#obviously i do not believe that being dicks to anti endos is going to in any way make them suddenly be pro endo

[tempesttz]

you see the thing here is that analogy doesn't work here because pro endos don't tell anti endos to kill themselves frequently (if we do not count the fringe outliers). it's not bigoted. it's a middle school insult at best.

op is likely responding to seeing a lot of fucked up things said about people by saying something rude about that group of people saying fucked up things about people.

if you swapped "anti-endo" for "someone who posts on or engages with r/FDC or r/systemscringe," would you still disagree the OP would still be fine to vent? or would that suddenly be a group Mean Enough To Be Mean To? "these people say really awful things. i think they're a plague on the community and am expressing heavy distaste for them" "BIGOTED!"

can we not water down that word please

As a reminder: Anti-Endos can go fuck themselves, I don't like you and I never will. We will never be friends, you're a fucking plague on the community and I hate you. Fix your fucking hearts. Sincerely, a traumagenic system.

[sysmedsaresexist]

ive seen more sysmeds spread misinformation about plurality and even CDD systems than pro endos. not to say that pro endos dont say incorrect things about CDDs or traumagenic systems, but i will say, pro endos cite their sources a lots more and sysmeds act like the carrds they make are Scripture so... i wonder what makes you say that the endo community "push and believe in so much misinformation" so often but dont often acknowledge the sysmeds who do the same thing except waaay more?

I'm not the mod who said that but I have complicated views on both of your opinions...

We have to recognize that CDDs are some of the most misunderstood disorders out there. While ALL disorders are misunderstood, CDDs have a long history of controversy-after-controversy, delegitimizing campaigns purposefully targeting them, and even the professional field is severely lacking education in them. Misinformation on CDDs is everywhere, even in the CDD community. But I think the misinformation is perhaps less in this community because we literally have the disorder in question.

It makes sense that a lot of us are at least somewhat educated on our own experience. Even someone who has no education at all still has lived experience. So, no DUH the endogenic community is less educated, more misinformed than us. I'd argue that mostly all communities outside of CDDs are the same in that regard.

As for who spreads more misinformation...this is a stupid argument. It's literally just a dick misinformation measuring contest. It's pointless.

How about we acknowledge that there are shitty, misinformed people in all walks of syscourse labels? I've been active in the communities for almost a decade now. I've been on all sides, pro-endo to anti-endo, endo-neutral, unlabeled, to pro-endo again. There is literally no "worse" side. They can both be equally shitty, equally misinformed, equally needing to go outside and engage in nature.

If you involve yourself in pro-endo syscourse, then you're going to see the worst of the anti-endos. If you involve yourself in anti-endo syscourse, you're going to see the worst of the pro-endos.

The mod who said endogenics are less willing to change than singlets was very recently anti-endo (they aren't anymore but still take that into consideration). When I was anti-endo, I never saw a good endogenic ever. Only the worst of the pro-endos wanted to engage with me, to fight obviously, and I mostly saw screenshots of endogenics being rather terrible. That made me want to stay even further away from them because it convinced me the majority were misinformation-spreading ableists, never willing to listen or change.

Hey! I bet that sounds a lot like how you view anti-endos! And probably how a lot of anti-endos view pro-endos!

Yet, once I started actually talking to endogenics & endo supporters outside of syscourse, I found out the majority of them are not like that at all. Even if we had completely different opinions about plurality. And if you never investigate a person's beliefs beyond what you assume about their label, you'll never discover that a ton of systems who identify as pro-endo are actually a lot more anti-endo than some systems who identify as a anti-endo. Vice versa.

TLDR ; If your only exposure to a group of people is through the lens of discourse, you're only going to know the worst of them.

[tired-boy-discursed]

<that there's a difference between hunting people down to harass them and me being a dick to harassing anons.>

@queerautism

@hyaena-bites

@the-laplace-system

Ok, so what I'm seeing from both side is that you three (not Pearl + Levi) seem to believe that it's entirely ok to go out of your way to harass and attack trauma survivors but as soon as someone stands up for themselves or their parts or partners than they're being a hypocrite?

Please, make it make sense.

So, if an anti endo were to do the exact same things yall are doing. (going out of your way to attack people simply because they put a single tag on their post) they would obviously be in the wrong. But because you guys are the ones doing it that makes it okay? Get the Fuck out of here with the hypocritical bullshit.

While I do not agree with threats on either side of the discourse how do you not see the difference between defending yourself and attacking people for the fun of it

[fagsystem]

I am talking about spaces that have nothing to do with syscourse. In fact, I was referencing a specific queer space. I personally am not of the opinion that not all anti-endogenics deserve to be barred from safe spaces for them as a minority because some of them are horrible people.

And I am not talking about spaces that are designed to be endogenic friendly. I am talking about spaces that are designed to be removed from syscourse. Obviously endogenic friendly spaces are going to not include anti-endogenics in any capacity.

I am talking about this very mindset where it is the horrible behaviours of different groups in syscourse to syscourse. I personally think a server states in its rules, "This is a safe space for everyone, and in order to be here you must be kind and respectful to everyone and their experiences," is far more beneficial to removing syscourse from a space than by saying no anti-endogenics.

I am not saying you have to be comfortable in spaces like this. I am saying syscourse is not the be-all-end-all of what makes someone a good or bad person. If someone is cruel and disrespectful to endogenic systems, that is not a problem because it is syscourse its a problem because they're a dick.

The biggest issue with syscourse is the hard lines people draw in the sand, where either you are anti endo or pro endo. That there's a big set of ideas and beliefs that each specific group has and you must believe all of it. Having spaces that claim to be safe from syscourse being built on those harsh divides is the least productive thing in my opinion to bettering things for all systems. Someone who has problems with the endogenic community having no option but spaces where people hate endogenics is pushing them into an echo chamber. It helps no one.

You can create safe spaces that are safe for endogenic systems without it being based on syscourse. That is because they are deserving of the same care, compassion, and respect everyone fucking else is. I am so sick and tired of how many people act like that mistreatment of them is just syscourse. And you're not then one I'm saying I am sick of you know better than I do about that specifically but I just.

Sorry I'm just real drunk right now. And I probably could word all of this better. I am thankful for autocorrect and if anything did not make sense tell me. I just. It's. So frustrating to me to see people centre syscourse in everything, even things that they're explicitly stating have nothing to do with syscourse.

If you feel like you have to walk around on eggshells with everyone who calls themselves anti-endogenic that's fine. You do not have to be in shared spaces. But to act like I can't be upset that those spaces don't exist and that people centre syscourse and syscourse labels in literally everything that they're explicitly stating has nothing to do with syscourse, that's. No.

I'm really drunk and can't finish this coherently. Switched half way through. Hope you got it.

I am strongly of the opinion that if a space is a 'no syscourse' space, then it should be an inclusive space.

The existence of people who are plural for reasons outside of CDDs is not inherently discourse. Regardless of your personal thoughts on their existence or validity, the experiences they have that cause them to call themselves plural is not discourse. It is some living person's real experiences. Those experiences are not defined by other people finding it contentious topic.

I have just seen so many spaces that are 'no syscourse' but also 'no endos'. Everyone else is fine, singlet or system, but not endos. That is not 'no syscourse', that's a space built on sysource.

Much the same, a 'no syscourse' space should be inclusive to people regardless of syscourse stance, including anti-endos.

And if this is sounding crazy to you, like "Oh, but endos are inherently ableist!" or "Oh, but anti-endos hate endos for existing!" then you really need to step back from syscourse. Neither of those things are problems exclusive to syscourse. Those are problems about ableism and cruelty to others. Those problems can be resolved by having just general rules for spaces such as, "Don't spread misinformation," and "Be kind to others."

Many endogenics are wonderful people who combat misinformation about CDD systems. Many anti-endogenics do not actually hate endogenics or even disbelieve their experiences. Everyone is just a person who you are reducing to nothing but syscourse. Not even their participation in it, but the groups they are tied to.

A space that's really no syscourse should not be based in syscourse. It is fine if you want a space where syscourse is not discussed, but if you are building it on reducing people to syscourse, then it is a space built on syscourse. It is a syscourse centric space. That is not what I would call a no syscourse space.