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slimestudy · 3 years

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Japanese III: Dialects and Formality

*If you are more interested in looking up and finding actually helpful vocab and phrases, @valiantschool (I chose not to tag them as it could be a bit confusing) has amazing illustrated pieces, they're also on twitter under the name @valiantjapanese, they're easy to grasp and absolutely delightful to look at.

Just like any other language, there isn't just one way to speak Japanese, each region and each big city has its own dialect (ben). And often these dialects sound like nothing to the standardised version of the language itself, though I'd still recommend learning the standard Japanese first and only concentrating on a dialect later on as a means to broaden your ability to understand the spoken language.

Also if you do end up moving in Japan, it is highly likely that you end up subconsciously picking up the local dialect and lingo. The same thing tends to happen while you listen and watch dramas in a certain language (my friend who speaks Tokyo-ben is still confused over me somehow picking up Osaka-ben from listening to dramas. Then again my father's English is purely movie Texan thanks to Bruce Springsteen movies, so I'm not that surprised about it myself).

However, do not expect to hear speech identical to anime in Japan and please do not base your own way of speaking on it. I'd recommend searching for Japanese radio shows, podcasts and some VTubers to learn it or to watch live action dramas. This way, you may be able to pick up the pronunciation and more over the intonations of Japanese easier.

Another thing that is good to keep track of while learning is the level of formality and politeness especially when referring to other people:

*Image sources: MLC (mlcjapanese.co.jp), the first one appears to be a scan of a Japanese textbook.

As you can see from these three images, the usage of "You" (あなた) is still being encouraged to be not used if you know the person's name, instead the usage of one's name is brought up (ex スライムさん, Slime-san). While which "I" to use is up to the speaker themselves.

*Image source: BondLingo

There are of course more than these listed, though some of them such as Washi (わし/儂) are specific to a dialect (in this case Kansai) and are mostly used by a certain age group (儂 is used by elderly men), so if you are familiar with another word for "I" in Japanese, don't be surprised if you don't see it in you textbook.

My past teacher didn't really talk about this one so my notes of the matter aren't very detailed, this seems to have been more of a personal note to self as I notably had trouble with referring to myself as 私 due to me not liking sharper s and sh sounds in the past, nor that I'd have to slow down my speech. I'd get a lot of words from my past 先生 for stubbornly saying "僕はスライム、どうもっす" or "スライムです、どうも" instead of "私はスライム、よろしくお願いします". Teenage me was a prick.

Which is a great segway to talk about the formality/polite speech, keigo.

*Image source: RisuPress

There are three main branches of keigo, mainly, Sonkeigo (尊敬語) or the “Honorifics keigo”, Teineigo (丁寧語) the “Polite keigo”, and Kenjogo (謙譲語) or what we call the “Humble Keigo”.

*Image source: Bondlingo

丁寧語 is characterized by the usage of sentence ender "Desu", verb ending "-masu" and the usage of the prefixes like o and go- when it comes to neutral objects. This is also the version that is often spoken by TV presenters and is taught to non-native learners. This version of polite speech can be used to describe your own actions.

*Image source: BondLingo

尊敬語 is what you will use while speaking to your superiors or customers. This version of keigo often involves changing words and it's never used to refer to one's own actions. Usage of 尊敬語 implies that the speaker is acting in a professional capacity.

This is also what most foreigners think of when the mention of keigo is brought up as 尊敬語 is known for its lengthy polite expressions, verbs and nouns go through similar change.

*Image source: BondLingo

謙譲語 is used in settings where it is implied that one's actions take place in order to assist another person, similar to respectful language verb substitution into other forms can place along with verb form change via addition of prefix and the verb suru or itasu while nouns can go through changes. In this way of speech, formal suffixes are dropped within the group (ex. I am Kelpie, the president, and this is Slime, the CEO).

Creating a proper chart to track what is casual Japanese and what is which level of Keigo is highly recommended, it can get wilder from here, this isn't even the final form and to be quite frank, I myself haven't yet even scratched the surface, there's a lot of things I need to relearn before I can start writing notes that aren't weird and all over the place.

Don't be like this delinquent Slime and learn your keigo properly, it'll help you with the contextual stuff on the long run and you won't get thrown out of a high standard place over impoliteness.

If you are planning on visiting Japan, or moving there, the ability to distinguish between types of situations becomes even more important, you must listen to how things are being said and respond accordingly, yet respectably.

In foreign country:

When in another country, you aren't there to represent only yourself, but you're often there to represent all of your people. An old Finnish saying goes "In the land, do as the natives do or leave." this roughly means that you will need to step up and behave in a manner that is appropriate for the said country, follow its rules and regulations and not make a scene, if you aren't able to do a common courtesy, a polite thing, like that then you aren't ready to travel, you shouldn't be there.

Foreign countries often observe the tourists and draw their conclusions of how the people of a certain place are based on these tourists, it takes only couple of incidents for the locals to start looking at your entire nation with a side eye.

You are responsible for your own actions, but you are also responsible for how your country appears to the common people in a foreign country. Be smart, be considerate, don't do stupid things that'll get you in trouble, you aren't above the law.

SLIME OUT!

#slime study #slimestudy #learning japanese #studying japanese #japanese language #study notes #Japanese III #dialects #Keigo #Dialects and Keigo #studyblr #studying

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abla-soso · 3 years

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I'm sending you this ask because I saw this post and I think this might be a case of a cultural misunderstanding? The entire conversation was very disconnected; almost nobody understood what the other was attempting to say.

I think witchesofcolor did assume about mimiwrites2000 originally but they did correct themselves pretty quickly.

They warned mimiwrites2000 about the language they were using and then explained it to them. In the U.S. if someone saying says something incredibly offensive (part of the statement they made most certainly was) then it's considered good manners to correct them immediately (particularly foreigners) so that they don't accidentally offend others. However this might be offensive in wherever you're from.

I also don't particularly believe you're anti-black either.

But, your overall behavior was (by western standards) super aggressive and you've mistaken some things as well.

When referring to AAVE that is not a 'Westerners' issue. AAVE is a specific dialect native to only Black Americans. It's words have become quite popular on the internet but they're often used improperly (as you mentioned); however because Black Americans still use the words as they were meant to be this leads to confusion and irritation (particularly the latter for Black Americans). Both you and mimiwrites2000 use it quite a bit so be there might be more confusions in the future.

Throughout the post no one called mimiwrites2000 a racist or anti-black; they said the language used was. The action was anti-black; no one said anything about the person. There's a big difference.

It was said/implied that both witchesofcolor and visibilityofcolor attacked mimiwrites2000 which again isn't accurate. To attack is imply they were purposely malicious; which they weren't. In reality, they were relatively polite. That of course doesn't mean that mimiwrites2000 didn't feel hurt; but they weren't attacked.

Honestly, you sounded really dismissive? It almost seemed like you didn't care that something offensive was said? You appeared more offended that someone corrected mimiwrites2000 and you then that something harmful was said? Like, as long as you're suffering in Palestine damned be anything else; even if it's hurtful to other marginalized communities.

Also, you claimed that you were being tone policed but you really weren't. Tone policing is when someone refuses to help/support a movement because they didn't like your tone (or attitude/words/etc.). While your tone wasn't liked; all involved still support Palestine regardless.

Overall, everybody made accusations and assumptions.

I believe neither you nor mimiwrites2000 are native English speakers (or from a western country) and language is really tricky (especially English!) so certain things are maybe lost or aren't understood but it's lost on me how you are so confident you've said or done absolutely nothing wrong. Especially since most of that entire post is in regards to something most non-Americans (including those from western countries) would have a lot of trouble understanding.

Anon, I appreciate your compassionate effort to fix this mess, but I’m really over it, and I highly doubt we can see eye to eye on this.

It’s not just a language barrier, there is definitely a huge difference in culture clues/values.

What I found incredibly offensive in my culture (ignoring a grieving person’s cry for help and focusing on how their wording offends me) doesn’t seem to be a big deal to you. Where I'm from, if a person is in desperate need of help, you don’t get to make it about yourself instead. Even if that person deliberately insults you, you listen and help them first and then deal with the insult. And it’s more outrageously rude when that person who was asking for your help was obviously clueless and never meant to offend but you still prioritized your hurt feelings anyway.

You can’t imagine the level of shame and humiliation a person from an Arab culture feels when a person ignores their cry for help and tries to nitpick the words they used to ask for help, especially if they were subjugated to constant silencing and dismissive attitude before (and mimiwrites2000's private messages to me expressed how terrible she felt).

That’s why I was angry and aggressive.

And I’m not gonna apologize for it.

Because while I listened and honored those guy's wishes and vowed to never again use that word that they found offensive (because I was NOT dismissive of their complaint itself), they - on the other hand - never listened.

They demanded that a grieving victim who was crying for help be held accountable for an innocent mistake she made, but they completely absolved themselves of their own gross western-centric bias.

They choose to call me all kinds of nasty names over and over and bombarded me with really vile, hateful messages for days.

So sorry, but I don’t owe them shit.

But I will answer the rest of your points:

I had no idea what AAVE is, and neither did mimiwrites2000. Assuming we should have known anyway is a classic example of western-centric bias.

Even if mimiwrites2000 wasn’t directly accused of racism, the mere fact that her cries for help were ignored and she was forced to defend herself - because of an unintended offense that was caused by nothing but innocent cluelessness - was outrageous enough to me as an Arab. That post was about uplifting Palestinian voices - who were actively silenced right now - and allowing them to express their outrage and grief freely, regardless of how westerners feel about it. It was NOT the time or place to nitpick and police Palestinians voices. If someone was offended by a Palestinian’s choice of words; they should have approached them privately and respectfully, but not in my fucking post.

Mimiwrites2000 felt hurt because she felt ignored AND attacked. You don’t get to decide that for her. I already explained why an Arab victim would feel greatly humiliated in this situation, so I won’t repeat myself.

Excuse me, but I’m too busy caring about my people being killed and colonized. I don’t have enough emotional energy to ignore my own deep pain and grief and focus on catering to other’s hurt feelings (which were caused by an unintended mistake and nothing else). We’re already deeply suffering and utterly emotionally exhausted, so have some freaking empathy and don’t demand that we should prioritize your feelings. And the most fucked up thig is: even AFTER I swallowed my own deep grief and pain and catered to their feelings; I was still called a racist bigot who didn’t really care about my own people’s suffering!!! I truly can not fathom this disgusting level of entitlement and lack of empathy.

Tone policing has many examples and it’s not limited to the one you mentioned. Also; claiming to “support” Palestine doesn’t mean shit when you nitpick and derail posts made by Palestinians and prioritize your own feelings over theirs. Don’t police, derail, or silence Palestinian voices. If you find something offensive; you can speak up, but keep the discussion in the DMs.

#Anonymous

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