#myth's thoughts

[autisticgoten]

More thoughts on aroace Goku/the autistic Son family (+ headcanons and postcanon ideas)

Because I couldn't justify putting them all in the art I just posted lmao

[Image ID: An aroace flag colour picked from Super Saiyan Goku, with Goku in front of it. End ID.]

I have always read Goku as somewhere on the aroace spectrum, especially during the early series.

(Thoughts/Goku-based thesis under cut)

In early Dragon Ball, Goku often has to have social concepts such as sex, gender, romance, etc., explained to him. This, of course, is related to the running joke that he's sheltered and has no comprehension of things which are second nature to most people.

[Image ID: A panel of Roshi saying "I am appalled by your inability to judge women!" Goku responds, "Really...?" End ID.]

(From Chapter 25, where Roshi is horrified that Goku does not objectify women. The surrounding panels are worse, typical early series jokes.)

He's 12 here, around the age where media often portrays young people as developing feelings of attraction. Though his lack of interest may be portrayed as due to his isolation, that really wouldn't have that much bearing on experiencing romantic interest when he explores the rest of the world. Toriyama consistently choosing to write Goku like this seems to say something more about him than just this running joke.

Then, of course, there's the (somewhat infamous) scene where Chi-Chi confronts Goku when they are both 18 or so and insists that he promised to marry her.

[Image ID: Two panels. In the first, Goku thinks, "Wow... And all this time, I thought she meant something to eat! Well, I guess that's it... I did promise!" In the second, he faces Chi-Chi and says, "Okay! We'd better get married!" and she says, "Yay!" End ID.]

(From Chapter 171. Searching for this exposed me to too many people's opinions on Chi-Chi.)

Goku is remarkably casual about agreeing to marry someone, especially as he didn't really know what it meant a few minutes ago. I really don't think this is intended to be taken too seriously -- it's largely a joke about how nonchalantly Goku treats things that are super important to most people, because he has other priorities than most people.

I don't think this is a reckless/stupid moment for Goku (or a predatory moment from Chi-Chi as I've unfortunately seen people say). He's young and doesn't understand social expectations very well and you know, he made a promise. It's perfectly reasonable to him.

Goku is now 18 and still exhibits the same cluelessness when it comes to romance, even though he has been around the world and met many people, including people his age.

This moment also makes me think a lot about my headcanons of both Goku and Chi-Chi (and the whole Son family) being autistic. Goku is so so autistic to me -- he largely exists outside of social expectations and is confused when they are imposed onto him, he is focused on one thing (mastering martial arts) to the point where other things seem unimportant to him, etc. On the other hand, Chi-Chi is also autistic but in the way of attempting to adhere strictly to social expectations because she wants to Fit In (#girlautism). Women get married because they were promised to someone when they were young and that's that.

This diverts from manga canon/Toriyama's writing, but in the anime filler about Goku and Chi-Chi's wedding there's a whole dumb bit where a character called Grandma Hakkake 'teaches' her how to be a good wife by making her clean her house.

[Image ID: A screenshot from the Dragon Ball anime where Chi-Chi is intently cleaning up a pile of dishes. End ID.]

(Episode 151)

It's so absurd that it makes me think about Chi-Chi rather desperately adhering to the social role of a Good Wife. When you consider this, it contextualises a lot of her characterisation. She is frustrated with Goku because he doesn't fulfill some socially-expected aspects of a Good Husband, such as earning the household's income, keeping Gohan in school, etc. She is frustrated because she has done her very very best to be a Good Wife and yet he doesn't seem to be trying at all.

This is NOT an attack on Goku in any capacity, I don't think he's a bad husband or father at all. There is a difference, however, between Goku's personality and the social construction of a Good Husband.

I'm thinking about this post by @gokustits where @dbfandom breaks down this rather infamous panel from the original Japanese (I highly encourage reading and interacting with the post because it's excellent).

[Image ID: A panel where Chi-Chi is yelling "Oh, come off it, Goku-sa! You never do any work, and you never look after Gohan-chan--!! Have you ever made a single penny since we got married--!?" End ID.]

@dbfandom: The first bubble is her scolding Goku for being an absentee father, but it's through the societal lense. She's saying he's a bad father (by societal norms: aka a "provider"), but not a bad "dad", and she's angry about the year and a half in which Goku was absent but could have not been (due to the wish to Porunga to be brought back that Goku refused!)

The difficulties in their marriage largely come from this miscommunication, where Chi-Chi assumes that Goku knows these societal norms because they're societal norms, but of course he doesn't. This isn't really either of their faults, especially as they got married at 18 (!!!). It's more tragic than anything to me.

Their early relationship feels kind of like 'playing house' to me. Chi-Chi has a very specific idea of marriage and Goku goes along with it. I do think they're happy, especially before the Saiyan Saga starts, but it feels less related to the social expectations and more in spite of them. They develop a relationship and enjoy spending time together, fall in love in some capacity for sure, but when Goku is pulled in other directions that relationship is strained.

This is going more into the realm of reading between the lines/headcanon, but my interpretation of Goku's feelings for Chi-Chi are really just that he enjoys spending time with her and doesn't mind what form it takes. I view him as a sex-neutral ace (he doesn't care much either way).

I don't think there's any doubt that Goku loves Chi-Chi as their relationship ends up.

While Chi-Chi's initial feelings for Goku definitely seem like she convinces herself that she has them because she's betrothed to him, I also think she develops very real feelings for him. I read her as a little aroace-spec too, though I think she specifically enjoys romance as compared to other ways of being with someone more than Goku.

Anyway! Onto the kids!

[Image ID: A coloured DBZ chapter cover in Japanese, with Videl, Goten, and Gohan. End ID.]

(Chapter 428/DBZ 234)

Gohan is actually the only one of the Son family I read as totally allo, lmao. Well, there's really not much evidence either way, but his romance with Videl feels fairly natural to me. If anything, they have more obstacles to their relationship than pressures.

(Except that one weird moment where Chi-Chi is excited that the girl Gohan likes is rich, but I personally don't think that influences him too much.)

I do really think Gohan and Videl is just one of these rarer cases where people fall in love in high school and get married young but end up with a pretty healthy relationship.

(It happens. I started dating my partner of 8 years in early high school lmfao, though we do certainly have some aroace-spec shenanigans going on)

Not to say they're completely untouched by social expectations and all. Being in a heterosexual marriage certainly comes with plenty of that. Gohan getting married young like his parents does also play on my mind. Even if he wasn't pressured into it, society certainly doesn't object to anything he does.

As for Videl, she is also very allo to me with her initial crush on Gohan. I like a lot of their early relationship which is built on training together.

(This only makes Super even more frustrating with how they completely strip Videl of her personality and what made this relationship interesting.)

[Image ID: A trading card of high school Videl and Gohan back-to-back, looking at each other over their shoulders and smiling. End ID.]

I also read Gohan as autistic, though he's better at masking than Goku. He also sometimes struggles socially (though this may also be part to his isolated upbringing) and has special interests (entomology in Super, of course, but also martial arts just like Goku -- I'm sure he has complex feelings about this considering his trauma but also his earnest love for it in less high-stakes situations i.e. Saiyaman).

Okay! Finally nearing the end, onto Goten (and a bunch of my headcanons)!

[Image ID: Three panels. In the first, Trunks says, "Y'know what, Goten?!" and Goten responds, "What?" In the second, Trunks says, "If I tried... I bet I could only beat you with one arm!" In the third, Goten says, "What?! One arm?! You can not!" End ID.]

(Chapter 433/DBZ 239)

To the surprise of absolutely nobody, I love Goten. I love the energy that he and Trunks bring the Buu Saga and their fun, childish outlooks.

I read Goten as autistic too ("no way, tumblr user autisticgoten"). Alongside some of his characterisation which feels very inspired by young Goku's, his friendship with Trunks also makes me think of this.

Often, Trunks is the instigator, proposing schemes for Goten to join in on. This may be explained by Trunks being the older and more confident kid, but I also like reading this as Goten being Autistic in the way that he really wants to fill the role of Trunks' friend well.

[Image ID: A full-body illustration of young Goten in his gi, smiling. End ID.]

(my art! full post here as I remain proud of it)

As for queer stuff, well...

We only have brief appearance of teen Goten as written by Toriyama, in the DBZ epilogue.

It's fairly brief and the most insightful thing, really, is that he mentions he's going on a date, which means he's interested in romance in some capacity.

[Image ID: A panel where Goten says "And I had a date tomorrow, too". End ID.]

Honestly, any conclusions drawn from that alone would be pretty narrow (I'm not analysing GT or Super in this particular post).

So... now for headcanons and my personal ideas!! Everything from here is from my own writing of post-canon DB, so fair warning if you're only interested in the analysis.

I really, really like teen Goten being bisexual and aroace-spec.

[Image ID: A digital sketch of teen Goten in a gi holding up a peace sign and saying "i love bisexuality", with a bisexual flag in the background, and another tiny doodle of him in the corner. End ID.]

(little scribble from 2023 I didn't post)

Goten is the first one in his family to actually identify as queer. This brings up a whole BUNCH of feelings when he comes out. Goku wouldn't care at all, of course. Chi-Chi definitely isn't intolerant but has some traditional ideas. Her entire marriage is built on heterosexual gender roles. She has a lot of talks with her son which lead her to consider a lot of things differently.

Goku never identifies as aroace because that doesn't matter to him but the idea helps him understand that the way he sees romance may not be the same for everyone. He and Chi-Chi talk a bit and while I think their relationship is definitely better after the Buu Saga in general due to their age and a lack of stressors, this really helps them come to terms with the unexamined issues in their relationship and how they've always had different expectations.

(Young queer people helping their older relatives understand things about themselves is so, so important to me and I just want to see it more. On a personal level, my sister and me coming out helped my mum realise she's bisexual.)

Anyway, my interpretation of teen Goten does flirt around a lot but he rarely has serious relationships and the people he dates always just end up as friends. This is because he's aroace-spec, and also because he can't conceive of anyone in his life being more important than Trunks.

In the end, as an adult he has a semi-romantic bestfriendship-based queerplatonic-y thing with Trunks. No particular labels. They just live together and are in multiple kinds of love!

(I hc Trunks as a trans man and gay but I will not go into that today because I will never shut up)

I think Gohan is definitely the first person Goten comes out to, though. After Gohan moves out, Goten has a habit of just appearing on his roof to talk with him, and this happens during one such talk.

[Image ID: A digital sketch of Goten and Gohan sitting on a roof under a night sky. End ID.]

(an unfinished sketch also from 2023)

And, to circle back to the Autism! During one of these talks, Gohan also tells Goten that he's been doing a lot of introspection/research and thinks he's autistic (and their dad is likely autistic...). And so the family are able to put a name on that certain thing that seems to set them apart from others.

(Last personal anecdote: I got my autism diagnosis right around the time my dad started to realise he is autistic too, as runs in his side of the family.)

Anyway! I could go on and on but this headcanons segment is already too long so I'll save it for other posts.

If you made it through this monster of a post, thank you!!! I hope you found something that rings true for you.

AROACE AUTISTIC GOKU FOREVER!!!!! <3

[superfam]

I haven't really shared my thoughts on My Adventures with Superman so far in detail but they've been broadly positive! The strongest part of the show is definitely the characterisation -- Lois, Clark, and Jimmy all feel perfect. Some of their dynamics and interactions are different compared to usual Superman continuities but it all works in the specific context the show set up (being interns/rookie journalists who join TDP at around the same time, and Clark and Jimmy being college friends).

The weakest part of the show imo is some of the designs and the general kind of broad sci-fi reinterpretation of some of the villains. For some it works but for others I really wish they had kept more classic elements of the characters or had gone a bit further with their reinterpretation and really made them interesting in the new contexts.

This is about as much as I can say vaguely so:

Spoilers up to episode 7 under cut!

I didn't really like how they did Silver Banshee in particular -- Siobhan's design feels pretty lame in comparison to her in the comics and the reinterpretation of her powers fell flat for me. I also really didn't understand why they associated her with Interpol, or even where they're going with Intergang in general -- are we going to have a connection with Apokolips?

To expand on the Lois, Clark, Jimmy dynamics: there was a lot of backlash to how Lois responded to learning that Clark is Superman and I could definitely see it being informed by misogyny which is unfortunately unsurprising. The first episode of the show literally sets up the foundation of their relationship as the truth -- it would make less sense for Lois not to be upset. As expanded on in the next episodes, the bit I really liked in particular was how Lois seemed to be unsure of how much Clark had been lying to her regarding his persona and their relationship. The way it was written felt pretty natural and true to the core of both Lois and Clark. What really cinched it for me is Clark confessing that he didn't want to tell Jimmy and Lois because he didn't want them to see him as different, like, that's it, that's exactly what I'm looking for.

I definitely wouldn't have put the reveal so early in the series but it works for what it is! And I'm excited to see a dynamic of Lois and Jimmy helping Clark, just new to being Superman, discover more about his heritage/powers/identity, I don't think I've ever really seen it before and it has loads of potential.

One last thing I wanted to share my thoughts on is that I was pretty disappointed with how Episode 7 ended. I thought we were past Evil Superman by now but I guess not. I really don't want to do an Injustice lmao. I hope this plot point gets resolved speedily because it's just kind of nothing to me

Once again, overall I really like the series so far and I'm excited to keep watching :)

[thebabygronckle]

hey so i Fully Believe that telemachus was not afraid of odysseus in Hold Them Down

people may have told him stories of Odysseus, King of Ithaca, Athena's chosen Champion, Hero of Troy

but mama's boy telemachus sat by her feet as she wove tapestry after tapestry; and penelope told her little wolf stories of his father

how they met, how he tripped over himself to woo her, how he cried his eyes out when penelope became pregnant, how telemachus wouldn't sleep in his cot as a baby because he was so used to being in his father's arms because odysseus would not put him down; and yes, how viciously he defended their family when the atrides came to retrieve him for the war

telemachus? the child of the Unhinged Power Couple? who knew very well how horrible those suitors were, how they treated him and spoke of his mother?

took one look at his dad viciously protecting their home, their family, and thought he was the coolest, strongest person ever (after mom ofc)

[mythdr]

if you follow me and do not want to see infinite wealth spoilers (for the full game) pls filter out #infinite wealth spoilers

i rly want to talk abt this game but after my own intense campaign to avoid spoilers for it i would hate to ruin it for anyone else

[solchariot]

the horse and the infant except its hermes and apollo

[ovenproofowl]

i'm dying over that reveal. truly. truly. because on paper, the concept that ruby's mother was just an ordinary person and what made her so special was this belief everyone had feeding into her own mythology, creating something larger than life, is actually pretty cool. and, yeah, from wild blue yonder we know the doctor absolutely handed the power of suggestion over to an unknown entity that made it something tangible.. so it works.

sort of

but like. that 15 year old girl decided to drop her baby off at a church in the middle of the night in the most ostentatious, medieval looking cloak and then proceed to point mencingly at the road sign on the off chance the security camera would pick her up and that would somehow give someone the idea to name her daughter after said road sign??

i'm just saying... if that's the way you handle giving your baby up for adoption then there is absolutely nothing ordinary about you

[blackknight-kai]

Had one of those thoughts today about Wukong (Destined One too).

You’d be all over him right? Not meaning sexually, but you’d be sooooo happy to know how soft his fur feels and how freaking warm he is and nice it is to be cuddled in his arms and rub your cheek on his furry self. He’s just so NICE to touch.

At first he’d be a bit difficult about it as much as it boosts his ego, because he wouldn’t be used to it. But then he slowly falls in love with it and is addicted to having you close to him and petting through his fur or scratching him a little as you guys fall asleep or are resting.

But you’ve made a fatal mistake. As the nights get warmer and don’t cool off you’re now plastered to a fucking living furnace and you’re sweating and his fur is sticking to you uncomfortably. Sleep is NOT coming easy to you.

So you roll out of his arms or push him away because ugh it’s too damn hot! And you’re irritable because you feel sticky and gross.

He’d be so fucking offended.

Guarantee his first thought is “Excuse the fuck out of me? What do you think you’re doing?”

Because he is a KING! And you have shown him the best most addicting thing on this planet and you’re just taking it away from him? Absolutely not.

Be prepared for struggle cuddles.

Destined One would be similar but less vocal about it. I feel like he’d glower at you from the spot you’d left him before huffing petulantly and just dragging you back, locking his arms, legs, and tail around you like a VICE. You aren’t going anywhere.

[zu-is-here]

The Frog Princess ✧ Your Culture Day

Dream & Nightmare by jokublog

Cross from xtaleunderverse by jakei95

[sanska]

Ariadne explaining how to navigate the labyrinth (and after) to Theseus. It’s important, she’s committing treason for you Theseus, don’t look at her like that.

[doodlerose]

[dodofoge]

The first snow fall❄️✨

[autisticgoten]

daima spoilers 👍

SSJ4 baby Goku admittedly rules and it is very cool to see SSJ4 becoming 'canon'...

However I am kinda disappointed in the impetus for his transformation -- no real emotional stakes. :')

Which is admittedly the status quo for Daima so. The whole show has been very fun but it's definitely nowhere near the level of DB(Z) at its peak, imo for that reason in particular.

And then SSJ4 doesn't even seem too powerful, which makes sense I guess considering Baby Mode but it really takes any wind out of the show's sails tbh

Guessing that Glorio will betray Arinsu and wish everyone back to being adults and adult SSJ4 Goku will defeat Gomah, so hopefully that will be more fun.

With Red Porunga (I was hoping for a new dragon but he's pretty cool) alongside SSJ4 this ep really felt like a GT homage which is nice!

Honestly though, despite its flaws GT definitely had more powerful emotional moments than Daima... I don't think GT is better but they def have their own strengths and weaknesses

[superfam]

okay i watched the first two eps of My Adventures with Superman. not the most mindblowing take on Superman and it had some stuff i didn't love but overall i definitely enjoyed it and i'm glad it exists

more thoughts to come lmao

[iknewhimwellhoratio]

rip Narcissus, you would have loved flexing in the mirror at the gym

[mythdr]

hi i have a dragon ball sideblog now @autisticgoten , if db is the reason you follow me for some reason feel free to go there instead LMAO

[sylusvrse]

ahh… self destructive, slightly evil raf with severe control issues… thinking thinking thinking. personally, i don’t find this attractive. but, it makes for an incredibly complex, multifaceted character. i love how it adds more depth to his usually sulky, passionate, cute side that we usually see.

as i said in my last lil rant, he is all consuming. he needs your full devotion, your full attention, to feel complete. otherwise, it doesn’t count.

this is even seen in the nightly stroll story in which he infers that human promises are less genuine than how his people do it. he needs to hear it come from your mouth. he needs to hear you promise that you aren’t leaving.

seeing him basically drown us in the forgotten sea myth solidifies his need for control and how he enjoys having that power over us.

“tis not worship that i desire. from the depths of your very soul, i seek only the purest devotion.”

he holds our life in his hands in that moment and i know for a fact he’s gettin’ a real kick out of it.

god, he has issues and it’s great for lil ol’ writer me ( ´ཀ` ) this is canon sorry. i love/hate an evil man. he’s so. lovely. it’s making me scream. as your biggest fan, rafayel, you are a sick fucking man. i love it!!!

@/LumiGwyn on twt… thank you for putting these ideas into perspective for me… rafayel is such a character.