#ml derision salt

[howhow326]

"Kim was kind of a jerk in season one"

And

"Derision assasinated Kim's character"

Are two statements that can and should coexist. Yes, season one had hints that Kim was a sort of secondary antagonist (the origins episode where he gets Ivan akumatized, that one episode where he gets Alya's dad akumatized due to his idiot jock behavior, his idiot jock behavior, the fact that he had a crush on Chloe which apparently is grounds for being a bad person in Astrucs eyes) but most of those traits disappeared after Dark Cupid. Season two onwards, Kim hates Chloe just as much as the other good guys (which is grounds for being a good person in Astrucs eyes) and dosen't really cause akumas anymore. Season 3 onwards, Kim is established as a pure good himbo that Master Fu likes enough to personally give him a miraculous (something he only did with the main characters of the show). Season 1 existed, but it dosen't invalidate evey season after itself.

"Marinette is so forgiving for helping Kim with his love life in Dark Cupid"

Is historical revisionism based on a retcon. And a bad retcon at that! The writers did not write this idea into the show until Derision came out, that is so obviously a retcon that it's almost as bad as Kim being retconed to be a pure nice himbo!

Miraculous Ladybug is terrible at character writing and Derision just highlights that fact. In any other show, the idea that Kim helped traumatize Marinette would have been either some type of dark secret (Kim is deeply ashamed of his actions but has moved on since them and become a better person) or a very dark plot twist (Kim and Sabrina are secretly terrible people who helped Chloe abuse Marinette and are almost just as bad as her). But because it happened in Miraculous, Kim is going to leave this episode scot free while Chloe is going to be racked over coals cuz "tHiS pRoVeS sHeS pUrE eViL!1!"

[sidsinning]

Showrunners put an ep like Derision out and expect me to like the principal, Sabrina, or the mayor after a single ep of righteousness

Suck me

[geeky92]

OP, I suffer from anxiety and get panic attacks when I’m either startled or frightened, and had bad experiences with bullies too. That being said, Derision was a TERRIBLE Miraculous Ladybug episode that had some of the laziest retcons in the entire show! And the fact that the writers used trauma and anxiety as a way to make the audience excuse Marinette’s creepy stalking habits is just tasteless and disgusting!

Also, the fact that some of you are accusing us of being abuse apologists for not liking this stupid episode is rich, considering that this is the same show that undermines child abuse and abusive parents in general (I’m looking at you André, Audrey, Tomoe and Gabriel).

Also, are we all just gonna ignore how Marinette spent most of Season 3 trying to keep Kagami away from Adrien, even though Kagami had absolutely nothing to do with Chloe?!

How come most people on this site don't understand the simple message of derision at all is hilarious to me cuz it tells me yall never understood how trauma works and it's not that simple to be put in words and humans are more complex than being miserable and dwell on their trauma 24/7

tw : abuse bullying trauma sa

if you just put ur 1% of unbiased critical thinking skills they literally explained the REASON behind marinette's behavior with planning things ahead in case and making it complicated, memorizing things to not get hurt again ( bc of severe bullying by her racist ableist bully (CHLOE) who's been like that since season 1 if you KNEW.)

And saying she was good with kim in dark cupid compared to derision is not working with ur case cuz there's a thing called dissociative amnesia??? Most victims of abuse has it. heck I don't remember the time i got sa'd and by whom i got sa'd I don't wanna think about it. I wanna forget my trauma. YEAH you get it most victims want to forget or surpress the pain

On top of that she was made superhero later on who had to fight a magical terrorist daily do you think she's gonna dwell on what happened with kim that much when the nature of experiencing such trauma makes the brain involuntarily surpress it.

Her nervous mental breakdowns arose only bc of factors like going on a date with a boy at the pool, him being chloé's friend, etc which brought back her traumatic memories

"We didn't see any clues-" her making complicated plans instead of doing it simply???kim getting humiliated on his confession in dark cupid which seemed karma???? her not taking chat noir's proposals seriously till he told her in glaciator that he was serious in love with her??? she only likes sincere kind boys, etc ????? What are these???? Just for decoration??? Derision only lined up everything which made her character put together. Most of yall never even paid attention to her in first place of course you think it's stupid. Because ur fave was in fact horrible bully and you can't victimize chloe knowing how she horribly abused marinette for 4 years like that cuz it makes you uncomfortable that ur actually defending a BULLY and victim blaming a VICTIM

ALSO marinette had unhealthy coping mechanism of learning everything about adrien bc he was mysterious and chloé's friend, she even learned to improve upon it too. This is how humans go through unlearning their bad habits due to trauma and healing and becoming a better person. And mind you she has never harmed or abused anyone for the sake of fun unlike someone (*cough chloe)

And please stop putting bs takes. Her other exaggerated cartoon antics are used in different contexts for slapstick comedy it's not the same as memorizing a celebrity's schedule which was the unhealthy behavior. Her circumstances is understandable and you should know this but you're deliberately believing it's stupid bc you just hate marinette so idk leave if you can't give any productive related opinion. Peace ���🏽

[eddo-tensei]

This will never not make me laugh

In case you don't know what this is, this is all the sightings of Socqueline Wang in Season 5. Aside from her debut, she only had like two cameos before her big moment in Derision's flashback where she turned out to be this super important figure in Marinette's life...and then she just disappears from the season altogether after the flashback is over. Right after we find out how she got suspended, she just stops showing up for the rest of the season. She doesn't even appear in the present of the same episode or even cameo in the background in episodes afterwards. She's just gone. It's like after they showed her getting suspended and this epic farewell scene between her and Marinette where she rips off the Majesta speech from Alya (Because why not steal one more thing from Alya?), they just treat it as though she isn't in Paris anymore even though we saw her two episodes ago still helping her friends. All this does is serve to prove that Socqueline's entire character is just to provide tragedy for Marinette's backstory and nothing else. I can't even say this is salt for Socqueline because this feels like the writers throwing her out as soon as she apparently fulfilled her purpose in showing Marinette having a big sad because of mean old Chloe. She doesn't even appear in the background of Revolution in protest of Chloe, which you think she would considering how much she hated Chloe. It's an instance of them just creating a disposable character purely just to prove a point and instead of keeping her in the cast, they just throw her into the bin because she doesn't serve a purpose anymore. More people hate Chloe now and that's all that matters to the writers. Screw actually developing this character who's supposedly a great figure in one of our main character's lives. As far as the writers are concerned, she already fulfilled her purpose in the narrative and that's infuriating to me because of how utterly manipulative it all comes across as.

Is this irrational? Am I too upset at the treatment of what's basically a minor character in this show? You be the judge.

[m3nt4llyr4v3d]

I will never forgive Derision

I will never forgive this episode for just straight up lying to fans. I will never forgive this episode for just, insulting them and the characters they’re attached to. I will never forgive this episode literally ruining all characters involved.

I will NEVER forgive the writers. I will never forget the fact that they have said, for fucking YEARS, that Marinette’s behavior was part of the comedy. I will never understand how they expect us to take Derision as an honest to god episode that fits in the timeline and not a complete and total retcon.

I will never understand how some fans genuinely acted like this episode recontextualized anything.

Guys.

Guys.

For literal years, Marinette’s behavior was said to be a joke. If you are insistent that this episode be taken seriously, that somehow the writers planned everything all along…

This means that the writers willingly reduced a trauma response to a reoccurring gag.

For years.

Even if you don’t believe the authors planned everything while still believing this recontextualizes things, guys! This recontextualization literally shows you the narrative was treating this as a joke! Why are you okay with this?? Demand integrity for your characters, for the story!

Marinette deserves better than that, dear god

[muggle-born-princess]

Gabriel: "I became a terrorist because I still loved and miss Emilie, and that's why I abused and gaslighted everyone; including Adrien."

Marinette: "I forgive you, I'll make sure I never tell the truth to anyone. Not even Adrien."

Félix: "I stole the miraculouses from you because I was ashamed for being a sentimonster, and I was abused for being one. I just wanted them to be free. Which is why I committed genocide."

Marinette: "I forgive you. Wanna join our team as the new Peacock holder?"

Chloé: "I bullied you because my mom abandoned me, and daddy didn't know how to raise me properly. I felt jealous, insecure and useless towards you. That's why I became Queen Bee and betrayed you."

Marinette: "FUCK YOU! LEAVE!"

[miraculousdeservesbetter2024]

A lot More Derision Salt because no, I’m not done:

Like a friend of mine brought up, if Chloe traumatized Marinette so much (and keep in mind that I’m NOT downplaying trauma, I’m VERY anti-bullying), then WHY did she ever give her a miraculous in the first place then!? I can at least understand in the Queens trilogy why, but any other episode after that!? Why would you entrust the one who’s caused you (and supposedly so many others) so much pain with such a huge responsibility such as a miraculous??? In fact, WHY don’t you show similar trauma with Kim and even Sabrina!?

“Marinette was just trying to be nice/felt sorry for her!”

I don’t think that’s how trauma works if I'm being honest. I feel if anyone ever did that to me personally, I wouldn’t trust them. I could understand if this was low key/simple school bullying we were talking about here, but this is something that supposedly caused Marinette trauma? That’s also really irresponsible on Marinette's part, given someone who appears to be so conceited, egotistical, immature and selfish to her, a very powerful item just because they’re trying to be “nice”.

And before anyone tries that “Omg, It’s a kids show, it’s not meant to be taken seriously!” excuse, then fine. However, if that’s really the case, then WHY even include such a complex and serious topic in the first place? Just to make a middle school bully look worse/unrealistically more evil? Derision is poked with so many holes that it’s literally useless and wouldn’t have impacted the story at all if it was removed.

As for the whole “not to be taken seriously” argument, The writers (especially Thomas) only CHOOSE when they want this show to be serious. One minute it’s not meant to be over-analyzed or “be simple”, but the next minute they’re throwing out terrible morals all over the place just to justify its contradictory. They just want to do what they want to do without any criticism, that’s all there is to it 🙄

And that's their right to do the show the way they want. That doesn't mean it's correct though...

[howhow326]

If there is a single good thing about Derision, it's that we won't get any more salt fics where Kim (& Nino) are "Marinette's only allies at school" and Max (& Alya) are Lila's attack dogs.

[silverforestry]

Derision is my entire case for why this show needs a reboot ASAP. I loved the approach of maneuvering Marinette’s issues as a product of bullying because, as someone who was bullied, I wish more shows were willing to dig into how much that messes someone up.

The obvious issue is that none of this was built up to in previous seasons—just Chloe being a jerk—so it feels awkward to long-time fans and anyone who was banking on Chloe redemption. There was zero consesus in the writer’s room at any point, I can feel it. I think this could be so well done if it actually fit into the story—if Socqueline existed before this season, if Marinette had a stronger aversion to Kim, if more of her classmates looked at the situation with Lila and were able to see the similarities with Chloe… so many things.

I think a show as significant as this one will see many spinoffs and additional properties, so hopefully the story is handled better in the future. My last prayer right now is that the movie is good so I can abandon one canon for another.

[gale-gentlepenguin]

Look Marinette was not bullied by Chloé. Derision proved that.

Marinette was TORTURED by Chloé. Like for f***'s sake. There is a difference.

One is putting gum on someone's seat or making cruel insults.

Torture is when you psychologically abuse someone by putting insects in their locker and getting the boy they like to put insects in a jewelry box, or make it so teachers wont do anything to stop it.

For f***s sake.

I was bullied in my past in middle school and let me tell you, the s*** chloé pulled where she planned on ruining Marinette's life isnt bullying. That word is far too weak of a descriptor.

[nedjsmlfavs]

So Derision Broke Me…

Derision (Miraculous S5E14) made some choices that fundamentally broke Marinette’s character for me to the point where I’m having trouble motivating myself to keep writing for this fandom. I figured I’d write down my thoughts and see if that helped me get into a headspace where I can ignore this episode like I do any other writing choices I’m not fond of. If anyone has some words of wisdom, I'd love to hear them.

In Derision, we learn that Marinette has some serious trauma surrounding love. When she was 13, she confessed her love to Kim and was rewarded with a box full of spiders. This “prank” understandably left her traumatized and shaken to her core. In response to that trauma, she vowed to never confess her love to another boy. Not unless she knew everything about him.

This “prank” and several others are revealed to be the fault of Chloé. As for why she’s doing this, well, we’re never given a reason why Marinette is the target. However, we are told the motivation for Chloé’s actions. Rose blames them on the fact that Chloé was abandoned by her mother. Mylène responds to this observation by pointing out that she was also abandoned by her mother, but that didn’t turn her into a bully! Which is a fair point. People react differently to trauma and trauma doesn’t justify bad behavior or undo the effects of those bad behaviors. At the most, trauma explains why the behavior is happening. A lesson that Miraculous has given us before.

In the character Félix’s titular episode, Félix shows up and starts treating Adrien poorly. This leads to this exchange between Adrien and Plagg:

Plagg: What's up with that cousin of yours? First, he searches through your things, and then, the most unforgivable thing of all, he squashes my hunk of goat's cheese under your pillow! I'd been maturing that baby for two weeks! Do you realize? Two whole weeks! Adrien: Listen, Plagg. Félix lost his dad not so long ago, he's probably not himself. Plagg: I'm sorry, but there's just no excuse! You never touch my cheese, and yet, you just lost your mother not so long ago, right?

And, once again, this is a fair observation! The fact that Félix’s father died does not justify Felix trying to ruin Adrien’s life. All it does is explain his motivation. 

Trauma does not excuse hurting others. When trauma has negative effects on us, it’s up to us to work through those feelings either on our own or, ideally, with the help of loved ones and therapists. We are never justified in lashing out at innocents who had nothing to do with our trauma.

This brings us to the topic of Marinette. 

The fact that Marinette has trauma around romance does not justify her treatment of Adrien. Breaking into his home, trying to sabotage his relationship with Kagami, and all of her other obsessive behaviors are not okay just because she was traumatized by Kim. If Chloe and Felix are not excused by their trauma, then neither is she.

So why am I only bothered by this now?

Because, before this episode, Marinette’s behavior was very clearly a joke. It was, in my opinion, a bad joke, but it was a joke and, when it comes to writing, jokes have to be looked at differently than things that are played straight.

Miraculous relies heavily on absurdist humor. That’s why you’ve got an episode where Adrien and his teenage friends throw an unchaperoned party attended by a bunch of random adults. A thing that would be horrifying and upsetting in reality, but is fine in the show because it’s clearly played as being ridiculous and over the top. I mean, just look at this scene. Anyone taking this seriously has clearly lost the plot.

Marinette’s obsession fell under the same category. Something that would be very wrong in reality, but was obviously being played up for laughs. I was always under the impression that, without the absurdist humor, she’d be significantly toned down and that’s why I just sort of tolerated it in the show. Not my idea of a good joke, but clearly a joke so meh. I can overlook it while watching the show and, when writing her, I can be true to her character while not including this level of obsession because I don’t write crack fic.

Derision changed that. It took 4.5 seasons of questionable jokes and tried to justify them. And that? That is a terrible idea. Because there is no justification for Marinette’s behavior just like there is no justification for Chloe’s behavior in the exact same episode. What they’re doing is wrong and, at best, their trauma explains their behavior. It does not justify it.

Plus, hey, remember how Derision said Kim was a terrible person for laughing at Marinette’s trauma? Isn’t that the exact same thing that we’ve all unknowingly been doing for 4.5 seasons? Kinda makes it hard to rewatch old episodes where her crush was played for laughs, doesn’t it? I hope you’ve never laughed over Marinette’s behavior because, if you have, you’ve been making fun of her trauma and so have the writers.

And that sums up why this episode really bothers me. I either have to ignore a character’s trauma or I have to accept that her trauma has apparently made her unhinged and address it. Because if her behavior is not a bad joke, then the salters are right and Marinette is a total creep. I’m trying my hardest to choose option one, but I’m struggling.

It’s not that Marinette is the only character with questionable behavior. Adrien as Chat Noir is often written as overly persistent and obnoxious when it comes to his crush. It’s not great behavior, but it’s not a consistent characterization nor is it a major flaw. I can fix it with a quick character arc about boundaries or ignore it and (in my head) say that arc happened off screen because I have no doubt that this sort of common teenage issue could be overcome with relative ease. Because when Chat Noir is put in a situation where he could clearly violate Ladybug’s boundaries? He doesn’t. He is, ultimately, respectful. He just needs to be told that respect is more than listening to the explicit “no”.

Deep-seated trauma that leads to stalking? That’s not a minor flaw. It’s a major issue that reveals the need for psychological intervention. I’m not gonna give that to a teenager and fix it with the power of friendship and communication. Nor will I give the stalker her prize. I’m gonna keep him safe because, if Marinette has this level of romance-based trauma, then she is not mentally well enough to be a relationship with someone.

You see, I’ve had people with obsessive crushes who violated my boundaries. A loved one of mine had to get the police involved because of someone’s crush on them. Stalking and obsessive behavior is not a joke. It’s traumatizing, but even though I have that trauma, Miraculous never bothered me because of how the stalking was played as a joke.

Joke's over, though. As of Derision, we are supposed to take Marinette's behavior at face value.

So, yeah. I don’t know where I go from here. It’s been a week and I just have no desire to ever touch Marinette again. If anyone has some words of advice, I’d love to hear them. And I’m sorry, but it may be a while before anything of mine updates.

[sidsinning]

I legitimately can't believe a show like MLB with MLs like Adrien and Luka let Ondine end up with Kim after he lightheartedly mentioned he did one of the worst things you could ever do to a girl and then said "Chloe’s the prettiest girl in the world and the funniest too" right in front of her

He didn't even do anything to earn her heart back he just apologized to Mari

Poor girl

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

Adrien is Marinette's Therapist, NOT her Boyfriend and it's Gross

Mental health struggles are no joke and, if you have those struggles, then you absolutely need a partner who will support you through them. That's why, at face value, Adrien supporting Marinette with her PTSD and anxiety is very sweet. It's what a good boyfriend should do. The problem is that Adrien is being written like her therapist, not her boyfriend.

Adrien has his own struggles with depression, loss, and paternal neglect. Yet none of these struggles are brought up once Adrien and Marinette get together. Instead, the relationship is all about her needs and struggles even though this season ends with Gabriel's take down, meaning that focusing on Adrien's issues would have made more sense from a narrative perspective. How much more powerful would the final have been if Marinette really understood Adrien, Emilie, and Gabriel's relationship?

But why do that when we can make everything about Adrienette instead? Why bother to mention Emilie when Marinette is a much better point of conflict between Adrien and Gabriel? After all, if we did that, then Adrien would have a life outside of Marinette and that would be, well, sigh, let's get into it, shall we?

In Derision, we learn that Marinette apparently doesn't have some form of anxiety or ADHD or any of the other things that people have theorized over the years. No, vanilla-Marinette is a totally relaxed, go-with-the-flow non-planner who only started planning after Chloe, Sabrina, and Kim gave her PTSD. Does this insult her character and make no sense? Yes, but let's not get into that. Let's just accept the retcon and look at the fallout of Adrien knowing that his new girlfriend has massive trauma that's mainly focused on romance and controlling situations.

The very next episode is Intuition. In it we see Marinette calling Adrien to show off her ability to do things without planning (or, at least, with less planning) and it's clear from context that this is an exercise that they're doing:

Adrien: Well... (his phone rings) Fancy that! Marinette! I like spending time with Marinette. (picks up his phone) Marinette: (on-call) Guess what I'm calling for: nothing! Can you believe it? I'm calling you randomly, totally out of the blue, for no reason at all! Adrien: So you didn't write down everything you might need to say to me based on everything I might say to you? Marinette: Not at all! Well... I did. I really tried not to, you know, but it was too hard! Anyhow, I limited myself to fourteen possible conversations, including this one! Adrien: Congratulations! Marinette: (on-call) Thank you! Adrien: And did you prepare questions for science class? Marinette: (on-call) Not-a-one! Not even for the live video conference we're doing with Max's mom on the super awesome Tsurugi space jet! I, Marinette, will improvise questions, unpredictably, without planning anything!

In the context of the show, this conversation is deeply concerning and I don't know wtf the writers think they're doing. There is no way in hell that a 14-year-old should be guiding his girlfriend through a therapy session or therapy exercise unless he has the guidance and approval of a trained mental health professional.

Seriously look at what Adrien is doing in this dialogue: Marinette tells him that she's called him without planning and he doesn't just say "that's great!" Instead, he asks if that's true, congratulates her for her mild improvement, and then prompts her to talk about another situation where she would plan things out. In other words, he's asking about the therapy homework that he's clearly given her or that they've decided on together. It's also clear that this isn't their first discussion on the topic because he's very comfortable knowing what to ask about to see if she's done her homework right.

Why was this homework chosen? Who knows! It certainly wasn't picked by someone with training! A therapist wouldn't tell you to avoid planning for a school assignment (something that we've never seen Marinette overplan before, but once again, we're ignoring the retcon). This scene would arguably be inappropriate for an established adult relationship, but a nascent teenage one? Absolutely not.

My SO and I have both done therapy and seen wildly unbalanced relationships. This conversation threw massive red flags for us on both fronts. This is not what a healthy relationship looks like. This is not a give and take. This is why you need a therapist to at least guide you through this type of situation or you will set yourself up in roles where person A is not getting their needs met because the relationship has an established dynamic where person A is the giver and person B is the taker.

This is especially true for a young relationship that's just getting its feet off of the ground. They're supposed to be in the honeymoon phase! More established relationships are better able to handle phases where one person needs more support than the other which absolutely happens and is totally normal. However, when those things happen, it's vital for the supporting partner to have their own support since they can't get it from their partner.

Miraculous denies Adrien this suport. In the very next episode, we get this:

Adrien: I've always seen Marinette acting funny in my presence. I thought that was just the way she was. I thought it was sweet. I thought it was just her charm. But now that I know it's because she loves me and she freaks out about telling me, I feel bad. Because it means that this whole time she's been uncomfortable around me, and I haven't done anything to help her. Kagami: But you didn't know. Adrien: It doesn't take away from her suffering. I just wish she could feel more at ease when she's with me. Otherwise, one day, it'll be too late and she'll give up. Kagami: What can I do to help, Adrien? Adrien: Thanks, but it's not up to you or anyone else to help. I'm the one who's gotta do something.

No! Adrien, you are not equipped to deal with this solo. Ask Kagami to help! Ask Alya to help! Ask Marinette's parents to help! There are times when it's okay to involve others in your relationship and this is one of those times! This isn't even a relationship issue! It's a mental health issue! I know we're flipping gender roles here, but it's not somehow cute or healthy just because a guy is trying to "fix" the girl for once. No one should try to take on that task. This is what therapy is for.

If therapy is not an option for financial or other reasons, then yes, sometimes you have to struggle through and loved ones can help, but in TV land? Especially aimed-at-kids TV land? Show the ideal scenario! At the very least, show a support network! And I mean actual support, not Kagami asking to help and Adrien shooting her down! Writers, you are making Gabriel's dislike of Marinette valid! You are making it so that she is dragging Adrien down! Stop doing that!

Adrien deserves love and support, too. Adrien deserves to be romanced. Adrien deserves more than a kiss and an "I love you" that he had to fight to hear! He never even gets one of the presents from Marinette's chest. She did more to woo him before they got together and it's such pathetic writing.

The fun of getting these two together is letting them do all the stuff they've always wanted to do! Let Marinette bring him macrons! Let him bring her roses! Let her enhance his wardrobe! Let him write her poems! Let them be a healthy, balanced, sickeningly-cute couple! It's fine if she's nervous at the start and takes a while to act normal, but this show takes it to a level beyond teenage jitters and it's not funny or cute. It's concerning.

All of these issues start with Derision's romance-based-PTSD retcon and it was the worst thing they could have done for the Love Square. It poisons the rest of the season and is why I just can't ship these two in canon even though I love what they could have been. They have established such a horrifically unhealthy dynamic that I can't see this ending well unless they get couple's therapy in the very near future and that's not even touching on the baggage that will come from the lies and still unresolved Ladynoir trauma.

As soon as Marinette has romance-based PTSD, she was incapable of being in a relationship until after she'd learned to manage her PTSD. (PTSD cannot be cured, btw, you just learn how to manage it and the symptoms can lessen.) The writers apparently knew that. It's why they gave her a therapist to support her as she worked through her issues and got to the point where she can say "I love you". His name is Adrien. Isn't he cute?

[chivalricmaiden]

Good grief, so this show is really just doing this with every single fandom complaint they have huh?

Marinette is stalking Adrien? Well, she has PTSD from Chloe and Kim, so it's completely justified and by criticizing it, you are being inconsiderate of mental health.

The statue kiss was disgusting? Jokes on you, Adrien was into it and was actually the turning point for him to realize his feelings for Marinette.

Chloe is a victim of emotional abuse from her mother? Well, let's shoehorn Zoe in and make Mylene's mom leave her to show that Chloe's turmoil is insignificant.

Gabriel Agreste is an awful parent? He's just a very sad man who misses his wife. Why don't you look at what Lila and Chloe are doing? These developing teenage girls are way more evil than a fully matured adult.

Chat Noir is a bad partner and constantly bothers Ladybug on the job? Let's take away the rest of the miraculous and make it so that Ladybug only has him to turn to. Perfect.

I was going to write an essay looking in on this further, but some people have already done it really well and I'm honestly too tired to care. A girl can't go through the Chloe Bourgeois tag in hopes of fanart without coming across the dumpster fire that is canon. Sigh.

[m3nt4llyr4v3d]

Derision: How Far Does it Go?

(i will take any opportunity to shit on Derision because it honestly doesn’t make sense from any standpoint)

Okay, so Derision introduces the audience to the reason why Marinette has difficulty being intimate with Adrien as well as why she was acting a certain type of way in the earlier seasons. She has trauma, and now she has to know everything about someone who interacts with Chloe

So just how far is this reason supposed to go?

Because Marinette does quite a bit more than just finding out everything she can about Adrien. What about her sniffing his pillow in Chat Blanc? Her breaking into his house? Her stealing his phone to delete an embarrassing message? She mentioned specifically in Derision that she’d find out everything about someone before deciding to pursue them as a love interest, what exactly do these things have to do with that? It could be argued that the issue got worse without her knowing, and now she does these things without even knowing or understanding why, like having a goal in mind but losing sight of it along the way (hell, it happened with Gabriel), but that introduces an even worse problem

See, this is the problem with taking something that’s supposed to be part of the comedy and, without warning, turning it into something we’re supposed to take seriously. Not only does it reflect bad on the writers (All of a sudden 1/3 of the show’s humor is literally just someone’s trauma response), it also means we have to look at the actions of the character through a serious lens too. So all of a sudden, what was basically supposed to be the equivalent of slapstick humor at the time is now an actual crime

Not only that, but it also means that this seriously concerning behavior will never be addressed. Be honest, how many of you expect Marinette to get help after realizing she had trauma? Even after she does all this concerning shit because of this, how many of you genuinely think the show is going to acknowledge that wasn’t healthy, she was still obviously being heavily affected by these events, and needs help? It’s most likely going to be, oh, she realized it was an issue and said so to her boyfriend, that means it’s not an issue anymore! (The show’s inability to even consider getting any of the characters any help is for another post, ooo lemme tell you)

[eddo-tensei]

More thoughts on Derision (Spoilers, obviously)

I think it's amusing that the default counter-argument to anyone who criticizes this episode boils down to "Well, you're just a Chloe Stan!" Which is something I had to deal with myself recently. Apparently, you can only hate this episode if you're a Chloe apologist. First off, hi, I'm Eddo. I wrote a fanfic where Chloe literally gets thrown into the dirt and suffer an allergic reaction to cacti, both times being her own fault. I feel like my Chloe Stan license should be revoked after that.

Anyways, I'm not surprised with the direction they went with Chloe in Derision. It's been stated since around Season 4 that Chloe was on a "Damnation Arc", so they've been doing everything they can to make her worse and worse. So, I'm not surprised or even angry that they continued this here. I'm annoyed, but not angry. What I AM angry about would be the other characters who got mangled in this shitshow.

Writers? Could you please stop having Chat threaten people with Cataclysm after he's shown regret doing it to people by accident TWICE?! This has happened three times now, counting what happened with Scarabella. Yes, I know he did this before with Darker Owl, but that just makes it worse because that happened right AFTER he regretted doing this to Monarch. You know, the guy who's been tormenting and attacking everyone for over a year? I guess to Chat, Damocles and Kim deserve it more for ripping away a fantasy and pulling a shitty prank respectively.

I know I complained about this a lot already, but this needs to be stressed upon. If we're going to take Cataclysm seriously, especially with what later episodes showed us, maybe DON'T have your hero threaten people with it for relatively petty reasons? "BUT IT'S FOR TRUE LOVE!!!1!!" Yeah, no. When he tried to do it on Darker Owl, Ladybug told him to cut that crap. It then happened again with Dark Humor with Ladybug telling him not to do it. It doesn't matter if it's for "true love." Both times he did this so far, Ladybug made it clear that this was a bad idea. So, maybe you guys should stop trying to encourage it. I refuse to believe that Chat believes that Monarch is more deserving to live after everything that he did than Kim after what he did. Speaking of Kim...

My friendly neighborhood dumb jock, why would the writers do this to you? When we only had the leaks to go by, I actually tried to scour for any interactions Kim had with Marinette and I can confirm that with the revelations we got in Derision, they REALLY don't make sense. Yes, Kim was a bit of a douche in the first season. Origins had him push Ivan around to the point of being the trigger for the Akuma. But he wasn't THIS much of a douchenozzle. Moreover, I have a hard time believing Marinette would be as friendly as she is with Kim throughout the series given what he did to her as revealed in this episode. Also, I know this is going to sound offensive, but...Kim was Marinette's first crush? Really? That's what you're going with? I'm not trying to insult Kim, but there was NOTHING that hinted to this. I can't help but think this was the thought process of the writers when they brought this up:

"So, we need to have Chloe do something to Marinette that would explain why Marinette struggles to be with Adrien. It has to be something big and traumatic. More importantly, it has to involve Marinette actually having a past crush that Chloe ruined and it has to be a character we're familiar with, so we can't make up an OC for it. We can't use Nino because he had a crush on her and it wouldn't make sense for her to reciprocate. We can't use Nathaniel because his crush went almost completely unnoticed by Marinette and he's also gay now. We can't use Ivan because he likes Mylene and we can't complicate that. We can't use Max because most people think he's ace and subverting that would piss a ton of people off. Oh, and we can't have it be any of the girls either because our show would get cancelled if Marinette isn't straight. So, let's just make it this guy."

"This. Fucking. Guy."

I'm having a hard time thinking of any other reason. I know some people theorized in the past that Kim and Marinette might've had a thing, but I don't think they held any water. Even now, however, I really don't think people should be happy it was canonized in this way.

I always held the belief that Chloe was responsible for Marinette's behavior, but my idea of it was that Chloe had been bullying Marinette for a long time and those years of sustained bullying took its toll on the poor baker girl that made it difficult for her to not only open her heart to people she loves, but have difficulties making friends in general until Alya came along. Yeah, Chloe doesn't look good in this case either, but it would've been more reasonable and would probably resonate with a lot more people who probably had to deal with bullies messing with them for a long time because these effects usually aren't instant. They get built on for a long time and it can really mess up their perception on things.

I think a good story would've been Marinette having to heal from that sustained trauma and while it is difficult since nobody can just quickly heal from trauma, it'd be a good journey for Marinette to be able to open up again with Alya and Adrien being just the first two pieces Marinette needs for her recovery.

But now, instead of all that, it turns out Chloe just pulled a prank that just unleashed a cavalcade of trauma on Marinette all at once that is hyper-specific to how she handles her crush that Adrien and ONLY Adrien can heal. All the while, it turns out that the prank was actually pulled by a guy who I really thought was just kinda fun and cool, but now I can't talk about him in the same way again because he's been thrown under the bus for the sake of this nonsense plot that's difficult not to call a full-on retcon. Do you know what I can call a retcon, though? Or rather who?

I am sorry to all of the people who are probably stanning Socqueline right now, but I CAN'T vibe with her. I'm not saying you're not allowed to like her either, because that would be dumb, but I DON'T like how she was presented in Derision. First off, to get this out of the way, we're no strangers to characters being introduced out of nowhere. Felix and Zoe are both characters that come to mind. The thing is you can at least explain their respective absences easily. Felix had likely been distant from Adrien for a long time with him only coming in out of obligation with Amelie. Zoe is actually even more easy to explain given that she was shoved into a boarding school by Audrey and wouldn't really be able to connect with any of the characters until she was forced to transfer. Socqueline, however, does not have that luxury and cannot be easily explained away not only with how we found her, but for the fact that there was NO hint to her existing until Season 5 and that is inexcusable given how much importance this character now has. To put it in perspective, this is how we are introduced to Socqueline in Jubilation:

Marinette: That fake Ladybug from this morning, I think it was Socqueline, a school friend from last year. Knowing her, I’m sure she means well. But I have to convince her to stop putting herself in danger like that.

That's it. She just calls her a school friend. Yes, it's clear that she's at least important enough for Marinette to remember her name, she was just called a school friend. At the very least, she did have an interesting story with her trying to be Ladybug in order to help people. Of course, she had to be talked out of it because it's causing issues with the real Ladybug, but it's a decent story and Socqueline had only made a few appearances here and there.

And then Derision.

Yes, Socqueline referred to Chloe as "that monster", so it's clear that they planned her to have something against Chloe since her first appearance. However, Derision showed us that Socqueline wasn't just a school friend. She was Marinette's closest confidant in the school years prior to the start of the series. She actively protects Marinette from bullies, particularly Chloe, and was clearly a huge inspiration for her until Chloe got her suspended from school.

First off, in case I haven't made it clear, we haven't seen Socqueline AT ALL until Season 5. Not even a hint to her existence. So given how significant she was made out to be in Derision, WHY HASN'T SHE MADE ANY APPEARANCES IN THE SERIES BEFOREHAND?! She doesn't even have the excuse of being outside of Paris like Felix and Zoe do because she's STILL there and in an arts and crafts store no less, which probably would've been a great place for Marinette to hang out in with her friends if the writers thought this through. But they didn't and Socqueline's debut comes off as severely jarring because we have this character who was really important to Marinette's life just not show up until she started cosplaying as Ladybug.

Secondly, it muddles Marinette's own backstory as well as severely hampering the significance of Alya. Now instead of being alone with nobody to help her against Chloe, which makes her friendship with Alya all the more stronger, Marinette just had this super cool friend who was always there for her until mean ol' Chloe got her kicked out of school. Doesn't that sound like something you'd see in a fanfic, specifically one that's salting Alya given how Socqueline was depicted as Marinette's BFF?

Thirdly, if Chloe was able to get Socqueline suspended so easily, then why hadn't she been able to do that with the other students? Yeah, she got close with Alya, but that didn't stick. If Chloe really had the ability to just make students disappear even if it happened once, she would NOT hesitate to try and do this again with any other student who slighted her, ESPECIALLY Marinette. But she doesn't. Once her attempt on Alya failed, she didn't try again. Hell, LILA had more attempts to get Marinette kicked out of school than Chloe did and actually got closer to doing it than Chloe would ever get, which is weird since she doesn't have the title of "Mayor's Daughter" to throw around like Chloe would. This just feels like something done to explain away why Socqueline didn't show up in the series which doesn't work because she's STILL IN PARIS and I'm pretty sure Marinette would be more than happy to meet with Socqueline given how close they were, but that never happened.

Fourthly, I'm guessing nobody felt like pointing it out because it felt too obvious, but doesn't Socqueline just come off as the writer's answer to Bridgette? You know, the older Marinette based on the anime PV that some fan writers implement into their own stories? Yeah, she's not one-to-one similar to Marinette like Bridgette is, but it definitely feels like another instance of the writers pulling stuff out of fanon just to put a canon spin on it. And like all the other instances, it's a bad spin.

Lastly, this whole incident with the prank and Socqueline's suspension took place a few months before Origins. Not even a year at the earliest. It was specifically stated that Socqueline was suspended three weeks before the end of the school year. Given how close that time gap, the way everyone behaves in Origins makes almost no sense. Marinette would be a lot more horrified of Chloe if Derision was anything to go by and Chloe would be more willing to try and cast Alya out so Marinette doesn't have any allies given that Derision showed Chloe REALLY wanting to make sure nobody helps Marinette. The only point I could even give any leeway to is Kim and even then, again, he's not that much of a douche in Origins as he was in Derision. So, really, it all just comes off as a blatant retcon specifically to try and explain the new direction the writers are taking with certain characters. And do you want to know the dumbest thing? Apparently, Socqueline was such an inspiration to Marinette that the latter changed her hair to be more like Socqueline's.

No, seriously. That's also how they explain why Marinette has different hairstyles. I know Expository Hairstyle Changes are a thing in fiction, but this is just awkward as hell given how traumatic and melodramatic the whole thing is. You don't need to say that Marinette's hairstyle came from someone who she considered a hero because nothing about Marinette indicated that her hairstyle is important. This isn't like Josuke changing his hairstyle to be based on the man who saved him as a child. It's a purely cosmetic change that's suddenly given a shit-ton of significance because now it's connected to this horribly traumatic incident. In fact, you know what this reminds me of?

Actually, the whole segment where this Linkara clip came from seems to sum up a lot of things wrong with Derision. It's not just bad because it makes some characters look bad or introduces stuff out of nowhere. It's bad because now everything in the flashback is now part of all of the characters! Every prior episode will now have to be viewed with a lens tinted by the events of this episode. Now nobody can discuss Kim without people salting on him for the prank, now nobody can talk about how important Alya's friendship with Marinette because of Socqueline's sudden boost in significance (In fact, it's very likely that Alya salters will try to use Socqueline as a replacement friend), and now nobody can speculate the intrigue of Marinette's past because EVERYTHING about her behavior is linked to this specific incident and nothing else. That's what pisses me off about this episode. That's why I share that Double D meme so frequently. I could care less about how much of a monster Chloe was depicted to be in this episode, but I am going to complain when other characters are butchered in the process. I will complain about one thing concerning her, though.

Isn't it amazing that you can tell the writers are trying DESPERATELY to squish any and all positive interpretations of Chloe, even trying to downplay parental neglect because "this character also didn't have a mom and they didn't turn out this way" even though Mylene's and Chloe's situations are still VASTLY different? You can make the argument that Audrey's absence doesn't excuse Chloe's actions. In fact, I don't think it really does either, but saying that there's only one valid response to an absent parent is EXTREMELY insensitive to people who might be going through similar situations.

Oh, and to cap this all off? This is the favorite episode of one of the main writers. Said writer possibly being considered to be the new director for Season 6 of Miraculous and onwards. I'm not gonna name which one for obvious reasons, but it's been confirmed.

I feel like this is a good indication that you need to hop off this series.