#msatd s5

[mewmckenna]

Miss Scarlet

So, I am sure by now that everyone has seen the news that Stuart Martin will not be returning for season five of MSATD. I know a lot of people are super disappointed that William is leaving the show, as am I, but honestly, I kind of feel that this could be a new opportunity for the show. It is obvious that the writers did not know that Stuart was leaving the show for good as they were writing last season, but with him being gone it makes the ending of season four almost better to me. Eliza is no longer working for Patrick, and while he is coming back and will likely not end up in prison (though who knows), I imagine Eliza won't go back to Nash & Sons. She was finally able to change the sign above her door to say "Miss Eliza Scarlet," something that seemed impossible to her in earlier seasons. Also, while Eliza is certainly fine at working with a few friends, she will never be the kind of manager that Patrick is as she's simply too independent and stubborn. It is for the better that she is at her own agency, able to do her thing without too much interference.

In a roundabout way, I think William's departure kind of brings everything together. Eliza is truly alone, without William or her father. Everything that she does now will be entirely up to her; she has no father or childhood friend to fall back on. I think that this, plus the name of the show changing to be just Miss Scarlet is a kind of bookend to how the show began. The producers and writers of the show have already hinted at this being the start of a shift in direction, and while the story was largely focused on the romance between William and Eliza during the first four seasons, I think that this gives the creators an opportunity to do more. By calling the show Miss Scarlet and the Duke, they were limited in what they could write. I know I have seen many people comment on how the show seemed to drag because of the drawn out will-they-won't-they between Eliza and William, something I noticed myself after the first couple of seasons.

Now, since it is apparent that they are no longer going to be the endgame couple, there is more freedom in the storyline and what the writers can do with the personal relationships. At the end of season four, it felt to me as though the show had sort of written itself into a corner concerning the title relationship of the show. In another recent post I even commented on how the relationship between the two would remain unchanged unless some drastic action by one of them, probably William. Obviously, I did not know that Stuart was planning on leaving the show, but I think my criticism still stands. Both Eliza and William cared too much about their jobs to ever be able to be truly happy together as we last saw them.

This is exactly the reason that William leaves for New York, and it could be very possibly that the way that they write him out of the show is with him deciding to stay in America. William had been considering quitting his position at Scotland Yard, but this was due to the conditions of his job at the time and how overworked he was, plus the draw of finally being able to be with Eliza. It feels very possible to me that he might change his mind upon entering a less stressful environment and decide not to come back to London. After all, William went months, if not a year, suspecting or knowing Eliza's feelings towards him and vice versa but he was still unwilling to give up his career to be with her. I don't fault William for this as Eliza does the same thing, but it does make his staying in New York a bit more believable.

So even though the show is not going to go in the direction we have all thought it would, I think that this could be a good thing. While we won't know if that is the case for likely a year, I am not going to call any judgements until season five is released. Though I think that the show has definitely benefitted from William's presence, it has always been about Eliza first and foremost and so I am excited to see what she gets up to next.

(Also here's to hoping that Ansu Kabia is included in later casting announcements as we have gone far too long without Moses)

[servants-hall]

First BTS from Miss Scarlet & The Duke S5?

With MSATD S4 premiering in just a few weeks time, we might already have a clue to it's renewal for a fifth season!

peris.costumes ✔️Costume designer Momirka Bailovic is immersed in the creation of the costumes for the next season of #MissScarletandtheDuke at Peris Costumes . ✔️Momirka 👠👗has looked for jewellery complements and accessories in our Jewel House 💍👑 with the help of our colleague Noelia who showed her the latest items we have acquired for our stock. @missscarletandtheduke @missscarletandtheduke.br @samomoma #costume #jewelhouse #design #costumerental #perioddrama @kate_phillipsss

[mirai-desu]

I agree with this article 💯, as Rachael New et al. are now undermining the entire premise of the show, and I want to highlight and comment on a few parts of this excellent take:

We're losing a central character whose emotional journey we were invested in and a vital piece of the primary reason we were told to watch Miss Scarlet & The Duke in the first place. Whether you want William and Eliza together romantically or not, the show was always predicated on and grounded in their relationship, and to pretend otherwise is to deny the original premise behind its very existence.

Exactly this. "Miss Scarlet" might be considered more lead than him, but he was still a titular character, and we were invested in his journey as well as hers. Their bond is the foundation of the show. The teenage flashback episode in particular proves this to us--and proves William’s importance to the greater story. But even before that, it's been there all along:

And, honestly, the official description of Season 1 is blunt about what’s happening: “Eliza and The Duke strike up a mismatched, fiery relationship that will crackle and smolder with sexual tension as they team up to solve crime in the murkiest depths of 1880’s London.” So let’s say it as plainly as possible: No one planned to tune in to this new program simply because it promised a crime drama in period dress. The series’ hook, apparent from its first marketing materials, was this unique relationship at the show’s center. The real story of Miss Scarlet and the Duke has always been just that: Miss Scarlet and the Duke. 

While RN et al. can dig in their heels and claim that the story has always just been Eliza's, but we know better than that. Since Day 1, the promotion and the interviews all catered towards the UST. As time wore on, Stuart really began championing the romance in earnest, and it was a logical next step. He was not wrong to do so. What was actually happening on screen was heading that way, as part of a beautiful slow burn.

After literally years of dancing around the rarely mentioned but blatantly obvious feelings between them, this season finally pushed their relationship forward. We got a whole flashback episode dedicated to how they first met! There was a kiss! William said the L-word! The genuine forward relationship progress that so many fans had been waiting for was finally happening! [...] What makes this even more painful is that Season 4 finally felt like the show was moving forward, at last, at least where its central relationship was concerned. Yes, William left, but it was for a good reason: to give Eliza the space and opportunity to decide what she wanted from their relationship on her own terms. (That, as the kids say, is growth.) But if he was never coming back, why bother with most of Season 4?

While we know that in part we got some of the romantic moments in S4 due to Stuart's requests, but I think ultimately, RN's reluctance to move things forward with Wiliza is what put Stuart at odds with her, as she likely did not take too kindly to him suggesting his own input (even when he became an EP) and perhaps felt like he was telling her what to do with her own show. And her goal is to keep it stuck in a cynical pattern; one that William wanted to resolve, and one that Stuart had to remove himself from, because RN favors rinsing and repeating, versus actually diving deep into longer character arcs. That's how she think she can keep the "longevity" of her show, or so she thinks.

Because look, I love Eliza. But I realize it's really because of the potential of who she could be. William never returning prolongs her characterization being stuck. She was supposed to spend the year thinking about what changes she needs to make so they could be together. If he never returns, then what's the point? The catalyst for change is gone. William staying on the show should have actually forced her to grow, not kept her stuck. Removing William entirely reinforces the patterns versus ending the cycle. Especially if he is just replaced with a new love interest, who just flirts with Eliza to keep a "will they / won't they angle" that's never moved forward.

Any writer worth their salt would have Eliza grow in interim and have major development upon William return. But that would end the "put them together / pull them apart." Which is not what RN wants, hence why she refused to put them together. She thinks these patterns are what maintains the show vs spending time on actual storytelling. And this is also why I cannot believe the party line, and truly feel that we haven't gotten the whole truth on why Stuart's exiting.

Thinking about the scenes in the flashback episode of William and Henry, and how important they were, it makes me sad that apparently in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter to RN. And it's sad they keep trying to paint it that the two most important people to Eliza were “overshadowing” her all the time.

I fear is that this new retooled version will just ignore and erase the importance that William has had on her life. At least in the S4 finale we saw how his words still affected her, even when he wasn’t there, encouraging to reopen her own agency. But I can’t see them continuing that, when clearly they want to reboot the show without him.

I had been working on my post S4 fanfic before the news of Stuart's departure hit, and I looked back on how I was developing Eliza from where we left off and how I wrote William's return. When I was outlining it, I was thinking about how RN only just barely has touched the surface of Eliza's psyche. I wrote her as torn up about William leaving--and how he left not long after he almost died. Eliza should have grown from the trauma of almost losing him and we seemed to be on that path in the show, with her at his bedside, and having him recover in her home. We could have dived into how the lost of her mother at a young age affected her, and how Henry's death still was painful. At her father's funeral (which mind you, is in the very first episode) she talked about being alone, and William wiped her tears away. And now... Eliza has lost another person close to her. Literally, it's not William's existence stopping Eliza's development--it's RN's lack of talent, I'm afraid. And who knows, maybe that statement that she cannot be developed while he is around is just a cover to explain his exit, as it's clearly not an actual reason.

Likewise with William, in addition to dealing with his feelings for Eliza, there's so much they could done with him leaving Scotland Yard and the trauma he survived. He didn't have to have PTSD, but he's already had a pretty traumatic life and survived so much (which again… why show all that in the flashback if they were ditching his character - Ben, not RN, wrote that episode so maybe that was a sign). But he held onto the identity of being part of the police, because of how he came get that job (i.e. Henry) and get off the street, and they could have explored what would it be like to shift away from that identity. There just was so much potential and so much richness that could have been written, for a man who came from nothing, but wanted to belong, and wanted to be loved. And maybe Stuart was just so very aware that the show was refusing it take it there. He took William as far he was allowed to, but not as far as the character could have gone, if written by the right people.

Frankly, both William and Eliza deserve better. Stuart deserves better, and we the Wiliza fans do as well. Ultimately, regardless of what (and at what point in time it) really went down between Stuart and RN, the series should have ended with S4, but with a happy conclusion. All signs pointed to William joining Eliza at her detective agency, but now we just have to imagine them there, working together as equals and in love.

[blacklister214]

Do you think that if there’s a S5 of MSATD that they won’t have Nash for that whole or majority of that season since he’s supposed to be in jail? Thought they would still have them working together, but then that last part in the finale happened so…?

I think we will see Eliza visiting Patrick while he awaits trial and talking to him about her cases, which he will eventually realize she doesn't actually need his help with, but instead is using it as an excuse to come visit him. I think William will also return before the trial and we'll get some scenes with Patrick and William.

I think William will propose and Eliza accept prior to the trial, but Eliza's actions to secure Patrick release will cause a them to break the engagement. I think she will demonstrate once again a disregard for the law and show she is willing to risk her license to save Patrick. It's going to bring home how important Patrick became to her and William does not play second fiddle.

I also think prejudice in Scotland Yard will also play a role this season, particularly with Patrick's trial and re-opening of Michael's murder. The poor family who hired Michael was Irish, as obviously was Michael and neither of those case were closed. I don't think it's a coincidence, especially since Felix Scott gave an interview talking about how the Irish were treated in London during Victorian times. We've had small sniffs of it with Patrick's comment about having "faced prejudice" way back in 2x04 and the interview in 3x06. I think this matters to the love triangle, because William realizes he doesn't want to leave the police. He's needed to stay an fight the good fight.

I think we will conclude with Patrick joining Eliza's firm.

[mellow-plum]

What in the world? 😭😭😭 At this point we might as well stop watching

We’re headed back to Victorian London as Kate Phillips returns as Eliza Scarlet for a 5th season of investigations. However, Stuart Martin, aka The Duke, will not return. More about the series, now called Miss Scarlet, and a note from Stuart Martin [at the link]

[mirai-desu]

Obviously, I'm a huge fan of William, but I'm of Eliza too, and tbh, I get defensive of her as well, because lbr, the main issue with her characterization in S4 is that it's all over the place in ways that just was NOT organic. And frankly, I feel like it's weird to even be caught up in blaming her, when what all happened was stuff going on behind the scenes of the show.

But regardless if we take all of that mess at face value or not… the Eliza who sat by William's bedside, the Eliza who took him into her home, the Eliza who wanted to take him out to dinner because he was feeling better… wouldn’t have forgotten about it. She would have been weighing work against her personal life and realizing what was important. That’s the character growth and development we are all waiting for. But then she got jerked around by bad writing. It's that RN needed to give her consistent characterization. They needed to keep with the path from 4x03. As frustrating as plays out on screen, I blame RN, not Eliza. It’s almost like she was writing her as two separate people. It wasn't like it was trying to show inner conflict; it was just plain shoddy writing, and Eliza's a fictional character. The blame lies with the writer.

I cannot blame a fictional character when it’s clearly the writer just mangling the characterization. We know Eliza loves William. And hell, I’ll branch out and say that large chunks of 4x04, she’s out of character. She’s speechless? She doesn’t argue that he’s too unwell to be making these life-changing decisions? But like other storylines in this show, RN has had the characters do things that don’t feel right to me based on their previous actions in order to reach a plot point that she wants to get to (e.g. the whole Arabella arc).

I said this back when the news broke, but what’s happened is a disservice to both William and Eliza as characters. With him it’s the huge lie that they couldn’t do anything further with his character, and with her that they thought sacrificing her character development and writing her so inconsistently is the path to the show’s ~longevity~. I’ve said some nasty things about other showrunners in the past, but to be honest to have someone who created these characters treat them like this is taking the cake.

And it all really sucks because I do love Eliza as character and I was rooting so hard for her to give into, and open up to, her to feelings for William. And for her to realize that there's more to life than just work. For her to find the third way, and have it all, with both the man loves and the career she desires. But RN clearly had other plans. And I have no desire to see Eliza's character mangled further.

(also again I don't take certain things at face value so that's why I view this this way, but regardless, it's shit writing)

[mirai-desu]

You know, I am really proud of the vast majority of the fandom for rallying around Stuart and realizing that the blame does not lie with him. And it’s also comforting to know that practically everyone is reading between the lines and knows it’s not his fault even though he’s the one walking away from the show. The show and character he genuinely loved. I really hope that he can get on another period drama and play the romantic hero who gets the girl like he’s wanted. He deserves better.

[mirai-desu]

As a huge friends to lovers enjoyer… it makes me so sad that the message of MSATD became don’t ever fall in love with your best friend or it will ruin your friendship 🥴

Like, they had William fall in love with Eliza too deeply too fast for the pacing that what RN/TPTB wanted (their apparent opinion, not mine obviously), despite the fact they are the ones who wrote that pacing. Like the call is coming from inside the house babes--

But then William felt like he had to leave the whole ass country because he couldn’t be around her anymore (and mind you, while he was still recovering from being shot and being in a coma!!!) because he felt like she didn’t return the same feelings at the same level as him, and that fucking sucks so much ugh

Like no matter “the why” this all happened, that’s the ultimate message and it’s horrible and hurts and I hate that they have perpetuated this.

Especially when you SHOULD be friends with your significant other, no matter at what point you fall in love.

And yes, Eliza's characterization ended up being all over the place thanks to shoddy writing, but she DID love him back, RN just refused to let her voice it, because she though that would ruin the show. HA.

And if they were going for something like "well sometimes it doesn't work out" ... if the show is about their bond and everything they've said before, then why just not make it actually tragic and kill him off then??? So what, they just don't fight for each other??? make it make sense

anyway it really doesn't matter which way you slice, it this whole thing still just sucks

[and I needed to get this rant out of my drafts because they are going to start S5 promo soon and I simply want nothing to do with it at all]

[mirai-desu]

So I managed to read a bit more of the transcript of the podcast and like... first of all props to Stuart for being the fall guy, he really is too good of a man, and frankly deserves better. He was basically forced out, and he chose to leave because he knew that we weren't going to get what we wanted--and what he championed for himself. In fact, he had beg to get for us what we got in S4 as it was. Including the I love yous. And we only got it because he was leaving. I have no idea if RN always planned on never really getting them together (what, was the final scene going to just be them going to dinner again like the end of S1's finale?), or if she was pivoting to keeping them only as friends because apparently she has no real grasp on actual feminism, considering she seems to believe is that women should never have love or a life partner and was getting angry that fans for focusing on the relationship between... the two title characters.

On the MSATD News

I didn't have time to post a knee-jerk reaction (which those of you from the Downton days know I was apt to do - thank you to all my long term mutuals of my side blog for sticking with me through those days), as I saw the news as I was getting ready to head out for work and it's been… a bit of a day.

Suffice it to say… I am devastated. And my initial reaction was (well after cursing), that it should have ended with S4, but with a different (happier) conclusion. It's called Miss Scarlet AND THE DUKE for a reason. And after all that happened in S4… it really feels like… what was it all for?? Especially if they knew WHEN FILMING THIS?? "Goodbye for now" is NOT "goodbye forever." They really, really really fumbled this.

There's a lot of theories going around, and I will admit it's too hard for me to listen to Stuart's new interview, but going off what other's have said and the parts of the transcript I did manage to read… I just cannot feel like this was actually his decision unless there's something else going on with him (either in his personal life or maybe he has some secret role he's got, because supposedly he hasn't worked since he did ADR on S4). He's been the captain of the ship, and he has always been enthusiastic with discussing the show and had just great insight into playing William. It doesn't feel like he himself was ready to move onto other things (and that's not even how it's worded - some BS about how the show needed it him to be gone for ~longevity~ of the show), like I've seen with other actors are on shows (e.g. Dan Stevens). He still promoted S3 (which came out in the UK after they filmed S4), he still even promoted S4! He was an executive producer for S4!!! Nothing makes sense!

So if it's due to RN… why keep having the other characters say William was only going to be gone a year? Why bother to have the flashback? why bother to have him stay at at Eliza's to recover?? hell I'm surprised they just didn't keep in the coma then--

But really, why even bother to have Eliza write to him? Or have Ivy say what she said to her?? The time apart was supposed to be them looking at their options. They literally foreshadowed him joining Eliza at her agency upon his return. So… what happened?

If it was actually for personal reasons that Stuart left, he has a right to his privacy. But then they should have rewritten S4 to be the end then, since they knew all this time. I can't believe we are getting the full story on this, one way or the other. The more and more I think about it... I do think it was RN's doing though.

Just two nights ago I drafted up a whole meta extolling how one of the best things this show has done has been how they developed William and how he grew as a character. The progression he made as he not only accepted Eliza having a career but encouraging her. His mentorship of Fitzroy. How he came from nothing, from a teenager living on the streets, to become an inspector at Scotland Yard. But they have chosen to toss that all out the window.

Who knows, maybe S5 ends with Eliza deciding to go to New York. But it doesn't seem like they are handling this like Babington's absence in Sanditon. They will make Eliza quickly fall for someone else, and slap fans in the face who have been following their friends to lovers slow burn for five years (because we had to wait for S2 in the first place thanks to the pandemic). And what sucks is that we still got promo saying they are in love with each other. From Stuart, from Kate, from Rachael New herself. We have still gotten promo promoting the romance. Why not have them have a big fight then or something, idk. They gave us hope. And you know what Fellowes says about false hope.

So I'm just supposed to believe that William gives up on Eliza and doesn't return…? No, I cannot. As much as we hated the deaths on DA when they wrote out actors, at least those characters still died in love with their spouses. And while I'd still be foaming at the mouth in anger if they killed him off… yeah.

William's last lines of the show is a flashback including him saying "is it all worth it?" And the answer is… no it's not.

[mirai-desu]

On the MSATD News

I didn't have time to post a knee-jerk reaction (which those of you from the Downton days know I was apt to do - thank you to all my long term mutuals of my side blog for sticking with me through those days), as I saw the news as I was getting ready to head out for work and it's been… a bit of a day.

Suffice it to say… I am devastated. And my initial reaction was (well after cursing), that it should have ended with S4, but with a different (happier) conclusion. It's called Miss Scarlet AND THE DUKE for a reason. And after all that happened in S4… it really feels like… what was it all for?? Especially if they knew WHEN FILMING THIS?? "Goodbye for now" is NOT "goodbye forever." They really, really really fumbled this.

There's a lot of theories going around, and I will admit it's too hard for me to listen to Stuart's new interview, but going off what other's have said and the parts of the transcript I did manage to read… I just cannot feel like this was actually his decision unless there's something else going on with him (either in his personal life or maybe he has some secret role he's got, because supposedly he hasn't worked since he did ADR on S4). He's been the captain of the ship, and he has always been enthusiastic with discussing the show and had just great insight into playing William. It doesn't feel like he himself was ready to move onto other things (and that's not even how it's worded - some BS about how the show needed it him to be gone for ~longevity~ of the show), like I've seen with other actors are on shows (e.g. Dan Stevens). He still promoted S3 (which came out in the UK after they filmed S4), he still even promoted S4! He was an executive producer for S4!!! Nothing makes sense!

So if it's due to RN… why keep having the other characters say William was only going to be gone a year? Why bother to have the flashback? why bother to have him stay at at Eliza's to recover?? hell I'm surprised they just didn't keep in the coma then--

But really, why even bother to have Eliza write to him? Or have Ivy say what she said to her?? The time apart was supposed to be them looking at their options. They literally foreshadowed him joining Eliza at her agency upon his return. So… what happened?

If it was actually for personal reasons that Stuart left, he has a right to his privacy. But then they should have rewritten S4 to be the end then, since they knew all this time. I can't believe we are getting the full story on this, one way or the other. The more and more I think about it... I do think it was RN's doing though.

Just two nights ago I drafted up a whole meta extolling how one of the best things this show has done has been how they developed William and how he grew as a character. The progression he made as he not only accepted Eliza having a career but encouraging her. His mentorship of Fitzroy. How he came from nothing, from a teenager living on the streets, to become an inspector at Scotland Yard. But they have chosen to toss that all out the window.

Who knows, maybe S5 ends with Eliza deciding to go to New York. But it doesn't seem like they are handling this like Babington's absence in Sanditon. They will make Eliza quickly fall for someone else, and slap fans in the face who have been following their friends to lovers slow burn for five years (because we had to wait for S2 in the first place thanks to the pandemic). And what sucks is that we still got promo saying they are in love with each other. From Stuart, from Kate, from Rachael New herself. We have still gotten promo promoting the romance. Why not have them have a big fight then or something, idk. They gave us hope. And you know what Fellowes says about false hope.

So I'm just supposed to believe that William gives up on Eliza and doesn't return…? No, I cannot. As much as we hated the deaths on DA when they wrote out actors, at least those characters still died in love with their spouses. And while I'd still be foaming at the mouth in anger if they killed him off… yeah.

William's last lines of the show is a flashback including him saying "is it all worth it?" And the answer is… no it's not.