#not DIRECTLY sotr but I HAD TO

[itsajollyjester]

I don’t precisely know how to phrase this, and truly, I have too many things I would simply die to see in your wonderful style, so I can throw some potential inspiration out there:

1. (More THG adjacent but) I am so compelled by the fact that Lenore Dove, Lucy Gray, and Peeta all have a connection to the color orange … would you ever draw a Lenore Dove-centric piece with nods to LGB & P?

2. And then of course any scene with Haymitch … I simply love the way you illustrate him … particularly the way you show us scenes from the trilogy from his POV … 👀👀👀👀

3. Orrr maybe, more SOTR specific … Burdock (perhaps emerging from the mist in the woods as he does) and the Covey graves …

But honestly, I’ll gobble up anything you create with a spoon. A spoon, I tell you.

All very very very good suggestions!

BUT something people might not know about me is Burdock has been one of my absolute FAVORITE HG characters for YEARS now (when his name was revealed my reaction actually startled my friend I was with)

And in the epilogue Haymitch’s mentions him proudly touting baby Katniss around

I HAD to draw him proudly with both his little girls

[diamondsunbursts-and-marblehalls]

Something so important to me is Haymitch sobering up at the end of Katniss and Peeta’s game so he could be the advocate he never had at the end of his. He had Effie of course, and she fought tooth and nail for him but she could never understand what it’s like. He made sure those kids never had a reason to doubt their humanity. While he was put in a cage for the capitol to gawk at, and stuck wondering if he should be chained like a wild animal he made sure Katniss and Peeta wouldn’t feel that way. The Capitol went from treating the tributes like wild animals to treating them like pets. Just because they weren’t being kept in cattle cars or cages anymore doesn’t make what they’re doing any better even though it might seem that way and Haymitch could recognize the damage that might still be done in the aftermath of the games. He prevented them from surgically altering Katniss to make her more easily digestible for the Capitol, and from what we know about the Capitol, they don’t need permission for anything, Haymitch had to be on his guard, keeping track of exactly what they were doing and how they were treating the kids under his protection in order to keep them safe. He was behind the scenes at every interview or public appearance, making sure that everything went well. He knows the Snow in a way they don’t, he knows how vulnerable surviving the game leaves you and he wasn’t willing to leave them unguarded.

[lunar-years]

SOTR SPOILERS!!!//

I've already seen some complaints about how the plot was bad and the rebellion attempt didn't make sense/was far-fetched, but honestly that was one of the things I liked best about it!

Yes, the rebellion plot was an EXTREME long shot. The end goal really wasn't clear, the plan itself was shoddy at best with about a million things that could go wrong. It's honestly amazing that Haymitch and Ampert managed to carry out any part of it "successfully." And even then, they're really just the pawns of the rebel adults around them (like Katniss and Peeta in that way, except that unlike Katniss and Peeta, Haymitch's problem is being told too much, rather than being kept in the dark.)

I think it's pretty evident that this was a last minute, thrown together rebellion attempt hastily contrived of by immensely desperate people (and almost certainly prompted by Beetee's son unexpectedly being reaped.) Beetee needed his son's death to mean something. His wife was pregnant. He was probably already foreseeing losing them, too. He needed to at least try this. He was desperate enough to try it even if it was ill-thought and highly likely to fail. Wiress (Beetee's most recent mentee) and Mags (who's basically mother teresa like oh my god maggggs <3) would of course be wiling to jump in with him. Plutarch is desperate to get something, anything, stirring in way of rebellion. And finally they pull in Ampert and Haymitch to carry the thing out, the two tributes who have already been marked as direct, personal targets of the Capitol and have seemingly no chance whatsoever of coming out of the arena alive. it's easy to see why they alone were chosen, no other kids involved. After all, Haymitch has been told from President Snow directly that he is going to be killed. He's as good as dead already. He has nothing to lose.

Trouble is, no one expects Haymitch to actually emerge as Victor, lest of all Haymitch himself, but also everyone around him. The others are all adults who know and accept what could happen to them if the plot goes south. They take on the risks willingly. They are banking entirely on Ampert and Haymitch being dead anyway. And isn't it better to go out fighting back against the true enemy? The only thing Snow can do is take it out on them in the arena, which he will be doing regardless. Unfortunately, they're forgetting just how much Snow likes to play with his food before eating it. It's pretty clear with the poisoned milk picnic basket that Snow was indeed intending to kill Haymitch right up until the very end. He was merely waiting for the right time, after the right amount of humiliation, after forcing Haymitch to watch all his closest allies die horrible, targeted deaths. Only this time Snow waits too late. And then he has no choice but to pull Haymitch out alive so that the Capitol can have their victor.

I think the fact that it all fails so colossally is the biggest point of the book. As Plutarch comments at the end, when it does happen, the timing needs to the right. There needs to be an army to rally behind the rebels. Haymitch was given none of that. He was moved around on a chess board by desperate players. The rebels had hardly anyone on the inside. They didn't have the country behind them, no soldiers. They didn't yet understand their enemy well enough. He is set up to fail on all sides, the rebel side included. And they pay for it greatly.

On the other hand Katniss, when she comes, is very significantly not some grand "chosen one." She's pretty inarguably far, far less rebellious than Haymitch is at the start (in part because they have very different motivations in their games). Breaking into the arena to attempt to shut it down, working to destroy the generator, killing gamemakers in the arena, all that is about 10x more explicitly rebellious than the berry trick. The difference is not that Katniss is smarter or stronger. Imperatively, the only difference of any great significance is that Katniss manages to ensure her acts get seen. The berry trick cannot be covered up or cut out. It's the grand finale. And that's what makes it far more of a threat than all of Haymitch's crazy, reckless schemes to tear down the arena.

(interestingly, I think Haymitch would have been way more successful if he'd had the opportunity to carry out his backup plan of bombing the cornucopia during the final confrontation of the Games. The part of the plan that he came up with entirely on his own. it has to be something the Capitol's propaganda can't wash away, something that would have been impossible for them to cut out.)

Which is ultimately to say, the book is effective because it acknowledges just how complicated rebellion is. It takes far more than a few extremely rebellious, reckless people to make it happen. It takes a whole community banding together and rising up for change. On a series level, I think it also fleshes out some of Haymitch's decisions in the original trilogy, because it's easy to see why Haymitch would be so hell bent on keeping Katniss and Peeta entirely in the dark for so long. After all, look at what happened to him when he was in on all of it too soon.

[maritteknewtheenemy]

Genuinely the most compelling part of Sunrise on the Reaping to me was the two pages we got describing Wiress' games. It's indescribably fascinating to me how Haymitch seems to find her initial serenity and intelligence off putting and vaguely creepy. Like, to the point where I think I would have preferred if SC had written her games instead of Haymitch's for this prequel. Haymitch thinks she's 'bizarre' and notes it was hard even for the districts to root for her because of the eerie manner in which she outsmarted the capitol. It would have been fascinating to see what day to say life is like in a district other than 12 for once, and to see a tribute who won without killing anyone (a complete antithesis to the way the games are supposed to be played). It would be interesting to see the retribution she would face from the capitol in the immediate aftermath. I think it's safe to say prior to the arena that it's unlikely that Wiress was a fan favourite, but I want to see her interview persona, what angle was decided as her best shot of getting sponsors, and the outfits her stylist chose. I want to see her noting the shiny stuff in training and later kicking herself for not realizing it was connected to the games. We'd get to see Beetee as an actual mentor, showcasing his true brilliance with a pupil who could meet him on his own level something missing from the original trilogy and SOTR both. Hell, she could even include a mention of Ampert, or even a cameo of him at the District 3 reaping. We could hear Beetee potentially lament his fear of Ampert being reaped to Wiress, or it could even just be an offhand thought in Wiress' mind, that the eldest child of District three's most recent (and disliked/problematic) victor would be twelve next year. Maybe one of the careers in her games could be the child/neice/grandkid of a former victor and she could think back to meeting Beetee's family before leaving on the train and wonder if that would happen to Ampert? It would be interesting to explore Beetee's fear and Wiress' perhaps preumptive pity from that angle. It might have hit harder even, for us to see a brief cameo of eleven year old Ampert and hear about Beetee's transgressions against the capitol, but have Ampert's fate left ambiguous/a sword hanging over Beetee's head.

Also- the Nest of Mirrors? Come on. Katniss makes a point in the original trilogy of saying the arena can look like anything, but a Wiress book would be the first games we'd read about where the arena doesn't look- at least on the surface- like some random lanscape, not to mention the horror of the entire concept. Blood reflected off any and all surfaces, being unable to get your bearings, nothing being where it appears to the point you could end up impaling yourself on a sword you thought you were dodging? It's an arena with the highest and most blatant element of psychological horror we've ever seen and it would have been really interesting to see how those games played out, especially through Wiress' narration. Not only is Wiress very intelligent and grounded, but she hid in plain sight. She was IN the games but she wasn't an active participant. The narration would be almost from the point of view of a spectator, like those in the districts or the capitol, except with a level of scrutiny no one but a competitor could have. The fact she didn't directly kill anyone would further highlight this- but so would the fact kids might be dying literal feet away from her that she couldn't save or defend herself from if it came down to it. We even know we'd get to see her judgement call, the decision she had to make about when to stand up so the final Two boy would see her, charge at her, and brain himself. We know she understood how to play with the mirrors and how the light beams work, so she must have intentionally placed herself in a way she knew he'd run right into one of them. But how did she know he wouldn't try a long range weapon to kill her from a safe distance? And why did she wait so long after she won before letting the hovercraft pick her up? What was she thinking? What was her post game interview like? What did Beetee say?

I can see how this her victory and reticence could appear so eerie from an outsiders perspective- district and capitol alike- especially when it seems so antithetical from the way most contenders in a typical games play and participate. Wiress didn't participate and that's why she won. It's wild. It's facinating. It should be explored. She didn't participate and she won anyway which should be impossible. But she did it.

Then there's the fact that one of the themes of SOTR was propaganda (and was, imho, the most poorly executed element of the novel, please don't @ me). I think Wiress' book could have the potential to address this in a more subtle but better executed way. Just thinking about mirrors and the arena and the symbolism that could come from it. Something about the same image (or narrative or word or-) seen from a thousand different angles by thousands of different people, how they warp and change and become distorted. Something about retroactively convincing the public that the girl who didn't participate was a strong contender the whole time. Something about spinning the Capitol's inability to find her into something humorous instead of an unintentional display of weakness and gross incompetence. Something about playing up Wiress' 'oddness' so as to make her undesirable and unpalatable to even district citizens so no one would ever rally behind her much less take her or her refusal to participate as a viable option let alone a strategy.

Yeah, to me, not writing Wiress' story instead of Haymitch's will always be a missed opportunity.

[war-in-time]

Omg I remember him saying that his family and girl were dead in the books but i completely forgot that he straight up says it was due to the force field. That’s another way I know Collins wasn’t planning this from the start like why at this point would haymitch not tell katniss about what actually happened. Why wouldn’t Plutarch or betee or anyone mention any of this? I just don’t understand how people can say this enriches this world of thg

This is exactly why I’m so bent against sotr. We know that Haymitch wouldn’t lie to Katniss, not in this scene. She’s too vulnerable in this moment, and so is Haymitch while they’re both listen to the abuse that Finnick was put through. If there ever was a separate or additional reason for Haymitch’s family and girlfriend being killed, he would have said so in this scene.

Haymitch had no reason to lie or withhold information from Katniss in this moment, which is why I hate the retcon in sotr’s epilogue passionately. Collins tries to retroactively say that Haymitch told Katniss everything after the war was over but it’s so shoe horned in because she can’t change the actual story that we already have for Haymitch. It’s like putting a bandaid over a dame that’s completely broken and saying don’t worry about it, it’s fine.

It’s not fine. It doesn’t add up. I don’t care if people like this book or not, I just wish they wouldn’t completely close their eyes to what we already knew about Haymitch and his story, and nod along to everything that Collins is trying to change about him.

And it doesn’t make sense that nobody that was part of the ‘rebellion’ in sotr wouldn’t mention anything even in passing to Katniss about how “we tried a few times before, once with Haymitch, it didn’t work.” Prequels do actually need to adhere to what happens after them which is why most of the time they don’t work.

I had one person say that killing Haymitch’s family for the forcefield was too extreme and to that; clearly it wasn’t because that’s exactly what we are told happened directly from Haymitch. They also asked why Katniss’ family wasn’t killed for the berries if Haymitch’s was killed for the forcefield, which… I feel like I shouldn’t need to explain? From what I can remember it’s made very clear in the books that the capital citizens adore Prim because Katniss volunteered for her. Killing Prim would cause an outrage. Sure Snow could have killed their mom, but considering that Katniss very clearly isn’t close to her I don’t think it would have sent any message at all.

It took years for people to start noticing the problems with the Harry Potter books, and almost none of it happened until after the fans turned on JKR. I wish we could just criticize a book 1) without getting attacked for it and 2) without the author needing to become public enemy number one before people realize authors make mistakes and those mistakes are not hills to die on defending.

[opentanie]

So I finally finished "Sunrise of the Reaping"...

...and first of all, from the bottom of my heart: fuck this book.

The original trilogy never was my favourite book series of all time, but I liked it well enough; moreover, as the trend of releasing dozens of nothingburgers bonus novels for various young adult series rose, I respected Suzanne Collins for not joining the hype train. She had a story to tell, she told it, and there's that. Finito. Hell, even when she annouced TBoSaS, I still had respect for her simply because this was the prequel no one asked for, so you could really tell that even if a message was simple (because these are books for middle schoolers, you know), SC had an idea and a vision how to execute it.

"Sunrise of the Reaping" is none of that. This book stands for nothing, which is a problem in the series outrunning other ya dystopias that came after it, because it stood for something. What really is the message here? "Don't trust the propaganda"? Well, you already wrote that Suzanne, three books about it in fact, and it was done much better. Not to mention that such message simply doesn't work in the current political climate. We all know that THG was always written mostly with American audience in mind, simply because SC is American, so wake up, buttercup, this isn't Obama's administration anymore! World leaders don't even need propaganda now, they outright say to you that they're going to break human laws and constitution simply because they can. I already pointed out, what would be much better message, especially as she already had all ingridents for it ready every since "Catching Fire", but nope. I wonder, how much of avoiding the theme of 'the opressor is fewer in numbers than the opressed' is intentional because, let's face it, the entire idea of capitalism is to drew our attention from that fact. This is why media outlets and justice system do what they can to turn the public on Luigi Mangione, and since SotR was written directly because Lionsgate wanted another THG movie, I doubt they would be happy with a story that doesn't blame everything on an abstract enemy, because that's what Capitol is: a fictional regime.

But SotR stands for nothing in more than one sense. While writing the post linked above, I was surprised to realize that SC never touched upon sexism. At first, we can assume that it's an issue long overdue in this fictional, futuristic society - but when she introduces homophobia (directly in SotR, no less), we're supposed to believe sexism isn't a thing?

This paragraph specifically bothers me, because it stands in the stark opposition to what we know about Cray (District 12's head peacekeeper, who paid girls from the Seam for sex). And you can't even blame it on Haymitch's perspective that it doesn't occur to him, whether any of these nameless girls were forced to sleep with Peacekeepers, because Haymitch knows it's a possibility:

Like there is evident sexism in Panem, it definitely exists, but somehow it's an issue SC avoids with all her might for five books straight. The forced prostitution of victors is an all-gender issue, everyone are supposed to fit into Capitol's aesthetic standards, but homophobia exists. Like I'm sorry, Suzanne, but you can't have homophobia without misogyny. They literally cannot exist without one another.

And to be clear, I understand, why a white author might feel out of place to touch upon colorism/racism in her books, but let's not pretend that entire District 12 isn't coded to deal with it, with Seam kids having darker skin and dark hair, while middle class citizens are pale and blonde. And let's not pretend, District 11 isn't operating on stereotypes: Rue and Lou Lou as a morality pet (I'm referring here to the tropes name) for the protagonist, innocent black girl who dies tragically (Louella falls into that too, given that she looks very similar to Lou Lou), and all male District 11 tributes we know are variations of a scary black man, quiet variation (also Jessup, but that falls onto the casting department since both TBoSaS and SotR suspiciously lack visual descriptions of characters...). Chaff and Seeder might be the only ones who aren't 100% stereotypical, but it's not worth much when they both die before they have anything to do, and then SC decides to not include them in SotR. The Covey is an entirely different topic because someone might defend them by stating that they might be as well based on Irish travellers, and honestly, I've already said twice what I think about them.

But okay. This is still just a young adult novel. Suzanne Collins might wrote herself into a corner with stating that she writes only when she has something to say, but still, it's crazy to gain all your political knowledge from a book targeted towards 14 yo kids. Is it at least good as a simple fun?

BIG FUCKING NO.

Honestly, as much as my issues with Suzanne Collins and not her fandom go, this is the major offence for me. I was never smitten by SC's prose and romance wasn't her strongest forte either, but she never failed to deliver characters written well enough for me to root for. Johanna comes to mind immediately, as she didn't have much screentime, but her story never felt underdeveloped - there wasn't much, but you could feel that we don't have more because we're in Katniss head, not because SC can't find her balance. SotR has none of that. Every interesting- wrong, just every character is underutilised to the point you can't even know whether they're interesting or no, with the exception of Lenore Dove, who is showed so deep into our throats, Suzanne Collins tickles our guts. And she can't even make anything interesting of her. I remember always finding Peeta the least interesting character of the trilogy because he rarely got enough of space to be someone more than the ray of light in Katniss' world, but compared to Lenore Dove he's surely Nabokov's level of character construction. For all the praises we hear from Haymitch, she comes out absolutely empty. Again, I proposed how this could be fixed but it's not your readers job to assign a character of your making entire personality. Most of all, she's depraved of flaws - AND DON'T HIT ME WITH 'WE SEE HER THROUGH THE EYES OF HER LOVING BOYFRIEND' because Haymitch don't have to see something as a flaw to tell us about it. Like 'oh, she's feisty, my girl. I love how she wrinkles her nose when she wants to call me an idiot for annoying Clerk Carmine again', or 'sometimes I wonder whether Lenore Dove thinks me stupid, with her always explaining things to me, but all my doubts disappear whenever she kisses me'. Anything. And honestly, this white washing is part of a retcon too, with Lucy Gray. Don't get me wrong, Lucy Gray is my favourite female character of THG series, but she was vegengful, and her feud with Billy Taupe clearly had an effect on Clerk Carmine, so I found it so... mean-spirited that she's burried with the rest of the Covey, but BT isn't? Like these kids had only themselves, and I don't think even Lucy Gray would oppose against burrying him with the rest, his tragic death outweighting his faults - if not for the sake of BT himself, then for CC. Again, I think that would be an interesting thing to dive into, if Lenore Dove was a narrator. And don't try to argue with me that she didn't take space from other characters, when she's the only one with a death scene, that is supposed to be dramatic and poetic instead of gruesome like others. It literally reads like a parody, when she has time to title-drop the book. I've seen less artifical death scenes written by middle schoolers.

And I know this book was written directly so they can make another movie; and I know most of the people who are reading it now, or gonna read it soon, are casual readers with little remembering of the details from og trilogy - but even these people are not respected by this book, which tells them all the time, how are they supposed to feel about scenes presented, and what they should think about them. The lack of respect for readers who were with those characters for over a decade is something other people in here wrote about it already. About how Burdock being Haymitch's bff makes Katniss' story worse (which it does). About how the entire retcon is done terribly (which it is). But what annoys me the most, is the lack of sincerity with the audience, trying to make them feel like a fools for not predicting plot twists that didn't exist even in SC's head until she started drafting this novel.

And to be clear: I'm not immune to fanservice entirely. I love Snowbaird directly because it's toxic, dark, tragic and obsessive, so seeing Snow still pressed about LG, or showing Haymitch a Snowbaird fancam was a delight for me. But the difference is, I know these scenes are badly written and ruin something I was fond of (Snow's overall creation). And it tires me greatly, how people are unable to recognize that their enjoyment doesn't equal general quality of the product. Sometimes something is good in your eyes just because you enjoyed your time with it. And that's enough. Nothing wrong with that; in fact, I started my tumblr rants on these books because I didn't want to spoil the fun of my friends, who really liked it.

I can't help but wonder, whether TBoSaS ultimate commercial failure in comparison to the og trilogy is the reason behind the monstrosity that is SotR. Because if there's an easy route to any plotline in SotR, SC takes it every time. First person narrator? Surely, there's a great psychological reason for that, not booktok's whining about prefering 1st person narration. Haymitch getting reduced to a golden retriver boyfriend with his only hobby being his perfect girlfriend? Nooo, surely, nothing to do with current booktok trends. Name-dropping everyone from the movies, who was alive during 2QQ, except for Hawthornes? It JUST SO HAPPENS, not because 95% of this fandom hates Gale.

And it's not like Suzanne Collins was forced to write it. I don't know the details of the deal between her and Lionsgate, but I'm sure she could say "sorry, I don't have any new ideas!" and no one would hire a sniper to follow her until she changes her mind. She just wanted that sweet, sweet money, which she doesn't need because the og trilogy set her up for the rest of her life.

So fuck her, really. And fuck this book.

[caesarflickermans]

My hatred towards this book is on principle. The entire point of Katniss and Peeta watching Haymitch’s tape in CF is to gain a better understanding of him. This book renders that scene redundant. I’m sure there could’ve been some things cut/edited that would’ve affected how Haymitch’s own people saw him without it effecting how Katniss and Peeta saw him. This book did not take that route at all. Never mind the fact that events in book are very much not “almost, but not quite” as bad as the berries, and Haymitch had no reason to not tell them about the “truth” of his Games in that moment, if the intent was that we were truly missing so many details.

Grrrrrr this could have been such a good first Quarter Quell story! Sometimes I think this book was made for the movieverse and the propaganda angle was added to try and gaslight book readers, and other times I think this was made to be a first Quarter Quell story that was forced to be changed to be the second Quell. The themes of propaganda and implicit submission fit the minimal lore we have about the first Quell so well already, the Games that are presented here feel way closer to the 10th Games than the 75th, and the story of a failed rebellion would’ve made so much more sense with a cast so much closer to the Dark Days.

-T&PLB (why can’t we send asks on side blogs wahhhhhhhh)

Both interviews Collins has done for Sunrise on the Reaping suggest that she does have a great care for the political thought she places into these stories, and I think they equally suggest intentionality that it had to be the 50th Hunger Games.

So I disagree that the propaganda element was an afterthought. It seems clear to me that this is how she approaches the books, and I think that passion can be seen through the pages.

I take issue with the execution of her passion. Just war theory was never directly mentioned in the original trilogy; we as readers had to figure this out for ourselves. For some reason, Suzanne Collins does not trust modern readers to grasp the message—or feels like her previous novels were not clear enough on the message—and thus has dumbed down the explanation to blatant statements. Some of these statements are fun to read; I can easily envision Plutarch to openly talk about implicit submission to someone like Virgilia, but it is quite strange he'd do so to Haymitch then. Maybe they would have had this conversation in Catching Fire, but not in Sunrise.

It is fairly clear from the interviews she has done on SOTR that the elements she came up with were not part of the Catching Fire story, but were elements she worked off of. And I think it is fair to be disappointed by the story we now received, regardless what other fans might say on the matter. Like, it's just a fictional story, we are inevitably just readers who can decide whether we like that story or not, and I find it ridiculous of some readers to disregard criticism based on arbitrary virtues that need to be met. It's completely fine for fans who have had their own story in mind to not like SOTR because it does not fit their vision. This is just a book. It's not that serious.

I'm saying all of this because I agree with you that the plot elements we had in Catching Fire turning into this completely warped story in Sunrise are strange to say the least. I did enjoy my read more than Ballad, but many plot points were contrived all despite the fact I've never given much thought to the arena itself. Haymitch received an abundance of plot armour and there is a legitimate question to be had on why the 74th were not manipulated in the same way as the 50th. By Sunrise's logic, Rue's funeral would never have aired and the berry scene would have been manipulated—but we canonically know they haven't.

I personally quite enjoyed the Orwellian manipulation of history because that is what the Ministry of Truth does, but the extent that we received was extreme to say the least. Personally, I imagined that Panem's past—starting at the Dark Days up to Panem's founding as well as everything before—were strongly adjusted for historical revisionism, but not the Games themselves in the moment they are being watched.

At this point, we not only can ask questions about the book's continuity (Re: Rue's funeral), but also between the film franchise and the books. While, yes, there is one main source, for over ten years we knew that the Capitol aired with seven seconds of delay. And you are now telling me that isn't true? This is nothing major, but I take issue with the fact that this new canon addition is troublesome to fit into the collective canon.

While I did enjoy returning to the world of Panem, and I will gather some larger review in another ask (kisses at @firstkil), I sincerely hope that the epilogue of Sunrise suggests an end to the world of Panem, because I would much rather see what she has in mind for a new world rather than picking apart a current one that risks throwing up major questions for the previous entries.

[workingonasongbird]

"Tigris. Deep in my brain, the name rings a bell. She was a fixture — a younger, less disturbing version of herself — in the earliest Hunger Games I can remember. A stylist, I think. I don’t remember for which district. Not 12."

So many people were theorising Tigris being Haymitch's stylist in SOTR, and while I entertained the idea myself for a while, I think we all missed who the more likely candidate is:

Finnick.

Tigris is on the side of the rebels. If she had involvement with Haymitch in any way during his Games, she would have been kicked out of the job before Katniss was even born. And I think Snow would have been careful not to let Tigris anywhere near District 12. While everyone else might've forgotten about Lucy Gray, Tigris definitely wouldn't have. Having someone close to 12 that might potentially keep her memory alive is a huge threat.

Going back to Katniss' description of Tigris in the text, Finnick's Games would be one of the earliest Games that Katniss remembers (she would have been 7), but the key thing is that Katniss does remember it.

Either Katniss doesn't know or doesn't care, but she never mentions who the stylist for her own district is before Cinna. We don't know who the victor is for the 73rd Hunger Games, the Games directly before Katniss' own. She doesn't put the pieces together about Annie and Finnick, despite likely re-watching the tape of Annie's Games in the lead up to the Quell. All these are very recent events that are much more relevant to her, yet she discards them and instead remembers a stylist (who is of no significance to her until this moment) from a Games a decade ago.

But Finnick's Games would have significance to her, even if they didn't hold any personal meaning at the time. He was the youngest victor ever and a huge celebrity. The TV would never stop showing him, and by extension, his stylist would likely get a lot of attention. And right before we're introduced to Tigris, Finnick has literally just died. He's at the forefront of Katniss' mind whether she recognises the connection between the two of them in the moment or not.

[frost-sama-senpai-san]

What sotr parallels did you notice?

(Sunrise on the Reaping Spoilers)

Ok, I'm just cracking open THG for a reread so this might change but off the top of my head:

- Both living in the Seam with a little sibling they adore, a single mother, and technically illegal ways to make money

- Both with an affinity for the woods (with Haymitch ALSO referring to the D12 woods as *his* woods). Not to mention, they were literally introduced to the woods by the **same person**

- Both Reaped as a result of protecting somebody they love

- Both with outlier scores in judging that lead to piqued interest from Capitol sponsors

- Both with help from unexpected places

- Both with a "stand in" for their younger sibling within the games (Rue vs Lou Lou)

- Haymitch imagining that his mentor is communicating with him through sponsorship gifts, leading to him literally communicating with Katniss through sponsorship gifts

- Both with a natural distrust of people that they must overcome to survive their games (Peeta and Maysilee directly contributed to their survival despite being shown the cold shoulder)

- Both willing to die to make a statement to the Capitol

**And here's where they diverge to act as foils:**

- the berries and the gumdrops!!!!!!! Katniss gets to Peeta in time — gets him to spit out the poison! Haymitch *isn't* the lucky one. He didn't notice before it was too late.

- Haymitch started with a heavy emphasis on loved ones. He had more loved ones aside from his direct family (Burdock/Blair, Lenore Dove, Hattie), but his arc would leave him completely alone.

Katniss, aside from her direct family, only had Gale. Yes, she has decent relationships with others, but, mostly, she is very independent and unable to fully trust others. As THG progresses, she swaps — she learns to trust the other rebels and those around her and finds comfort in her new family (Haymitch, Peeta, etc).

God I know there's more but it's been years since I read the og trilogy so I gotta find them again

Pls feel free to add anything else y'all noticed!

[shadowqueenjude]

You're allowed to dislike a book, but most of these reasons aren't it. The one I kinda see is the narrator because there are a lot of questions surrounding Plutarch right now. But I get why writing it from the pov of the person who's games were changed. Other than that, No, sotr wasn't in her head when she wrote the original trilogy, neither was tbosas. I do believe her that she always knew what Katniss and Peeta watched of Haymitch's games was edited because, duh, Katniss and Peeta's games were probably edited too. With twice the number of tributes, even Katniss said the reapings were overwhelming, it's not shocking that the capital showed other people when Haymitch was doing something they didn't like, or edited him out of a death to say he wasn't there. I didn't think we'd ever get Haymtich's games, but Suzanne says she writes when there's something she wants to say and wanting to write about propaganda and media being edited right now isn't that suprising. Lenore Dove's pov would add nothing and be pointless. You're just supposed to know she matters to Haymitch. It is weird how he seems to forget about his ma and brother after she dies, but for this series, I'm not shocked. I think the fact that he was more directly involved in her death adds to it more. Mayislee had her own revoult plans, but the fact that Haymitch happened to ask Beetee the right questions so they decided to try something during the games isn't a confusing concept. Katniss just fell into it too. Haymitch is still pretty smart in this book, just more reckless. I don't know why you expect the Covey to no longer be around, they were children and it's only been forty years. The kids are still alive. Katniss isn't Covey, but there had to be a reason she knew the songs, and so people were speculating that Maude Ivory was her grandmother, and instead, she was Lenore Dove's mom, and Lenore Dove taught Burdock the songs. Haymitch says her and Burdock are very distant cousins, like the Chance's. They are not really related, they just call each other that. Even if Katniss was Covey, she'd still be a random, ordinary girl. Her possibly being distantly related to a music group doesn't elevate her social status, there just needed to be a reason she knew the songs. Haymitch doesn't know who Lucy Gray is. He knows a girl from 12 won the tenth games, but that's it. Cesar even only mentions the tenth to talk about adding in betting and interviews. They couldn't pretend the games never happened, they just don't talk about them. By Katniss' time she says the mayor reads their winners every reaping and they have two, so yeah, 12 knows they had another winner. Gaul kept the master tape of the tenth games, and idk why you're shocked that the president, who she mentored, might have access to that. It is kinda weird that Snow would show it to Haymitch, but at this point, it doesn't shock me.

It’s actually so funny how wrong you are, really.

You can’t just introduce a character, a character that is very much alive btw, and then not tell us why they were so important to the MC’s life.

Of course the games were edited, but you can’t just explain away every inconsistency by saying it was deleted. And again: whyyy would the rebellion trust this random guy who is dangerous and unpredictable over someone like Maysilee??? The rebellion trusted Katniss after she pulled the berry stunt and even then, they kept her out of the loop until she escaped the arena. Also, Haymitch said his family was killed because of the axe stunt not the rebellion plot.

And no, Haymitch was a total idiot. How did it not occur to him that the food and water would be poisoned? I figured it out way before he did. Why was he not suspicious of some random ahhh gumdrops that Lenore Dove picked up in the forest a month after the gum drops Haymitch gave her??? Tf????

As for why I expected the Covey to be dead? Killed off by Snow, obviously. I don’t know why that is so difficult to understand. And again, it’s inconsistent with the plot bc if they were alive when Katniss was born she’d absolutely fucking know about the Covey, which she doesn’t. And yes, Haymitch literally does know about LG; he sees her face in the hunger games footage and he visits her fucking grave…did you even read the book???

But again, the Covey are a small music group that hasn’t been in 12 for very long, so they shouldn’t know their distant relatives. How difficult is that to understand???

Lucy Gray distinguished herself from the Districts, so no it wouldn’t be the same; how do you not understand that? It’s easy to explain why Katniss would know Covey songs; the Covey performed all throughout 12 and they became classics…

Yes because the cunning old president we know in the hunger games would totally pull out old hunger games footage just to troll a teen…ok man.

Just say you liked the book and wanted to come in my asks and defend it!

[twelvebooksstuff]

This is an interesting interpretation!! I have to admit I love the idea of Beetee as a Plutarch mirror!

I have to admit, I’ve not reread Mockingjay in years (since I first read it tbh) always took it to be more like Beetee was almost a mad scientist type, in that he was driven by a desire to make and create and innovate, but with little thought for the consequences of who would be directly affected. His passion for learning and doing is undeniable, and I had felt like he was driven by that enthusiasm to the point where it blinded him to some of the ways his creations could bring real damage and harm. Beetee also struck me as someone who’s love for science and trecnilogy partially came from struggling to make connections with other people due to the treatment the Capital gives victors (and SOTR really drove this home with Ampert) and that isolation probably helped shield him from really considering the full potential his creations had to destroy. It seemed very tragic, in the classic mad scientist way, where his passion for his work leads to human suffering.

I’m not saying this to absolve him of responsibility or anything, but it left a distinctly different impression to me than someone like Gale did. And I’ve been wanting to share that and this seemed like a good place to add on with this as well!

i’ve seen a lot of people suggesting that beetee built those bombs and rebelled against the capitol for revenge, for what happened to ampert, but i don’t think that’s the case. the fact that he voted against the symbolic hunger games, and the fact that he seems logical enough to know that revenge is useless and perpetuates the cycle of violence, make me think that he wouldn’t actually be interested in revenge. even in the way he talks about the plan to sabotage the arena in sotr - he seems like a rebel, not a vengeful father. in my opinion, he’s more like plutarch than gale. he isn’t blinded by his own emotions, but he is ruthlessly determined to end the games and free panem. i think he’s willing to do whatever it takes to bring success to the rebellion - not even his son’s death is enough to make him obedient. if that kind of torture can’t stop him, i don’t think violating ethical boundaries or even his own moral code would stop him. he was never driven by a desire to avenge ampert: he was driven by a desire to forge a world where no child would suffer like ampert did. and he would see that world no matter the cost. 

[lunar-years]

https://archiveofourown.org/works/64179481

I wrote something new! This one is kind of a random one for me tbh, but I have had this idea in my head every since I finished my reread of Mockingjay, and then Sunrise on the Reaping banged the idea around my skull some more and demanded I actually get to writing it! So here it is.

There are NO sotr spoilers in this but I do think reading it first helps add context to some of the implications :)

Summary:

“Everybody is in the Capitol without her. Katniss. That boy she herds around with her everywhere, the one who laps hungrily at her heels—Gale, Johanna thinks his name is. Plutarch’s camera crew. Finnick. They’re off killing Snow, or at least Katniss is, without her. All while she lies here on the slightly itchy, standard issue, white cotton hospital sheets of District Thirteen, doing nothing. Helping no one. Accomplishing zilch, except quite possibly finally succeeding in going barking mad."

When Coin sends a still-recovering Peeta directly to the Capitol to join the Star Squad, Johanna and Haymitch are both rightfully upset, albeit for slightly different reasons. They have a conversation about it back in Thirteen. (Johanna & Haymitch friendship/Mockingjay outtake.)

[maritteknewtheenemy]

Breaking my silence with a hot take but I found it very hard to care about Sid and Ma in SOTR and even harder to care about Lenore Dove. Sid and Ma were hard impossible to care about because Haymitch essentially forgot they existed once they weren't directly in front of him. Lenore Dove was hard to care about for the opposite reason, because she appeared too much in Haymitch's thoughts but I was never once convinced they loved each other. Hh sure, he was in love with her, or he thought he was, and she thought she loved him, but they were a high school couple that was incredibly hard to root for.

I didn't hate the book entirely you guys. It had some interesting characters and some interesting passages but you could remove Haymitch's family + Lenore and have his major loss just stem from losing his friends in the arena and it would not change the story like. at all.

[opentanie]

Hi! Hope you're having a nice morning/afternoon/evening! I'm super interested in your SotR project! I'm curious about how you mean to characterize district 12 through Lenore Dove's eyes! And also about how the love triangle angle is going to play here? Does she assume what she sees on screen is behind edited to look romantic but then slowly she's worn down because it's a lot and it can't all be fake? And how do you imagine the unreliability of Lenore Dove's and Maysilee's narrators to be shown, esp in regards to Haymitch? (Love the idea of us not being in his head and instead seeing him through the eyes and perception of others btw)

Hi!

First of all, thanks for the ask! It's very motivating to know someone is interested in my little project!!

Anyways, although it's still in early development (still fighting writing block etc), to answer your questions:

SotR!District12, despite Haymitch vomiting exposition on every page, felt very... hollow to me. Even with her alienation of choice, I imagine Lenore Dove having some social circle - not exactly including Abernathys, giving that I would keep Ma not supporting their LD's relationship with Haymitch, but Everdeens and some Seam kids she should know. I don't think we've ever seen D12 everyday life from POV of a typical nobody, not victor, nor Capitol Peacekeeper, so I want just some sort of slice of life, apart from the obvious - reactions to the 2QQ. That also includes The Covey, bc I already shared my thoughts about what Covey should be + I think there had to be actual consequences of Covey members being indirectly linked to Mayfair's death, and Snow's disdain for them. I know it might sound muddy right now, but my point is: I want to make D12 alive through Lenore Dove's eyes, even if she's not a big part of that life, and it's not exactly her choice as a noble savage Covey girl. I want these people, mostly Seam people (merchants will have more focus on them in Maysilee's POV) to feel real, not just PG poverty porn. There will be some personal dramas, mostly, but not only, including Covey, because I also want to put Lenore Dove in situations, and force her as a character to take part in something, instead of just standing on the outskirts and giving Mike Flanagancore monologues.

As for the love triangle, the crucial part here is that I want to retcon SC's retcon (lmao) of Haymitch's personality, and made him a little more jerkish, which would also change some things in Haydove's dynamic, so I think, when LD sees them on tv, edited specifically to go under her skin, she goes back and forth between believing it's pure propaganda, and convincing herself this doesn't mean anything, because people in extreme situations tend to seek for humane connections, right? Right? But yeah, as time goes by, even she becomes more aware that she lies to herself, and Haymitch's return is the final nail in the coffin because she slowly pieces together that, while what she saw on air was edited to fit into standard romantic frames, Haymitch and Maysilee did share something that goes beyond her, and she ultimately lost.

I think the best way to underline their unreliability, when it comes to Haymitch, is to make them both assume things about him, both basing it on their observations and knowledge about him, but contrast their beliefs with one another - like, if some situation that happened back in D12 is brought up, LD thinks that Haymitch shares her opinion, while Maysilee tries to guess it, and her final thoughts are different. They're gonna have a different view on Haymitch, because the point is that either of them gets different Haymitch in a sense - because his own character journey starts on the Reaping, directly in the moment him and LD get separated. And of course, in the end arrives Haymitch's POV in the epilogue, that confirms some things, but not all, leaving it up to the reader to decide who was right about him in certain situations.

(There's also one, veeeeery small moment of Haymitch's perspective dripping into Maysilee's POV, and it's very easy to guess when that happens.)

I hope it doesn't come across as a world salad, but this ask got me so stupidly excited that it was difficult to organize my thoughts!!! Thanks again, anon!!!

[workingonasongbird]

The only way I would accept a book on Finnick's Games is if Tigris was his stylist and it was told from her point of view.

The obvious themes in a book about Finnick would be the exploitation and sexualising of minors & celebrities in the entertainment industry, as well as propaganda (which was heavily discussed in SOTR, but it would be interesting to see it from a Career perspective).

But aside from Finnick's story being very difficult to tell without contributing to the problems it's trying to discuss...

(writing a book about it then leads to a movie, which then leads to people missing the message yet again, and then we get a repeat of the whole 'hot coriolanus' edit situation, only this would be much worse because Finnick's character is a child)

...the problems in question would be very difficult to properly convey and critique from the perspective of the 14 year old boy they were affecting. Partly because once Finnick is in the arena, we'd lose access to the outside world and how other people perceived him because he obviously doesn't know what's happening elsewhere. But also because it's unlikely Finnick understood how the Capitol viewed him until after he won and Snow started selling him.

Of course, he might have some idea. But based of Katniss' revelation when she watched Finnick's propo during Mockingjay, the idea that the victors were being sold in this way simply wouldn't occur to most people in the districts; especially a Career district like 4.

(yes there's the whole argument that 4 is potentially less of a Capitol suck-up than 1 & 2 based on all the rebel stuff, but that's for another day.)

It would be really easy for a young kid like Finnick to put the Capitol's behaviour towards him down to them being Capitol and him just not being used to them, or some other similar reason. So Finnick's lack of awareness or lack of understanding of the situation would make it very difficult to effectively highlight an issue because he might not recognise there was an issue in the first place.

Which begs the question of who would be best to tell Finnick's story. Obviously there's Mags, but while she's a hugely important person in Finnick's life, I don't think her character has ever been set up to discuss Finnick's themes with the audience. But I think that Tigris has.

We know from TBOSAS that she had to sell herself. We know from Mockingjay that she was a stylist around Finnick's Games. We know that she was likely forced to quit being a stylist by Snow (my personal headcanon is that this was because she was Finnick's stylist, and that she challenged Snow directly about forcing Finnick into prositution. There's no way she would ever stand for letting that happen to Finnick (or anyone) let alone any way that she would dress him up for it).

Not only would Tigris have an empathetic, informed, and outraged view on Finnick's treatment that would make it impossible for the audience to miss the points Suzanne was trying to put across in the book, Tigris being Finnick's stylist would give an appropriate and non-sexual reason to discuss Finnick's appearance in order to make the commentary on his exploitation. It would be really weird for a character that isn't on Finnick's prep team/styling team to be narrating a book about sexualising people in media because there's no way to do that without a lot of reference to appearances, clothes, presentation, and whatnot.

Also I just want more Tigris content.

(But also it makes more sense to find out what Tigris was doing between TBOSAS and the trilogy in more detail because she was mentioned in both. There was nothing about Finnick's character in the trilogy that felt like we were being set up for an origin story if that makes sense.)

[katnissmellarkkk]

and that, additionally, he doesn’t know where the graveyard is until after Lenore Dove dies (perhaps asked by CC and TA to help bring her body there);

This I highly doubt, that Burdock only knows where the Covey graveyard is because Lenore Dove died. It’s all speculation for all of us but there’s nothing to imply he didn’t know all his life/his own mother (Barb Azure) won’t be buried there and hasn’t taken him there herself. I tend to run with the simplest explanations with Suzanne. If she didn’t say explicitly Burdock only knows where the graves are because of Lenore Dove’s death, then it’s probably not how it’s meant to be interpreted.

Burdock and the Everdeens in general don’t seem to have as strong of a Covey connection;

And this is something we can’t actually make a call on, for Burdock in SOTR. Because it’s in Haymitch’s POV and Haymitch is far more focused on Lenore Dove than his lame ass little buddy, we don’t actually get any serious point of reference for how strong or how weak Burdock’s connection is to the Covey. At least not anything strong enough to make a serious claim on.

What we do get however is, Haymitch states clearly it’s Burdie’s mom who’s Covey (and we know or we’re supposed to know that Maude Ivory and Barb Azure are the only two women who could relate Burdock to the Covey, unless we’re going down a crazy side track), that Burdock is close with Lenore Dove (pretty sure he’s her best friend), that he knows the Covey songs, the mysterious Covey graveyard, that Tam Amber makes Burdock gifts that he treasures like gold.

Did she have some kind of falling out with the rest of them?

In my opinion? Unlikely. Lenore Dove and Burdock greet each other when they’re little as cuz. I’m sure many people could jump on that and say “well that doesn’t mean anything.” But actually to me it does. Because if you don’t know your cousin very well, you’re probably not going to greet them with that kind of familiarity. There’s nothing to imply that Haymitch is the reason they become close either. And to make this point stronger, Burdock and Lenore Dove tell the other not to tattle on them for being in the woods. If Barb Azure had a falling out with Tam Amber and Clerk Carmine why would there be a risk of Lenore Dove and Burdock being in the woods getting back to their parents? This is just a Haymitch blindness or whatever you want to call it. We always go on about Katniss not knowing things or not sharing what she doesn’t directly know anything about but I don’t see much of that talk in regards to Haymitch. And I know it’s because he’s more open with all his gossip and tea but the same first person blindness is there. Haymitch doesn’t know about the inner workings of their family because he’s not part of it. He doesn’t care about Burdock’s mom or her relationship with the Covey so he doesn’t give any detail on it. He just knows that Lenore Dove is Burdock’s cousin (again, the whole “distant cousins” thing that’s tripping everyone up: everyone in the Covey would be distant cousins because they’re all either children of cousins or just adopted into the family. Burdock is no more distant than anyone else in the Covey. In fact him and Lenore Dove would be distantly blood related whereas Tam Amber and Clerk Carmine wouldn’t be at all).

To also back up this point, about Haymitch’s point of view blindness, Burdock was clearly Lenore Dove’s best friend. At least, he was her closest friend that we heard about. Haymitch mentioned several instances of Lenore Dove singing a song for Burdock, Burdock trying to convince Lenore Dove to stay out of trouble, them all playing in a group when they were little, etc. But when she died, Haymitch didn’t tell us anything of Burdock’s grief. He never mentions how Burdock must have felt. He doesn’t say anything aside from the fact that Burdie tried to hang onto him after Lenore Dove died. Why is that? Because Haymitch, like Katniss, misses details about other people when he’s distracted by his own life/grief. I’m not faulting Haymitch for this or Suzanne. I’m just saying, there’s a lot that Haymitch doesn’t see or connect because it’s not about him.

Now in regards to Katniss’ lack of Covey connection, for that I got two reasonings. Number one, after Lenore Dove died Clerk Carmine (and maybe Tam Amber since we don’t know what happened to him in the end, just that he didn’t make it to 13 in Mockingjay) may have just shut down and disconnected himself from the others in the family, therefore never getting to know Katniss and Prim. Barb Azure is clearly dead by the time Katniss is born since she never mentions a Mamaw like Haymitch does. And Asterid, who as a merchant was raised to fear Peacekeepers and the Capitol, forbade certain Covey songs and probably other parts of their culture for her little girl’s protection. And after Lenore Dove, a wildly rebellious girl, mysteriously died from a bag of candy, I’m sure Clerk Carmine, Tam Amber, Barb Azure and Burdock all changed the way they expressed their culture. Lucy Gray died a mystery like her ballad, Billy Taupe was murdered for wildin out (even if no one but Lucy Gray knew Snow did it), but Lenore Dove died from eating gumdrops. We don’t know what the others knew about Haymitch’s rebellious acts in the arena but we know they’re not stupid. They knew something was up and Lenore Dove’s death was connected to him.

That’s my first reasoning. My second reasoning for why Katniss seemingly lacks the connection to the Covey culture? The original trilogy was written in 2008 and Suzanne hadn’t come up with the Covey yet. None of this existed when the og books were written. That’s the reason Katniss doesn’t have a double barrel name and it’s probably why Burdock doesn’t either (Suzanne made his name like his girls as opposed to like the Covey. She claimed years ago to know Katniss’ parents’ histories. She probably had Burdock’s name decided years before she invented the Covey). That’s the reason why Katniss claims her father found the lake while hunting even though he should have known about it through the Covey. That’s the reason certain things don’t always add up. Suzanne invented the Covey in 2020 and I don’t have any issues with that, this is not hate for her, but it’s the facts lol. And to be fair, there was always a continuity error in the og books in terms of that lake so Suzanne is consistent with keeping her mess ups directly to the lake in the woods. Because you can actually rationalize all the other retcons from SOTR to the trilogy aside from this one line about Katniss’ father finding the lake while hunting.

katniss says her father found the lake while hunting. after sotr, this is odd with his covey connection

I wish the tub would expand so I could go swimming, like I used to on hot summer Sundays in the woods with my father.... We would leave early in the morning and hike farther into the woods than usual to a small lake he'd found while hunting.

i can't think of a plausible reason he would lie to his daughter about how he came across the lake, so i doubt anyone from the covey took him there. he probably did find it on his own, as we know he has been in the woods since before ten years old.

It was the fall after I’d turned ten and the first time I’d ever snuck under the fence that surrounds our district.... My friend Burdock had finally worn me down, saying he did it all the time and there was nothing to it and there were still apples if you could climb.

so maybe the covey stopped visiting the lake, or maybe Burdock's covey connection really isn't as strong as his friendship with Lenore Dove implies.