#narcissist crash �� when a pw/npd becomes unable to sustain an ego (often due to lack of supply/failures/humiliating events) & enter a sever

[eclaire-went-bam]

Hi I had a few questions about the Dutch Van Der Linde NPD post :-)

I'm not trying to be rude or an asshole, I'm just genuinely confused because there seemed to be conflicting things.

You seem to agree that he has NPD but then call folk ableist for calling him a narcissist. Saying they're demonizing personality disorders.

I know and understand why demonizing NPD amongst other personality disorders is bad. But I don't understand why people calling him a Narcissist = demonizing.

Dutch is a terrible person so obviously people would point out his terrible actions along with a possible personality disorder. Because the disorder is a huge part of his character for some folk, which I'm sure it is for you.

I guess what I'm really wondering is what do you classify as ableist when it comes to discussing Dutch and his possible NPD?

The post, or I guess the way things were worded, made it hard for me to see your point.

Thank you :-)

rolling around tysm for the ask /gen!!! i did word things a bit unclear bcs a lot of my posts are catred to ppl in my own community so don't worry :)

i'm also using terminology associated w/ npd in this post so refer to tags if you don't know what something means

it's a bit complicated & i tend to over-explain so strap in !!

acknowledging he is a narcissist is fine! but the term "narcissist" very specifically refers to a mental illness & is a term very often mishandled

the problem lies here!

on one hand, people will know narcissist refers to npd specifically, but they won't care & are thus very explicitly demonising pw/npd. i've seen a great many posts (not just from this fandom!) who will call a character a narcissist, and then will proceed to prescribe that as the reason why a character is a bad person. npd is a personality disorder which yes, can often cause a lot of interpersonal conflict if not properly coped with, but it can also present in numerous other ways (eg, people-pleasing) — people who are abusive don't generally have npd and pw/npd aren't all abusive (many are actually abused themselves! if i had a dime for every article/post i've seen detailing how to make a narcissist crash, i'd be rich lmao). so automatically correlating abusive behaviour w/ having npd is very damaging to pw/npd

or,

on the other hand (this i see Most often), someone doesn't really seem to know that being narcissistic is a mental health thing and are using that word as a stand-in for a plethora of negative words — which is really easy to do given how much it's used incorrectly in a lot of anti-npd short form content (tiktok, yt shorts, etc ...). someone may use the word "narcissistic" when they're trying to describe someone who's self-centred, or rude, or aloof, or vain, or abusive, when they could use any of those other words just as easily while both being correct, and not including that underlying stigma

the vast majority of posts i've seen refer to dutch as a narcissist, are using that word in a derogatory sense to air their frustrations with the character — not as a genuine analysis, and not acknowledging the nuances of npd

it is important to note, many of these people would not call a character who is seen as a good person a narcissist, even if they may exhibit many narcissistic traits in canon, because narcissism already has a really negative stigma attached to it that they would be perpetuating. if dutch did nothing problematic in the entire series, i'd still headcanon him as narcissistic, but i get the sense that many just wouldn't because it hinges so much on the worst of his character

an egotypical may see dutch being simply careless with anyone but his own skin as he drags everyone down with him and call him a narcissist

whereas for me, i may see him desperately trying to appear as the greater-than-life man everyone talks him up to be to the point of delusion and self-sabotaging while everything is falling apart around him and call him a narcissist because yea, me too honestly !!

the first position is often tying narcissism to a shallow and overwhelming negative view of a character, because one may already have a bias that narcissism = living your best life as your family falls apart or something

so imagine like ;;; an allistic seeing a blunt character that is often viewed in fandom as autistic, and calling them autistic because of the outward bluntness — especially if they view bluntness as a bad thing. this view may perpetuate stereotypes about autism while also not really offering any nuanced look at the character. that, vs an autistic person seeing the same character and maybe relating to how confusing that social interaction was, and how awkward it must must've been for the character realising they did x y and z "wrong."

using the same example, there could be a character in media that's considered extremely blunt and mean to others, who's implied to be autistic. it's fine to not like said character, lord knows i'm thinking of a Few i hate, and being autistic doesn't excuse people from being mean to others, but to insult a character for being blunt because of their autism is pretty ableist! just like how having npd doesn't excuse any characters abuse, and someone can not like their vanity, but it'd be kind of ableist to insult a character for being vain because of their narcissism

or just like how an autistic character may unintentionally be mean to somebody due to misunderstanding social cues/being overstimulated/etc and will thus be percieved as cold and unkindly, a narcissistic person may percieve small criticisms as really pointed attacks that can cause crashes, which can cause us to become defensive & be percieved as childish or uncooperative (here's a good post that talks abt how certain problems may appear from a narcs pov, for example). these are just little things that oftentimes people who don't have said condition may not understand, which can contribute to a really flat reading of a character based on More Stereotypes

of course, you don't have to have a specified neurotype or mental disorder to headcanon someone with something (though i definitely recommend the Nuance ahaha), but i get the sense that when ppl use "narcissistic" with dutch, it's less of a respectful headcanon that acknowledges the disorder & how distressing it can be to not only others around him, but him as well, and more as a jab coming from the users own personal experiences from people they didn't like, or as a way to explain specifically just his abusive behaviour & nothing else (which is already a yikes cus that implies someone's automatic association with abuse is people of a very specific stigmatised neurotype). and i mean hey, dutch does deserve. Like. Multiple Jabs. (understatement). but it shouldn't be at the expense of people who actually exist irl who struggle w/npd

no i do not excuse dutch's problematic/abusive behaviour, i literally physically recoil from my screen whenever i see him do literally anything, and it's pretty evident that untreated Issues™ definitely contributed to him going batshit (especially considering as far as every account i've seen go, he was pretty damn Decent in terms of 1800's outlaws prior to blackwater), but i can definitely say that i do rlly relate with some overarching themes with him & can often pretty much hear what he's thinking sometimes without necessarily thinking something he did was okay. & again, there are sooo many words in the english lexicon, people can definitely choose words that aren't specifically related to conditions when talking abt what they don't like about him

so many other headcanons, whether it be regarding race, gender, sexuality, neurodiversity, etc, are treated with a lotta respect on this website! you'll hardly ever find someone seriously insulting a character's headcanoned autism, or gender identity, or anxiety, with such genuine vitriol. i've seen people also headcanon dutch with major depression or bipolar, but i've seen nobody use either terms to insult him — because we all know that's insensitive. so why should npd be any different?

so yeah i hope this made it clear, i don't think its wrong or ableist at all to to have discussions about how a potential personality disorder could've affected his thinking or decisions, but a lot of the posts i've seen have been less about discussion and more of just finding ways to express their hatred of dutch. which ;; i'm sure you can imagine how tiring it gets to see these kinda posts which demonise something you are, in a community for a game you really enjoy, and just have everyone in the comments/tags kinda nod their head. nnnot fun to always catch strays ^^;

anyways that's my spiel tysm for the ask i really like to Yap™