#love the idea that when it comes to the twins; jon takes after daemon in his dislike toward cole

[daemon-is-perfectly-unhinged]

Otto: ...That makes no sense.

Rhaegar: Well, it would if you were smarter.

[syndrossi]

I am reading a webnovel where the main character is pregnant, and it just makes me want to see Aemon and Jocelyn's reactions when they find out she's pregnant with the twins. Depending on the timeline and scenario you go with, it could be very interesting... I hope they come as a nice surprise in any case!

And I know it's a little similar to the scene where Rhea has the twins, but I'm amused thinking about Aemon being introduced to Jon, another dark-haired babe, and thinking his wife's coloring wins again, only for a little Aemon clone (baby Rhaegar!!!) to come out right after. Also, for him to not only have a male heir, but TWO OF THEM in one miraculous day. Three children, just like that.

Will Rhaenys love them immediately? Not sure how old she'll be in this AU, but if she's young enough, she honestly feels like the kind of big sister who would drag her baby siblings around like dolls and declare them as HER babies, tyvm.

I assume Jaehaerys will be pleased as punch in this AU as well... and it gives this AU that extra unique spin of not just princes being born to a second son, but of the actual much awaited future KING being born...

How many AUs do you think we can get you to write where Jon and Rhaegar are actual babies? 🤣

I'm thinking I'll go with the "nearish Daemon's birth" timeline in the Aemon's Sons AU, where either Jocelyn and Alyssa get to commiserate through their pregnancies, or Jocelyn gets pregnant maybe a year later. Either way, you know Jaehaerys is hoping beyond hope that his heir gets a "proper" (male) heir at last, after all this time, and never even thinks there might be two.

I like to think that Baelon has a friendly wager going with Aemon that the baby is going to look like Jocelyn again, and then little Rhaegar to pop out second and then they go "...who wins in this scenario?" (Everybody, of course, but they agree to a tie.) Baelon is holding baby Daemon, of course, informing him that these will be his new best friends, after his brother, of course.

I adore the idea of Rhaenys treating them as her personal dolls for a time, bossily insisting on helping pick out their clothing, rocking them like their nurse / mother do, etc. She loves that one looks like her and one looks like her dad, it's the perfect variety pack! She absolutely insists on picking out their dragon eggs personally. (I planned on going with Aerion and Valerion for their names, but it would also be hilarious if Rhaenys comes up with Rhaegar for, well, Rhaegar because it sounds like her name!)

As soon as the twins are confirmed healthy, I'm certain that Jaehaerys is organizing a celebratory tourney. As you said, your heir having heirs (two of them) is something that makes the entire realm breathe a sigh of relief for stability's sake. And of course all the lords take stock of their own young daughters because they can do the math: there is a grand total of one royal daughter (Rhaenys) that can be matched to any of the four young princes.

Well, relative to Reverberate and Regnal, I expect we'll spend less time on the twins as tiny babies in Aemon's Sons AU, though of course Aemon and Jocelyn will get a few moments before we skip ahead.

[samwpmarleau]

Why do people want Jon to be legitimate so bad? It's almost like they're buying into the stigma that being a bastard is bad and something to fix. And like you said, it's as simple as Rhaegar was married, Lyanna betrothed, and polygamy illegal. He's a bastard. And I really doubt Lyanna would be so naive (well her running away in itself is naive but different context imo) as to believe 'marrying' Rhaegar before her gods would somehow be noble or recognized.

Oh man. I have THINGS TO SAY.

For many people, I think he’s just a special snowflake and they want him to be legitimate so that he’s not “tainted” by bastardy or whatever and he gets to have Everything He’s Always Wanted™.

But also, I think it’s for how much of an identity crisis Jon has had with being a bastard and the irony that this scenario would bring to it. We’re inside Jon’s head so thoroughly and thus are keenly aware of how for his entire life he’s been at odds with his status, especially since he’s not the typical bastard. Catelyn is frigid towards him not because he’s illegitimate, but because Ned brought him home and has raised him alongside Robb, completely ignoring the shame it brings upon his wife.

Yet, Jon’s not the same as Robb — he has the same basic education, but he’s never been in line for Winterfell and by virtue of his very birth there was always an insurmountable divide between him and his siblings. Except for as much as Jon dislikes his place, he abides by it well — even when he’s presented with what he used to dream of (though note it says “later, when he was older, he had been ashamed of those dreams … even to dream otherwise seemed disloyal”), to become an actual Stark, he refuses it because he knows it would be a farce and that Winterfell belongs to Sansa, not him.

It stems too from him having no idea who his mother was. Obviously Ned can’t tell him the truth, but he doesn’t even tell him a lie. Was his mother a whore? A merchant’s daughter? Ashara Dayne? Wylla? Who was she? Jon (understandably) desperately wants her to be a respectable woman, but he’s told absolutely nothing about her so even that is merely a hope.

“Words won’t make your mother a whore. She was what she was, and nothing Toad says can change that. You know, we have men on the Wall whose mothers were whores.”

Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.

The sad thing here is that we know Jon’s mother was beautiful, highborn, and kind, but Jon doesn’t. And he thinks of this constantly:

I will ask him about my mother, he resolved. I am a man now, it is past time he told me. Even if she was a whore, I don’t care, I want to know.

He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name.

Interestingly, his mentions of her fade as the series goes on, as he accepts who he is. He didn’t have any friends in Winterfell save (most of) his family, yet at the Wall he’s surrounded by people he considers not only friends, but brothers. Who actually like him. Then, where once he had thought he could never achieve any high position, he is elected Lord Commander. Sure, that command is of the Night’s Watch and not Winterfell, but the position has been held by many respectable men, and no one ranks higher than he does. He is in charge. People listen to him.

Enter that irony. For five books we have Jon slowly growing into himself, finding love (even if it’s dubious consent love) and friendship and honor and repute despite being a bastard, then we find out his parents were not only married but his mother was a Stark and his father was the Targaryen crown prince. If circumstances were different, Jon would have grown up as third in line to the Iron Throne behind Rhaegar and Aegon. But that could only happen if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, 100% legally, and if they could prove it and/or anyone actually believed them — it’s not enough that they simply had him, because then he could only ever be a legitimized bastard, who may have come before the girls in succession, we don’t really have precedent to say, but may equally have come dead last after Aegon, Viserys, Rhaenys, and Dany (possibly even Rhaella?).

They also focus on the Prince That Was Promised prophecy, and claim that he must be legitimate because then that title wouldn’t fit. This despite the fact that Dany is likely the “Prince” That Was Promised — 

“No one ever looked for a girl,” [Aemon] said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. … Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.”

— and that Jon would still have princely blood even if he were a bastard. Both because Rhaegar lived and died as one, and because if everyone had lived and Jon were legitimized, he would then also be a prince, though not trueborn.

And we mustn’t forget that much of this bullshit has to do with people’s perceptions of Elia as well. Everyone and their grandmother says she would have been fine with it because she’s ~Dornish~ and Dornish people take ~paramours~ and so she wouldn’t care.

Never mind that the last time a Martell married a Targaryen, a Targaryen bastard set off five generations of war, the last of which occurred right on Elia’s doorstep and in which (probably) her uncle Lewyn earned his stripes.

Never mind that Rhaegar was not Dornish and by using the “paramour” excuse he would be disgustingly appropriating a culture to which he doesn’t belong.

Never mind that Rhaegar fathering a bastard, even an un-legitimized one, would present an extreme threat to Elia’s children. She’s Dornish, people are racist as hell towards her people (not to mention ableist towards her specifically), and love the Starks — what happens if Westeros decides one day they’re not into having a half-Dornish king and instead back Jon? What happens if Lyanna isn’t content with her son playing second fiddle?

What happens if Rhaegar decides Jon is a better choice, especially if he changes his mind about Aegon having the song of ice and fire, and either sets Aegon and Rhaenys aside or declares Jon his heir over Aegon? Brandon was betrothed to a Tully, Ned was warded with Robert in the Vale, and Tywin hated Aerys — that’s a ridiculously powerful bloc that could oppose Elia’s children, who would have only Dorne and maybe a handful of other houses in support.

Elia would never be on board with that. I could see her putting up with Rhaegar having a mistress, because almost every guy in this series has one, but not a highborn one, and not having a child on one. And the way he went about it? By abandoning a newly postpartum Elia who nearly died giving birth to an heir who looked exactly like him, running off with the 15-year-old only daughter of a Lord Paramount, not leaving so much as a note or letting Lyanna tell her family she’s all right, disappearing for over a year, not returning even when Brandon and Rickard were killed or when war broke out or when his wife and children were taken hostage, then being so overconfident about winning on the Trident that he lost in gruesome fashion.

He caused not only the downfall of his own house, but crippled the Starks (Brandon, Rickard, and Lyanna all die, then Benjen takes the black shortly after the war) and the Dornish (10,000 spears were extorted from Doran, Elia was raped and murdered, their children were brutally killed, Lewyn was killed in battle, Arthur was killed, and Ashara committed suicide), put the Baratheons and Lannisters in power, and ruined the prophecy as he’d interpreted it.

Had Rhaegar not been so politically braindead, none of that would have happened. So no, Elia would have hated him for that, not signed off on it. Fuck that noise. People often talk about paramours as though every Dornish person takes one and that it’s not cheating, which is simply not true. Oberyn had one, but Oberyn was not married, the occasional additional liaisons he took were not only approved by Ellaria, but they participated in those liaisons together, and he and Ellaria were in a committed relationship for 14-plus years. 

We also really don’t have that many examples of Dornish people taking paramours at all:

Ellaria

Neither she nor Oberyn were married, and they were both completely devoted and faithful to one another.

Old Lord Yronwood’s that Oberyn slept with

Which, incidentally, we don’t know that Yronwood was cheating at all. Perhaps Yronwood was a widower, or his wife was fine with it, or his wife joined in, we don’t know the details.

Lewyn

Hey guess what! He wasn’t married, and was completely faithful to her, exactly like Oberyn.

Daemon Sand

There were rumors that he and Oberyn were lovers (which, gross, on so many levels), but we have only the one mention and no proof. Arianne maybe counts here as well, depending on your definition.

Drinkwater twins

Cletus suggested Quentyn take one of them as a paramour after he was married, but again we don’t know the details of that hypothetical, and Quentyn rejected it anyway.

Many Dornishmen took women of the Rhoynar for paramours; however, presumably that would have been more for purposes of alliance and to permanently join the two races.

Sylvenna Sand

She was a whore in King’s Landing who was the paramour of Essie, who was also a whore, so yet again, no adultery there.

Now, the text often refers to mistresses as paramours, but they are used interchangeably outside of Dorne. Within Dorne, they’re a separate thing. And, as you can see from the above, no one except maybe Lord Yronwood was married.

Rhaegar was. With two small children. Lyanna was betrothed. Their affair was full-blown adultery, none of this “paramour” business. Once more I say: fuck that noise.

Also, like … GRRM once said Rhaegar was a “lovestruck prince” and Barristan said he “loved his lady Lyanna” (neither sentiment is one I believe), but we’re never told anything of Lyanna’s thoughts on the matter. I am baffled as to where people get the idea she would agree to a marriage with Rhaegar.

She wanted out of her betrothal to Robert because he was not faithful, why would she enter into polygamy?? Why would she agree to get pregnant at 15?? She’s compared to Arya constantly — can you see Arya ever doing all of that?? It makes no sense!

Not that they could even get married. The Faith prohibits polygamy, and we have no examples of people in the North (save beyond the Wall, which is not in the Seven Kingdoms) ever having polygamous marriages either. So even if there were some kind of “ceremony,” it would never hold up.

Anyway. People are dumb.

[syndrossi]

Imagine au where in the Resonant universe Daemon is transported back 8 years when the twins are about to be born. What will he do? (Other than negotiate to conceal their origins). It's clear that at first he'll be into it out of sheer happiness and won't move away from them. Will he stay in Runestone or move to the capital? Will he go to war again, know how long it will take? Will he still seek Viserys' attention or will he pull away from him and focus entirely on his sons? What will he do about the future threat of Volantis? What names would he give them?

That's an interesting twist. I've considered the "AU where Rhea tells Daemon about the twins," but one where he has foreknowledge of the threat Volantis poses to them in the future (and how to avoid getting banished) hadn't occurred to me.

Rhea would have a lot more bargaining power here if Daemon wants her to claim them as her own, so she probably negotiates them being at least part-time at Runestone, and honestly, he probably feels safer with that arrangement. Rhea has the coin/resources for round-the-clock knight protection if he discloses that word of a threat from Essos/Volantis had reached him through "sources," while lacking Viserys's authority to take them away from him. He goes with them everywhere, so he'll be at Runestone when they're there.

The question arises of how to find their hatchlings' eggs. I think the ultimate action Daemon would try to take is to secure the Master of Whisperers position on the small council so he can build up contacts/spies throughout Essos but particularly Volantis.

He absolutely hunts down Crayne and kills him. Doesn't care that the man hasn't done anything yet--that's the only thing that earns him a clean death here.

Hostile AS FUCK to Allard, who has no idea why Rhea's husband hates him so much.

Names are interesting. I think he'd keep Rhaegar as Rhaegar even if he'd like the symmetry of naming them both after his father and uncle, to honor his son's original choice. He'd choose Baelon for Jon because fair's fair, he never chose a Targaryen name for himself!

Daemon would want the boys to have their due as princes of the realm, and he loves to show off his babies, so he would absolutely have a formal presentation at court for them. I could see Viserys being so delighted at the birth of twins that he's tempted to throw a tourney (while Otto's like...your own wife is currently pregnant, where's the tourney for THAT upcoming child??).

The Runestone dragon enclosure gets a LOT more use. If it's early enough, Daemon retreats with Rhea and Elys to the Royce's summer retreat (even though it's winter), super excited/anxious about the birth. I think those months might be what shift Rhea's opinion of Daemon, and certainly his behavior toward the twins after! Daemon's sudden maturity vs before as a whole probably comes as a shock to her.

The matter of the Stepstones is a thorny one, because it does need to be dealt with. Perhaps he convinces Rhaenys to join the effort, in the hopes of ending it sooner with double dragons. (He also has some plans in the current time for ending the war quickly that he could implement here, with Viserys's support, which he would be much more motivated to obtain.) Achieving a quick, decisive victory and getting the accolades of presenting the crown to Viserys without his reckless escapade with Rhaenyra, since this would be two years earlier and he knows better now, would be a nice boost to his cred with Viserys.

Ultimately, I think he's a bit wary of Viserys's interest, but since Viserys knows nothing about any special qualities, over time Daemon relaxes because his brother is behaving more like the doting uncle he'd expected him to be.

Other than that, Daemon treasures every day and memory with them. It's hard for him at first to overcome his resentment of Rhea for hiding them from him originally, but I think the icy tolerance mellows into a friendly partnership eventually. As I mentioned above, Daemon wins a lot of points with Rhea for being so fully devoted to the babies.

(The twins wake up earlier here, since I couldn't bear to "take" Daemon's sons from him when they're seven, which means the Volantis shenanigans get moved up in response, since whoever brought them here would know they've arrived. On the bright side, it means the hatchling eggs are on the way! On the not so bright side, that means baby/toddler kidnapping schemes are as well!)

[syndrossi]

คุณคิดว่าจะเป็นอย่างไรหากฝาแฝดทั้งสองเกิดมาเป็นลูกของรีอา แต่หลังจากที่เธอเสียชีวิต เดมอนก็แต่งงานกับเรอานิรา หลังจากนั้นพวกเขาก็มีเจซ ลุค และจอฟฟ์ ทำให้พวกเขากลาย���ป็นพี่น้องแท้ ๆ (ลูกของเดมอนและเรอานิรา) กับฝาแฝดทั้งสอง พูดตามตรง ฉันอยากเห็นเรื่องราวที่พี่น้องทั้งสองเติบโตและเรียนรู้ร่วมกัน รวมถึงลุงและป้า (เอจอน เอมอนด์ เฮเลน่า และเดรอน)🥺

The timing would be tricky to work out. I suppose the twins could have been conceived at the same time as in Resonant canon, aka when Daemon is exiled back to Runestone for the "Heir for a Day" incident.

From there, a lot depends. If the twins are Rhea's and she doesn't try to hide it, then Daemon is of course going to rush back to Runestone after he learns of their birth. I'm not sure if he goes back to the Stepstones after that. Daemon's thing at this age is that he wants to be Viserys's heir. With two sons of his own and a shiny new "I'm a father and very responsible now, you can trust me" aura, maybe he can try to convince Viserys to put him back into the succession.

It's probably not gonna happen, but he tries. If that fails, then perhaps he goes back to the Stepstones, splitting time between the war and visiting his sons. Let's say the Spring Fever that took Elys's life instead takes Rhea's, two years later, right on the heels of victory in the Stepstones.

Now Daemon is a bachelor, a father, and victorious in battle. He can make a much better case for marrying Rhaenyra, who is still in the process of rejecting every suitor paraded in front of her. Viserys is still having Otto whispering in his ear about how Daemon can't be trusted, but his brother is so sweet with his young twins. Perhaps he allows the match. Perhaps fire-proof shenanigans occur, and Viserys has the prophecy wake-up call and suddenly a match between Daemon and Rhaenyra seems like the most important thing in the world.

Seventeen or eighteen-year-old Rhaenyra, depending on how long the drawn-out search for a husband has been, marries Daemon, though Viserys makes it clear that any children of Rhaenyra's blood come before Daemon and the twins.

At that point, I don't think it's really Jace, Luke, Joff who are born. It's not like the twins, where their personalities are transferred from teenagers, and Daemon strikes me as more of a traditionalist, as names go. (I've always wondered if Jacaerys and Lucerys were Velaryon names?) So Jon and Rhaegar are Baelon and Aemon, and then they probably go with the original canon ordering of their later children with Aegon and Viserys. I have no idea what Daemon and Rhaenyra would go for in a fifth son. Daemon didn't especially love his grandfather, so probably not Jaehaerys. Perhaps an older ancestor, like Gaemon or Aenar. Or maybe they finally get to have their Visenya and have a daughter instead.

It's not a great scenario for Otto, who doesn't have "look! illegitimate! the crown princess is an oathbreaker and a strumpet!" to fall back on for his Aegon's claim. Plus Daemon and Rhaenyra have a ton of dragons between them and their five children. It's possible he gives up (not likely, but technically possible) and everyone grows up in harmony.

But I expect in that case, the Free Cities are gonna start trying to start beef between Targaryen factions. Perhaps they try something with the Velaryons, since Laenor was spurned by Rhaenyra and Laena was trapped in her Sealord's son marriage.