#mucia tertia

[garland-on-thy-brow]

Mucia Tertia and Cornelia Metella should roleplay Clytemnestra and Cassandra except they axe people together.

[duxfemina]

So do y'all wanna see my mental fan cast for the Pompeians as I write my books? Because that's what I feel like sharing tonight

Daddy Pompey aka Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus just with more auburn hued hair because we all know Pompeius has that ginger blond Alexander vibe going but like Lee Pace has the PERFECT chin and mouth to be Pompeius. Go look at Pompey's statues and imagine him as a younger man and you'll see it

Mucia Tertia mother of all three of Pompeius' children and such a force that not only did she raise them mostly by herself while he was at war but when her son is warring with the triumvirate they send her to talk with Sextus. She has the tragedy of outliving her ex-husband and her two sons. (Yes she's ginger too because I know my genetics and gotta keep that ginger blood strong so Pompeia can look just like grandad for plot purposes)

Sextus Pompeius Magnus Pius the sexy pirate king of Sicily. I will admit that this is mainly inspired by Hayden as RotS Anakin having the right color of hair and also the youthfulness. Sextus was stupidly young when he started kicking ass, just like his dad. Unfortunately for world history he lived an even shorter amount of time than his dad and was dead by 32 much like his dad's honorific namesake Alexander the Great

Fatherless by age six I have a whole story in my head that I've invented for Pompeia Magna daughter of Sextus and believe me it's not cheerful because what is in the Roman world. But she does have one true friend and he happens to be someone who is the most ride or die guy in Rome and will one day be the most powerful man in the empire

Tiberius Claudius Nero who has known Pompeia since they were toddlers together on Sicily when her father Sextus gave his parents refuge from Augustus' proscriptions. Yes Tiberius was a hottie. Fight me on this. Plus Cavill fits the Tiberius mould in the sense that everyone sees big hunky warrior but at heart they're just an absolute nerd. How Cavill is about video games would be Tiberius with Homer or something

[catilinas]

do you think lucius licinius crassus and either publius mucius scaevola cos133 or quintus mucius scaevola pontifex cos95 or quintus mucius scaevola augur cos117 or maybe all of them explored each others bodies

[sextuspompey]

connected to the daddy issues poll, some weeks ago i got really into finding out who mucia tertia's mother was (because as it turns out wikipedia treats masters of rome as a credible source) and without going into details, what we do know is that she was related to cato's family according to plutarch and that she may have also been the claudii's mother. and like. that theory is difficult to confirm but i'm interested in it because it makes pompey's marriage plans for his son (first with cato's daughter/niece, then with appius claudius's daughter) kind of Weird since pompey jr would already be connected to these people through his mother. it's as if pompey was attempting to recreate the family connections he lost in the divorce while erasing mucia's influence from the picture.

[catoswound]

pompey wifemaxxing... aemilia mucia tertia julia crassus caesar cornelia cicero etc...

[corydon8]

CLODIA

MATRONE IMPUDIQUE

Elle était fille d’Appius Claudius Pulcher, consul. À peine eut-elle quelques années, elle se distingua de ses frères et de ses sœurs par l’éclat flagrant de ses yeux. Tertia, son aînée, se maria de bonne heure ; la plus jeune céda entièrement à tous ses caprices. Ses frères, Appius et Caïus, étaient déjà avares des grenouilles en cuir et des chariots de noix qu’on leur faisait ; plus tard, ils furent avides de sesterces. Mais Clodius, beau et féminin, fut compagnon de ses sœurs. Clodia leur persuadait avec des regards ardents, de l’habiller avec une tunique à manche, de le coiffer d’un petit bonnet en fils d’or, et de le lier sous les seins avec une ceinture souple ; puis elles le couvraient d’un voile couleur de feu et le menaient dans les petites chambres où il se mettait au lit avec elles trois. Clodia fut sa préférée, mais il prit aussi la virginité de Tertia et de la cadette.

Quand Clodia eut dix-huit ans, son père mourut. Elle demeura dans la maison du mont Palatin. Appius, son frère, gouvernait le domaine, et Caïus se préparait à la vie publique. Clodius, toujours délicat et imberbe, couchait entre ses sœurs, qu’on nommait Clodia toutes deux. Elles commencèrent à aller secrètement aux bains avec lui. Elles donnaient un quart d’as aux grands esclaves qui les massaient, puis se le faisaient rendre. Clodius était traité comme ses sœurs, en leur présence. Tels furent leurs plaisirs avant le mariage.

La plus jeune épousa Lucullus, qui l’emmena en Asie, où il faisait la guerre à Mithridate. Clodia prit pour mari son cousin Metellus, honnête homme épais. Dans ces temps d’émeute, il eut un esprit conservateur et borné. Clodia ne pouvait supporter sa brutalité rustique. Elle rêvait déjà pour son cher Clodius des choses nouvelles. César commençait à s’emparer des esprits ; Clodia jugea qu’il fallait le défaire. Elle se fit amener Cicéron par Pomponius Atticus. Sa société était ricaneuse et galante. Auprès d’elle on trouvait Licinius Calvus, le jeune Curion, surnommé la « fillette », Sextius Clodius qui faisait ses courses, Egnatius et sa bande, Catullus de Vérone et Caelius Rufus, qui était amoureux d’elle. Metellus, pesamment assis, ne disait mot. On racontait les scandales sur César et Mamurra. Puis Metellus, nommé proconsul, partit pour la Gaule cisalpine. Clodia resta seule à Rome avec sa belle-sœur Mucia. Cicéron fut entièrement charmé par ses grands yeux flambants. Il songea qu’il pouvait répudier Terentia, sa femme, et supposa que Clodia quitterait Metellus. Mais Terentia découvrit tout et terrifia son mari. Cicéron, peureux, renonça à ses désirs. Terentia voulut davantage, et Cicéron dut rompre avec Clodius.

Le frère de Clodia s’occupait cependant. Il faisait l’amour à Pompéia, femme de César. La nuit de la fête de la Bonne Déesse, il ne devait y avoir que des femmes dans la maison de César, qui était préteur. Pompéia offrait seule le sacrifice. Clodius s’habilla, ainsi que sa sœur avait eu coutume de le déguiser, en joueuse de cithare, et entra chez Pompéia. Une esclave le reconnut. La mère de Pompéia donna l’alarme et le scandale fut public. Clodius voulut se défendre et jura qu’il était, pendant ce temps, dans la maison de Cicéron. Terentia obligea son mari à nier : Cicéron porta témoignage contre Clodius.

Dès lors Clodius fut perdu dans le parti noble. Sa sœur venait de passer la trentaine. Elle était plus ardente que jamais. Elle eut l’idée de faire adopter Clodius par un plébéien, afin qu’il pût devenir tribun du peuple. Metellus, qui était revenu, devina ses projets et se moqua d’elle. Dans ce temps, où elle n’avait plus Clodius entre ses bras, elle se laissa aimer par Catullus. Le mari Metellus leur semblait odieux. Sa femme résolut de s’en débarrasser. Un jour qu’il revenait du Sénat, lassé, elle lui présenta à boire. Metellus tomba mort dans l’atrium. Désormais Clodia était libre. Elle quitta la maison de son mari et rentra vite se cloîtrer avec Clodius sur le mont Palatin. Sa sœur s’enfuit de chez Lucullus et revint avec eux. Ils reprirent leur vie à trois et exercèrent leur haine.

D’abord Clodius, devenu plébéien, fut désigné comme tribun du peuple. Malgré sa grâce féminine, il avait la voix forte et mordante. Il obtint que Cicéron fût exilé ; fit raser sa maison devant ses propres yeux, et jura la ruine et la mort à tous ses amis. César était proconsul en Gaule et ne pouvait rien. Pourtant Cicéron gagna des influences par Pompée, et se fit rappeler l’année suivante. La fureur du jeune tribun fut extrême. Il s’attaqua violemment à Milon, ami de Cicéron, qui commençait à briguer le consulat. Aposté de nuit, il tenta de le tuer, renversant ses esclaves qui portaient des torches. La faveur populaire de Clodius diminuait. On chantait des refrains obscènes sur Clodius et Clodia. Cicéron les dénonça dans un discours violent : Clodia y était traitée de Médée et de Clytemnestre. La rage du frère et de la sœur finit par éclater. Clodius voulut incendier la maison de Milon, et des esclaves gardiens l’assommèrent dans les ténèbres.

Alors Clodia fut désespérée. Elle avait pris et rejeté Catullus, puis Caelius Rufus, puis Egnatius, dont les amis l’avaient menée dans les basses tavernes : mais elle n’aimait que son frère Clodius. C’est pour lui qu’elle avait empoisonné son mari. C’est pour lui qu’elle avait attiré et séduit des bandes d’incendiaires. Quand il fut mort, l’objet de sa vie lui manqua. Elle était encore belle et chaude. Elle avait une maison de campagne sur la route d’Ostie, des jardins près du Tibre et à Baïes. Elle s’y réfugia. Elle essaya de s’y distraire en y dansant lascivement avec des femmes. Ce ne fut pas suffisant. Son esprit était occupé par les stupres de Clodius, qu’elle voyait toujours imberbe et féminin. Elle se souvenait qu’il avait été pris jadis par des pirates de Cilicie, qui avaient usé de son tendre corps. Une certaine taverne lui revenait aussi à la mémoire, où elle était allée avec lui. Le fronton de la porte en était tout barbouillé de charbons, et les hommes qui y buvaient répandaient une odeur forte, et avaient la poitrine velue.

Rome l’attira donc de nouveau. Elle erra aux premières veilles dans les carrefours et les passages étroits. L’insolence éclatante de ses yeux était toujours semblable. Rien ne pouvait l’éteindre, et elle essaya tout, même de recevoir la pluie, et de coucher dans la boue. Elle alla des bains aux cellules de pierre ; les caves où les esclaves jouaient aux dés, les salles basses où s’enivraient les cuisiniers et les voituriers lui furent connues. Elle attendit des passants parmi les rues dallées. Elle périt vers le matin d’une nuit étouffante par un étrange retour d’une habitude qui avait été la sienne. Un ouvrier foulon l’avait payée d’un quart d’as ; il la guetta au crépuscule de l’aube dans l’allée, pour le lui reprendre, et l’étrangla. Puis il jeta son cadavre, les yeux grands ouverts, dans l’eau jaune du Tibre.

[duxfemina]

Absolutely this. It's why Rome and Domina irritate me in spite of the praise they get. We know people got assaulted but that wasn't the only thing that happened to people. We know women didn't have many rights, but that doesn't mean they weren't valued. There are several historical records of ancient Roman men valuing their wives ... The longest epitaph we have is literally just a guy singing his wife's praises at length and he paid somebody to chisel all them words in stone for him. Women were valued just not always in ways we recognized and yes much like today there were just some bad dudes. But the overused trope that all Roman soldiers do is r*pe people needs to die. Pompeius Magnus was so faithful to his wives that while he was married (to Mucia Tertia I think) he turned down a harem offered to him by an Eastern ruler. He also loved his wives so much that he was made fun of by his political rivals for being so enamoured with Julia Caesaris and then Cornelia after her. So the whole theme of Pompeius' marital life is one of loving his wives and practicing fidelity and he was dead before the BCs were even over

that post is giving me a lot of thoughts actually. i've thought a lot about writing historical fiction and what makes some historical fiction work better than others (at least in terms of capturing a period and feeling authentic to that period) and so much of it really is capturing historical ways of thinking.

some ancient rome historical fiction i've read makes the characters' values too modern in terms of like, making them share values and opinions that really only modern people do (ie like making them protofeminists and so on) but a lot of it also fails in that it kind of... makes the characters horrible but for no reason, essentially? like, including a ton of violence and sexual assault and so on because the author knows these things happened back then, but they don't really know why, or how people in the period conceptualized these things.

the best historical fiction reconstructs the thought patterns, the frameworks of belief, the values of people, not necessarily just the thoughts and opinions themselves. especially in such a distant time period like ancient rome, there are so many differences between their world and ours that those patterns need a lot of reconstruction and explanation, and so it's very important to explain and show the cultural frameworks which produce these thought patterns and beliefs. so then, when your character does something horrible or believes something unpalatable to a modern audience, they will actually understand why, and where this fits into the society they lived in. so, they learn something both about the character and about the period, ideally.

[aristocraticvision]

Chapter 50: A Celebration

As evening fell, a calm settled over the city that seemed almost unsettling after the noise and pageantry of the day. The boni had retired to Catulus’ house on the Palatine to lick their collective wounds and wish pestilence upon the people, their tribunes, and – especially – Pompey and Cicero – while Crassus sulked in darkness at his townhouse.

As for us, we left the forum in jubilant spirits and headed directly to Pompey’s brightly colored mansion on the Esquiline to celebrate his victory and await his triumphant return to Rome.

Hosted by Pompey’s wife, Mucia Tertia, whom Magnus had left in Rome to manage his affairs and prepare for his return, the party included dozens of knights, tribunes, senators and other supporters intent on showing their allegiance to Rome’s most powerful general.

It was nearly midnight when the great man finally arrived, moving merrily through the room and clapping his guests heartily on their shoulders. Even I, a slave who had only once been introduced to Pompey, merited a good-natured smile.

All around, the senators cried out for a speech from their leader, to which Cicero exclaimed – perhaps a bit too loudly: “He cannot speak now, for I have not yet written what he should say!”

The room fell silent. Realizing he may have gone too far, Cicero – who was rarely at a loss for words – searched for an appropriate recovery as a shadow crossed Pompey’s face.

Surprisingly, it was Caesar who came to Cicero’s rescue, suddenly howling with laughter. Finally, Pompey grinned and joined in, wagging his finger at Cicero in mock reproach.

The atmosphere then relaxed into the joshing humor of an officer’s mess, and the celebration continued through the early morning.

The next day, despite a severe lack of sleep among us all, Pompey – in full armor – stepped out onto the rostra in the Forum Romanum as the bright sun blazed above. Behind him, those of us responsible for Pompey’s command basked in the adoration of a grateful Rome.

“I now don that uniform so dear and familiar to me – the sacred red cloak of a Roman commander. It shall only leave my shoulders when victory is mine – or when my eyes are closed in death – but not before. Farewell!”

The crowd roared as Pompey turned and stepped down from the rostra to mount the great white horse waiting for him there. Waving, he rode at a gallop through the parting crowd and out of sight, his armor sparkling in the morning sun.

Little could we know that we would not lay eyes on Pompey again in Rome for the next six years.

BEGINNING | PREV | NEXT

[garland-on-thy-brow]

Thoughts about the Tertullae.

(1) Crassus’ wife may be mentioned by name only in the list of Caesar’s married lovers (Suet. Jul. 50).

“That he was unbridled and extravagant in his intrigues is the general opinion, and that he seduced many illustrious women, among them Postumia, wife of Servius Sulpicius, Lollia, wife of Aulus Gabinius, Tertulla, wife of Marcus Crassus, and even Gnaeus Pompey's wife Mucia. […] During the civil war, too, besides other presents, he knocked down some fine estates to [Servilia] in a public auction at a nominal price, and when some expressed their surprise at the low figure, Cicero wittily remarked: "It's a better bargain than you think, for there is a third off."​ And in fact it was thought that Servilia was prostituting her own daughter Tertia to Caesar."

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Julius*.html

(2) Two Tertullae in one paragraph! Three, actually, if we count Mucia Tertia right next to Crassus’ wife (I hope they fucked). Why a cute little nickname for Crassus’ wife when everyone else on the same list is mentioned by nomen?

(3) An oddly similar paragraph with an oddly similar list of the younger Caesar’s (Octavian’s) lovers also appears in Suetonius (Aug. 69). It also includes a TERTULLA. The list originates from Antony.

“That he was given to adultery not even his friends deny, although it is true that they excuse it as committed not from passion but from policy, the more readily to get track of his adversaries' designs through the women of their households. […] Antony also writes to Augustus himself in the following familiar terms, when he had not yet wholly broken with him privately or publicly: "What has made such a change in you? Because I lie with the queen? She is my wife. Am I just beginning this, or was it nine years ago? What then of you — do you lie only with Drusilla? Good luck to you if when you read this letter you have not been with Tertulla or Terentilla or Rufilla or Salvia Titisenia, or all of them.”

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Augustus*.html

(4) Now, this Tertulla is thought to be Cassius’ widow - who was definitely referred to as Tertulla, a nickname made famous at the very least by Cicero’s letters. Antony uses diminutives for most ladies on the list (Terentilla, Rufilla), warranted by his general jocular tone, so “Tertulla” is not out of place here as she is in the first list.

(5) There is at least one instance of “Crassus” likely turning into “Cassius” by means of textual corruption. Haunted? Yes. [The instance I mean is Cicero’s letter featuring “Cassius’ sister Licinia” – who actually is likely to be Crassus’ granddaughter, sister of the consul 30 bce.]

(6) So according to Suetonius, two consecutive Caesars each allegedly slept with a Tertulla, whose husbands’ names just happen to be similar.

(7) This makes me suspect that Tertulla turned from “wife of Cassius” into “wife of Crassus” in one of Suetonius’ sources, and so he noted her down in the Life of Julius with Mucia, Postumia, and Lollia – not realizing this is the same Tertia whom he talks about later in the same paragraph.

Disclaimer, this of course does not rule out that Crassus' wife did sleep with Caesar, but was not named Tertulla. Or that she was a Tertia but did not sleep with Caesar. Or that Suetonius actually got it right. I just think there are reasons to doubt it.

[xxmarvelouslifexx]

Thank you jlrrt for the additions. So many horrid men to look into. Great point about the lack of women, I meant to add a tag saying they deserved their own list. But shout out to Cornelia Cinnae, Pompeia, Calpurnia, Servilia Caepionis, Tertulla, Mucia Tertia, and probably many more.

Sulla's harem gets a lot of attention (rightfully so) But what about Caesar's harem?

Marcus Antonius (whore)

Gaius Trebonius (dog-coded)

Marcus Aemilius Lepidus (dog)

Marcus Junius Brutus (daddy issues)

Gaius Octavius (granddaddy issues, allegedly)

Publius Cornelius Dolabella (not even sure what was going on here tbh)

[sextuspompey]

on the topic of genealogy circles. the pompey & mucia tertia hell.

on the one hand, pompey marries aemilia, daughter of scaurus and caecilia, this caecilia being sulla's new wife who will bear him the twins faustus and fausta. faustus will marry pompeia magna, making pompey the (ex) son in law of his daughter's (dead) mother in law.

on the other hand, pompey marries mucia tertia with whom he'll have pompeia, gnaeus and sextus. he divorces her and mucia goes on to marry scaurus jr (this marriage potentially upsets pompey to the point where he actively contributes to sending scaurus jr into exile), making her the wife of pompey's (ex) brother in law.

which makes faustus, being the half-brother of aemilia and scaurus jr, both the son in law of pompey and mucia and a (half) brother in law (or ex half for pompey) to both of them, as well as gnaeus and sextus's brother in law.

finally scaurus jr jr (son of pompey's ex wife and pompey's ex brother in law) goes on to be the last person to desert his half brother sextus in the sicilian war and betrays him to antony's generals, thus causing sextus to be executed. he will himself be saved from execution at octavian's hands by the intervention of mucia, the mother he shared with sextus.

[garland-on-thy-brow]

And yet Cato was almost the only person among those bound for Rome to whom Pompey commended his wife and children, although it is true that they were relatives of his. (Plut. Cat. Mi. 14)

We don’t know how Cato is related to Mucia? Or is it “everyone but me knows”? All connections I can think of are quite far-fetched.

[catilinas]

so pompey marries aemilia scaura in 79, she dies, he marries mucia tertia, divorces her, mucia then marries m. aemilius scaurus i.e. her ex husband’s dead wife’s brother, who could be considered her brother-in-law???

[sextuspompey]

amazing

[sextuspompey]

the level of pettiness is through the roof on this one. YOU divorced her