Neverafter notes (1)
I am re-doing my Dimension 20: Neverafter notes. However I will go in a slightly different direction – since not many people are interested in these posts, and I do them mostly for me anyway, I’ll go with a… drier listing style I guess? Here my notes covering the three first episodes – aka the first arc of the season – aka the entirety of what we have with the first version of the Neverafter multiverse. Episode 1, The Time of Shadows. Episode 2, Mirror, Mirror. Episode 3, No Place for a Prince or Princess.
THE CHILDREN OF DESTINY:
Rosamund du Prix is Sleeping Beauty. More precisely she is a take on Disney’s Aurora – between her backstory involving three good fairies and a wicked one (the good fairies being recognizable by their colors, the third being dressed in blue) and the character herself being played like your “typical Disney princess cliché” (and twisted around – the whole thing of animal handling and survival in the wood being a D&D Ranger, or how her gifts of beauty and grace are about maintaining good-looks despite living in the wild and having agility bonus). There’s however some brothers Grimm points thrown into it all – such as the focus on “briars” and how the thorns killed all the princes that tried to reach
Gerard of Greenleigh is The Frog Prince (aka the popular culture take on the brothers Grimm fairytale “The Frog King”). Frog humanoid= D&D Hobgoblin.
Pib is Puss in Boots. From the French fairytale of Charles Perrault. Talking cat scoundrel = D&D’s Tabaxi Rogue. By episode 3, Alphonse (the mule from the original fairytale) turns out to be an actual talking animal too and to still be around the Neverafter.
Pinocchio is… well Pinocchio. Talking puppet = D&D’s Warforged. Is a Warlock, with his broken nose as his wizard’s staff and the Stepmother as his patron.
Timothy “Mother” Goose. Mother Goose. Famous figure-of-speech/title expression thanks to Perrault, but only became its own character in England, where she became the British “mascot” for nursery rhymes and fairy tales. Even got a nursery rhyme of her own, “Old Mother Goose and her son Jack”, of which Timothy as a character derives from. The Jack from this nursery rhyme is also the Jack of the game which is ALSO the “Jack be nimble” rhyme. Timothy’s husband, Henry Hubbard, is also from the nursery rhyme world – “Old Mother Hubbard”. Storyteller witch and caretaker = D&D’s Bard.
Ylfa Snorgelsson. Is Little Red Riding Hood: the Perrault version (since there was no Huntsman or Woodsman to save her, and she was “eaten” in the end – more here bitten and turned into a werewolf), but with touches and dashes of the Grimm version (the axe evoking the Woodsman, the whole thing about “not straying from the path”). Turning Little Red Riding Hood into a werewolf story has been made very popular thanks to the first influential work of fiction who did it: Angela Carter’s Gothic collection “The Bloody Chamber” which contains three short stories interweaving werewolves and Little Red Riding Hood (The Werewolf, The Company of Wolves, Wolf-Alice). These three tales were mixed in the cult classic movie “The Company of Wolves”, which added to Carter’s plotlines an exploration of the symbolic puberty of a young girl – something that is also explored in how Ylfa’s lycantrophy is treated. Werewolf Little Red still a popular take (the 2011 movie).
SOURCES OF INFLUENCE FOR THIS SEASON:
Into the Woods. Definitively. They make it very obvious. The giants being one of the main threats crushing everything ; the way the briars talked to Rosamund about keeping her safe (the Witch’s “Stay with me”), how Brennan and the gang repeat “Into the woods” in episode 2.
The Book of Lost Things – very possible. The Time of Shadows works so much like how there’s this cyclical corruption of the fairytale world in this novel. And both are about a magical quest to restore the land centered around a magical book supposedly containing all of the answers…
Fables. Maybe? I have never seen anywhere else the idea of “The de-transformed prince slowly turns back to his cursed form as the love of the princess wanes” (Gerard and Elodie, Beast and Beauty). Also the use of “living archetypes” within a collective fairytale world – something that Fables also became very famous for. Plus the Snow Queen being shown as an antagonist and an invading force.
Guillermo del Toro’s Pan Labyrinth. Maybe? The moment of “let’s all touch the book” in episode 2, especially when some drawings started appearing out of blood, reminded me of the magic book of this movie. Plus, it is a classic of “dark fairytale” movies, or “fairytale horror” if you prefer.
Terry Pratchett’s Witches Abroad. Almost certain, if not definitively. The entire sequence of Rosamund meeting the traumatized mice and talking to them reuses almost word for word the ideas that Pratchett brought in his novel about animals in fairytales being driven mad at being forced at acting humans. The entire thing of the Fairy Godmother and her transformed minions seems pulled out straight of the “fairytale horror” of this novel and of Genua’s fairy godmother tyrannical rule.
Shrek. Probably? After all it is the most famous piece of American media to deal with fairytales outside of the Disney movies… At least it is frequently referenced by the players.
FAIRYTALE CLICHES PLAYED AROUND WITH:
# “Happily ever after”. What happens once the fairytale ending is reach. The case of Elodie and Gerard is an especially fascinating case of exploring the metaphysical and human consequences of this idea. Elodie can’t stand the feeling that her life is supposed to end after her marriage, Gerard’s belief in happily ever after makes him passive and delusional, and the logical consequences of such a strange case of “meet-and-match” lead to the lovers with incompatible desires and personalities to fall apart. Logical consequences also evoked with Stephan, Pib’s owner, an illiterate miller son will have a hard time passing off as royal nobility.
# Magical things happening to royals naturally.
# “Do not stray from the path”. Pretty much unique to Ylfa’s fairytale, but still heavily discussed and played around (The important thing is that we stray together ; is it still straying from the path if a magical one opened in the woods).
# Bandlebridge is tricked by the old rule of “You must grant every demand of the magical being to get your reward”.
# Not a fairytale trope, but I love how the idea of “fireside stories” is reinvented with this magical silvery log that wards off the camp from “goblins and boggarts” as long as someone tells a story as it burns. Is it a real D&D item?
# The “dark forest” motif. Of course there is the “Black Wood” of Grimmweir… Though it is said to be but one of the several “primeval forests” filled with dangers on this continent. Averted with Rosamund’s ranger talents which turn a deadly travel into a pleasant stroll by episode 2.
# Some characters not having names in fairytales (The Stepmother lost her name, nobody can remember it).
# Emily asking to specify if it is “mother blood, stepmother blood, godmother blood, grandmother blood” is a good joke on how fairytale trolls and giants can somehow smell very specific types of blood “Smells like Christian blood”, “Smells like an Englishman’s blood”.
"Once upon a time". The answer to the total party kill that Ylfa gets from the Big Bad Wolf - "the end of the story" embodied revealing to her the "wicked beings" are all motivated by preventing the "turning of the pages" - and thus that the book isn't here to "restore" the world by returning into the past. It isn't about clinging to what once was, it is about moving forward and telling new tales - not returning to the happy ending as the Fairies obsess over but rather move forard to a new "Once upon a time..."
KINGDOMS AND HOW THEY FELL
# Rêverie. Sleeping Beauty’s kingdom (fitting name). Fell due to the Sleeping Beauty curse, as the briars overtook everything – because a thorny wilderness.
# Greenleigh. The Frog Prince’s kingdom. Fell due to a war as the Snow Queen’s armies invaded.
# Snowhold. The Snow Queen’s kingdom. Invaded Greenleigh for unknown reasons.
# Marienne. Puss in Boots’ kingdom. Fell to giants that crushed everything. It is unclear why, but given later episodes evoke the Ogre of Carabas as the giants’ little brother, it might be revenge. Also contains Amanti, Pinocchio and Gepetto’s village – so Marienne seems also to be the main country of Pinocchio’s adventures.
# The Lullaby Lands. As the name indicates, the place of all nursery rhymes. Not a kingdom as it has no central government and is more of a collection of autonomous communities – which already is a sign that it does not “fit” into the “Grimmweir” continent and was added to this fairytale world where everything is a kingdom. Pottingham is the village of Mother Goose and Ylfa – making it also the village of “Little Red Riding Hood”. Hasn’t much fell, but has known all sorts of horrifying manifestations (the Gander, the Wolf) ending in death (turned to skeleton, house and family blown away) plus recurring bad weather and persistent rain causing flooding.
# Jubilee = realm of Old King Cole. Fell to a war, though the details are unspecified. Given Jubilee was right next to Greenleigh it might have been the same war launched by the Snow Queen.
# Shoeberg = the Old Woman who Lived in a Shoe. A “festering boil” and one of the last thriving places in the Neverafter.
# Tapestry. Snow-White’s kingdom. Fell for unknown reason. See the Magic Mirror entry.
# Elegy. Cinderella’s realm. Also fell for unknown reasons – though we do know Cinderella’s hometown and the area around it “fell” due to the insanity and the spells of the undead Fairy Godmother. One of the symptoms of this kingdom falling is that the “courts of the sun and the moon” seem in disarray or conflict, leading to a very bizarre sky which is not in day nor night, and where the sun shines in a purple starry twilight (might be an Alice Through the Looking Glass reference – The Walrus and the Carpenter). Had a “burgeoning” middle-class of merchants, traders, artisans and craftsmen to which Cinderella’s father belonged, and the hunt of the prince with the shoe became the hot-gossip of neighboring royals (such as Gerard).
FAIRIES TALK
# So we have five confirmed fairies in this version of the Neverafter, plus a possible sixth one, and an ambiguous seventh. Rosamund had three good fairy godmothers – given the third one has a blue dress, and she asks about the undead fairy’s dress-color to identify her, we can assume going by the Disney code these fairies were the Red Fairy, Green Fairy and Blue Fairy. Plus the Wicked Fairy, dressed in black – who also was the Wicked Fairy involved in Pinocchio’s return-to-being-a-puppet as she came to just… kill all the fathers of Amanti I guess? She is clearly meant to be the archetypal “wicked fairy” (plus Disney’s Maleficent).
# The Fairy Godmother of Cinderella is stated to not be the same as the fairies of Rosamund’s story. Purple gown. Driven mad as Cinderella’s shard caused her to be stuck in a state “neither alive nor dead”, constantly bleeding out both blood and magic. Started turning every item she could meet into half-servants (and even before she was said to have gone on a spree of forcing people to fall in love and having animals turned into humans). Kept repeating Cinderella’s storyline to various degrees (help them win the “Mayfair queen”). The same way Rosamund’s fairies are a take on Disney’s fairies in “Sleeping Beauty”, this fairy is very clearly Disney’s Cinderella godmother (she even says her magical line) ; interestingly her having a crown on the head seems to be a nod to the enchantress/fairy of Disney’s Beauty and the Beast, especially since the description of her minions (such as a bouncing armoire) are very clearly reminiscent of the sentient furniture in Disney’s Beauty and the Beast. Episode 3 confirms that she was the fairy who turned Gerard into a frog when he was a little boy to make him “learn manners” as she thought he was “rude” – again reinforces my theory that she has “Disney’s enchantress from Beauty and the Beast” vibes.
# The Sugarplum Fairy was possibly the sixth fairy of this world. When Herr Drosselmeyer turned into text, there were references to “sugarplums” and “a fairy”. If he had stayed longer perhaps we would have met her.
# The ambiguous seventh is the Fairy with Turquoise Hair. She is present and involved in Pinocchio’s backstory, as I write this I can’t recall if she is meant to be the same as the “Blue Fairy”. If not this makes her the sixth or seventh fairy of this world.
# Fairy blood smells like cinnamon, spice, sparks and ambers.
# The Fairy Godmother’s comment that “Magic was never yours, it is ours”: fairy monopole on magic?
MORE CULTURAL REFERENCES
# The Gander is the inversion of the traditional Mother Goose imagery + a twisted take on the “Goose Laying Golden Eggs” motif + a reinvention of the trope of the genie granting you three wishes, but in a horrifying and/or deadly way. Literal embodiment of the Time of Shadows as we will later learn, and not just one spirit among it (as such parallels The Crooked Man from The Book of Lost Things – also an evil wish-granter). Tumblr user lostsometime evoked how the Gander using the verb “wander” while taunting Timothy might be a reference to “Goosey Goosey Gander”.
# It will later be confirmed but we know here (especially from how Ylfa gains the power to blow away with her breath people and houses) that the Wolf is both the one from Little Red Riding Hood and The Three Little Pigs (British fairytale, Joseph Jacobs).
# The town of Shoeberg and the family who runs it, led by a 107 matriarch, is from the nursery rhyme “There was an old woman who lived in a shoe”.
# What was the Chandling Caravan/Company named after? The Rub-a-Dub-Dub/Three Men in a Tub nursery rhyme, because “chandler” is candle-making… Or maybe the old British children song “Tommy kept a chandler’s shop”? Or maybe none of this and I’m reading too much. The leader of the Caravan is of course from “The Little Red Hen” story (American “fable”, from Mary Mapes Dodge).
# Old King Cole = the nursery rhyme of the same name.
# Herr Drosselmeyer (“magician, clockmaker and godfather”) and the characters surrounding him are, of course, from “The Nutcracker” ballet. The Nutcracker himself is evoked in various ways as someone Drosselmeyer pursues: at first he is presented as a “clockwork man” and one of the magical creations of Drosselmeyer that got away and run off on its own ; later he is revealed to be Drosselmeyer’s godson: “driven to rash behavior by grief” he is now working on a revenge that worries Drosselmeyer. As he dissolves into text, there are mentions of the Sugarplum Fairy and the Mice King, “or King of Rats with seven heads”. Is the alternation “Mice King/King of Rats” important? If this season is indeed inspired by Pratchett’s fairytale twists, then it might have leaned into something akin to “The Amazing Maurice”, where the myth of the “rat-king” was mixed with the Pied Piper of Hamelin. Maybe the same here? Herr Drosselmeyer also seems to have been more than just a Nutcracker character… Everybody pointed out that him driving around in a teapot pulled by a giant rabbit, and having a magic mirror in his collection, gave off strong Alice vibes (plus there is a clock with a cat symbol on it that stops time… Cheshire Cat and Mad Hatter?). I also thought about how it was insisted that he turned into an owl upon touching the book, and his comment that he was not a “kind man” before – given he seems to come from a world of fairytale ballet (and has strong link to birds, he captures the ostrich) maybe Von Rothbart from The Swan Lake? The character of Drosselmeyer and the Swan Lake plot had already been mixed in another fairytale-deconstruction work: the Princess Tutu anime. Also there is an insistence upon “winter time” in his “dissolving text”: maybe Snow Queen ties?
# The Magic Mirror was first suspected to be the one used by the Snow Queen – due to the low temperature around it, Zach even asked if it was snowing near the mirror. However it is revealed to be the mirror of the evil queen from Snow-White, answering questions if asked the rhyme (“Mirror, mirror, leaning against a wall”). Very likely created by the dwarves of the kingdom, since Tapestry is known outside of its fine crafting to be a place of magical items created through “spell-craft” and “enchantments” by dwarves. Also interestingly, the Mirror seems to encourage people to ambition (“do you want to be the wisest, richest, fairest in the land?”) and wants to be returned to “her”. Given it asked Pinocchio, it seems the Mirror wants to return to the “evil queen” (absorbed/covered by the Stepmother).
# Cinderella. Her story went wrong when she returned to investigate what her Stepmother did to her step-sisters and what happened to her. Fairy Godmother tried to force her to return to the castle and her prince and ignore all that. She stabbed her with a broken heel of her glass slipper, turned glass spear ; now is a warrior dressed in a “crystalline glass armor” and part of the “Sisters”. Her backstory is basically Disney’s plotline (the Fairy Godmother even uses the Disney Godmother magical line) but with elements of the Grimm version added (the sisters cutting off toe and heel).
# The Stepmother started out as Cinderella’s stepmother before… becoming all wrong. As we will learn later she became the “Stepmother” archetype, but so far all we know is that she used to be Cinderella’s human stepmother, did some foul magic by devouring her daughters (ogress motif), and then became this otherworldly spirit serving as Pinocchio’s stepmother. Plus, has ties (yet unknown) to Snow-White’s witch-queen of a stepmom. (silhouette in the door to check), and of course when Pinocchio uses her magic she manifests as a puppet-master using him as a puppet to enact her revenge against Cinderella’s Fairy Godmother (episode 3).
OTHER NOTES
# The list of threats for the Time of Shadows is given as “giants, witches, wizards, and creatures of the sea”. We meet all of them except for the wizards. Maybe it was something up Herr Drosselmeyer’s plotline?
# Time of Shadows is a cosmic/metaphorical storm AND a literal set of storms that cause bad weather everything (the pouring rains causing flooding in Pottingham is described by episode 1). Got huge King Lear vibes from this – especially since King Lear is THE fairytale-play of Shakespeare.
# The book is clearly about restoring the Neverafter into its peaceful, happy, “regular” state from before the Time of Shadows, however it is shown to work differently for the different types of stories it is confronted with. The book “activates” itself by nursery rhyme-characters (creates sounds as Old King Cole speaks, makes Timothy tingle upon hearing about the Old Woman who lived in a shoe) and ultimately absorbs them ; with fairy tales-characters it seems to mostly show them *where* their story got broken (Rosamund sees her flickering prince, as her prince did not come ; Pinocchio sees the island of toys which is a big part of the adventure ; Ylfa sees the wolf in the wood which is also the point of her story switching). With nursery rhyme characters it just restores them back to their original state and sends them back to a nursery rhyme world (makes sense as we learn later how the nursery rhyme universe was forced into the Neverafter) ; but it needs in the fairytale side of things an “early part of the world that was broken off” in the shape of specific items that it “hungers” for. All items reflecting famous stories, and tied to the Princesses, but warped in the Time of Shadows. Two are confirmed: Cinderella’s glass slipper, turned into a broken shard of glass then glass spear ; and Elodie’s golden ball, turned into golden mace in the times of war.
# Greenleigh has “wise women” in charge of medicine, tonic and other products of the sort. Grimm fairytale nod.
# Here “Carabas” was the title of the ogre-lord before Pib can in and made Stephan a Marquis.
# Gerard and Rosamund’s families are closely related: just a joke, but they are still cousins “three different times”.
# Trollsons are a thing in this world, a name for descendants of trolls (pun on “son”, as the Nordic suffix).
# Lord Bandlebridge’s comment, while a classist statement, confirms that witches, fairies and ogres have an habit of disguising themselves as beggars.
# We never get to know who the “young teenage girl” of the caravans was.
# We’ll see if the whole witch system in the Neverafter is clarified. Because we have your usual, random, human witch living in their tiny corner of the world and performing humble magic (Timothy Goose), and we know that later there are big, evil, powerful witches of multiversal scope. So… I’ll keep this for later episodes.
# Has Drosselmeyer’s giant rabbit’s name any signification? Eidelgrin? Probably not…
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i saw a post talking about neverafter slander on twitter so i went to check it out
here are some thoughts: (keep in mind, i’m not calling anyone out or saying your opinion isn’t valid if you agree with one of these points. try to read this as a light hearted discussion, like talking about a book with a friend)
a lot of it is people saying the season wasn’t horror enough and while i agree it’s not exactly as straightforward horror as the marketing suggested i think that that’s a take that is fundamentally misunderstanding what this is. it’s the horror season of dimension 20 which is a d&d show first and foremost. it’s not going to be following the beats of a horror movie because that’s not what they’re doing. when you run a horror campaign you fold in horror elements which they have been excellent at doing especially in the eldritch and existential categories
not to make assumptions but it seems to me that a lot of people making a big fuss about this haven’t played d&d for themselves. the things i have seen suggested the most for making the season more in line with the horror people were expecting involves turning the campaign into a more dm vs players situation (which is joked about a lot in fandom but in more of a meta humor way than is being suggested). this is something that anyone who has ever played in a bad campaign knows makes it a hell of a lot less fun to play and, i’m assuming, not so fun to watch either. the point of playing d&d is to work together to tell a story, if you go into to making a campaign with the goal of making your players lose, everyone is going to be miserable and your story is going to suck.
following that, some people are ragging on brennan for forgetting details and not having the lore entirely fleshed out. as someone who does unnecessary worldbuilding for homebrew campaigns every single time, i would just like to say on behalf of dms everywhere: it’s hard! there’s so much stuff to keep track of and so little time to keep the lore straight if you want the session to keep moving smoothly, i’m sure it’s even harder when you have a limited time to film the episodes/season
and maybe it’s just me, but i love horror movies (and other media) and neverafter is about as scary as most horror movies i’ve seen. it’s definitely better written than a lot of horror movies, we get to know the characters and are fully invested in them when bad things happen. it’s sort of on the level as the hellraiser reboot imo. some people make the point that besides the body horror, there’s not enough gore/blood kinda stuff, but i think gore isn’t truly horror, especially in a spoken format. it’s more of a shock factor thing, like a verbal jumpscare
and i’ve seen people saying that the pcs are too much like heroes/they’re too capable to be in any real danger, but in a horror movie, most of the bad things happen around the protagonist(s), they’re still thrown into the shit but most of the time they make it out. horror as a genre is so ill-defined anyway that people still debate if slashers and thrillers even count. plus, how many times in a movie has a side character been forgotten or something about the lore has been off? and that’s with multiple people overseeing the production.
jumping away from the “it’s not like the horror movie i envisioned” complaints, i’ve also seen a lot of people say it’s confusing??? and tbh i’m more confused about that than the campaign. to me it’s pretty straightforward, no more confusing than starstruck at the very least.
for the big picture: it’s different factions of people with conflicting (but occasionally overlapping) goals than all need to get to macguffin in order to reach whichever goal they’re aligned with
the pcs have their own character arcs which are very clearly laid out throughout the season
the minute details are there because that’s how you make your world feel lived in
and yeah, there’s a lot of potential in the stuff they could’ve done but didn’t. but i feel like that’s the whole point, y’know? this is the story they did tell, and the thousands of other ways they could’ve told the story live on like every retelling of a fairytale.
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