#no wen kexing unfortunately
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i’m going insane in the membrane watching the seven commandments of kung fu (1979). i cannot emphasize enough the extent to which this movie is zhou zishu and zhang chengling if they were made in the golden age of hong kong cinema
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《山河令》 WORD OF HONOR (2021) | Episode 09 i adore this scene so ofc i also had to make a sillified version of it
#unfortunately i cant animate the text in the way i would like#this must suffice!!#my gif#wenzhou#gifset#wen kexing#zhou zishu#word of honor#shan he ling#word of honor episode 9#山河令#asiandramaedit#asiandramasource#asiandramanet#dailyasiandramas#cdramasource#cdramaedit#cdramagifs#cdramanet#wohdaily#wordofhonoredit#priestnet
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@asiandramanet creator bingo - quotes
here is the woman working a knife among onions and innards, her sleeves turned back, besmeared. she's looking at us aslant: she knows what bodies eat.
—"a genre painting," margaret atwood
#asiandramanet#word of honor#wohdaily#wen kexing#cdramasource#someday i will get this book out of the library and write the whole poem down#nearly impossible to find online#but unfortunately yes i did immediately think of wkx when i read it#my gifs#cw blood
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The Knowing: Being Queer in BL
I’ve been talking about The Knowing a lot lately with @lurkingshan @waitmyturtles @ginnymoonbeam and @shortpplfedup and so I felt it was time to gather all those thoughts into one place.
I define The Knowing as “growing up and suffering with the knowledge that you are queer (specifically that you are not like other kids) and understanding that you must keep that knowledge to yourself.”
Part of what initially drew me to BL was how often many of these shows took place in what @absolutebl calls “The Bubble” where cultural and structural homophobia is less prevalent or nonexistent. Many of these stories are about guys learning something about themselves for the first time when it comes to being attracted to other men. However, I always find myself drawn to the characters that clearly Knew who they were a long time ago. What’s interesting about these characters is that many of them carry an intense sadness and loneliness that plagues them and their relationships.
I am in my mid-30s. I’ve had to unlearn a lot of language over the decades. When I first realized I was different from other kids I was eight years old. I was a lot like Chiron in Moonlight (2016) asking the question, “What’s a faggot?” I wish I’d had someone like Juan around to say, “A faggot is a word used to make gay people feel bad.” To which Chiron asked, “Am I a faggot?” and Juan quickly corrected. “Nah. You can be gay, but you ain’t gotta let nobody call you no faggot.” I know it’s hard for some of you to read slurs written out so plainly, but I grew up with them being part of the day-to-day language used by kids around me. If you instinctively recoiled at me typing the word four times, imagine experiencing that constantly for your entire adolescence while also fearing the consequences of being discovered by your peers. That’s what I survived. That’s what some of these boys survived.
Before I learned other words, I thought I was weird or broken. I knew I was drawn to boys before I even hit puberty, but I didn’t have language for existing on the ace-spectrum until I joined Tumblr in the early 2010s. Before that I just thought there was something wrong with me. When we see a character in BL who has clearly been gay for a long time, I find myself examining the environment around them to see if they suffered The Knowing.
The worst part of The Knowing is for the boys who can pass as straight if they try hard enough. I always talk about how I think femmes are stronger than those of us (like me) who can pass. They face the public scrutiny of being queer and the danger of that constantly. People like me often go unnoticed unless we’re amongst our peers or explicitly tell people who we are.
I’m writing this post as a love letter to the boys who suffered the Knowing. Sometimes these characters get a bad reputation in fandom for being boring or sad sacks, but they are the characters I love the most. I’d like to talk about some of my favorite boys who Knew. Unsurprisingly, the exact kind of melancholy Japan is willing to play with means they have strong presence on this list.
Korn (Until We Meet Again)
Korn is the character who began my discussion about this in a conversation with @wen-kexing-apologist about Kao’s acting. I pointed out that the saddest thing about Korn in Until We Meet Again is that he knew what he was going to do the entire time. The tragedy of UWMA is that Korn loved Intouch and let him in, and unfortunately learned that Intouch’s love couldn’t fix the horrors that plagued him. You can see it in Kao’s eyes for the entire show whenever we see the In and Korn flashbacks. He suffers under the weight of masculine expectation and crumbles.
The Entire Cast of What Did You Eat Yesterday?
WDYEY is all about characters who Knew. Kenji and Wataru may have been unable to pass and have chosen to accept who they are, but we know Wataru suffered for it because of his feelings about family. Shiro hid who he was for a very long time, and still hides it from most people. His trauma from The Knowing regularly threatens his relationship with Kenji. Kohinata also clearly knew who he was the entire time, and works diligently for the life he’s built for himself. So much of this show is about being gay in a world that does not value us.
Book, Christina, and Yok (Make It Right)
Book is actively victimized because of The Knowing. He left his previous school and doesn’t live with his family because he was outed by a past boyfriend, and is disowned after revenge porn of him is posted.
Both Chrstina and Yok are femme and cannot pass. Unlike many of the boys in this show figuring out who they are, they are trying to survive without losing themselves.
Li Ming (Moonlight Chicken)
Li Ming has a gay uncle and still suffers The Knowing. He is hiding his attraction from everyone until he develops feelings for Heart.
Itou Akira (Life: Love on the Line)
We experienced the entire arc of this man’s life and how much The Knowing crushed him. This is probably the most The Knowing character on the list.
Oumi Mitsuru (Eternal Yesterday)
Oumi has such a frank expression of The Knowing and how much it hurts that he likes Koichi but feels like he can’t express it.
Takahashi Satoru (Koisenu Futari)
The man literally blogs about The Knowing, and it’s how Sakuko began to understand herself. He has a questionnaire prepared to help you figure out how long you’ve Known.
Ren (Tokyo in April Is…)
I wrote multiple posts about Ren and his experience with The Knowing. So much of what goes wrong for them is because Ren couldn’t believe that Kazuma could like him, too, and he knowingly faced the consequences of being discovered to save Kazuma’s life.
Pete (Love by Chance)
Pete knows who he is and can’t change it. Trump uses this against him. Pete doesn’t want Ae to be gay like him and suffer with the realities of being a Known Gay. Pete has one of the first coming out scenes in BL that I really enjoyed.
Cairo (Gameboys)
Cairo was clearly struggling with Knowing, and his close friend took his coming out from him. Cairo is a brat, but goddamn do I appreciate some of his angst.
See-eiw (My Only 12%)
He watched The Love of Siam (2007) and had a complete emotional breakdown as he was finally able to name his feelings for Cake. Top-tier expression of The Knowing.
Shin (3 Will Be Free)
I mean, we don’t have to look much further than his entire sad existence and being pushed into sex with a prostitute in the first episode. Also there’s, “It wasn’t that you didn’t like boys. You just didn’t like me.” Shin is the only boy in BL-adjacent media to suffer a specific version of The Knowing: being rejected and discarded by your own people in a homophobic way so they could stay closeted.
Phupha (A Tale of Thousand Stars)
Phupha’s entire romantic angst is built around The Knowing and what others seeing him for who he is will do for him.
Pran (Bad Buddy)
Though Bad Buddy exists in The Bubble, Pran has one of the most painful versions of The Knowing I’ve ever experienced because his is wrapped up in family angst and an unrequited crush.
Lee Wan (Our Dating Sim)
Lee Wan suffered The Knowing and broke things with his best friend after confessing. The Knowing destroyed his ability to see a version of his life where he and Shin Kitae overcame the upcoming challenges together and so he takes that choice from Kitae. Crushing.
Ueda Minoru (Our Dining Table)
Minoru is so familiar with The Knowing that he preemptively breaks up with Yutaka after kissing him.
Kiyoi (My Beautiful Man)
The reveal that Kiyoi already knew who he was and noticed Hira the entire time? Beautiful. One of the best reveals in J-BL history.
Minato (Minato’s Laundromat)
This man is one of the sadder examples of The Knowing because he’s in a place where he understands who he is now, but the internalized homophobia cripples almost all of his romantic and closer relationships.
Han Baram (Sing My Crush)
This boy is suffering so much from The Knowing that his love confession song is literally titled “Letter of Apology.”
Oh-aew (I Told Sunset About You)
He Knew. “Are you proud of me?”
Noh Shinwoo and Shin Daon (Light On Me)
Noh Shinwoo clearly suffered The Knowing and was discovered. His bullies still plague him on the streets when they see him. Shin Daon was not surprised by his attraction to Woo Taekyung; he struggled with his parents expectations.
Nagisa (His: I Didn’t Mean to Fall in Love)
Nagisa definitely Knew who he was and was probably going to stay quiet about it until Shun showed up in his life. What upsets me so much about Nagisa is that he is the one who leaves Shun later in the movie after pulling queerness out of Shun.
The Secret Crush on You Quartet
All four of them get a spot on this list for The Knowing. Toh, Kaojao, and Daisy clearly suffered The Knowing, and Som has clearly taken care of them for a long time.
Rocky and Judah (Quaranthings)
I love that these two explore The Knowing from a class perspective. Judah is wealthier and eventually comes out, but Rocky is poor and struggles with it a lot longer.
Han Tae Joo and Kang Gook (Where Your Eyes Linger)
The Knowing, bodyguard edition. The yearning between the two of these is palpable. It hurts that they can’t even talk to each other about it.
Mafuyu (Given)
He Knew and lost his boyfriend to The Knowing.
Kim Dong Hee (Unintentional Love Story)
He won’t acknowledge Go Ho Tae’s feelings because he feels a sense of loyalty to Ho Tae’s mom for taking care of him after his parents disowned him over the gay thing. Huge case of The Knowing.
Edit: New Additions October 7, 2023.
Nekoyashiki Mamoru (Kabe-Koji Nekoyashiki-kun Desires to be Recognized)
He describes a textbook case of the Knowing and finding community at the convention.
Zo (Hidden Agenda)
He definitely Knew, and got messed over by his friends badly for it.
Yuuki (Me, My Husband, and My Husband's Boyfriend)
We almost lost Yuuki to the Knowing.
All of the Eclipse Gays
Literally all of them. The entire show is about how fascism turns queer people into agents working against their own community.
Joe (The Warp Effect)
He clearly Knew before his encounter with Army, and he also suffered for being outed.
#Ben writes#The Knowing#too many shows to tag#what did you eat yesterday?#until we meet again#bl series#thai bl#japanese bl#korean bl#filipino bl
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Welcome to another round of W2 Tells You What You Should See, where W2 (me) tries to sell you (you) on something you should be watching. Today's choice: 山河令/Word of Honor.
Word of Honor is a 2021 adaptation of a novel by priest that tells the story of two beautiful murderers, their three kids, and their collective attempts to ignore the fetchquest madness that has taken over the rest of the jianghu.
Look, you know what Word of Honor is. Doing a rec for this is like doing my rec for Nirvana in Fire -- I am not introducing you to a new concept. Even if you haven't watched it, you've probably osmosed enough through the rest of Tumblr to have an opinion on it. At this point, if you haven't seen Word of Honor, I'm assuming it's for one of two reasons: either you haven't gotten around to it yet, or you haven't been sufficiently moved by what you've seen fandom do with it.
So I'm going to give you five reasons to watch the show, and they're probably not going to be the reasons you've seen already. Not to say that the other reasons are bad, but you've heard them already, right? What I've got for you are five somewhat more unexpected reasons that may just convince the fence-sitters that this nut-flavored morass of toxic relationships is worth your time.
1. No matter how gay you think it is, it's gayer
Okay, sure, you've probably been given the impression that this show is real gay. But I don't know if you know how gay it is. This show is so gay that we still haven't seen many of the other BL-flavored shows filmed around the same time period or since, because Chinese censorship gay-panicked and locked them all away before they could air, because Word of Honor was just too gay.
Zhou Zishu and Wen Kexing (L-R above) are in love. The story does not make sense if they're not. There is no story if they're not. Everything else in the show is set dressing to this incredible adventure story of two horrible people who fall for one another.
Oh yeah, did I mention that they're both bad guys? One's a fascist toddler-murderer and the other's a cannibal mob boss. These two deserve one another, in every possible sense of that phrase. In any other property, they'd be the villains -- and even here, they're still kind of the villains! It's just that the heroes are worse.
What's more, their two actors absolutely understood the assignment. They got the memo. They read the book. No one ever had to sit them down midway through shooting and explain their dynamic. They had it from the table read. When given creative freedom, they chose to double down and make the gay shit even gayer.
But the actors weren't the only ones who knew what they were doing! Everybody working on the production was pretty much in full-on Let's Make A BL mode. There are no gay accidents here. It's so gay that it's actually gayer than the version that aired. If you can do a little lip-reading (though beware of spoilers in those links), you can get at the original filmed version, which had a number of lines that were too homo and/or sexual for Chinese television.
No, they don't kiss. They don't have to. This is the TV version of the tweet about, what's gayer, gay sex or whatever these two have going on? The answer is, whatever these two have going on.
It's so gay that they're not the only gays. No, I'm not going to tell you who the other gays are, in part because spoilers. But trust me, they're there. Lesbians too! And a bisexual elderly polycule! And one pair of hets that we love love love, and most other heterosexuals are creepy and gross. And if that's not an accurate representation of how the world looks to queer people, I don't know what to tell you.
2. Go nuts!
You are not prepared for the product placement.
Word of Honor started off having a budget, so they went ahead and started spending that budget in the way you do when you're making a TV show. Unfortunately, circumstances changed, and their budget became much less, which meant they couldn't keep making that TV show unless they got more dollars. But where to get a sponsor for a fairly low-profile wuxia BL property?
Enter our hero: Wolong Nuts.
I have seen actors do bumper ads in costume for products from their various sponsors, and I have seen actors do bumper ads in character for the same. But the feeling of seeing a modern product diegetically hawked mid-scene by ancient fantasy characters is like none other.
Something like 40% of Word of Honor's total budget came from this nut sponsorship. And here the thing: It worked! It sold nuts! Hell, I’d buy them if they were sold anywhere near me; I like nuts in general, and nuts that support the queers in particular.
I'm including this as a selling point because, come on, it's funny as hell. But it's also a good place to warn you that Word of Honor has what we're politely going to call a spotty use of its funds. Some things, like everyone's outfits and the score, are lavish and beautiful. Other things, like some of the sets and a lot of the CG, are janky and sad. Crowd scenes are thirty humans and a bunch of Blender assets. I've never seen so many fake plastic trees together in one place before. There's a lot of visible hairnets. Like, a lot.
The show was originally planned as being 45 episodes long. It wound up being 36 + a tiny epilogue. That's a huge cut! I’ll say to its credit that you mostly can’t feel the seams; the production team did a heroic job killing their darlings (in many senses) while keeping the narrative coherent. If you know about the original vision, though, you can identify pretty quickly where the excised material should have been. Don’t be surprised when the last two episodes in particular smack you like a hit-and-run.
They blew a truly unwise amount of the budget on costumes in general, and Wen Kexing's costumes in particular, and thank goodness. (@canary3d-obsessed has done a noble job of cataloging everyone's wardrobes, and some of the details are just stunning.) See that red outfit he's wearing there, with the elaborate, delicate embroidery? That apparently took two people literal months to hand-sew. It's a terrible use of limited funds, and I am living for it. Even when Wen Kexing looks awful, he looks stunning -- especially when you put him side by side with Zhou Zishu, who is wearing the jianghu equivalent of slutty yoga pants and a thrift-store dollar-bin t-shirt that says IT'S WINE O'CLOCK SOMEWHERE.
So if, while you’re watching, you’re ever disappointed by the quality of the production in front of you, just console yourself by thinking: That’s nut money, baby.
3. The ghosts (and everyone else) doing the mosts
This is a show that somehow managed to accumulate a tremendous supporting cast of actual grown-ass adults, then had the wisdom to make them play a wide variety of balls-to-the-wall bonkers roles.
You can't throw a rock in a crowd scene without hitting a dozen actors with resumes as long as their arms, who have been acting since before you were born. Apparently they poached a couple veteran film and stage actors from other contemporaneous productions and had them come over to film bit parts on their days off. If you see a character played by an older actor who's getting more lines and face time than you think their character strictly deserves relative to their importance to the plot, and you're like, hm, I wonder if this older actor has a career that includes roles in several dozen other shows and/or stage productions, the answer is yes.
I've seen the tone of the show described as melodramatic, but I don't think that's quite it -- it's more operatic. People speak to the middle distance and play to the back row. Several actors have the body language and line delivery that makes it seem like they're always about three words away from breaking into song. Several of my favorites are downright camp. It's magnificent.
Statistically, everyone in this show is a bad guy. There are the respectable people who don't mean to be bad guys, but wind up being bad guys anyway because they support bullshit systems. There are the morally grey folk who are willing to become bad guys because they think they'll be the good guys when all is said and done. And there are the bad guys who know they're bad guys and are going to chew every piece of scenery in the vicinity about it, so watch out.
My favorite collection of scene-stealing weirdos is probably the clutch of freaks that make up the ghosts of Ghost Valley. They're not actual ghosts -- this is not a supernatural show. They are instead living people who call themselves ghosts because they've found themselves on the margins of society for one reason or another, and have created their own little society! With hookers! And blackjack! And also a little murder, as a treat!
These ghosts are so extra that they actually have a Top Ten List, where all the ones that have code names and specific costumes hang out. How do you get on the Top Ten List? By killing one or more of the people already on it, of course! I told you these guys are villains! They're not even the only villains! They're not even the only villain organization! It's wall-to-wall bad guys around here! And oh my goodness, the actors are clearly having a ball with it.
When the screenwriter came to adapt Faraway Wanderers (the novel) into Word of Honor, she realized that there weren't a whole lot of ladies in the book -- so she invented/adapted some for the show and made most of them sinister! (In fact, if you watch Legend of Fei -- and you should watch Legend of Fei -- you can see a lot of the inspiration for said ladies.) Some of the female characters in the show were men in the book, while others weren't even in the book at all. They all feel organic, though, and not like someone was trying to get Strong Female Character Points. It's the good representation you get when there's a lot of representation, so nobody has to be The Girl, and all the girls can just be people.
...Alas that another casualty of the budget cuts is that several of the lady characters did not get to live up to their full ass-kicking potential. But that potential is still there! The badassery may be implicit instead of explicit, but you don't doubt that many of these women would eat your heart at the slightest provocation, and you would thank them while they were doing it.
This show is perfect food if you're the kind of viewer liable to get sucked up into the worlds of villains, NPCs, bit parts, optional side characters, and other narratives going on outside the main storyline. Because there's a lot going on outside the main storyline. I mean, that's kind of the running joke of the whole novel, that there's this whole complicated political plot happening, and yet our dudes are over here studiously trying to not know what the hell is going on. Obviously that's harder to preserve in a show, but it's still a key feature of the narrative. Most of the Big Power Play What-Not is always happening a few towns over from where the main party is at any given moment. I know people who've watched the drama several times and still can't explain whatever's happening with all that. That's fine. You roll with it for the sake of everything else.
So! Do you like gazing upon delightful character actors and having imagination adventures about the unexplored workings of a bunch of tantalizingly mysterious and often very sexy weirdos? Great! This will keep you busy for a good long while.
4. The juciest pining in the jianghu
I said I wasn't going to tell you about all the gay shit going on here, and I'm not. What I do want to cover, however, is how much gay shit isn't going on here -- and by that I mean just how much of the show's gay longing is unrequited. If you like it when the boy yearns for the other boy, friend, you will feast well tonight.
You have likely already, through fandom, been alerted to the existence of the biggest gremlin in the land and an understandable number of people's favorite character, immortal grandpa Ye Baiyi. What may not have been conveyed, however, is just how tragically gay this bitch is. The ultra-condensed, scrubbed-for-spoilers version of his backstory is that he was in love with a guy who got injured because of him, so he decided to stay and live on a mountain with that guy and the guy's wife and coparent their son with them, all the while never once telling the guy how he felt.
This is not me with slash goggles on. This is canon. Well, okay, the "in love with" part is only confirmed in the book, but Huang Youming, Ye Baiyi's equally gremlin-like actor, has also clearly done the reading and understands how to break your heart with it. Ugh, it's so good.
Shidifuckers, rejoice! Zhou Zishu has Han Ying, his devoted little dumpling who would -- and does -- do anything for him. Back in Zhou Zishu's regrettable (but very fashionable) fascist days, he had a bunch of little underlings; one of them was Han Ying, who still works for the same evil empire. Problem is, Han Ying isn't evil. He was never loyal to his job; he was always just loyal to Zhou Zishu. It's cute the way Wen Kexing hisses like a cat upon meeting Han Ying and immediately identifying him as a rival for Zhou Zishu's affections. If you like OTPs that occasionally roll in a service-top third, please consider that adorable muffin boy up there.
And speaking of quitting your job, have you ever had the problem where you had to orchestrate your own death to get away from your toxic boss who won't stop sexually harassing you, and that motherfucker still expects you to show up for your shift next weekend? Meet Prince Jin, who has refused to accept Zhou Zishu's resignation letter with extreme prejudice.
Zhou Zishu isn't even the only ex he's mad he drove off! But that's just a namedrop in the show; see my bonus selling point for instructions on how to get into that whole gay-ass story. [insert obligatory "Prince Jin is not Helian Yi" disclaimer here]
...Nope, uh-uh, we're not going to get into what's going on with Scorpy. Suffice it to say, this is one of those cases where the show can't outright call a thing gay (though uhhhh it sure can imply a lot of it!), but it can set up an unspoken Gay Bad Idea as a direct, textual parallel with a canon Straight Bad Idea and be like, see? see? Anyway, daddy's boy there has deliciously terrible taste. This is the one that'll have you screaming crying throwing up etc.
And then there's this handsome jackass, who isn't doing the pining, but is the unfortunately heterosexual object of the often confused and misdirected longings of his friends. About the first thing you know about Rong Xuan is that he died before the series begins, so you only see him in a few flashbacks. The precious few times you do, though, you're treated to scenes of him holding court among his besties (many of whom are the spectacularly cast younger versions of major older male characters) while they all wrestle with varying degrees of homo longing for his cocky dreamboat self. You ever wanted to fuck a straight guy so bad you got both him and his wife killed about it? Because somebody in this drama sure has!
I sense you think I'm making this all up, that I'm just a fujoshi looking at the world through rainbow-colored glasses and telling you about her favorite slash pairings. Friend, I am not. Okay, I am being a little cheeky about the last one, but I swear that everything else I have listed in this selling point is about as textual as the show could make it, if not outright straight (ha ha) from the books.
(I have a whole separate theory about how priest herself is a real-life queer, based on how basically everyone in her works is either queer-coded or a token straight who's on thin ice, but that's a subject for a completely different Tumblr post no one's ever going to read, so save us both the time and imagine I already wrote it.)
I cannot stress to you enough how much this show knew what it was doing with the queer stuff. I love how amazingly toxic so much of it is, too, because one of the big themes of the show is that secrets will destroy you and everyone you love. If you have gay longing in a society that forces you to hide that gay longing, yeah, you're going to be extra-vulnerable to making some shitty decisions because of it! You're either going to suffocate yourself by keeping silent, or you're going to open yourself to intimate partner abuse you can't reveal to anyone else, or you're going to do some murders about it! Or some combination of the three! Either way, it's not good!
Also, tell your partner about your chronic health conditions, whether they be Can't Remember My Past, Would Eat A Guy If I Had The Opportunity, Stuck Some Nails In My Chest And Am Now Dying And Also Can't Get A Boner, or Whoops Took The Nails Out Of My Chest And Still Can't Get A Boner. Oh, and tell your partner if you're about to run off and go confront your dangerous ex. And absolutely tell your partner if you're about to fake your own death. Just ... learn to have conversations with the people who love you, okay? Avoid huge amounts of narrative suffering with this one weird trick!
5. Putting his whole Zhang Zhehussy into it
See, Gong Jun (playing Wen Kexing) is not what I'd call a great actor. This is more of a case where you take a guy, you cast him as a character whose motivation can be summed up as "I want to fuck that man in half," and then you cast opposite him a man that the guy in question clearly actually wants to fuck in half. And you let the magic work.
Zhang Zhehan (playing Zhou Zishu), however, legitimately knocks it entirely out of the park. Whenever the camera's on him, it's hard to take your eyes off him. He holds his own in a sea of veteran actors. He can do comedy and tragedy with equal panache. It's lucky he's such a beautiful crier, because Zhou Zishu cries so much. I have never seen someone more perfectly portray the mood of "in love and absolutely furious about it."
As the story goes, when he auditioned, he actually wanted to play Wen Kexing -- but the director told him, look, while you'd be great at that, I can find another Wen Kexing, but I'm never going to find another Zhou Zishu.
Zhou Zishu is bad man who has done terrible things and resigned himself to suffering to atone for his crimes, and he is so mad to find himself at the end of his life suddenly having a reason to keep living. Zhang Zhehan does a pitch-perfect tsundere right up to the point where he breaks. I'm not going to call it an understated performance, because nothing in this show is understated, but it is often times subtle and always complex, and fuck does he have a good crazy grin.
One of the first things you find out about Zhou Zishu is that he's got just a couple years left to live, over which time all his senses are going to deteriorate. In fact, they've already started going. And as the show goes on, you can watch Zhang Zhehan play it so you can tell when he's missed something he should otherwise have picked up on, reacting to noises and touches a split-second late. It's a testament to what a thoughtful job Zhang Zhehan's doing, keeping track of how much of Zhou Zishu has already slipped away.
There are, if you've read the book, legitimate complaints to be made about the adaptation's interpretation of Zhou Zishu's character, and I get that. But you can't say that Zhang Zhehan isn't pulling off exactly what he means to here. I say this too as someone who loves the novel: I think it works. Given the constraints of Chinese television in particular and cinematic adaptations in general, the show made the right choices when it came to figuring out what were the more filmable, actable options, and Zhang Zhehan plays every one of those choices within an inch of his life.
Also did I mention he's like the most beautiful man to ever exist? Holy crap. You're going to be so mad about what they do to his face for the first several episodes.
Don't worry, it washes off eventually.
caveat: Kind of a bummer!
You may have been warned that this one's got a sad ending. Well ... yes and no. On the "no" side of things, there's a "secret" mini-episode 37 that rolls back one of the major points of tragedy. (It's also clearly the first version that got shot, and then they shuffled around and redubbed some material to make the aired end of episode 36.)
But oh man, not all of them. Plenty of characters we love do not make it to the end. Like ... kind of a shockingly large number. Some are dispatched offscreen, some have tragic onscreen deaths, some are probably dead given the circumstances we last see them in, and a couple aren't dead yet but are almost certainly going to be soon.
(It's also kind of a meta-bummer! I mean, I don't recommend falling down the rabbit hole of what happened with Zhang Zhehan's career after the show aired, but tl;dr, it's not great.)
So yeah, it's not an outright pain simulator, and if you've got the mettle for Nirvana in Fire or Guardian, you should be okay here. But hoo boy, don't just blunder on in expecting a cheerful romp from start to finish, because ... yeah. I said it before: This is a story about a bunch of bad guys. Bad guys don't live long lives, nor do the good people who get tangled up in their shit. Just be prepared!
bonus selling point: black and white husbands
Okay, I will tell you who one of the other pairs of gays is. You'll see the two of them show up near the tail end of the show, and then you'll decide you want to know more about what their whole deal is, and then you'll read Qi Ye, which is a novel entirely about gay pining, and then it'll be all over for you.
Ready to wander this way?
There's a number of ways to watch this one! Viki, Netflix, YouTube, and Amazon Prime all have you covered -- but Viki's the only one that has the epilogue at the ready, so I'd go there if you can.
And I get it, if you're enough of an aging hipster that you don't want to play in the same sandbox everybody else is playing in. Believe me, I understand that impulse on a visceral level. After all, this is not a small fandom -- 7718 works on AO3 (at time of writing) isn't Untamed levels of content, but it's nothing to sneeze at. Maybe you want to leave this one for a little while longer, until the hubbub dies down a bit more and people's attention is redirected by a different gay and shiny thing. That's valid. I get it.
But if you do, I still encourage you to get around to it someday. For all its flaws -- and yeah, it's got flaws -- it's a good, solid story that makes you feel lots of feelings about some fascinating characters in some beautiful costumes, running around being real queer (and okay, occasionally straight) to beautiful music. This, to me, is television.
Fun fact! There is also a Japanese dub, if you feel like taking it at that speed, and the guy who voices Zhou Zishu is the voice of Kaworu from Evangelion, and the guy who voices Wen Kexing is the voice of Victor Nikiforov from Yuri on Ice. See what I mean???
I'm telling you, everybody ships it.
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interestingly i keep typing bisonfadel for your url x 10?
a small detail in ep2 1/4 fadel keeps his room locked
wow you come into my house and go straight for the beast's lair, huh?
let's talk about the locked room, nonnie. but before that i must talk about everything that's fucking bison up and then in my true adhd magic it will all somehow tie back to that godforsaken locked room.
[Screenshot from Bison's intro where he says "I also don't like...liars"
See, no one knows Bison better than Khaotung and when I watched his intro again, I thought the things he said felt significant; had more layers than perhaps I initially thought (yes im aware he also pulled that northern lights self insert not everything that comes out of that beautiful mouth can be gems).
And well, this thing about liars. It's obviously about Kant, very very obviously. But Bison gets lied to a lot. By everyone and he's in the dark a lot, and unfortunately unlike Styles he's neither curious nor very perceptive (you have to stick to the end to figure out why this is not a criticism). In fact, he can sometimes be a little shockingly obtuse.
[Screenshots of Bison saying "He (Fadel) doesn't believe in love" and "Too bad I have an actual beating heart, unlike the dead cold thing in your chest"
first of all, sir, you are asian you can't just go badmouth your brother to some random guy you fucked once. but also what a cruel thing to think about your brother - a brother who is abundant in acts of service and towards whom bison shows, frankly, very little fear. bianca and kat are in high school, you can't lift their personalities onto adults and have them mean the same things.
Bison is an adult, with arguably the exact same responsibilities as Fadel. He doesn't just work at the burger place.
He owns it too. They do the exact same job, they're under the same pressure. How obtuse does he have to be to conclude that Fadel, whom he trusts in absolutes and genuinely loves, doesn't have any needs????
a genuinely insane thing to say about Fadel. Style cracks that egg open in one day. Fadel is constantly giving into Bison, for literally everything except things that will make Khun Mae angry. there's no malice between the two brothers either. It's abundantly clear Bison adores Fadel, wants the best for him, trusts his judgement and most importantly wants his approval.
Yes, he's edging Kant, but he's also sincerely trying to get Fadel's approval. He really, really wants everything to happen above the board. He wants to do right by Kant and Fadel. They're both really important, that's why they both get to have stakes in his dating life.
Fadel loves Bison so much that I genuinely think that Bison is his heart. He was so fragile from the heartbreak of his first love (or maybe even just the hardships of this career path idk) that he poured it all into Bison (yes it is very Wen Kexing and Gu Xiang of them tyvm). How could Bison think that Fadel doesn't believe in love?
It wasn't until i saw bison engaging in non consensual sex with Kant, completely unknowingly, because Kant lied about consenting. Except it was so obvious, it was so obvious he was lying. But Bison couldn't see it because he was drugged, because Kant impaired his ability to see the truth....
...Locked door.
Fadel and Bison are so in sync in some ways, the assassinations for sure. Fadel doesn't forget to include Bison when it comes to getting their mark
And all the cute bickering. But they also kind of just bicker? Kant and Babe have a sliver of Fadel and Bison's time, but their interactions are a lot more balanced, which includes bickering. But also other things like hanging out, talking about school, books, dreams.
like a true asian father fadel has forgot to sprinkle in even an ounce of intimacy amidst all that devotion. Forget sharing his past trauma, fadel has locked his bedroom, his interests, even his schedule away. I can't get over how Bison simply doesn't know what Fadel does every day even though he does the exact same thing.
Bison isn't incapable of getting real, he gets real with Kant, establishes boundaries, shuts him down, cares for him.
But with Fadel it kind of feels as though a constant undercurrent of conflict or a threat is necessary to keep them afloat. Fadel loves him but without this constant beating against Fadel's rough insides, would Fadel even talk to him? take an interest in him? notice what he wears? or asks him what his favorite story is?
Anyway, yeah it's weird that Fadel keeps his bedrom door locked. Maybe, Bison pranked on him too hard once.
#nani answers#the heartkillers#bison thk#why did i do this to myself this took 3 hours#gotta love that hyperfocus blackout
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So here's the thing: I don't usually engage with or care about top/bottom discourse EXCEPT when I think it's funny, sooo...
Let's do some Science and examine Pingxie in a Very Serious Manner.
To do this, first let's take a look at some data gathered from all the danmei novels and shows I know (relevant for calibration you know, since they have actual canon top/bottom dynamics.)
SVSSS
Shen Qingqiu - Since his cause of death wasn't starvation we can assume - well, at least hope - that he can make instant noodles, if nothing else, but he will absolutely avoid having to cook if he can help it.
Luo Binghe - As the Protagonist he of course has to be The Bestest at everything (...except sex, apparently) and it's mentioned that both Bingge and Bingmei use their culinary skills to woo the people they want to sleep with. He's also the top, even though everyone involved would be better off if he wasn't.
MDZS
Lan Wangji - Becomes a pretty decent cook, as per the extras. Prefers to top.
Wei Wuxian - It's not like he's incompetent, he doesn't burn or undercook the food, it's just that his taste is so extreme that his dishes are basically inedible to anyone else.
TGCF
Hua Cheng - No special talent for cooking, but at least he's not actively dangerous. There's no on-page sex scene in the novel, but it's made obvious that he tops.
Xie Lian - Biohazard. Weapons-grade culinary anti-talent. Gastronomy's answer to Vogon poetry.
Golden Stage
Ulike in most of the other novels on the list, food doesn't really have much symbolic meaning and not much is said about either Fu Shen's or Yan Xiaohan's cooking skills, exept for a brief mention of Fu Shen pickling eggs to pass the time. This is a rare couple that canonically switches.
Guardian
Zhao Yunlan - This man considers instant noodles cooked with coffee an okay way to surprise a boyfriend. He really wouldn't mind topping, which he keeps lamenting throughout the book, but he's paired with Shen Wei who might just have the strongest set preference out of everyone on this list.
Shen Wei - Likes to dote on Zhao Yunlan by cooking for him and is genuinely very good at it.
Word of Honor (mind, I have only watched the show here)
Zhou Zishou - Can keep himself alive, but left to his own devices would probably make due with charred-and-yet-undercooked fish or something.
Wen Kexing - A competent cook. While obviously not detailed in the drama I looked it up (or asked someone, I can't remember) and he's the top here.
Erha
Chu Wanning - Perfected exactly one (1) dish, is rather... unfortunate otherwise. You could not pay this man to top.
Mo Ran - Excellent cook. Actually worked in a kitchen at one point in his life, giving and receiving food is basically his main love-language.
Now that we have examined these canon couples and have drawn all the relevant conclusions, let's apply what we learned to our non-danmei, might-as-well-be-canon-but-isn't ship.
Wu Xie - Can cook just fine both in the novel and the drama-verse even if it doesn't come up too often. In the first season he cooks up a pretty decent feast for his friends and in the Yucun books he helps come up with the dishes they would serve in their restaurant.
Zhang Qiling - The entire Thing of this poor sod as a character is that he knows how to survive but not how to live. Taking the time to prepare nice meals or cook anything beyond basic sustenance just... doesn't fit that picture.
So.
I rest my case.
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Second Rate Second Chance: The Letdowns of Love is Better the Second Time Around and Living With Him
And we're back! We brought our good friend @twig-tea back to talk about how two Japanese BLs should have been 10s but absolutely flopped for us. This week we're talking about second chance romances, long-term pining, and their roles in queer narratives. Join us to break down what it's like to watch a show fall apart in real time.
Timestamps
The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.
00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Intro 00:02:38 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: What Worked 00:13:31 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: What Didn’t Work 00:23:32 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: Final Thoughts and Ratings 00:26:54 - Living With Him: How it Started 00:36:33 - Living With Him: Where it Went Wrong 00:44:40 - Living With Him: Final Thoughts and Ratings 00:52:03 - Why The Queerness Matters
The Conversation Transcripts!
Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.
We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.
Please send our volunteers your thanks!
00:00:00 - Welcome
NiNi
Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.
Ben
And there it is. I’m Ben.
NiNi
I’m NiNi.
Ben
And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.
NiNi
Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.
Ben
We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.
NiNi
And I review from a romance and drama lens.
Ben
So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…
NiNi
If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…
Ben
And if you generally just love simping…
NiNi
There is a lot of simping on this podcast…
Ben
We are the show for you!
00:01:15 - Intro
Ben
And we're back. This week, we're gonna be unpacking two Japanese shows that really let us down this season in our Second Rate Second Chance episode. We've brought our friend twig-tea back to the podcast.
Say hi, Twig.
Twig
Hi everyone.
Ben
We brought Twig back on because Twig and I have been watching Japanese BL and Japanese cinema for a long time. We have seen a lot of the good and bad of Japanese BL, and unfortunately both Love is Better the Second Time Around and Living with Him fall into the bad column for us.
We both have a genuine fondness for the way that Japanese teams often execute queerness with a lot of approachable specificity that really lets both of us connect to the queer truth of these characters.
That's personally important for me because, beyond these shows kind of fumbling the bag, they also undercut the queer narratives they're telling with some of the mistakes they've made. This is something that's becoming a burgeoning issue for me and Twig in our discussions about the state of global BL, and so we're going to also get into that towards the end.
00:02:38 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: What Worked
NiNi
Let's start with Love is Better the Second Time Around. Ben, what is Love is Better the Second Time Around about?
Ben
Love is Better the Second Time Around is a second chance Japanese BL about two guys in their earlyish 30s who were very close in their teens when they were in school together, broke up, and are now running into each other again as a result of work.
Our main character's name is Miyata Akihiro. He is an editor for some sort of business and economics magazine and he is assigned to work with this writer and professor, who happens to be his childhood boyfriend. They were supposed to be very serious, and then they had a really painful breakup at a crucial moment. Iwanaga Takashi has clearly still been in love with Miyata this whole time and is flirting relentlessly with this man. They work through some, but not all of their issues and are able to start going out together again before the show absolutely shits the bed.
Before we get to that portion of it,Twig! Walk us through the early developments when we were initially responding positively to the show and what we were really dialed in on.
Twig
The first four episodes of this show were some of my favorite television this year. Which is why I’m so upset about the last two, but we'll get there.
When they meet each other as adults, the messiness of their past is established right away, and you can feel the tension between them. The grudge that Miyata holds is really fun to watch. Iwanaga is a real flirt. He leans into the sort of playboy personality that was also really fun to watch.
It immediately felt adult. Iwanaga admitted to having casual sex with his assistant. Miyata made fun of him for it. They had a kiss in that first episode. It was so good. Miyata decided that he was an adult now, and he wasn't gonna be pushed around by his senpai from high school anymore. The assistant, Shiraishi, was a bitch. A really fun bitch to watch. [laughs]
Ben
[laughs] He really was. He was a real bitch for like, the first four or five episodes. I loved it.
NiNi
I enjoyed that.
Ben
He was played by Takamatsu Aloha, who was in Tokyo in April Is… playing Ren there. It was really fun to see him again.
NiNi
He really nailed the whole bitchy, “Who is this new person? Why are they around this person that I am perceiving to be my man? I need to get rid of this person quick, fast. What is the fastest way that I can do that?” Mm, loved it. It was so, so bitchy. Perfect.
Twig
And it played so well to what felt like the point of the story, which was that the main characters are older now, and to have this younger person around acting younger really helped highlight the fact that these older characters are a little bit more mature and so they're making slightly more mature decisions. [laughs] I won't say very much more mature, but a little bit. He actually worked really well to help emphasize that part of the story.
And we learned early on that Miyata was trying to get engaged; we also see him [laughs] fail at it so badly. That scene is one of my favorites, where he's opening the ring box and Fukuda-san, she won't let him propose. She keeps closing it in his face.
Ben
That was honestly one of the most enjoyable meta moments about BL, where the girl who doesn't deserve this sees a very bad proposal coming and physically restrains [laughs] restrains [NiNi laughs] the main character from opening the ring box so he can't propose.
NiNi
It was super funny. So good. She was just like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
Twig
It was perfect. And then, of course Miyata then called Iwanaga to complain about not being allowed to propose, which was perfect and gave more opportunities for extreme flirting.
I loved so much that these two characters started having sex again while Miyata was still mad and still unwilling to be in a relationship with Iwanaga. Miyata confirming that the sex did not mean anything.
NiNi
I loved that he was just like, “I wondered if you were good at this. I'm so mad at you right now.” [NiNi and Twig laugh] That was so funny!
Ben
That was also kinda hot, let's be real.
Twig
Yes! Ben and I had a whole conversation about how finally a scene with tension in yukatas pays off and we see people actually have sex.
Ben
Let me tell you. The real sign that you've been in Japanese BL for a while is when you see two fuckin’ boys in yukata sharing a room together and you know no one's gonna fuck.
Twig
Right? [laugh]
Ben
There's a fun one for the listeners. Sound off in the comments. List all of the Japanese BL that put those boys in yukata and then did not deliver.
Twig
But we got it in this one, finally. And we also got that iconic line, “If you love me, don't apologize.” Which is also, whoo.
NiNi
I did enjoy that. “Do not apologize for this because I'm ‘bout to have a good ass time.”
Ben
I wanna do a quick follow up on one of the comments you made about the maturity of these characters relative to Shiraishi in the story. This is a moment where Shiraishi intentionally doesn't deliver a message about an updated deadline to Iwanaga for the column he's writing for Miyata’s magazine. And it causes a real problem because now Miyata has to go rush to Iwanaga, who was away on a work trip, and get him to hurriedly write this article. It leads to an important sex scene, which is great for us and the yukata delivery that we were very happy about. But I really like that Miyata is so done with Shiraishi. When he finally confronts him about it, he's like, “I don't care if you don't like me, but you're fucking up other people’s lives when you do shit like this.” He wasn't angry at him, the just jaded disappointment cut that man to the fucking bone. He was not ready for it.
Twig
It both illustrated Miyata being more mature and also wasn't letting Shiraishi get to him, that you're not actually a threat, but you're now a problem, so you need to stop. It really highlighted how young and petty he was.
Ben
I really love the way you sum that up. “You're not a threat, you're a problem” is so succinct. And that's really what hurt him in that moment, he realized he had really fucked up. There's no winning at that point. There's only the huge loss of face on his part.
Twig
Exactly.
And then we got Miyata jerking off to Iwanaga’s face in the shower.
Ben
It was really accessible sexuality in this show that was actually really surprising for us because we've been dealing with a lot of cutesy BL lately, it feels like, so it was really refreshing to have these guys have access to their own sexuality and be able to express that and act on it.
Twig
There are ways in which sex is handled in BL. Sometimes it's held back to add tension to a story, but it's often also done in a way that makes the story feel puritanical. From episode 1, we knew that they wanted to fuck. By episode 3 they were fucking.
That just felt so refreshing. Yeah, these are grown ass adults who have had a previous relationship before. They know each other, so there's some level of familiarity there. They're attracted to each other. They want to bone down and so they do. That seems perfectly reasonable. It's actually ridiculous it doesn't happen more often.
NiNi
From the moment that Iwanaga sees Miyata again, it's game on. He's like, “Okay, this? This is happening. I don't care what it's going to take for this to happen, but this is absolutely happening.”
Twig
He bought that man cufflinks.
NiNi
He did what needed to be done, absolutely. He was not playing around. He decided that this is what they're doing and he made it happen.
Ben
So I think what I really wanna highlight here about this particular show with the second chance component is we were actually super dialed in on how seriously the show was taking that part of the premise. Iwanaga comes from a very wealthy family and he was dealing with some shit and he was like, we're gonna run away. Normal, stupid kid shit. The two of them planned to meet at the train station and get out of there and go make it in Tokyo. A stupid character we'll talk about later complicates the situation by convincing Miyata that Iwanaga is just toying with him. Miyata is hurt and embarrassed by this, and does not show up to go on the train. The two of them end up separated by Iwanaga’s family circumstances, and that was their big break.
So when they meet up again, Miyata has real beef with this man. And the show doesn't downplay the seriousness of Miyata’s hurt. That was such a real relief. If the characters have done real harm to each other, we do need to focus on the reconciliation that's critical for this relationship to work this time, and that was something that this show was handling so seriously. Even though Iwanaga wasn't actually giving Miyata all the things that we, the audience, were like, he needs to do these things if it's gonna work. His charm was enough that Miyata was wanting for them to complete the reconciliation.
We don't get second chance like this where the breakup was actually the fault of one of the guys, even if it's complicated by familial homophobia stuff. They were serious about each other at the time, but Iwanaga was doing this playboy shit even then. And so Miyata can't feel secure with him because it's the same bullshit again. I like that their 30 year old selves were not fundamentally different from their younger selves. They were just more experienced.
Twig
The last thing on my list of when I was still really vibing with the show is the “feelings-off,” as I like to call it. Miyata challenged Iwanaga, “You never felt as strongly about me as I felt about you” and Iwanaga said, “Try me.” And so Miyata challenges him, “Did you ever cry about me into your pillow? Did you think about me when I wasn't there? Do you jerk off to me, ‘cause I did.” He gives him four or five things to say, “Were you this embarrassing about me, because I haven't seen you be embarrassing about me.” And Iwanaga says, “Yes. I was.” And that's finally the thing that allows Miyata to give him another chance.
00:13:31 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: What Didn’t Work
NiNi
So we build all that up. We're having a great time. Everybody's vibing with the show. And then it all turns.
From the time that the family started showing up, that was when the show went, to me, off the rails. I was just like, all of this is interesting, but not the same story that they were telling all the time.
Ben
It was confusing. We were in this really solid second chance romance arc where we were focused on the guys rebuilding their relationship with each other. And then it feels like they didn't know what to do with the guys once the “fuck you, don't touch me” barrier falls away. They immediately complicate that by trying to reintroduce Iwanaga's family trauma as this sudden barrier.
This is the common theme with the two shows that we’re gonna talk about, introducing contrived bullshit barriers to keep the characters apart and fuck up their ability to talk to each other when the entire arc is built upon these guys improving the way they talk to each other. That's the real fundamentally unsatisfying aspect of all of this. I'm usually a defender for the way people interact in Japanese cinema. We talk about trying to bring a level of cultural competency to watching Asian media, having been raised in the west. Respect the way that these cultures handle some of their communication protocols when they're engaging with each other. We talk about respecting the way honorifics work in these languages and how that impacts the way these people talk about each other. Listening to some of the tones they use with each other, about how certain terms immediately signify things, and these things don't always translate well. You just have to be able to hear and understand these things. I don't really wanna give these two shows that we're gonna to continue talking about here a lot of credit for this.
This show was in the middle of a really satisfying second chance romance arc of rebuilding a relationship and then completely throws that out the fuckin’ window. Iwanaga is now the male scion of a wealthy family that disowned him for being a homo, but now needs him to come back because his sister is like, “Yeah, fuck all this Japanese nonsense. I'm marrying a foreign man and we're gonna r-u-n-n-o-f-t. That's fine as an arc on its own, but I kinda wish we had like an extra episode or two for these guys to move further along their arc before we introduced that, and it was doubly frustrating because Iwanaga immediately regresses in a way that is not satisfying because he isn't our main character. If Miyata was the one who was suddenly regressing, we have been in that man's head. We were in the shower when he was beating his dick to this dude. We get it. We know what this man is going through. So if he were the one to regress, we would be down with it. We would understand the emotional complexities that he was facing. But the difficulty with Iwanaga being the one to suddenly back off in the middle of all this family nonsense is we never understood the family nonsense. So reintroducing that with this shit heel of a cousin who really wants to fuck Iwanaga was just so deeply unsatisfying, and honestly kind of offensive, because they don't even dwell on it. They're relying on the shorthand of us just going, “Well, they're gay, right? Homophobia. Whatchu gonna do?”
NiNi
[laughs] What I was gathering the story was leading up to the family coming in at that point in time, is that at this point in the story, maybe their romantic feelings had gotten ahead of their commitment. So they're feeling a lot of things, but they haven't talked about a lot of things. They haven't decided what they're gonna do or who they're going to be to each other. They're just sitting in the moment enjoying being together, enjoying having sex and all that kind of stuff. But they haven't really decided what they're gonna be. And then all this family shift comes in so you're just like, oh, okay, they're out over their skis. They don't know what they're doing. All this stuff is happening at exactly the wrong time because it's throwing them back into a history that they haven't really dealt with. Okay, this is good.
But then instead of focusing on that, they focus it towards Iwanaga’s family and what actually happened back then and how it affects Iwanaga, and that doesn't really work? I don't care about that at this point in time. I want to know what's happening with Miyata and Iwanaga’s relationship.
Twig
I think there's room for where we could have cared about it, but we weren't given time or space. There's a story there of Iwanaga so alienated from his family that he wanted to run away with his boyfriend, and they found out about it, and he took all of the blame and didn't let anyone know who Miyata was so that he wouldn't get in trouble. And so his family disowned him. He was cut out of the family registry and cut out of his family’s life. There's a really tragic story there and we're given almost no time to sit with that or care about it. His hurt isn't given any time.
Instead, we just find out that Iwanaga made the decision to let Miyata think he was the butt of a joke and stay heartbroken for years, decade, rather than admit that Iwanaga had family problems when they were kids. And then we see him be willing to let Miyata go again for the exact same reason as adults. And so all of the work we'd seen Miyata do to process what had happened in their relationship in the past and decide to trust Iwanaga again. Iwanaga betrayed that trust, frankly, by not allowing himself to be vulnerable with Miyata. We find out in the very last episode that Miyuata actually fell in love with Iwanaga in a vulnerable moment, he saw him crying alone on the pier, and that was where his feelings turned to love. So we know that Miyata cares about Iwanaga as a person who is not perfect, and he wants Iwanaga to be less cool. And Iwanaga has not learned the lesson.
So, I left this series feeling like I can't trust this relationship to continue in any other way than exactly the way it's happened twice before. It's very frustrating.
Ben
There’s this moment in, like, episode 5 or 6 where Miyata goes and confronts Shiraishi, who decides to stop being a bitch at the final moment. Why?
Twig
I was disappointed.
Ben
He should have been a bitch the whole time. [laughs]
Twig
I just needed to see this man be mean to Miyata one more time and they didn't give me that.
Ben
That's the point, because Iwanaga never has that important vulnerable moment with Miyata. The emotional reveal has to come from the not-rival, which is not satisfying.
You know what? I'm not done bitching. Let's talk about what the show thought it was doing with the cousin. I feel like the cousin is meant here to be the stand in for what trying to be queer and closeted inside of this family does to you. So we get this vile man in Sugimoto who is just so gross and playing these goofy, manipulative games trying to achieve some sort of position for himself or his branch of the family. Is what I think they thought they were doing? It did not land for me at all.
Twig
Yeah. At some point, it seemed like we were supposed to believe that Sugimoto was secretly on Iwanaga and Miyata’s side the whole time. And he was, like, testing them and that test was supposed to be some sort of thing that they should be grateful for. I was like, no.
Ben
I'm gonna do that the next time I get called on some bullshit. You passed the test!
[all laugh]
NiNi
I legit don't understand, like I actually don't narratively understand what happened there. Not just in terms of what they thought they were doing thematically, but narratively that whole part of the story is so confusing.
Ben
NiNi is correct. The first four episodes we were like, “This is a banger. This is gonna be a 10. We gotta tell all the other girlies you need to watch this.” Episode 5 happens, we were like, “Whoa, what the fuck?” And then by the time episode 6 ends, we're like, “Never mind, girls. You don't need to follow us in this one.”
Twig
Shiraishi and Sugimoto have the same role and arc in that final episode.
Ben
Like, we already had a bitch. We didn't need another one!
Twig
Two bitches is too many bitches. [laughs]
Ben
And they didn't even team up and have, like, nasty sex or something.
Twig
Oh my God, I could have forgiven everything if that had happened.
NiNi
First of all, “Two bitches is too many bitches” is perfect, but the other thing is it feels like they thought they needed to have a bitch in the past and a bitch in the present.
Twig
Do you want me to tell you my theory?
Ben
Oh, bestie, I want to hear all of your theories. Go for it.
NiNi
Tell us. Tell us. Spill the tea.
Twig
So I tried really hard to find the manga for this because I needed to know what had gone wrong in the adaptation and I couldn't find it. If anyone out there has it, please send it to me. What I do know is that there are three volumes and that it's still ongoing. One of the things that Japan likes to do, usually one of its worst mistakes when they do an adaptation, is they try to squeeze together at least two volumes into what should be one volume series adaptation. And so we get one really good arc, and then an entire volume or two squeezed into the very end, feeling rushed because they are rushed. So that's my totally uneducated, but based on experience, guess about why this felt like two different shows and two different arcs. Because it probably was?
00:23:32 - Love Is Better The Second Time Around: Final Thoughts and Ratings
Ben
Unfortunately, that is gonna end it for this show. I really want you all, if you've taken the time to listen to us, to really understand that…end of episode 4, we were like 10s, 10s all around. This show is doing some great shit. There's some hot messes here that need to be resolved, but the way that we're being led through this with these characters, the way they're talking to each other, the way we're in it with them was so, so satisfying. Before this show shits the bed.
I am a queer cinema critic who really loves BL and the role it fulfills in the global queer cinema landscape. My goal is to connect other queer people to meaningful stories that they can enjoy. And sometimes that means that we have to say a show really fucked up, guys. If you do watch it, please understand that we loved the show for four episodes and then it transitions in a way that is not satisfying at all. But the first four episodes were still some of the best shit we've seen in a long time. And with that in mind, let's rate this motherfucker!
NiNi?
NiNi
I get to go first. Oh me, oh my.
Ben
We love J-BL, so you get to rate without us giving our ratings. [laugh]
NiNi
I will give this a 6.5. Disappointing me at the end is always gonna hurt me more than something that was wobbly from the start.
Ben
Twig-tea?
Twig
I gave it a 7. After I first finished it I gave it an 8, but the longer it sat with me, the madder I got. So I’ve downgraded it.
Ben
It is also a 7 for me, because where this show goes wrong is very obvious. I think BL viewers would learn a lot about the genre from watching this and understanding where some of us have come from. With that in mind, I'm giving this show a 6.9 from The Conversation because the sex was good in this show.
[NiNi and Twig laugh]
NiNi
Producer privilege rearing its head, I see you, I see you.
Twig
We didn't talk about how pretty Iwanaga is.
Ben
You know, we have not simped over these men. Let's talk about how fuckin’ beautiful Furuya Robin and Hasegawa Makoto were. Holy shit! We have needed some older guys in J-BL—older being 30, for fucks sake. [NiNi laughs] But these guys are fucking beautiful.
Twig
He put on his reading glasses and I [goofy voice] swooned.
NiNi
Hasegawa Makoto was a delight to look at.
Ben
Holy shit! As we're recording this, it is Furuya Robin’s birthday. Happy birthday, sir.
Twig
Happy birthday!
NiNi
Happy birthday, indeed. Keep aging like fine wine.
I'm so mad, though, this show was at 10 right up until, like episode 5, and then it went from a 10 to 6.5.
Ben
It really was. NiNi’s rating is not off. If I didn't think the show was useful to talk about for people, I would have given it probably a 6.
NiNi
Love is Better the Second Time Around gets a 6.9 from The Conversation, recommended with severe caveats.
00:26:54 - Living With Him: How it Started
NiNi
Let's move on to the next show that disappointed us: Living With Him. Ben, what is Living With Him about?
Ben
[deep sigh] Living With Him is about how we will never get the roommates BL that we deserve. [NiNi laughs] All of the energy that we were supposed to get out of roommates BL was lost to the Philippines during the quarantine period. We blew all of that energy on lockdown stories. Goddammit!
Living With Him is about two college freshmen who are going to live together because they were once childhood friends, and their moms think it might be financially beneficial and emotionally beneficial for the two of them to reconnect, since they're both going away to start school away from home and they would like for them to have someone to live with that they also know. We're primarily following Natsukawa Ryota, who is so excited to be going to college. He has dyed his hair brown. He is no longer gonna be doing house chores and taking care of his little sisters. He is ready to spread his little wings and figure out who his actual personality is going to be. He is living with his childhood friend, Tanaka Kazuhito, who is obviously gay and obviously has had a huge crush on Natsukawa for a long time. Kazuhito is also dealing with some major changes in his life—he was a national competing level baseball player in high school who can no longer play baseball due to a shoulder injury. It's very clear that Kazuhito has feelings for Natsukawa, and Natsukawa picks up on this fairly quickly, particularly because all of Kazuhito's friends are being real shady about it.
And I was really excited about what this show was going to be, because this was about two childhood friends reconciling and dealing with this major thing between them. What was really enjoyable about this show—now that we covered the premise of two childhood friends moving together, one of them has a crush, the other one picks up on it—is they talk about this crush in episode 3, and we were primed for the rest of the show to deal with this crush being in the open and reconciling what that change in your relationship is gonna look like.
Where this show goes wrong. After episode 3, episode 4 is them being awkward around each other—a completely reasonable reaction. They come to some sort of agreement by the end of that, and decide they’re going to go on a trip together in episode 5, but they do nothing with that. Episode 6 is a useless fuckin’ flashback episode about shit we already knew to lead into the seventh episode where Kazuhito decides to preemptively reject himself for Natsukawa's benefit, who suddenly can't open his fuckin’ mouth. Into stupid forced separation nonsense for a whole fuckin’ episode and then Japanese track star run for no reason, don't link up with each other, and then pick up episode 8 not dealing with the failed Japanese track star BL run. And we end on this perfunctory note where they wanna suddenly get us back on track in the finale.
Gone on an extensive ramble there. I apologize for you having to edit that, NiNi.
NiNi
I was just lettin’ you cook, fam.
Ben
I would like for you to unpack your experience coming behind us and catching up with our disappointment.
NiNi
As usual, when it comes to the shorter BLs, I like to binge, so I started Living With Him loving everything about it, loving the emotional core of what it is. One of the big things that really got to me is that they do, throughout the show, have flashbacks to their childhood, and there's a lot of good The Knowing content in there. I was just like, “Oh yes, this is so good. He's been feeling this way for such a long time. We're gonna delve into that. It's gonna be so good. It's gonna be so emotional.” [sigh]
And then they don't really do anything with that. For five episodes, the show had me. Kazuhito is teasing Ryota, saying-not-saying the thing. Ryota basically figures it out with the help of Kazuhito’s friends. He's now starting to think, “Okay, well, what is this?” To have a conversation about it. And then you're getting into episode 4 and episode 5, where they’re turning these things around in their heads, and then the last thing that happens in episode 5 that I really responded to, they have like a physical movement where he tells Kazuhito “You can hug me,” basically. And that moment was so heavy. It was so good. And I'm looking forward to having the outgrowth of that moment. And instead we get a fuckin’ flashback. [laughs] And then we get weird sort of casual-homophobia-not-homophobia from Kazuhito's mother.
Ben
Worse, we got compulsory heterosexuality.
NiNi
And then it's like that didn't happen in the end like, okay, that's a digression that we went on. We don't know why we did that. We're going back to the main story now. But now I've lost the emotional thread. They're doing all this stuff and it's cute or whatever, they decided they're going to be together, great, but it's not landing anymore. They've lost me. They've broken the tension. They've broken the emotional thread. I don't feel it anymore.
Okay. So, Ben and I have both talked a lot. Twig you step in here. What are your thoughts about this? How did you feel that the show went wrong? What did you think the show did well?
Ben
Walk us through your process, Twig.
Twig
It’s so, so bad. [laughs]
Ben
Walk us through it, bestie.
Twig
All right. Okay. I was so invested in these two. We start with Natsukawa and the show sets up so well that he's excited to be on his own, and he's unsure about his childhood friend Kazuhito being there. Kazuhito is immediately weird in ways that throw Natsukawa off, and which the audience, or at least the gay audience, immediately clock as, “Oh, this man is gay and catty about it.” NiNi, you called it teasing. Oh, it’s more than that. I was having so much fun with Kazuhito and the way he was like, “Mmm. I wonder what it could be. Why would girls always be unhappy with me as their boyfriend? I wonder.” This man. [laughs]
NiNi
It was so good. He was basically like, “I am trying to tell you in every way possible that I am A) gay and B) into you, and you are just not picking this up, sir.”
Twig
And he was mean about it in a way that wasn't mean mean, but when they go on their adorable not-date, which was some of the best domesticity we've had in a while, Kazuhito says to Natsukawa, “It's all right, you wouldn't get it.” The way he was just calling him out for being obliviously heteronormative without actually calling him out, it was beautiful. And the best part about that was he was wrong. Natsukawa did figure it out, and so Kazuhito being so sure that Natsukawa was too straight to get it, actually blew up in his face in a way that I loved.
The way that they were so honest with each other and the way that they cared about their relationship, this is one of the things that this show does really right about friends to lovers. Even though they're a little bit unsure with each other cause they haven't talked in a while, they still really care about this relationship between the two of them, and they don't wanna fuck that up. But rather than not fuck it up by holding it all in, they actually talk to each other about it ‘cause both of these men have an understanding that communication is actually important. Both of them say to each other at one point or another, “I think you've misunderstood something that I said. I'm gonna clarify that.” Or, “I said that that was a joke, but I was actually lying about that. I did mean it.” The fact that we got to a place where Kazuhito owned his feelings and said, “Listen, tell me if you're uncomfortable, but I'm happy to just keep things as they are” and Natsukawa immediately empathized with him and said, “Wow, this must have been so hard for you. Is there anything I can do to make this better for you?” That was beautiful. It was such a loving moment, even though it wasn't romantic yet? Their relationship was so good and then the show fucked it up so badly. [laughs]
The other thing I loved about this show, before I move on to why I'm so mad at it, was the way they used the friendship group to establish that Kazuhito had clearly talked about this man before, when he wasn't around, [laugh] to the point where his friends recognize who he was and how important he was to Kazuhito. So they met Natsukawa—they treated him like he was a minor celebrity. Like, “This is Natsukawa?”
NiNi
He reminded me of What Did You Eat Yesterday? When what's-her-name finally meets Kenji.
Twig
Oh yes! Yes.
Ben
I would like for you to note that NiNi is the one who brought up What Did You Eat Yesterday? this time, not me. [Twig and Ben laugh]
NiNi
Duly noted. It's delightful. He doesn't even have to introduce himself. Yoshida is like, “Oh, you must be Natsukawa.” And he's like, “What?” and she's like, “Shhh shh shh shh shhhh. Don't worry about how I know that.”
Twig
Kazuhito gets called away and he's like, “Come on, guys. Let's go there.” And they’re like, “No, we're good. We're gonna stay and talk to this man.” [Twig and NiNi laugh]
NiNi
The gossip is here! Why would you go where you are, this is where the good stuff is.
Twig
[sigh] And then.
00:36:33 - Living With Him: Where it Went Wrong
Ben
And then! Take us in, Twig.
Twig
Okay, so, episode 4 happened, and I did appreciate sitting with the awkwardness after the intensity of those emotional conversations and the uncertainty of what things were gonna be like now. That actually felt true. But the problem was it started to feel slow. This is where I think it started to drag.
Episode 5 was clearly filler. We go camping. Okay, there shoulda been a kiss. I'm still mad about it. What it seemed like they were trying to do with the camping episode was establish some of Natsukawa's insecurities. He wants to seem a little more competent and cool in front of Kazuhito. That already felt a bit weird to me because in their apartment he's the one who cooks, so he already has established himself as someone who does things that Kazuhito can't. He also in the flashbacks, in the earlier episodes to their childhood, was established as the one in Kazuhito's life who didn't see him as perfect. Who liked him as he was and as not perfect. So for him to suddenly be caught up in Kazuhito as a perfect guy didn't feel true to the character we'd gotten to that point?
NiNi
I felt like this episode was really about Natsukawa trying to flirt. I feel like Natsukawa has certain confidences, but the insecurities that Natsukawa is dealing with here are about his romantic potential. It's not that he sees himself as smaller or less, but it's more like when it comes to romance and sex and all those things he doesn't feel as confident in that way.
Twig
I agree with you, which is why it was so weird that so much of the camping thing was about how Natsukawa learned all of these camping things so that he could give Kazuhito a good time and then couldn't get the lighter started and so they had to rely on these girls. It felt like they were focusing on the wrong parts of him that he didn't have confidence in.
NiNi
But if he's trying to flirt with Kazuhito in this way, then maybe it's more like, “I'm trying to flirt and I'm failing at it” kind of thing.
Ben
See and this is where things could have been really interesting. Here is the problem: Natsukawa wanting to take care of Kazuhito as his primary way to respond to their situation made total sense. The only skills he's really developed outside of studying are domestic chores. Being unable to deliver on that front when they went camping was totally reasonable and there was something potentially interesting there, but they don't really deal with that properly. There's this actually kind of satisfying moment at the end where he says plainly, “I want you to rely on me more,” that lands pretty smoothly from where we were in episode 3, where he was like, “You must have been holding this for a long time. How do I help you?” And ending on “rely on me more, dummy,” was absolutely fine.
The big problem for me was episode 6. If the thematic point and the thrust of episode 5 is “rely on me more, dummy” the byproduct and answer to that in episode 6 should have been that man waking up and saying, “I've always relied on you.” But instead, the show backs off from them entirely by having Kazuhito break up in the next episode because they don't know what the fuck else to do. I guess. The natural response to that fucking long-ass flashback telling us that this man has always thought about this man, that he has defined a huge part of his adolescence, was for him to wake up and say it. And he doesn't. This leads to the finale episode where finally he says what he has to say and Kazuhito's like, “This is the happiest moment of my life. Let's dead fish kiss” and I'm like, absolutely not! This man has been horny for 10 years. I need to see that being released now.
The thing about me with this is, like—Shan and I joke about this. We are real haters. But like a big part about being a hater is being a lover! You love these shows. You love what they do really well, and where they fuck up is so obvious sometimes. The obvious fuck up of this show is Ryota saying clearly “rely on me more” and then Natsukawa not talking to him for basically two episodes after that, the end of episode 5 is a very clear request from one of our romantic leads to the other that the other romantic lead does not respond to. The guy who has been in love with this man the whole fucking time receives a direct request from him. The guy who was apparently the reason why he was able to get his fucking life back together, and he does not respond to that clear stated request, and because he can't respond to that, it shuts down Natsukawa's arc for the rest of the show about who is he beyond caring for other people. It's so deeply unsatisfying.
NiNi
Twig, in terms of where it breaks down for you, is that similar to where Ben's talking about or do you have a different place where things start to break down?
Twig
Episode 6 is definitely the waste of an entire episode, just illustrating things that they'd already told us through conversation. Show, not tell, but there's no point in showing us what you already told us. That's a waste of time. Natsukawa, his arc got completely fucked up by all of the wasted space in this show. That's why it feels so confusing and unsatisfying, because the order of what he goes through internally no longer makes any sense.
What we see him do in this show is he starts confused, uncertain about what's going on with Kazuhito. He has a realization about what's going on with Kazuhito, and they have the conversation about it. He has time to reflect on it and think about what his feelings are. He accepts his feelings. We see him realize that he likes Kazuhito, he wants to be with him. Then we see him hesitate about that, “Because I like you, it's actually really hard to tell you,” which is not how they've been communicating to date, but okay. And then he goes from that to concern about homophobia, which makes no sense to have as a thing to happen after you've already gone through acceptance and hesitation. And then it gets resolved. It was a confusing clusterfuck because it didn't make any sense, and the only reason why his arc happens that way is because they had those two filler episodes of his acceptance and hesitation in the middle that weren't in the manga. I did read it to figure out what the hell went wrong.
Ben
Twig, walk us through the experience you had reading the manga to get some clarity.
Twig
A lot of the things that I thought didn't necessarily work or I was confused by in the show, worked perfectly in the manga because of the order in which they happen and the lack of space between them. Natsukawa’s arc in the manga is, he reunites with Kazuhito, is confused by what's going on with Kazuhito, he has a realization and the conversation with Kazuhito about it. He's left to think about it. He immediately goes from that to his concerns about homophobia and then it's resolved.
So all of the moments where he realizes he feels good with Kazuhito, he wants him in his life, he misses him when he's not there, those happen after the concern about homophobia. It made a complete difference. Things that I hated in the show worked perfectly well in the manga because they made sense in terms of an order of events and the emotional arcs that people went through. It was a really good illustration of understanding the overarching arc you're telling and not just the moments, because they kept all of the moments of the manga, they're all in the show, but by moving them around a little bit and adding so much in between them, it completely changed how they landed for the audience.
00:44:40 - Living With Him: Final Thoughts and Ratings
NiNi
The show feels like it wanted to touch on a lot of things, but it also didn't want to touch on a lot of things, so we get some of Natsukawa’s arc regarding the way that he feels about having spent his teenage years looking after his sisters and some of the things that have come out of that. His family is a decently big part of the show. And there's some things there with his mom and how his mom may feel guilty and like she needs to make up for certain things. And then his sisters are still asking him for stuff even after he's moved out. They're still buggin’ him all the time. There's stuff in there that's swirling around, but it never really gets concretized.
And then there's stuff around Kazuhito's mom that again, swirling around and never really gets concretized. And I just feel like the show wanted to do all of these things, but they weren't serious about any of them. And then they spend all this time in the middle, these two entire episodes, pulling in a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with any of this.
Twig
I wanna pick up what you said about the parents. The show spent time with both Kazuhito and Natsukawa’s moms. We Natsukawa’s mom clock immediately that there was something wrong with Natsukawa because he was making something deep fried, which is a sign that her son is going through it. And I thought that was a really beautiful way of showing that his mom understood him. And then we got the conversation with Kazuhito's mom when the comphet happens where Kazuhito's mom asks Natsukawa to let her know if Kazuhito meets anyone so that she can find out about his love life because he never tells her anything.
And then the final episode, we get a moment with both moms where they clearly clock that something's going on with their sons and seem happy about it? And that was so unearned and made me so angry. Natsukawa’s mom at least seemed like she knew her son, but Kazuhito's mom was fully oblivious, and for her to get that moment of, “Oh good. My son is now happy with his boyfriend” to the point where—I took in these yukatas so that they can have this yukata moment—mmm, to bring that back.
Ben
There it is. Sorry, listeners, you won't get to count this show when you list them out.
[all laugh]
Twig
So they get these yukatas taken in so they can have them permanently. And nod to, “I know that you guys are gonna be a thing,” a quiet without having to say it aloud, “I'm cool with your relationship” and she makes an offhand comment that Kazuhito is so much happier now, like he was when he was younger, that indicates that she knows that Natsukawa is making a difference in Kazuhito’s life and she's happy about it.
Where the hell was that energy when she was talking to him before, where did this come from?
Ben
You're right, man. After two episodes of angst in episode 6 and 7, they rushed the shit out of the resolution in episode 8.
Twig
This show had too little material to work with, was too cowardly to add very much at all. The little bit that they did add was not good, so maybe for the best that they [laughs] didn't try to do too much, but they wanted to keep the main beat in the same place, which meant that they shoved a bunch of filler in the middle that fucked up the entire emotional arc and then rushed the ending. They just shat the bed on it. The part that I was actually really interested in—which is, what is this relationship going to look like once it gets off the ground?—we didn't get any of that.
Ben
This show was good for like 30 percent of its run, tolerable for about 62 percent of its run.
NiNi
62 percent, that was so specific.
Ben
It’s what 5 divided by 8 is. [Twig laughs] It's just math.
NiNi
Sir. Sir. Sir!
Ben
Anyway, this is from the same team that brought us Old Fashion Cupcake, so we're trying to understand why the people who have made a five episode banger decided to take what should have been a five episode banger and make it an eight episode fart.
Twig
Talk that talk.
Ben
This show was so vacant. They clearly ran out of the great source material by the end of episode 3 and did not know what to do for the rest of the show. Spending this much time in one character having intense angst over another character not ending in a satisfying release of that tension is extremely disappointing. If Kazuhito was holding these feelings for 10 years, that perfunctory little dead fish kiss was so unsatisfying. I rebuke it.
NiNi
We shall not speak of it.
Twig
The one thing that did keep me going through that last episode were the performances specifically of Sato Ryuga and Sakai Sho. The performances in this show were good and I would like to see them in something else.
Ben
I would very much like them to try again.
NiNi
I absolutely agree, even through all the nonsense I think that the acting was solid and I would like to see these boys do something again. [sigh] I don't wanna talk about this show anymore.
Ben
Let’s rate it!
NiNi
[laughs] Let's rate this sucker.
Ben
It's a 6. It's a 6. It was not exactly offensive, but this show made the egregious sin of being boring. How do you make a Japanese BL boring? That is the reign of Thailand, with its 50 to 100 fuckin’ minute episodes.
[Twig laughs]
NiNi
I'ma let you cook. For now.
Twig
The worst part about it is it's so close to being so good. You can almost fix it just by watching 1-4 and then 8.
NiNi
No.
Ben
No.
NiNi
No.
Ben
No.
NiNi
No.
Ben
No.
Twig
No?
Ben
[laughs] No. Absolutely not.
Twig
Ha! [Twig laughs]
NiNi
I would be right there with you normally, but 8 is not good.
Ben
I love you, Twig. [laugh] I will be back-to-back with you against anyone in this fandom. But I can't be with you on this, sis. Episode 8 fucking sucked because it doesn't complete either character’s actual character arc! Mm-mm.
NiNi
It doesn't pick up on the stuff that was going on up to episode 5, and then it also doesn't pick up on the stuff that they were doing in 6 and 7. So it doesn't follow either of the arcs that they were going with.
Twig
This is my point. You have to cut out all the shit it didn't pick up on [laughs] and then it's fine.
Ben
[laughs] You're gonna make it the five episode BL it should have been.
Twig
That’s what I’m saying!
NiNi
No. I'm sorry, even if you wanted to do that, I'm sorry, those lame ass kisses at the end? Forget about it.
Ben
NiNi! Rating.
NiNi
It was a 7 until this conversation, now it's a 6.
Ben
Twig-tea!
Twig
Yeah, I'm with you all, it’s a 6.
Ben
It's a 6 from The Conversation.
00:52:03 - Why The Queerness Matters
Ben
Both of these shows got less than a 7 from The Conversation, and the conversation about them is different. Love is Better the Second Time Around was actually so fucking good for the bulk of its run and then clearly jettisoned to go be something else instead. With Living With Him, it's very clear that they didn't know what to do with the amount of runtime they had. You can see this show falling apart in real time. This show was not it and it should have been. The potential was sky high and the show really let me down. It went from being a 10 to a 6. That is a terrifying fall. I don't think I've ever had such a turn with a show in my experience in BL.
NiNi
So, the thing about these two shows, why we ended up placing them together, aside from the fact that they started strong and flopped. The flop happened for both of these shows in trying to go for a flashback. Trying to go to time prior to the show to tell us… what, exactly? And I think that's the thing that really I'm taking away from this. If you're gonna do a flashback in a story, the flashback has to give you something, it has to mean something, it has to illuminate something. And for both of these shows, I do not feel illuminated by the flashback. I didn't feel like the flashback gave me either new information narratively or new information thematically and emotionally. I just feel like the flashbacks were there because they wanted to flash back to a different time for whatever reason, but there's no real reason in either of these stories for the flashback to exist.
Ben
It's because they're making the mistake of not recognizing what western M/M romance understands, that if you're going to break the characters up in a meaningful way, do it at the 60% mark.
Twig
I want to pick up what NiNi said, too. The flashback has to accomplish something and we should learn something from it, but also the character should have learned something since, and it should set us up for them to move their arcs forward in a way that makes sense from what we had before the flashback.
NiNi
Absolutely, yes.
Twig
In both of these cases, the flashback did not fill in the information to allow us to follow that character arc in any way that was meaningful or satisfying.
Ben
I'm not always keen on flashbacks in romance. I gotta be honest. The problem with romance flashbacks a lot of the time is, unless you're contextualizing something that the audience has picked up on the whole time, you're just retconning your show.
Twig
Yeah, I agree. For the most part. I think sometimes shows seem like their goal is to trick the audience and that most of the time should not be your goal except in very specific genre circumstances. Most of the time, your audience should be able to at least anticipate sort of what's coming-ish and be excited about it. The how and the why is the part that's interesting, not the, “Oh, you did something that you didn't tell me you were doing for the last however many hours of my life.” It shouldn't be a surprise.
NiNi
For me, that's not entirely it. I have enjoyed before a midstream flashback that tells me something brand new that I have to go back to the beginning and be like, “Oh a twist!” Like, I've enjoyed a twist flashback before. It's not even a question of that. It's a question of, the flashback has to have a purpose. It has to have a reason, it has to give me something, sooomething that I did not already know. Like I said, whether that's narrative, whether that's thematic or emotional, but it has to illuminate something new for me. It has to have a reason for being there. And I just feel in both of these cases the flashback had no reason for being there.
That said, I have enjoyed this episode. For many reasons.
Ben
It's because we dunked on Japan. That's it. [NiNi laughs] That's it.
NiNi
You can't even let me have the fun of saying it.
Ben
No, no, no. You don't get to have it. ‘Cause I love Japanese BL. This dunking is me trying to grab them by the shoulders, like James T Kirk grabbing people by the shoulders, and being like, “What are you doing? I need you to get it together. [laughs]
NiNi
I am enjoying this episode because sometimes I do feel sort of alone in my little “Eh, I'm not entirely feeling it” bubble on some of these Japanese shows, so it's nice to have company for a change, is what I was saying. I was not trying to shade you.
Ben
Here's the thing, let's unpack this. Japanese BL works for me the most often because their romance stories often track for something very specifically queer about them. All the Japanese BL that I constantly bring up on this show has romantic angst that also taps into my very specific concern as a queer critic. And that's particularly why I get frustrated when these shows fuck it up.
As Twig pointed out, Living With Him introduces a compulsory heterosexuality moment after the character has made the big emotional turn and recognized that he does want to remain close to his friend after he learns an important queer detail about him. That is a huge queer fuck up! The big fuck up with Love is Better the Second Time Around is, these guys went through the task of getting back together and trying to be open with each other and being vulnerable and kind of embarrassing with each other. When the homophobia rears its head again and is gonna separate them, the show does not reward us or the characters for the growth that they've been trying to achieve by letting them have that moment together to become a battle couple.
That's the real problem with it, ‘cause, like, in a normal fucking heterosexual romance, who gives a shit if the straights are gonna stay together? The whole world is going to help them stay together if they want to, or let them divorce if they don't. We're the only ones who're going to give a shit about each other when the boots come marching again. And so when I'm watching BL, I'm watching from the queer part, and when these shows fuck up on the queer part is when I turn against them so aggressively. That's why you’ve seen Japan not even catch strays this time. I'm sniping at them for these shows because this is not correct. [NiNi laughs]
This is the true fuck up. This is the crux of my disappointment here. They fucked up on the queer front, not on the romance part. I can take it or leave it on the romance part. Writing romance is not as easy as people think it is. People fuck that shit up all the time. But if you can do something that feels queer in a way that feels truly correct to me, I'll be very forgiving about some romance missteps. But both of these shows fucked up on the queer part of their romance arcs and I do not forgive that.
Twig
After they were doing so well, that's the part that hurts. They started getting the queer part so right and then got it so wrong.
Ben
I truly get you, why you don't always vibe with these shows, NiNi, because they're not always satisfying in that way as romance stories. I totally get you on that. But what always works for me in the shows that I want to advocate for when we get together is that these shows have a real kernel of queer truth that is worth connecting to and worth advocating for for people who want to engage with queer stories. It's why you and I were able to bond so strongly over I Told Sunset About You, I Promised You the Moon, and Bad Buddy. Those shows are satisfying romantically and also as queer cinema. The shows that we both love the most on here are very good at both of those things. But the queer part of their storytelling is non-negotiable for me in a genre about boys kissing each other.
NiNi
I hear you. I'm with you. This episode is gonna air right at the end of June. I think this is a great way—
Ben
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
NiNi
—for us to—
Ben
Oh yeah.
NiNi
—end Pride month.
Ben
Happy pride, bitches!
[Ben and NiNi laugh]
NiNi
Because it is important to remember that among everything else, amongst all the love and romance in this genre, that this genre is a queer genre and the queerness matters.
Ben
Any final thoughts you'd like to share with the audience, Twig-tea?
Twig
I don't have anything to add. That was right. Correct! That's what I have to say to that.
NiNi
That is going to wrap us up on Second Rate Second Chance! Twig, thank you so much for being with us.
Twig
Thank you for having me.
NiNi
We will see you guys next time. Until then, we out. Say bye to the people, Twig.
Twig
Dispatch!
Ben
Dispatch!
NiNi
[laughs] Say bye to the people, Ben.
Ben
Peace.
#ben and nini's conversations#podcast#the conversation#on art#lgbtq#bl series#japanese bl#summer series#summer 2024#love is better the second time around#living with him#kare no iru seikatsu#koi wo suru nara nidome ga joto
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Asian dramas and relationship dynamics (Pt.2)
There are my favorite familial and (supposedly) non-romantical dynamics as a list.
Brotherly love
Drama: The Untamed / 陈情令 Characters: Wei Wuxian & Jiang Wanyin Screentime: Secondary
My favorite brother couple! They tore my heart into million pieces and it's still broken. There is jealousy and love and difficult moral choices between them. Wei Wuxian is an extraordinary man, as the main hero should be. He is brave enough to go against the rules if he feels it's right thing to do, also he is ready to sacrifice himself for the greater good and hides all of his pain tightly inside. Jiang Cheng is a mere person. He is not strong (or insane) enough to put everything on the line, because he shoulders responsibilities for his sect. Although they love each other, Wei Wuxian is ready to die for the truth and chooses to fight if fight is inevitable. Jiang Cheng tries to go the path of "minor evil" and sacrifice his sense of justice in order to save as much as possible. The both views are OK and each goes the chosen by himself path and bears consequences of this choice. Consequences are awful. They are traumatizing. And, what is the biggest pain of mine, they never discussed it. They never found out about sacrifices they both made for each other. They never found out that they still love each other as brothers.
Drama: My Journey to You /云之羽 Characters: Gong Shangjue & Gong Yuanzhi Screentime: Secondary About these two I wrote two posts here and here . In a nutshell: one is carrying the responsibilities for everything and anything, strictly follows the rules and teaches his younger cousin how to live this life. The little cousin is yandere, who is obsessed with his older cousin, has no conscience and does his best to make his cousin's life better. I like this unusual dynamics: they both love each other and care for each other on the same level, even if one of them is yandere.
Master-servant relationship
Drama: Word of Honor / 山河令 Characters: Gu Xiang & Wen Kexing Screentime: Secondary I like this type of dynamics when servants become someone more than just servants to their masters. Chinese drama makers love it and use it a lot, but this scene was so powerful that made me cry. Beautiful transformation from a servant to a family member (unfortunately, post mortem).
Seeking out love
Drama: Fangs of Fortune / 大梦归离 Characters: Li Lun & Zhao Yuanzhou Screentime: Secondary
Once Li Lun and Zhao Yuanzhou used to be boyfriends. Then they broke up for reason not really understandable (at least for Li Lun), but Li Lun can't get over it and tries to get attention of his ex friend back with pretty villainous means. Him not being able to leave this situation and to move on will be the main reason he will die in the end.
Drama: Word of Honor / 山河令 Characters: Xie Wang & Zhao Jing Screentime: Secondary
Zhao Jing adopted a very skillful and absolutely ruthless killer as his son. The killer is self-confident and does his job playfully, but his weakness is his passionate desire to be loved by his adoptive father. He feels that Zhao Jing just uses him for his skills and will throw him away as soon as his adoptive father will not need his skills anymore, so he even paralyze his adoptive father to force him being always near. He ends up not being capable to choose his life over his father's and dies with him. A very sad type of addiction with "A little mermaid" type of moral: you can bring the whole world upside down, but if one doesn't love you, one will not, no matter what.
Drama: Painted Skin 2020 /画皮 Characters: Wang Sheng & Xiao Wei Screentime: Main In this B̶L̶ version of Painted Skin Chinese legend the fox demon is male and wants to get one of the humans that brought him home. But humans love each other, no one is interested in a fox demon, so he makes them pay for their previous kindness with blood, sweat and tears. In the end the demon gets a human heart, feels something (e.g. how hard it is to be a human) and makes up one more lie, giving to the soul of the man he wanted for himself a strand of his own hair instead of human's wife's hair in order to meet him in another life. The same moral as in the previous drama. The same sadness.
Also you can see: Asian dramas and relationship dynamics (Pt. 1) Asian dramas and my favorite types of characters Asian dramas and Love tropes Enemies to Rivals/Lovers recipe
#cdrama#tropes#movie tropes#SDabouttropes#period drama#costume drama#bl drama#wuxia#word of honor#The Untamed#xianxia#painted skin#my journey to you#family issues#fangs of fortune#break up
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Cupid's Last Wish Final Thoughts
Watch It Or Drop It The Challenge
A fireworks show of a drama which suffered from a few awkward pauses and which, even though it ended with the dampest of squibs, was a joy to watch.
Strengths
I think part of the reason I held off on watching Cupid's Last Wish for so long was because I was a little leery on the whole "BL but with body swap" premise. Don't get me wrong, I actually love the concept of a good body swap plot, who doesn't, I just haven't seen it done well very often. Luckily, however, Cupid's Last Wish more than impresses on this part and what could have been a very messy plot indeed was instead an incredibly well executed exploration of the self, the body, and the complex relationship between them. Through it's central premise Cupid's Last Wish delved into themes of gender identity, gender dysphoria and, as @wen-kexing-apologist, @lurkingshan, and @so-much-yet-to-learn delve into in this post, maps out a truly trans experience and, for that, it shines.
Another strength of the show, linked directly to the body swap, was how well it handled the misunderstanding and miscommunication between the main pairing. Normally, when confronted with a romantic miscommunication situation in a drama, it makes me want to tear my hair out with how unnecessary it is and how easily it could be fixed but not here. I could literally see Korn sending the wrong message and Win completely misleading things and I could understand why. At no point (apart from perhaps the last 2 episodes which I'll get to in a bit) was I questioning why Win thought Korn was in love with Lin or how Korn was unable to see what his actions were communicating to Win.
A final two strengths (before I move on to the weaknesses) are the cast and the soundtrack. I won't go too into depth (after all I expected Earth and Mix to put on an excellent performance) but the dynamics between the central trio were fantastic and Jan and Mix sharing two dual roles was an impressive (and impressively convincing) sight to see. Likewise the soundtrack was pretty basic but effective, the use of Tillybird's "Just Being Friendly" was a highlight and I've had Mix and Earth's "Closer" on repeat for my own trip.
Weaknesses
For all that Cupid's Last Wish does right, I won't lie, it also does quite a bit wrong with the main issue being that as well thought out and as beautifully executed as the body swap plot line, everything else feels a little... half hearted, half baked, half done. The inheritance plotline felt silly within a second of it being introduced (I still don't get why Win was so angry or why he held the grudge for so long when everything we'd been shown up to the "big reveal" indicated he should have felt the opposite); the Aunt and Uncle were barely there and, brief attempted murder on the part of the Aunt aside, barely villains at all (and were actually quite reasonable once they got to have civil chat); and the whole plot twist with the mum being the homophobic mastermind behind Win and Korn's estrangement was so poorly done and so rushed I'm still angry about it (she did absolutely nothing to be forgiven and I can't believe her revelation was swept under the rug in seconds).
I wish I could say these were minor things but they were, technically, half the drama and really soured things when it was time to focus back on them. What really put the nail in the coffin though, is the fact that these weaker elements became the entire focus of the show in the final two episodes which meant it ended with a decidedly wet plop rather than with a bang.
Conclusion
There is much to love about this drama and perhaps even more to explore with regards to its central theme but unfortunately some of its weaker elements were just a little too loud to completely ignore. I would still rewatch it (in fact I plan to) and I would still recommend it to anyone thinking of giving it a go (and even foist on people who weren't thinking about it at all) but I would also say that I wouldn't judge anyone who decided to speed run the final 2 episodes.
Watch or Drop: WATCH (but with a minor warning)
Final Score: 7.5/10 (closer to an 8 than a 7)
Would I rewatch it: Yes, heck I even want to write meta about it if I can find the time.
Watch It Or Drop It Masterpost
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so who in the relationship has mastered a huge number of weapon types and is always more heavily armed than the situation calls for, and who prefers improvised weapons and is always carrying a suspiciously non-weapon item?
#posts that are primarily about zhou zishu and wen kexing unfortunately#that story lives in my head rent free and doesn’t do any work so i end up saying things like#i bet wen kexing hates when zhou zishu fucked up the drape of his clothes with 50 concealed weapons#ryddles
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Shadow episodes 8–14
Well, that went to some unexpected places! I’m not sure it entirely held together in the end, there were definitely some dropped threads and weak spots in the cast, and the back end wasn’t as tightly paced as the first half. I still enjoyed watching this show overall but the back half didn’t live up to the hype they built with this release schedule, unfortunately. And not gonna lie…I kinda hated that ending.
Some initial reactions:
As I mentioned back when I finished part 1, this show is emphatically not a bl. There is no romance and the protagonist is not, in fact, gay. I do think this show marketed itself to bl fans and did a little dishonest baiting on that front and I will side eye it for that. It does have several explicitly queer characters and themes, however, which is probably why it’s on Gaga.
They disappeared Danai from his own fucking narrative! I was already bummed by him disappearing into a shadow coma for most of the last two episodes; it already felt like he vanished from the resolution of his own story. And then that final reveal that he never actually came back and Trin has somehow managed to possess his body. So the end for Danai, the character we’ve been following this whole time, concluded with him passing out on stage during his attempt to expose Anurak during the play and then getting squashed by Trin in the shadow realm? Thanks, I hate it!
The reveal of the shadow as the forest spirit (not to mention that goofy ass costume) was also kind of a letdown; I have no idea what this forest ghost has to do with the backstory they showed us for Danai and his family, and I ended the show still unsure of why this spirit glommed onto Dan in the first place. The complete dropping of the family trauma theme is especially egregious to me; I was so interested in everything they set up for Danai in part 1 but they left most of it on the table. Strange writing choices.
The final reveal of Brother Anurak’s whole deal lacked juice (and as the story continued it became clear the actor playing him was not strong enough for the role). Nice guy tries to do what’s right and fails and cries about it for twenty years is just kind of boring as the ultimate reveal of a spooky mystery story. And I didn’t really expect the haunting to be about state-sanctioned murder in the end. While I appreciate that the show is referencing real history and making a (somewhat garbled?) political statement here, this direction for the story felt like an awkward fit with the beginning, which was more about family trauma and homophobia.
I thought Trin’s story was the best executed part of the show. Fiat was great in this role and his plot and characterization stayed consistent throughout.
Poor Nai. The way Dan gave him that total stone face and zero reaction to his attempted kiss was almost worse than an outright rejection. And then the show added insult to injury by having Dan say he liked Cha-aim after all. You expect me to believe that shadow fucker is a straight dude who wanted to date the insipid girl? Okay show!
Anan was a pretty decent antagonist for most of the show (I hated that dude and his evil ass teacher girlfriend) but I thought him getting another girl pregnant and then murdering her together with the teacher kind of came out of nowhere? And ultimately his story didn’t connect to the larger reveal, he just exited stage left before the big dramatic climax.
After part 1 aired @wen-kexing-apologist tried to tell me my boy Josh was evil, and I was not having it. *Captain Holt voice* Vindication!!! Josh is just a garden variety dumbass teenage boy. I always believed in you, boo!
All the teachers were, in fact, sus. Not a single decent educator among them.
Fluke Natouch is very, very pretty.
And that’s all I got! I can’t honestly say I recommend this show to anyone who hasn’t already watched part 1, but for those of us who already arrived here I look forward to reading about the things you noticed that I didn't. This show has style and some of the cast is great, but the writing just didn’t hold up.
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thanks to @rainsfalling mentioning how there should be a wkx cat story once and @antique-forvalaka introducing me to the name ‘mao wen’ for cat!wkx, i wrote this a while ago and now i’m realizing i don’t actually have anything else in mind for it, so i’m just yeeting this onto tumblr for yall’s enjoyment. (i can’t seem to tag either of you i’m so sorry :(((( )
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“Lao Wen?” Zhou Zishu says, blinking. He went to sleep with Wen Kexing curled around him. He has woken up to a much colder bed, because the only other inhabitant is a cat. It feels like the height of foolishness to address the cat like this, but… he recognizes that look.
The cat makes a little noise, sits up taller, and pats his face with its paw. Zhou Zishu winces a little. A paw is not dextrous in the same way as a hand.
“Are you… This is ridiculous.” He’s talking to a cat. What the fuck.
The cat rolls its eyes at him.
Zhou Zishu begins to sit up. Immediately, the cat hisses. “What?” Zhou Zishu hisses back.
With a very clear and deliberate look at the window, dark and cold since it’s still the middle of the night, the cat reaches over and pushes his shoulder back down.
“You want me to go back to sleep?” He can’t help the amusement in his voice.
Once again, the cat makes a noise. This one sounds declarative. This is, unfortunately, going a long way towards convincing him that it actually is Wen Kexing, wild as that seems.
“Alright, well, I’m not complaining,” Zhou Zishu says, lying back down. He’s too tired to roll over, so his face is planted into the pillow.
There’s another sound from the cat. Pleased, maybe? And then—
“Ouch!” Zhou Zishu hisses.
The cat has walked onto his back. It hisses back at him this time and gives him a soft whack with its paw. Stay down, he interprets.
“I’m staying, you bully.” But his irritation doesn’t last long. The cat gives a satisfied huff and then curls up on his back. No, Zhou Zishu realizes, not just his back. Directly over his shoulderblades. He can’t help but laugh at that.
“Alright, Lao Wen. I’ll see you in the morning.”
#wen kexing#zhou zishu#wenzhou#shl#my fic#i had the idea 'mao wen is equally as obsessed witgh a xu's shoulderblades but now he can just Be On Them'#and then my brain stopped thinking
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I have not been able to stop thinking about this since episode 9 aired and I read an excellent insight into Pat’s character this morning by @wen-kexing-apologist so I wanted to talk about Jeng because he is the character that I relate to the most. Granted, I am not a high level manager in my parent’s successful company, BUT I’ve worked office jobs and I’ve been in management positions and overseeing people. Please keep in mind that I am approaching Jeng as a white queer person who was raised (all over) the United States so I can only truly add the perspective that gives me. Also I wrote this while bored at work so I was definitely not nearly as articulate as I like, and this might not be anyone else’s interpretation and I completely understand if you do not agree with me here. With that said, here we go:
I am probably the most cishet passing person in the world. There’s no particular reason for this other than it’s just the way I am and how I like to present. I don’t risk my safety by presenting queer, I just don’t. I live in a big city, my family is incredibly supportive, my friends are queer, a good number of my coworkers are queer, I am not closeted. But people see me and they assume that I am straight. For the purposes of this post I'm focusing on sexual orientation rather than gender what I’m focusing on because my relationship with gender right now is basically the shrug emoji. Despite being out as bi since I was 24 many years ago, I still find myself constantly coming out to people because if I say nothing, assumptions are made about me and those assumptions are based on a heteronormative worldview that society has cursed us all to and those assumptions about me are wrong.
Now let’s look at Jeng. I’m not gonna mention Pat because I fully believe that Pat’s response to learning Jeng is attracted to men was entirely based on his own repressed feelings and not entirely an assumption that Jeng is straight. Jeng passes as straight. I’m sure that’s due to a combination of his position, his family, and just his overall personality. We know that Jeng is out to people. He talks to his friend about Pat, Jaab asks him about his feelings towards Pat, and when he brings Pat home, Jeng’s parents see Pat and make some assumptions about what occurred. So a significant number of people in Jeng’s life know that he is gay and it’s not only a significant number that know but the people closest to him know as well. The other people that are able to clock Jeng in this show are the other queer people. Chot and Jen just know. They see how he looks at and interacts with Pat and can see the humongous crush that Jeng is nursing. So Jeng is working under the assumption that around these people, he is out. He might present straight and he might keep that up for work purposes, but he believes himself to be out to at least the other queer people near him.
Then Pat says this:
And Jeng breaks. And I get that. Jeng knows that Pat is gay, Jeng thought that Pat knew he was gay. Jeng thought they were on the same page. Other queer people in Jeng’s life have known he was gay without him needing to explicitly state that. Pat, the person Jeng has been flirting with and has confessed to (while he was so drunk he couldn’t understand Jeng you beloved idiot) had no clue. At least that’s how it appears to Jeng, who is now in the unfortunate position of needing to out himself. Let me tell you something, it is exhausting to have to constantly come out to people. Every new person that I meet, if I want them to know that I am queer, I need to explicitly tell them because if I don’t, they will never know. I’ve had people think that I’m just a really good ally before. There are times I wish I was so entirely and visibly queer that no one would ever doubt it, and I’m sure Jeng felt that in this moment with Pat. It just takes one look at his face during this scene to know that Jeng has been here before and he is tired and his heart is breaking.
How many people do you think Jeng has had to make a choice between outing himself or letting them work with false assumptions regarding his sexuality? How many times has Jeng chosen to closet himself instead of being who he is? How many times has Jeng been interested in another man but had no chance because that person didn’t know or care to believe he is gay? Just needing to make the decision on whether or not to explicitly say, “Yes, I like men” or “I’m gay” is tiring in and of itself, but then the actual saying of the words? Depleting. Especially to someone who you thought already knew. It hurts when people think I’m just a really good ally. I can’t imagine the pain Jeng felt at Pat’s surprise because to Jeng, that surprise indicated that Pat saw him as a good ally (again, I do not think that’s what was going on with Pat but this is about Jeng and his interpretation) and not as someone with interest in him.
Then Jeng learns later on that Pat just doesn’t understand how someone like Jeng can like him. It doesn’t make sense to Pat. How many times has Jeng been made to feel like his sexuality, coming from him, doesn’t make sense? I’m sure his dad had some things to say about it. I’m sure part of the reason he left previously was due to that. So while Jeng is out, it is a constant coming out process and then an entire new process to get people to believe it. Jeng’s sadness is mostly about Pat rejecting him, but I’m sure at least a small part of it is also the tiny piece of him that was so sure that Pat at least knew he was gay.
Jeng now believes that Pat has only ever seen him as his straight boss and that can’t change. Pat sees him as a coworker, not even a friend, not even a member of the queer community. Just a coworker and nothing more. The revelation that Jeng likes and is attracted to men, made Pat uncomfortable. Is it because Jeng doesn’t obviously present as gay? Is it because he isn’t as clockable as someone like Chot? Now Jeng has to think of not only all of his interactions with Pat, but also all of his interactions with the other queer people in his office. Does he have to come out to them too or do they already know like he thought they did? Jeng was so busy being the most smitten man in the universe, it didn’t occur to him that his giant, massive, all-consuming crush on Pat might not have been obvious. I’m guessing the straight people in his office have been working under the assumption that he is straight. Will he need to come out to them too? He has been handling this for who knows how long, but this time, this time it HURTS.
Jeng was so worried about crossing the boundaries by being Pat’s boss that he didn’t even think about how dating a man would impact his worker’s perception of him. I don’t think he ultimately cares about what they think of his personal life or his personality as long as they are able to function as a department. But when Pat asked if he liked men, Jeng had to start reevaluating everything. Not just his interactions with Pat, but his interactions with the world. No wonder he seemed so just completely and utterly tired this episode. When Jeng and Pat finally work through their little miscommunication issues (which makes so much sense and work so well with this show I can’t even begin to describe my actual love for it which is weird cause miscommunication is my least favorite trope), I don’t think Jeng will actually change anything about the way he presents himself to the world. He still has his family to think about, and he’s still, well, he’s still Jeng. But I think this gave him some things to think about himself that he probably already knew but didn’t think he would have to explain to another queer person. Especially not Pat. Pat is out at the office, but it wasn’t entirely his choice. Pat outed himself so he would stop getting put in awkward conversations about the women in the office. Jeng might have seen something similar to himself in Pat. Pat could potentially pass as straight, and in fact did at the very beginning. He let people think he was dating a woman. Pat was careful who he came out to at the office. Jeng probably thought that of all people, Pat would understand him the best. Not explicitly out, but not in the closet either. How heartbreaking for both of them that their experiences clashed in such a way. But once those two get on the same page? They are gonna be the cutest couple in the entire world and I am so excited to see Jeng, finally, finally, be able to express his love for Pat to Pat as much as he wants to.
#step by step#step by step the series#step by step bl#yes i love jeng a whole lot#i also love pat a whole lot#i am very open to different interpretations here#because a lot of this was definitely informed by my own worldview and my own experiences#also please please go read that post about pat because it is so incredibly good and much more thought out and put together than my rambling#i read it this morning before i went to work and it was such a brilliant start to my day
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I think modern AU Zhou Zishu would have multiple passports with different first names—James Zhou, Xavier Zhou—and even sometimes last names, but Wen Kexing probably had Kevin Wen written on his and that’s that; that’s the unfortunate story.
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A sequel to the ‘most annoying guy TM in the Jianghu’ and ‘most annoying guy TM in the cdrama capital’ poll because I was specifically asked to include Ming Tai and honestly he deserves it
Propaganda of a sort under cut - also feel free to provide your own
Ming Tai: as a teenager (early 20s? unclear: Hu Ge is blatantly in his mid 30s but we're ignoring this because he's a good actor) and a baby brother raised by significantly older siblings, Ming Tai is the spoiled brat. He's also very good at being a competent spy when he needs to be, but that doesn't make him less annoying when he wants to be, which is always
Shang Xirui: of all the characters on here he's the only one I actually personally cannot stand, but that's partly because he sings opera and I have discovered through watching Winter Begonia that I do not like opera of any kind. But also he's insufferable and needs to get a grip on reality. Some things are more important than the show! Like FOOD! And the WAR!
Zhao Yunlan: SUCKING TOO HARD ON YOUR LOLLIPOP OH LOVE'S GONNA GET YA DOWN. Guardian was the first CDrama I saw and I actually don't remember what he did but I do remember that he liked to cause problems
Wen Kexing: Winner of the 'most annoying guy in the jianghu' poll, I don't think I really need to write propaganda about him but like. Has he considered a method of flirting that does not consist of stalking a random homeless man?
Wei Wuxian: 2nd in the jianghu poll. Everyone knows why he's annoying, I won't go into this any more than to say in the Cloud Recesses arc he distinctly reminds me of one of the most annoying people I have ever met in real life
Lin Chen: 3rd in the jianghu poll and my personal Favourite Guy. To paraphrase @nemainofthewater: 'if he was in it for any longer I wouldn't be able to stand him, but he's only there for long enough that it's actually charming'. Enjoys the fact that he's smarter than (almost) everyone else and likes to be obnoxious about it
Mei Changsu: came joint 1st in the 'most annoying guy in the cdrama capital' poll. Professional party ruiner, but he does try to only enjoy it when his political enemies are suffering. Gets to tag team with Lin Chen bc I don’t want them to split votes and also because between them they manage to annoy literally every character in the whole show
Fan Xian: joint 1st in the capital poll AND 4th in the jianghu poll because he is annoying all the time and everywhere. As a transmigrator he is (unfortunately) aware that he is the main character, causes problems on purpose
Zhao Yujin: 3rd the capital poll. I won't lie that this surprised me because I have seen one gifset total for this show on tumblr (the one that persuaded us to watch), but I guess for those who have seen it it is a legal requirement to vote for him because of literally everything he does ever. In his defence he fell in a pond as a child and then his overbearing mother babied him. That being said, he is an adult now
Huang Yaoshi: included because of @tavina-writes's extensive propaganda in the jianghu poll: my favourite part of it was "the OG torture flute soloist; his flute solo canonically sounds like sex, x-rated porn sounds"
Wu Xin: I missed him off the original jianghu poll, and also the whole point of the polls is for me to try and get people to watch my shows so there’s more fic and I’m not just here crying on my own. An overpowered gremlin boy. 'Would you like to get kidnapped?' 'no??' 'ok that's cool I'm kidnapping you anyway!'
#the disguiser#winter begonia#guardian#word of honor#the untamed#nirvana in fire#joy of life#oh my general#legend of condor heroes#the blood of youth#ming tai#shang xirui#zhao yunlan#wen kexing#wei wuxian#lin chen#mei changsu#fan xian#zhao yujin#huang yaoshi#wu xin#cdrama poll#poll
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