broments. 

A/N: This was written drunkenly for The Porn Wars for @covered-byroses, but it went slightly over the standard 500 word limit... just slightly. but it’s worth it. lol

The Porn War Masterlist ~ Feedback is Gold ~ My Masterlist ~ Become A Patreon

It was a strange feeling having them both tower over you, staring down upon you as if you were simply a play thing, an object to be enjoyed. Their eyes mapped your body as you knelt at the foot of the bed, your bare knees denting the memory foam of Dean’s mattress with delicate cups.

“Dessert.” That’s what Dean had asked for. He wanted dessert tonight, and you were the only thing on the menu. He’d dressed you up, nice and pretty, laying out a pink teddy with lacy cups for you. It was sheer and the room was cool, giving him and Sam a perfect view of your hard nipples through the fabric. You were bare beneath it, not a scrap of lace blocking your already slick pussy, and just for fun, you did you hair up in little pigtails; something you knew Dean in particular enjoyed.

"Will you look at our girl, Sammy?” he said, running a firm hand down his smooth chest, giving his own nipples a brush with calloused fingertips. He shivered and licked his lip as jade eyes traveled down between your parted legs. “All wet and ready for us."

"She's perfect," Sam agreed, fisting his massive cock; pink bottom lip pulled tight between his teeth.

Dean growled under his breath and tipped his head to the side, taking in a new angle. "Mmm. Looks delicious. So,” he said, taking on a professional air. “...which end you want?"

Sam smirked and pushed his bottom lip out with a sigh. "Play ya for it?"

“Awesome.” Dean agreed with a nod and pivoted towards his brother, bringing his fist up to lay flat against his palm. Before the game began, he looked back over his shoulder at you. “Play with that pussy while we decide, Princess. Want you ready to go when we are.”

A blissful sigh passed your lips as you spread your knees and stuffed two fingers into your cunt, your belly tightening at the sensation. It didn’t take much to get you going lately, especially when both Winchesters  were exposed before your eyes. And the fact that they were gambling over who got your pussy and who got your mouth- you could hear how wet you were. Your hand sloshed in and out a few times before rising up to circle your clit. Jolts of excitement flowed through you as you squeezed and rubbed at the swollen nub; eyes locked to their swaying cocks as the boys played their game.

Two large fists slammed into flat palms, and Dean grimaced as Sam’s rock crushed his scissors.

“Damnit,” he mumbled, readying his fist again.

“Always with the scissors, Dean.” Sam tisked, raising his hand in preparation.

“Yeah, well I’m not gonna pick scissors this time.”

Sam scoffed. “Sure.”

“I’m not,” Dean insisted.

You moaned loudly as a drop of arousal slid down your thigh, making your shiver. “Please…”

“Be right with you, Little One,” Sam assured you with a smile.

Dean cleared his throat and counted down. “Two… One… Shit.”

“I knew you’d go scissors again,” Sam laughed.

“Why are we even doing this?” Dean snapped with a roll of his eyes.

“You wanted to,” Sam shrugged, “but it’s over anyway. I won.”

Before Dean could protest, Sam all but pushed him aside, reaching you in two long steps. He stood in front of you and looked down, hazel eyes growing wide and dark as he looked you over.

“Hi,” he whispered, running two tender fingers across your temple and down to cup your ear, urging your chin up to him.

You felt the heat rush to meet his fingers, your skin flushing with arousal. “Hi.” You smiled and squeezed your elbows together, shrinking down in size. Sam was so big, he always made you feel like a tiny doll in his hands, and tonight was no different.

“So,” he said softly, leaving your ear to run his fingers through your hair, tugging gently on one pigtail. “Where would you like me tonight?”

Your eyes flew open wide with excitement at such a choice and you gaped up at him, unsure. “I-I don’t know, Sir.” You flashed a look at Dean who stared at you with narrowed eyes, his tongue between his teeth as he leisurely stroked his thick erection.

“Come on, Little One,” Sam cooed calling back your attention. “Tell me what you want. Shall I enjoy this beautiful mouth?” His thumb plucked slowly at your lips, tracing the bottom and gently pushing inside. You closed your eyes as your mouth watered, tongue reaching out to pull the long digit inside, but Sam pulled away before your capture was complete. “Or should I wreck this sweet little cunt?” Without ceremony, Sam shoved his hand between your legs, knocking your hand away as he covered your cunt with his long hand, pushing the heel of his palm firmly against your clit. You gasped and felt your thighs close around his hand as he turned his hand in a torturously slow circle.

“P-please…” You shuddered against his hand, eyes foggy as you looked up, begging.

“Tell me.”

“I-want… fuck my pussy please, Sir. Please.”

Sam smirked and slid his middle finger inside you, teasing the tip in and out quickly. “Good choice.”

As he sank in a little deeper, you fell backwards on your heels, arms dropping behind you for balance. Sam added a second finger and pumped his hand nice and slow, watching as your hips rose to greet each thrust.

“Look at that, Dean,” he said proudly, “such a perfect little slut for us.”

“She is pretty perfect,” Dean chimned in as he stepped closer, his cock glistening with precum. “Absolutely perfect.”

Sam let out a wolflike growl and withdrew his hand, moving to put his knee on the bed next to you. “I’m gonna enjoy this,” he said, crawling onto the bed to lay down behind you.

Your attention turned to Dean as he took Sam’s spot, smiling down at you as Sam settled into place. “You OK, Princess?”

“Of course,” you replied with a smile, body aching for him, for Sam, for whatever was to come.

Dean reached out with a warm hand to cup your breast, teasing at the lace with the tip of his thumb until it curled downwards. “So… beautiful, Y/N,” he sighed, taking your nipple between two fingers and pinching softly. The touch made your pussy clench and you whimpered pathetically.

“Dean…”

He smiled and bent down to kiss you, licking into your mouth with a whiskey flavored tongue, and the world went dark as your eyes closed for him. You melted against him, blood zinging with electricity as he grabbed your tits while sucking the air from your lungs.

You teetered forward as he pulled away, chasing his kiss with your tingling lips. He laughed and pecked you once more before backing away.

Sam cleared his throat behind you, propped up on the pillows and pumping his cock with a lazy hand. “Come here, Little One.”

Without hesitation, you crawled to Sam, turning your back on Dean but only for a moment. You felt the bed shift as he joined you, the memory foam perfectly cradling each of your bodies.

Sam accepted your kisses with open arms, holding you close while you tasted his mouth, his scruffy jaw, the salt on his neck. When his breath began to deepen, he halted your affections with a firm hand on the back of your neck.

“Give me that ass,” he panted, reached around you with a long arm to grab at your backside.

Biting your lip, you turned around for him, up on all fours, knees gently spread. Sam sat up took a taste, digging his teeth into the plump globe of your ass, making you moan with the shocked pleasure of the nip. He pulled back and ran his fingers through your slit, smirking as you rocked back, begging for more.

“Why don’t you go for a ride?” he suggested with a firm tap on your ass.

“May I?” you asked out of habit, your mind fuzzy with desire.

Sam smiled and gripped the base of his cock as you looked on with wild eyes. “Go on.”

He slid right in, your cunt stretching perfectly around him, ass meeting his waiting hands as he guided you down. Your mouth dropped in a voiceless whisper as the fullness pushed through you.

“Fuck…” you moaned once he was fully inside, and Dean scooted into position in between Sam’s legs.

“Keep that mouth open, Princess,” he ordered, fisting his thick cock, spreading the wetness down over the ruddy head.

You dropped down onto your hands and your jaw went slack, vision blurring as Sam lifted his hips. “Please!”

Dean cut off your cry, dragging the tip of his cock across your lips. “Fuck, I love this mouth.”

There was nothing more perfect that being caught between them, two gorgeous men; thick, strong bodies pressed against you, their beautiful cocks ramming into you. Your mind went blank as your body took over, pussy clenching, mouth sucking. You were nothing but holes for their pleasure, and you couldn’t have been more happy.

Dean wrapped his hands tight around your pigtails, holding you still as he pistoned into your mouth, fucking you with a quickness that you couldn’t follow. He was heavy and salty on your tongue, and you gagged each time he hit the back of your throat with his enthusiastic thrusts.

Sam was hitting every spot inside, his massive length drawing the orgasm from you in a rush of pleasure; your juices flooding his cock and everything beneath.

You cried out as you came, and Dean pressed on the back of your head, holding himself inside, making you shake even more. You swallowed around him and he lost it, spurting hot cum down your throat as he jerked into your mouth with quick jabs. When he couldn’t take the pressure any longer, Dean pulled away, a string of saliva and semen hanging between your lips and his falling erection.

Dean patted your cheek in thanks and slipped away, laying down across the foot of the bed to watch you bounce on his brother’s cock.

“This is a good view,” he said, eyes zoned in on your jiggling tits beneath the lace. “Very nice.”

“I’m...glad… you… like… it!” you cried, words broken by Sam’s hips ramming at your gate. “Oh my god!”

His hands fit on your hips and Sam pulled you back, forcing you to grind down on him. “You gonna cum again for me?” he hissed, teeth clenched and lips twitching.

“I-I-yes, Sir!”

Two long finger snaked around your hips to push against your clit, and you screamed as Sam rubbed furious and tight circles.

“Fuck!”

Another wave passed through you and out, drenching him again as you came, this time pulling him along with you. You could feel his thighs stiffen beneath you, heard his blasphemous cry. His fingers dug into your flesh as he held you in place, pumping into you a few final times before going limp at your sides.

“Damn.” He was out of breath and immobile, stuck against the pillows. “Wow.”

Your thighs ached as you climbed off of him and dropped down, pulled to the side by Dean who wrapped a giant arm around your middle and dragged you to him. He curled himself around you and dropped kisses to your neck as he moulded against your back.

“Feeling good?” he whispered.

All you could do was nod and hum a bit as a yawn overtook you, your hunger sated, your mind relaxed and calm.

“Good.” He squeezed you tight and you sighed in his arms.

Sam popped his head up and scooted to one side of the bed, tapping the space next to him. “Come on up here. I wanna go to sleep,” he urged, fluffing the pillow behind his head.

Dean let you go, but followed, both of you dropping down on the proper side of the bed.

“OK, but who’s spooning who?” Dean asked suddenly, popping up on one arm to eye his brother.

Sam shrugged.

“Play you for it?” Dean suggested with a smile, already closing a fist.

Sam rolled his eyes and reached for you, pulling you close against his warm chest. “Why don’t we just assume you did scissors twice and I won, OK?”

Dean sighed but pulled up the blanket, draping it carefully over the three of you. “Yeah, yeah...I know. Always with the scissors.”

2019 Forever Tags:

@akshi8278 @amanda-teaches @arses21434 @because-imma-lady-assface @burningcoffeetimetravel @colagirl5 @cosicas-cuquis @courtney-elizabeth-winchester @covered-byroses @crashdevlin @dean-winchesters-bacon @deansenwackles @deansgirl215 @deanwinchesterwitch @dubuforeveralone @ellen-reincarnated1967 @emilyshurley @emptywithout @emoryhemsworth @ericaprice2008 @eternal-elir @feelmyroarrrr @flamencodiva @focusonspn @gayspacenerd @hazeleyesstolemyheart @hawaiianohana15 @herbologystudent252 @hobby27 @ilsawasanacrobat @jayankles @justcallmeasmodeus​ @katymacsupernatural @lastactiontricia @maddiepants @mariekoukie6661 @meganwinchester1999 @missjenniferb @mjdoc90 @mrswhozeewhatsis @our-jensen-ackles-love  @peridot-rose @pisces-cutie @risingphoenix761 @roonyxx @roxyspearing @sandlee44 @sculptorofbeginnings @spn-dean-and-sam-winchester @supernaturaldean67 @supernatural-took-me-over @tabrown2021 @thehardcoveraddict @tmiships4life @vampiratehuntressthings @wegoddessofhell @winchesterprincessbride @winchesterxfamilybusiness

[thoughtslikeaminefield]

Where Is My Shiny Gun?

PART THREE

Summary: Sam finds himself in a quandary when he realizes he has feelings for Donna by way of the obvious mutual attraction between her and Dean.

Pairing: Dean x Dona + Sam

Warnings: explicit, Wincest adjacent, dirty talk, voyeurism

Word Count: 1232

part 1 | part 2 | part 3 | part 4 | part 5

“Tell us what you want,” Dean says in between kisses. “And what you don’t want.”

“You askin’ me?” Donna replies in a low purr. “Or Sam?”

Dean smiles again, never parting too far with her lush lips. “Yeah, you,” he answers. “We need some boundaries to start. Then Sammy can…” Dean drags his lips over her jaw to the side of her face closest to Sam and looks him in the eye. “Give us some direction.”

Sam’s breath catches in his throat at Donna’s implication and the offer Dean’s making. Not only does he get to watch, but he can make requests. 

Jesus.

“Hmm,” Donna starts. “I sure like kissin’ you,” she says, draping her arms over his shoulders and toying with the short hairs at the nape of his neck.

“Maybe I should kiss you all over then,” Dean says, placing wet, intentional kisses across her delicate collarbones. “All the way down.”

The imagery of Dean buried face first in Donna’s cunt makes Sam groan out loud.

Donna grins bright and arches her neck, head back on a sigh, eyes closed. “Meh, I’ve never really enjoyed the oral experience,” she says before rolling her head to the side then back upright to look at Sam. “I like penetration.” A small, wicked smile twists her kiss-swollen lips.

“Well, darlin’,” Dean says, pushing her sweatshirt up and over her head to reveal a thin, white tank top. “You’ve never experienced my oral.” He mouths at her already tight nipples to make the fabric wet and Sam can’t get enough of the way she squirms and groans in his brother’s lap. 

“Ya see,” Dean continues. “Eatin’ pussy’s like eatin’ pie.” He’s made her tank top entirely see-through where her nipples are concerned. Sam licks his lips and grips his hard cock tight over the denim fabric.

“And you know how I love pie,” Dean says, gripping Donna’s broad hips and moving to stand. She squeals a little, wraps her legs around him and holds on tight as he walks three paces to the bed, lays her there on her back and kneels on the floor between her legs. “Can I?” he asks, playfully, blinking innocently and he traces the patterns on the knees of her yoga pants.

Donna’s sprawled on her back, arms flung wide, already looking so satisfied, her hair fanned around her head. She rises to her elbows then reaches to cup Dean’s jaw and he leans into it. “OK, cowboy,” she says. “Show me whatcha got.”

Dean’s grin is all mischief as he drags Donna’s yoga pants over her hips. Sam moves to get a better look. “How wet is she?” Sam asks his brother as he pops the button of his jeans. “God, I can smell her from here.”

Dean chuckles quietly, tossing Donna’s pants over his shoulder then dragging her ass to the edge of the bed by her knees. He drapes them over his shoulders and dips in to place a kiss to her center.

Donna gasps. “Dean!” She bucks instinctually into his face.

“Oh, dude,” Dean groans, bringing a hand up and pushing his thick middle finger inside her. “Sooo wet.” He wraps an arm around one of her thighs to keep her steady but for tiny pushes of her hips onto his finger and face. “Gonna fuck my hand and mouth, D? Hmm?” He takes her in his mouth full and moans.

“Shit,” Sam whispers, gripping his bared cock in his hot hand. He can hear how wet she is – hear the squelching noises as she grinds into Dean’s face. “Get her top off, man, I wanna see her.”

Dean laughs, and Donna sits all the way up long enough to pull her tank top over her head. “Better?” she asks, tossing Sam her shirt and a look as she settles back on her elbows.

Sam catches the garment with one hand and smirks. “Much,” he answers, holding the piece up to his nose, inhaling her scent - clean sweat and honey - before setting the top aside and skimming his gaze over her full breasts. “You’re gorgeous.”

Sam works his length as he watches Dean bob between Donna’s open thighs. Donna lays back again, cups her breasts and moans in approval. “Hooo,” she breathes. “You weren’t kiddin’. Wow.” She pulls at her nipples and stares hard at the ceiling then drags her gaze to Sam. “He’s really good at this, Sam.”

She’s out of breath and so is Sam, but they’re both smiling. “Tell me what he’s doing,” Sam says, slowing his thrusts into his hand to drag it out. Just watching her breasts bounce with Dean’s movements is enough to make him come; he wants this to last.

“He’s…” Donna breathes heavy and hard. “He’s two fingers deep, and holy moly he knows how to find that spot.” She looks down at Dean. “Your mouth… his mouth is so hot right on my-” Donna hisses and squeezes her eyes shut. “Ah!”

Her back arches off the bed and Sam has to slow his breathing, take his hand away from himself, and close his eyes for a moment in order not to come with her. He listens to her panting, to Dean chuckling as he moves up her body. “I got mad skills, baby doll,” Dean says, and Sam rolls his eyes open.

“Dude,” Sam scolds, secretly thankful for the respite of cheeseball to keep his orgasm at bay.

Donna’s giggling and grinning wide, a sheen of sweat making her sun-bronzed skin shimmer in the low light, as she watches Dean stand and disrobe. Dean smirks and licks his lips, Donna bites her own bottom lip and scoots backward toward the head of the bed, and Sam’s cock jumps for his attention.

He palms himself again as Dean crawls on hands and knees over Donna, hovers above her, dipping in to kiss her long and slow. Dean’s jaw works hard. His kisses look so focused yet languid, deep. Donna brings her knees up along his thighs, welcoming him in.

Dean breaks the kiss long enough to say, “What’s next, Sammy?” before setting back to licking into Donna’s mouth, gently sucking her curved top lip between his own.

“Touch him, Donna,” Sam says, pushes his legs open wide, cupping his balls and stroking his cock, pressing down. “You want to, right?”

Donna nods, deepening the kiss, running her hands up Dean’s chest and shoulders, pushes her fingers into his hair. The sounds she’s making are quiet but so pretty. Sam squeezes himself hard and starts to pump again.

“You two…” Donna breathes, letting Dean kiss her wherever he wants. “Ya know I couldn’t do this with anyone but you two.” Her hands are in Dean’s hair, but she’s looking at Sam.

Sam takes in the honesty and openness there. He realizes that he and Dean couldn’t do this exact thing with anyone else but her either. “I think we feel the same way,” he says. “Dean?”

“Mhmm,” Dean answers. “Nobody else but you, D-Train.” He reaches for his bag on the floor next to the bed and produces a condom. “You know, Sammy and me – we’ve only ever been in the same room fucking once, and we were hammered.” He laughs as he rips the condom open. “And young.” He glances at Sam and they lock eyes. “But this is different, Donna,” he says. “You’re different.”

Dean rolls the condom on and Sam openly watches with interest, his desire flaming higher. “Fuck her good, man,” Sam says, his breath shaking.

Then Dean stretches out over her, braces a forearm beside her head and plays with her hair as he guides himself inside her. “Oh, I plan on it, little brother,” he says, kissing her again as he thrusts all the way to the hilt.

Part Four

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If you like what you’ve read, please let me know and/or buy me a coffee!

MJ's Fanfiction Masterlist

[otis82014]

Warning Rant: long and bitter which I brought upon myself by seeking out certain mean spirited blogs that I used to enjoy.

I try to avoid some odd fandom wingnuts, but every once in awhile, I take a peek. I looked at a few supposed bi bros and Wincest blogs(I appreciate them understanding ships don't need to go canon) and man are they rabid about last night's episode. Well they are mad about most things actually, but they are actually cannibalizing themselves now.

For one, they actually as a whole don't like Dean or Jensen. They begrudge him every scene (despite their guy getting to be the big , squeaky clean hero all the time) even with random side characters, that a 1.5 minute screen time went to Jensen singing last week, Jensen's beer co tap was visible in one of the Michael episodes last season, his wife (CW alum herself) being on the show for a bit. Last night's source of rage:

-That Dean is speaking to Cas: there's a storyline to Purgatory. Now, most common sense people know it doesn't mean canon Destiel but this group is sooooo pissed that it's happening b/c it gives the crazies something to feed on. They are right, they will feed. But those guys live on empty air, what's the difference? They have a job to do, the silent treatment won't due when the big bad is God. Story wise Purgatory is a good way for them to bury the hatchett and Cas to earn redemption and die well and permanently.

-Sam and Eileen going off to hunt vamps. Why ? I don't know which sentiment is stronger 1. Saileen makes destihellers happy or 2. Dean getting finally get to make the big sacrifice & endgame Sam Eileen. 3.Or ,and this is stretch b/c most of them seem to dislike Dean, the implication the boys won't be together in the end.

This isn't the source of their rage but a sign of their " full of shittedness": Talking about Jake Abell's perfomance as Michael (which, as far as I can tell, was Michael had scowly eyebrows and Adam didn't) as if Daniel Day Lewis had come out of retirement. Of course that's was merely a transition to start shitting on Jensen's turn as Michael (Self appointed James Lipton spouting some incoherent nonsense about the hat, & on more than one occasion) . Lol, there was probably more but who cares?

Of course they HATE j2 now, mostly Jensen because of course Jensen's the only one who has done anything in poor taste. He busts his ass supporting his side hustles. There was that time he got too drunk and punched a bunch of people . No wait, that's not right, it was something about his wife using botox . J2 should have just walked off the job when the writers showed them this pandering drivel. . . Because that's the way jobs and contracts work: You walk on out on them as easily as you bang out a tumblr rant.

I get it, I've not been happy with the writing for years . They've made Dean seem ooc dumb & ooc mean at times (yes, ooc I don't think Dean is abusive to either Sam or Cas) and; in a concerted effort to remove ALL of his challenging characteristics, Sam has been so boring the last few years , that I'm surprised side characters don't accidentally water him.

To sum up: I read where I shouldn't. Saw bitter people who hate Dean/Jensen and care more about winning fandom battles than the story ending well and had to have my own mean rant b/c I'm petty like that.

[zatanna-against-hate]

It’s not even canon tho. To start it was a one-sided confession. You could make the argument that it isn’t even romantic love, but I will say going by the script the implication is that it’s romantic as it states Dean can’t reciprocate Castiel’s feelings. Had his feelings been platonic or familial, I think Dean would have reciprocated it.

That said, I actually feel bad for Cas since he loved someone who could never love him back the same way. Hell, he even said that himself in that scene. So no it isn’t canon, it’s canonically one-sided love but the ship itself isn’t canon.

Look I get having shipping goggles on too tight but come on. It’s nice you got a one-sided love confession, it’s certainly more than Wincest will get in the romance department, but the show has always been about Dean and Sam, not Dean and Castiel. The love Sam and Dean have for each other is the core of the story. The sad fact is Castiel fell in love with a man who, in essence, was already “taken”. And he knows it. It’s tragic, for Cas, but it’s true. It’s like falling for someone who is already married, which Sam and Dean practically are. Castiel was, unfortunately for him, the “other woman”. Any time Dean was on the outs with Sam, he was with Cas. Like when a man is fighting with his wife and goes to hang out with his side chick, and that side chick is basically being led on - intentionally or not.

So yeah I feel bad for Cas because even if it wasn’t in a romantic context Dean did basically lead him on into thinking they were closer than they actually were. Meanwhile Cas, well, he isn’t stupid or blind - he knows Sam is the only one Dean cares for when push comes to shove. Yet he also loves Sam, not like he loves Dean but still. Cas is like the “other woman” who has no intention of being a home wrecker, who genuinely loves the person and wants them to be happy, even if that happiness isn’t with them.

At least that’s the impression I got. I might have been projecting a bit.

Point is, it isn’t canon.

[luninosity]

I'm sorry but I've been a follower of yours blog for a few months I think even a year now and as much as I respect you as a writer and love how you write for characters and settings I'm a little disturbed by going in your search engine of finding out that you are a wincest fan? Do you still support wincest? Or was that just a thing in the past you done. It makes me kinda uncomfortable now reading your stories and know that my fav writer liked incest

Okay, gosh, let’s unpack this! There’re at least two questions, and one very big and somewhat concerning assumption about the nature of fanfic, here. So let’s start with that…

First - and I’m not saying this assumption’s your fault, especially if you are a Younger Fandom Person; this was much more widely understood even, oh, about five years ago, I think - let’s be very clear: reading or writing something in fanfic does not equate to approving of that thing in real life. Got it? Let’s say it again:

Reading or writing something in fanfic does not equate to approving of that thing in real life.

Think of all the fanfic tropes that deal with non-con, or dubious consent, or extreme kink, or kidnapping, or torture scenes, or whatever else you’re thinking about now that I’ve brought it up. People read and write fic for all sorts of reasons - to explore and interrogate reactions to trauma or desire, to think about the various sides and desires of characters (and by implication all of humanity), to personally cope with situations that may’ve happened, to reclaim pleasure in a safe fictional space, to explore a “what if” in a safe fictional space - you can never really know someone’s reason for writing a fic unless they flat-out tell you, and even then that’s just what they choose to disclose. (I’ve written non-con, to pick an example - I’ve certainly written it in at least one RPF story, and I obviously don’t wish that upon the actor in question in real life! I’ve also written kidnapping and torture scenes! I’m planning to write a sex pollen Evanstan fic, the sequel to the witch!Seb and temporarily-hexed-into-a-puppy!Chris fic! Which hopefully will be a little bit funny and a little bit hot and decadent, and will also deal with questions of consent and the first time they have sex in this relationship and some related Big Themes in a safe and playful context, but which, again, I would never want to see actually happen to them in real life - that’d be genuinely horrific! Separation of fiction and reality, right? And also Seb’s not a witch, as far as we know! And Chris Evans doesn’t randomly turn into a puppy!) (Well, maybe that last one… :-p) (Kidding, kidding…)

So! Okay, we’re all clear on that? Good! Moving on to the question part, which is really two questions: did I write Wincest, and is it something I still do?

To the second, because that’s a shorter answer: no, I don’t write any SPN-related fic anymore, and haven’t for a few years. Mostly it’s out of sheer disillusionment with the show overall - I still have a soft spot for Sam and Dean, and for Jared and Jensen, and I still watch the show (it’s research; I’ve gotten a couple of academic articles out of it), and I might still occasionally reblog a cute pic or two or react to a massive plot development. But I’m not really invested emotionally anymore, and I have to be, in order to write fic of any type. So don’t be expecting any SPN fic of any type, Wincest or Dean/Castiel (honestly, unpopular opinion time - and this is my personal opinion, no reflection on anyone who feels differently: I don’t actually like Castiel as a character…) or, heck, I don’t know, John Winchester/Bobby Singer, none of that, to show up on this blog, at least nothing new. :-p

To the first: yes, I wrote…two? three? I forget? Sam/Dean fics, like maybe ten or so (has it been that long?! when was season four? that was around when I posted the first one) years ago; the first one was by request, and then I wrote a couple more because that one opened the floodgates, kind of, and I had a couple of ideas. I also wrote, oh, two or three J2 RPF fics. I was still learning how to be a writer and they probably aren’t very good, honestly. The context for this was right around seasons 3-5 - and, frankly, Sam and Dean were presented as the most important people to each other, co-dependent (hell, the show even said, as I recall, “erotically” co-dependent), Sam had demon blood things going on anyway, and they were obviously the people without whom each other’s lives would not be complete (I’d argue that this dynamic has shifted, but that’s a whole new post), and that invited exploration of this kind of relationship, with the heightened and (arguably, but academics have persistently noted this in the show’s gaze and use of narrative tropes, particularly in early seasons; there’s been scholarly work on this) passionately charged intensity. (Again, see above, about exploring narratives and spaces in fiction that one would not condone in real life!)

So, am I embarrassed about it? Nah, or only insofar as the writing’s not great and I totally did things like the Bathroom Revelation Cliche, and so on. It’s part of my fandom history, and it’s fanfic, not real life, with all the context surrounding that fictional relationship. (Better fic writers than me have spent a lot of time explaining why Sam/Dean is worth exploring - there’s some brilliant meta on that, or there used to be, back on LJ; I don’t have any good links anymore unfortunately - I’m sure you can go and find them if you want to look into fandom history and context and culture, as we should all probably do from time to time!) But do I write that pairing anymore? Nah, though not because I’ve decided it’s Morally Wrong or whatever; no, I’m just out of room to care, or to care deeply enough to be inspired to create, anyway.

Hope that answers that!

[queerfables]

Response to @missjackil comments here (reblogs removed for length):

Yeah, like I said, Sam and Dean didn't really change; their relationship always has romantic undertones! Canonically, I'd describe their relationship as queerplatonic - they're not romantically or sexually involved but they're committed to each other as life partners and they put each other above everything else in their lives. That dynamic is the heart of the show and it obviously lends itself to a romantic interpretation. But the way the show frames their dynamic, the lens they suggest we view it through, that changes as the show moves on.

In the early seasons, the show is set up to emphasise their weird intimacy. They're sharing space constantly, sitting side by side in the impala, sleeping side by side in shared motel rooms. They move into the bunker and instead of the closed confines of a car they have room upon cavernous room to expand into. Instead of sleeping side by side, they each have a bedroom to make into a space of their own. Yes, they live together in a stable location now, but it's design and it's history says "monster hunting HQ" not "home". And the stability of their living space means they're no longer the one constant in each other's lives.

None of this is a bad thing! None of it detracts from how shippable Sam and Dean are. It correlates to a healthier dynamic blossoming between them, which I love. But it reflects canon moving away from explicitly alluding to their dynamic as intense in a potentially incestuous way ("Bonnie to your Clyde" "psychotically, irrationally, erotically codependent") and instead framing their relationship as more normal and fraternal. We still get really romantic lines like "it's always been you and me" or even Jody saying "You and Dean? That's something special, don't you think?" (I still think this line is highly underrated in terms of completely unhinged wincest weirdness) but they're typically ambiguous things, things that can be interpreted without the incestuous implications. It's not Sam and Dean being mistaken for a couple, being compared to romantic couples, or outright being described as sexually intertwined. "Erotically codependent" forces the audience to engage with an incestuous reading of Sam and Dean's relationship; "it's always been you and me" allows the audience to engage with an incestuous reading while also allowing for a more platonic interpretation. This is all I mean when I say that they're not framed so incestuously. It's not that they're less shippable later on but that the ways they're weird about each other are not positioned front and centre by the narrative.

Also, as an aside, I think to a significant extent when later seasons blur the boundaries on Sam and Dean's relationship in ways suggestive of sex and romance, they bring back the gothic vibes of the early seasons. I mean, Dean swearing himself to Sam in the dark of an abandoned church, binding Sam's bleeding hand, carrying him out under a night sky lit by angels falling like an asteroid shower - that's peak gothic romance right there. In a lot of cases, Dean and Sam being Weird about each other in a more explicit way is emphasised by a return to the show's gothic horror roots.

Early seasons of Supernatural were a lot heavier on the incestuous subtext than later seasons. I don’t mean that Sam and Dean’s relationship changed, exactly, but the framing of it shifted. They were put into fewer situations where the lines between familial and romantic or sexual got blurred. But I don’t think this change was because anyone was concerned about how Sam and Dean’s relationship was being perceived. I think it was because the show pivoted it’s genre from gothic horror to paranormal fantasy.

Horror is all about transgression, and thrives in the space where what fascinates us and what repels us overlap. Gothic horror especially is grounded in melodrama and the taboo, and incest is a common theme. But the incestuous elements were never really about Sam and Dean’s literal relationship, it was about the way that relationship felt - intense, alluring, profane.

As a horror story, Supernatural follows long established genre conventions when it threatens to dissolve the already weak boundaries in Sam and Dean’s relationship. This works because it’s taboo. That subtext is supposed to make us kind of uncomfortable. Maybe we don’t recognise exactly what the subtext is implying and don’t understand where the discomfort is coming from, but it evokes a visceral reaction anyway. And sometimes that reaction is complicated, because what’s taboo can be disgusting or shameful or terrifying, but it can also be compelling or erotic or cathartic. Horror exists to explore these kinds of contradictions and to create a powerful emotional experience. The ambiguity of Sam and Dean’s relationship plays into that.

Paranormal fantasy, on the other hand, has a slightly younger audience and the emotions it engages most are excitement and wonder. The kind of fear it uses is less often creeping dread and more an immediate thrill: think walking down a dark hallway vs a hand-to-hand fight. It’s morality is supposed to be cleaner. It’s characters have clear roles and easily defined relationships. So Sam and Dean can still sacrifice themselves for each other, but it’s no longer framed as selfish or traumatic for the one left behind; the act becomes heroic instead. And when Dean murders the lover that Sam lied to him about, it’s pragmatic and distant (Amy) rather than passionate and steeped in possessive jealousy (Ruby).

I love both genres but I think Supernatural was better as gothic horror. Later on, though it still plays with gothic elements sometimes, it also tries to impose clarity onto something that was intended to question more than it answered. To me, Sam and Dean were more interesting when the world of Supernatural leaned into the ambiguity and melodrama.