#not to mention when he dies would she ascend to the 'divine throne' or whatever

[melanodis]

if henry is god then what does that make charlie?

[zoneofsmites]

Now that i've finally finished bg2 and throne of bhaal, can I just say that Bhaal's resurrection in wotc canon does not make sense to me? The one as described in the Murder in Baldur's Gate module.

Let me pop off under the readmore, I have things to say and a bone to pick with wotc about the way they clearly ignore bg2 established lore.

(yes its their IP, they can do whatever they want. I can also be disappointed by it and think its poorly thought out bullshit)

Melissa: One of his priesthood needed to have access to the essence that would be collected from the Bhaalspawn... one of his priesthood would have to perform the neccessary rites to give the dead Lord of Murder back that essence.

As stated by Melissan/Amalyssan (by the word of Bhaal himself, for he told her this) just killing the bhaalspawn (thereby returning their essence) would not have been enough to revive Bhaal. It requires a ritual, likely in Bhaal's planar domain where the final battle of bg2 takes place and the bhaalspawn essence automatically regathers.

Solar: The vast majority of the soul essence of the children of Bhaal, Lord of Murder, now belong to you and you alone. You must now decide what to do with this power... Be wise -- the choice is irrevocable.

While Solar hints that not all bhaalspawn are likely death. At the least the vast majority of his essence is returned. Enough to perform the ritual. Enough for Gorian's Ward to ascend to godhood in their father's place. So this doesn't conflict with Murder in BG (and bg3) and the presence of bhaalspawn still.

What does conflict is the way Murder in BG proclaim 'the last bhaalspawn die'. The last bhaalspawn being wotc canon Gorian's Ward, Abdel Adrian, and effectively some random guy. These two duking it out and dying is somehow enough to revive Bhaal.

Even though Bhaal told his own priest he could only be revived after enough essence had returned and a ritual was performed by his own priesthood?

"But Idle" I hear you say, "Bhaal could've told others of his former priesthood. They could've performed the ritual in the background in Murder in BG."

If Bhaal did we still have to account for the fact that Bhaal died, scattering and destroying any organised religion (that was already scattered and unorganised to begin with). Many priests converted to Cyric, others just died. Not to mention by the time Murder in BG happens it has been 126 years since Bhaal died in the Time of Troubles. Leaving only a few races (like [half]elves and perhaps dwarves) who could be priests and have survived till then.

Even then, I must ask. If these hypothetical other priests knew how to revive Bhaal. Why weren't they trying to do so during the Bhaalspawn crisis. The prime moment to do so. But no, it was only Amalyssan. If there were any other priests, she likely killed them when they made it to Bhaal's domain to make the attempt, so she could have the power alone.

But for the sake of the argument, lets pretend there is another priests who has survived and knows of the ritual.

Here's why it's still bullshit:

Solar: Surrendering the essence will allow the gods to remove its evil taint and hide it well within the halls of Mount Celestial, forever preventing it from soiling further souls.

Canon wotc, according to Murder in BG, has a Gorian's Ward named Abdel Adrian. Abdel is a human and has clearly not risen to divinity. Abdel has therefore given up his Bhaalspawn essence. Ignoring the fact that the human Abdel Adrian is alive 113 years post BG2 (living around 50y~ more than the average human). Because to be mortal required giving up the Bhaalspawn essence that Murder in BG reasons was the last bit of essence needed to revive Bhaal somehow. Which Abdel shouldn't have anymore. Because he's mortal.

By all accounts. Bhaal's resurrection, as per wotc canon, goes against what BG2 establishes.

(also boo, why is becoming a mortal the canon wotc choice. rising to divinity is the more fun and interesting option)

[amunvulcan]

Fortuna (Latin: Fortūna, equivalent to the Greek goddess Tyche) is the goddess of fortune and the personification of luck in Roman religion who, largely thanks to the Late Antique author Boethius, remained popular through the Middle Ages until at least the Renaissance. The blindfolded depiction of her is still an important figure in many aspects of today's Italian culture, where the dichotomy fortuna / sfortuna (luck / unluck) plays a prominent role in everyday social life, also represented by the very common refrain "La [dea] fortuna è cieca" (latin Fortuna caeca est; "Luck [goddess] is blind").

Fortuna is often depicted with a gubernaculum (ship's rudder), a ball or Rota Fortunae (wheel of fortune, first mentioned by Cicero) and a cornucopia (horn of plenty). She might bring good or bad luck: she could be represented as veiled and blind, as in modern depictions of Lady Justice, except that Fortuna does not hold a balance. Fortuna came to represent life's capriciousness. She was also a goddess of fate: as Atrox Fortuna, she claimed the young lives of the princeps Augustus' grandsons Gaius and Lucius, prospective heirs to the Empire.[1] (In antiquity she was also known as Automatia.)[2]

Fortuna's father was said to be Jupiter and like him, she could also be bountiful (Copia). As Annonaria she protected grain supplies. June 11 was consecrated to her: on June 24 she was given cult at the festival of Fors Fortuna.[4][5] Fortuna's name seems to derive from Vortumna (she who revolves the year).[citation needed]

Roman writers disagreed whether her cult was introduced to Rome by Servius Tullius[6] or Ancus Marcius.[7] The two earliest temples mentioned in Roman Calendars were outside the city, on the right bank of the Tiber (in Italian Trastevere). The first temple dedicated to Fortuna was attributed to the Etruscan Servius Tullius, while the second is known to have been built in 293 BC as the fulfilment of a Roman promise made during later Etruscan wars.[8] The date of dedication of her temples was 24 June, or Midsummer's Day, when celebrants from Rome annually floated to the temples downstream from the city. After undisclosed rituals they then rowed back, garlanded and inebriated.[9] Also Fortuna had a temple at the Forum Boarium. Here Fortuna was twinned with the cult of Mater Matuta (the goddesses shared a festival on 11 June), and the paired temples have been revealed in the excavation beside the church of Sant'Omobono: the cults are indeed archaic in date.[10] Fortuna Primigenia of Praeneste was adopted by Romans at the end of 3rd century BC in an important cult of Fortuna Publica Populi Romani (the Official Good Luck of the Roman People) on the Quirinalis outside the Porta Collina.[11] No temple at Rome, however, rivalled the magnificence of the Praenestine sanctuary.

Fortuna's identity as personification of chance events was closely tied to virtus (strength of character). Public officials who lacked virtues invited ill-fortune on themselves and Rome: Sallust uses the infamous Catiline as illustration – "Truly, when in the place of work, idleness, in place of the spirit of measure and equity, caprice and pride invade, fortune is changed just as with morality".[12]

An oracle at the Temple of Fortuna Primigena in Praeneste used a form of divination in which a small boy picked out one of various futures that were written on oak rods. Cults to Fortuna in her many forms are attested throughout the Roman world. Dedications have been found to Fortuna Dubia (doubtful fortune), Fortuna Brevis (fickle or wayward fortune) and Fortuna Mala (bad fortune).

Fortuna is found in a variety of domestic and personal contexts. During the early Empire, an amulet from the House of Menander in Pompeii links her to the Egyptian goddess Isis, as Isis-Fortuna.[13] She is functionally related to the god Bonus Eventus,[14] who is often represented as her counterpart: both appear on amulets and intaglio engraved gems across the Roman world. In the context of the early republican period account of Coriolanus, in around 488 BC the Roman senate dedicated a temple to Fortuna on account of the services of the matrons of Rome in saving the city from destruction.[15] Evidence of Fortuna worship has been found as far north as Castlecary, Scotland[16] and an altar and statue can now be viewed at the Hunterian Museum in Glasgow.[17]

The earliest reference to the Wheel of Fortune, emblematic of the endless changes in life between prosperity and disaster, is from 55 BC.[18] In Seneca's tragedy Agamemnon, a chorus addresses Fortuna in terms that would remain almost proverbial, and in a high heroic ranting mode that Renaissance writers would emulate:

O Fortune, who dost bestow the throne's high boon with mocking hand, in dangerous and doubtful state thou settest the too exalted. Never have sceptres obtained calm peace or certain tenure; care on care weighs them down, and ever do fresh storms vex their souls. ... great kingdoms sink of their own weight, and Fortune gives way ‘neath the burden of herself. Sails swollen with favouring breezes fear blasts too strongly theirs; the tower which rears its head to the very clouds is beaten by rainy Auster. ... Whatever Fortune has raised on high, she lifts but to bring low. Modest estate has longer life; then happy he whoe’er, content with the common lot, with safe breeze hugs the shore, and, fearing to trust his skiff to the wider sea, with unambitious oar keeps close to land.[19]

Ovid's description is typical of Roman representations: in a letter from exile[20] he reflects ruefully on the “goddess who admits by her unsteady wheel her own fickleness; she always has its apex beneath her swaying foot.”

Fortuna did not disappear from the popular imagination with the ascendancy of Christianity.[21] Saint Augustine took a stand against her continuing presence, in the City of God: "How, therefore, is she good, who without discernment comes to both the good and to the bad?...It profits one nothing to worship her if she is truly fortune... let the bad worship her...this supposed deity".[22] In the 6th century, the Consolation of Philosophy, by statesman and philosopher Boethius, written while he faced execution, reflected the Christian theology of casus, that the apparently random and often ruinous turns of Fortune's Wheel are in fact both inevitable and providential, that even the most coincidental events are part of God's hidden plan which one should not resist or try to change. Fortuna, then, was a servant of God,[23] and events, individual decisions, the influence of the stars were all merely vehicles of Divine Will. In succeeding generations Boethius' Consolation was required reading for scholars and students. Fortune crept back into popular acceptance, with a new iconographic trait, "two-faced Fortune", Fortuna bifrons; such depictions continue into the 15th century.[24]

The ubiquitous image of the Wheel of Fortune found throughout the Middle Ages and beyond was a direct legacy of the second book of Boethius's Consolation. The Wheel appears in many renditions from tiny miniatures in manuscripts to huge stained glass windows in cathedrals, such as at Amiens. Lady Fortune is usually represented as larger than life to underscore her importance. The wheel characteristically has four shelves, or stages of life, with four human figures, usually labeled on the left regnabo (I shall reign), on the top regno (I reign) and is usually crowned, descending on the right regnavi (I have reigned) and the lowly figure on the bottom is marked sum sine regno (I have no kingdom). Medieval representations of Fortune emphasize her duality and instability, such as two faces side by side like Janus; one face smiling the other frowning; half the face white the other black; she may be blindfolded but without scales, blind to justice. She was associated with the cornucopia, ship's rudder, the ball and the wheel. The cornucopia is where plenty flows from, the Helmsman's rudder steers fate, the globe symbolizes chance (who gets good or bad luck), and the wheel symbolizes that luck, good or bad, never lasts.

Fortuna lightly balances the

orb

of sovereignty between thumb and finger in a Dutch painting of

ca

1530 (

Musée des Beaux-Arts de Strasbourg

)

Fortune would have many influences in cultural works throughout the Middle Ages. In Le Roman de la Rose, Fortune frustrates the hopes of a lover who has been helped by a personified character "Reason". In Dante's Inferno (vii.67-96), Virgil explains the nature of Fortune, both a devil and a ministering angel, subservient to God. Boccaccio's De Casibus Virorum Illustrium ("The Fortunes of Famous Men"), used by John Lydgate to compose his Fall of Princes, tells of many where the turn of Fortune's wheel brought those most high to disaster, and Boccaccio essay De remedii dell'una e dell'altra Fortuna, depends upon Boethius for the double nature of Fortuna. Fortune makes her appearance in Carmina Burana (see image). The Christianized Lady Fortune is not autonomous: illustrations for Boccaccio's Remedii show Fortuna enthroned in a triumphal car with reins that lead to heaven.[25]

Fortuna also appears in chapter 25 of Machiavelli's The Prince, in which he says Fortune only rules one half of men's fate, the other half being of their own will. Machiavelli reminds the reader that Fortune is a woman, that she favours a strong, ambitious hand, and that she favours the more aggressive and bold young man than a timid elder. Monteverdi's opera L'incoronazione di Poppea features Fortuna, contrasted with the goddess Virtue. Even Shakespeare was no stranger to Lady Fortune:

When in disgrace with Fortune and men's eyes I all alone beweep my outcast state...

Ignatius J Reilly, the protagonist in the famous John Kennedy Toole novel A Confederacy of Dunces, identifies Fortuna as the agent of change in his life. A verbose, preposterous medievalist, Ignatius is of the mindset that he does not belong in the world and that his numerous failings are the work of some higher power. He continually refers to Fortuna as having spun him downwards on her wheel of luck, as in “Oh, Fortuna, you degenerate wanton!”

In astrology the term Pars Fortuna represents a mathematical point in the zodiac derived by the longitudinal positions of the Sun, Moon and Ascendant (Rising sign) in the birth chart of an individual. It represents an especially beneficial point in the horoscopic chart. In Arabic astrology, this and similar points are called Arabian Parts.

Al-Biruni (973 – 1048), an 11th-century mathematician, astronomer, and scholar, who was the greatest proponent of this system of prediction, listed a total of 97 Arabic Parts, which were widely used for astrological consultations.

Aspects[edit]

Lady Fortune in a

Boccaccio

manuscript

Sculpture of Fortuna,

Vienna

La Fortune

by

Charles Samuel

(1894), Collection

King Baudouin Foundation

Fortuna Annonaria brought the luck of the harvest

Fortuna Belli the fortune of war

Fortuna Primigenia directed the fortune of a firstborn child at the moment of birth

Fortuna Virilis ("Luck in men"), a woman's luck in marriage[26]

Fortuna Redux brought one safely home

Fortuna Respiciens the fortune of the provider

Fortuna Muliebris the luck of a woman.

Fortuna Victrix brought victory in battle

Fortuna Augusta the fortune of the emperor[27]

Fortuna Balnearis the fortune of the baths.[27]

Fortuna Conservatrix the fortune of the Preserver[28]

Fortuna Equestris fortune of the Knights.[28]

Fortuna Huiusce Diei fortune of the present day.[28]

Fortuna Obsequens fortune of indulgence.[28]

Fortuna Privata fortune of the private individual.[28]

Fortuna Publica fortune of the people.[28]

Fortuna Romana fortune of Rome.[28]

Fortuna Virgo fortune of the virgin.[28]

Fortuna Faitrix the fortune of life

Pars Fortuna

Fortuna Barbata the fortune of adolescents becoming adults[29]

[nyardynn]

Plotholes of FF15; the ultimate edition

It’s come to my attention that with the plot being as wonky and contradictory, many (including me) find it hard to decide what’s a plothole and what’s simply a part left vague by the game. I’ve made a list of all the plotholes I could think about so far which is..uh.. quite the long read. I’ve wanted to have it though while waiting for the new DLCs.

1. Ravus is made responsible for the Niflheim army’s huge defeat in Altissia and sentenced to death, however we can see him well and free walking into the Emperor’s throne room in Zegnautus Keep. Since at this time almost the entirety of Niflheim has fallen victim to the starscourge it’s possible he escaped somehow and came to finish the Emperor off, but the game explains nothing.

2. The starscourge seems to be an illness progressing either very fast or very slowly, possibly at a pace chosen by Ardyn himself if he so wills it. Emperor Aldercapt is mentioned to have infected himself with the scourge shortly after Ardyn’s appearance at his court which was 30 years before he transformed, meanwhile Ravus turned into a demon mere minutes, maybe an hour after infection. Again the game explains nothing

3. Ifrit got infected with the starscourge by a mysterious man who is given no name but who can only be Ardyn. If Ardyn apparently can kill and infect gods, why did he not infect any of the others so they would abandon Noctis and fight for his cause instead? We know the Empire has killed many gods including Shiva whose dead body still lies where its fallen on Niflheim grounds.

4. The gods die but they also don’t. Both Shiva and Titan are canonly dead and you can see Shiva’s dead body, however both are also alive spiritually (?) aiding you in battle.

5.  Ardyn is the only creature who didn't die from the starscourge, it just made him a godlike being instead. Why?

6. Bahamut delivered the prophecy to mankind telling of a king of kings to be chosen to save the world, a thing the gods want to happen because they have sworn to protect mankind - still every single one of them except Shiva and the Fulgurian try to kill Noctis. That means despite Bahamut revealing to Regis that his son is the chosen one when he was only a toddler, apparently noone else believes it and everyone doubts his ‘chosen-ness’. Get your shit together, gods.

7. Ardyn was known and worshipped as an extraordinarily selfless man who healed millions of the starscourge, however that led to him infecting himself eventually which caused the events of FF15 and the world being plunged into eternal darkness. Lunafreya has also been given the power to heal the starscourge - by Bahamut, if you believe the cosmogony which states he descended to Eos to handpick a maiden to be the first oracle. Are we to assume Ardyn was a prototype gone wrong who then was cast aside in favour of a new healer type? Or does Luna maybe infect herself slowly? Which leads us to the next point...

8. Lunafreya is sick. A cutscene taking place in Altissia has her weak and pleading to Ravus to take the ring and give it to Noctis, because she fears she will not be able to any longer, because her body is already failing her. We are however never told what this weakness is and it is literally never shown except in this scene. Is it the ‘prize of the covenant’ Ardyn mentions to know well, also in Altissia? Does doing her oracle duty sap her of life (sounds ineffective)? Or is that prize the starscourge? Or is the ring somehow killing her like the ring of Sauron??

9. For Bahamut to give the oracle her powers to heal the scourge, obviously he himself must be able to heal the scourge, however he never does.... was making Ardyn wait for 2000 years until Noctis could sacrifice his sad life for him a sick form of entertainment? Or can he just not heal Ardyn somehow? Whatever it is, Bahamut heals noone ever, not so sworn to protect humankind after all, I guess. See number 7.

10. Ardyn is often referred to as a chosen king, however we are explicitely told he was forbidden to ascend. Many believe this means the crystal never chose him and that seems to be what happened regarding his grudge against the crystal especially. What relativizes this again though is the cosmogony itself: “There once was a man born a mortal but blessed with powers divine. Conjuring a collection of glaives he dispelled the darkness plaguing our star. As a reward for his efforts the gods granted him a holy stone” - The Crystal, which he was to guard at all cost. Cleansing the world of the scourge in his time is a thing Somnus The Mystic is known for. That means the Crystal was given to mankind AFTER Ardyn became ‘the lost son’. Except the cosmogony was rewritten to exclude Ardyn which means the cosmogony is not a reliable source of history and lore at all. Seems like it, because being written out of history (again) is a thing Ardyn is concerned over when he dies. However what seems to be another fact making all of this more confusing is that according to Ardyn Somnus, if he got the crystal or not, himself was not chosen by the time he had Ardyn executed. Possibly he never was. Possibly noone ever was except Noctis who seems to be Ardyn’s successor in all ways possible. In their last fight Ardyn refers to Noctis as the chosen king, but ‘a second rate chosen at best’ seemingly referring to himself who was definitely sheduled to be chosen 2000 years ago. Maybe all of this is intentionally confusing and contradictory, but due to the missing pieces it is literally impossible to figure out the truth so it remains a plothole: was Ardyn meant to be the king of kings? Was he supposed to be ‘just’ the first king? Was Ardyn given the crystal or was Somnus? We will never know until maybe Episode Ardyn hopefully.

11. Ascended Noctis is - apparently - immortal. Ardyn who is pretty much the only character at this point who we can assume to know his shit explains his motives to Noctis as he is being pulled into the crystal the following way: “Killing you as a mortal will bring me scant satisfaction.” Evidently the King of Kings is immortal, at least in a way that he can not die a natural death.

12. If Ardyn was a prototype of the King of Kings who failed maybe the starscourge did not kill him because he was always meant to be immortal? Ardyn really is the gods’ fault, isn’t he? Pure food for thought though. You can fill a book with Ardyn theories due to the massively wonky plot of FF15.

12. Ascended Noctis is maybe not only immortal, but definitely more powerful than the gods. The gods can’t kill Ardyn. They can’t restore light. Bahamut actually explains to Noctis inside the crystal that his ascension will elevate him above the gods. We are never told why Noctis has to die to fulfill the prophecy though and if you accept Episode Ignis as being a valid alternate universe, a what-if path where all mechanics of Eos are still in effect, then very clearly Noctis never really had to die, it is just what Bahamut tells him. Maybe the ‘blood prize’ that needs to be paid is really only the gods’ hubris of not wanting another deity that is stronger than them ruling their little SIMS world of a kingdom. Like the blood prize Nyx pays for using the ring. Bunch a’assholes. See number 9.

13. Now on to Prompto. Dear god, Prompto is a gold mine. Prompto says in Zegnautus Keep that he always knew his barcode was the sign of an MT and that he is really from Niflheim, but it’s not something he could just tell his Lucian friends. So Prompto apparently knew MTs are somehow made from humans, however in his own Episode he seems shocked by the reveal.

14. However did Prompto know anyway if he was rescued as a baby? Did his step parents know and tell him later? Who the fuck are his step parents and why does this not have any role at all in the game?? If his step parents knew, who else fucking knows about MTs? Did Regis know? Deemed a plothole because if Regis did not know then his wall is apparently not as safe as he thinks for Niflheim people to sneak in and raise an MT there and if he DID know then he really oughta have known he was sending an MT with Noct who could betray him at any time which was actually supposed to happen in early scripts.

15. MTs start out as babies, however all of the Prompto clones we see in Episode Prompto are adults, which means they either give them about 20 years to grow into a demon core which is unlikely since they’ve had MTs for a long time and in huge numbers or the clones just grow super fast. Prompto however doesn’t age super fast. Something here is either lazy coding or very, very fucky.

16. What actually is an MT? Clearly MTs are mainly made from metal and not at all a human or demon in a suit though it is still a common misconception in parts of the fandom. They don’t bleed when they die, instead they give off electric sparks and show dozens of broken wires next to miasma. Their bodies are decidedly human looking, they can be programmed which is an integral part of their function lest they become violent and uncontrollable and they also move decidedly robotic. Our best guess at this point is that the demon core is the essence of a demon condensed into a ‘battery’ that is shielded from light by its purely robotic body. According to the files you find on MTs the reason human clones are chosen for the process is that they do not suffer a loss of ego and do not go insane which normal humans did when they used regular citizens. I assume that means the clones do not have a sense of self since they never were self-aware to begin with. They became conscious already being MTs. And then we have Episode Prompto where apparently an MT fears death which clearly indicates an ego. Or maybe that was Prom’s imagination, after all he also fantasized his childhood self…

17. Ardyn seems to know a lot about Solheim technology to be able to give Niflheim the ability to create advanced robotic soldiers or the tech to develop airships… quite a savvy chosen king for a time in which any and all Solheim technology was shunned by the gods as heretical. Either Ardyn never was such a holy messiah or very, very much of that Solheim tech was still present in everyday life in Ardyn’s time… provided the gods were cool with their king meant to lead people back to faith using any of it. Since, you know, the gods hated Solheim. That’s why they made Lucis.

18. The Ring according to the cosmogony is the sign for someone fit to rule, however also according to the cosmogony the ring can be weilded by everyone who’s worthy, not only the king. We see this confirmed in Nyx and Ignis. That strongly indicates not everyone in the long line of the Lucis Caelum was worthy either and in fact there are only a very short number of kings resting inside the ring including Regis who very obviously wore and used it. It seems to me we are led to believe putting on the ring is always a risk even for a Lucis Caelum; they might be burned and killed just like everybody else. That appears to fit the obvious fear in Noctis to put on the ring which he then only does because Ardyn took all his other weapons. The kings inside the ring don’t seem to see things the way the cosmogony does in any way condescending Nyx for being ‘not even a king’ - so what is it really? 

I’ll stop here though I’m sure I could think of more if I tried. The truth is, FF15 could have done with some more proper development time to clear out many of these issues. I’d love to hear more of these if anyone has some more!