#lyculī quaesītī

[lyculuscaelus]

So, for all who’re interested in Teiresias’s prophecy concerning Odysseus’s death, here’re some interpretations based on the meanings of certain words:

(Odyssey, book 11, line 134–137) … θάνατος δέ τοι ἐξ ἁλὸς αὐτῷ ἀβληχρὸς μάλα τοῖος ἐλεύσεται, ὅς κέ σε πέφνῃ γήραι ὕπο λιπαρῷ ἀρημένον: ἀμφὶ δὲ λαοὶ ὄλβιοι ἔσσονται …

First, let’s talk about “ἐξ ἁλός”.

The most direct meaning of the phrase is the physical motion to come “out of/from the sea”. It’s also logical to assume that the ἐξ ἁλός” here is the same as the one in “ἔνδιος δ᾽ ὁ γέρων ἦλθ᾽ ἐξ ἁλός” (from the Odyssey, book 4, line 450: “at midday that old man came out from the sea”, which is describing how Proteus emerged from the sea) so we’d have “θάνατος δέ τοι ἐξ ἁλὸς αὐτῷ … ἐλεύσεται” translated as “death will come to you out from the sea”. As for how it can be depicted—man, we’re now in AU territory.

Sometimes ἐκ (ἐξ) means “far from” as in distance. In this case the line could be translated as “death will come to you, far from the sea”. Maybe this indicates that Odysseus would die in a land far from Ithaca—or, hear me out: he died where the people he should seek on his oar quest lived (although unlikely during the first time he got there). If they knew nothing of the sea and salt, it’s only natural to suspect that they were themselves far from it. Which could be poetic to think abt—“you have found yourself a place to die, and when you’ve finished your life’s journey, when old age devours your health and your family, you shall head for that land again, to find your peace at last”.

ἅλς (ἁλός being its genitive singular) does not only mean “sea”—as a feminine noun, sure; but as a masculine noun it means “salt”. Meanwhile, there is another meaning of ἐκ (ἐξ), “because of” as in reason. Combining these two, we shall have: “death will come to you because of salt”, which is pretty funny to think about: what if he ate too much salt in a banquet and died of overconsumption? OR it could be…✨hypernatremia✨, since there’s a high chance that all these shipwrecks of his might result in the high concentration of salt in his blood. And this is quite angsty to think abt

Now, for “ἀβληχρός”.

People tend to separate the meaning of this word into two sets: “gentle, easy” (in contrast with a violent death) and then “feeble, weak” (as in description of Aphrodite’s hand). Personally, I’d use “tender” to translate the word since it sorta combined both meanings, being as vague as Homer himself cuz why not.

Specifically, “gentle”? What death could be so gentle, non-violent? Well, diseases, or organ failure, for one (bringing back the hypernatremia), which rather fits his old age as well.

As for “feeble”—I do believe this is a word too strong for this meaning as you’ll see why. “Weak, vulnerable” is fine imo, as long as it’s describing the potential of getting wounded, instead of the condition of being puny. But what’s a “weak death” anyway? I do think it makes more sense if the text goes like “a death will come to you when you’re weak/vulnerable” instead (say, using ἀβληχρῷ…but that doesn’t fit in the hexameter).

Now, here’s an idea I just think of, which is not necessarily the case, but the connection is still interesting. First of all let’s look at the description of Aphrodite’s hand: “ἔνθ᾽ ἐπορεξάμενος μεγαθύμου Τυδέος υἱὸς/ἄκρην οὔτασε χεῖρα μετάλμενος ὀξέϊ δουρὶ/ἀβληχρήν: …”, from the Iliad, book 5, line 337: “thereupon the great-hearted son of Tydeus, reaching forward and leaping upon her, wounded her tender hand on the surface with his sharp spear…”). Now connect this feature of Aphrodite’s hand to the nature of the death Teiresias was prophesying—“the tenderness of your death, just like the palm of love, shall touch you when your heart is old”. But furthermore—could it be that this is how it ends? Could it be that the hand which wrought his death was actually from Aphrodite herself? I’m getting a bit derailed but anyways

The translation of “ὅς κέ σε πέφνῃ/γήραι ὕπο λιπαρῷ ἀρημένον” is quite commonly agreed—“which shall strike you in your old age, ripe and worn out”. Although I’d like to point out that the word “ἀρημένον” (distressed, worn out) here is actually modifying the pronoun σε (you) since they’re both in accusative form, meaning “when you’re worn out”.

The word “ἀμφί” without case here is just an adverb, “around”. The case of λαοί here is interesting, since it’s not followed by any pronoun, which means it doesn’t necessarily refer to “your people”.

What kind of people then? Well, with “ὄλβιος” it often comes with material happiness, and divine blessings on good fortune. “Happy, blest, fortunate, prosperous” might be the closest meaning to the word. Could they be those people in Elysium though…🤔

So there’re three possibilities:

λαοί refers to “your people” indeed: in this case it’s talking about the Ithacans being prosperous and rich for all time.

λαοί refers to “a people”, a random one: this is for those who interpret Odysseus to be “not in Ithaca when he died”, say, when he went “far from the sea”.

It’s just “people will be around you and they’re happy”: he wasn’t alone when he died. Good to know :,)

So…yeah. I suppose this entire prophecy thing is for you to decide which version you like best? There isn’t really a fixed translation of this and you can either 1) ask Odysseus himself; 2) wait till Homer updates his fanfic which is pretty unlikely at this point :(

[lyculuscaelus]

So I keep seeing the discussion of ichor’s color around, which is agreed by almost everyone that it’s golden, but it’s still weird no one has provided a source for reference. So if any of you can help with that, please tell me the source material and quote the corresponding lines; and if you cannot—here’s something I have found, just for your information:

When it comes to ichor, it’s only natural to refer to this part in book 5 of the Iliad, where Aphrodite was wounded by Diomedes (line 339–342):

… ῥέε δ᾽ ἄμβροτον αἷμα θεοῖο ἰχώρ, οἷός πέρ τε ῥέει μακάρεσσι θεοῖσιν: οὐ γὰρ σῖτον ἔδουσ᾽, οὐ πίνουσ᾽ αἴθοπα οἶνον, τοὔνεκ᾽ ἀναίμονές εἰσι καὶ ἀθάνατοι καλέονται. The divine blood of the god (goddess) flowed out, The ichor, such as the kind that flows in all blessed gods— For they neither eat bread, nor drink fiery wine, Therefore they are bloodless, and are called immortals.

But I fail to find a more explicit description in the rest of the book, and even here the color is not described. All you know is that it’s not blood, but it functions like it. So maybe the color isn’t really specified in Homer’s time? I’m not sure…

So then I begin to wonder which god other than Aphrodite and Ares got was known to have bled. Naturally, Prometheus came to mind (thank you @simugeuge for suggesting this). So while I looked up Hesiod’s Works and Days and didn’t find any description either, an interesting part in Apollonius Rhodius’s Argonautica got my attention (book 3, line 851–853):

πρωτοφυὲς τόγ᾽ ἀνέσχε καταστάξαντος ἔραζε  αἰετοῦ ὠμηστέω κνημοῖς ἔνι ��αυκασίοισιν  αἱματόεντ᾽ ἰχῶρα Προμηθῆος μογεροῖο. The first-born (of the herb) sprouted from the blood-red ichor of Prometheus in distress, dripping to the ground by the flesh-eating eagle, on the cliffs of Caucasus. (frick Apollonius Rhodius and his wild sequence of words)

Everything points to the word, αἱματόεντ’, or its nominative singular form, αἱματόεις, -όεσσα, -όεν. It is clear that this is αἱματο- (stem from αἷμα, “blood”) plus this set of endings of the adjective. So it’s something blood-like. Now, if you look up a dictionary, say, LSJ or Middle Liddell, you will find that it means “blood-red, or of blood” when describing colors. Which means, in Apollonius Rhodius’s account, the ichor is blood-red.

So, I still don’t know where exactly is ichor depicted as golden, but at least we now have one ancient Greek account that paints the ichor in red. Is that enough for reference? I don’t know.

[lyculuscaelus]

Another Telemachy

just learned something about the possible pre-Homeric existence of a Cretan Odyssey, and one of the details is pretty interesting and I’d like to show y’all:

Another possible version of the Telemachy, as learned from Zenodotus:

(Scholars on the Odyssey, 3.313; I’ll just translate the underlined parts)

First part:

πέμψω δ’ ἐς Κρήτην τε καὶ ἐς Πύλον ἠμαθόεντα,

I (Athena) will send him (Telemachus) to Crete and to sandy Pylos.

Second part:

πρῶτα μὲν ἐς Πύλον ἐλθὲ, κεῖθεν δ’ ἐς Κρήτην τε παρ’ Ἰδομενῆα ἄνακτα, ὃς γὰρ δεύτατος ἦλθεν Ἀχαιῶν χαλκοχιτώνων

First go to Pylos, then to Crete and to king Idomeneus, who was the last of bronze-chiton wearing Achaeans to go home.

Notes:

This version of the Telemachy seemed to have replaced Telemachus’s visit in Sparta with a visit in Crete. And also, here Idomeneus seemed to be the last to go home, instead of Menelaus and Helen (you know, if we’re excluding Odysseus of course)

There’s something interesting about its connection with the power shift in the Minoan-Mycenaean civilization but I won’t be elaborating here so if you’re intrigued you can just go find a paper (google search will do ngl)

This Cretan Odyssey (at least in some possible versions) seems to involve Idomeneus’s journey with Odysseus together. There seemed to be a stamnos made around 480 BCE where the scene of Idomeneus and Odysseus each hanging under the belly of a ram was depicted—the exact scene where Odysseus encountered the Cyclops

Also, this version…sparks an idea. A headcanon, I’d say. So what if Idomeneus was indeed the last to go home—say, maybe he was indeed exiled from Crete upon his first return and went to somewhere else like Italy, as later traditions have it; then after Odysseus went home Idomeneus attempted his second return and succeeded. Suppose later Telemachus was again sent out, perhaps to find his bestie in Pylos, then to Crete…(why does it sound so much like the plot of a fic I’m writing…)

[lyculuscaelus]

Telesicaä

It’s not just in Dictys Cretensis (which is NOT a reliable source at all), people. Aristotle and Hellanicus of Lesbos have both mentioned this version where Telemachus married Nausicaä (and their son was called Persep(t)olis, which also means “sacker of cities”). I will share the text here and offer a translation as best as I can.

(Left: Sudae Lexicon, entry alpha 2148: Andokides; Right: Eustathius ad Homer, Odyssey, p. 1796)

Left: Andocides, of Athens, orator, one of the ten principal ones, son of Leogoras, a descendant of Telemachus son of Odysseus, and Nausicaä, as Hellanicus said. (Comment: the collection on the left is about how Andocides traced his lineage to Odysseus and Hermes. The entry from Suda mentions Telemachus and Nausicaä, indicating that they had at least a child together.)

Right: One must know from the genealogists that the son of Zeus and Euryodeia was Arceisius, whose son with Chalcomedusa was Laërtes, whose son with Anticleia was Odysseus, whose son with Penelope was Telemachus, whose son with Polycaste daughter of Nestor was Perseptolis, as Hesiod said: So well-girdled Polycaste the youngest daughter of Nestor Neleïades, was joined in love with Telemachus through golden Aphrodite, and gave birth to Persepolis. Although Aristotle in the Ithacan government and Hellanicus said that Telemachus and Nausicaä daughter of Alcinous married and brought forth Perseptolis. Moreover, … (Comment: changed some tenses and added some additional words like “son” “daughter” “was” to fit English better without the change of meaning. The marriage between Telemachus and Polycaste is another popular version as seen in Scholars on the Odyssey, Contest of Homer and Hesiod, etc. “As Hesiod said”…so this is where we learn of that fragment of Hesiod’s Catalogue of Women. Still, Aristotle and Hellanicus provided the version we enjoy—and I suppose Dictys Cretensis took inspiration from it, and not the opposite.)

Additional note: the name Persep(t)olis (Περσέπ(τ)ολις) is literally the reverse order of P(t)oliporthes (Π(τ)ολιπόρθης) or P(t)oliporthus (Π(τ)ολίπορθος): πόρθω or πέρθω means “destroy, sack” and πόλις or πτόλις means “city”. Persep(t)olis is περσέ-π(τ)ολις while P(t)oliporthes is Π(τ)ολι-πόρθης.

[lyculuscaelus]

Greetings, traveler. You’ve stumbled across an antique land, it seems.

This appears to be a side blog of @tahiriveilasolo, and here you shall find posts and reblogs of Greek mythology related stuff—just a simple demand of τάξις. So if there’s anything about Greek mythology in general or EPIC the Musical itself you’d like to rant with me, just come to this blog! I hope you find this little corner of mine interesting :D

Also, favorite writer of all time: Homer

Ah, a little bird told me it’s a good time to introduce myself. So…

Χαῖρε! I’m the epic psycho you’re looking for. (Pun heavily intended) Call me Lyculus or Τέλος (Telos), either is fine! I go by he/they pronouns, 19, aroace. I love physics (cuz why not), music (I play the guitar and violin), and reading (hell yeah), and ofc writing.

I mostly write fanfics or fanpoems for the Epic Cycle. I have quite a few works in progress and some of them are shared on Tumblr already (I’ll make a masterlist when I’m bored and I’ll upload the rest when I’m not lazy).

I happen to have learned some Ancient Greek and a little Latin, so sometimes I’ll go digging. Hope what I find intrigue you! Discussion is always welcome, as long as it doesn’t come to heated debates concerning certain controversial topics!

The gate of asks is always open, so feel free to venture into the land of the ask box! I pose no threat, I assure you :3 (unless you consider angst a threat, that is, cuz I would do that for sure) (tho actually I’m bored as hell so plz scream at me in the ask box you menaces /lh /nf)

Medal Collection:

Survivor of the Circe Saga Stream Crash 2024

Survivor of the Wisdom Saga Stream Strike 2024

Catalogue of Hyperfixations:

Greek mythology (especially obsessed with the Epic Cycle, and the generation before them)

EPIC: the Musical (definitely obsessed)

Hadestown

Aristos: the Musical

Paris: the Musical

Ulysses Dies at Dawn

Star Wars, especially the Expanded Universe (obsessed. I have my main blog for that for a reason), and Andor

Star Trek (love TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY equally; ENT…maybe)

Catalogue of Tags:

Lyculī crustula: my rambles

Lyculī sermōnēs: my long-winded analyses

Lyculī scriptiōnēs: my writings (boy, there’re things in Discord I should really upload here…)

Lyculī commenta: analyses/writings I did in some reblogs

Lyculī quaesītī: my diggings and little discoveries in ancient literature works

Lyculī quaestiōnēs: my replies to asks (so far only appreciation asks)

īrōnīae: some Greek mythology/EPIC memes I made

Also feel free to tag me if you find some posts you think that might interest me (especially Telestratus art/writing I’m begging pleading craving plz bromance ftw)

Hmm…yeah, I think that’s about all. Welcome to the land of my blog then, traveler! Xenia to everyone who visits this realm!

[lyculuscaelus]

Nobody died in this post

Homer: So, let’s play a game. What do you guys think of “a gentle death will come to you ἐξ ἁλός (1), in your ripe old age, with your people prospering around you”? (2)

Aeschylus: Haha a heron’s poop will drop on his old bald head and a spine eaten by the heron will rot the head lmao. (3)

Eugammon of Cyrene: his son by Calypso—or is it Circe?—Telegonus will stab him with a poisoned spear. (4)

Sophocles: I agree with Eugammon but let’s add more Oedipus angst. (5)

“Dictys of Crete”: Me sharing a braincell with Sophocles atm. (6)

Hesiod: Hmm Telegonus and other sons of Odysseus…wait I forgot. Did I actually write this? (7)

“Apollodorus”: Ok but you guys wanna hear more abt this? Let’s see…Eugammon you might be right but it’s his son by Circe. What about this Penelope cheating—hey why are y’all looking at me—someone said this ok? And have you considered Odysseus being exiled by Neoptolemus and dying in Thoas’s kingdom in Aetolia? (8)

Plutarch: Odysseus being exiled? Yeah I’ve considered that. (9)

Pausanias: Penelope sucks? I’ve heard of that too. (10)

Hyginus: I agree with Eugammon. (11)

Servius: Penelope? Didn’t she sleep with Hermes? And Eugammon is right…from a certain point of view. You know what—Odysseus gets turned into a horse later on and dies of old age. (12)

Ptolemy Chennus: Nah, it’s just him getting drugged by someone named “Sea” and getting turned into a horse and dying of old age. (13)

Lycophron: He will be killed by a son of his and die in two different places. His son will kill his daughter-in-law and the sister of his other son will kill his son. That’s what will happen. (14)

Tzetzes: Duris speaks nonsense cuz Pan’s the son of Hermes and another Penelope. I get you but don’t get you, Lycophron—Odysseus dies in two different places bc he gets resurrected by Circe and dies again out of grief seeing the mess in his family. The name’s Cassiphone btw. (15)

Notes

(1) ἐκ (ἐξ) could mean “away from” as in distance, “out of” as in motion, “because of” as in cause…while ἅλς (ἁλός being its singular genitive form) could mean either “sea” or “salt”. Take your pick

(2) Odyssey, book 11, line 134~137 (of the original text)

(3) Aeschylus Fragments, Psychagogoi (fragment 150~152)

(4) Epic Cycle Fragments, Telegony

(5) The Lost Sophocles, Odysseus Acanthoplex

(6) Dictys Cretensis, book 6, section 14~15

(7) Theogony, line 1011~1018; the thing is, a lot of scholars consider these lines as a later addition to Hesiod’s work, possibly by the Romans

(8) Epitome, chapter 7: section 34~37 is about the Telegony; section 38~39 is about “the Mantinean story”; section 40 is about the story of Odysseus’s exile

(9) Quaestiones Graecae, section 14

(10) Description of Greece, book 8 (Arcadia), chapter 12, section 6

(11) Fabulae, section 127

(12) Commentary on Virgil’s Aeneid, book 2, section 44

(13) New History (summary in Photius’s Bibliotheca, section 190)

(14) Alexandra, line 805~811

(15) ad Lycophronem, 772 about Penelope; 805, 808 about Cassiphone