#of míriel's line

[riding-with-the-wild-hunt]

i promise promise promise i'm not a freudian but the idea that fëanor hated fingolfin less for his character or even being indis's son and more as a conduit for his anger at finwë is so delicious to me uwugh...míriel cannot be reproached: her absence renders her perfect and inviolate, and given fëanor's intensity around protecting her memory, i think he would see it as a betrayal to be angry or resentful towards her. likewise, finwë also can't be blamed, because fëanor loves him so single-mindedly that it would seem a terrible disloyalty to consider that he could've done anything wrong. of course indis can be hated, but she's fulfilling a role both familially and societally different from finwë's, and freudian projection is neater when things line up. and fingolfin is right there! looking like finwë, acting like finwë, bearing finwë's name etc etc! and to make matters worse, he's also in fëanor's position, so we can stick some good good rival/usurper feelings in there too!

while we're told that fingolfin and fëanor are extremely dissimilar in personality, i think there's significant textual evidence, at least in some respects, to the contrary, (fingolfin's ride-or-die loyalty to fëanor, his willingness to brave an icy wasteland without any preparation, and his charge at morgoth are all actions that parallel what we know of fëanor's character--the attachment to family, the headlong impulsivity, the bitter hatred of melkor). there's very little about fingolfin to attract anger from fëanor, given that his parentage was hardly his fault. but fëanor is angry at finwë for abandoning míriel (who has the dubious honor of obliquely standing in for fëanor too in this instance), and angry at míriel for abandoning him, and fingolfin is right there!!!! and he can be blamed!!! and it's such a relief to finally blame someone that he never stops

[localmdderes]

Finwë and Míriel are watching a court jester juggling.

Finwë: (chuckles merrily) Haha.

Míriel: Sometimes I think, is this all there is? Is life just some kind of horrific joke without a punch line? That we're all just biding our time until the sweet, sweet release of Mandos?

Finwë: (shocked Pikachu face) Where did that come from —

[camille-lachenille]

Ok, there are tons of hcs about Elves and hair floating around but I think I never saw anything about hair jewellery. What about Noldor in particular specialising in incredibly intricate woven bracelets, earrings and necklaces made out of hair as token of love or memory/grief?

Fëanor wearing a bracelet of silver-white hair Míriel gave Finwë as a courting gift until his death.

Maedhros wears a bracelet of black hair woven with gold thread after the Nirnaeth, and Maglor has a clumsy braid of six different colours around his neck and he keeps it in his exile.

Elrond offers Celebrían a pair of delicate earrings shaped like vines and flowers he made himself with his hair, and she gives him in return a silver brooch with a lock of her own hair. After she sails both keep that jewel in a little box as a memory of the other, until the line between token of love and token of grief is blurred.

And we can push the concept further, why limit oneself to hair jewellery? Why not use hair to do embroidery? Míriel made a baby blanket for Fëanor with blessings embroidered around the edges with her and Finwë’s hair, so that her son would always be protected by his parent’s love. Fëanor uses that blanket for each of his sons, adding himself some ornaments and mendings done with his and Nerdanel’s hair as the blankets wears off.

Nerdanel keeps that blanket after the darkening as a sign of mourning for her family.

[misty-slays-blog]

Okay I'm going to give my quick, abridged thoughts on Haladriel/Saurondriel this finale (could be better, could also be worse), and some ramblings about the series going forward, before taking a couple of days to let it all sink in.

We have been fed. Was it a lavish six-course meal? No. But I hadn't expected it to be, and it wasn't crumbs either. We did get Sauron admitting he cares about Galadriel (his Queen of Light) and that he doesn't want to kill her. So what Charlotte Brandstrom said - Sauron loving Galadriel - yeah, I can see it. And that gives me hope going forward. Saurondriel isn't dead at all (despite what they may claim on reddit).

I dreamed of a Dark!Galadriel arc but never expected it outside the realm of fanfiction. In fact, what went down is pretty much what I envisioned they would do. I am okay with it. Also let's not forget that they had written S2 already before the release of S1 and before the huge fandom reaction to Saurondriel.

(And mark my words, I think the wound in Galadriel's shoulder will play a role going forward - side note, did anyone else love Gil-Galad's line when Galadriel woke up? He's so done with her antics, bless him, I love them both).

But my critique of the fight is the same critique I have had for the entire season: it's way too rushed. I can see what they were going for, I can stand behind what they wished to convey, but the execution was just way too hasty. It's like we got all the pieces ("his queen", him not wishing to harm her, Galadriel faltering when she saw Halbrand, also really loved how Galadriel actually put up a fight against a literal god and even had the upper hand at one point, etc.) but they just didn't dwell long enough on them to really mean something. This is the result of having too many storylines crammed into too little time. I would much rather have them spread their budget over 10 or even 12 episodes instead of 8 because now, so many characters sadly lost their place in the spotlight, and certain emotional scenes lacked impact.

Another critique that I have is that the women didn't shine this season. Galadriel was captured by a man for a huge chunk of the season and then rescued in the end by three other men. We lost Bronwyn, Estrid only existed as love interest, and Míriel, Nori & Poppy hardly had anything to do. The only female characters who weren't really reduced, were Disa and Eärien.

I didn't really keep track but did they even pass the Bechdel test this season?

Seriously, they would do well to hire more female writers and fix this.

They are rejoicing on reddit right now, that the finale seems to mark the beginning of a "wise" Galadriel who will forever steer clear from the battlefield. Honestly this misogynistic mumbo jumbo makes me sick and I hope, hope, hope that the writers don't think this would be a good idea. Yes to wise(r) Galadriel, character development and growth, no to domestic, perfect Galadriel staying at home while the men around her go to battle. Please let her be flawed, let her be tempted by the darkness, let her be a warrior. She is one of my favorite characters and I dread the idea that they might actually reduce her to a side character.

I know I might be in the minority, but I actually liked season 1 more for that reason than season 2. Yes, it had its flaws, mainly in pacing and editing, but the world just felt more alive and fleshed out.

Overall I'm rating this season not great, not terrible.

[elswing]

i'm super glad that they're finally establishing the king's men lusting for immortality as one of their main political principles. we got a little 🤏 hint of it last season even though the main civil strife seemed to be rooted in the mass "THE ELVES ARE TAKING OUR JOBS" hysteria, which was definitely questionable at the time, but in hindsight i think it was a reasonable place for the writers to start.

we were introduced to a lot of númenorians last season who will end up on different sides of the eventual civil war. i think it does make the most sense to let all these individual characters HAVE their individual motivations while the story is still developing, because while we know that eventually the conflict will bleed and blend into *two* distinct sides, that line hasn't been drawn yet. there needs to be more nuance before we reach that point of ultimate divide

and we can see that beginning to happen!

a lot of people are unhappy with míriel for "taking orders from an elf" which obviously comes from their dislike of galadriel, and then pharazôn nurturing those seeds into outright malice. that can very easily begin to weave into different reasons for them to resent the elves (jealousy over their immortality, then greed, then the eventual desire to take it for themselves).

that doesn't mean they can't also settle into that allegiance from a completely different angle. eärien, for example, hasn't yet shown any interest in the concept of immortality aside from a throwaway quip in S1E4 that could simply be read as narrative foreshadowing rather than a symptom of some current hidden obsession. she was introduced to it BY pharazôn when he was giving his little "we are only immortal in the statues carved for our tombs" speech over the dying king's body.

the only reason (confirmed this episode) that she's sided with the king's men is because of her grief for isildur's presumed death and her want for justice. in her eyes, pharazôn is the only person willing and capable of giving her that, which is why she was so easily susceptible to his manipulations. i don't think her throwing the palantir in míriel's face in the name of Elf Racism™ and causing the riot is a sign of inconsistent character motivations, but a way to really drive home just how skilled pharazôn is at preying on people's needs and steering them down *his* desired paths under the guise of achieving *their* goals.

it's actually not dissimilar to sauron's tactics. "find out what your opponent fears, and find a way of mastering it, so you can master them", so i'm VERY excited to see his next tar-mairon disguise. it's like dropping a barrel of gasoline smack in the middle of an active gunfight lol

[gi-nathlam-hi]

I’m excited for basically everything about S2 and I am sure that all the new elves are gonna be so cool, but…who did they consult on “Mirdania”? 😭

there IS a Mírdan in the Silm (Mîr = treasure, jewel, and tán = maker, smith) so I could see where they’re pulling from for a name but “ia” is not a Sindarin name ending. If they wanted a feminine version of Mírdan as a name, then they ought to have chosen something along the lines of Míril (which I can understand them worrying it’s too similar to Míriel), but they also could have chosen Mírdis, which would mean essentially the same thing and be correct in Sindarin 😭 Mirdania really is “can I copy your homework?” “Yeah but change it a little so it doesn’t look like it.” — but add on “we didn’t consult our language experts on this one”

Like oughhhh. Sorry this kind of thing drives me up a wall. It’s like how, while I love Theo, he has no business being named Theo. And don’t get me started on the use of Quenya over Sindarin.

[thelordofgifs]

Counting lines of dialogue in the Silmarillion

A while ago (before I even got on tumblr), for reasons best known to myself procrastinating writing cover letters, I went through the entire published silm and counted up the number of lines of dialogue assigned to each character. Here are the results!

Notes on methodology: Quenta Silmarillion only; characters listed in order of first line of dialogue; dialogue that can be attributed to multiple characters because a whole group was talking/the speaker wasn't identified is omitted; so is dialogue spoken by unnamed characters. Also I may have miscounted slightly because I'm not going back to check this.

Eru: 4 Aulë: 5 Yavanna: 10 Manwë: 9 Tulkas: 2 Mandos: 9 Míriel: 2 Finwë: 2 Melkor: 7 Fingolfin: 4 Fëanor: 13 Ungoliant: 3 Olwë: 1 Maedhros: 6 Fingon: 2 Thingol: 19 Caranthir: 2 Ulmo: 3 Melian: 13 Galadriel: 3 Finrod: 5 Angrod: 2 Turgon: 10 Aredhel: 4 Eöl: 7 Maeglin: 2 Curufin: 5 Bëor: 2 Bereg: 1 "Amlach" (actually someone pretending to be him): 1 Amlach: 1 Haleth: 2 Húrin: 12 Galdor: 1 Sauron: 3 Beren: 11 Lúthien: 4 Celegorm: 2 Edrahil: 1 Draugluin: 1 Huan: 1 Huor: 1 Saeros: 1 Beleg: 9 Túrin: 18 Mîm: 5 Gwindor: 8 Finduilas: 2 Glaurung: 6 Aerin: 1 Brandir: 3 Niënor: 3 Gurthang: 1 Mablung: 1 Thorondor: 1 Morwen: 3 Eärendil: 3 Elwing: 1 Eönwë: 1 Maglor: 4

Some thoughts on this:

Thingol has a solid claim by at least one metric to being the main character of the Silmarillion! No doubt this would annoy literally everyone, including Thingol ("What do you mean it's called the Silmarillion?").

Anyone who features in one of the Great Tales gets a slightly disproportionate amount of dialogue, as expected for the more novelistic style of those chapters.

Lots of divine beings chattering in the early chapters, but they're obviously much quieter once the action moves to Beleriand.

Huan, despite famously speaking three times, only has one line of actual attributed dialogue (the others are reported speech).

Maglor, one of the most popular characters in the silm, is the literal last one to be given a speaking role and he only has four lines of dialogue (all of which are very good lines though. do not come after my boy).

Characters who notably don't get anything to say: Orodreth, Círdan, Tuor, Idril.

[anghraine]

I've talked a lot about Númenórean aging throughout the Second and Third Ages having its own distinct process. But occasionally I have a fridge horror thought about it with regard to Pharazôn that I've talked about less.

First, the aging context (feel free to ignore if you already know!): according to LOTR, UT, and NOME, Númenórean aging is distinct from (but related to) both Elvish and normal human aging. Like other humans, Númenóreans physically age at a "standard" pace until reaching adulthood. After this, they age more like Elves—very slowly, only showing signs of old age/decay either at the very end of their lives or under enormous strain.

Denethor in LOTR is not an exception to this, but an example of what "something has gone wrong" looks like. Everyone in LOTR thinks it's weird that Denethor, who is clearly not dying (he can still wear armor 24/7 and wield a sword), looks like an old man at the spry age of 89 and started showing these signs in his 60s. It is broadly—and correctly—assumed in Minas Tirith that he's prematurely aged by mental combat with Sauron, although Sauron never does manage to dominate his mind.

Tangent: This is actually important because Tolkien explained (mainly in UT) Gandalf's urgency wrt Minas Tirith in direct relation to Númenórean aging and Denethor. By the time of LOTR, Gandalf knows 1) even contemporary Dúnedain do not ordinarily show signs of physical decay so early, 2) they especially don't in Denethor's family; Gandalf doesn't know the genealogical details but he can tell they're descendants of Elros, making this doubly weird, and 3) the Stewards very likely have the palantír of Minas Tirith in their possession. So Gandalf put the clues together and guessed that Denethor's premature decay was from using the Anor-stone and tangling with Sauron. Gandalf feared that Denethor had essentially pulled a Saruman and been dominated by Sauron, which is part of why he was so anxious on the ride to Minas Tirith. (Even more tangentially: Denethor read this fear in him and apparently found it both deeply offensive and very funny.)

ANYWAY, the point is that this extremely delayed aging process in which physical old age is a sign of impending death still characterizes Númenóreans that late, unless something very strange is going on. It would definitely be the normal process for Númenóreans throughout the entire Second Age, even given the contracting lifespans of the later years.

We also know that one of the factors that led to Pharazôn's disastrous assault on Aman was the onset of old age. This would not simply be a reminder of his mortality for a Númenórean, least of all one from the (honestly rather inbred) line of Elros. It meant he would soon die. If he'd followed the old royal custom of giving up his life when he felt death approach, he might well be dead already. Instead, he's in the "decay" stage and visibly aging.

The point is not that you should feel sorry for Pharazôn. It is very much not that.

No. The point is that Pharazôn was an old man by this time and likely would have looked it.

Meanwhile, here's the Akallabêth's final description of Tar-Míriel, the daughter of the last Faithful king of Númenor and Pharazôn's own first cousin, whom he stripped of hereditary power and forced into marriage:

And last of all the mounting wave, green and cold and plumed with foam, climbing over the land, took to its bosom Tar-Míriel the Queen, fairer than silver or ivory or pearls.

Of course, in Tolkien's treatment, age and beauty do not have to be mutually exclusive. But it really doesn't sound like Míriel was in the final state of decay (and lbr, she didn't have a lot of reason to cling to life beyond the natural end of her lifespan anyway).

Moreover, the shortening of Númenórean lifespans in the Second Age was directly linked to estrangement from Eru/the Valar/their friends among the Elves and hoarding resources and power while developing a paranoid obsession with death. Tolkien said this outright, but also the dates we do have for the Faithful Lords of Andúnië indicate significantly longer lifespans than the later kings of Númenor, their cousins. So if Míriel was privately Faithful, it would be entirely probable for her natural lifespan to far outstrip Pharazôn's.

I do know about the alternate draft Tolkien considered where Míriel was on Team Pharazôn and totally wanted to surrender her power and enter an illegal incestuous marriage, but I agree with Christopher Tolkien that this seems to have been discarded in favor of the purely tragic Míriel of the published Akallabêth. (I also think it's a terrible idea, honestly, that does not fit the overall narrative nearly as well as the Silm's Míriel, tragic as her story is.)

Sometimes I wonder about how the Pharazôn and Míriel of the Akallabêth perceived each other over the years, though. The entire marriage is a nightmare, but I've wondered if he saw her as initially a sort of prize, a possession of great value to adorn his reign—a jewel, even. I've wondered how much Míriel dared, how much she could dare, what the stakes for her really were. And I also wonder what the marriage looked like as Míriel remained delicate, beautiful, and apparently ageless while Pharazôn conspicuously decayed.

The disparity might not have seemed all that significant at first, since Númenórean women typically had longer lifespans than the men anyway (all else being equal). But as time went on and Pharazôn became an old man, obsessed with aging and death, while "fairer than silver" Tar-Míriel remained trapped at his side, I do wonder what the dynamics of that marriage really would have been.

And of course, there'd be Sauron at his other side, notoriously fair and even more truly ageless, willing to exploit any leverage available. I've never envisioned the situation as anything but dreadful, but now I'm like ... yikes.

That said, I'm still fond of the version of Míriel I wrote in 2013:

She firmly puts that and all else out of her mind when Sauron comes to speak with her, eyes frozen and piercing, words honeyed. But the sea is coming and she cannot see beyond it, and Pharazôn is gone with his armies, and that grants her a courage she had thought crushed out of her in all her years of suffering. "I am Tar-Míriel, Queen of Númenórë," she says defiantly, "and you are naught but master of lies and thralls. Step aside or the wrath of the Valar will fall on you once more, and they are in no mood to hear your pleas!" He’s so completely taken aback to be challenged by little Zimraphel that he does take a step back and she runs on ahead to the Meneltarma, laughing. "It shall fall on you still! May you enjoy the fruits of your labours, Tar-Gorthaur!"

[zealouswerewolfcollector]

Last Line/Six Sentence

Thanks for tagging me @melestasflight <3 Here are a few sentences from my TRSB fic:

Once again, Fingolfin was reminded of the paintings of Míriel resting in the Gardens. She had not looked like this ugly, mocking caricature of an Elda. She had looked peaceful as if she could rise and smile any minute. Fëanor had loathed those paintings with passion as was his way. But Fingolfin would stare at them for hours as a child, fascinated and terrified that this woman who haunted everyone he loved would awaken and take her rightful place beside his father.

And here's a Fingon POV thingy I've scribbled down recently (the actual last sentences I've written), which probably won't go anywhere:

I love him more than he loves me. I know that. I love him more, but he needs me more, depends on me more, so it's fine. It makes us equal.

Tagging @sallysavestheday, @amethysttribble, @welcomingdisaster, @polutrope, @cuarthol

[eloquentsisyphianturmoil]

In one Dagor Dagorath, they break the Silmarils. The world is remade; the oath has ended. In this Dagor Dagorath, it is judged a failure.

There is a reason Míriel died. There is a reason Finwë remarried, a reason Indis’ children inherited thrones, a reason Fëanáro’s seven children bore only one grandchild. The narrative was against them.

Fëanáro was sent, perhaps, by Eru. His line was doomed to work evil, but to prompt ultimate good. It was due to Fëanáro that any of pre-darkening Valinor could survive. That any of pre-darkening Valinor could revive.

In this Dagor Dagorath, the trees grow again and Fëanáro is no longer needed. In this Dagor Dagorath, the feanorians meet the Everlasting Darkness.

[swanmaids]

Following the tapestries of the Lady Ever-Weaving that line the Halls of Mandos, if one concentrates hard enough on what they are seeing, one could easily feel as though they are not simply viewing a great work, but truly travelling backwards and forwards through time. 

The weavers of the House of Vairë depict with their own hands every life that has ever lived – here a fat ptarmigan hides amid the grasses on the banks of the river Aros; there a patch of amethyst-coloured crocuses grows by the Withywindle. They tell the tale of everything that has ever happened. 

Here a great wave destroys all of Númenor; there a shoal of tiny fish swims through the sunken wreckage. 

Such work is far beyond the skill or even conception of most. All but one of Vairë’s weavers are servant-spirits made in the mind of Eru, to aid Lady Vairë in her storytelling and loom-work. Only one of the Eldar is permitted to dwell among them. 

Yet Míriel the Broideress is at peace within her Lady’s halls, in a way that she had never been in wider Aman. Here, she exists almost out of time, where her sorrows and those of her kin are but one weave in the ever-growing tapestry of Arda. 

Here Maedhros casts himself in the flames; there Eärendil stands aboard his ship and lights the whole world. 

To truly love a great work is in many ways to love its creator. That Míriel who lives and breathes the tapestries should come to love the Valië created for the preservation of Arda in thread is perhaps inevitable. Vairë is everywhere in her workshop: when Míriel strokes the shuttle she touches her, when she gazes into the threads of her work, she gazes into Vairë’s thoughts. There is a certain depth of knowing another, that once reached, is indistinguishable from love. 

That Vairë could come to return her handmaiden’s love is perhaps more surprising. Or perhaps not. Vairë was made to weave, and Míriel is the greatest among all weavers. 

Here and there: two women travel through time.

[silmarillion-stats-polls]

The height order of Finwë’s house

listed below. There is unfortunately no visual representation (you draw thirty distinct people all in a line).

Argon

Turgon

Maedhros

Celegorm

Fingolfin

Caranthir

Finwë and Finarfin 

Angrod

Celebrimbor

Aegnor

Indis and Galadriel

Findis

Orodreth

Finrod

Anaire

Amrod

Idril

Feanor

Amras

Curufin

Aredhel

Celeborn

Maeglin

Eärwen

Fingon

Maglor

Edhellos

Elenwë

Lalwen

Eöl

Nerdanel

Celebrían

Míriel

[welcomingdisaster]

Ok so I’m rotating ideas about elves and mythology and decided to drop some ramblings in your ask box because of all the wonderful theatre-related thoughts you’ve been sharing!! The thing is that the silm is a mythology right. Like it’s written in that style, and the heroes of LoTR and the later Ages in general are always explicitly looking back to the stories of the First Age (see: Aragorn wanting to cosplay Beren and Lúthien with Arwen). But what were the myths, the cultural stories, of the Elves of the First Age? In Tirion what were the stories that Maglor might write a play retelling or subverting, that Elemmírë might make a new song about, that Míriel might have woven into a tapestry? All cultures have ancient myths – but these characters are a) living at the very dawn of the world, and b) are all going to become mythological figures themselves! It makes me a bit insane. My thoughts are that they told a lot of stories about the war the Valar made on Melkor, and also about Cuivienen and the awakening of the elves, but honestly I don’t KNOW. What do you think? (No pressure to answer this is very random I realise) ❤️❤️

NO I love these thoughts!!! My thoughts generally go along the same vein as yours in terms of the general themes of elven myths. Here are some possibilities I imagine:

Whichever continent the elves in question are not seeing is often the center of the stories. The Sindar and Avari in middle-earth myth-make a lot about the lands in the west; the Eldar in Valinor myth-make about middle-earth. Since we're talking about Elemmírë, Míriel, and Maglor I'll stick to the latter.

I imagine there's aways the pervasive idea of secret Ainur no one has discovered yet. No matter how many times the Valar go "no we promise we're all here in Valinor, there's no other Valar left" there's 100% an elf somewhere going "have you heard about the Vala of bogs? yeah they live in middle earth and they're in charge of all the bogs there and if you aren't careful you'll be stuck serving in their bog court"

Not to mention elves who know Aulë and have heard that his people sleep under the earth, waiting for their time to awake. I'm sure for some elves tell it as simply that, but over time another pervasive myth develops -- stories of great dwarven kingdoms under the earth, kingdoms they're barred from seeing, stories of seven great dwarven kings, each much like Aule in face, each possessing a specific sort of magic.

Imin, Tata, Enel, etc! Not only do we canonically get them as a counting story, I imagine their fates are also something that ends up being talked about? They do not seem like they ever ended up in Valinor -- what happened to them? I feel like elven stories can tend to go along the lines of "and then he turned into a tree" or "he still dwells by the sea where he was born" or "he fell into the cracks of the mountains during the war and became one with the earth."

Myth as a way to explore cultural taboos! Elves coming to Valinor, a land with no pain or crime, with the shadows of war and suffering behind them -- I imagine they must explore taboo and pain through storytelling. What happens to an elf that leaves his wife for another? What happens to an elf who poisons her sister? I imagine there's some gruesome/creepy stories that come out there, but are told with a naïveté to the actual truth of what violence looks like. Something along the lines of "and then the servants of Melkor hacked the elven king into bits, so his wife had to go looking for each piece of him in every corner of the world and sew them back together"

The sea!! Must I say more. The elves emerged from the sea, and they long for it -- yet they cannot go too far into the waves without drowning, and they do not know what lurks under the waves. I imagine myths centering around sea-creatures, around the souls of the drowned, around elves (mer-elves?) who never left the sea and make their kingdoms underneath the waters, etc.

Just some ideas!! If anyone else wants to contribute headcanons for early elf myths to his post, please do!

[velvet4510]

The whole story thread where Fëanor believes Melkor’s lie that Fingolfin is plotting to surpass him as next in line to the throne of the Noldor is confusing to me.

Elves don’t die. Míriel has been the one and only exception at this point. There has never been any war or slaying in Valinor yet. So for all the Noldor know, Finwë will be their king forever. In their minds, there is no need for them to worry about the line of succession because Finwë will always be around.

So the fact that Fëanor finds it plausible that Fingolfin intends to surpass them can only mean he’s gotten it into his head that Fingolfin plots to kill them. But, no Elf has ever been killed before. Fëanor has no way of knowing if an Elf can even be killed.

This doesn’t really make any sense to me.

[celebrimborium]

some musings about character dynamics going forward (and s2 introspective)

This is a long post because I have a lot of thoughts about this.

For the record: I did like S2 a lot. But I want to specifically talk about character relationships and dynamics which is one department where it was lacking in comparison to S1 imo (with the notable exception of Sauron/Celebrimbor). I find it interesting that S2 has been praised by some demographics and corners of the internet that hated on S1 and I do worry about what that might mean for the direction of the show but I'd rather focus on the storytelling. So let's go into that a little bit.

Season 1 vs. Season 2

The writers were clearly cooking something in S1 with all the different interactions: Elrond/Durin, Elrond/Galadriel, Galadriel/Sauron, Nori/Gandalf, Nori/Poppy, Míriel/Galadriel, Arondir/Bronwyn (RIP), Elendil/Isildur etc. It's what I loved most about the show. So many colours of friendship, mentorship, adversity, bonding. S2 gave us that with Sauron/Celebrimbor in a very twisted version and, to a lesser extent, Míriel/Elendil with chaste romantic implications. The rest was more surface level or under-written (including Valandil's exit and his quasi-parental relationship with Elendil or Kemen and his relationship with Pharazôn and so many other dynamics that needed time to breathe, although what we got there was good, don't get me wrong; and Durin III/Durin IV were the parental exception here, continuing their strong fraught father-son dynamic, the best scene of which is still the one in S1 where he strips him off his rank imo but the S2 finale coming in a close second). But back to the main point, I found this most egregious with Elrond and Galadriel where I liked the resolution and the basic tenets of the conflict but don't think they nailed the tone of their exchanges except perhaps in the boat workshop and then in Robert's brilliant silent acting in the finale.

Elrond and Durin? Leaned heavily on the groundwork from S1 because they got one measly little scene and that despite canon (= the totality of Tolkien's written works) actually providing the writers with a very clear narrative template in this case, with the Dwarves securing Elrond's retreat from battle, something that I expected to be one of the defining emotional and epic moments of the show after S1. Instead it barely received any attention. I don't mind the twist of not arriving in time but having Durin not come at all very much felt like sacrificing character for the sake of subverting expectations.

Sometimes you do have to cash in on the groundwork you have laid and they did the opposite with essentially all of the non-familial relationships that had a lot of strong foundation-building in S1, only to find them borderline abandoned in S2. Payne & McKay had a line in their House of R podcast interview which gives me pause, where they said that they prefer switching up character pairings and it sounded more like a creative writing exercise than something strictly speaking dictated by the organic flow of things, although I like them so I will assume they meant the latter. By all means, do switch up character pairings – I for one can't wait for Galadriel and Gandalf to meet up! – but don't do it just for the sake of it. Don't fix what ain't broken and in the process, break the things that do work.

The Sauron/Celebrimbor scenes were excellently written and acted and even they felt truncated and in fact would surely have been even more impactful if we had seen more of Halbrand/Celebrimbor becoming buddies in S1. As it was, it felt more like an office romance with a psycho co-worker gone wrong than a betrayal of a genuine friend and it speaks to the strength of the actors that it still worked; but due to the distribution of storylines and narrative attention, it did feel (in this case and in other cases) like the writers did not tap into some of the deeper wells that they easily could have (if just given slightly more time or making different choices about the breadth of the storytelling). There are no shortcuts with character interactions, you have to keep building them and you have to focus on these connections and how they shape the actions of the characters.

Characters like Gil-galad who's been very much on the backburner for two (!) seasons now can't just be elevated to protagonist status out of nowhere in S3. I mean, I very much hope it happens, and different characters should get the spotlight at different times, but S1 managed its ensemble well and you had multiple meaningful, deep relationships (from scratch) and I don't understand how S2 failed to capitalize on that. It were mainly the new connections that popped. Sauron/Celebrimbor, Elrond/Círdan... but why not tap into the S1 relationships? We got good continuation with Durin/Durin, Durin/Disa and Míriel/Elendil, so close (quasi-)familial relationships basically where characters stayed close together geographically. That obviously makes sense. But travel isn't a real impediment on the show, to the point where some people complain about the logistics of it (which I personally don't care much about but distances shouldn't be arbitrary, of course, and ideally inform character interactions; so I enjoyed the Dwarves figuring into the Eregion storyline more strongly due to the proximity). And in any case, Elrond and Durin IV did meet, albeit just once, briefly.

If Elrond and Durin had gotten an actual heart-to-heart, like an actual conversation, perhaps even with a cameo from his children or Disa, instead of just a quick "hi and bye", that would have gone such a long way to reframing their experiences during S2 and would have worked as a mirror of their initial S1 setup – meeting again after having missed important events in each others' lives, bringing each other other up to speed, leaning on a friend to gather strength. (I would like to imagine they had that conversation and that it did play a role in Elrond accepting having to use Nenya in the finale – the moment felt earned but I have seen people question Elrond's trajectory and I can't blame them, when so much of it was only explicit at the start of the season. I understand that there was a certain urgency to the situation but you can also have an urgent conversation between them, e.g. as Elrond is already preparing to leave again, having made his request. So many things you could do. Although, to be fair, I don't want to overemphasize this point as it is fairly negligible in the grand scheme of how these arcs were set up for these characters this season.)

Galadriel and Adar meeting again was... okay but somehow also failed to capture what it would actually mean for them to go from animosity to reluctant allies. Galadriel had such a strong aversion to him in their barn scene but then when they meet again, all the tension... is muted? (I did like the very brief kinship over their experiences with Sauron, as well as the scene she had with Celebrimbor where they were allowed to feel a kinship over being victims of his manipulations – excellent scene, but just one scene and with not much to build on in terms of an established Celebrimbor/Galadriel friendship.)

Sauron and Adar not even having a single personal conversation/confrontation before Adar's demise was such a waste as well...? It's all perfectly set up but then... they go for the mirror image instead of an actual confrontation like the one that was teased/promised in episode 6 of S1? (And the promise renewed with the flashback at the start of S2.) The irony of Adar being killed by his own 'children' is not lost on me but surely there was more to it than that. The dynamic between Adar and Sauron, so brilliantly explored in the S2 premiere in the scene where Halbrand is held captive, deserved more realization on the part of Adar (in the moment of his death). This also, in fact, applies to Adar's realization that Halbrand is Sauron. Surely should have been an actual thing on-screen and not off-screen? How do you not seize on such a moment? Even if he suspected earlier, he must have had some moment of final realization and confirmation? If it really was only during his conversation with Galadriel, then what was it that tipped him off? It rather seemed like he already knew. Maybe he knew since ep 6 of S1. But it was crazy that they left his perspective on that unexplored.

The same goes for Mirdania being killed unceremoniously which served its narrative purpose but again prioritized a shock or twist moment (literally, twist of the hand) over centering the perspectives of the characters. It was all set up perfectly for a reveal, horror dawning on her as she realizes what she has done and whom she has served and... we just never got it. Not even from the guards who switch their allegiance back to Celebrimbor without us even getting so much as a reaction shot as they witness the scene between him and Galadriel that may have been enough to sway them. The issue isn't that this happens – the question is whether the show wants us to live with these characters in those moments and inhabit their mental landscapes or not; the more the show allows this, the more immersive it becomes, which, for a fantasy show, is the primary objective (think of the S1 scene where Galadriel enters the ship in Númenor and Isildur and the others stand in awe – there are ways to sketch these surrounding characters of a central interaction without taking too much time... and seeing more of a close-up look at the realization of these guards and their renewed loyalty would surely have heightened the impact of their subsequent murder, as well as, perhaps, clarified the spell they are under and why it allows Sauron to manipulate them more so than those who have not (yet) given themselves to his power.)

Gandalf and Tom Bombadil could have been the beginning of a beautiful friendship but instead the writers very much got it in their head that this had to be Luke on Dagobar training with Yoda (Payne & McKay explicitly state this in several interviews) and then when they realized in the edit that that wasn't working, they cut back on it. Which is fine, but it makes me question where they start developing these dynamics from, having certain situations or moments in their head and wanting to get to those instead of letting the characters themselves drive the story.

S1 was more of a slow burn but they did such a good job setting all these character dynamics up and right when it feels like things should start coalescing in S2, I felt like they were chipping away at their own building blocks instead.

Having said all of that (and I'm sure there's more to say but I'm not one to typically write meta), here's my thoughts on some dynamics that I would like to see explored or established further or that I just have thoughts on in any case:

Galadriel/Sauron

Let's start with the obvious one. I know some people are sick of it, while for others Haladriel is essentially the whole appeal of the show. For me it's neither – I mostly like how it's handled in the show and mostly dislike the discourse surrounding it (especially from the haters but also from the AI-crazed shippers; I know there are sane people on either side of the fence). Their fans got crumbs in S2 to the point that it felt cruel so I have no idea who the show wants to cater to post-S1 (marketing being its own, often misleading thing). It'd be crazy to me if they drop this dynamic altogether though.

Their conflict was personal from the start with the way it was tied to Finrod's death and Galadriel's quest to avenge her brother, but it's now personal for entirely different reasons. Namely her shame and his obsession, the flipside to her initial pride and his indifference (to the fate of any particular person, illustrated by letting the nice old man drown).

Both are rooted in the strange companionship they experienced: He was in her heart and she is on his mind. She would like to forget (how close he got) and he cannot (forget how close he got to a power heightened in the presence of her).

Surely there's still something there to mine. Whether it's them crossing paths as she goes further East to recuperate in what will become Lothlórien and him going on a roadshow to recruit Men for his Nine rings or whatever. Frankly, I want her to go to Lindórinand and start her journey of becoming more powerful in her magic. Sorcerer versus 'witch'? Yes please. Let it be all-out psychological war between them but let it be something.

Galadriel/Gandalf

I know that it seems like they've set up Gandalf for a conflict with the Dark Wizard (whoever he is; they are certainly still trying to be coy for some reason, saying stuff like "I don't see how he could be Saruman" – well, you're the writer, you tell me! lol). I would personally be very much in favor of him crossing paths with Galadriel. I think this is needed at some point and I'd rather they get to it earlier than later. Reason being: His purpose is to defeat Sauron. Her quest has been to defeat Sauron. He has the destiny, she has the drive. They can take baby magic steps together.

I did like the Stranger storyline in S1 but one thing that S2 failed to do, in my opinion, is actually giving Gandalf a strong feeling of who he is and what he is supposed to do, which is ironic given that this was supposedly his season of self-discovery (or at least him choosing his name at the end would imply as much). But really, what has he discovered? The mystics mentioned the name Sauron to him and then Tom Bombadil just laid it all out but do we have any sense of Gandalf actually knowing anything about Sauron beyond him being a vague evil force and feeling some type of way about it beyond his own general good nature?

If not through meeting Galadriel, Gandalf will have to face the consequences of Sauron's actions in some other way and the conflict will have to become more personal. Whether and how Tom Bombadil or the Dark Wizard figure into that is another question but I rather think Gandalf needs to become a person in his own right and not just a chess figure to be moved across a board.

Círdan/Gil-galad

Give them one meaningful interaction. Please, I beg of you. That's all.

Elrond/Míriel

Now, call me crazy but hear me out. I know S3 is probably about establishing Rivendell for Elrond and perhaps being drawn into the Dwarven succession drama. But I'm all for breaking up the isolation of storylines and I really rather want Elrond to make it to Númenor at some point. It's difficult to see how that would work once Sauron is captured and taken there (presumably at the end of S3), so part of me wants him to journey there as the herald of Gil-galad to try and open diplomatic channels and negotiate about the presence of Númenor in Middle-earth (see colonizing efforts by Kemen) as well as an alliance to defeat Sauron. This could then lead into Númenorean forces setting off to Middle-earth instead of a letter calling for help. I know this is rather out there but I want S3 to contain a flashback to Elrond and Elros and I want Elrond to meet Míriel and for her to be encouraged in her faith in the old ways because nothing good is coming for my girl and I want her to have that small comfort. (An Elrond/Elros flashback could also be a S4 opener, if that's the fall of Númenor season, but I rather think such an opener should focus on the people of Númenor while anything with Elros should be more about Elrond imo. There's nothing saying such a flashback couldn't open a S3 episode of Elrond going to Númenor. Doesn't have to be the season opener. For a S3 opener, maybe do a flashback with Gil-galad to the First Age. Or with Morgoth. Either or, for S3 or S5, however it relates best to the themes of those seasons.)

Elendil/Gil-galad

I think this might be something for S4, rather, since Elendil will presumably spend some time in S3 reconnecting with Anárion and perhaps, eventually, Isildur, though if the fall of Númenor is only at the end of S4, then that will only leave S5 to have any relationship between them, since obviously Elendil has to stay until the fall (not ready for the Míriel/Elendil tragedy... especially with his first wife having drowned...). Actually, maybe in the first half of S3 he can reconnect with Anárion and then in the second half through Elrond's arrival (that I'm willing into existence) and secret communications with Míriel learn about what's going down in Middle-earth and become a pen pal of Gil-galad or something. Or maybe they can zoom via palantíri. I have no idea but this is one of those relationships that the show really has to try and build up properly and not just toss in for the last season.

Sauron/Kemen

Time to start recruiting underlings and unlike many, I don't think you have to be cool to qualify for becoming a Ring-wraith. The more pathetic, the better. I wonder if Sauron will pose as the King of the Southlands again and how he will worm his way into the colonies if not through brute force, which he could, having access to Adar's orc armies now. It'll be interesting if he turns his persuasion on the son first and then in S4 on the father. He could also go East to duke it out with the Dark Wizard for a while but maybe that would be for the first half of the season. Whichever way I think about it, I feel like next season really needs to have more episodes and be one of two halves since there's so much for everyone to do, places to go, characters to meet.

Míriel/Eärien

Kinda burying the lede but my biggest disappointment with S2 was the relative lack of female characters and meaningful relationships for those we still retained. That was in part due to Bronwyn's departure but Nori and Poppy also had much less screentime and focus and characters like Míriel were much more tied to male characters unlike in S1. I do like Míriel/Elendil, just saying. They are now parted anyway and I hope we can see Eärien take on an interesting dynamic with Míriel, since she is not without empathy but torn between her allegiances. I foresee a bad end for her but I want her to go out fighting, maybe becoming a spy for the Faithful or in any case redeemed before the end. Unlike Kemen, who will surely not be redeemed and possibly even abandoned by his father to his fate, whatever that might be.

Celeborn

If he shows up, I want him to be a sweetheart. The ultimate wife guy. I have nothing against him or his inclusion, I just struggle to see how we'd have enough time to dedicate to his introduction to make it meaningful enough. And I don't think Galadriel needs a husband to be complete. That would be a bad look. On the other hand, if they handle it well, I wouldn't mind it, because I liked the way she talked about him in S1. But it's all a question of how it's framed narratively. Certainly, if anything, him showing up in her life should not "domesticate" her as some misogynists are hoping but rather empower her to become an even more assured independent figure.

Last Thoughts

I love Durin and Disa and the Dwarven storyline was one of the strongest in S1 and again in S2 (although I felt some redundancy there, but episode 5 handled it excellently, as did episode 8 with the beautiful payoff in the Balrog scene). However, the more I think about it, the more I feel like the Dwarves as well as the Harfoots need to take a backseat in S3. Unfortunately, the Dwarven storyline was the only one explicitly set up with mention of Durin's brother – okay, fine, introduce him if you have to but please do not do that to the detriment of the characters we already have and kind of desperately need to see interacting and growing if this show is to have emotional depth (and it showed in S1 and S2 that it can have that depth). Like, we have to go deeper, not broader. Stop expanding the cast, aside from minor characters who help populate the world and colour in some social white space. I like that we got Círdan this season and his interactions with Elrond were meaningful but since he's not part of the core constellation of the conflicts set up in S1, these types of additions run the risk of being novelty creations, meant to hype or appease lorebros in particular, without necessarily helping to advance the overall emotional arc. Now, it did work with Círdan, not least of all because Ben Daniels did excellent work, and Círdan has a role to play in the War of the Last Alliance, but I am a little apprehensive about the calls to add Celeborn, as mentioned, and Glorfindel. I do want to see the latter but leave it to S4 or S5. Concentrate on (1) Númenor, (2) Sauron's rise in Middle-earth and the opposition to his rise (by Galadriel, Gil-galad, Elrond), (3) Gandalf's mission intersecting with point 2.

That's it. That should be S3. The War of the Elves and Sauron. That's what should be reflected in the character dynamics. I hope we don't get ghost!Celebrimbor haunting Sauron, as I've seen suggested, much as I loved Charles Edwards' performance. An allusion is fine but let's keep it focussed on the living characters and how the events may yet shape their world. If anything, the overwhelmingly positive reaction to Sauron/Celebrimbor should show the showrunners that people are clamoring for juicy character drama and interactions, not necessarily action and battles. Put two compelling characters in a room and let them do their work, you don't need an expensive vfx extravaganza like the barrow-wights scene, you need to serve character and then, like in the Balrog scene, awesome effects can enhance that, but the emotional interest needs to be there and that's the first and arguably most important part. (Although, please, by all means, do continue with the awesome visuals!)

The plot should be exciting, of course, and I think this helped sharpen S2 towards the end with a sense of urgency and momentum that many enjoyed (myself included), but this only works so long as it is grounded in an emotional reality we can recognize amid heightened fantastical settings. I love this world and I love so many of the creative decisions Payne & McKay and the team have taken and I'm sure some restrictions (like the episode number) are somewhat out of their hands but I hope they can refine and remember the vision they had when they started S1 without it fraying at the ends or buckling under the pressure of former haters who don't even make up the majority of the audience nor were ever mature enough to articulate their hate for the storytelling choices in S1 beyond basic sexism/racism and a fundamental misunderstanding of themes that were dear to Tolkien. Adaptations always invite comparison and discussion but at the end of the day, The Rings of Power is a television series and while it does not have to – and in fact should not – bow to every trend and trope constituting what is seen as respectable "gritty" prestige TV, it should, in my opinion, strive to be dark, twisted, wholesome, whatever it wants to be.

Give me unexpected interactions, give me friendship, give me knights and queens and powers and magic, give me loyalty and deceit, light and dark, monsters and men, slow burn and pay off, arcs spanning seasons.

In short: Give me fantasy and give it to me raw. But give it to me like a novel that unfolds page by page, not something chopped up to make room for xyz demand from a focus group. I'm in it for the characters and what is true to them. I hope that center holds. The door for S3 is wide open in many directions for many of the characters, so I think it'll really be the season that makes (or breaks) the show. Even at its worst, I would probably still enjoy whatever they cook up, but part of me really wants to see them reach those higher dramatic heights (of character drama) that are right there for the taking.

Anyone agree or disagree? I ask, as if anyone has made it this far lol Well, thanks if you did, I guess I needed to get some things off my chest. Here's to hoping.

[waitingforsecretsouls]

Fëanor and succession

"High princes were Fëanor and Fingolfin, the elder sons of Finwë, honoured by all in Aman; but now they grew proud and jealous each of his rights and his possessions. Then Melkor set new lies abroad in Eldamar, and whispers came to Fëanor that Fingolfin and his sons were plotting to usurp the leadership of Finwë and of the elder line of Fëanor, and to supplant them by the leave of the Valar; for the Valar were ill-pleased that the Silmarils lay in Tirion and were not committed to their keeping." - The Silmarillion, Chapter 07: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

„Though after the rule of the Noldor was committed to him [Fingolfin] by Manwë (in place of his elder brother and father) he took the name of Finwë.“ -Morgoth’s Ring, The Later Quenta Silmarillion (II)

"He [Fëanor] claimed now the kingship of all the Noldor, since Finwë was dead, and he scorned the decrees of the Valar." -The Silmarillion, Chapter 09: Of the Flight of the Noldor

"As he [Fëanor] said with some justice: ‘My brother’s claim rests only upon a decree of the Valar; but of what force is that for those who have rejected them and seek to escape from their prison-land?’" -The Peoples of Middle - Earth, Chapter 11: The Shibboleth of Fëanor

"Therefore even as Mandos foretold the House of Fëanor were called the Dispossessed, because the overlordship passed from it, the elder, to the house of Fingolfin, both in Elendë and in Beleriand, and because also of the loss of the Silmarils." -The Silmarillion, Chapter 13: Of the Return of the Noldor

"With him into banishment went his seven sons, and northward in Valinor they made a strong place and treasury in the hills; and there at Formenos a multitude of gems were laid in hoard, and weapons also, and the Silmarils were shut in a chamber of iron. Thither also came Finwë the King, because of the love that he bore to Fëanor; and Fingolfin ruled the Noldor in Tirion. Thus the lies of Melkor were made true in seeming, though Fëanor by his own deeds had brought this thing to pass; and the bitterness that Melkor had sown endured, and lived still long afterwards between the sons of Fingolfin and Fëanor." -The Silmarillion, Chapter 07: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

"One thing only marred the design of Manwë. Fëanor came indeed, for him alone Manwë had commanded to come; but Finwë came not, nor any others of the Noldor of Formenos. For said Finwë: ‘While the ban lasts upon Fëanor my son, that he may not go to Tirion, I hold myself unkinged, and I will not meet my people.’" -The Silmarillion, Chapter 08: Of the Darkening of Valinor

"Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwë to Ñolofinwë before the Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance of his claim to be the chieftain of all the Ñoldor after the death of Finwë, and so enraged Fëanor that it was no doubt one of the reasons for his treachery in abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships." -The Peoples of Middle - Earth, Chapter 11: The Shibboleth of Fëanor

"So it came about that to Fëanor the rejection of þ became a symbol of the rejection of Míriel, and of himself, as her son, as the chief of the Noldor next to Finwë: […] So Fëanor would call himself 'Son of the þerindë', and when his sons in their chilhood asked why their kin in the house of Finwë used s for þ he answered: 'Take no heed! We speak as is right, and as King Finwë himself did before he was led astray. We are his heirs by right and the elder house. Let them sá – sí, if they can speak no better.'" -The Peoples of Middle – Earth, Chapter 11: The Shibboleth of Fëanor

"To his sons Finwë gave his own name as he had done to Fëanor. This maybe was done to assert their claim to be his legitimate sons, equal in that respect to his eldest child Kurufinwë Fayanáro, but there was no intention of arousing discord among the brothers, since nothing in the judgement of the Valar in any way impaired Fëanor’s position and rights as his eldest son. Nothing indeed was ever done to impair them, except by Fëanor himself; and in spite of all that later happened his eldest son remained nearest to Finwë’s heart." -The Peoples of Middle- Earth, Chapter 11: The Shibboleth of Fëanor