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Episode 85 Transcript: I Need You Like I Need A New Employee

[intro guitar music]

G: Hello, it's Grey.

C: Hello, it's Crystal.

G: And this is Busty Asian Beauties, a Supernatural commentary podcast where I, someone who has seen the show several times...

C: And I, someone who only knows about Supernatural through social media, discuss every single episode of the show from start to finish. Also, we are both Asian.

G: Both Asian! For this episode, we will be discussing Season 5, Episode 3: "Free to Be You and Me," written by Jeremy Carver, directed by J. Miller Tobin. I forgot that this is a Jeremy Carver, although I assume that flies. Or does it? What are Jeremy Carver's other episodes?

C: I just don't really have a grasp on what Jeremy Carver is like as a writer. There's no real thoroughline. [G: That's true.] Or is it "throughline"? It's probably throughline. There's no real throughline.

G: He did "In the Beginning." [C: He did "In the Beginning."] There is like, a similar vibe, I feel to "In the Beginning" with this one. I feel like there's like, a connection you can make between the two, [laughs] mostly because Cas was in the car in that one also, and then disappears. [laughs] That's actually my only-

C: Yeah, is the connection- It's like, there were moments here where I was like, "Didn't the Supernatural people get told off that Cas sitting on Dean's bed in 4.03 was too gay? Like, is nothing here like, pinging the 'don't let Cas sit on Dean's bed' radar for whoever is in charge of making sure shows aren't gay?"

G: It is crazy that Cas is gay. [C laughs]

C: Yeah, and homophobic, to me. Heart.

G: Heart emoji, even. He also wrote "The Rapture," so that's a pretty- maybe not Cas, but Cas-adjacent/heavy episode.

C: Yeah. And I mean, I guess he brings back the whole, like, "Sam knows not to make connections with people anymore" thing which was an important part of "The Rapture" also.

G: [laughing] Oh, yeah, Sam also is in this episode.

C: Yeah. I'd say he has a more important plot than Dean does, I think.

G: [laughing] Yeah, but, you know, the thing is like, this episode has issues. But the whole time, I was just like, "Oh, Cas is here!" [laughs]

C: That's true. He was there the whole time. Not the whole time, though. Like, half the time.

G: No, but like, the thing is, this is also like, I think, the most time we've spent with Cas [C: Yes, yes it is.] after "On the Head of a Pin." But like, "On the Head of a Pin" is just a completely different vibe, of course. Like, it's very serious, very like, you know, plotty. [C: Yeah.] And this one, the Cas and Dean stuff serves a plot purpose, but also like, not really. The real plotty shit like, happens with Sam. And so, I don't know. This is like, the first time we're hanging out with Cas, you know? [C: Yeah, it is.] And it's important to me. [laughs] I keep on saying- I feel like every single episode [C: You say that.], I'm like, "It's Supernatural now! It's Supernatural!" That, like, "We're watching Supernatural!" But this is like, we're watching Supernatural. [laughs]

C: There's no wrinkles on any of these men's faces yet. So it's not really Supernatural yet to me.

G: Yeah, but it's Supernatural to me. [C laughs] [C: Well, good.] I love Cas. You know how I was like, "It's Team Free Will, and Cas is here! This is Cas! This is our Cas now!" [laughs] And I feel like [laughing] this is really the beginning of Team Free Will.

C: You say that all the time! [laughs] [G: I know!] It's not Team Free Will! Sam's not there!

G: [laughing] But Cas has free will, and that's the whole point! [both laugh] [C: Uh-huh. Yeah.] I love Cas so much.

C: When do they even say the words "Team Free Will"? Like, [laughing] it's not Team Free Will until they say the words "Team Free Will."

G: When Cas comes back from like, going back in time, and he's sick about it. The Anna one.

C: Huh. That's Season 6 or Season 5? [G: No, Season 5.] Oh, okay, "Song Remains the Same." Alright.

G: Yeah, "Song Remains the Same," Cas comes back, he's like, vomiting blood or whatever. I don't know. Maybe he's just sick, and then he passes out, and they lay him on the bed, and Dean looks at Sam and goes, "Well, here we are." And he says something- Like, he does a description for each one of them, and then he goes, "Team Free Will."

C: Well, it's not Team Free Will until they say that it's Team Free Will.

G: I keep on saying, "It's Team Free Will!" and you're like, "Sam is not even here," but like, in that one, Cas is passed out when Dean says it, so Cas may as well not be here. Sad!

C: True. Good point. He wasn't mentally there. It will never be Team Free Will, I suppose. [G laughs] Sad!

G: Well, until we get to 2.0. Then that's, everybody's awake when [both laugh] Dean says, "Team Free Will 2.0."

C: Alright, there we go. [G: There we go.] It'll be Team Free Will in Season, what? 14?

G: 13. Well, "Free to Be You and Me." What did you know about this one? I'm assuming all of it.

C: Well, I mean, I don't know Sam's half that well. [G: That's true.] What I have down is that Cas and Dean go on a little date because they think it's their last night alive, and Cas hasn't fucked, so Dean says Bert and Ernie are gay, then takes him to a brothel, but he gets chased out because he tells Chastity that her dad didn't leave because of her, he left because he hated his job at the post office, and they laugh, and Dean says he hasn't laughed like that in a long time, and also fuck Sam forever, and then Cas disappears in the car, heart, I think. [G: Yeah.] [G laughs] And then I have that they're trying to trap Raphael in a holy fire circle, and there's lightning wings, and it's cool. And then I have "Sam's fighting demons on a bar, idk," but he was not fighting demons in a bar. He was fighting human beings who sucked a lot. [G: Yeah, exactly.] So that's what I knew.

G: You know when Dean was going [C: Oh, "Demons like drink"?]- when Cas was going, "Demons." And Dean was like, "Oh, we all have our demons. That's how it is." [both laugh] Those are the demons that Sam was fighting in the bar.

C: Exactly. And not bisexuality.

G: Exactly. Sam has never fought bisexuality.

C: Yeah. Sam welcomes bisexuality with open arms.

G: Exactly. "Then" sequence.

C: [laughing] The editing on this thing? Like, you're not an AMV editor. Stop trying to editorialize like this. What are these fades? What are these voiceovers? Who are you? [G laughs]

G: Yeah. I mean, we keep on saying, like, "It's supposed to be AMVs." but like, [C: But no.] honestly, maybe this is the reason why AMV is so popular in Supernatural. [C: Huh.] It's because of these damn "Then" sequences.

C: Maybe so. This one's the most AMV of all, though. Because I feel like most "Then" sequences are just trying to summarize, but this one like, keeps trying to make points. [G: Points, yeah.] And like, shut up. Like, you can only do that with the undertone of "Bubblegum Bitch" playing on a Tumblr post. [G: Yeah.] Like, I don't know what you're trying to do.

G: Jess is brought up here, and, obviously. For obvious reasons. But it is a bit sur- I knew that Jess is gonna be in this episode. I mean, "Jess," quote-unquote. But like, it is surprising to see again, her in the "Then" sequence. It's been a long time.

C: Yeah. I think they just assumed you would forget who she was or what her face looks like.

G: Well, maybe you will if this is, you know, normal TV show time that you're watching it.

C: I think the most editorializing moment is when Sam says, "I just wish I could save people, like I used to," but like, that's a voiceover over his eyes turning black in 4.22 [G: Yeah.], so like, it's like the editor looking into your face and being like, "Sam's lying and evil!" which, I don't think that's true. I think he does wish he could save people like he used to.

G: I remember when I made my "Your Dog" AMV, the most important AMV in all of Supernatural history [C: Yeah.], somebody put in the tags, "You can really make any point [both laugh] in a Supernatural AMV." [C laughing] And I thought that was so funny.

C: Well, that's rude! Just vaguepost about it like the rest of us.

G: Well, I'm laying down my evidence. I'm laying down my evidence in a creative manner. [C: Exactly.] And this is, yeah. You can literally make any point in a Supernatural AMV, and apparently, also in a Supernatural "Then" sequence.

C: Yeah, they bother keeping in Dean saying, "Try New Mexico. I hear he's on a tortilla." about God, which I think is such a nothing line. Like, every "Then" sequence, they just shove in a nothing line from Dean. It's like, I get it. You want to fuck him. But like, I don't. [G laughs] Like, get him out of my face!

G: [laughing] Is that also how you feel about Cas? [C: About who?] You're like, "Okay, Cas, we get it. You want to fuck Dean [both laugh], but like, why do we have to deal with him all the time?"

C: That's true. It's true. I do think about that. But okay, no. Remember how that thing ends with Sam saying, "Maybe it's best we just go our separate ways," but it's a voiceover over him walking towards the Impala to get his backpack, but instead, it just looks like he's leaving Dean and stealing the Impala, [both laugh] which I think is great. And they have Dean's response of, "Well, I think you're right," but it's ADR-ed over like, Dean, looking down, like, not moving his mouth at all, completely silent, in the exact same scene, but like, not the part where he says the sentence. Like, I think you just show the clip of him saying the sentence. What was that?

G: Noo! It's supposed to set the mood. [C laughs] It's like, well, Dean thinks he is right, but also, there is some conflicting feelings about that, you know, which is the point that they're trying to make at the beginning of this episode.

C: I just- As an AMV editor, I would not put a voiceover over a scene where, like, [G, laughing: The same thing is happening, yeah.] the character isn't talking, but their face is the only thing in frame. Like, it's a confusing thing to do.

G: [laughs] Well, this is why you are an AMV maker and not a "Then" sequence creator for Supernatural, which is like an AMV. [laughing] An AMV maker is more honorable, though.

C: Yeah, my last bullet point on this is "You will never be 'Hard Times' Aziraphale/Crowley AMV," [both laugh] so.

G: You will never be "Maps" Aziraphale/Crowley AMV. [C: You will never be "Maps" Aziraphale/Crowley AMV.] Well, yeah.

C: So, anyway. Whoever edited that, like, no. [laughs]

C: So now we're to the opening scene, which shows Sam in the Great Plains Motel, which we learn later he's been at for a whole week. And I guess that the notable thing is that Sam is shirtless, which I think is like, a pretty nice way to show that he's like, not hunting anymore. [G: Because he doesn't need to like, get up immediately and stuff?] Yeah, like, he doesn't need to have his shoes on and all his clothes on, like, he doesn't have to be ready to get up and fight something. Like, he is just feeling comfortable

G: He doesn't need to sleep above the blanket. Like, he can be comfycozy underneath.

C: Yeah, exactly! He can be so comfycozy. And-

G: Also, we see the anti-possession tattoo, which I think is fun, because this is the episode where it's like, Lucifer is trying to tell him like, "I'm gonna possess you, basically."

C: Yeah, I think in the last scene where Lucifer is saying that, like, [G: It's covered up. Yeah, he's put on a shirt.] Sam's shirt is open. [G: Really?] But his shirt collar is open enough that you can see like, the rays of the sun poking out. Like, the edges of it.

G: Oh, that's fun, yeah. [G: Yeah.] I don't really quite understand the timeline of this. So like, this is the first one. [C: It's been a week.] No, no, no, this happens, right? [C: Yeah.] Later on, the thing with Jess and turning into Lucifer, this is after this? That's after this.

C: Yeah, like, he has this dream today. Then he goes through all that shit. And then- Okay, him getting the job as a busboy was a week ago, but we're back to present day once he's like, talking to his co-worker and then goes through everything.

G: No no no. [C: Yeah.?] So what is the situation? Like, can you give me a timeline? He arrives at the bar and starts working...

C: Okay, yeah. Sam and Dean separate. Sam hitchhikes to a bar and starts working as a busboy. He has a week where things are normal besides his overly-insistent coworker, [G: Who is so annoying, yeah.] who keeps trying to go to dinner with him. He has a normal week. He has this dream about Jess. Then he goes through all the stuff with the other hunters. Then he goes back to the motel, and he has his second dream about Jess where she transforms into Lucifer.

G: How do you know? How do you know that that's a week after? How did you know he had a normal week before?

C: The week ago thing was- 'cause we had a montage!

G: It's just that? It's just the week?

C: Yeah, that was the week.

G: I thought it was like, his first day of the week. [laughs]

C: Dean did a whole vampire hunt. No, Dean did an entire vampire hunt! [G: Well, you can do a vampire hunt in a day!] That takes like, several days. Well, no, I think after the splash screen, we're back up to like, [both] modern day. Yeah, like, the Cas and Dean things are happening at the same time as the Sam thing.

G: Huh, alright. [C: Well.] I didn't understand that, and I was so confused. Was it like, after all that, Sam has this dream of Jess, and then he wakes up in the morning, and he now has his shirt on, and he's kissing Jess good morning? Like, what's happening? I couldn't understand it.

C: Oh, yeah, no, these are- there was like, a day at least, between those dreams.

G: Was it like, every single night after the first dream, he just keeps on dreaming of Jess again and again? Because that's what I imagine happened, because, like, the first dream-

C: No, we just see- He has two total dreams, and they happen one day after the other, and the first one is like, yesterday, and then the last one we see is like, today.

G: Well, the first one happens yesterday, and then the stuff with the demon blood happens, and then it's today. [C: Yeah.] [both laugh] [C: Are we good?] Okay. How did you figure this out?

C: I didn't know it was something that one would be confused about.

G: I was so confused! I couldn't understand anything about the timeline.

C: The montage spans an entire week!

G: But like, did they say that?

C: No, but like, there's a splash screen, and now we're back to like, stuff not being a montage.

G: But yeah, you could assume that it's still the continuation of the week!

C: Why would it be, though?

G: Because the montage ends, right? And Dean just looks over to the seat, and he's done, and then he's in the motel room, and it's like, well, we could still be in the week before.

C: No, like, it just happened over the week. [G laughs]

G: I mean, I trust you and I believe you. I'm just really confused is how me, if I'm watching it, I'm supposed to get that.

C: I mean, I got it, and I watched it with Danica, and Danica got it. [G laughs] So like, I think this may be a New York Times Connections kind of issue. [both laugh] Anyway, so Jess appears in his dream, and she is next him on the bed, lying on her side. And she goes, "Hey, baby. I missed you." [G: Aw.] And Sam calls her Jessica, [G: Yeah.] and he goes, "I'm dreaming." With Lucifer and Nick, he said, like, "Oh, like, this is a dream. But that doesn't mean it's not real." But here, Jess just says like, "Or you're not. What's the difference? I'm here." And, you know, they have like, a conversation where Sam's like, sad, and he misses her. Oh, also, obviously, she's wearing a white nightgown. Like, duh.

G: What even is the point? I mean, I know the point. The point is, this is Supernatural. [C laughs] But, I don't know. Like, when Sam thinks of Jess, does he conceptualize her in a white nightgown?

C: I don't- Well, yes, 'cause in "Bloody Mary," yes. [G: Oh, yeah. And also standing in that-] That is what she was wearing on the ceiling [G: When she died.] when she got killed.

G: Did she wear nightgowns, usually? She was in that Smurf shirt. [C: No, she usually was in that Smurf shirt. Yeah.] She was woken up, so that was what she was wearing to sleep, so.

C: Yeah, like, I guess... yeah. I guess she would have had to be forcibly undressed and redressed, which is a bad thing to think about. But demon was sent to do that was probably told to keep the aesthetic exactly the same as Mary's death, so that had to happen beforehand.

G: One thing about the demons is they have panache. [laughs] They were like, "We have a vision for the aesthetic [C laughs], and we will push through it."

C: Yeah. So Sam's sad, and he's saying how he misses her. And then Jess starts saying, like, well, just stuff that Jess wouldn't say because it's stuff that she didn't know about Sam's life because she didn't even know he had a brother. Like, Sam was gonna pro- do you ever think about how Sam was gonna propose, and he was not gonna tell her at any point that he even had a brother? Like, not even like, hunting. Just like, he wouldn't even tell her that he had a brother. [G: Yeah, well.] And the conversation is that, first, she says that he's running away, like he did to Stanford. And Sam says that "It's different now, because last time, I wanted to be normal. This time, I know I'm a freak." [G: Hell yeah!] And Jess repeats the thing about how like,"Ooh, like, even at Stanford, you knew that there was something dark inside of you." And then she says that that's what got her killed, maybe. And Sam's hurt at this, and he goes like, "No." And then Jess says, "I was dead from the moment we said hello," [G makes sad sound] which is a pretty famous line for the Samgirlies and such. [G: Yeah.] And it is true, because Supernatural loves to fridge, and they did create her to be fridged, so RIP to her about that.And then she says that "You can't run from yourself. Why are you running now?" And that she's actually trying to protect Sam, and that the past is going to catch up to him like it always does. [G: Yeah.] And that means that people are going to die, especially the people closest to him. And Sam says his thing about how, like, "Oh, don't worry, because I won't make that mistake again." And Jess says that things "Are never gonna change with you, #evah." And I don't- like, Jess- This is not like, Jess-like. [G: Of course, yeah.] I don't see how Sam- Sam still calls her Jess, like, later in, like, the second dream, and by then, I would've figured out that something's up.

G: Well, first of all, we don't really know what Jess is like. We have her for one episode. We don't get any flashbacks. We only have Sam's conception of her and Dean's conception of her in the djinn dream, so.

C: Yeah, in the djinn episode. Well, the thing is, we have another thing about Jess, which is that in 4.21 young Sam says like, "Do you think Jess would have wanted this for you?" regarding the demon blood and everything. And in that iteration, it seemed like Jess would want Sam to be [both] normal. [G: Would want Sam to be normal!] And now, this Jess is saying like, the exact opposite thing to that.

G: Yeah, no, I mean, I don't think she's saying "I don't want you to have a normal life." She's saying, "It's not gonna happen, whether you want it or not."

C: Yeah. But like, okay, younger Sam saying, like, "Jess would have wanted you to have a normal- Do you think this is what she would have wanted?" does imply like, "You're capable of doing that, and you're just choosing not to." So this is a different conceptualization of Jess.

G: Yeah. But also, this is Lucifer, and that was Sam, so.

C: Yeah. I'm just saying, how is Sam willing to just be like, "Yeah, okay, this sounds right."

G: Well, again, I don't think we know what Jess is like, and like, anyone can make any argument for anything, including Sam and Lucifer. Like, young Sam telling himself that like, "Oh, you think Jess would want this?" And it's like, that could very well may be like, an idea that Sam has created for himself. Jess didn't know about this side of Sam. So how are we to know that she didn't want this for him?

C: I guess my point isn't about whether or not this is accurate to real Jess. It's about how I think it's inaccurate to Sam's concept of Jess, so I don't see how he's willing to accept this.

G: The thing is, like, Sam didn't know what Jess thought, and so he can just apply anything. [C: Uh-huh.] So this specific topic, Jess doesn't know, so Sam doesn't know what Jess would think of it. So anything goes. And I think that version of Sam telling himself like, "Oh, Jess wouldn't want this." It's like, that's a way that Sam is justifying that line of thought. And now, this Jess is saying this, and in Sam's head, it's like, "Well, that's a line of thought that is affirming my belief that I'm unfixable or whatever."

C: Yeah, okay. So yeah, he's just taking this as like, "Look at my brain trying to work through its little problems again." Okay.

G: Yeah. I also- I don't know. I wish we- You know, many people have said that like, they should have brought Jess back as like, a demon. Not as like, "She was a demon when she met Sam," but like, "She has turned into a demon in Hell after she died." What a missed opportunity! Supernatural should have done it. [C: Yeah.] I miss Jess! She literally was in one episode where she was nothing, but [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] it means something! And I wish we- Like, you know how they brought Mary back as a person. And this is about like- I mean, it's about many things, but a lot of what they did with Mary was like, debunking that myth of who Mary was that arose after she died. And now Jess is very much a myth in Sam's life for us viewers, and it'd be nice to debunk that myth also.

C: Yeah, it would, but I feel like they were like, "Well, we already did it with one woman. I don't think we need to do it with the woman we created only to parallel the other one."

G: Yeah. Yeah. Also, like, I mean, I appreciate that for Sam, like, it's about moving forward. Like, I feel like there would be something to be gained from like, Jess coming back. But also, like, I appreciate that a lot of Sam is like, "Well, that love interest is dead, [laughing] let's move on." [C laughs] No, because, like, you know, with Dean, like, Cas, keeps on coming back. So Dean never fucking moves on from that. Well, for Sam, like, Jess, he was gonna marry Jess. But now it's over.

C: Yeah. And she knew nothing about him. Like, she did know things about him, but there was a lot he was keeping from her. I don't know if it would have worked out.

G: Eileen comes back, and, well, is that a bit important to me? [laughs] Yes. But we'll get into it with Season 15.

G: Well, we now go to a music montage one week earlier, as Crystal said. [C: It's great.] I think we have discussed in the past how to pronounce this band name, except I completely forgot which we settled on [C: Lynyrd Skynyrd?] was the right- It's Lynyrd Skynyrd.

C: I think that's how it's pronounced in like, the "Equal Rights" song? The one about how "I'm not gay, but if I were, I would want equal rights." [G laughs] You know the one. The one with- that guy. Andy whatever. [G: Andy Samberg, yeah.] Yeah, that one.

G: Why does he say Lynyrd Skynyrd?

C: It's just part of his thing where he's talking really fast about like, the straight things that he likes.

G: Yeah, just like Lynyrd Skynyrd. Okay, well, that's fine. Well, Lynyrd Skynyrd's "Simple Man" is playing over this entire montage. "Simple Man" is like, a song that they play in conventions, I think. [C: Huh.] Like, Jensen has a video of him singing this.

C: He- wait, okay, it's not that he sings it. It's that he has a video of it that he plays? [G, laughing: No!] Like, he doesn't perform it. He plays the video?

G: There's a video on the Internet, I'm sure-

C: Okay, it's not that Jensen Ackles has a video, okay. [laughs]

G: It's not like he's going to the organizer going like, "I have a video on a USB. Can you put it in?" [both laughing] [C: Okay, got it.] Well, maybe he just he did just the one performance, and then after that, he just asks the organizer to play the video.

C: He's like, "You guys can just watch. I'll send you all the Youtube link."

G: Exactly. But the montage is like- It's actually quite fun! [C: I enjoy it.] It's like, Sam gets out of the car and to the bar. And Dean is going out of his car and like, entering.

C: Yeah, the transition from Sam to Dean [G: Is the trunk.]- Yeah, like, Sam opens the trunk so that his face is blocked and the trunk comes down, and then it's Dean, and it's like, look at this TikTok-ass transition.

G: Well, it's important- The editor of this episode really was flexing their AMV skills, as we have forementioned. [C: Mm-hm.] I don't know. There's one where, like, Sam throws all of his IDs on a sink, and then burns the IDs. [C: Yeah.] The fumes! [laughs] You're burning plastic in a closed room! What are you doing?

C: Well, remember, climate change isn't real. Dean Winchester said so.

G: Yeah, well, as this is happening, like, we zoom in into one of the IDs, and it transitions to Dean holding his fake ID to get into something. Sam slams down a crate of fruit on the bar, and Dean slams down a vampire into the Impala hood, and as Dean is stabbing the vampire-

C: Which is not how you kill vampires!

G: Yeah, I don't think so!

C: Like, what was that for? Like, he just needed to get his anger out on somebody? You can do that after you kill them. [G: It's supposed to be beheading?] Yeah, you're supposed to behead them or- do wooden stakes work? No, just the beheading.

G: Maybe he's sawing back and forth. [laughing] [C: No, I feel like this knife is aimed-] No, yeah yeah yeah, you're right.

C: The first stabbing, it was aimed at his stomach area.

G: It was a "stay still" stab. But yeah, Sam's cutting the fruits, Dean's cutting the vampire. And then, as Sam is wiping down the counter, Dean is wiping blood off the Impala. It's fun! Like, it is so fun. At some point, Sam like, wipes his forehead, wipes his sweat out of his forehead. Dean wipes blood out of his cheek. So fun!

C: Sam better be working hard to pay for Bobby's medical bills. Like, does that man even have insurance? [G: I mean, they'll find a way.] Well, I don't know if hospitals take credit card scam money. [G laughs]

G: Well, they ought to. There is a coworker that Sam is with, and she is just staring at Sam, and like-

C: She's a #PrettyGirl. [G: She's a #PrettyGirl.] And the lyric that's playing as that happens is "You'll find a woman and you'll find love."

G: [laughing] Supernatural is so unserious! [both laugh] We also learn like, while Dean is cleaning the car, that, like, this is music playing in the car for him. So he's listening to the song throughout this fucking montage. What is the- like, "Simple Man." [C: What's the meaning of it? Yeah, I didn't look it up.] I think it's about like, "Live a simple-"` It's like, about your mom telling you how to live. And it's like, "Live as a simple man," which I do find like, fascinating, that like, the application of the song here makes it seem like Sam is trying to live as such. He's trying to live as a simple man, but Dean is too. Like, that's the implication here. Like, this is what Dean thinks is like, the honorable, simple man thing of him to do. Hunt. And I think that is like, a very good representation of a difference in values for Sam and Dean. [C: Yeah.] Like, for Sam, like, normal life, is like, out of hunting. And for Dean, normal life is "be a good, diligent hunter." Fun stuff! The last scene is Dean like, driving, he's driving, he's alone. And he turns over his shoulder, and of course, Sam is not there. And it's not like- he's not putting on a sad look. He's putting on a brave face, I would say. And he just keeps on driving, car, blah blah blah. And then it transitions- good for them [C laughs]- into a very familiar scene for literally everyone who has ever made- [C: Yeah. Yeah.] ever watched a Destiel compilation video to make an AMV out of [C laughs], but Dean is standing in front of a mirror, and he has a washcloth, and he's slowly and gently cleaning his leather jacket.

C: Wait, are you sure it's his leather jacket?

G: Ah, it's not a leather jacket. It's a jacket.

C: It's a jacket that looks a lot like his 15.18 jacket.

G: Oh, it's like, a green- yeah, you're right. It's a green, like- work jacket-type thing.

C: It's green, it's like, canvas-sy. [G: Yeah, it's a work jacket.] Like, is that his 15.18 jacket? [G: You think so? Ah.] Right, 'cause I noticed that, and I also noticed that, like, the place that he's wiping down on the jacket, isn't that the shoulder [G giggles] that the bloody handprint ends up being on?

G: Is it? I thought he was doing the collar. God, what if the bloody handprint was on the collar?

C: Let me check. I don't know. What if? Does this matter enough for us to check? Or are we just gonna do whatever?

G: I mean, you can check, but I always enjoyed Dean cleaning his jacket because [laughs] I also have jackets that I clean! [C laughing] God.

C: Thank god for representation of people who clean their jackets.

G: [laughing] Exactly. Yeah, I mean, I think I just inserted the fact that it's a leather jacket into my mind. [C: Because you have leather jackets that you clean?] Yeah, but this way specifically, because you can't really wash that shit regularly.

C: It's the shoulder which is near the collar. I think it is a little more gray than the 15.18 jacket, though. [G: But it could also be a coloring-] I mean, one could argue that it's lighting, but- Yeah, like, lighting or coloring. But it does look a bit darker, 'cause 15.18 is like, sort of a middle green, right? [G: Yeah.] Well, I choose to believe it's the same jacket.

G: Does this mean something to anyone? Well, you brought it up, so it must mean something, at least. And then Cas appears [C exclaims], like, beside him, pretty much. And Dean, like, slouches over. Like, he gets startled by this. And then he goes, "Don't do that!" And then he turns around. [laughs]

C: Yeah, and at the "Don't do that!" Cas just frowns. He's like, "Why not?"

G: Yeah, Dean goes, "Don't do that," and Cas says, "Hello, Dean." And Dean turns around, and Cas is right there in front of him. And it's like, is this a gay joke? Like, are they making fun of Cas for being a bit gay? [C: Yes? I don't know.] I think the comedy is supposed to be that, like, "Ha, look. Cas doesn't know about social norms, so he's acting gay."

C: Yeah, yeah. It's not like, "Cas is gay, and that's funny." [G: It's that Cas doesn't know that he's gay.] It's like, "Cas doesn't know enough about the world to do all the posturing required to maintain, like, one's heterosexuality in the eyes of others, and that makes him the loser, not the rest of us."

G: Well, it makes him the winner, and all of us. [both laugh] [C: Real.] Dean says, "Cas. We've talked about this. Personal space." Which is, they've talked about it? When have they talked about it?

C: Like, I thought we saw all of their interactions, like, in full. [G: Yeah.] Like, when- The only interaction that we haven't seen in full is like, the end of the crane scene [G laughs], which, okay, I can understand that. I think after the crane scene ends, Dean's like, "Cas. You're standing way too close, man." Like, I think, that makes sense, [G: Yeah.] and they would just cut it out 'cause it would like, undercut the tension of the scene. So it's not like they're hanging out during times when we're not seeing it. But also, like, ugh. I care about that a little bit.

G: But also, like, the fact that the way this is- like, that's the Watsonian, right? But the Doylist perspective is like, the show must be aware that every time Cas is here, like, he's so near Dean, and this is them acknowledging that. That, like, "Oh, we also know that Cas is standing close." [C: "We know how gay this looks."] "We know how it is, but like, here's Dean saying, 'Ugh. Take a step back.'" And Castiel does. He goes, "My apologies," [C laughs] and then he steps back. Agh. The thing is like, this is, again, the first time that Dean and Cas are hanging out for a very extended period of time, and Dean lowers his voice!

C: Yeah. Yeah, 'cause I have a note here that just says "Dean's voice is so ugly," and it's like, I was struck with, like, how much I felt that. And like, I think it is 'cause he does change his voice, like, in a way that he hasn't before.

G: No, yeah, I noticed it, like, immediately in the scene where Dean goes, "[gruff] That's how the fucking levels of tone. And it is so funny, because, like, Cas just speaks like this. And then Dean, like, after spending, what? half a day with him in a car? is like, "[deep] Cas, you need to to button your shirt. I'm gonna do it for you. That's how you become president, Cas." [laughing] Like, okay. He's so funny.

C: Yeah, I think all the posts about how Dean's trying to out-masc Cas are probably what's happening.

G: Yeah. And it's just, I don't know. I mean, a little bit of it is like, when you hang out with someone, you kind of get their speaking cadence or their pattern of speech. [C: Yeah, yeah.] And we we do see Cas having that, right? Like, especially in the future. Cas will say things, and Dean will be like, "Huh?" And then he'll explain it as if Dean doesn't know what it is when he in fact got that turn of phrase from Dean. But like, I think like, Dean lowering his voice for Cas, of course there's the gender aspect of it, etc etc. But I do find it a little bit fun that, like, they've just been around so much each other that Dean has taken this from Cas.

C: They haven't been around so much each other. They've been around for one day.

G: Yeah, but that is so much time! To me. [laughs] [C, laughing: It's not, though.] Yeah. Literally, they've been around each other as long as we record one episode of the podcast. [both laugh] Like, that's how much time they've been around each other.

C: Yeah. I mean, I guess I picked up DGAF within the space of [G: Exactly.] RubbishPod 1.02, so this is the same thing.

G: Yeah. Well, maybe they should fuck raw in the street, also. [both laugh]

C: By also, we mean "Like Aziraphale and Crowley" [G, laughing: Yeah.], not "Like us in RubbishPod." [G laughing] But yeah.

G: Exactly. Well, I think what it is is, again, that I think Jensen Ackles just has problems and disorders. I'm sorry for diagnosing you in our podcast, Jensen Ackles. Or am I? But, like, I don't know. It is such an odd choice for everyone involved in and out of this story for Dean to do this. But okay, fine. Dean is like, you know, walking around the room, and he says like, "How did you find me? I thought the angel radar," blah blah blah. And Cas is looking around the room, like, taking a peek at everything, and he says, "Well, Bobby told me where you are."

C: Cobby is so real. Cobby is so real. [G: It's real.] I wanna know how that went, because the last time they interacted, it was like, Bobby was really mad at Cas for not healing his legs, [G: Yeah.] and then they didn't really talk after that. Like, did Cas just like, pop in and go, "Where's Dean?" And Bobby's just like, "Oh, so now you want something from me, even though you won't give me anything? Like, okay, fine. He's here." Or like, was it like, friendly? Or like, are they like, good now? Like, what is up with them?

G: Well, maybe he just called Bobby. [C: Uh-huh.] Maybe he knows Bobby's phone. No, the thing is like, how- why didn't he hide Bobby from the angels also? [C laughs] Cobby is not real.

C: I don't know. No, he wanted to always be able to find Bobby, [both laugh] and that's why he didn't do it. [G: And that's why Cobby is real.] His selfishness doomed Bobby. Yeah, that's why Cobby is real. Like, by putting those sigils on Sam and Dean's ribs, he was expressing his non-interest in them.

G: Yeah. I do feel like it may be a little bit irresponsible to have Bobby just be out and open to all of the angels and demons. Like, it's important that he's here. I mean, he literally got possessed, like, 5.01. So like, well, why are we not changing that?

C: By probably having an anti-possession tattoo.

G: Well, we've established that maybe he doesn't. [C: Mm-hm. Well.] Well, is a tattoo more or less agreeable to Bobby than rib sigils.

C: Wait, I know the answer. There's an anti-possession tattoo on the inside of all of his caps. [G: Love that!] So when Sam knocked his cap off of his head in 4.21, like, [G: He got possessed.] he was just exposed to the world, and he got possessed!

G: Exactly. I mean, you know what? [C: What?] You know how the clue at the beginning of 5.01 is that he's not wearing his cap, [C: Yeah, 'cause he's possessed.] and he puts it on to see Sam and Dean? [C: Yes.] Ah! I love it. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely correct in every way, shape and form. [C laughs] Well, maybe the tattoo is on his bald head [G laughs], and that's why we didn't know it was broken. Because we couldn't see his bald head. Is he even bald? I don't think that's true. [C: I don't know.] [laughing] He better be. [C laughing] I'm gonna slap his bald head.

Cas asks where Sam is, and Dean is hesitant, a little bit, and then just goes, "Me and Sam are taking separate vacations for a while."

C: Yeah, so he thinks this is temporary.

G: No, I think this is just something he's telling Cas to get out of the conversation. Whether he actually believes the temporariness or not, I don't think we can glean it here in this conversation.

C: I mean, I feel like it's pretty easy to not say "for a while."

G: Yeah, okay. Yeah, I get that. But, also, like, you know, Cas is invested, in some way, on Sam and Dean. So maybe Dean is like, "Don't worry." Dean asks about God and his necklace, and Cas says, "Well, I haven't found God yet, and that's why I'm here. I need your help." Cas says that he is looking for "The archangel, the one who killed me. His name is Raphael." [C: Yeah!] And Dean says, "You were wasted by a teenage mutant ninja angel?" Love that.

C: Oh, I don't care about Dean. I think it's so great that Raphael is the archangel assigned to Chuck. I didn't think that was an answer that we were gonna get. [G: Did you ask?] No, like, we wondered which archangel was assigned to Chuck before.

G: Did I not say that it's Raphael.

C: I think- Okay, so you knew?

G: Well, yeah! I mean, Raphael and Cas have always had beef because Raphael kills Cas there. [laughs] Did I forget to say?

C: Okay, I feel- Yeah, you forgot to say it. 'Cause I was just sitting there- wondering-

G: Well, maybe in the moment I forgot. But it's like, something that, in theory, I know.

C: Okay. Well, in practice you didn't. [G: Yeah.] But-

G: No, but like, Cas and Raphael, it's like, there's gonna be a long-standing beef between these two, and that is where it starts.

C: 'Cause it's like, this whole episode, Raphael's like, "God is dead. That's the only possible explanation, for, like, how bad life has been on Earth since the 1900s," and like, the whole time, like, he was like, watching God, protecting God from any harm that might come his way. Like, that's crazy!

G: That is something. Yeah, that does matter to me. Also, it's just, you know, incredibly annoying that the four archangels, Raphael is the only one who was not brought back or not given time to [C: Yeah.] or opportunity to process what has happened after Season 11 of Supernatural. Like, Gabriel was in Season 13, I think, and then dies, thank god! [C: Yeah. He fucks Rowena and then dies.] Yeah. Lucifer and Michael, obviously, around 'til the very end.

C: Yeah, they're around up until 15.19?

G: Yeah, like, I feel like Raphael is the same situation as Uriel for me of like, this is like, the people you need to be bringing back [C: Yes.] after you do the God review! These are the people who has interesting insights on this thing. But they just DGAF.

C: Yeah, they just want Mark Pellegrino all over their screens. [sighs] God, it still bums me so much that, like, Uriel like, didn't even do anything against the angels' plans. [G: Yeah.] And like, if he just knew that the angels also wanted to raise Lucifer, he would have had like, immense job satisfaction, he wouldn't have killed anyone in his garrison. [G: Yeah, and he could've been Zachariah.] Like, Anna wouldn't have killed him because he wouldn't have done anything sketchy. Yeah. And he could have done all the Zachariah shit, which like, yeah. I'm just sick of seeing Zachariah's face, and I think Uriel could have been a much better Zachariah.

G: Like, as I've said, if they want to have Cas's boss in there, just promote Uriel! I don't know.

C: Yeah, he was already seemingly temporarily promoted in 4.16.

G: Yeah. Just permanently demote Cas. [C: Mm-hm.] Cas says that he has heard that Raphael is on Earth, and this is a rare opportunity. And [laughs] Dean immediately goes, "For revenge?" [both laugh] [C: God.] I love Dean's mind. [laughing] He's so funny. [C: Yeah.] But yeah, Cas says, "No. Information." Dean says, "Oh, so like, are we just going to ask? And then he's just gonna tell us where God is?" And Cas says, "Yes, because we're gonna trap him and interrogate him." And he's so serious. [C: Yes.] [baby voice] His face is so serious. He's doing such a serious face. And-

C: [laughing] The way that you're you're describing this, the tone of voice that you're using to describe this is not particularly serious. You're using your like, talking to cats voice.

G: Am I? What do you mean?

C: I don't know. I feel like the way that you are describing Cas looking so serious was in the way you talk about a baby's cheeks being fat.

G: [laughing] No, I was doing it like that. I was- [C: Yeah, it is cute.] Like, "Cas's face is soo cute, but he's so serious! Look at him!" That's the vibe.

C: [laughing] This matters to him! This is important! He's been through shit! [G laughing] [G: That's what I'm saying!] We have to take him seriously. His feelings are real, Grey. He's not just a sex object. Just because I've said that Cas is just a sex object doesn't mean that we can both be like that. [G laughing]

G: He's a sex object, to you, and not to me.

C: Yeah, I do think it's great. Like, he rebelled like, once, and now he's like, "I'm gonna fucking trap an archangel [G laughs] and like, die about it, 'cause I feel like it."

G: To be fair, he does think God brought him back, and I feel like that will give you a lot of confidence to do anything you want, ever.

C: Does he think God will bring him back again? Well, he doesn't think God will bring him back again. He's pretty sure he's gonna die.

G: No, but God did bring him back, so there is a semblance of like, "I was right, and I should pursue that path." But, like, later, they did bluff a little bit. Like, Dean specifically bluffed Raphael with like, "Oh, you can't kill Cas because God's gonna bring him back, and where will that put you?"

C: Yeah. Is that what Dean says? I don't remember that at all.

G: Yeah, he does do that. When he's walking towards the beer.

C: I don't remember a lot of what Dean says during that scene because I spent the whole time talking over him, going, "Boo! Shut up! This is Cas's turn to shine" and stuff, so I have no clue what he said. I'll find out when I read the transcript. [G laughs]

G: Yeah, but like, at the moment, I was like, [baby voice] "Cas's face is so serious!" Dean also goes, "Oh, you're so serious!" [laughs] Like, "This for real for real." And Cas turns around, and Dean struts over to him and then goes, "So what? I'm Thelma, and you're Louise, and we're just going to hold hands and sail off this cliff together?" And Cas just stands there-

C: [laughs] And Cas just gives him a homophobic slug look.

G: [laughs] Yeah. And Crystal said, "I think Cas is homophobic. Joke! Or is it?" And it literally is a joke. Or is it?

C: Yeah, I don't think he's actually homophobic, [laughs] but also like, [G: Is he?] but he's not. [G: Or is he?] Or is he? [laughs] Well, he's not.

G: Throughout this episode, it is incredibly fun to have Dean constantly throw references at Cas or quips or jokes, and Cas is always like, either completely silent or just goes, "Yes." "No." "Alright." [laughing] Like, he DGAF. [C: Yeah, it's great.] Like, later on, when he got the holy oil, right, and he puts it there. And Dean is like, interrogating him in his usual jaunty manner, and Cas is literally just like, one answer per question, like, one word answer per question. And I love that. Good for you, Cas. And as he stares at Dean, Dean just like, gives up trying to be funny and goes, "Okay, well, why should I help you?" And Cas says, "Because you're Michael's vessel, and no angel will dare harm you." [C: So true.] And Dean goes, "Oh, so I'm your bullet shield?"

C: We should have a version of Supernatural where Sam and Dean are forever split up, and there's like, a Sam/Chuck hunting duo where Chuck is Sam's bulletproof shield, and then a Cas/Dean hunting duo where Dean is Cas's bulletproof shield.

G: Exactly. This is the Cas show, is what it is.

C: Well, Sam has an equal plot. [G laughing] Chuck and Sam plot is half of the episode, and the Cas and Dean plot-

G: [laughing] No, no, no, you know what I heard? I thought you said Cas and Chuck are hunting together, and Cas and Dean are also hunting together [C: No, I said-], and I was like, "Are they just passing Cas around?"

C: You misheard "Sam" as "Cas"? [G, laughing: Yeah!] Well, maybe I said it wrong. [G: Maybe you did.] Maybe if we look back at the audio, I'll have said it wrong-

G: Yeah, and I'll laugh forever and ever.

C: Yeah, and you'll laugh forever and ever.

G: Cas goes super serious again. He puts on a super serious face. And he walks towards closer to Dean again, [C: Mm-hm.] and goes, "I need your help because you're the only one who'll help me. Please."

C: And like, there's like, pauses in this sentence. [G: Yeah. Yeah. How did he make it?] It is not said in one stream. It's like, [overlapping] "I need. your help. because you. are. the only one. who will help me. [both] Please." Agh! Cas!

G: [laughing] Cas is so funny. Well. And there's this air of like, tension for a little bit where Dean is considering. And then he goes, "Okay."

C: 'Cause 5.02, the whole, like, "I lost everything because of you" thing just happened. It's part of the "Then" sequence. So it is like a- like, yeah. Like, that is the case. Cas has lost all of his allies and all that shit.

G: Yeah. And then Dean finally says, "Alright." And there is like, kind of like, a breath of relief that Cas does, and it was interesting to me. Dean's like, "Okay, where are we going?" And Cas goes, "Maine. Let's go," and then goes to reach towards Dean's forehead with his fingies. [C laughs] And Dean goes, "No. Last time you zapped me someplace, I didn't poop for a week," so yeah, they're gonna go on a drive. Okay, before we get into the rest of this episode, I do wanna ask your opinion on what you said in 5.01, I think, [C: Okay.] that, like, the underlying current of 5.03 is that Dean is using Cas to replace Sam or whatever. [C: Mm-hm.] What are your thoughts about that now?

C: I think it's a bit less true than I thought it was. I think it's still part of it. Well, it's- okay. I think it's more of like a Nick the siren in "Sex and Violence" situation where it's like, "Oh, isn't this so great? If only Sam could be cool like you." Like, I think that he is thinking that at points in time.

G: I don't think Dean is thinking Cas to be cool, or whatever.

C: It's like "This is a better relationship than the one I have with Sam, and I wish that my relationship with Sam was easier, like this."

G: Interesting. I don't think he is necessarily comparing it to his relationship with Sam. I would say this is more akin to, like, when, you know, when you're mourning something. Like, perhaps you broke up with a friend or broke up with a partner or whatever, and you just start hanging out with more people, or you start like, attaching yourself to another friend to feel better. And it's not like you're actually replacing one-to-one the relationship you lost. It's more of a "it's better to be around people when you're mourning something." Dean, no matter how hard he tries to deny it, is mourning something here, and so like, just having another person here will make him feel better, you know?

C: Sure, yeah. I just think that his whole thing about like, "Oh my god, I haven't laughed this hard in years, parentheses, because I'm so mad at Sam. I hate Sam." [G laughs] and then his ending thing where it's like, "I'm so much better alone without Sam." I think it just makes me think that he's thinking about Sam more than he says out loud in the episode.

G: Well, of course he's thinking about Sam. But I don't think it really is a direct, like, "And Cas is Sam's replacement." It's more of having Cas here around and realizing that "After Sam is gone, I can still have a good time, and I can still hunt, and, you know, not be completely fucking depressed about it" is a testament that "We can do this. Like, I can be apart from Sam, and it's fine."

C: I think it's that- Oka, it's not that he misses Sam. I think that it's like, he misses the role of "older brother." [G: Yeah, that, too. This is one of these-] I think that's what I'm getting at more. It's not aboutSam as a person. It's like, "I miss someone listening to me and me getting to teach them shit, like I wish I had with Sam."

G: Dude, like, we've had this discussion, I think, with an anon, right? Like, they asked like, "Wait, so like, does Dean actually love Sam, or he just loves being an older brother?" [C: Huh, I don't remember this conversation, but I believe it.] Maybe it's a DMs or an ask, but it was something akin to "It is so mind-boggling that Dean just thought that like, he could replace Sam." And it's like, well, it's your younger brother. Like, that's a human person. And it's like, in theory, you love that person as a person, and not by virtue of like, your supposed role, like, in each other's life, as like, "I have authority over you by virtue of being older brother." [C: Mm-hm.] That is a kind of like, a vibe, I think, in the siren episode, specifically, because that was like, a one-to-one like- [C: Yeah, that was a one-to-one.] Like, "I want the brother who respects me [C laughs] and respects my address" or whatever, versus like, well, but you're- you have an actual brother. And like, well, I mean, don't you love him? [laughs] Like, I don't know! And this one, I think, is just a tad bit different from that perspective. I don't know. Maybe because I'm like, "Well, Cas is important and special, and how could you not love Cas just by virtue of who he is as a person?" But like, yeah, I think it's more on the side of you're trying to find your footing after you lost something and realizing that you can live with that loss because you're able to have fun. It is incredibly funny that Dean at the end was like, "Oh, I'm so happy! Look, I'm so happy that- I'm able to be happy even without Sam! I mean, you're here, and you're not even that much fun, [C laughs] and I still had fun." And [laughing] Cas just leaves.

C: Oh, yeah, I mean, best line of the episode is when Cas leaves.

G: He was like, "Ugh, I'm no fun?" and then just leaves. [C laughs] Good for him.

C: Okay, yeah. I think I see your perspective, and yeah, I think, okay, I think it is a mix of what you said and also just Dean wanting to be in the older brother role. [G: Yeah.] And that doesn't mean Cas is necessarily, like, Sam for him. But he is just like, a person who fulfills some of what Sam fulfilled for Dean, emotionally.

G: Yeah. Like, Dean likes a specific dynamic in most of his relationships. And like, yeah, like, the dynamic of "I'm someone you respect and like, follow. And I can teach you how to do things." Like, Dean is a leader type.

C: Well, [laughs] is he a leader type, or he just likes being in control?

G: No, I think he is a leader type.

C: When was a leader?

G: I don't know. [C: I don't think he is.] In a school project in the past, probably. Let's do it.

C: Dean in a school-? [G: No, absolutely not.] Dean is the worst guy to have on a school project.

G: Dean should have led a basketball team, is my wholehearted belief. He should be so bad at it. But he should be like, the personality hire.

C: Everyone would quit. [G laughing]

G: He should be a personality hire.

C: [laughing] Like, for bad personalities?

G: [laughing] Yeah. He's the opposite of a personality hire. He's like, there to piss everyone off so they try to do better. I don't know. Like, to me. I think Dean likes the dynamic where he is leading, and he-

C: Okay, Dean likes leading, but yeah, I guess I assume "leader type" to mean that you're good at it. But you just mean that he likes being a leader. [G: Yeah.] Yeah, I think he likes being leader. I think he's bad at it, though.

G: I don't know. Like, next episode, 5.04, “The End,” we're gonna get a Dean who has taken the role of a leader type in a big setting. So like, I think- and I think that characterization is in character for Dean. So like, you know what I mean, right? Like, I can see the followthrough.

C: Yeah. Ugh, I don't wanna watch 5.04. I'm so completely uninterested in this AU. [G: Why?] But maybe it will surprise me. [G: I mean-] It's Zachariah's conceptualization to try to get Dean to do something. Like, I don't think I would take any character insights from it.

G: I think Zachariah is pretty good at that thing, though. Like, we liked "A Terrible Life," and that's Zachariah.

C: Well, that was- He just wiped their memories and put them in a situation. Like, they made all those decisions themselves. Like, his headcanons [G: Is valid to him.] of Cas and Dean are not- like, [laughs] that's- yeah. Like, it's valid to him, but like, I don't really find it particularly interesting because I'm not interested in Zachariah. But yeah, okay.

G: Let's get into it- I think there is a chance you'll change your mind. But there is also a chance that you won't. Let's see next episode.

C: I mean, Cas is hot with the beard. Maybe that'll change my mind.

G: I actually don't think so. [C: Huh.] But whatever. I mean, I'm not gonna defend "The End"-

C: This will be a riveting debate next week. [G laughs]

G: I don't really defend- I don't really find myself wanting to defend "The End" that much because I just do not have the same fascination over it that many people in the fandom do. [C: Yeah.] But yeah, I think it could be an interesting conversation. Yeah. But like, Dean as someone who likes to lead would want that kind of dynamic in his relationships. So yeah. Just like me for real. [laughs]

C: At least people want you on group projects. At least you'd be good at it. Dean's like, leading everybody to an F with full confidence.

G: Well, yeah. And he also did try to do a suicide mission with everyone without telling them, so.

C: And that's what getting an F in school is. [G laughs] [G: Exactly.]

G: It's Lindsey, being the most annoying- [C: Yeah.] I'm so sorry to this woman. But she is so annoying!

C: So sorry to this woman. I'm curious about Jeremy Carver's romantic relationships in his personal life. [G laughs] Honestly, like, what is going on?

G: I mean, we rarely think of Supernatural as a reflection of the writer's psyche, but, my god. [both laugh] Let's reflect on that psyche, Jeremy Carver.

C: Yeah, yeah, I think Danica was just like, "I think Lindsey is like, that thing where men say that they like a woman who knows what she wants," so like, I think that that is what they're trying to do with her.

G: Being this curious about other people's life, and basically a stranger. Like, Keith is a stranger to Lindsey, right?

C: And she's like, "Why are you not telling me about your past that you're clearly traumatized about?"

G: And the thing is like, at the end, when they had the actual conversation, and she brought out her sober- [C: Her sobriety chip?] Yeah, her chip. Yeah, she brought it out, and she was like, "I know what it's like, and, you know, you can tell me. It's fine." I did think to myself like, maybe this type of prying is a result of that. Like, she clocked Sam as some kind of someone trying to get sober or be sober, but so like, she wants to help out in that way. She wants to connect in that way. But still, it's too much. It's still too much. [C: Yeah, yeah. You should maybe not push in that kind of situation.] Like, that could be a reasonable reading. It's just even then it's, well, she shouldn't be. She still shouldn't be doing this.

C: 'Cause I think my idea of the episode is that, like, Sam actually wants her so bad, but like, he's holding himself back [G: That is not true.] because he doesn't want to make human connections, so like- You don't think that that's what the episode's going for?

G: No! You think Sam is interested in her at all.

C: I think that the fact that this opens with Sam saying that he is like, not gonna make the mistake of getting close to anyone again is supposed to color what we think about his reactions to Lindsey. And also because, like, this is absolutely where we're supposed to think Cas wants to fuck a woman so bad, and all he does is look scared and upset. [G laughs] So like, I think whoever directed this episode just thinks arousal is just you looking scared and upset. [laughs] So like, that's also what's happening with Sam. They're like, "Jared Padalecki, we're gonna show that you're really into this woman by making you look so sad and bummed out every time she talks to you."

G: He doesn't even spare her look outside of those conversations!

C: I think we're supposed to think he's holding himself back.

G: I don't know. I think- like, maybe he is holding himself back, but it's a very easy thing to do, due to he's not interested at all.

C: [laughs] Yeah, no, because if I was just going off of like, acting choices, I would be like, "He's not interested at all." But like- [G: Thematically, the episode- yeah.] yeah, I think the theme of the episode is like, "Sam is holding himself back from being his true self, which is like, a hunter [G, laughing: In love with this woman.], and also someone who fucks." [both] Yeah. [G: They need to have three conversations and one sex, yeah!] Plus, we have the "Simple Man" lyric over the Lindsey/Sam look. So I think the authorially, we're supposed to think he's into it, but like, nothing about the acting choices, implies it, and the writing, to any normal person, would not indicate to you that he's into it. But I think the intent is that you're supposed to think he's into it.

G: Yeah, well, it's so confusing. I mean, it's just, like, I understand that not everything is for me and about me, and I can understand. But it's just, sincerely, even with that mindset at the back of my head, the logic of "I'm gonna talk to this stranger and pry about their life" is not a line of thought I can follow. You know what I mean? Like, even when I try to, I can't follow it. So yeah, I don't know.

C: Yeah, I mean, Danica was a lot more sympathetic to this episode than me. I think she was just saying like, "Well, Lindsey's like, a bored townie, and like, this mysterious hot guy has just come into town, [G: Okay, yeah.] and like, she's got nothing else to do."

G: I get that. What's that? A novel is a guy getting out of town, and a short story is about a guy coming in to town. That's something people say, right? [C: Okay, yeah, sure.] And this is a guy coming into town.

C: Yeah, she's just seeing Sam as sort of like, a game [G: Yeah.] for a bit, and that is annoying. But I can understand that instinct in a person. But also, I do think that Jeremy Carver just has something weird going on in his head. [both laugh] Jeremy Carver and J. Miller Tobin.

G: [laughing] Yeah. I mean, he is the infamous "shave your chest, father of two, it's fanservice time" writer, so.

C: Yeah. I don't really see how to apply that to this situation, though.

G: No, it's just- it's not applicable. It's just [laughs] something to keep at the back of your head.

C: Okay. Like, we should forgive him all his bad writing decisions because he told that father of two to shave his chest?

G: No! No! It's just, if we are going to psychoanalyze Jeremy Carver, which we are not doing, [C laughs] just for the information of everyone-

C: Yeah, we have to remember that he's attracted to women who #KnowWhatTheyWant, and to Misha Collins.

G: [laughs] Yeah, exactly. These are irrefutable facts that we need to keep in mind. [C laughs]

C: We're back to the bar where Sam works in the present day, and [G, laughing: Okay, yeah.] Lindsey's at the dartboard, she's throwing darts. They land alright. She asks Sam, "Hey, Keith, you play?" which means that he's going by the name Keith right now. [G: Love that. Who is that?] Yeah, is that like, a music artist? Like, a classic rock artist we're supposed to know whose name he took?

G: The only Keith I know is Keith Haring. Who the fuck is that? [C: I don't know who that is.] Keith Haring is an American artist- oh, no. "emerged from the New York City graffiti subculture of the 1980s." [C: He's the guy who draws the guys, yeah.] Who is another- Keith Urban is a music guy. [C: Okay, is he a classic rock guy?] Australian-American singer, guitarist, and songwriter known for his work in country music. He's not a band guy, he's just a guy. [C: Okay. Well, I don't know.] Well, let's look up famous Keiths. [laughs]

C: It doesn't matter that much. I'm over it.

G: No, I want to know who the famous Keiths are.

C: Sam named himself after the main character in Voltron: Legendary Defenders. Next! [G laughs] [G: There's a guy named Keith there?] Is Keith even the main character of Voltron? I don't know that much about Voltron.

G: I don't know anything about Voltron except [C: Like, it's bad. That's all I know.] that Danica hates it so much it's unreal, yeah.

C: So she's being flirty, [G: Is she?] and he seems to be like, friends with her an okay amount.

G: The thing is, I don't even think she's trying to flirt with him. [C: Okay, she's just like this?] I think she literally is just being nosy. [C: Okay. Really?] Every single time she was like, "Let's go to lunch," it's like, well, you're not Aziraphale and Crowley going to the Ritz. [C laughs] It's literally just like, she just wants to know about Sam's life, and after the lunch, she's like, "I'm off to the world! Goodbye, Sam." Or Keith, I suppose.

G: Okay, that makes sense. Sam asks what they're playing for, and Lindsey says, "World peace." So, you know, she's like, #quirky, #funny. You said most of Sam's love interests pursue him, and are also snarky, are their two things, right?

G: And am I right or am I right?

C: I think you are right, yeah. Like, she seems to fit the Sam Love Interest of the Week MO quite well. Lindsey is like, "Oh my god, you finished the New York Times Saturday crossword. [G: Just like us for real.] You're like, so smart!" [G laughing] Like, okay. I guess when you don't have the autochecker online, [G: For real, this is true.] I guess when you don't have the autochecker online, filling out the New York Times Saturday is hard. Okay, I'll take it. [G: Yeah.] "You blow into town last week. You don't talk to anybody. You're obviously highly educated. You're like, this-" And then, Sam says [G: Yeah, what is Sam doing?], "Riddle wrapped inside an enigma wrapped inside a taco?" What does that- what? Is this a reference to anything? What?

G: I don't think it's a reference. The only reference to riddle I know is E. Nygma. [laughs] [C: Yeah. Edward Nygma.] The Riddle. [C: The Riddler, yeah.] [laughs] Not the Riddle. The Riddler, yeah.

C: I don't know. I think he's just trying to match her energy. Like, her quirky girl energy.

G: Yeah, Sam thinks he's a quirky girl, too, and he's not. [laughing] He's annoying as fuck.

C: Well, I mean, he's trying to match Lindsey's energy, and [overlapping] Lindsey is annoying as fuck, so like, this is just a self-perpetuating issue.

G: Yeah. They're ouroboro-ing being annoying.

C: I guess- I don't know. I guess the fact that he's matching her energy, like, I feel like that is like, a flirty thing to say. Like, "Oh, yeah, I am so mysterious," you know what I mean? Like, I guess that's part of why I think we're supposed to think he's into it but holding himself back.

G: Yeah. Also, do you think it is obvious that Sam is highly-educated, as she puts it? [C: Mm-hm.] You think so? Like, if you saw Sam IRL, you'll be like, "Oh, yeah, that's a guy who-"

C: If I just saw him, I mean, I wouldn't know, if I just saw him. But she's just doing it based off of his crossword prowess.

G: Ah, you're right. She did mention the crossword.

C: Yeah, like, she's just talking about the crossword. Like, yeah. If I saw him do all of it on paper, with no mistakes, and complete it, then, yeah, I would be like, "Well, you know a lot of things." I don't know if that's through formal education or elsewhere, but. So Lindsey says that what they're gonna play for is that when she wins, he'll buy her dinner and then tell her his life story.

G: What a fucking nosy-ass thing to ask for, but okay.

C: Yeah. And Sam thinks this too, 'cause he goes "Sounds fair," and then like, without blinking, without anything, he just like, three darts in a row, right in the center of the target, like, "I win. No date for you." [laughs]

G: He should have done that thing that Merida does in Brave where [laughs] she splits the fucking last arrow. Sam should have done that. What they should have done is Lindsey has thrown one in the bullseye and then asks Sam for it, [laughs] and then Sam splits the dart. Iconic.

C: Yeah. This is a great Sam is gay scene also. It's very "I'm lactose intolerant." [G: Yeah.] He doesn't like, acknowledge her talk to her after that, because he's distracted by what's going on in the news. So he just like, stalks away over to the TV after, and she says, "Very mysterioso." What's wrong with her?

G: I feel like those are the kinds of things that you keep to yourself. Like, maybe you think it, but keep it to yourself.

C: Yeah, I don't know. I think she just wants to be like, sort of like, the narrator of her life, and I respect that. [G laughs] [G: Exactly, yeah.] Right, 'cause afterwards, she goes, "I like it." Like, girl. [laughs] Stop it. Calm down. [G: Yeah. And Sam just does not give a single shit.] Yeah, he's not listening. He is just looking at what happens, which is that there was a fire nearby, and there's a really bad hailstorm turned into lightning strikes that caused the fires.

G: Oh, the fire is like, the fires in like, the big ones in the forest. What's that called? Forest fire? [laughs] [C: Forest fires?] Yeah. So it's a big deal. 20 acres, which we have learned the size of through this podcast! [laughs] Somebody emailed us about it, [C: I forgot.] 'cause we were talking about it in the "Road 6-" oh, no, the one where there's a lady in the road, and like, she killed a guy, and now she's a ghost forever in that road. [C: "Roadkill"?] [laughs] "Roadkill." There's a road and she killed a guy. [C, laughing: There's a road and she killed a guy, yeah.] No, but like, in that one, we were like, saying, "What the fuck is up with the fact that there's like, a farmer that owns this much land?" Is that true? Does that happen?

C: Yeah, yeah, we did talk about that, and they were like, "It does seem pretty big, but [G: That is how it is, yeah.] something about crops." Yeah. So this fire's nearby. It's possible that everyone's gonna have to evacuate. And a bartender says, "Is it me, or does it seem like it's the end of the world?"

G: And Sam's like, "Agh." He does like, a little look away. [C: Yeah, he does his guilt face.] Yeah. Ah, Sam! Later on, he continues doing his guilt face. Like, he clenches his jaw, and we see that little jaw thing move. It's fun.

C: Yeah, I do like that when Sam's upset, his face gets like, twitchy instead of still.

G: Yeah, versus, I feel like, Dean, who does do a Blue Steel thing face when he's mad. [C laughs] And by steel, I mean, [laughs] it's frozen. Yeah.

G: Well, we go to Dean and Cas. And they are now in Maine, and they're about to go to the sheriff's office. Okay, in this scene, Dean gives Cas an ID. A fake ID. And later, Cas shows it, and it's his face. Like, that's Cas's face. When the fuck-

C: Oh, yeah. When did Dean get a photo? I mean, we don't see him go into the Impala right after Dean decides to help. Dean's probably like, "Okay, we'll need a fake ID." He takes a photo of Cas right there, and then they go to the print shop.

G: Yeah. But the way- Okay, let's go over the conversation. So Cas is saying like, "Oh, a deputy sheriff laid eyes on an archangel." And Dean is like, "Okay, well, how are we gonna go through with this?" And Cas says that, "We just tell the officer [C: I wuv him!] that we witnessed an angel of the Lord, and the officer will tell us where the angel is."

C: He's so right! He's so correct about everything forever!

G: Dean says, "Well, are you just gonna go in there and tell him the truth?" And Cas goes, [sadly] "Why not?" [makes pained sounds]

C: He doesn't go, "Why not?" like that. [G laughing] He goes, "Why not?" normal and serious, but yes.

G: No, he goes, "Why not?" And then he squints his eyes a little bit. [C exclaims] And Dean says, "Because we're humans." And he, again, puts the fake ID on Cas's inside pocket, and he starts buttoning up Cas's shirt and then adjusting his tie. Pretty fun! Okay, so the way this conversation goes, Dean is like, "Oh, seriously, you're gonna do that? No, do this instead." So this is like, not something that they talked about prior like. Surely if Dean was like, "Okay, Cas, stand there. I'm gonna take a photo." Like, Cas would be like, "Why?"

C: Yeah, but Dean would just take the photo mid-him saying, "Why?" and then print it anyway.

G: Did you look at the photo? [C: No.] Cas looks like he's constipated in the photo. I love it!

C: Exactly. Like, he was like, "Why are you taking this photo, Dean?"

G: And yeah, Dean says, "When, we want something really really bad, we lie." And Cas, again, goes, "Why?" And Dean goes, [deep, mumbly] "Because that's how you become president." [both laugh] He's so funny.

C: Like, this was Obama era in 2009. I'm wondering if there was anything that happened recently in politics that I'd forgotten about, or if it's just like, a general thing.

G: When did- Wasn't 2009 Obama's first year?

C: Yeah, 'cause he was elected in 2008.

G: He was elected in 2008, and January 1 is the start of the American presidential term.

C: The inauguration is sometime in January, yeah.

G: Slay! Oh, yeah. Because it happened after January 6, I presume.

C: Oh, yeah, after the- [laughs] yeah. [G: Yeah.] [C laughing]

G: Yeah, they come in, and they're standing by the door! I mean the door of the office. And yeah, Dean introduces himself, and he goes, "I'm Alonzo Mosely, FBI." [laughing] And then Cas is just standing there, and he goes my partner, "This is my partner, Eddie Moscone." And he's waiting for Cas to pull up his ID, and Cas is just, again, standing there, and Dean goes, [laughs] "Also FBI." And Cas is just standing there! And Dean is staring at him, and Cas notices, and he goes, "Oh, okay." And then he pulls out his FBI ID and opens it up, and it's upside-down! [C: Yeah, it is!] And Dean takes it out of his hand and pulls it right-side-up, and it's so wonderful! [C laughs] And he goes, "He's new." Agh, I love Castiel, and also that fucking- that trailer. [laughs] You know the one, right? The big trailer. [C: Yeah, The Profound Bond.] Amazing. Truly iconic.

C: Sam's role is really small in the movie, and I have an issue with that.

G: [laughing] Yeah, the actual movie that actually came out where he drinks champagne. [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] They go in to ask questions, and the sheriff says that they need to talk on his right ear because his left ear's busted because of the- what happened on the gas station, which is that there was a riot, and everybody was trying to kill everyone. Throughout it, the sheriff is like, "I have no idea, but they were trying to kill each other," and Cas goes turns towards Dean and goes, "It's angels and demons, probably," [C laughs] but like, loud enough for the sheriff to hear also. [C: Uh-huh.] [laughing] And the sheriff goes, "Huh?" Like, just looks at Cas. And then Cas, very earnestly, very sage, goes, "They're skirmishing all over the globe." [laughs] [C exclaims] And then the sheriff's like, "What?" [C: He's so everything.] And then, you know, Dean and Cas are saying- like, Dean is saying, "Nothing." but every single time he says it, Cas just goes, "Demons." [C: "Demons."] [laughs] And then Dean says it again, and Cas says, "Demons." again. And then Dean finally says, "You know, demons. Drink, adultery. We all have our demons." [both laugh] Iconic. The officer is like, "Okay. Well, the explosion happened, and it's not like, a gas tank explosion, because it doesn't look like it. It looks like-" And Cas goes, "It's pure white." And like, the officer goes, "Yeah. The gas station was leveled. Everybody's dead. And then there's this one guy, kneeling, real focused-like, not a damn scratch on him." He's Donnie Finneman, a mechanic. And Dean is like, "Okay, well, let me guess. Did he vanish into thin air?" And the officer says, "No, actually." [C: "No, you weirdo. Why would you say that?" is like, the vibe.] Like, "Um, no." [laughs] So true. And yeah, he's down at St. Pete's. And Cas, who this entire, entire entire thing, like, whenever we pan to him, he's just sitting, slouching a little bit, and he's just nodding very seriously at everything. He leans over to Dean and goes, "St. Pete's." [C laughs] And Dean goes, "Thank you." Lovely. They actually do visit Donnie, the vessel, and he's just a vessel now. Raphael's not there. And he is sitting on a wheelchair, right? [C: Yeah.] He's sitting on a wheelchair, and [C: He's sorta staring into space.] he seems unfocused, like, very fazed. He's just staring out the window or something. And yeah, Cas says that this is an empty vessel. And Dean asks if like, "Oh, is this what's gonna happen to me with Michael?" And Cas, very serious, like, everything he says is not like, delivered with any gravitas. He's just saying it. He goes, "No, not at all. Michael is much more powerful. It'll be far worse for you." [laughs] [C: Yeah, baby!] He DGAF, and I love him.

C: Yeah. Sorry to Donnie Finneman for what happened to you. [G: Yeah.] Do we see Donnie again, or is the next time we see Raphael in the woman vessel? No, wait, we do see him again in "Man Who Would Be King," but then Cas kills him, and then we see him in-

G: But we do see the woman vessel later, and I think, isn't there like, an implication there, that your vessel dies, right, and then you're gone? Because, like, you're supposed to have consent to be in the body, so if the person inside dies, then you're off.

C: I thought it was more so that Cas's bright light thing, like, destroyed the body, so there's no way to keep using it.

G: You can heal a vessel, or not be hurt by something.

C: Yeah, but there's probably limits to it.

G: But I also do think, you have the vessel, the person inside needs to be alive for you to be in there. [C: Yeah.] That's the reason why Benjamin's vessel, right? That's why they're together forever, whatever. Like, he's keeping her alive, and he needs to do that because otherwise, that wouldn't be his vessel anymore. So there is the idea that the vessel needs to be alive for the angel to be able to possess the vessel, which, you know. [C: Yeah, yeah.] Cas is always the specialest little Princess in this situation, of course.

C: Yes. 'Cause I think already dead, right?

G: Yeah. Jimmy's dead- I'm not sure when when they confirm it, actually. I'm sure they do. They must do. But yeah.

C: I mean, if they were gonna confirm it, you'd think they would do it in this episode like they did with Ruby right before she and Sam have sex.

G: [laughing] Why? Because- ah, yeah, you're right.

C: Because Cas is going to have sex, and if Jimmy was there, that would be bad.

G: I'm going to look up, actually. Oh! Okay, here's the thing. Jimmy is still alive here!

C: He is? Well, that's not good.

G: Okay. In "Sympathy for the Devil," it's revealed by Chuck that Cas and Jimmy were blown up by Raphael. God later resurrects Castiel and Jimmy, too. And then in "My Bloody Valentine," Cas's ravenous desire for red meat was because of Jimmy. [C: 'Cause Jimmy's still alive in there.] And then in "Swan Song," Castiel is again killed by Lucifer, and Jimmy's body is once more blown up. And then Cas is resurrected by God as a seraphim still in Jimmy's body, and Jimmy does not return and is sent to Heaven. So the entirety of Season 5, Jimmy is alive. He's still here.

C: Well, they should not have had this plotline. Okay.

G: That's crazy. You're right that they should have addressed it here. I just thought it was like, addressed already because I thought Jimmy was dead already.

C: No, I guess he's not. Yeah, I don't- I guess- Yeah. Like, they care with Ruby but not for Cas? I don't- why?

G: Who wrote the Ruby and Sam episode? "What You Did That Summer"?

C: I thought it was a Gamble. Let me check. [overlapping] Yeah, it's a Gamble. Yeah, this is Carver, who has different values by being a different person, so.

G: I think it's just a lack of- [C: Caring about it.] caring about it or awareness that, "Oh, okay, we should address this." [C: Mm.] Huh! That is crazy.

C: Well! Well, okay. Well, I don't like that.

C: So we are now at the Great Plains Motel room, and Sam is doing some research, and he's on his phone. He scrolls down in his contacts to Dean and thinks about calling him, but eventually just scrolls back up to call Bobby. Dean has a New York City area code.

G: Oh, Sam is using a Blackberry. [C: Oh, is he?] Yeah, I think so. I mean, a Blackberry-style phone with a QWERTY keyboard, which is pretty fun! I mean, later on, in Season 11, Sam takes a picture of a sigil with like, a smartphone. [C: Wow.] So by the time Season 11 rolls around, they're smartphoning it up.

C: Wow. Sam has "early adapter of Apple technology" kind of vibes.

G: No, but the thing is, at that point, Sam was using a phone that was like, old for the time, right? And I was like, "Oh, come on. You're buying this with stolen money- like, with fake credit cards. Just buy the most expensive one, I believe! Like, you need to be using the iPhone 15 for Macs!"

C: No, but they get tossed around a lot when they're hunting, so they would probably prioritize like, sturdiness in phones, and like, iPhones break like anything. [G: This is true.] Sam calls Bobby, and they have a conversation. Bobby makes a comment about his legs, but he says, "But I'll live." Good for him. Yeah. Sam and Dean have both left him. I hope that he's like, figuring out how to cook and stuff alright by himself. [G: Who, Sam? Or Bobby.] No, Bobby. [G laughing] Well, the only time we see him cook is like, using the grill, and I think that the wheelchair is probably a good height for grilling things [G: Yeah, hell yeah.] so he's good. Sam says that there were some Revelation omens nearby in Oklahoma because there was hail and fire mixed with blood. The whole time, Bobby's like, "Okay, okay, okay. Like, why are you calling?" And Sam goes, "Dean didn't tell you?" 'Cause like, Bobby literally loves Dean like a son and Sam like a coworker.

G: No, literally, this entire time, I was like, "Bobby loves Sam as a coworker." [C laughs] Like, he literally says, like, "Just get back on the job." And it's like, you have no respect for Sam's personal decisions!

C: Like, he does not care about Sam's recovery at all!

G: Yeah! He literally says, "Go back to being my coworker! [both laugh] Why are you calling me, if not as a coworker?" [C laughing]

C: Yeah. And like, yeah, there's like, one personal thing that comes up, and Sam's like, "Your like, friend and son Dean, who would complain about me to you, didn't tell you about this?" He really does only love Sam like a coworker. Bobby says, "He told me," and Sam does something that I think is incredibly healthy and good, but, like, everyone in the episode is telling him that, like, he's like, a terrible person for it.

G: I think the point is that like, "We are in such a crisis that your feelings shouldn't matter." [C: Yeah.] Which like, well, I think it should.

C: Yeah, I think they should, and also, Sam is doing this because we're in such a crisis. He's like, he's worried that he's gonna make things worse, and it would be very bad to make things worse right now.

G: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's that's his reasoning for himself. But everybody is saying like, "That's irresponsible that you think that."

C: Sam tells Bobby, "Yeah, so I thought you might want to find out who's in the area and put a man on this." And Bobby's like, "Oh, yeah, of course. I'll call like, the best hunter nearby. Oh, wait. That's you." And Sam tells him like, "No, I'm sitting this one out." And Bobby tries to stop him. But Sam's like, "I'm gonna hang up." And Bobby's like, "Noo, wait, Sam!" but then he does hang up. Bobby is so up and down on whatever the fuck. Like, okay, I guess this is supposed to be a continuation of in 4.22, when he was like, "We should let Sam out and feed him demon blood to kill Lilith because currently, we just love him too much for that to happen, but, like, what should be important is stopping the Apocalypse." So like, this is like, that mindset coming back.

G: Yeah. And also like, you know, what he tells Dean, like, "Well, the world is ending, and you're going to have this fucking little drama that you're having?" Oh, no, that's in 4.21 also. But yeah, Bobby, just thinks there are more important things than whatever the fuck this is.

C: But in 4.22, isn't Bobby like, "Dean, you have to go talk to Sam!" And then Dean's like, "Shouldn't we focus on the Apocalypse?" and Bobby's like, "No, go talk to Sam!" Like, what does this man think, ever? [laughs]

G: I don't know. Does Bobby have a mind, soul, body, and being? Probably not. [C laughs]

C: I mean, he is fictional. I'm just confused.

G: I mean, Sam and Dean and Cas and everyone else, they're also fictional, but we have a clear throughline of who they are as people.

C: And it's about which characters the writers view as "I need to be consistent with their thoughts and feelings" [G: Yeah.] and which characters are like, "I need them to say certain things to influence the main characters."

G: Yeah. Bobby is a plot character as opposed to Sam and Dean.

C: I would say that Cas is currently still a plot character.

G: Yeah, but he's so lovely! [laughing] [C: Yeah, he is.] And despite being a plot character, his plot reasons are like, reasonable. It's because we haven't had much time for Cas to be contradicting himself yet in ways that don't make sense. [C: That's true.] You know, Bobby has been around so much, and we know nothing about him.

C: Yeah, yeah, this is true. Oh well.

C: Cas and Dean are camping out in some abandoned house. It's just Dean alone, and then Cas shows up because he's been off to Jerusalem in order to get some special, rare oil. What it's being used for is some kind of a ritual, but Cas doesn't really say what it's for. Like, Dean's just like, "Oh, so we're gonna trap Raphael with a nice vinaigrette?" and Cas just goes, "No." [G laughs] Love him!

G: It's so funny 'cause every single time Dean starts a new question and he has to again the next sentence because Cas just doesn't engage with anything, and I support that!

C: Mm-hm, yeah. The ritual has to happen at sunrise. Yeah, more of the question and the answer thing where Dean's like, "Isn't trapping this guy like trapping a hurricane with a butterfly net?" And Cas goes, "No, it's harder." [G laughing] [G: Love that.] It wasn't, though. It was very easy. Dean asks, "Do we have any chance of surviving this?" And Cas goes, "You do." And Dean does not go like, "So are you sure we should do this?" [G: Yeah.] He just jumps immediately on the acceptance train, even though, like, in 5.01, he was like, [G, fake teary: "Dammit, Cas! Dammit, Cas!"] "Cas, I'm so sad you died! You should have saved yourself!" And this is like, the guy who killed Cas like, the last go-around. Like, you'd think that would reactivate the "Cas, you should just save yourself" thing.

G: I think Dean is just thinking about the last night on Earth, like, immediately. [laughs] Like, he has no thought beyond "Oh, last night on Earth." That is the only way I can rationalize this sentence.

C: Yeah, he thinks he haus Covid. I think the explanation that makes sense to me is that the "Dammit, Cas! You should have saved yourself" stuff was primarily just out of his sense of [both] guilt [G: Yeah.] that he was the one who caused Cas to die by telling him to do certain things, it wasn't really that much about Cas.

G: But now Cas is choosing to die himself! Yeah.

C: Yeah, this is like, Cas came up with this idea, so like, if he wants to die about it, then, like, he's a grownass angel and Dean's not gonna tell him to not do it.

G: But Dean also did say that they were friends, and I feel like he would give a shit.

C: I think he gives an amount of a shit, but like, not that much. [G: Yeah, okay.] So yeah, I take back when I said Destiel was real in 5.01. It's not. [laughs] So.

G: I just do not think this is particularly- [C: In character?] Yeah. Would Dean really not care?For many other situations-

C: Dean's already of the mindset that "Everyone's gonna die in the Apocalypse, so let's just go down fighting," so I don't think he does care that much.

G: Oh, yeah. Because that's what he says at the end of 5.01, like, "Whatever, man. I'm gonna fight hard, but it's not gonna do anything." So maybe this is like, a continuation of that.

C: Yeah, so I think he just doesn't care about like, anyone dying except maybe Sam. And like, I don't even know if he cares about Sam dying that much because it's not like, he's like, calling to check in with him while Sam's away, so yeah.

G: I mean, he doesn't even care about Bobby's well-being. [laughs] He's not checked on Bobby this whole time.

C: Yeah. No, exactly. Doesn't he eventually build him a ramp? But then it's like, [both laughing] how's Bobby been getting in and out of the house before that? [G: I don't know.] Hospitals don't give you a ride back. Like, someone has to drive you. So like, maybe Dean did- [G: Maybe Cas.] or yeah, no, you're right. Cas could have just transported Bobby directly into his house or something. Maybe he's bringing Bobby groceries and like, while they're chatting and having a good time, he's like, "Oh, by the way, I'm trying to find God. Where's Dean right now?" [G laughs] [G: Exactly. We're back to Cobby being so real it's unreal.] I mean, Rufus could be coming over. We just don't know because it wasn't important to Cas's journey.

G: What is Rufus and Bobby's ship name? And how do we add Cas in there? [C: Bufus? Uh...] [laughs] Bufastiel? [C: Bufas.] It's Bufastiel! It's so real.

C: I guess we didn't ask this many questions about Pamela, well, okay, 'cause Pamela acts like someone who has friends, so I just assumed that she had friends. I guess Bobby is also a person who has friends.

G: It's because with Pamela, like, her blindness was presented as "Oh, well, she's blind now," and sometimes even in a comedic way, they're doing it, you know, with regards to Sam and Dean, versus Bobby, who we did see when he was upset, and we are seeing now.

C: That's true. We didn't see Pamela being upset when it first happened. So we see her, like, the first time we see her is a few weeks later, when she's better adjusted. [G: Yeah, she's already like, well-adjusted about it, yeah.] But yeah, okay, I'm just gonna assume that Rufus is staying over for a bit as Bobby gets used to navigating the house. Love is so real! They're about to get divorced and married again. I can feel it in my heart.

Yeah, Dean immediately was like, "I don't give a fuck." So he goes, "So odds are, you're a dead man tomorrow," and Cas goes, "Yes." And Dean goes, "Well, last night on Earth. What are your plans?" [laughing] And Cas goes, "I just thought I'd sit here quietly." [G: Love you.] He's soo real. [G laughs] He's just like me for real. [G: Iconic.] And he's just so beautiful in this scene. [G laughs] Like, the lighting is really- it's treating him well. 'Cause this is an abandoned house, with like, I think, like, cracks in the windows. [G: Slats, yeah.] So it's like, he's like, mostly in the dark, but like, [G: Some light is passing through.] the light is on like, face, so like, one of his eyes is like, completely black, except for like, one light reflection thing in the middle, and his other eye is like, normal.

G: And it's like a cool-toned moonlight thing. You know, it's very pretty. I love Castiel! [C: Yeah.] He's just gonna sit here quietly. He's gonna pull out his phone, open AO3. [both laugh] Good for him. [C: What is he reading on AO3?] He's reading Aziraphale/Crowley, what else? [C laughing] Just like me for real. [C: You're so right.] He's complaining that they're not the number one ship on AO3, and instead, it's Destiel.

C: Yeah, he's like, "I don't even like this clown. What the fuck is going on here?" [G laughs] No, he does like this clown. I need to respect Cas's bad taste.

G: Yeah. You need to respect Cas's ability to choose by respecting his terrible choices [both laugh] in love interests.

C: Yeah. Dean isn't willing to accept that Cas just wants to sit here quietly. And he goes, "Come on. Anything? Booze? Women?"

G: [laughing] And Cas exhibits the first emotion he has ever exhibited in his life ever, I think. [C laughs] It's great! Why did he-

C: Yeah, where he's like, "What?"

G: He's like, "What?" And then he starts like, rubbing his neck and like, looking over his shoulder, and like, fidgeting or whatever. And it's like, why are you doing this, Cas?

C: I feel like this episode- I think watching it full, like, I think this episode, it was believable to me that Cas does want to fuck women. [G: You think so?] I think a lot of people say that like, they're like, "Oh my god, he's like, clearly not into it in this episode." But I think the acting choices made like, I would be like, "Yeah, he does want to fuck women." [G: You think s2o?] I don't know. What do you think? Yeah.

G: I could not- I mean, later on, he's scared to hell and back about everything. So I'm like, "Well, okay, that's- I don't think that's the case." But here- but I mean, his complaint also was that it's a den of iniquity. I feel like it was just like, some woman he meets, he'll be like, "Okay." But because they're in a brothel, he's like, "Ugh. We're in a den of iniquity."

C: I think we're supposed to read the nervousness and the sweating like, "Oh, like, he's just so horny." [G laughs] And like, it's not too different from like, movies about like, teen boys who like, really wanna lose their virginity, and they're like, really nervous and sweaty 'cause like, they're like, hard as fuck, like, when they see the back of a pretty girl's head or something. And I think they're trying to play Cas as that kind of a character.

G: I see that vision here in this scene of like, he's, you know, acting shy, acting demure, whatever the fuck he's trying to do.

C: Yeah, like, he looks- 'cause it's like, he's not even looking at Dean, and then Dean says, "Women," and Cas looks up like, "Huh?" And then he quickly looks away.

G: Yeah. Like, maybe he just wants to meet a woman. [laughs] Maybe he doesn't even wanna-

C: Has he even- Yeah, he hasn't even talked to a single woman before. He's like, "What are those?"

G: He's like, "I want to do the entire shebang, but I want to, like, you know, meet a woman," and then, like, he wants to move up the ladder, [laughs] and Dean is pushing it to the very top of the ladder, and he's like, "Oh, no!" [C laughs]

C: Has Cas ever talked to a woman? [G: No, exactly.] Like, Anna's like an angel [G: No, like a human woman.], yeah, okay, yeah. Well, I guess he talked to Anna briefly before she got her grace back, so. [G laughs] [G: That's a semi-human woman.] That's a semi-human woman. I think that's it! [G: Yeah, I don't think he's ever-] He hasn't even talked to Ruby, who's not a human woman, either. Yeah. I mean, okay, he had to talk to the human woman he possessed in order to get her consent in like, the 1800s, or whenever that was.

G: He talked to Claire, [laughs] I suppose, but that's not- [C: Yeah, that's a human girl.] Yeah, a human girl. I don't know.

C: Yeah, he didn't talk to Amelia. He just shot her a look and kept walking.

G: Yeah, like, maybe, in 5.10, when Dean was trying to hit up Jo, [laughs] Cas was trying to hit up Ellen. Who knows? [C laughing] It may as well have happened.

C: Exactly. Due to how [laughing] Dean and Cas is like a son-father relationship [G laughing], according to that one person.

G: [laughing] That view is absolutely crazy!

C: The way Supernatural treats women as like, an alluring alien species to men is quite crazy. [G: Yeah.] But anyway, so.

G: I mean, here in this episode, the only women are Leslie [C: Lindsey.]- [laughs] sorry, Lindsey and Charity, right? [C: Chastity, yeah.] [laughing] Chastity! [C laughing]

C: 0 out of 2, Grey.

G: [laughing] 0 out of 2, yeah. Well, yeah.

C: Cas is looking away, and then Dean goes like, "You have been with women before, right?" And it's like, why the fuck would you assume that? That's such a strange thing to assume? [G: Yeah.] And he's like, "Or an angel, at least? You mean to tell me you've never been up there doing a little cloud-seeding." Like, Dean. That's disgusting.

G: [laughing] "Cloud-seeding" is the most disgusting way to describe sex, but okay, go, Dean. Maybe Dean has a breeding kink. Have we considered?

C: What's the word for amatonormative but with sex? Like, whatever that is, Dean's like, being that so hard right now. [G: Yeah.] Like, Cas had other things going on. Like, first off, he's not in a body that often, and like, maybe he could think that there's some form of like, metaphysical sex equivalent for angels, but like, you don't know that that's the case. So like, first, Cas isn't in a body often. Second, if he is like, in a body, then like, I don't think he should fuck, ethically. [G laughs] [G: Yeah.] But this episode doesn't care about that. [G: Doesn't care, doesn't give a shit.] And also, I'd say that when Anna was talking to Dean in like, "Heaven and Hell" or the one before- in "I Know What You Did Last Summer," I feel like she almost implies- 'cause she was like, "Oh, like, in Heaven, like, you can't have feelings, or like, want things" or whatever the fuck, so like, I feel like that episode was trying to imply that like, angels don't fuck, and that Anna could only do it because, like, she didn't have her grace back, and like, she's not interested in Dean when she's an angel. Like, they do drop that later, 'cause, like, Lucifer had to fuck for Jack to exist and all that. So I guess maybe here, they're just dropping it now. Which is fine. I think that's a fine development in like, angel stuff. [G: It's just confusing that Dean thinks-] Yeah, Dean would just be so hard on this.

G: [laughs] So hard, yeah. [C laughs] Again, this episode is written by Jeremy Carver, [C: It is.] and, 4.10, Sera Gamble. Who wrote 4.11? Or, no, 4.09?

C: 4.09 is Sera Gamble. I thought 4.10 was a Kripke. Yeah, 4.10 is a Kripke, directed by J. Miller Tobin, the director of this episode.

G: Yeah. And I don't know. Maybe it's just- like the setup for- For example, like, there is an awareness for Dean already that having sex with someone when there's another person in there who can't consent is like, bad, because, like, Sam brings it up. Like, it's a substantial part of Sam's story. Like, it's supposed to be something you pay attention to.

C: Oh, you're saying that Sam specifically brought it up when he talked about sleeping with Ruby in 4.09 because he wanted to let Dean know that he wasn't fucking someone with like, a vessel in there?

G: Yeah. And also, like, making it aware that like, "This is why I think Ruby doesn't have bad intentions because even for the vessel choosing, she listened to me, and she acted accordingly," stuff like that. [C: Mm-hm.] So yeah, I feel like there is- should be, at least, a thought in Dean's head of like, "This is not supposed to be correct." So there is a thing with Dean already that will follow through to this kind of thinking. So it is confusing for Dean, in all aspects, to be saying this.

C: Yeah. I agree with that statement.

G: I don't know. I feel like there are times in Supernatural where it's like, "Well, the character would do that," and so whatever. But this is one of those times where I will defend Dean a little bit and say, Jeremy Carver, I think, is the one who should be blamed for this. [C: Apologize, yeah.] Yeah, because the story in itself does not recognize that it's something that's even worth considering. Like, they didn't like consider it and like, "Ah, never mind." Like, it didn't even think of it, yeah.

C: Yeah. So Cas looks kind of embarrassed, and then he goes like, [both] "Look, I've never had occasion, okay?" Demisexual Cas win forever and ever. Dean goes, "Alright." And then he grabs his jacket, [G: Puts it on.] and then he says, really, one of the lines of all time, which is, "Let me tell you something. There are two things I know for certain. One, [both] Bert and Ernie are gay. [G laughs] Two, you are not gonna die a virgin. Not on my watch. [both] Let's go." [G: And Cas follows.] What is this? Why did Dean say this? First Thelma and Louise, and now "Bert and Ernie are gay." Like, that's too many per episode. [G: Yeah.] Like, space this out, bro.

G: Like, does Dean even realize that he's being gay for that poor gay dead intern or whatever the fuck this episode? Like, what is this? I don't know. It's just, Jeremy Carver, explain yourself! For many reasons, but also this one.

C: Well, I think it's just a continuation of the like, "It's funny that Cas doesn't know he's being gay." kind of joke.

G: I mean, on the outside. On the show, like, why would Dean say it? Like, Dean isn't thinking, "Ha, it's so funny that Cas is acting gay." [laughs]

C: I think Dean is thinking, "Cas has never fucked a woman? That's kind of gay. [both laugh] Just like Bert and Ernie." [G laughing] I do think that's his mindset. [G screams]

G: So his solution is to have Cas go have straight sex at the gay pride parade?

C: Exactly. Just normal sex, nothing too weird. A regular woman without a beard. [G laughs] So yeah. [G: Oh, god. Well.] I guess she is the beard in this situation, etc etc. So Cas follows-

G: But Cas is bisexual, to me. [C: Yeah, he is bisexual.] And also to everyone. [C: Yeah, and also to everyone. But also not to everyone.] But also, I respect [laughs]- I respect everybody's opinions, blah blah blah.

C: Unless you think that Cas is like, heteroromantic heterosexual. Then, I don't respect your opinions. As Cas gets up- Okay, remember how the oil is very special and very rare? And he set it down like, on the fucking edge of this rickety old table [G: They literally leave it there.] that's been in this house. Yeah, they leave it there, and when he gets up, the table jostles, and like, the vase like, wobbles, like, on the very edge of the table. Like, bro, you have got to secure that thing.

G: Well, he's very excited to finally talk to a woman.

C: Yeah, finally learn what a woman is. [laughs]

G: Sam, back in the bar, he's clearing out like, a table or something, and somebody walks in and goes, "Hi, Sam." And Sam is trying to ignore them, but eventually they come up to Sam like, directly, and it's like, "Sam! Sam!" And Lindsey, who is, again, very nosy about everything, just goes, "Sam? What happened to Keith?" Sam is pretending to be like, "Huh? What's that?" And he turns around, there's these couple of guys- Tim, Reggie and Steve, apparently. And Lindsey is like, "Oh, they're calling you Sam." And Sam goes, "Uh, Sam's my middle name." [laughs] Lovely! And Lindsey goes, "Oh, it's Keith Sam? Man, I'm sorry." That's so rude!

C: That is a pretty bad, but it's not like, that bad. [G: Yeah.] There are worse names.

G: The hunter tries to save it by being like, "Oh, it's Samuel. So it's Keith Samuel. So it's not as dumb as it sounds." I think that Keith Samuel is a very normal name, and also Keith Sam is a normal name. And also Sam is like, a nickname, automatically, for Samuel, for most guys who have that name. [C: Yeah.] So like, I don't understand why you just think it's Sam. I don't know. I think Lindsey is so annoying. [C laughs] I'm sorry. Am I being too harsh on her?

C: It's not her fault. She's a woman on Supernatural.

G: Well. She's being nosy. [laughing] I keep saying that! But she asks if they're friends. And one of them say, "Oh, we're hunting buddies with his dad, and Samuel is actually quite a hunter himself." And Lindsey goes, "Oh, you killed deer and stuff?" And the other hunter goes, "Yeah and stuff." But yeah, Sam invites them for drinks, and as they, you know, sit down and talk, they mention that Bobby called and directed them here. They're still investigating. And they say, like, "Oh, Bobby told us you were off-limits, but that's fine in theory, but we could really use more hands on the deck here!"

C: Like, skill issue. Like, Sam and Dean, almost always just hunt, the two of them, and like, they never die, except for the times that they do, so like, that's on you. But also, Sam and Dean are, between them, like, were hoarding the only two weapons that can actually kill demons. [G: That's true.] So that's probably why they succeeded at a much higher rate than people who can literally only exorcise.

G: Also, when they do die, they get brought back to life, and I feel like [laughs] bit of a benefit, that one. [C: Yeah, yeah, that is a bonus.] Yeah. But Sam is saying, like, "I can't. It's personal." And they bring up the point where it's like, "Well, is this baggage so heavy it can't be stowed away for the Apocalypse?" Yeah. And they're doing this thing where Sam is like, "Oh, I'm sorry," and they're like, "Oh, well, we heard it the first time, but, you know." etc etc. Later on, Sam says sorry again, it's like, "Just because you repeat that doesn't mean that it matters." Ugh. People are so fucking annoying. As they go leave, Lindsey just goes, [C: So rude.] "Okay, what the fuck was up with that?" And yeah, she goes, "Enough with the kung fu wandering the earth thing. I'm gonna buy you dinner, and we're gonna talk." And Sam says, "Oh, I really can't." But she insists that the only way to avoid bloodshed is to say yes. [C: So annoying.] You know what? This entire episode, I was thinking, like, "Is she secretly a demon?"

C: Yeah. I also thought that she was a demon. I was like, "Clearly, she's just trying to get information out of Sam for like, demon reasons." [laughs]

G: Yeah, later on, one of the hunters, right, is holding her by the neck with a knife, and when the knife gets put down, we see a close-up shot of her face acting relieved. And I was like, "That's because she's a demon, and she's about to show her demon thing right now," [C laughs] except she never does. And apparently, she was human this whole way through, and she's just very interested in Sam.

C: [laughs] Yeah, she's just like this for real. [G: Yeah.] I don't know. This sucks. Like, you can't coerce people to go on a date with you. I mean, you can, but you shouldn't.

G: I mean, this entire time, I was thinking like, "I need to be nice to her, because, I mean, I understand that she's being annoying, but, you know, she's a demon, and that's what she ought to be, so it's fine." [C lauguhs] And then she didn't even turn out to be a demon! So I was like, "Wait, what the fuck was that all about?"

C: Yeah. I think we're supposed to be charmed, and I'm sure there's like, a point in my life, like, when I was a young teen or something that I would be charmed by her. [G: Oh, yeah.] But currently, I'm not.

G: I've had some one do something akin to this to me when I was, I think, in ninth grade. And then he was like, "We should be friends." And I say, "No, I don't need any more friends." [both laugh] And then he goes, "Well, we can, you know, we can just start slow. Like, I'll message you [C laughing], on like, I don't know." And I said, "If you message me, I'll block you. Please don't do it." [laughs] [C: Good.] So I've never been interested in the getting to know each other thing. Like, I either know you or don't. Shut the fuck up. Go away. [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] I think it's also because I'm not interested in men at that point, so like, I really hated him. But like, okay, here, let's put ourselves in Sam's situation where it's like, he does like women, [C: Yeah.] and here's a very pretty woman doing this.

C: Yeah, he did recently go through the Ruby portrayal, so that is a factor. He also recently had a dream about Jess, [G: Yeah] so like, there are these things haunting him, and yeah, maybe it's like, "Under normal circumstances, I would be interested in you, but I've resolved to not let myself get close to anyone because it means they'll get hurt. And also I have like, these past people haunting me." [G: Yeah.] So like, yeah, 'cause he says, "Lindsey, I can't." It's not like, "I don't [both] want to." Like, "I can't" is a different energy.

G: Yeah. But like, the thing is, Sam really can't. Like, even when he was trying to tell her his life story and be earnest and truthful about it, he can't. Like, he can't go into the details. He can't give any specifics. Like, I think "I can't" is not a testament of "I don't want to." It's just that "Whether I want to or not, I literally actually cannot."

C: Yeah, so like, I guess there is the like, maybe he does kind of want to, but it's just not really on the table right now. [G: Yeah.] But he looks so bummed after she insists on going on a date with him. [G: Yeah! He doesn't want to, also.] His head like, goes down. He looks so sad. Yeah. So it's like, all the acting choices point to like, "he doesn't want to." But like, the writing choices for the episode overall point to "he does want to." So there's a disconnect there. [G: Yeah.]

C: Yeah, so we are at a brothel, and like, the setup is that you're just like, at a bunch of tables, there's drinks, and then the people who work there sort of walk around and talk, and then like, pick out people that they're interested in. [G: I suppose so.] Yeah, so Dean is drinking, and Cas is like- He looks sweaty and a bit red-faced and wide-eyed, and he's just sort of staring [laughs] into the distance or whatever. Dean's telling him to relax. And Cas goes, "This is a den of iniquity. I should not be here." I mean, the thing is- Okay, later, we do establish that Cas is not homophobic. But like- [G: Or is he?] [laughs] Or is he? Well, yeah, I think we're supposed to think that Godstiel-

G: When did they establish it? [C: The Godstiel-] No, but he's not killing that guy for being-

C: Yeah, it was about hypocrisy. It's not about homophobia, actually. [G laughs] Yeah. So, I mean, we'll I guess we'll never know whether or not Cas is homophobic.

G: I mean, in 15 whatever that episode is, the one where he hunts with Jack- [C: Oh, yeah!] That kid gets hate-crimed to hell and back, and it's like, "We must forgive the sinner who killed this kid who got hate-crimed or whatever." [laughs] Like, okay, well, maybe Cas is homophobic.

C: Maybe he is homophobic! [both laugh] You're right. Okay. So he's homophobic. [G laughs] And he's anti-sex work. [G: Oh, god.] What a man.

G: What was that Wanni said? Like, [laughing] "Cas is homophobic because he wants to be the only gay person on Earth." [C, laughing: Yeah, no he literally does!] He wants to be so special.

C: He's like, "I'm not special? Like, no! Like, go away!" Yeah. They just seem to be doing the classic angel thing where it's like, "I think lust is bad." Like, he's just like a little Catholic boy at a strip club for the first time in a coming-of-age movie or whatever.

G: I don't even think it's a "lust is bad" situation. [laughs] I think it's like, "We're at a brothel." Like, if he was, again, if he was just having sex with [overlapping] a woman on like, a bar something, it would be a different attitude, I suppose.

C: No, actually, Dean thinks that Cas has ability to pull. [laughing] [G: I mean, given what we see her-] He wasn't like, "Let's try a bar."

G: Given what we're seeing here, maybe Dean's woes are affirmed by how Cas is acting right now.

C: [laughs] Yeah, I think has does have no ability to pull. Yeah, 'cause I feel like my first instinct would be like, "Let's hit up a bar first," 'cause it's like, that's free.

G: Yeah. It would be, "Let's hit a bar. Cas, take off your coat, roll up your sleeves, take off the tie, take off the-" [laughs] I'm playing dress-up with Cas in my head right now.

C: Yeah, yeah. You're Picrew-ing him. So it's back to "Cas is against sex work"? [laughs] Like, where have we landed?

G: No, I think so, yeah.

C: Well, that's not good. But it makes sense for the Supernatural writers to decide. A woman, Chastity, approaches them. She asks Cas what his name is, and like, he does this thing where he like, looks at her face and then looks nervous, and then like, looks down, but I can't tell if he's like, looking away or like, at her boobs or whatever. Like, I'm not sure where his eyes. G: He's just- He's very nervous, like-] Yeah, he's nervous. And Dean says, "Cas. His name is Cas. What's your name?" And her name is Chastity, and Dean is amused at this 'cause of the irony or whatever [G: Mm-hm.], and he goes, "Well, he likes you. You like him." Cas is still just like, not really moving that much and like, breathing and stuff. And then she sort of pulls him up, and she's gonna lead him out of the room, but before he goes, Dean like, stops him, and he's like, "Listen, take this." And he gives Cas like, a wad of cash, and he goes, "If she asks for a credit card, no!" Which, like, [laughs] Cas does not have a credit card, Dean Winchester. [laughs]

G: [laughing] That's why you would say no! [C laughing] What does Dean think is gonna happen here? Like, Cas will access Dean's credit card- What's happening? Dean's fake credit card.

C: Yeah, okay, well, the joke- This is just a Jeremy Carver joke where he's like, [G: She's gonna cheat you out of your credit card, yeah.] "Brothels are sketchy, so like, they're gonna overcharge." Like, it doesn't make any sense for the actual situation. Dean like, doesn't think Cas has a credit card, and like, he's not really- it doesn't make sense for him as a character to be saying any of this. It's just Jeremy Carver being like, "I want to make jokes about sex work right now."

G: Yeah, it could just be also what Dean would say, to like, anyone who's going- who he's taking to a brothel for the first time. So it's like, this is his script.

C: He just has like, a Google Doc that he runs through first. [G laughs] [G: Yeah.] And he also says, "Just stick to the basics, okay? Do not order off the menu." And then, "Go get her, tiger," which is what he says in 9.06, isn't it?

G: Yeah. This starts Dean's like, fascination to Cas having sex. [C: Yeah, I do hear about triangulation.] [laughs] No, I mean, so it's this, right? Nora, April, that waiter- what's her name? Maddy? [C: Mandy.] Mandy, yeah. Dean's just there. [C: Is there anyone else?] I don't think so. I think that's it. Cas doesn't talk to women! He talks to Charlie. He talks to- [C: There's not that many women on Supernatural.] He talks to Eileen. [C: He does talk to Eileen, very briefly.] I don't even if he- He talks to Charlie, of course, and Rowena. [C: Also, he talks to Meg! But yeah.] That's true. Well, there's this one scene where they're calling Rowena, and- So it's a phone thing, and they can't see each other, and they're all talking. And then Cas speaks, and Rowena goes, "Oh, you're there! Hello, tweety-pie." And then Cas, like, puts his hands in his pocket, stands up, and then goes, "Hello." Ah! I love Castiel. [C: Yeah.] He's so flattered.

C: Yeah. He's cute. Love that guy. And he is bisexual. [G: So it goes.] So it goes. [both laugh] And then, oh right, Cas is still for a bit, and then Dean goes, "Don't make me push you." And then Cas does follow behind Chastity, and then Dean, like, sees another employee there who sits down with him to have a drink.

G: And as this is happening, Dean hears a woman scream. It's Chastity, and she's saying like, "Get out of my face! Leave me alone!" So Dean like, rushes in. And Cas is standing there with his like, coat slightly over his shoulder.

C: Yeah, it's off one shoulder and his tie is slightly loosened, and his shirt has like, three-ish buttons undone.

G: Yeah. Chastity is throwing money at him, right? [C: No, I think she threw like, her shoes at him or something.] Is it? But like, Cas like, ducks, and, like, you know, swats it away, which I thought was real fun. But yeah, Chastity, not having a moment, and, you know. She's saying like, "Screw you! I'll kill you!" And then she sees Dean, and she goes like, "Screw you, too!" And then, you know, she walks out, and Dean is looking at Cas like, "What the hell did you do?" And Cas goes, "I don't know."

C: Yeah, and "What the hell did you just do?" like, I don't know. The vibe is just, "How did you fumble that?" [G: Oh, really? You think so?] That was the vibe I got. Like, he clearly is not like, at all worried about Chastity's wellbeing.

G: Yeah, this is delivered as like, amused instead of "[worried] Did you do anything wrong?" you know.

C: Yeah, I would be worried that the overstep-social-boundaries guy overstepped a boundary in this situation.

G: Yeah. But Cas says, "I don't know. I just looked her in the eyes and told her it wasn't her fault that her father, Gene, ran off. It was because [overlapping] he hated his job at the post office."

C: I love him so much! [G laughs] First, how did he know that? Like, is he a mind reader? Like, what was it?

G: I don't know. I don't know. But also, do you think if Cas told Dean like, "It's not your fault that John blah blah blah. It's because blah blah blah." [laughs] Do you think it would fix Dean? Because-

C: No, I think Dean would yell, "Screw you, jerk!" and throw his shoes at him. [laughs]

G: Exactly! Like, there's a reason why Cas didn't do this for Dean even though he has brought up John many, many times. And he should know that this is not something you should bring up with people many, many times.

C: Well, okay, like, what could he tell Dean about John that would fix him? Like, John was like, mean to Dean and didn't care about him at points in time. Like, there's no- Dean has the more flattering view of John.

G: No, but like, you know, like, Dean has self-loathing and thinks, like, "Oh, my fault," blah blah blah, like, perhaps, you know?

C: So it would be, "It's not your fault that your dad was mean to you. He was just a jerk."? [G: Yeah, why not?] Well, okay, so I guess we don't know why Cas knows that, but we assume he has some form of like, memory-reading powers and somehow-

G: He knows what's bothering her, yeah.

C: Well, okay, is the thought that that was something she was thinking about while they were having sex? [G: No. I don't know.] Yeah. 'Cause I was wondering what could have prompted Cas to say this. It was like, what? Like, did she call him "daddy" while she was unbuttoning his shirt? Like, why would that become relevant?

G: Well, I mean, Dean does say that, like, "The whole industry runs on absent fathers. It's the natural order." So if we are going to go with the mindset that- [C: It was just something she was thinking about at the time or whatever?] Yeah, if you're gonna go with that mindset that's like, "She's here because of this," which is what Dean is implying, like, it's reasonable.

C: You're saying that Cas told her that to tell her to quit her job?

G: [laughs] I mean, Sam does tell a stripper once to be a nurse, right?

C: [laughing] Oh, yeah, like, "You can go to nursing school." [both laughing] God! Like, leave her alone!

G: [laughing] This is something that Supernatural just does!

C: Yeah, okay, yeah, I do think I typically put this scene in my demisexual Cas box. [G: He was trying to connect?] Yeah, he's like, "I need to speedrun the emotional connection part [G laughs] just so I can have a better time. [laughs] Um, what's something really personal I can say?"

C: Okay, you said what Dean's response is. Danica and I paused for five minutes [laughs] trying to figure out what the fuck he was going for with that. 'Cause I think the first read of it- 'cause it's like, Cas says that, and Dean goes like, "Oh, no, man." And then Cas goes, “What?” And then, yeah, as you said, Dean says, "This whole industry runs on absent fathers. It's the natural order." And like, I think, both our first readings of that is like, "Don't tell workers things that would potentially help them with their daddy issues because then we won't have enough sex workers."

G: No, it's "Don't bring it up, because it's probably a sensitive thing for her and for many of the girls here."

C: But Cas already knew she had an absent father. How's Dean's thing adding anything helpful- How would Dean's thing help Cas know that it's a sensitive topic?

G: I think it's part of the "When you're in certain social situations, there are topics that are off-limits. And here, this is a topic that should have been off-limits, Cas."

C: How is "This is a common thing" equivalent to "This is off-limits."

G: Because the chances of someone being extra sensitive about this is higher.

C: But how is it- Cas already knew that the chances of her having an absent father was 100%, and Dean didn't say anything about sensitivity. He just said that this is a common thing, which Cas already knows was true for the one person he talked to. I don't see how that translates into "This is a sensitive topic."

G: Well, no, he doesn't know that it's true from the one person he talks to. Dean is making a generalization about the industry, and Cas just talked to one person.

C: No, I'm saying that Cas already knew that Chastity had an absent father. How is knowing that several of her coworkers may also have an absent father, how does that make it clear that this is a topic you don't bring up.

G: I think, again, as I've said, like, certain social situations, there are topics that are just off limit, and, like, an entire industry of people, as Dean would say, being "ran on absent fathers" means that for this specific type of people, and especially when they're doing this specific kind of work, don't talk about it.

C: But- how do- Like, "The teacher industry is run on people wanting to help kids, so don't talk about helping kids to teachers" would be the-

G: You know that's different! Because wanting to help kids is not a negative thing.

C: I don't think it is. I don't think Dean's statement makes any sense- [laughs] It could be. [G, laughing: What the fuck does "It could be" mean?] [laughs] I don't know. For some people, they'd be like, "How could you do such a thing? It sounds so annoying." But okay, no, I don't get it.

G: That's more of a "That's benevolent" thing, whereas here, it's like, "This probably traumatic thing happened to these people, so don't bring it up."

C: But how is saying "This common" equivalent to "This is traumatic." Like, the trauma is just that you're supposed to know that having an absent father is bad, which Cas didn't know, [G: Well, he knew, 'cause, you know.] and Dean saying this doesn't help. Okay, well, if Cas already knew that it's a traumatic thing, then, like, clearly, it's just like, "Cas will still say it, even if it's a traumatic thing." So like, how is saying "This is common" at all close to saying "You shouldn't say that"?

G: Because bringing up a traumatic thing versus bringing up a traumatic thing that has directly led you to this very moment are very different things. If, like, outside of sex work, Cas said this to Chastity, it'll probably be fine, [C: It wouldn't be fine either way, I'm pretty sure.] but you're in a brothel right now, and she's about to service you, so don't bring it up. Yeah, but it would probably wouldn't bring up the same vitriolic reaction, right? [C: Okay? I still-] Because they're not in this setting, and so it's like, "If you're going to be in the sex work industry as a customer, do not bring this up because this is not the place to do it."

C: Dean is laughing and saying "It's the natural order." That's like, a very different energy than like, "[serious] This is a traumatic thing that led her to this very moment, so don't bring it up." You know what I mean?

G: It still is, though. Like, "It's the natural order." Like, to Dean, this is what most girls here have experienced in the past. So again, this is just like, a line you don't cross in this specific social setting.

C: I still- I still don't. I think it's Dean's tone combined with his word choice, aka everything about the line. I don't see it.

G: Okay, wait. I'm going to try to think of a similar example.

C: Okay, I guess when do you think of the example, can you phrase it in a way [laughing] where you're also a misogynistic man so I can understand it better in comparison to Dean?

G: Yeah, [laughs] this is also one of my worries, because now I'm coming out as- [laughs] I'm coming off as like, I don't know, [C, laughing: As "Dean's being sensitive and nice"?] anti-sex work or whatever. Yeah, no, my point is like, I can very visibly see the line that Dean is following here.

C: He just- Okay, sure, I guess maybe it's just his tone that's preventing me from seeing that, because, like, if I hear that sentence, I'm like, well, first, that's not true. But second, if that was true, it would be something I would take seriously instead of thinking that it adds to the humor of the situation, and Dean thinks it adds to the humor of the situation. [G: Oh, he definitely does.] So it's hard for me to understand what he means because our reactions to the same thing are very different.

G: [laughing] Put yourself- Again, I'm gonna say the same thing to you. [C: Okay.] Put yourself in the situation of a misogynistic man!

C: Okay. [laughs] Okay. I'm a misogynistic man. [G laughs] Okay, okay. Cas has left. He said that- Okay, okay, I wrote down two possible ways to read it. The first is like, "Don't improve how she thinks about herself and like, her dad because it means that, like, the industry will suffer, and there won't be enough sex workers." And the second one [G: No, that's not-]- Yeah, no, I mean, that's when I already said earlier that you already had an issue. [G: Yeah.] [G laughing] And then my second one that I had down was "This is a common enough thing in the industry that it's not worth bringing up."

G: Yeah, I think that- That's the second one. [C: But that's different from-] But also, like, what's your saying is- [C: That's different from the trauma thing.] The way you're trying to phrase this is like, "Oh, so Cas said this to improve her situation so she'll quit," [C: Mm-hm.] well, that's not what he's doing at all. First of all, he's not improving the situation at all. He's just saying something.

C: Well, he didn't improve the situation, but he could've thought that he improved the situation. Earlier, we compared it to Sam telling a stripper to go to nursing school.

G: If we are assuming that this is a "For you to quit," well, I mean, you said earlier that you think Cas wanted to sleep with her.

C: Yeah, I do think that Cas wanted to sleep with her.

G: So that doesn't follow through. So it's not for her quit.

C: One can want to sleep with her and also think that they should quit their job as a sex worker. Like, you can be physically attracted to her but still be anti-sex work.

G: This is true. Well, I mean, I don't think for her to feel better immediately for her to quit.

C: And it's not even that Cas wants her to quit. I think that Dean is like, saying like, "Oh, no, like, you inadvertently gave her information that could help her quit."

G: No! Okay, why would she quit? Even if, okay, your dad didn't actually hate you-

C: Because Dean thinks that people are only sex workers because they think their dads hate them.

G: No, not that their dads hate them. It's that their dads are absent! Very different things.

C: Okay, but then- yes, okay. But like, there's also like, the- Okay. But if we're going with your thing of like, the trauma of your dad leaving you [G: It's a faux-pas.], like, certain information could lessen your negative feelings about it. What Dean is saying is that the negative feelings about it are what lead people to sex work [G: No!], so like, one could presume that if the negative feelings are reduced, one could quit.

G: Absence of a parent is not just about feelings! I would even say it's not primarily about feelings when you're young.

C: Okay, so is Dean mostly talking about the financial situation of being raised by a single mother? G: Yeah! Of course! [laughing] Probably.

C: But okay, well, that would be if Dean thinks about these things, and what I think that Dean is operating off of is how everyone was making jokes about daddy issues and sex workers. [G: Okay, and then?] which is fully the emotional aspect of it. It's not the financial aspect of an absentee father. I think that Dean is only talking about the emotional aspect of it.

G: Why would you think that Dean is only talking about the emotional aspect?

C: Because of the prevalence of the idea that daddy issues lead people to sex work.

G: Is that a prevalent idea? Daddy issues, specifically? [C: Yeah.] Isn't the financial-

C: When people talk about daddy issues, they're only talking about the emotional aspect. They're not talking about-

G: Vehemently not true.

C: Okay, you think that when people talk about daddy issues, they're talking about the financial stress of having to raise a child alone [G: Yes!] and how that changes that child because of the financial stress?

G: Yeah! I mean, financial stress, the lack of-

C: No! That is not what people talk about when they talk about daddy issues.

G: [laughs] Okay! What- I think it's like- [C: It's the psychological thing.] Yeah, the instability that is enacted on your psyche because of the instability in other aspects of social and financial-

C: People only talk about it when they're talking about the emotional aspect of it. Like, people talk about it when they talk about like, women like, going after older men.

G: "I feel bad. I feel bad because my dad left, and it left us in a financially precarious situation." Like, that is about psychological-

C: People would not describe that as daddy issues. People wouldn't describe that as daddy issues.

G: "I'm mad at my dad because he left, and it left us at a precarious financial situation." That's daddy issues.

C: No, people use it to refer to like, women going after older men because they want like, validation from them-

G: Financial stability. [laughing]

C: [laughing] No, they aren't talking about that part! They're talking about attachment styles!

G: [laughing] Okay, fine, maybe I've misunderstood everything in the world! Okay. [laughs] That kind of validation, like, is backed up by the security of the blah blah blah brought about by the blah blah blah.

C: But that is not what people are thinking about or talking about when they talk about daddy issues.

G: I think, if I'm being honest, that Dean perhaps have a keener understanding of daddy issues than the two of us. [laughs]

C: He's not like, self-aware.

G: It doesn't matter. He still does!

C: Well, I don't think okay. Well, I don't think Dean's talking about the psychological component!

G: Well, you just said he was!

C: No, I argued very strongly that he was not at all talking about the psychological component, you were saying that he was because you think that part of the cultural definition of daddy issues includes the psych- or sorry. Sorry. Financial. I meant financial. [G laughing] Dean is not thinking about the financial component.

G: Yeah. So no, that's what I'm saying. You said that it's about the psychological.

C: Yes, it's only about the psychological component. That is what I've said and that is what I mean currently.

G: But the psychological component is based on everything. Psychology does not exist in a vacuum!

C: Okay, it's the psychological component, but specifically in the way that it forms insecure attachment styles.

G: Yeah, but this is not getting Cas as a sugar daddy.

C: And when people are talking about that, they are only feeling sad about your dad leaving because you don't think you're good enough. Like, that is what people think daddy issues is. They are not thinking about how the financial component affects other things, including the psychological component.

G: Well, obviously, it's multi-faceted! [laughs]

C: Obviously, it's multi-faceted, but people who talk about daddy issues are using a tweet term about it because they're not talking about it in a nuanced fashion. Like, if people were talking about like, the full multi-faceted extent of having like, an absentee parent, they would not use the term daddy issues. The term daddy issues is like, a simplified, twee look at it.

G: Well, nobody says the term "daddy issues" here!

C: The term that daddy issues is not in here, but it is a social idea that is not complex that people use to apply to sex workers, and that cultural idea is what I think Dean is applying right now.

G: But I don't think Dean is saying like, "This girl does sex work because she's insecure on whether she is a lovable person."

C: I think that is what Dean is saying.

G: Okay! [C laughs] Well, I think it's like, a "having her dad leave put their family in a precarious financial situation, [C, laughing: That is-] and that's why she's here."

C: I don't think that's what he's saying.

G: Okay, well. [C: Well.] [C laughs] Obviously, from this entire conversation about fathers and sex work, we should probably talk about Dean.

C: Wait, why?

G: This is like, something-

C: Oh, yeah, people use this, but I don't believe in that, so. [laughs] I mean, you can talk about it.

G: I don't- I don't want to. [laughs]

C: Okay, good. Then let's not, because I don't want to. [G: Okay. Well.] Okay, either way, it doesn't make sense to have a long argument about this, given that Dean's just spouting bullshit, [G: Yeah.] and, I mean, really, our only takeaway should be to roll our eyes and then move on.

G: Bunch of bouncers come in, and Chastity is like, pointing at Dean and Cas. So Dean is like, "Okay, well, let's go!" And then they run off. And in the alley, and it's like, I don't understand why they're just standing here. Like, these people can still catch you. It's not like there's an invisible wall.

C: Well, the bouncers are just to guard the brothel. So it's like, if you leave [G: Oh, it's just to keep them out.], they're not gonna bother you, yeah.

G: Okay, okay, got it, got it. Anyway, so they're outside, and Dean is like, laughing, and he puts his hand on his knees as he laughs. And Cas leans down a little bit, and goes, "What's so funny?" And Dean's like, "Oh, nothing, nothing." And then he puts his arm around Cas’s neck and goes, "Yeah, it's been a long time since I've laughed that hard," and as they're walking towards the Impala, Cas is looking at Dean, and he's smiling a little bit. And yeah. Eventually they, you know, separate because Cas is gonna go to the other side of the door. And Dean goes, "It's been more than a long time," and then he like, you know, does the "I'm thinking" face. And he goes, "Years."

C: We're back to Sam and Lindsey, and they're having dinner together. You know, Lindsey's pressing Sam about the people back at the bar. And he says that they used to be in the same business together. And, I mean, what happens now is just like, a mix of Dean's conversation with Jamie in "Monster Movie" and Sam's conversation with Sarah in "Provenance," I think. [G: Yeah.]. It's just like, a woman getting people to talk about their feelings and whatever whatever whatever.

G: And it's like, at least with "Provenance," it's something for Sarah to do that.

C: Yeah, it was something for Sarah. Like, she was processing things about her mom. Like, when she said that, it wasn't just to give Sam advice. Like, she was also going through it. [G: She was projecting, yeah.] Yeah, with Lindsey, it's just like, "Tada! I now have the credentials to tell you that you're gonna be okay, Sam, because, like, there. Look at my lived experience, except I am a fictional character, and I was just written to make you feel better." Lindsey asks, "What business?" and Sam tries to avoid. So she starts saying, like, "Oh, you're in witness protection, right? Like, you're mafia?" And Sam's like, "No." And Lindsey, for the first time, after so long, [both laugh] [G: Goes "I don't mean to pry"!] goes, "Oh, I get it. Don't mean to pry, my bad." Bro, you should have said that like, yesterday. [G: You literally meant to pry.] You did mean to pry. [G: She literally meant to pry, is the thing.] You're sitting here because you meant to pry. Sam says that he used to be in business with his brother, and he was good at the job, but he made some mistakes and did some stuff he's not proud of, and a lot of people got hurt.

G: This is- Who? Who got hurt?

C: I mean, I guess, like, all the people who died of the fire. [laughs] And all the other- the people who died of the swine flu, they got hurt.

G: I suppose. I suppose. Is the swine flu a people thing? Isn't that like, a swine thing?

C: No, people got swine flu. I think it originated with swine?

G: Oh, it's about pigs and humans. They need to rename that swine-ish flu. [both laugh] It's only swine-ish!

C: Yeah, I agree. Let's call it that. [G laughs] And at this, Lindsey asks, "What was your poison?" And Sam's confused, and Lindsey goes like, "Come on. You were hooked on something. I know the look." And like, she pulls a medallion out of her pocket, which is her three years chip. She's three years sober. And Sam says something that I was thinking about earlier, 'cause I was like, "You're doing your like, detox journey working in a bar?" Yeah, he goes, "You work in a bar." And Lindsey goes, "So do you!" You know, she dispels her her bit of advice, which is, like, "I don't know you, and I'm the last person to be giving advice, but I do know that no one has ever done anything so bad that they can't be forgiven, that they can't change." The idea of Sam like, connecting to an addict during this time is like, a good one, [G: Yeah.] like, it's a good concept, but I just feel like they did not execute it well. She doesn't get to talk about her experience at all. It's just like, "I went through this thing, and therefore I know, and what I know is that you need to get back into hunting, Sam!"

G: No, I mean, it's also specifically the fact that, you know, she works at a bar and, like, Sam points it out can be a line towards hunting, right? [C: Right, like she's still-] She's working with the things that she was addicted to, and Sam being like, you know, stopping hunting is him putting himself out. But here's Lindsey, and she's successfully three years sober! And it's like, "Well, that's food for thought for Sam." It's just they never acknowledge it, the way they get here is so arduous. [C: Yeah.] I don't even think they're aware of like, what they're saying here. [C laughs] Like, this "You work in a bar" is very interesting. [C: It is, you're right. Yeah.] And so it's frustrating in that way. And also again, like, Lindsey doesn't really get time to talk by herself.

C: Yeah, she has a personality, but it's one that's built around [G: For Sam, yeah. Around Sam.], yeah, Sam.

G: There is a way for Lindsey to be like, "Okay, I'm gonna try to connect with Sam because I know what that's like." If this conversation, specifically the three years sober thing happened, like, bit earlier, like, before this dinner, it could be like, a way for Sam to go from "I don't wanna talk to you" to "Okay, let's have dinner," you know? [C: Yeah.] And it won't be so jarring, and it won't feel like she's forcing him into this situation. [C: Mm-hm, yeah.] I don't know. It's like, again, this could be interesting. And you're right, that it's very- It could be very helpful for Sam to have this kind of connection with someone who is sober. And it's like-

C: Yeah, 'cause this whole time, Dean's been drawing these parallels, but they just haven't talked [G: Yeah.] to anybody who experienced, like, the real-life parallel of what Sam went through. And it's like, yeah, like, this is such a good opportunity, and they just waste it! I- okay, and this is- So this is supposed to be- Okay, 'cause what Jess says in the dream is, "You'll never change, Sam." And that means that you should go back to hunting and drinking demon blood?

G: I think it's just- it's reaffirming that like, "There's something inherently wrong with you, so what's saying yes to Lucifer going to change?" [C: Uh-huh.] Like, "Just embrace it, and just embrace your Lucifer's vessel status." You have to remember that she's not convincing him to go back to hunting to stop the Apocalypse. She's just convincing him to say yes. Very different things.

C: Yeah, okay, you're right. Okay. So that is her thing, which is unrelated to going back to hunting. And the forces pressuring him to go back to hunting are currently Bobby, Lindsey, and [overlapping] those three other hunters, but they have the added asterisks of "and you should drink demon blood while you do it," [G: Yeah.] whereas Lindsey is like, "I think you can go back to hunting without drinking demon blood."

G: Well, she doesn't say that, but that is the implication of this conversation, if it's well-done, yeah.

C: Yeah, Sam's supposed to hear that and think that. [G: Yeah.] And Bobby's thing is just [G: No idea.], "I love you like a coworker, Sam. So just be my coworker." [laughs] Alright. Yeah, all of these people provide slightly different perspectives.

G: I need you like I need a new employee. [laughing] [C: Yeah. Exactly.] Iconic. Go, Bobby!

C: So we're back to Cas and Dean at St. Peter's Hospital. and they're going to Donnie Finnemore's room. And they go in, and they shut the door. It's- ugh. Supernatural deciding when and when it doesn't care about vessels. Like, they light a fire in a hospital. Like, come on. [laughs] Whatever. [G: Yeah.] I guess if they kidnapped him, it'd be worse. I don't like how, because Donnie Finnemore , like- is like, now, like- I guess I don't know specifically what's up with him. Like, they just don't really think about Raphael's vessel in this episode. [G: Yeah.] And I'm just reminded of like, how big a deal it was that like, Sam did something to a vessel who was in a hospital like, in Season 4, [G: Yeah.] and like, yeah, this isn't the same situation, I would say-

G: Yeah, because the way they portray Donnie is like, "He's already out of it," so, I don't know.

C: Yeah. When Cas says, "Empty vessel," does that mean that like- I mean, Donnie's not dead, 'cause he's alive. [laughs] So like, what is Cas talking about? Just like, he's not conscious of his surroundings most of the time?

G: He's an empty vessel as in "there's no angel here," right?

C: Yeah, but does that also mean like, Donnie himself, like, his soul is gone, too? Like, what are they talking- [G: No, of course not.] Yeah, I didn't think so.

G: Yeah. It would be very interesting if this vessel- if Donnie was aware and able to talk to them. Because- but also, like, the point they're trying to make here is like, it's not just a Jimmy-Cas situation where Jimmy is okay after Cas leaves because they're trying to like, make it so that, "Oh, by the way, Dean-"

C: Hey, isn't Nick okay? Isn't Nick okay after Lucifer's in him for years?

G: Yeah, because Supernatural is a terrible show.

C: Because Supernatural is racist, yeah. [laughs] [G: Yeah.] Yeah, they're like, "Nick is okay so that we can bring Mark Pellegrino back and then have him play two different characters who both get like, storylines and shit. But Donnie's just gone."

G: Also, Dean was fine after Michael possesses him, which he does.

C: Yeah, Dean was fine. [G, laughing: No, he wasn't fine, but-] I love when Supernatural makes new rules so that characters of color can suffer. Like, in Season 2, John went to Heaven after Hell, but it's like, "Kevin is in Hell forever." [G: Yeah.] And it's like, all- every single white person who gets possessed by an archangel is fine, but, like, Donnie isn't, and he can never speak, so we can just use him as a prop. [G: Yeah.] Well. Well, anyway. Right, so they're there. They put the holy oil in a circle around him. They burn it, and Cas- He summons Raphael by saying Enochian into Donnie's ear because he says there's an open phone line between a vessel and his angel. Okay, but does that imply Donnie can hear everything going on? Or is it just like, Raphael can hear through Donnie's ears, but Donnie can't? [G: I don't know.] Yeah, I don't think they're thinking about it, but I am. [laughs] Okay, and then Cas does the chanting in Enochian. Enochian is like, [laughing] the ugliest thing to listen to. [G laughing] Like, it sounds dumb.

G: I mean, it could just be Misha Collins's mouth. [C laughs]

C: Yeah. I mean, do we hear other people speak Enochian? Does it feel like it has gravitas?

G: Of course, like, I think somebody- somebody summoned something someone once, whoever. I mean, Sam doesn't particularly have a good accent when doing other languages anyway, so.

C: Yeah, yeah. But like, this is Cas's native tongue.

G: I know, but I don't know. Perhaps it's not- It's not his native vessel. It's not his native corporation.

C: You mean 'cause like, Jimmy's bad at Enochian, Cas is bad at Enochian now.

G: Yeah, perhaps the tongue thing really stops you! [C laughs]

C: Cas is able to completely change Jimmy's voice because that's like, the way Cas talks. I think that he can make him good at Enochian.

G: No, he doesn't change Jimmy's voice. He changes the cadence. That's a different thing. [C: Okay.] [higher, floatier] Like, if I wanted to speak different, I would! I would put on this voice, and if I didn't, [deeper register] I wouldn't. [C: Yeah.] Like, I can just be stoic and everything. [C: I suppose.] Obviously. So that's more of a like, I don't know, the way you say it.

C: I think if Jimmy spoke seriously and stoically, it still wouldn't be as low and gravelly as Cas's voice.

G: You underestimate the power of voice training.

C: Well, I mean, but training implies that isn't part of Jimmy's regular repertoire.

G: No! No.

C: [laughs] Okay. No. After he chants in Enochian, sounding really silly, he goes, "I'm here, Raphael. Come and get me, you little bastard." I'm sure that Dean has said bastard to Cas before, but I choose to believe that it's at the top of Cas's mind because Chastity called him a bastard. Dean asks, "What's the average customer waittime to speak to an archangel?" And Cas says, "Be ready." And yeah, that's when he lights a fire in a hospital that definitely has a smoke detector.

G: I knew that Raphael was gonna be- was gonna show up this episode, of course, but I didn't connect the dots that it was not in the hospital. Like, I know the lighting is different when Raphael does eventually show up, but I thought that was just like, well, he abandons the Eastern- [C: I was also confused.] he turns off the power in all the Eastern seaboard or whatever. [C: Hell yeah, baby!] And so, of course it's gonna be dark, and also like, the windows smash open, so it could be that. So I was like, fully expecting that that thing was gonna happen in the hospital. So when they're driving back- [C, laughing: Yeah, I was like, "Why did they leave and then come back?"] Yeah, when they're driving back, and it's the Impala, I thought it was Sam. And I was like, "Why is the Impala with Sam all of a sudden?" [C: Yeah, it's weird to have a transition there, 'cause it's like, you expect it to be like, Sam's turn next.] Yeah, but it's not. It's Dean and Cas. And Dean is like, "Well, that's a whole day I'll never get back." So you're right. It was probably sunrise when they went there, and they did the thing, [C: Yeah, and they waited there.] and then they stayed there the entire day.

C: Like, a nurse didn't come in? [G laughs] Like, a smoke alarm didn't go off? Like, Donnie had to eat!

G: Well, maybe this is one thing that is within Cas's power. [C: Yeah.] Some things he can do, some things he can't, and this thing, he can, apparently. Keep the nurses out. [C: Yeah, I guess.] But yeah, they come in. And Dean is like, very just casually walking in and then Cas stops him like, with a hand over his chest and goes, "Dean, wait." And then there's a really bright light, and [C: Yeah, baby!] ah! Raphael's, like, I think crouching on the ground or something, but like, his shoulders are down. And as he stands up, he, like, you know, stands up straight, and you see these electric wings. Oh, it's wonderful! [C: Yes, it's so good.] It's truly wonderful. And like, I think it lends Raphael so much power. Like, for me, as a watcher, I'm going to be like, "This is a big deal. This angel is a big deal." [C: Yeah, he's like, ten times cooler than Lucifer.] Because, we quote-unquote "see" his wigs. Like, of course, it's not that, but like, with the other ones, with like, Cas, like, it's just a shadow, and there was lightning in that also, right? Because it thunders and it lightnings, and that's why we see the shadow, right? [C: Yeah.] But here it's like, that lightning is channeled into the wings, and that's why you see it. And it's just so, so, so much cooler. [C: He is slaying.] And you're suddenly aware that you're playing with a big player right now.

C: Yeah, you're like, this is an archangel. [G: Yeah!] Whereas with Lucifer, it's like, "Who the fuck is this guy?" [laughs]

G: Wait, when did Lucifer show wings?

C: No, I mean, I'm not talking about wings. I'm just talking about Lucifer in general [G: For instance.] was not impressive, like, we saw him in 5.01-

G: No, no, no, that's intentional. That's intentional. [C: Okay, yeah.] You're supposed to- He's supposed to be more closer to reel in Nick.

C: Yeah. Well, [laughs] Gabriel's also very nothing.

G: Yeah. But that's because Gabriel is nothing in general. [both laugh] Sorry! Sorry to everyone involved. I know Sastiel is a big thing.

C: Yeah, I'm just talking about all the other archangels. Like, Raphael's the coolest archangel. He wins prettiest archangel contests and all that.

G: [laughs] That's so funny. I was gonna say "Sabriel is a real thing," [C laughs] but I said, "Sastiel is a real thing." [C: And it is.] Well, maybe it is! Yeah. It's Say-briel because he's Gaybriel, or is it Sa-briel because it's Sa-m and Gabriel?

C: Yeah, I think it's Say-briel. It could be whatever. [G: Whatever your heart desires.] I mean, they literally say Dea-stiel. [G laughs] Like, clearly- I don't know. It could be anything. Like, they know how-

G: That was the only thing Sam was ever wrong about in his life.

C: Yeah. And it just shows Sam's Dean-centric reading of the Destiel relationship.

G: Exactly. You know, I still think constantly about that one post that's like, "If somebody calls it Deancas, that's how you know they're in it for real for real." [laughs] [C: Huh.] which I do find so funny. Because, like, if you're a casual viewer, you would say Destiel. But especially during that time, I feel like, between the confession and, I would say, 2022. [C: People said Deancas more, yeah.] And I said Deancas a lot more, because it's like, "No, but we're serious this time." I mean, Destiel, as a word, has been made fun of a lot. And so it's like, "Oh, let's say Deancas." [C: "This is the adult, professional version."] The adult's table [laughs] version of Destiel.

C: Yeah, exactly. Married with two kids, but with Sam and Dean Funko Pops.

G: Yeah. Nowadays, I feel like that thing has swayed back again to like, Destiel to be like, I don't know- [C: Like, "Cringe is free, I'm free of cringe."] [laughs] Yeah, yeah. I think, now, people are more aware of like, "Oh, we wouldn't have gotten there without all the cringe Destiel in the past" kind of deal. [C: Uh-huh, we're respecting our elders.] You have to pay your respects, yeah. Because I feel like, fundamentally, using Deancas is separating yourself from that kind of thinking and that kind of crowd and that kind of implication. [C: Yeah, uh-huh.] But now it's like, "No, let's imply, let's do it." [laughs] Whatever. [C: Whateber.] I could be a Supernatural historian. Or could I be? [C: Anthropologist.] Yeah, I could be a Supernatural, the TV show fandom anthropologist. [both laugh]

So yeah, Raphael, standing there, very, very cool. And he goes- he also has a deep voice. [C: It's a rich voice, yeah.] He also- I mean, we didn't hear what Donnie sounded like, but re they're doing a [laughs] bass-off, like, Cas and Raphael. So Raphael goes, "[deep] Castiel." [laughs] And Cas goes, "Raphael." They're so iconic! But yeah. I'm so frustrated. Because here, we paint Raphael as like, this big enemy of Cas in a way, and like, they're not particularly enemies, but they have such opposing views. And it's like- and we do do something with it, I think, in Season 6. It's just, I don't know. Like, Raphael is an interesting character, and I feel like even if, when he was more in the spotlight, we never really get much of him, especially, again, in comparison to his three other archangel siblings. But whateber. Supernatural's a terrible show. [C: Sure is!] And Dean, like, you know, sees all this and is trying to talk.

C: Yeah, I don't know why Dean is like, the primary interrogator in this scene. Like, this isn't his mission. Like, he's just there to be a bullet shield for Cas. But he's just talking and talking.

G: Yeah, but like, again, here, he's trying to stall because, I'm assuming, Raphael is still not in the circle, so he needs to get Raphael across the room, and so-

C: I don't think he moves. I wanna check this, but I don't think he moves.

G: Yeah, he goes to get beer, and Raphael walks towards him, and when Dean looks at Cas, Raphael is walking. And so when Cas drops that thing-

C: Huh. I didn't notice that. But this is probably true.

G: Of course it is. [both laugh] Unless it's not, in which case, sorry. [laughs] Dean is like, "Oh, I thought you would be more impressive. All you did was black out the room." And Raphael goes, "And the Eastern seaboard." [C: He's so cool.] Also, like, lightning and thunder and very heavy rain is happening right now. But don't worry, it'll get heavier later.

C: He literally does not- He's not walking. [G: He is!] He turns his head to look at Dean.

G: He is. Continue watching.

C: Okay. Okay, he's taking one step. Okay, okay, you're right. He does walk eventually.

G: Of course I'm right!

C: Okay. But Dean doesn't actually need to be doing any of this. The fucking beer stuff happens way later. Like, he doesn't need to be talking right now.

G: Well, of course he needs to be demure about it! I love that word.

C: No, he just gets Raphael to walk towards him by insulting God, right? He could do that right away. Like, he's like, an insolent enough person that he would.

G: He needs to walk to the beer, so he needs to have conversation before he gets there, and he can't be so aggressive.

C: No, you can literally do like a "Look who showed up for like, dinner. Like, want a beer?" And then he'll go over to the beer chest. [G: No.] [G laughs] Dean must say the least amount of lines possible, and then die immediately.

G: What he says was, "I thought you were supposed to be impressive. You just blacked out the room." Raphael says, "And the Eastern seaboard." Cool stuff! And then, Raphael says, "It's a testament to my unending mercy that I do not smite you right now." That's towards Cas, right? And yeah, Dean says, "Well."

C: I don't- I don't know. I need to go back to the fucking episode. [G: It is.] Okay. Do you have it pulled up?

G: No. But I have it pulled up in my head. [C: Okay.] And Dean says, "Well, maybe you're full of crap because you're afraid that God will bring Cas back to life again and smite you and your candyass skirt. [cutely] By the way, hi! I'm Dean!" Oh, he's cute! [laughs]

C: No, he's not. You just said that in a cute voice. He doesn't say it like that. He says it in an annoying voice, 'cause he's annoying.

G: [laughing] I- I'm imagining it in my head, and I think he's cute.

C: Well, but it's not cute, though. You just said it in a fun voice. [G laughs] But Dean didn't say it in a fun voice. He said it in an annoying voice because he's annoying.

G: [laughing] Am I tricking the audience by saying it in a fun voice?

C: Yeah, you're lying. You're lying to the world! [both laugh]

G: Yeah. And Raphael says, "I know who you are, and thanks to him, I know where you are." And Cas says, "You wouldn't kill him. You wouldn't dare." And Raphael is saying that, "Well, no, I can take him back to Michael." And this is when Dean starts walking, and he says, "Well, yeah, I'm not gonna go anywhere." And like, Dean turns around to drink beer, and Zachariah says, "Well, you remember Zachariah giving you stomach cancer, right?" And we see like, a close shot of Dean's face as he like, drinks beer, and he does look nervous, so like, you know you understand it like, "Oh, this is like, something that they're doing as a trick or whatever."

C: Oh, I just thought it was like, [laughs] "Well, he didn't enjoy getting stomach cancer," 'cause he did.

G: Well, obviously that, too. Obviously that too. But, you know, like, the intensity of the situation is catching up to him here. And yeah. Raphael says, "Well, he doesn't have anything close to my imagination." Agh, love that! [C: Yeah. So good.] What would Raphael do? I feel like we don't know Raphael yet well enough to figure out what he would do.

C: Yeah. And I don't think we learn about him enough to-

G: I don't remember. I don't recall to figure it out. But yeah. Perhaps one day, we'll know. We'll have a picnic with Raphael and dine in the Ritz with him. [C: Yeah!] Dean turns around and goes, "Well, I bet you didn't imagine one thing." And then, by the way, like, as I've said, Raphael is walking. [C: Yeah, he's walking.] Yeah. [laughs] And Dean goes, "We knew you were coming, you stupid son of a bitch." And then he turns to Cas, and Cas is holding a lighter. A Zippo, even. And he drops the lighter into the circle, and Raphael is trapped. And Dean walks towards Cas now as Raphael looks at them menacingly. And then [laughing] Dean goes, "Don't look at me. It was his idea!" [C laughs] And Cas turns to Dean like, "What?" [laughing] And Dean turns to Cas, and they just stare at each other. They're pretty funny. [C: Mm.] And yeah, Cas goes back to serious mode, and he turns to Raphael, and he says, "Where is he?" And Raphael goes, "God? Didn't you hear?"

C: Sorry, the old God can't come to the phone right now. [both] Why? 'Cause he's dead.

G: He literally is. Yeah, he says, "He's dead, Castiel. Dead." Ah! Lovely.

C: Yeah, and he takes pleasure in the saying it, too. [G: Yeah.] It's like, "I know you're gonna be emo about this. Well, guess what?"

G: Because when Uriel was talking about like, God being gone, he was angsty about it, right?

C: Yeah. And I mean, Raphael is also angsty about it later, but right now, he's just angry at Cas, mostly.

G: It's coming from a different place. Yeah. Like, with Uriel, him telling Cas like, "God is not in Heaven anymore, whatever, and then doesn't care," like, that is coming from a place of trying to get Cas to be mad with him, vs Raphael, who's just taunting Cas now. Like, "Oh, you think you're better because God raised you? Well, he didn't, 'cause he's dead." [C: Yeah. Slay.] Slay!

C: We're back to the bar, and Sam's wiping down a table. But then Tim, which was like, one of the hunter guys, he stumbles in. Like, there's blood on him and shit, and he's alone. And he goes, "Something you want to tell me, Sam?" And Sam's like, "What are you talking about?" And Tim insists- Sam asks where his friends Reggie and Steve are. And Tim says that Steve is dead, like, his guts are spilling out of him because of the demons. And Sam apologizes, but this, you know, Tim still insists that Sam tell him the truth. So the demons that attacked, one of them told Tim things about Sam, and Sam goes, "Demons lie." You know, it's just more of Tim being like, "Tell me the truth now, blah blah blah blah blah." And then, suddenly, the door opens, and Reggie, one of the other hunters, comes in, like, with his arm around Lindsey's neck. She's like, struggling, and Sam's like, "Holy shit. What's happening?" blah blah blah. So we're back to Raphael and Cas and Dean, and Raphael says, "There's no other explanation. He's gone for good." And Cas says, "You're lying." And Raphael says, like, "Am I? Do you remember the 20th century? Think the 21st is going any better? Do you think God would have let any of that happen if he were alive?" And this is so fascinating. 'Cause he's talking about how like, it sucks for humans 'cause of like, the world wars and shit, right?

G: Yeah. But what's that connection to angels?

C: Yeah, like, that's not related to angels. But like, I think, like, he just cares about humans. [G: Yeah, that's true.] It is hard for me to know, like, what the goals of the angels are. Like, their power runs Heaven, but they aren't directly involved in like, caretaking souls that go to Heaven or anything, right? Like, what do they do? [laughs] [G: No idea.] What are their jobs? [laughs]

G: Because, like, the last- you know, Cas was on Earth, right? [C: Yeah, like, what was he doing?] And the job then, was like, "This angel is having inappropriate relations with a human, so let's take him out back and shoot him." [C: Yeah. And that was only like, a day of work.] So that's an angel thing. That's an angel thing.

C: But yeah, like, no angels are like, going around Earth, healing humans. Like, nothing that they are shown to have done is directly related to helping or hindering people.

G: Yeah. In the thought process of like, that girl!Cas era, it wasn't about humans at all. It was about angels. And I feel like that is a reasonable thing to think of most angel presence on Earth as like, irrelevant to humans. Or like, humans, are not the center of the thinking of being here, you know? I don't know.

C: Yeah, well, okay. For demons, it's like, they think that killing people is fun, so they go to Earth to kill people. [laughs] [G: Yeah.] Angels- what do they do?

G: Angels don't even like- Angels don't even seem to be against demons, specifically. Like, they don't give a shit. [C: I mean, Uriel is.] Yeah, but like, not in a way where he's gonna go down on Earth and kill, combat demons.

C: Yeah, specifically kill demons. Yeah, like, [laughs] what do angels do with their time? Like, they've got- like, what are their tasks? Okay, so they were like, okay, they were doing the Apocalypse now. But like, before that, like, Cas was still on Earth.

G: I mean, Cas was told to not touch that fish. Big plans for that fish. [C laughs] So like, that's like, noninterference. Don't step on that fish. That's noninterference. So they're just not doing anything.

C: They're just up there in Heaven hanging out? [G: What battles are they fighting? Cas was a warrior!] Like, if like, it's like, your job to maintain the dreamscapes for Heaven, like- Yeah, he was. Yeah. Right. Who was he killing? [laughs] [G: I don't know.] Like, Hell people briefly so he could rescue Dean. But like, this is the first person they've raised from Hell, right? Like [G laughs], who else was he fighting?

G: Yeah. Maybe this is Cas's first job! [C laughs] Like, this is his first employer.

C: Yeah, no like, his resume just has "warrior" on it because the only thing he's done is like, fight demons to get Dean out of Hell.

G: Exactly. He should've been, "I'm a warrior of God. New title." [laughs] Like- [C laughs]

C: Sorry. Every time I start complaining about Supernatural world-building, I remember how they made an afterlife for monsters where they kill each other, and they never said where you go [both laughing] after you die as a monster in the monster afterlife. [G: You regenerate!] I'll never forgive it for that.

G: Supernatural is a fucked up show for many reasons, but also, when people are like, "Yeah, but the lore is good," and it's like, "You're completely lying to everyone and yourself."

C: Yeah, I know. I know! People are like, "Oh, the worldbuilding." The worldbuilding is terrible because none of the writers have ever spoken to each other. They probably don't even know each other's faces. Like, [both laugh] there's nothing. [G: Exactly.] There's nothing here. Oh my god! Yeah, okay. I don't know what the angels are doing, but Raphael seems to care about humans. Like, I don't know if he just cares about it as like, a numbers game [G: As a coworker.], like, sort of the way that Uriel does. [laughs] He only loves humans as his coworkers. Yeah, if he's just like- I don't know if this issue is like, humans did terrible things, and that shows like, the moral degradation of like, humans recently. I don't know if it's like, there was so much human suffering recently.

G: Or it's just the greatness of the suffering. [C: Yeah, I feel like it feels more like the suffering thing.] Because it's interesting that he starts with the 20th century, [C: Yes.] and like, I don't know. Like, I mean, obviously, bad things happened before that, but 20th century [C: Yeah, a lot of people died.], like, I don't know. Great War, so. [C: Yeah, the wars were worldwide.] Ugh. [C: So-] Can I say something? [C: What? Yeah.] Can I say something? The idea that the 20th century, specifically, was more violent because it encompasses the world, I think is a very European-centric mindset. But okay, fine. Supernatural has an American point of view. And yeah, ugh, but okay, let's go! [laughs]

C: Yeah, I agree. I was planning to look up stats for just like, number of deaths per war per world. [G: Oh, yeah, I'm sure. Yeah.] And do you think it would- I'd assume that the world wars would be at the top.

G: I mean, it's not just per war. I mean, people were enslaved. People were colonized. Like, those are things that happened before the 20th century, primarily! So like-

C: Yeah, I did have that reaction to Raphael's lines as well where he's like, "You think God would let that happen?" So it's like, [laughs] but God let like, slavery happen, though, is what you're saying. [G: Yeah.] Like, it is quite odd. So I just figured he must be talking about like, just number of people dead. So I just figured he must be talking about just number of people dead just given that Uriel's thing in like, 4.07 was being very precise about the number of deaths in the town.

G: So [laughs] when he's talking about the 20th century, he's talking about the two world wars, right? [laughs] [C: Yeah, I think so.] And like, the primary conception of that is incredibly European. So like, [C: Yes.] I don't know. [laughs] Like, whatever! [laughs]

C: No, I mean, I think it's a valid criticism. Like, it's a thought that I had, but then I was like, "Well, it's Supernatural," so I moved on in my mind, but I think it is good to say it out loud instead of moving on in your mind. [G: Yeah.] Okay, so he says that, and it's like, there were bad things that happened before then. Like, it's not like, things were honky dory before the 1900s. But like, yeah. I don't know. Supernatural- this is Supernatural.

G: There will always be this discussion of "Oh, Supernatural is a very American show and the Apocalypse is a very American thing." And it's like the rest of the world doesn't even exist. [C: Yeah.] I mean, we also had the same criticism with Good Omens, right? Like, outside of the UK is merely like, a fodder for your war or whatever, [C: Yeah.] but everything really is centralized in London or wherever it is centralized in the UK. [C: Yeah.] And it's like, there's always going to be this discussion in apocalyptic media. [C: Yeah.] It's just fundamental to it. [C: Yeah. It doesn't have to be, though.] So I mean, how do we navigate it? I don't know!

C: Yeah, also, I'm on the Wikipedia page for like, deaths by war? Okay, the deadliest was like, World War II with 80 million. [G: Yes.] But actually, the next deadliest one was like, the Chinese Three Kingdoms War [G: Hell yeah!] [both laugh], which was 36-40 million deaths. [G: Asia!] So literally- Yeah. [G, laughing: Like, maybe God did want the Chinese to suffer.] [both laughing] "Do you remember 220-280 AD? You think if God was there, he would have allowed that to happen?"

G: What's this one? The Taiping, what's that? It was high up on the list. [C: Was that the Boxer-] Taiping rebellion. It's Chinese, also. [C: Yeah.] Taiping Civil War. 1850-1864. More recent! [C: I guess, yeah.] Mongol conquests. Love that!

C: Yeah, no, Raphael should have been like, "God's been dead since the Mongols. [G laughing] Do you see the death toll on that?" [G: Exactly!] Exactly. Speaking of China, [G laughing] after Raphael- [G: I have no idea.] [laughing] I looked it up, and it's awful. [G laughing] So after Raphael says, "Do you think God would have let any of that happen if he were alive?" Dean goes, "Oh, yeah. Well, then, who invented the Chinese basket trick?" Do you know what the Chinese basket trick is, Grey?

G: I think I have known it before, but I have forgotten. Retell it to me.

C: Yeah, so I was like, "What is this? Is it like a Chinese finger trap? Like, is it just like, a cool, miraculous magic trick?" [G: It's a sex position, right?] No, it's a sex position. [G: Yeah.] It's a sex position where someone is in a sex swing or a basket suspended in the air, and then the penetrating party is lying down underneath, [G laughing] and then you spin around on their dick like, in circles instead of going up and down. [laughs] [G: Iconic.] Yeah. Yeah.

G: Speaking of the Chinese, yeah. #AsianRepresentation. [C laughs]

C: Yeah, like, I- I looked it up. It's not like, a very common- Maybe I just have to turn off- Did I turn off safe search? Maybe that's why I couldn't find it. [G: I'm not going to. Sorry to everyone.] Okay, I'm- no, I have safe search off.

G: You know when you're like, searching on Google, and then it asks you for your location all of a sudden? [laughing] And it's like, [C: Why do you wanna know this?] "Why for this one specifically?"

C: I really can't find much about this when I Google it, but like, one of the first results is about like, this like, happening between, like, Asian sex workers and marines. So I don't like that. But anyway.

G: Okay. "Anybody search a picture of a Chinese basket trick from 5.03? I don't find it in any from Google!" [both laughing] And then the only reply is, "Turn off the safety search feature on Google." So true.

C: Okay, anyway, that was- Okay, Dean talking earlier, I've reconciled myself to it because he was trying to trick Raphael in the circle. Now that he's in the circle, I don't see why he needs to talk. And this wasn't even funny. So I really don't see why he needs to talk.

G: Yeah, well. Raphael thought the same thing.

C: Yeah, he goes, "Careful. That's my father you're talking about, boy." Which means knows what the Chinese basket trick is. [both laughing] Like, girl? [G: Well, he has been on Earth for a long time.] Yeah. What was he doing at the devil's sacrament? [laughs]

G: Exactly. And also the fun here for me is that, you know, he just called God "dead," and then, like, you know, "God wouldn't allow that." And then Dean insults him, and he's like, "Well, don't say that. That's still my father." [C: Yeah, he still cares.] which is, you know, very Deancoded of him. [laughs] [C: Sure.] Which I know you hate. That's why I said it.

C: Okay. Well, you can say whatever you want, I suppose. [G: Forever, even.] You're the host of the podcast, and I'm just the cohost. [both laugh] But yeah. Yeah, I suppose it is Deancoded. But yeah, it is nice to have this moment.

G: Every single thing that is father-coded is Deancoded immediately. Like, "My dad was a good dad," and it's Dean being like, emoting. "My dad was a terrible dad," and it's Dean emoting. Everything's about Dean. [C: Yeah, I mean, it was about Sam in "Bugs."] This is true. And made true by the fact that Sam was like, "It's about meee! [C laughs] Come here, kid!}

C: Yeah, that was a fun time. Especially because he was like, taking pleasure in being like, "God's dead, bro." But like, he cares. He cares deeply, still. [G: He GAF, yeah.] Dean, who's still talking, goes, "Yeah, who would be so proud to know his son started the frigging apocalypse." He actually would be. Chuck was down for this. [G: Yeah.] And Raphael goes, "Who ran off and disappeared. Who left no instructions and a world to run." And that's, again, what do angels do? Raphael considers himself someone who runs Earth.

G: Well, maybe angels don't know what to do because God left.

C: So, okay, Raphael feels like he's responsible for taking up God's job [G: Yeah.], in some way, whatever that happens to be. That is an interesting concept. I wish that they developed it further or told me at all what the fuck angels do.

G: Also, when he was saying this, the camera was on Dean. So when I say that, like, "They're trying to do a Dean parallel," [C: Okay, yeah.] like, they are. Like, that's real. Yeah.

C: Dean goes- Well, Dean just makes a joke about the post office.

G: No, but I love it! Because that joke is just for Cas! Like, it's just a Cas joke. He's not trying to be funny for Raphael's behalf. He's making a joke for Cas. [C: I think he's just being funny for himself.] Yeah, but like, also for Cas. It's an inside joke with Cas, so I think matters, hashtag, to me. [C: He doesn't even look at Cas!] He does!

C: Okay, maybe I just misremembered every single thing about this episode.

G: Also, I do adore [laughs] every single time they look at each other in this specific scene. 'Cause the first one is the "Don't look at me! It was his idea!" [C laughs] and then Cas just looks at him like, "Come on." And then, later on, when Raphael goes, "He's dead. Like, God is dead," they also look at each other again. And it's supposed to be serious, but it's so funny to me, because it was like, the last time they did, it was the, "It was his idea!" which was comedic. And now it's here, and it's like, "Well, this is supposed to be a serious scene, but it is a bit funny." [C: Yeah.] And then also here, when Dean makes this joke.

C: Mm-hm. And Raphael goes, "This is funny to you? You're living in a godless universe." Ah, he has- yeah. He's so interesting! Ugh, whatever. And Dean goes, "What, you and the other kids just decided to throw an apocalypse while he was gone?" And, like, Jensen Ackles is is doing his "I'm angry" acting, but it just looks stupid. [laughs] Raphael says, "We're tired. We just want it to be over. We just want... Paradise." And okay, I am interested in this. "We're tired. We want it to be over." What is the "it"? Because, okay, the angels' plan is that they're gonna raze the earth to the ground [G: And then restart it?] during the fight between Michael and Lucifer and then start it over again. So it's like, "We're tired of cleaning up like, the mess of God being absent for two centuries. I think that we should just-" [G: What are they cleaning?] I don't know what they're cleaning.

G: I mean, "We're tired" suggests they're doing something, and they're tired of it. But it could be just "We're tired of waiting." [C: Tired of bearing witness to atrocities?] [singing] Tired of waiting, tired of- He should listen to Fazerdaze. [C laughs]

C: So it's- Okay. "We're tired of working to run the earth" is one interpretation. [G: But how? How are they doing that?] "Bearing witness to a godless universe" is another. [G: Yeah.] And then "We're tired of waiting for Paradise because we always knew the apocalypse was coming eventually, and it would involve us getting to rewrite everything." Okay, so those are like, three interpretations. And 2 and 3 both make more sense than number 1 because we don't know what the fuck they're doing 'cause they're doing nothing. [G: Yeah.] And I think for Raphael, I'm leaning more towards number 2 because of what he said about the 19th- or, sorry the 1900s being bad [G: Yeah.], but it could also be number 3. I think at this point, he is getting a little bit teary. Or is that just the light?

G: I'm actually not sure, although there are moments in this episode where I'm like, "He is more emotional than I thought he would be." And I think that is because of the teary-eyed nature, I think. [C: Yeah. Yeah. He is getting teary, then.] It also is like- I mean, later on, right, it's like, really pouring. It's really raining in this room because he busts- after this, he busts open the window. Even Cas was wet-drenched like a wet cat, he doesn't look as sad [laughs] as Raphael. [C: Yeah.] So like, you know, I do think he may or may not be teary-eyed, but it certainly is a choice to portray him as like, upset about this. And he really is.

C: Yeah. So Dean goes like, "God dies and makes you the boss, and you decide you can do whatever you want?" More Jensen Ackles angry-acting that doesn't land. And then Raphael goes, "Yes. [both] And whatever we want, we get!" [G: Ah!] And all the windows break and all the rain comes in. There's lightning and shit.

G: It is fascinating to me that, like, usually, right Cas is like- You know how like, when they enter the room and Cas is like, "Wait," and Dean turns as Raphael comes into power, but Cas like, just stands there, you know? Like, straight up. And that's because there are things that affect Dean, that like, doesn't faze Cas at all. But here, when the windows burst open, Cas crouches with Dean. [C: Hm.] And like, I do think that's- to me, obviously, the rain is not going to really hurt him. But like, this is still Raphael. and this is still like, you know. And like, this archangel killed him! And so there must be that fear. And like, the way Cas speaks, we don't see it, and we don't get the benevolence of the camera on him that it does to Dean where, whenever Dean turns around, the camera lingers on him so we see him like, try to collect himself out of the side of Raphael and Castiel. And Cas doesn't get that. So we are just to assume- like, you know, we don't really get immediately that like, "Oh, his confidence here can be just a front." To me, when he crouches down at that, it's like, "Oh, he is afraid." Like, there is fear here, and like, he genuinely thinks that Raphael can hurt him, which he probably can.

C: Yeah, probably can. And the rain's gonna put out the fire eventually, so he'll be able to leave.

G: Yeah. Agh, I love their dynamic so much. Because, like, even here, right? 'Cause they both do have power over each other. Like, Raphael is an archangel, obviously, so that's his power. [C: Yes.] And Cas is clinging on to the "And God raised me." And that's more than Raphael can say for himself, and that's his power. We can see Cas as the underdog in this situation, and in a way, he is. But he is- his confidence is like, probably more than he ought to have, [C laughs] and that also makes it much more fun. [C: Yeah.]

G: Okay, well, so yeah. Sam is the bar, and Lindsey held and knifed in the neck. Not knifed yet. The neck- against the neck. And yeah, Sam says, like, "Okay, well, let's put the knife down." Again, knife gets put down, Lindsey breathes a sigh of relief. And I'm like, "She's gonna turn into her true demon nature," [C laughs] except she doesn't. And yeah, Sam confesses. "What the demon said, it's all true." And yeah, the guy says, like, "Okay, well, keep going." And Sam says, "Why? Are you gonna hate me any less? Am I gonna hate myself any less? What do you want?" [C laughs]

C: Yeah. Sam and Tim are both so in their feelings right now. [G: Yeah.] Tim's just in the "my best friend died" sauce, and Sam is in the guilt sauce. [laughs] "Am I gonna hate myself any less?" is such a weird line to throw here, but like, that is what he's thinking about.

G: No, this is what I've been saying in 5.01, right? Like, why bother talking about it if it's not gonna fix anything? And it's the same argument Sam is making. Maybe Sam has been hearing me all along. [C laughs] Don't listen to me, Sam. I think we both need to go to therapy. [both laugh] But yeah. [C: Perhaps so.] Perhaps so. And yeah, Sam says, "I did it. [dramatically] I started the apocalypse!"

C: This man needs to provide fucking context! He needs to say, "I was tricked into starting the apocalypse." [laughs] God.

G: Yeah. And also, I mean, "I hurt so many people." It's like, well, pretty indirectly, I believe. And also, that's not you, I don't think. [C: Yeah.] I don't know.

C: Yeah, like, "I was tricked into doing something that like, caused someone to come out who then hurt people." Like, bro, I think it's fine. Whatever. It's like, "Oh, if I didn't do this, like, it wouldn't have happened." Yeah, that's true. But like, you were also under the impression that if you didn't do this, it would happen, so.

G: Yeah, many things are true always. [C: Yeah.] But yeah, Cas says- Oh, now we're back to Raphael. And it's Cas saying- and he's screaming now because rain is pouring into the room. It's very loud. He's very wet. He goes, "[shouting] If God is dead, why have I returned? Who brought me back?" Raphael goes, "Did it ever occur to you that maybe Lucifer raised you?" [C: So good.] And Cas goes- Cas disbelievingly goes, "No." Like, not "no" as in like, "No, I never thought of that." As in "no" as in like, "No, he didn't." [C: Like, "God, that makes sense, fuck!"] And Raphael says, "Think about it. He needs all the rebellious angels he can find. You know it adds up." Agh, iconic! [C: Soo good. Raphael's so good.] He is a rebellious angel! [C: Yeah.] Did Cas think this? I mean, it must have been part of his consideration on like, whether he's going to help Dean or not. Like, you know, Lucifer is an angel who fell because of rebellion. But, I mean, we have Anna who fell because of rebellion, in some way, and she's fine, except Cas doesn't think she's fine. [C: Cas didn't like her.] Yeah. Anyway, Cas decides this is it. "Let's go." And Raphael, while Cas is walking away, goes, "Castiel. I am warning you. Do not leave me here. I will find you." And Cas does a bitchy little turn around, and he goes, "Maybe one day. But today, you're my little bitch." And then he walks out. And Dean, like, stops turns around to Raphael, and says, "What he said." Which I assume you hate? 'Cause you hate Dean commenting? It's cue-

C: Yeah, I mean, when I was watching it, I did go, "Shut up, Dean. I hope you die forever." And Danica was like, "No, you do need a line to lighten the scene from a writing perspective because of like, blah blah blah blah blah tone." And I was like, "Fine."

G: No, I mean, yeah, you do need to lighten the mood. And also it's just, again, like, Dean, like, the last time he saw Cas- You know, like, the last- you know how like, in 4.22, I mentioned that Cas was like, suddenly very commanding and everything, and Dean was like, bit surprised by it? [C: Mm.] And like, this following this last two episodes, Cas was the same way, except it was towards Dean or whatever. Like, he was commanding to Zachariah, but that's a short period, and, you know. To Sam and Dean, but like, well, Dean, but that's towards Dean. And here is like a- You know, he just spent the entire day yesterday seeing Cas be goofy and silly, and, you know, etc, and awkward and don't know what to do. And now he's here being cool, and it must be like, "Oh, that's fun that my friend can do that."

C: Yeah. So back in the bar, Tim holds up like, a little tube of demon blood, and he calls it "go juice. And Sam says, "Get that away from me." And Tim goes like, "No, like, we're gonna force you to drink it. You're gonna Hulk out. And then you're gonna kill all the demons that killed my best friend." And like, at this, Reggie- the other hunter, Reggie, handcuffs Lindsey to the bar, and then Tim goes, "Or she dies." And Sam's like, "You wouldn't do that." And Tim says, "It's funny how watching your best friend die changes that." And like, my annoyance with this scene is just the way that Reggie literally doesn't have a single line. Like, it's just Tim the whole time. [G: Yeah.] Like, Tim is just saying stuff. And then Reggie's in the- Reggie is the only one who lays hands on Lindsey. And like, they've sort of relegated him to like, this kind of henchman kind of role. [G: Like attack dog, yeah.] Yeah, like, in this scene. And like, they're trying to make Tim like- he's a villain, but like, you are supposed to be slightly sympathetic because they let him say all his lines about his best friend dying and stuff. And like, what was Reggie's relationship to Steve? Why isn't he saying anything? What's going on there? And like, I guess, it's especially bad because Tim is white and Reggie is Black and Supernatural has a history of, as we've said many times, Black men enacting violence on white women in order to like, show how bad they are or whatever. So yeah, that is sort of happening in the background of this entire scene. So after Lindsey gets handcuffed, like, Tim and Reggie sort of charge at Sam, and they end up restraining him and pouring the blood into his mouth and forcing him to swallow it. [G: Horrible!] Yeah, it is bad to look at. And after this, like, they let go of Sam, but he spits it out into Tim's eye, and then he starts beating up both of them. And eventually, he has a knife to Tim's throat, and it seems like he's maybe on the verge of killing him. But then he notices that Lindsey is watching him, looking really scared. So he tosses Tim and then tells Tim and Reggie to go. And Tim says, "Don't think we won't be back." and Sam says [laughs] the worst comeback line, which is, "Don't think I won't be here!" Like, that's why they said they were gonna back, [laughs] it's 'cause they think you're gonna be here.

G: No, but what he's saying is, "I'm not afraid of you. Bring it on!"

C: Yeah, I know. It's just- I find it silly. [G: Well.] I hope Lindsey's okay.

G: I hope Lindsey's okay. And we don't ever see her again this episode. [C: Yeah, we don't.] Maybe next episode? I'm not sure, though. [C: I doubt it.] I don't even know if we see Sam next episode.

C: Yeah, I mean, I don't think he's welcome to stay at this bar anymore. Literally, "Don't think I won't be back." And then the bartender the next day is like, "Keith, [both] you're fired." And Sam's like, "I guess I won't be here."

G: Yeah. He hangs around anyway, just to keep his promise.

C: Yeah, exactly. He prommied. [G: He prommied!]

G: Okay, well, now, Dean and Cas are in the car. And I think despite knowing that Dean and Cas drove everywhere together, this is the first time we're actually seeing them, like, in the car. And, as I said, it is a bit reminiscent of the scene in 4.03. That's 4.03, right? "In the Beginning"? [C: Uh-huh.] And it's like, you know how in 4.03, the conversation- [C: Wait, are they in a car together in 4.03?] Yes, on the way to Mary. [C: Why would Cas- Wait, Cas-] Cas was just- [C: I thought he just disappeared.] No, he was in with Dean. [C: Oh, to drop some information?] Not particularly. To interview Dean. [C: I don't remember Supernatural.] Like, Dean, was on his way to like, Mary and everything, and Cas says like, "Hey, Dean. This is fine by you? Like, if you save Mary here and now- [C: Yeah, I remember now.] Yeah, if you change the course of history, every person you have saved [C: You'll never be born.]- you'll never be born. Every person you have saved is going to be unsaved." And he says, "But it's my family we're talking about." And I find that interesting in juxtaposition with this scene, where Dean is throwing that back to Cas a little bit. [C: Throwing what back to Cas? Oh, giving him advice.] The concept of like, "Well, it's your family. And if you believe it to be right, then go do it." So yeah. Cas is very silent, but he's always silent. But Dean asks, like, "Are you okay?" And he says, "Look, okay. I'll be the first to tell you that this crusade of yours is nuts." Why does he call it crusade? Do people- People just say that, right? [C: People just say that.] When you have like, a mission. "But I do know a little something about missing fathers." Dean says. “I mean, there were times when I was looking for my dad, and all logic told me that he was dead, [dramatically] but I knew in my heart he was still alive.”

C: [laughs] And then, as soon as I found him, he got hit by a car and died.

G: [laughs] Iconic. Like, maybe Dean should have never found him. [C: For real.] Yeah. And he says, “Who cares what some ninja turtle says, Cas? What do you believe?” Aww! And Cas says, “I believe he’s out there.” Dean goes, “Good. Then go find him.” I do think about- of course, Dean is projecting, he does say, “based on my experience.” [C: Yeah, he says, “I am projecting.”] Yeah, he says, “I’m projecting.” But also, we see Dean to be at least a little bit fond of Cas already at this point in the show, but I think this connection with them, is like, it does cement a deeper understanding of each other, I believe, especially later on in the season. Yeah, Cas turns to Dean, finally, because this entire time he's just looking ahead and he goes, “What about you?” [C: That’s nice of him to ask.] Yeah, you're right. Yeah. And Dean says, “Well, I don't know. I'm good. Honestly, I'm good. I can't believe I'm saying that, but I am. I'm really good.” [laughs] Words of a person who's really good. [C, laughing: My name is Dean Winchester.] Literally is. And Cas says, “Even without your brother?” And Dean goes, “Especially without my brother. I mean, I spent so much time worrying about the son of a bitch. I mean, I've had more fun with you in the past 24 hours that I've had with Sam in years, and you're not that much fun.” [C: Boo!] And then the camera now is just on Dean's face. [C: Yeah, cause Cas has fucking jetted.] [laughs] He goes. “It's funny, you know. I've been so chained to my family. But now I'm alone. Hell, I am happy.” And he looks over to not Cas [C laughs] because Cas has disappeared. [C: So good.] What Dean is trying to say here is like, “I’ve been so chained to my family. But now that I'm, quote, ‘alone,’ I'm happy,” except when he was alone, he was upset. [C: You were only happy when you weren’t alone!] Yeah! I feel like the idea Dean is peddling here is you're either- when you're with someone, it’s either family or you're alone. [C laughs] And there are layers to this, Dean! [C: There are other people in the world, Dean.] There are other people in the world and other relationships in the world. So like, I do wonder how Dean thinks- obviously, he wasn't alone, but he conceptualized himself as alone because he is not with family, and that is like- of course, there's a Dean mindset of it, of like-

C: Yeah, I think "alone" is like, “There’s no one I have to take responsibility for.” 'Cause Cas is like, “I'm gonna die.” And Dean's like, “Cool.” [laughs]

G: Yeah. And also like, even if Dean was instructing Cas on what to do and etc, I don't think, as you said, there is the feeling of like, “I have to take care of Cas.” And even if there was, we saw Cas earlier, and he was cool and shit, and so Dean right now must have a keen awareness that "Cas is not somebody I have to worry about in that way." [C: Sam is also capable, but-] No, no, here's the thing, Cas can hold himself, and Dean in a universe must know that Sam is also like this, except he has not internalized that. He still thinks, no matter where Sam is, or ends up becoming, or whatever how old he is, he will always think of Sam as somebody that is his responsibility and his to take care of, even when Sam can very well take care of himself. And yeah, that's the issue. Like, yeah, he's been so chained to his family because he has decided that this is a responsibility. [C: He made the chains and he tied them.] Yeah, you locked them, threw away the key, and it's like, okay, well. I don't know. [C laughs] First of all, his relationship with his family doesn't have to be this way. And number two, you can have other relationships with other people, but okay, Dean. And on [C: Cas's side?] the Cas perspective, I mean, he doesn't hear it. He doesn’t hear the last sentence that Dean says. But I do wonder what he would think if he realized, if he was able to connect the dots that Dean conceptualizes himself as alone with Cas. [C: I think it would hurt a little.] Yeah, to me, it reminds me of- completely different context, of course. But there's this wonderful book called The White Tiger, by Aravind Adiga, and the plot is about a man who worked as a driver for a very prominent family who owns the land in his area. When the wife of that man left him, he took care of the guy, he would prop him up when he's drinking, drive him places. And he became this guy's right hand man, basically. And he would take care of him, like family, basically. And he, in his head, conceptualized it as like, “We're having a bonding experience, I'm taking care of him, and we're closer now than we ever were.” And then, one day, he accompanied the guy- he drove the guy, 'cause he is a driver- to the train station, so that the guy could fetch his brother, and in the car, he tells his brother, “Oh, thank god you're here! I've been alone these past few weeks.” [C: Uh-huh.] And this is what this reminds me of. There are certain people in your life that- well, [laughs] this man specifically, because this driver was an employee, and he thought of him as lesser or below him in social standing, even in his presence, he conceptualized himself as alone because this person doesn't even count as a person. And as we’ve prior discussed, that's not what Dean is talking about. That's not what Dean is conceptualizing right here right now. But I do wonder if [C: Cas would view it that way?] Cas perhaps thinks that way? Yeah.

C: Yeah, I think he probably would view it that way. Dean's a person to him. Dean’s the only person to him in some ways, because his current- his narrative about his life [G: He’s the only person who can help him, he’s his only ally.], yeah, is like, “This is my only ally. This is the only person that I have.” I think Cas is like, “I'm okay alone, also, though, but I'm not alone when I'm with Dean, and I feel better when I'm not alone.”

G: And it's like, well, Dean. [C: Yeah.] Maybe- I mean, he left before he could hear this because Dean called him not much fun. [both laugh] [C: Yeah, he’s so good!] Incredibly funny.

C: If Cas just hit the bricks every single time Dean was slightly not nice to him, continuing on throughout the seasons, they would have a better relationship. [G: Yeah, maybe we would not have the "Your Dog" AMV.] Exactly. [laughs] I mean, I don’t think it was just 'cause he was hurt over the “you’re not that much fun.” [G: Of course not. Of course not.] I think it was mostly, “I came to Dean 'cause I needed him as an ally. We had some fun also. That's nice. The mission's over. I don't need him anymore." [G: And also, Dean just said he’s fine.] Yeah, “I'm gonna ask how he's doing to make sure I'm not needed. He just said he's good. Alright, peace.” [G: Yeah.] But I do think he was like, “Oh, but I'll hear out the end of Dean talking about his feelings.” And Dean’s like, “And you’re not that fun.” He's like, “Oh, no. Okay, bye!”

G: Bye! You’re not that fun either, Dean! [both laugh] [C: Yeah, look at how not- "You’re so not fun that I don't even wanna hang out with you anymore, bye!”] Towards the end of this conversation, you're saying the last sentence, and I’ve already left.

C: Yeah, yeah. [laughs] It was not nice of Dean to say “You're not that fun.” I mean, Dean was talking like Cas was his driver. You wouldn’t say that to a friend you were having a conversation with.

G: No no no, I think I could. I think this is an in jest thing where like, "Oh, you're KJ," yeah, you know that.

C: I didn’t view it as an in jest thing. I mean, Dean's not looking at Cas, he’s just looking forward. I think he's just monologing. I think he's sort of forgotten about everything.

G: Well, I think “You're not that fun” is not that offensive!

C: Yeah, it's not that offensive, I also wouldn't say it to a new friend. You know what I mean? I would only say it if I didn’t mean it and it was to someone I knew better.

G: [laughs] But you're not Dean, so. And Dean has always been a bit more glib with people. And Cas specifically.

C: We haven't really viewed a lot of his friendships, so it's hard to say where this falls on the- Well, okay, he means it, though, he does mean it. He thinks Cas is not that fun. [G: Well, he's- yeah. And?] So like- [G: It’s less mean if he doesn’t mean it?] Yeah! 'Cause when you make jokes that insult people-

G: It's lighthearted. Okay. It’s not an insult! “You're not that much fun” is not an insult! [C: I think it is!] [laughs] Well, I've insulted many people in my life, then. [both laugh]

C: [laughs] And you have! Yeah, I think it's an insult, and I think you only insult people jokingly if it’s something that both of you- It’s either something that you know that they also think about themselves [G: Noo.] and think of and laugh, or it's something that's abjectly not true. So the joke is like, "Well, obviously, what I'm saying is false."

G: Well, I mean, there's a difference between a joke and lighthearted ribbing, and I feel like this falls under the lighthearted ribbing more?

C: But he doesn't say it with a laugh with Cas. He's just laughing at himself, at his ability to have fun with some guy who’s boring.

G: Well, it is fun to have fun with a guy who's boring!

C: But Cas is not in on this. Dean’s just saying it out loud to the air.

G: I'm going to watch the scene. [C: I suppose I will also.] He looks at Cas, specifically! When he says “You’re not that much fun” he looks at Cas. Fully turns to look at Cas! [C: I will see how I feel about it.] [laughs] And then Cas just leaves! God, and he literally wasn't alone is the thing. He wasn't alone. That's why you were happy. He’s so sick in the head. Oh, “Now that I'm alone, I'm happy.” Well, you're not alone! So fix that about yourself.

C: Okay, okay, you're right that he looks at Cas, but he doesn't say it with enough of a smile that I would categorize it as ribbing. He just says it completely flatly, he just goes. “And you're not that much fun.” [G: Well, maybe Cas is not that much fun!] [G laughing] Yeah, I know he means it. It's fine that he means it. It could still be ribbing if you mean it. But you have to be laughing a little for it to be ribbing.

G: Yeah, I suppose. So you think here, Cas- okay, how did Cas perceive this?

C: I mean, [laughing] just that Dean thinks he’s not much fun? Like, isn't really thinking about his feelings right now. He's just monologing about his life without Sam.

G: Okay. Well, next episode, they're gonna be sweet on each other, whatever the fuck. So maybe Cas's mind would change on whether Dean likes him or not.

C: Yeah. And I guess we'll have like, "Cas, never change" with the hand on the shoulder. Oh. Oh, Cas.

G: He looks over at Cas. Cas is gone. His smile kind of fades a bit. [C: Ha.] This is your fault, Dean. You should have said- [C: You should have said, "You're the most fun person ever!"] You should have said, "You have never been a killjoy." [C laughs] [C: Yeah, exactly.]

C: We're back at Sam's motel room, and he is asleep again. And- I didn't keep track. Does he have a shirt on this one? [G: He has. He has, yeah.] So, okay, so it's about- it's expressing that he's feels less comfortable and safe now, yeah.

G: Yeah, I suppose so, because he just got attacked and everything. Also, when Lucifer transforms from Jess to Lucifer, [C: It's ugly.] the outfit also changes, right? [C: Oh, yeah, it does.] [C laughs] They should have put Lucifer in a fucking nightgown.

C: Fucking Doctor Who Thirteenth Doctor's death-ass transition. Jess is back, and he kisses her on the neck, and then, it's like, her back is to him. And then she rolls over and she asks him, "So this is your life, now? Think you can just live forever with your head buried in the sand?" Hey, what happened with those ten demons? Are they still like, running around? [laughs]

G: No idea. I'm supposing that the two other hunters still were not entrails on the sidewalk were able to kill them. But how?

C: Well, they just got beat up really badly, [laughs] and they weren't able to kill them earlier with three of them. So I don't know about that one. She like, touches his face, and he says, "I love you, Jess." And he sits up. And like, the way that they're positioned now is that you see Jess over Sam's shoulder. [G: Lovely.] Yeah, always love a angel/devil on your shoulder framing. And Sam goes, "God knows how much I miss you, too. But you're wrong. People can change. There is reason for hope." And Jess says, "No, Sam. There isn't." And then she puts a hand on his shoulder. and then she turns into Nick. And it's a bad special effect. It looks like shit. [G: Yeah. Well, it's fine. I think it was fine.] Yeah, I mean, it's hard to do a transition like that. I would rather they just do the thing with the angels where like, it's like, a shot away and there's a shot back. Like, there's a reason they've avoided fades for like, angel magic before. [G: Yeah.] Sam asks, "How can you be so sure?" And Lucifer says, "Because you freed me." Sam turns around, and he sees this, and he's like, "Holy fuck!" and he, like, gets out of bed, and he starts backing away. And Lucifer tells Sam that he's difficult to find, harder than most humans. "I don't suppose you'd tell me where you are?" And Sam asks what Lucifer wants with him. And Lucifer says, like, you know, "I'm out because of you, so I want to give you a gift. I want to give you everything."

G: Yeah. Also, this is a dream, right? And that's why Lucifer can't find him.

C: Yeah. So Lucifer doesn't actually know where he is. [G: That's fun.] He's just connecting to Sam's mind in his dreams. It is fun. I wonder how much-

G: I mean, he could ask as Jess, like, "Where are you, Sam?" And, like, Sam, would probably say, right? Or maybe not. [C: That's true, yeah. He is not a good strategist at all] You showed your hand too early, Lucifer. This is your fault.

C: I think, well, he just thinks that Sam inevitably will agree. So he's fine with playing the long game. Sam says, "I don't want anything from you." And Lucifer says, "I'm so sorry, Sam. I really am." And he says that "Nick just isn't a very good vessel. Sam, why do you think you were in that chapel? You're the one, Sam. You're my vessel, my true vessel." And Sam goes, "No. That'll never happen." And Lucifer says, "Again, I'm sorry. But it will." And I think that that's like, a callback to like- 'cause he says sorry twice, and in the episode, Sam says sorry twice, and like, the guy's like, "Saying it extra doesn't make it real." And he says, "I will find you, and when I do, you will let me in. I'm sure of it." And Sam goes, "You need my consent." And Lucifer says, "Of course. I'm an angel." Sam has a little sigh of relief during this section of the conversation. And he also goes, "I will kill myself before letting you in at least." And Lucifer just goes, "I'll just bring you back!" which, you know, is upsetting to Sam. [G: Which he does. Does do.] Yeah. And he does do that, right. He does it in Apocalypse World, right? [G: Season 13, yeah.] Yeah, he says, "Sam, my heart breaks for you. The weight on your shoulders. What you've done, what you still have to do," which is a callback to Cas telling Dean, "I don't envy the weight on your shoulders" in 4.07, I think? [G: You really think so?] I think it's meant to echo it a little bit.

G: I mean, I think it's more Chuck, right? Like, doesn't Chuck say this?

C: Yeah, I was thinking it was a combo of a callback to Cas and Chuck. Well, what Chuck- I think I was thinking of Cas more because of the phrase "weight on your shoulders." Does Chuck say that? [G: "The weight on your shoulders" is something Chuck says.] Okay, yeah, Chuck says, "So you gotta carry the weight" as well, so, both of them. [G: And then Sam at the end, goes, "And does it?"] Yeah, "Rest on my shoulders?" And Chuck goes, "That seems to be where the story's headed!" And Lucifer goes, "It is more than anyone could bear. If there was some other way-" I think that's why I was thinking about Cas, also. "If there was some other way" is sort of similar to like, the 4.16 shit. But anyway, "If there was some other way- But there isn't." He goes, "I will never lie to you. I will never trick you. But you will say yes to me." Bro, [laughs] you were tricking him, like, literally just then when you were being Jess. [G: Yeah.] Honestly, I feel like Supernatural does think that Lucifer never lies. [G: Yeah, I don't know.] That's what he said in 5.01 too. I think we're supposed to be like, "Oh my god, he doesn't ever lie!" But he does. [G: He doesn't say that he's Jess, technically.] Yeah, so like, it's like, "Oh, like, it's a lie of omission."

G: Yeah. Also, like, this entire conversation is interesting for what will come in Season 6 and 7, I believe.

C: Hm, yeah. I look forward to that. Sam says, "You're wrong," and Lucifer goes, "I'm not. I think I know you better than you know yourself." Is that something Dean said at any point, or am I making that up in my head?

G: That's something Dean says to Cas, I think. "I know you better. I've known you for years. You just met yourself." [C: What, "Lebanon"?] In Season 7. Emmanuel times, when Cas realizes that he's actually Castiel, and he's like, "I shouldn't be here. I should be dead." And Dean is like, "Well, you shouldn't be. And also, I know you better than you know yourself because you've just met yourself." "I've known you for years, and you've just met yourself" truly is an iconic line to me. I know it's not that famous of a Destiel line as the others. [C: Yeah, I don't know it.] But I think that is a crazy thing to say

C: The final lines are an exact echo of the conversation between Sam and Ruby in "Lucifer Rising," which is, Sam goes, "Why me?" And Lucifer goes, "Because it had to be you, Sam. It always had to be you." [G: Just like Frank Sinatra.] Yeah, [laughs] just like that. And then Lucifer disappears.

G: Well, episode. [laughs] I was gonna say "Good episode or bad episode?" but I couldn't figure out what to say, so I just said "episode." Well, it sure is an episode. What did we think about it?

C: I think I was frustrated with it more than I enjoyed it.

G: Mm. I enjoyed watching it. I think talking about it. Is interesting but for completely different reasons for why I enjoyed watching it.

C: Like, I enjoyed Cas in his moments. [G: Of course.] Like, "Demons. Demons." and all that stuff. But like, I think the rest of it was just not particularly anything that I wanted to see, [laughs] so. [G: Yeah.] Oh, wait, also, Raphael was cool. I don't wanna leave that out. Raphael was cool, also. There were two good things, and they were Cas and Raphael.

G: What's our Best Line/Worst Line? I think my best line ought to be when Raphael goes, "Careful, boy. That's still my father." I've talked about it, why I like it. But yeah, it is fun that there is a difference between thinking that your dad has abandoned you or or dead, like, you insulting your dad versus other people doing it.

C: Yeah. I like when he suggested to Cas that Lucifer brought him back [G: Ah, fun.] because I think it was such a neat thing to say. [G: "[dramatically] No. No!"] [laughs] Like, fuck him up, Raphy-boy! Like, let's go. [laughs]

G: Yeah. I don't know what my worst line is. I mean, I didn't like Lindsey very much, but when she goes, "Oh, very mysterioso," [C laughs] I was like, "Oh, this is the beginning of something I won't like." So there's that.

C: Yeah. Yeah. I didn't like when she said "There'll be bloodshed unless you agree to go to dinner with me" and we're supposed to think it's like, fun.

G: Oh, yeah, that was the one I was like, "She's a demon for sure." But she wasn't for sure.

C: Yeah. And I also didn't like basically anything Dean said inside of the brothel.

G: IMDb. No, we have to spread those sheets.

C: And there are points this episode.

G: We have misogyny, racism, homophobia. Definitely a misogyny here. I would say, 3. Is that okay?

C: Okay. So that's the Cas being anti-sex work, all the jokes about sex workers, and then Lindsey, fundamentally, as a person, [G: As a character.] and the way she is used as a damsel in distress and also just very flat to give Sam advice. Yeah, I think that's a 3. We can do that.

G: And racism. Should we do 1?

C: The way that they treat Reggie should count as something. Yeah, that's more like a 1?

G: I think that's a 1. Homophobia. [laughs]

C: "Bert and Ernie are gay."

G: I mean, I don't think that's homophobic. Like, Bert and Ernie are gay, so.

C: [laughs] Dean Winchester should be able to express his headcanons for Sesame Street, the fandom. [G: Yeah, yeah. His headcanon is valid to him.] It's supposed to be- [G: It's supposed to be funny.] It is a joke.

G: But it's not a homophobic joke.

C: It's a joke because it's a random thing to say, that is-

G: And Thelma and Louise is also not homophobic because it's just a reference that Cas doesn't get.

C: Yeah, yeah. I don't think that the fact that they're both women had anything to do with what Dean said.

G: I mean, there is also the discussion of the personal space being like, the show acknowledging Cas is being close in a "Haha! We know they look gay! Haha!" But I'm not- [C: Yeah.] Do we count that? This is the part where it's like, it becomes so messy, like, here on onwards, because they do so many homophobias to Cas specifically, and to Cas and Dean as a thing.

C: I just think that "Bert and Ernie are gay" is possibly because he thinks it's gay that Cas hasn't fucked a woman yet.

G: I don't think so! I think it's just like, "Haha."

C: But it's like, Jeremy Carver could have written literally anything there, right? Like, why that?

G: Yeah, but- Well, because Bert and Ernie are gay. The implication of that is like- [C: That had to be on his mind.] [laughs] Well, I think the implication with the Bert is Ernie is like-

C: "Bert and Ernie are gay but you're not"? Like, there's-

G: No no no. There's like, it's not a known fact. Or it's not like, a canon thing, right? It's generally known, but it's not like, confirmed in that way. [C: Uh-huh.] So it's like, you can't say a fact in that scene because it doesn't deliver the same implication of like, "I know two things for certain."

C: But there are many things that could be said, and like, [G: I know!] choosing that thing means something.

G: But I don't think literally any mention of gay people is homophobic!

C: I don't think it's homophobic in every situation. I do think in a situation where Dean has just gone, "It's so fucking weird that you haven't fucked a woman yet," and the second half of the sentence is "And I'm gonna make sure you fuck a woman today," I think that one can extrapolate homophobia from that.

G: I protest.

C: Well, now, what do we do with our points? [G laughs] 0.5? Like, average between the hosts? [both laugh]

G: But the thing is, if we do 0.5, I lose because I'm arguing for 0, and you're arguing for 1.

C: Yeah, and the average between 0 and 1 is 0.5. How does that make you lose?

G: But still! [laughs] Anything above 0 is a concession on my part. Do you understand?

C: Okay, I think anything that is 0 is a concession on my part. Either way, one of us- [G laughs] Okay, I think anything below 1 is a concession on my part [G: No, it's not!], so we are both conceding in the middle.

G: No, it's not. Because you're saying, "There's homophobia," and I'm saying, "There's no homophobia." And if we go 0.5, you're saying there's less homophobia, and I'm saying, "There's homophobia," and like, that's more against me than against you.

C: Well, we've only ever done full points before. Like, it does make it clear that it's a special case. [G laughs]

G: Who the fuck wrote this episode? Jeremy Carver, this is all your fault. [both laugh] What are we gonna do?

C: I mean, I've said what I want to put down, and you said what you want to put down. [both laughing] We can make two separate columns that are "homophobia (Crystal)" and "homophobia (Grey)" if you think that'll solve the issue.

G: Maybe Dean was just thinking about it! [C: Why was he thinking about it?] Like, not in correlation with Cas. Well, is there a need for a reason to think about Bert and Ernie being gay?

C: There's a need- there's a reason for thinking about it, writing it down, having an actor do it, and then airing it.

G: Maybe Jeremy Carver had a kid who was watching Sesame Street, and he was like, "Damn, those are pretty gay." And then he thought about it while writing. [laughs]

C: Okay, but once you're writing like, you do have to think about how things look when they go on screen. Like, it's not like, you're write the first thing that you think about-

G: You think Supernatural writers specifically are concerned with how things look on screen?

C: I think Supernatural writers do editing, at least. Like, every word is a conscious decision, and then watching it be filmed is another conscious decision.

G: This is like, so far away from our preconceived ideas of Supernatural's writers in the podcast, though. [C: I mean, I think that they are bad at writing.] We are always saying, "Do they even know the implications?" But now, suddenly, it's like, "And the implication if we do a turn to this thing, and then a left here and a right here is homophobic!"

C: Okay, fine. Even if they weren't thinking about the implications, I think that subconscious homophobia caused that line to be written. [G laughing]

G: Why don't we set this up for a vote? Let the audience decide.

C: Like a poll? Well, I'm gonna lost because people love that line!

G: I vehemently think that it's fine. Like, it's not homophobia. We need to define homophobia. What is homophobia? [C laughs]

C: Okay, yeah, we do need to define homophobia. Okay, a lot of it's built on the idea that queerness is unnatural, [G: Yeah.] which is, I'd say that Dean expressing shock that Cas has never fucked a woman before is verging on thinking that queerness is unnatural or that acting outside of-

G: Okay, we can put a point for that but not for the Bert and Ernie. [both laugh] [C: Okay, yeah.] You get your point, but it's vehemently- [laughing] Let's put in the notes- [laughing] [C: Okay. Okay.] I'm gonna insert a comment, [C: Add a Google Docs comment.] "NOTTTTTT ABOUT BERT AND ERNIEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" [both laugh] Okay, well. There we go. We're done. [C, laughing: Wow! That is all in caps, and you put a lot of extra letters there. Cool.] Well, it is nottttttt about Bert and Ernieeeeee! As I've said in the note. [laughs] [C: Well.] Well. IMDb.

C: IMDb! [laughs] God. We argued about the stupid- the two dumbest lies of the episode. [both laugh]

G: [laughing] Yeah, we sure did. Okay, my guess for this episode is an- Oh, you do first, right? You do first.

C: Um, 8.8.

G: Okay. I was gonna go an 8.9, even before you said. Well, here we go. Ah! It's an 8.5.

C: Huh. That is the lowest so far in Season 5.

G: Surprisingly low. I thought this was a beloved episode.

C: Okay, maybe people are like, "I don't see why we wasted all this time on Cas and Dean hanging out. I want more action." Or-

G: No, I mean, I'm not sure. This one is an 8 of 10. Well, they don't say anything negative, but- [C: Yeah, they just say it's good. This one's also positive.] This one says, [C: So true.] "I definitely like Dean more as a character but at some point i think the show becomes the Dean Winchester show and when Sam's story is so compelling [overlapping] its good to see it without Dean's reaction being the focus." [C: So fucking true. So true.] This person also writes "Cas" as C-A-S-S, but I forgive them [laughs] as of this moment. [C: Exactly.] Yeah. And this one is taking a guess of like, if Sam was in that chapel so that Lucifer can possess him, then it was definitely not Lucifer who put them in the plane, [C: Right.] and therefore put Cas back on Earth. [C: That's true, that's true. Lucifer would want Sam to stay there.] So it's not Lucifer! [C: Hell yeah.] It's probably God, and they will probably find God. Good guess, iceman-171, October 2, 2009. This person says it's a disappointing episode [C: Yeah.] with a great conclusion.

C: They say, "Dean's attitude toward Sam is weird and the plot goes nowhere." So they were like, "I don't understand why Dean said he's happy." Is that what they mean?

G: I don't know. I mean, they said that the conclusion is great, so they understand the conversation.

C: Yeah, and that- Well, the conclusion is the Sam and Lucifer conversation.

G: Maybe like, the beginning attitude or something. [C: But Dean doesn't say anything about Sam.] "The lines of Dean are very funny, but the idea of seeking God out is ridiculous." Okay.

C: Well, you already met him, and you don't know so. Yeah, this person is complimenting Demore Barnes-

G: [laughing] This one says, "Castiel is pretending to be Lindsey so he can keep an eye on Sam." [both laughing] [C: Oh my god, I love that! That's so good.] "Castiel is pretending to be Lindsay so he can keep an eye on Sam. I think this to be the most unlikely theory though because there has been no suggestion previously that angels can be in two places at once." The point they're making is "the necklace Lindsay is wearing throughout the episode is a lot like the medallion Cas took from Dean in the last episode."

C: Huh, they really- Their other theory is that Lindsey is God. [G: Iconic.] It's great. I would forgive Lindsey all of her everythingness if she was God. [G: Yeah.] This person just says, "Love this so much I wish it had more moments in the final but cant get what we want . love the Bert and Ernie reference." [G, laughing: Yeah, I love that.] Yeah. One of these people is complimenting Demore Barnes at his his portrayal of Raphael, which, I'm glad that someone isn't mentioning that 'cause he was real good.

G: Yeah. This one says "Dean and Cas sexy time adventures" are fun. [both laugh] What a way to put it! "But Dean feeling like weight have been lifted with Sam gone is a bone that the writers never fully chew. This episode-" And I agree. That is an interesting concept, but they DGAF, or they do, they just don't really GAF enough. Well, we've been here so long, so that’s it for this episode of Busty Asian Beauties. Next week, we will be discussing Season 5, Episode 4: "The End." Leave us a rating or a review wherever you get your podcasts.

C: Follow us on social media! We are on Tumblr at bustyasianbeautiespod.tumblr.com. Our official tag is #BABPod, B-A-B-POD. Thanks to everyone who's donated to our Ko-Fi at ko-fi.com/bustyasianbeautiespod, which is where our outtakes live, and check out our merch at babpod.redbubble.com.

G: You can email us any feedback, comments, or inquiries, whether you agree or disagree with our 1 point homophobia [both laugh] at our email, [email protected]. See you guys next time! [both] Bye!

[guitar music]

[beep]

G: Have I told you one time- [laughs] This is tangent. [C: What? Okay.] One time, Rese tells me that she's watched Chicago, like, the musical. [C: Yeah.] And I was like, "Oh my god, how is it? Did you love it? Crystal says that it's like, 'Oh, the songs are good, and like, the more modern editions could be acceptable, but there's so much inherent misogyny and racism in the show-" Well, [laughing] she was like, "What are you talking about?" [C: But I was not talking about Chicago.] She was like, "What are you talking about?" And I was like, yeah, you know, "People Will Say We're in Love," blah blah blah. [both laughing] And she was like, "I have no idea what any of the words you saying are supposed to mean and relate to this." And I was like, Chicago, right? Like, the musical? [C laughs] And then we figure it out, like, a solid, maybe five minutes later, so a very long time, [C: Yes.] we were just going back and forth, confused about everything, that I was talking about Oklahoma! so yeah. Fun stuff. [C: Slay!]

G: Sam would love connections.

C: Yeah. Would Sam love Letter Boxed, though? That's the important question.

G: I don't love it so maybe he won't either. [C: Well, I love it, so-] Because, as we know, I am the physical manifestation of Sam Winchester in real life.

C: Well, thanks for letting me know about that. [G laughing]

G: You know what? I think Sam would love Letter Boxed, and the person who would be really into Connections is Dean. [C: Yeah. Yeah, I think so.] 'Cause as we know, [laughing] I am the physical manifestation of Dean in real life! [C laughing]

C: What would Cas be into?

G: I think Cas wouldn't like- I think Cas would find Connections and Crossword pretty difficult. [C: Yeah, I think he'd like the Tiles ones.] Yeah. Perhaps Letter Boxed too, honestly. [C: That's true. He probably knows many words.] You know the Redstone crossword app, which is my favorite crossword app, they have like, specific sets that are 5x5, and it's for children. So you're supposed to play it with a kid. [C: Okay. And so when we're in the car and my sister's aboard, I play it with her. And I feel like Cas could do that. [laughs] Like, Cas could do the for kids 5x5 tiles in the fucking Redstone crossword, and he would have a fun time. Because the point of it is to introduce concepts to children [C: Hm.] and to like, allow them to like, ask questions or whatever. And I think it would be nice for him.

#transcript

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