#maidenvault sisters unite

[atopvisenyashill]

The Dornish Prince Who United The Seven Kingdoms

aka my “who the hell was Myriah and Maron’s father” meta

Like many of the ruling princes and princesses of Dorne, we have very little information to go on when trying to piece together this Unnamed Prince of Dorne. It’s equal parts odd and frustrating, because this Unnamed Prince was one of the most important figures in Westerosi history and yet we don’t have a birth date, ascension date, marriage information, birth dates for his children, a death date, or even a name.

And yet this is the man who stopped Daeron the Young Dragon’s conquest of Dorne only to successfully negotiate a cease fire between Dorne and the Six Kingdoms as well as a marriage contract for his heir and daughter Myriah with Baelor the Blessed. His influence lives on in his son, Maron, who furthered his father’s peace negotiations by meeting with Daeron II and agreeing to enter the Seven Kingdoms at last - but with a Targaryen bride and more than a few concessions. Daeron’s shortsightedness in dealing with Dorne leads directly to the Blackfyre Rebellions but you can’t deny that Maron at least was a shrewd negotiator because he and his people came out of this negotiation having given up very little. Myriah, for her part, is a well loved Queen despite racism in Westeros against the Dornish, and goes on to have several children with Daeron, who she seemed to love.

So…who the hell was Maron and Myriah’s father? Well, looking at the series proper, the world of ice and fire, and fire & blood, I’ve come up with two theories on him.

Theory One: The Marence Martell Theory

Marence is the son of Aliandra and Drazenko (or possibly, he’s the son of a second husband).

Theory Two: The Qyle Martell Theory

Qyle, the younger brother of Aliandra and only son of Qoren Martell, takes the principality when Aliandra dies childless.

Let’s delve in…

The Facts

Aliandra Nymeros Martell is born in 115 AC so any siblings must be born after this date.

Aliandra's younger brother brother Qyle (and their younger sister Coryanne) is old enough to disapprove of Aliandra's flirtation with Alyn Velaryon in 133 AC.

Aliandra and Drazenko Rogare married during the Lysene Spring 134.

Drazenko died in 135 under suspicious circumstances (it's because his family was acting up see: The Fall of the House of Rogare)

Now a little bit of speculation here...

The Small Council is desperate to marry off Baela in 132 AC (when Aliandra is 17) bc she’s unruly and mean and does hot girl shit, so they’re not gonna betroth her to someone much younger than her, because they need this girl to get laid and calm down.

Qyle is brought up as a potential match. If Aliandra is 17, he could very well be 16, or near enough, and an option for her to marry. This would make his birth year 116 and make him 42 at the Submission of Sunspear.

If Marence is Aliandra's only child by Drazenko, born in 135 AC, it would make him 23 during the Submission of Sunspear.

If The Unnamed Prince of Dorne Is Marence Nymeros Martell

This is interesting for a few reasons. For one thing, it puts Marence of an age with Aegon IV, who was also born in 135 AC during the Lysene Spring as well. It makes sense that Baelor, with his cousin Aemon already on his mind due to his captivity, would see a man roughly the same age as one of his male cousins, and think of Aegon's recently born son, Daeron II, as the key to smoothing things over.

Baelor eschews marriage, not just with his sisters, but in general, and while we don’t have his POV to see what he was thinking about an heir (if he was even thinking of it), given the precedent of uncles and younger brothers usurping female Targaryens, and Baelor’s own *waves at the Maidenvault* nonsense about women, it seems likely Baelor viewed his uncle as his heir and not Daena the Defiant, and thus betrothing the first born son of Viserys’ first born son to Myriah, Marence’s first born daughter, ties everything together neatly.

For Marence’s part, this plan is incredibly risky. Daeron and Myriah are around 7 and a lot can change in the ten years it will take for Myriah to reach the age of majority. Maron could die, and there’s no guarantee Marence can have another child before he himself dies. Myriah could die and throw the whole plan into question. Marence’s people did just torture the everloving hell out of Aemon (and while the Wyl's are a bit notorious for being super violent towards invading forces, we have no idea whether Marence encouraged that the way Aliandra and Deria do, or if he discouraged it the way Nymor does), and Viserys might not be too fond of the plan. But this is Aliandra’s son. This is the son of a goddamn Rogare. High risk plans with little hope of succeeding are their lifeblood and it's clearly a chance that may be worth taking if he wants to finally calm down the warring.

And being Aliandra's son, it's even possible she told him stories about her relationship with Alyn (hopefully not the sexy ones but who knows). Perhaps he's thinking that this might work out, if Baelor can come here and forgive him after they tortured Aemon and killed The Young Dragon, if his mother could find something worth respecting in Alyn. It's a young man's dream for a better, less violent future for his people and for his young children.

If Marence is the Prince, it also means he dies pretty young. Maron is ruling Prince by 174 AC, so even if we push the death date to have happened the very first month of 174 AC, it means Marence is just 39 years old when he passes. He lives long enough to send his daughter to an unknown fate in a still hostile kingdom, to see Baelor die, Viserys II die, and Aegon the Unworthy take the throne and make overtures at continued war while Mariah is essentially a hostage in King's Landing, and now, with only his young son Maron to protect her and to protect Dorne. A wild, risky life with a sad, early death; just like his mother Aliandra.

If The Unnamed Prince of Dorne Is Qyle Nymeros Martell

Firstly, if it's Qyle, I can 100% see why he kills Daeron I and tortures Aemon; we already know he dislikes the other kingdoms of Westeros and after spending years being forced to make nice because of Aliandra, who dies childless and passes the principality to him, an older, hardened Qyle may decide there is no point in trying to make peace with these people. He takes a page out of his ancestor Meria's book and decides to fight dirty and to the last man. Why on Earth would he trust them, why on Earth would he confine himself to the rules of their game? Even without dragons, these people insist on destroying his home so he will fight them until his last breath.

And then this deeply pious seventeen year old (the same age as Aliandra when the principality passed to her!) shows up barefoot with all the hostages who are mostly unharmed and asks to make peace. And now Qyle is approaching middle age (being like 44 at this point), looking at this very odd mirror to his deceased older sister, who is asking him to put aside all anger. There's no charming flirtation or coy words like what Alyn offered Aliandra nor is there the threat of violence and subjugation like what Daeron offered just a few years before. It's a risk yes, but when faced with this bloody-footed seventeen year old and the release of the hostages, it might seem like a risk that's worth taking.

And again, if we push his death date to the first month of 174 AC, it means Qyle is 58 years old. Hardly old by our years, but it's more than several other notable rulers get in ASOIAF. Old enough to have seen relations with the Iron Throne go up and down and when he dies, the future is uncertain yes, but he's spent his life trying to make things better in the only ways he knows how.

SO THAT'S THE UNNAMED PRINCE OF DORNE.

I think both scenarios are interesting and they both seem likely! I hope one day we know a little bit more about this elusive character, as well as about Myriah and Maron - did Myriah resent the marriage her father arranged for her? Did she resent having to give up her claim to the principality or did she see this as a chance to gain further power? Clearly, Maron believed in continued peace making through marriage because he agreed to marry Daenerys as an adult; how close was he to his father then? Was he devastated by his father's death? Did he love Myriah and write to her the way Oberyn and Doran loved Elia? If he is Qyle, and older when he has children, does this impact how he sees them? And if he's Marence instead, and had children young-ish, does that impact their relationship? How does he even die???

Much to think about and I hope we get concrete answers one day!

[the-great-ladyg]

5) what’s the dumbest thing you’ve heard about your f/o, either on the internet or irl?

Hello! Sorry for taking so long on this one, but here I am at last. For this one I'll use Maegor, I have to rant about him.

5) what’s the dumbest thing you’ve heard about your f/o, either on the internet or irl?

Oh, this is going to be long, ig

TW: Violence, domestic violence, rape

"He was the worst king in Westeros history"

Okay, let's start: 🩸🐲 was not the worst king

He did some wrongs like killing ONE of his nephews (the other one was Tyanna's doing) or continue a war that wasn't ending, but he also did some goods like starting the process of disarming the Faith or uniting the realm under one cause.

Don't forget many of the things said about him were rumors (like when he killed a cat the first time he held a blade, or that he killed people from the smallfolk saing they were Warrior's Sons and Poor Fellows), or were Tyanna's actions (the death of Viserys, the kidnapping or Aerea and Rhaella, and the death of Jeyne Westerling and her son, and the stillborn baby of Elinor Costayne).

Now, people say Maegor's killing of every architect and person who worked on the Red Keep was cruel. Okay, what would you do? Those people knew the secrets of the king's castle, they could easily reveal any secret entrance and have the king killed. Even if he decided to cut their tongues and break their fingers, smallfolk would still say he was cruel.

Besides, there have been way worse kings than him, I'll give a few examples:

His brother, Aenys I. Aenys was a terrible king, he couldn't decide on anything, even if his kindom or family were in danger. Rebels trying to rise and get independence? He can't decide who to attack first. The Faith has his eldest son and daughter as hostages? He can't act bc he doesn't to act on undoing the marriage or attacking the Faith. And he made the worst decisions when he acted, like marrying his children with one another or sending his brother, his most powerful supporter since he had Balerion and both Targaryen swords (and he didn't try to take the throne from Aenys) to exile, sending away his most valuable protection from the Faith. Dude died from a stomach cramp lol.

Aegon II. This dude was an idiot who only wanted to act and kill, no negotiation, the only times he decided to negotiate were because his mother, grandfather and wife convinced him to do so, even 🩸🐲 could be reasonable at times without someone talking him to do that. He was an usurper since his father never named him his successor, and this dude only lasted two years as king, and those two years he had to fight in a war he started by taking the throne. The bloodiest civil war in Westeros' history happened because of this man.

Baelor I. Okay, maybe I'm kind of anti Faith of the Seven, but you have to agree with me on this one. This dude trapped his three sisters in the Maidenvault just to keep them as virgins, don't giving a shit about their consent, and that didn't stop Daena from giving birth to a bastard. "Oh, but he gave to every person a loaf of bread", yeah, and he also outlawed prostitution, burned books, did stupid things like "I'm granting tax exemptions if you put a chastity belt to your maiden daughters", named a child as the fucking pope. He was a fucking septon but didn't disolve Aegon and Naerys' marriage even his cousin was suffering and almost dying after every pregnancy. Hell, Baelor would have started a holy war against the North and the Iron Islands to convert people to the Faith, if he didn't starve himself to death.

Aegon IV. Anyone who know his story knows this piece of shit is an useless king, no wonder he's remembered as "the unworthy". He wasted lots of money on favoring certain lords, on trying to conquer Dorne even when his son Daeron was married to princess Myriah. He raped Naerys, don't doubt about it, he killed his sister by forcing her to give birth to all of his sons, and after she and his brother Aemon died he said Daeron was Aemon's son in a tantrum, and it's said he killed his father Viserys to become king. Aegon had sons and daughters with any woman he desired, and he decided to legitimize all of them before dying, because of this piece of shit there were the Blackfyre rebellions that brought death and despair for almost a century.

Aerys II, you know, "the mad king". We all know why he was a terrible king. He tortured and burned people for the most stupid reasons, he raped and beat his sister Rhaella multiple times, the Targaryens lost their most valuable ally, Tywin Lannister, after Aerys threw tantrums over his own stupidity to rule, he caused the fall of House Targaryen because he thought it was a great idea to kill several Northman lords and their sons, including Ned's father and brother.

Honorable mention: Joffrey I Baratheon, you know why.

🩸🐲 is considered the worst king of Westeros because maesters, the Faith and the Hightowers were angry at him, and these people are the ones who write down the story, of course they would say the worst things about him this way "Yeah, he drowned puppies when he was four years old... but that's a rumor".

[dragon-queensguard]

I think Rhaena may have annoyed Elaena and Daena with her piety, and she may have disapproved of/been concerned about some of their behavior, but she never snitched on them, including Daena’s escapes

[aegor-bamfsteel]

I had this fic idea where: Calla, Haegon, their mother and youngest siblings didn't escape and they were taken as hostages in the Red Keep. Calla kind of ends up "playing the game" and trying to forge a better life for her mom and siblings while trying to overcome her trauma of losing her brothers and dead, her anxiety over Daemon II not being around and not having any contact with him and Haegon most likely going to the faith. And she also has survivors guilt. Basically this is a "Calla plays the game while trying to survive" (this includes her glaring at BR and lowkey planning his death, finding Matarys endearing because he's actually fairly nice and so is his brother/dad, she also looks like her mom. OH AND SHE DYES HER HAIR QUITE OFTEN)

Basically my question was: how much would have changed if Calla, Haegon and their mom and younger siblings didn't get to escape?

That’s a really interesting, elaborate fic idea, dearxstorm! If you end up writing it, make sure to link me and I’ll write a comment! Calla has the potential to be an interesting character, and your characterization of her in the prompt sort of lines up with my own (having the Sweetness hiding Steel personality); I like the idea of a psychological story of her dealing with the loss of her family while trapped in a court that hates her at best. I also like your headcanon that she dyes her hair, because it’s a physical identification with her mother’s people; all too often, in asoiaf as in other works of fantasy, the heroes of noble families identify more with their father’s house at the expense of their mother’s (the young Starks identify more with their father’s house to a lesser degree than the others, but even the young Greyjoys are krakens rather than Harlaws, the young Martells don’t consider themselves half-Norvosi, forget about Aegon V + siblings identifying themselves as something other than the blood of the dragon), and it’s the villains that tend to include parts of their mother’s heritage (the Baratheons of king’s landing include a lion in their sigil, the Greens from the Dance of Dragons owed their initial success to their Hightower mother). In addition, Essosi women are almost to a woman treated horribly in Westeros; divorced (Mellario, Larra), exiled (Rohanne), or tortured and killed (Mysaria, Tyanna, Serala, Serenei), so it’s great you decided to single out Rohanne’s Essosi influence on her children as something neutral to positive.

As for your question about what would happen if Calla+family didn’t manage to escape, I asked warsofasoiaf about it years ago; his response that Bl00draven would’ve had them all killed, while certainly in-character (his consistent character trait is harming boys to accomplish his goals), isn’t particularly satisfying for writing a fanfic with these characters. We see Da3ron II took lands and hostages from those who knelt; Lord Bracken’s son died during the Great Spring Sickness, perhaps as a hostage in King’s Landing; Eustace Osgrey’s daughter and only heir Alysanne was sent to the Silent Sisters at age 7, while Standfast went from a prominent lordly house to one of landed knights. Daemon’s lands and titles were likely under attainder, being of fairly recent creation. In Westeros, killing (mostly male heirs) or sending to the Faith (more likely female heirs) the child rivals to one’s lordly power seems to be the norm (most infamously Aegon and Rhaenys Targaryen on Tywin’s orders, but also Cerelle Lannister by her uncle Gerold, Rohanne and Cerelle Tarbeck were sent to the Silent Sisters and Rohanne’s young son was likely murdered during the Reyne Rebellion, the extermination of Houses Darklyn and Hollard bar one after the Defiance of Duskendale). So I tried to look at examples from medieval history to see if I could save the younger Blackfyre boys:

As much grief as I give GRRM for not being historically accurate while claiming he’s true to life, the gendered fate of young male and female rivals who were captured seems to pass muster: with boys usually being killed or “disappeared” (Arthur of Brittany was imprisoned then murdered by his uncle King John of England, the Princes in the Tower mysteriously vanished with the prime suspect as their uncle Richard III) and girls either imprisoned (Arthur’s sister Eleanor was imprisoned for 44 years until her death by her uncle John and cousin Henry), forced into a convent (Gwenllian Princess of Wales by Edward I, Joanna la Beltraneja was given a choice between this or marrying her infant cousin Juan by his mother Isabella of Castile), or married to steal their lands/unite claims (Arthur’s mother Constance was betrothed to his father from age 5 after her brother was forcibly disinherited from the duchy of Brittany, and I’m still not sure what happened to him; Eleanor de Montfort was eventually married to Llewellyn of Wales after she was captured and imprisoned by the English). 

I think the best hope for the Blackfyre boys is for them be rescued and taken to Tyrosh (although Bl00draven would probably try to separate them to prevent all of them taken at once). 

A longer-term option is for Rohanne’s relatives in Tyrosh to try to negotiate their release, probably with a solemn oath never to return to Westeros (happened with the Charles VII’s cousin Charles Duke of Orleans who spent 25 years in various English prisons after his capture by the English at Agincourt until his old rivals the Burgundians negotiated his release; Amaury de Montfort, despite having taken holy vows, was captured along with his sister Eleanor and only by swearing never to return to England and the Pope plus Llewellyn intervening was he released).

Failing that, maybe Baelor Breakspear could try to go ‘the Dontos Hollard route’, asking for clemency out of the boys’ age/birth, and sending them to King’s Landing as squires, and probably make sure they don’t return to their old lands. I doubt they’d be allowed to wed, but I suppose Rohanne could petition for a restoration of Daemon’s old lands to House Blackfyre (as Anne Scott managed to save her lands from her husband Duke James’ attainder after the Monmouth rebellion, and her two surviving sons by him were able to marry and inherit and were loyal to the crown), and they could be wed into a loyal Red house of Da3ron’s choosing; it’d be her grandchildren inheriting these lands (Elizabeth I imprisoned her cousin Katherine Grey for the rest of her life for secretly marrying and had her separated from her two sons, but they were allowed to marry and her grandson became the next Duke of Somerset, despite his family reputation). Not Daemon II if he’s been captured with the others, but possibly Aenys. I’m not saying this is a likely scenario considering the characterization of Bl00draven and the actions of Da3ron II to the other children of rebels, but it’s a kinder solution that maybe Baelor might come up with.

I don’t imagine that these boys will be sent to the Faith, but rather the Night’s Watch seems to be the place for defeated rebels/men sentenced to death; so in all likelihood at least the elder ones could be sent to the Night’s Watch once they’re old enough. Westeros as well as medieval history has shown how easy it could be to take someone from a convent/monastery and use them to take their lands/incite a rebellion (Robar abducting Rhaella from the Faith; Marie of Boulogne was abducted from her convent by Matthew of Alsace to forcibly marry him to steal her lands), plus these vows can be undone (at least in medieval Italy, where sometimes cardinals had to leave the Church to get married to continue their family line; it’s implied in the sentences of Lucinda and Priscella that septas can break their vows) so I think at least the elder ones would not be allowed.

The Blackfyre girls have a higher chance of not being murdered. The worst case-scenario that I could unfortunately see happening is sending them to the Silent Sisters along with poor Alysanne Osgrey, which seems to happen to the most dangerous of noblewomen (rebel queen Marla Sunderland, sasser-of-kings Maris Baratheon, Ellyn Reyne’s daughters Rohanne and Cerelle), all potential heiresses for another rebellion (not likely with so many brothers, but if they manage to escape and another uprising coalesces around them who knows). Another option would be to the Faith to be septas, which happened to more minor noblewomen men wanted out of the way (Rhaella and Megette’s daughters for their “inconvenient birth”, Lucinda Penrose and Priscella Hogg for their roles in the plot to kill Daenaera). 

A particularly painful scenario would be confining them in the Maidenvault until/if a new king decides to release them as their grandmother Daena was. Considering that the next king is Aerys, I doubt they would be released (like Eleanor of Brittany) or marry

It seems not uncommon in Westeros for an ambitious man to marry an heiress of the previous ruler to become suo jure lord of her lands (Tyrek Lannister’s marriage to the infant Lady Ermesande Hayford, Dickon Tarly’s marriage to Eleanor Mooton, Lancel’s marriage to Amerei Frey to steal Darry, and most famously Orys Baratheon’s forcible marriage to Argella Durrandon). The problem with doing this in regards to the Blackfyre girls is that considering their father’s lands are probably under attainder, they don’t have lands to inherit, much less a dowry. Of course, Rohanne could try to petition for a creation of new lands, possibly in exchange for giving up their claim to the throne (Princess Renee of France gave up her claim to the duchy of Brittany in exchange for being made duchess of Chartres by King Francis I, so she could finally be allowed to marry). Another idea would be to send them abroad for matches to Essosi cities the Reds have ties to, such as Lys and Pentos. In a happy scenario, the Blackfyre girls were allowed to marry with permission; to show that Da3ron is serious about healing the realm, he or Baelor could betrothe Calla and Matarys (not expected to inherit the throne; your prompt said they were getting along!). What happens after his death in the Great Spring Sickness is anyone’s guess.

In the edgy scenario, the girls marry without permission, possibly to a Velaryon descendant of Baela’s (just going by my theory of at least some Velaryons as Blackfyre supporters); it seems in medieval England that some potential female claimants to the crown did marry secretly to men with more distant claims (Lady Katherine Grey as mentioned before, but also Lady Arabella Stuart two generations later, to Grey’s own grandson), thus frustrating the desires of their monarchs to marry them abroad. Sometimes they were able to escape their captors and raise their children in exile, eventually allowed to return to their home country; the most famous of these was Margaret Beaufort and her son Henry, who later won the English throne by right of conquest with weak dynastic claim.

A lot of these scenarios ignore the canonical cruelty of Bl00draven and the vindictiveness of Da3ron with regards to the Blackfyres and their supporters; I don’t imagine that they would show mercy to the defeated rebels, and warsofasoiaf’s scenario that they would all be secretly murdered is definitely a possibility. They also ignore Rohanne’s characterization (such that it is) of a take-charge noblewoman who was in my opinion unquestionably a pro-Blackfyre rebel that used her money and influence in Tyrosh to provide a home for the exiles and orchestrated their escape (the idea that Aegor Rivers helped Rohanne escape to her own country seems to diminish her achievements); I don’t think she would be asking the Targaryens for any favors, considering in canon she knew them well enough that she preferred to flee than surrender to the House that gave Bl00draven high office. Barring the “Bl00draven kills them all” scenario, I don’t think she would be executed due to her sex and that she’s from foreign nobility (especially if her male relative was still Archon), but we have no idea if the Faith is an option for her (did she convert? Considering the characterization of GRRM’s other Essosi women as holding to their homeland’s traditions, I doubt it); it’s likely to me she would be separated from her children, who would be governed by Red supporters (maybe if Rhaena is still alive, she could coach the girls?), an emotionally hard punishment for her (considering all of her canonical actions involve her children, it seems she loved them very much). It’s possible she might be sent back to Tyrosh as a gesture of goodwill to her family, after some years of confinement; or she could be sent to a remote location, like Cassandra Baratheon upon a forced marriage to Walter Brownhill.

tl;dr If the Blackfyres and Rohanne aren’t going to be murdered after being captured: the boys would likely go to the Night’s Watch once old enough, or imprisoned in the Red Keep and married under ideal conditions; the girls might go to the Faith, imprisoned in the Maidenvault, married off to non-Tyroshi Essosi, or secretly married; Rohanne would likely be briefly imprisoned, separated from her children, and either sent to the remote countryside or Tyrosh. What happens to them depends on how merciful the Reds are feeling, and how much of a risk they deem them to be. Just expect that if someone leads a rebellion in their name, for the boys to die.